[arista]

Image of Angry Nurses
with a few Doctors


Live Debate Now on LBC


[Junior doctors, who are set to be
balloted on strike action in early January,
are demanding a pay rise of nothing less
than 26 per cent.]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...ody-think.html


Talk of Emergency Care
halted from day 1


3 Days of Solid Strike being talked about
for Monday

[Livia]

Just what the NHS needs.... how long is the public going to put up with this, I wonder?

No one out in the street clapping for them now, I see.

[Soldier Boy]

Originally Posted by Livia

Just what the NHS needs.... how long is the public going to put up with this, I wonder?

No one out in the street clapping for them now, I see.

The NHS is done. Its finished. The Tories have successfully snuffed it out, these strikes are nothing more than a death rattle. You will not get decent care in the UK any more - not state funded, and not private... The staff for both will be replaced by cheap imported labour and unskilled/untrained near-minimum-wage domestic staff. Its more or less that simple.

They'll probably try to blame the ex-staff but most of those will have moved on, either to work elsewhere in the world or to a different career.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Healthcare spending in the United Kingdom (UK) as a share of the gross domestic product
(GDP) has increased since 1990, where it was 5.1 percent. By 2021, healthcare
expenditure in the UK amounted to 11.9 percent of the GDP. Graph in link


https://www.statista.com/statistics/...nited-kingdom/

[Denver]

Originally Posted by Livia

Just what the NHS needs.... how long is the public going to put up with this, I wonder?

No one out in the street clapping for them now, I see.

How is it that the wages of Doctors and Nurses are much lower then they were 30 years ago but politicians wages are at their highest ever level.

[bitontheslide]

if the striking workers asked for reasonable increases there would be greater public support for them.

Lets not forget it was Rishi that tried to increase NI to pump more money into the NHS, everyone complained and Truss scrapped it

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by denver

how is it that the wages of doctors and nurses are much lower then they were 30 years ago but politicians wages are at their highest ever level.

im pretty sure a doctor 30 years ago did not earn more than one today

[Kazanne]

its not done at all,IF the fat cats were to use the money given in the proper manner ,there would be better services .If monies were applied to the departments that need them.,so much for using the phase its a vocation,well its obviously not its all about money,no denying most do a great job,but I know from a friend whos wife is a nurse,they are not on their uppers as some would have us believe,some things need to be changed of course, but imo,all these strikes are just to bring the government down and they probably will,in a way thats my hope,lets see others do it better,it will be interesting to see how others deal with the situation today.Seems everyone has an answer but nothing is applied.

[Denver]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

im pretty sure a doctor 30 years ago did not earn more than one today

Their wages didn't rise with inflation

[Soldier Boy]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

im pretty sure a doctor 30 years ago did not earn more than one today

Junior doctors average salary in 1990 adjusted for inflation was about Ł45k, average junior doctors salary in 2023 is about Ł35k.

Consultants average salary for 1990 adjusted for inflation is Ł105000. Actual consultants average in 2023 is Ł80000.

Youre just... Not correct on this one. The numbers are all googlable.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

Junior doctors average salary in 1990 adjusted for inflation was about Ł45k, average junior doctors salary in 2023 is about Ł35k.

Consultants average salary for 1990 adjusted for inflation is Ł105000. Actual consultants average in 2023 is Ł80000.

Youre just... Not correct on this one. The numbers are all googlable.

Adam made no mention of inflation in his post and in his claim

so my statement was correct

[joeysteele]

26% is obviously not possible.

However much better is needed.
I 100% support the Doctors.

This lot over the last going on 13 years now of which 5 had the full support of Lib Dems, have FAILED miserably the NHS and the staff in it.

A disgrace.

[Soldier Boy]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Adam made no mention of inflation in his post and in his claim

so my statement was correct

Then it's also correct to say that I get paid significantly more each month than victorian-era aristocracy. I'm rich! . Finally!

[bitontheslide]

there are very few that have seen real increases in earnings over the last 20 years. Everything has been brought to a head by the obscenity that has been the conservative government over the last couple of years and it's now been topped off by the tories pandering to brexit that has crippled us when combined with the cost of living crisis. Not forgetting the corruption on a massive scale overseen by the conservatives.

That said, the strikers know their pay demands are not reasonable, and if that costs lives, it's going to go down very badly

[Denver]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

there are very few that have seen real increases in earnings over the last 20 years. Everything has been brought to a head by the obscenity that has been the conservative government over the last couple of years and it's now been topped off by the tories pandering to brexit that has crippled us when combined with the cost of living crisis. Not forgetting the corruption on a massive scale overseen by the conservatives.

