[lily.]

It has been suggested that a lot of people today lack basic literacy skills.

Some say this is due to overuse of the internet and mobile phones.

Discuss...

[Lauren]

I had to discuss this in my English Language exam, but since I forgot to revise amelioration/pejoration I skimmed around the subject enormously.

Personally, although I don't follow the prescriptivist line of argument (I don't think the English language is strict and should be followed and remain the same constantly) - I definitely find it to be an important and integral part of our society. Without sufficient communication skills in which one can get their point across to another, I don't see what the point of society is.

Before Samuel Jonhson wrote the dictionary the UK was in a state of confusion whereby nobody travelled - not because they didn't have the means to do so - but because each village spoke an almost different non-standardised version of English, thus proving that it's important.
Er, I appear to have gone into a history lesson... now where was I...

My teacher was telling me about how she has some students whom write essays in text speech and when questioned about it, actually believe it's correct grammar! (Now that, I find to be shocking).
I don't really care if people don't have perfect grammar or spelling (I certainly don't) - but when it gets to the point where people aren't quite sure what is correct and what isn't - we begin to see we're losing communication skills.

I can imagine myself ending up writing "lyk this" if only if it wasn't for the fact that I'm too lazy to begin typing in "internet language". Also, have always used predicted text on my phone so I never write like "ur" and "u" etc.

Edit: My post is too long and boring.. read this little edit bit instead. "I think English Language is important, innit" and that should sum up my post.

[spacebandit]

Its not a suggestion, it is a hard fact.

How many times have you seen "of" used instead on "have" ?

Young people cannot spell, I do not mean the odd typo, everyone does that I mean a fundamental inability to spell correctly and to construct proper sentences.

I do not blame them, I blame our education system, it has been tinkered with over the years, but only to the point where it is the equivalent to using an elastoplast on a brain tumour.

A complete overhaul is needed, I mean no-one any offense over this - but there is such a large proportion of the under 25's who lack basic literacy and numeracy skills that it is shocking.

Qualifications are no longer worth what they were twenty years ago, ask any employer....

[Lauren]

I think the problems started when Blair introduced the social exclusion policy which brought about the introduction of vocational subjects replacing core subjects.

Also, Conservatives didn't help the matter (yes I did just say that) by introducing league tables which meant that pre-value-added stage schools were competing for statistics rather than actual knowledge. This meant many schools introduced BTEC diplomas instead of GCSEs (and no offence meant here, but coursework/classwork-based grades are easier to attain than actual examination grades) - and they did this to "appear" higher in the league tables.

Teachers became lax on grammar because strict curriculum's stopped them from deviating from a strict timetable, to teach some of the more basic grammatical rules. It became "assumed" that students understood basic spelling and grammar. This, along with the catalyst of technology, I believe, was the downfall in the English Language.

[spacebandit]

Originally posted by Lauren
I think the problems started when Blair introduced the social exclusion policy which brought about the introduction of vocational subjects replacing core subjects.

Also, Conservatives didn't help the matter (yes I did just say that) by introducing league tables which meant that pre-value-added stage schools were competing for statistics rather than actual knowledge. This meant many schools introduced BTEC diplomas instead of GCSEs (and no offence meant here, but coursework/classwork-based grades are easier to attain than actual examination grades) - and they did this to "appear" higher in the league tables.

Teachers became lax on grammar because strict curriculum's stopped them from deviating from a strict timetable, to teach some of the more basic grammatical rules. It became "assumed" that students understood basic spelling and grammar. This, along with the catalyst of technology, I believe, was the downfall in the English Language.

Good post,

although the real rot started in 1980 with Thatchers Education reform where the emphasis on parental choice to take precedence over catchment area for their childs school, though a worthy goal, became victim to a nasty game of political boundary manipulation by the tories, whereby some schools changed LEA's after the boundary changes and the purpose was to increase the profile on certain schools in certain "blue" Wards / Constituencies.

Although in hindsight that pales into insignificance next to the disastrous City Academy experiment of New Labour.

Both main parties have betrayed children and parents since 1980, we are now reaping what they sowed, we are now on our second generation of children who's education falls far below an acceptable standard. Dropping the bar and lowering the standard to achieve qualifications is so disingenuos and outright stupid that it should be criminal.

