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Old 29-03-2023, 01:28 PM #51
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Looks like alot of us Slim and Liam are now partyless, wonder what the turn out will be at the next GE
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Old 29-03-2023, 01:46 PM #52
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Originally Posted by Cherie View Post
Looks like alot of us Slim and Liam are now partyless, wonder what the turn out will be at the next GE
I guess you'll either vote for the least-bad option, or watch the Tories have another win without doing anything about it?
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Old 29-03-2023, 02:05 PM #53
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Originally Posted by Cherie View Post
Looks like alot of us Slim and Liam are now partyless, wonder what the turn out will be at the next GE
Oh no that’s where we differ, I’ll still be voting for Labour, albeit begrudgingly, in the current state of the country punishing the people that have spent the past 13 years systematically destroying this country is the the priority, ideologically? Yes, politically homeless
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Old 29-03-2023, 02:18 PM #54
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Oh no that’s where we differ, I’ll still be voting for Labour, albeit begrudgingly, in the current state of the country punishing the people that have spent the past 13 years systematically destroying this country is the the priority, ideologically? Yes, politically homeless
Oh okay
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Old 29-03-2023, 02:21 PM #55
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i will vote to get the tories out of office. Another term from them would be an absolute disaster. Labour will just be finding their feet, so there is much less chance of damage from them
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Old 29-03-2023, 03:09 PM #56
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Originally Posted by Oliver_W View Post
I guess you'll either vote for the least-bad option, or watch the Tories have another win without doing anything about it?
I'd happily watch the tories at this point, because a starmer government will be virtually the same thing as he's every bit as duplicitous as Johnson. Watching the 2 leaders debate which is the worst thing ever between kids in parks or cannabis smoke, as the country is on it's arse, is pandering to the very worst aspects of this country.

Nothing positive is coming from either of these two parties, Keir is already pushing growth as his pledge, but that's the exact same trickle down model as the other lot, and will only lead to more destruction of communities and cuts, but he will pretend it's sensible and grown up. The country needs investment not more pandering to capital and corporations.

I hope jeremy grows a massive pair and starts his own party, because the parties unrestrained are going to destroy the country even more. A corbyn socialist party wiould take a lot of voters away from labour, and unless Keir has something progressive to offer them in his manifesto, his certain election victory would suddenly be in very real jeopardy.
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Old 29-03-2023, 03:26 PM #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeysteele View Post
Hello Slim.
I get your anger at Starmer, as I have it too.
I also get you feel now Labour has failed you and likely will in government too.

That I don't agree on.
I still believe a better degree of fairness and compassion towards vulnerable plusvsi k and disabled will be more forthcoming from Labour than this heartless extreme bunch in now.

I still think the NHS will be better under Labour too.

So I can stick with them for those issues only if that's all they even had.

Immaterial of what the motion contained, my own main gripe with Corbyn is that he has NEVER accepted in full the Equalities commision conclusions AND directives given to deal with antisemetic issues.
He hasn't, and that's sadly for all and for him a fact.

I abhor antisemetism, I was personally got at on here with antisemitic inferences despite from my first understanding what it was, standing against it all my life.

There's NO real democracy in Parties now.
It's all about control.
That's why I now support PR.
It won't solve everything but it should make all Parties more accountable to themselves and the Country.

It's not a real democracy where a Party can get under 44% of the votes cast and get around 56/57% of the seats.
So having complete power over all voters and the Country.

Sunak hasn't made really big inroads to the best PM role.
Starmer never had a big lead over him.
The gap has narrowed from a single figure of 9 points ahead for Starmer to a 3 point lead for Starmer.
All Parties now have the worst possible leaders they could.
Polls change.
Plus figures and statistics can be made to say whatever one or the other want them too.

At present and I don't believe the really high leads for Labour myself.
All that seems to be is Sunak rates far higher than his Party.
While Starmer rates a bit lower than his Party.
They are meaningless though really.

I don't think IF Labour win the next election that it will be a one term situation.
Because Starmer has said PR is not for policy in THIS election.
So I can see him adopting it in the next election's manifesto.

That will unite every other Party in Westminster except the Cons.
I'm willing to wait and see and have that change without too much radical policy changes.
Blair made overtures to PR before he was PM.
He dumped it when he got a 179 overall majority.
Then he squandered a 160+majority after 2001.

Had he brought in PR for 2005.
We may never have had this Con led shambles from 2010, nor Brexit either.

I will use my time in Labour to fight with other members for the protection of the NHS and saving it.
For more compassion to the vulnerable and sick and disabled.

Also to fight for PR too to really shake up politics completely.
I think for the better.
With Parties having to work more closely together.