That said, the strikers know their pay demands are not reasonable, and if that costs lives, it's going to go down very badly

They set their demands high but would settle for less if a reasonable offer was on the table, there would no point setting the amount and the lowest as that works in the government favour

[Soldier Boy]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

there are very few that have seen real increases in earnings over the last 20 years. Everything has been brought to a head by the obscenity that has been the conservative government over the last couple of years and it's now been topped off by the tories pandering to brexit that has crippled us when combined with the cost of living crisis. Not forgetting the corruption on a massive scale overseen by the conservatives.

That said, the strikers know their pay demands are not reasonable, and if that costs lives, it's going to go down very badly

They've seen large real terms pay cuts, never mind pay increases, that's the whole point.

And strike pay demands are not supposed to be reasonable - they're supposed to be a barter system where strikers ask for the world, get offered a pittance, refuse it, then get a reasonable offer which they accept. That's literally how strike action works. The demand is a negotiation stance. I don't know if people aren't aware of that, or simply pretend not to be.

[Soldier Boy]

Also it will cost lives, and refusing to pay them more will and probably already has cost lives. The refusal to negotiate is going to collapse the NHS and that's going to cost so many lives it'll make any lives lost to this seem like small change.

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

They've seen large real terms pay cuts, never mind pay increases, that's the whole point.

And strike pay demands are not supposed to be reasonable - they're supposed to be a barter system where strikers ask for the world, get offered a pittance, refuse it, then get a reasonable offer which they accept. That's literally how strike action works. The demand is a negotiation stance. I don't know if people aren't aware of that, or simply pretend not to be.

it's not a negotiating tactic because they just get told to **** off.

[The Slim Reaper]

I remember Corbyn warning about what was going to happen to the NHS, and he was smeared as promoting Russian disinformation. Good old 2019.

[Soldier Boy]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

it's not a negotiating tactic because they just get told to **** off.

Yes because the Tories don't want to negotiate, they want the NHS to collapse. It's barely even concealed at this point.

They're trying to make strike action illegal, the dystopian vibes are sadly very real.

[Livia]

No one's trying to make strike action illegal. They want to ensure that certain industries have to provide a basic cover during strike action. Sounds pretty reasonable to me.

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

Yes because the Tories don't want to negotiate, they want the NHS to collapse. It's barely even concealed at this point.

They're trying to make strike action illegal, the dystopian vibes are sadly very real.

i also have to disagree with you that the NHS is near collapse and I say that from personal experience. With an organisation as large as the NHS, it's very easy to cherry pick areas that are stretched and forget about the areas doing a stellar job

[Soldier Boy]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

i also have to disagree with you that the NHS is near collapse and I say that from personal experience. With an organisation as large as the NHS, it's very easy to cherry pick areas that are stretched and forget about the areas doing a stellar job

Is the personal experience anecdotally as a patient? Because I'm well aware that the staff are working themselves to the bone to make sure that the patient experience remains decent in the vast majority of cases.

Behind the curtain it's on an absolute knife-edge. You don't have to take my word for it but I dunno... Maybe keep it in the back of your mind so that it's less shocking when it happens. It's not going to survive this in its current form. And the Tory reforms (deskilling, bulking on lesser trained and inexperienced low wage staff) that come afterwards are going to severely degrade the quality of healthcare in the UK.

The vague chance it has is if it can cling on until a government change - but realistically I know that England is never going to vote the Tories out of power either.

[bitontheslide]

i was in the ICU having suffered a stroke and have spent the last 10 months regularly visiting as an out patient across 3 different hospitals in the area. So I've had a good chance to form an opinion

[Soldier Boy]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

i was in the ICU having suffered a stroke and have spent the last 10 months regularly visiting as an out patient across 3 different hospitals in the area. So I've had a good chance to form an opinion

Sorry to hear that BOTS, I hope thing are going well. Like I said the staff are incredible and taking the world on their shoulders right now, part of the reason for the strikes of course is about ensuring that these professions remain attractive to good quality staff, not just the salaries of the current staff. Critical care services (not A&E unfortunately, but once triaged) especially are doing well all things considered.

The structural elements holding it all together are falling apart. They're losing staff by the day quicker than they can recruit, and even if that wasn't the case, an NQN or first year junior doctor is no replacement for a nurse with a decade of experience or a burnt out registrar. There really are looming issues that the current government has shown no inclination to tackle... In fact a pointed aversion to tackling... So I just don't think they're going to be resolved.