A generation of school-leavers are being led to believe they have qualifications that are worth something, compared to equivalent or same qualifications taken in the 60's and 70's and our 90% pass rates would probably fall to around 20 - 25%, that is the shameful, no disgraceful, truth of the matter

This country is screaming for a trained, skilled workforce, yet the past 30 years has seen the death of the apprenticeship.

This country is raisng a couple of generations of waiters and waitresses and bankers and "consultants" - a country cannot survive with a workforce geared up to the service industries without a phenomenal increase in imports to supply us the goods and equipment we should be making ourselves to run our country succesfully , unless the rot is stopped I despair for this country in 20 years time

[bananarama]

Originally posted by Stropz
It has been suggested that a lot of people today lack basic literacy skills.

Some say this is due to overuse of the internet and mobile phones.

Discuss...

The internet and mobile phone culture certainly does not help.

The ability to have excellent literacy skills does not alway indicate common sense skills.

What matters at the end of the day is the ability to be understood..... Not the excellence or otherwise of the grammer and spelling. Those that choose to show off by using words that are not generally used as per norm actually make themseves less understood than those who have fewer literacy skills.

[rex3]

Originally posted by bananarama

The internet and mobile phone culture certainly does not help.

The ability to have excellent literacy skills does not alway indicate common sense skills.

What matters at the end of the day is the ability to be understood..... Not the excellence or otherwise of the grammer and spelling. Those that choose to show off by using words that are not generally used as per norm actually make themseves less understood than those who have fewer literacy skills.

i agree

[Sunny_01]

Originally posted by bananarama

The internet and mobile phone culture certainly does not help.

The ability to have excellent literacy skills does not alway indicate common sense skills.

What matters at the end of the day is the ability to be understood..... Not the excellence or otherwise of the grammer and spelling. Those that choose to show off by using words that are not generally used as per norm actually make themseves less understood than those who have fewer literacy skills.

What a great post. Where I agree that spelling etc is important, the important thing is being understood. If someone constantly fails to get their point across but spells everything well does that make them superior!

I can think of one or two examples of illegible posts by seemigly articulate members, they are illegible because they are not clear in their meaning.

I agree the constant changes in the education system plays a huge part in this BUT do we as parents not have to shoulder some responsibility for this also. I make a point of making sure my youngest daughter talks properly to me and does not use slang, and have always read to my children and encouraged them to read to me once old enough. Do as many parents ensure that their children actually revise for tests, what about homework do parents always check it?

Just throwing that little lot into the mix

[rex3]

i want mention who keeps pulling me up on my spelling, when im making a point

[lily.]

This thread wasn't directed at the members of TiBB (just for the record).

It was something I had noticed in general on the net and off. I do agree to a point that someone who spells everything correctly and uses proper grammar but still doesn't have a point to make wont ever be any more understood.

However, I am very concerned at the amount of people who just don't seem to be able to string a sentence together let alone put it in writing.

I wouldn't generalise though and blame all young people. Lauren has certainly proved to be perfectly capable of spelling, grammar, being understood and sometimes even having a point and she's 18 I believe..

I just hope that the education system and the parents put more emphasis on basic skills or we will have a whole generation of half-educated people.

[Ruth]

Well....I'm going to admit that I hate to see bad grammar! I know some people can't help it, especially if they have not been taught properly, and I certainly don't think that bad spelling or grammar means that someone is stupid (neither do I think that someone is necessarily intelligent simply because they have good grammar or spelling), but bad use of grammar really does annoy me. I cringe when people say, "Borrow/learn me something," instead of "Lend/teach me something." Sorry if that makes me a snob, but I'm just being honest!

[nodisharmony]

In my opinion, it doesn't bother me too much at all. My spelling is pretty okay on the whole, probably because I was always good at spelling, even at school. I remember when I came top of the class in a spelling competition once and I was about 13 years old at the time. I also used to collect dictionaries too and played Scrabble a lot.

My grammar is pretty much all over the place. I tend to rush things when I am posting and if I had more time, I would write it all out and then check through it more and if anything looked odd, I would ammend it. But generally, it is rush, rush, rush, which I think a lot of us may do at times.

Regarding "punctuation", once again, I can make a real effort and punctuate amazingly, but I am very, very lazy and couldn't care less, so rush, rush, rush and get the post written out and if something is punctuated wrongly, then so be it. But I do fall foul to bad punctuation all the time.

Then, we come to how I perceive other people who spell badly or use bad grammar or punctuate badly, well I don't care one bit.