That's what I'll judge Labour on if it wins power.
Because none of those things will EVER come from this heartless Con party which has just got more power mad and extreme since 2010.

Yes too.
I think the 1945 to 1951 government is more like one needed now.
Definitely.
I'd hoped for that, however it's not at present forthcoming so that's another issue to strive for over the next 5 to 7 years.
In light of whatever the situation in the UK is during that time.

I'm not an admirer of Corbyn though.
His policies yes.
However he too could have adopted PR.
He says he believes in it, his then shadow Chancellor John McDonnell wanted it.
Corbyn threw it out too sadly.
He could have put the Lib Dems in a very difficult position had he adopted in in the 2019 manifesto.

That's my aim from my interest in politics and as a Labour party member.
Strive for PR, see more compassion to the vulnerable, sick and disabled and to build up again the NHS.
None of which the Cons will do or want to do even.

PR however only come from Labour adopting it as policy.
One thing is 100% sure.
The Cons never, EVER will adopt PR.
Because they would never have absolute power again and they know it.
Hope you're having a good day.

That is complete pie in the sky, unless Starmer is hitting us with the ol' double bluff. There is nothing progressive about the man, and all the things you say you want, are the things that people have been purged out of the party for wanting, so I wouldn't debate any one within reach of Starmers ear if I were you, otherwise you might get one of those "you're being investigated" emails, they've been sending out with increasing regularity.
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Old 30-03-2023, 07:52 AM #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper View Post
Hope you're having a good day.

That is complete pie in the sky, unless Starmer is hitting us with the ol' double bluff. There is nothing progressive about the man, and all the things you say you want, are the things that people have been purged out of the party for wanting, so I wouldn't debate any one within reach of Starmers ear if I were you, otherwise you might get one of those "you're being investigated" emails, they've been sending out with increasing regularity.

Really Slim.
That's an overexaggeration.
I don't see that scenario you're saying at all.

Under Corbyn's leadership there were issues too with candidacy and members.
Which equally was overexaggerrated too.

Labour has a leader you don't like now that's clear.
I don't like him either.
I haven't liked the last 3 Labour leaders but I haven't give up on the party.

I still believe and there's NO reason to think otherwise, that Labour will more protect the most vulnerable, sick and disabled and THAT is an issue which is extremely important to me.
For many years now I've supported and canvassed for better treatment of the sick and disabled after the humiliating and degrading criteria brought in of the testing of them by this government.
Also supported by the Lib Dems in the coalition too.
Disgraceful.

The NHS too has always been important to me.
It's why I voted against the Cons with my first election vote in 2010.
The NHS has been decimated by this Con government.and so again, I believe Labour will need to reform it now in light of that but I firmly believe Labour will save it and protect it.
As they did up to 2010.

So I don't see this awful Labour you do.
So I won't be leaving it yet.
Just because it's got a leader I don't like.

It's not pie in the sky what I listed in my post.
The party has voted overwhelmingly for PR as Labour policy.
I'm not happy Starmer has ruled that out but he's stated it's not a policy for to put forward in the next election.
So I can hold onto the feeling he's looking at a 2nd term.
Which could contain very different policies.
So PR is not pie in the sky.
It does look like Labour will be the main Party to adopt it as policy hopefully in the manifesto of the election after the next one.
I can accept that.

Neither is the better treatment of the vulnerable and sick and disabled just pie in the sky.
Nor is the need to get these current Cons away from the NHS.

So I will support again Labour because as even bots said.
Another term of the Cons would be disastrous.
He is dead right and I'm never going to do anything to even just risk another term of this heartless Con government.
No way.

Certainly never going to risk that because Labour has a useless leader.

They've all been useless since Blair.
From Brown to Corbyn Labour had 4, yes 4 election defeats.
It was bad enough in 2015 under Miliband.
However in 2019 it was a massive rout as to seats.
Even worse than 1983 when the opposition votes were split between Labour and the SDP/LIB Alliance.

Starmer is an awful leader, then again I don't think Labour has had a good one since John Smith.
Plus in my view all the Parties now have a bad leader.
So the choice is dire anyhow as to leadership.

Wishing you well Slim.
I had a fairly good day yesterday thank you.
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Old 30-03-2023, 12:29 PM #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeysteele View Post
Really Slim.
That's an overexaggeration.
I don't see that scenario you're saying at all.

Under Corbyn's leadership there were issues too with candidacy and members.
Which equally was overexaggerrated too.

Labour has a leader you don't like now that's clear.
I don't like him either.
I haven't liked the last 3 Labour leaders but I haven't give up on the party.

I still believe and there's NO reason to think otherwise, that Labour will more protect the most vulnerable, sick and disabled and THAT is an issue which is extremely important to me.
For many years now I've supported and canvassed for better treatment of the sick and disabled after the humiliating and degrading criteria brought in of the testing of them by this government.
Also supported by the Lib Dems in the coalition too.
Disgraceful.

The NHS too has always been important to me.
It's why I voted against the Cons with my first election vote in 2010.
The NHS has been decimated by this Con government.and so again, I believe Labour will need to reform it now in light of that but I firmly believe Labour will save it and protect it.
As they did up to 2010.

So I don't see this awful Labour you do.
So I won't be leaving it yet.
Just because it's got a leader I don't like.

It's not pie in the sky what I listed in my post.
The party has voted overwhelmingly for PR as Labour policy.
I'm not happy Starmer has ruled that out but he's stated it's not a policy for to put forward in the next election.
So I can hold onto the feeling he's looking at a 2nd term.
Which could contain very different policies.
So PR is not pie in the sky.
It does look like Labour will be the main Party to adopt it as policy hopefully in the manifesto of the election after the next one.
I can accept that.

Neither is the better treatment of the vulnerable and sick and disabled just pie in the sky.
Nor is the need to get these current Cons away from the NHS.

So I will support again Labour because as even bots said.
Another term of the Cons would be disastrous.
He is dead right and I'm never going to do anything to even just risk another term of this heartless Con government.
No way.

Certainly never going to risk that because Labour has a useless leader.

They've all been useless since Blair.
From Brown to Corbyn Labour had 4, yes 4 election defeats.
It was bad enough in 2015 under Miliband.
However in 2019 it was a massive rout as to seats.
Even worse than 1983 when the opposition votes were split between Labour and the SDP/LIB Alliance.

Starmer is an awful leader, then again I don't think Labour has had a good one since John Smith.
Plus in my view all the Parties now have a bad leader.
So the choice is dire anyhow as to leadership.

Wishing you well Slim.
I had a fairly good day yesterday thank you.
As always, Joey, only time will tell which of us is correct, but for what it's worth, I genuinely hope it's you.

I'm not leaving labour behind, they've said they don't want the likes of me any more, and regardless of how each of us thinks, opposing views have never been unwelcome in the party before now.
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Old 30-03-2023, 12:31 PM #60
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Jeremy Corbyn
needs to stand as a Independent,

Or Take Starmer and the NEC
to court.


Which one
Slim?
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Old 30-03-2023, 12:37 PM #61
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Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper View Post
As always, Joey, only time will tell which of us is correct, but for what it's worth, I genuinely hope it's you.

I'm not leaving labour behind, they've said they don't want the likes of me any more, and regardless of how each of us thinks, opposing views have never been unwelcome in the party before now.
the lib dems just said that those that don't support gender reform are not welcome in their party, before the last election, Boris said anyone not supporting brexit was not welcome in the conservative party

Whatever happened to being inclusive. It's more exclusive now than i can ever recall from the last 50 years
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Old 30-03-2023, 12:37 PM #62
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Originally Posted by arista View Post
Jeremy Corbyn
needs to stand as a Independent,

Or Take Starmer and the NEC
to court.


Which one
Slim?
Even to this day, Jeremy is still a loyal labour man, so I fear he will retire. If I was advising him, I'd tell him to bin them all off, and start up a Socialist party, and put the election in doubt for Starmer, because the left is screaming out for an alternative, and 66% of those polled in the uk recently said they'd like a 33rd party to come and challenge bothe labour and the tories.

If Jeremy stands as an independent he wins really easily
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Old 30-03-2023, 12:48 PM #63
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the lib dems just said that those that don't support gender reform are not welcome in their party, before the last election, Boris said anyone not supporting brexit was not welcome in the conservative party

Whatever happened to being inclusive. It's more exclusive now than i can ever recall from the last 50 years
How I see it, is we've almost become more presidential in our elections, with them being about the personalities of the leaders. Jeremy had a really inclusive labour party, which ultimately ended up hurting him more than helping him, as the right of his party actively sabotaged winnable seats to hurt him.

At least in the US, they really are about the personalities of the leaders, but we have a different system here, so this has killed the inclusitivity and plurality in the parties. There is no head over there to choose which candidates stand for which seats, but here they can be used and bargained for, in order to secure blind loyalty (see nads over Boris), and nor do we have the lords, where more blind loyalty can see them rewarded for life, not just 4-8 years.
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Old 30-03-2023, 01:21 PM #64
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Even to this day, Jeremy is still a loyal labour man, so I fear he will retire. If I was advising him, I'd tell him to bin them all off, and start up a Socialist party, and put the election in doubt for Starmer, because the left is screaming out for an alternative, and 66% of those polled in the uk recently said they'd like a 33rd party to come and challenge bothe labour and the tories.

If Jeremy stands as an independent he wins really easily

No, he does not want to Retire
the local people need him
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Old 30-03-2023, 01:24 PM #65
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he can stand as independent labour if he wants, plenty have done it in the past
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Old 30-03-2023, 01:33 PM #66
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No, he does not want to Retire
the local people need him
The whole goddamn country needed him.

Then he will either stand as an independent, join the greens, or start his own party.

My preference would be for him to start his own,party, which would then force the labour party back to the left in order to take some of the voters back.
200k people joined the labour party because of Jeremy, and have since left, so there is a bloc of voters that could turn the election (including those that have stayed) if Jeremy did that.

Joining the greens would be really interesting, as he could transform them into a relevant party over night.
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Old 30-03-2023, 01:38 PM #67
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He had a chance Slim
December 2019 General Election
he failed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_U...neral_election

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Old 30-03-2023, 02:00 PM #68
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He had a chance Slim
December 2019 General Election
he failed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_U...neral_election
Yes, because snakes in his own party sabotaged him and did everything they could to get Boris elected, the very same people that are now eternally outraged at the government we got because they didn’t an actual progressive government
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Old 30-03-2023, 02:03 PM #69
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Yes, because snakes in his own party sabotaged him and did everything they could to get Boris elected, the very same people that are now eternally outraged at the government we got because they didn’t an actual progressive government

Snakes
the New Labour Gang


For Sure
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Old 30-03-2023, 02:07 PM #70
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and 66% of those polled in the uk recently said they'd like a 33rd party to come and challenge bothe labour and the tories.
Strangely specific, I didn't even know there were 32 parties

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If Jeremy stands as an independent he wins really easily
Depends if his constituents votes for the man or the party?
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Old 30-03-2023, 03:45 PM #71
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I personally think Corbyn should stand as Independent Labour.
My own guess is he'd win.
So then continue as an MP with an even greater freedom to speak out on all and anything he likes and how.

If we had PR.
Then starting a new Party would have been a good option too however new Parties under this discredited electoral system don't fare well.
The Greens get 5% + in elections and only have the solitary 1 seat.
First past the post is not welcoming or generous to new Parties.
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Old 30-03-2023, 03:51 PM #72
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There's no real way to implement PR while maintaining a Parliamentary system, in which we vote for who we want to represent our area in the Commons. If the percentage of the overall population was allocated per-seat, there'd be no way to ensure we'd get an MP for the party for whom we voted.
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Old 30-03-2023, 04:42 PM #73
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Originally Posted by Oliver_W View Post
Strangely specific, I didn't even know there were 32 parties


Depends if his constituents votes for the man or the party?
What? You don't know about the other 30 political parties? Well that's definitely on you and definitely not my error, no siree

His constituents love him, because he does the job he is paid to do - he works in local homelessness centres, he's in the community fixing problems and being visible and available. He got 73% of the vote last time out, and any person Keir stands against him will probably be some corporate CEO type.Especially if we look at what he's been doing in Leicester recently.
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Old 30-03-2023, 05:06 PM #74
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Originally Posted by Oliver_W View Post
There's no real way to implement PR while maintaining a Parliamentary system, in which we vote for who we want to represent our area in the Commons. If the percentage of the overall population was allocated per-seat, there'd be no way to ensure we'd get an MP for the party for whom we voted.
The Labour conference passed overwhelmingly to adopt PR.
There's only ONE Party in Westminster who wouldn't have it and that's the Cons.

PR is now used in Mayoral elections, police and crime commissioner elections, the N Ireland assembly, the Welsh parliament AND the Scottish parliament.

There are many forms of PR and it wouldn't be impossible to retain the more constituency link to MP.

The difference would be people voting and for the over 25% who never vote in elections, of whom would be likely more to vote in PR, would then the difference would mean they not only believed but would know, their votes really counted and that NO Party could get just over 40% of the votes but get power with overall majorities of 80.
That's the real scandal and should be an affront to UK real democracy.
First past the post encourages extreme governments it doesn't prevent them.

First past the post was fine when the 2 main parties got over 85%+ of votes cast between them.
Now they get on or under 75% is ridiculous for one to get absolute power.

Labour got around 36% of votes in 2005, the Cons got just over 32%
Yet Labour got an overall majority of 68.
That's obscene.

Last edited by joeysteele; 30-03-2023 at 05:08 PM.
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Old 30-03-2023, 05:14 PM #75
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Joke of a party keeps joking. Not the same as tories, though...



Good news though, because they are going to use a windfall tax on energy companies to freeze your council tax for a year, whilst the energy oligarchy make off with record profits at voters expense.
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