Some people are Dyslexic and I hate it when people make fun of people who have Dyslexia. I know four people that have this problem and I allow for it and others should to.

When people wish to pick holes in literacy, then let them pick holes and criticise.

I would rather read an interesting and informing post on here which may have spelling mistakes, poor grammar, punctuation problems, but be a great post. Rather than a pointless, uninteresting or whatever post, which is perfectly worded and spelt and punctuated in every way.

It shouldn't be an issue really.

Some people can have good literacy skills and some don't, but to complain about it and pick holes and perhaps upset that poster, well that's not on...

If someone wants to attack me on my literacy, I will just agree and say, "Yes I know, but I don't care!!" But other's can get offended.

That is one of the reasons why you should leave them alone.

Also, picking on young people and critisicing their literacy skills is nothing less than offending..






nodisharmony

[Lauren]

Originally posted by Ruth
"Borrow/learn me something," instead of "Lend/teach me something." Sorry if that makes me a snob, but I'm just being honest!

Actually... thats correct because it doesn't come from the word "learn", it comes from the old Latin/Germanic term "learen" which means 'to teach' - thats how it's filtered through many dialects. (Though obviously people aren't consciously making a decision to do this, it isn't necessarily incorrect).

Also, I am 18, Stropz

[Dr43%er]

My spelling is god awful. I can see when I have spelt something wrong but just can't see how to put it right. I live with it though.

[Matt]

It annoys me when people spell the simplest of words wrongly. I also hate text talk (except when sending texts...)

[Ruth]

Originally posted by Lauren

Actually... thats correct because it doesn't come from the word "learn", it comes from the old Latin/Germanic term "learen" which means 'to teach' - thats how it's filtered through many dialects. (Though obviously people aren't consciously making a decision to do this, it isn't necessarily incorrect).

Also, I am 18, Stropz

It isn't correct though, is it? I mean, yes, I can see how it originated, but it's bad English to say, "Learn me something." If I am teaching someone something, I am not doing the learning, they are.

[lily.]

Originally posted by nodisharmony
In my opinion, it doesn't bother me too much at all. My spelling is pretty okay on the whole, probably because I was always good at spelling, even at school. I remember when I came top of the class in a spelling competition once and I was about 13 years old at the time. I also used to collect dictionaries too and played Scrabble a lot.

My grammar is pretty much all over the place. I tend to rush things when I am posting and if I had more time, I would write it all out and then check through it more and if anything looked odd, I would ammend it. But generally, it is rush, rush, rush, which I think a lot of us may do at times.

That would be “amend”.

Regarding "punctuation", once again, I can make a real effort and punctuate amazingly, but I am very, very lazy and couldn't care less, so rush, rush, rush and get the post written out and if something is punctuated wrongly, then so be it. But I do fall foul to bad punctuation all the time.

You never struck me as the type to “rush” your posts.

Then, we come to how I perceive other people who spell badly or use bad grammar or punctuate badly, well I don't care one bit.

Some people are Dyslexic and I hate it when people make fun of people who have Dyslexia. I know four people that have this problem and I allow for it and others should to.

When people wish to pick holes in literacy, then let them pick holes and criticise.

So you are saying that you think basic literacy skills are unimportant then? And, that people who have good literacy skills should just accept that some others don’t bother to take the time to learn?

There is a big difference between someone who is dyslexic, and someone who just doesn’t bother to take the time to learn how to read and write properly. Unfortunately there are more of the latter than the former.

I would rather read an interesting and informing post on here which may have spelling mistakes, poor grammar, punctuation problems, but be a great post. Rather than a pointless, uninteresting or whatever post, which is perfectly worded and spelt and punctuated in every way.

I don’t think the post quality of this site has anything to do with this thread. This thread was to discuss the decline in basic literacy skills today.

It shouldn't be an issue really.

So, you don’t think that literacy is important? I disagree. I think being able to read and write properly is the most important skill any of us can have.

Some people can have good literacy skills and some don't, but to complain about it and pick holes and perhaps upset that poster, well that's not on...

Who’s picking holes?

If someone wants to attack me on my literacy, I will just agree and say, "Yes I know, but I don't care!!" But other's can get offended.

Nobody is attacking you. Play the victim much?

That is one of the reasons why you should leave them alone.

Leave them alone? As opposed to helping them to learn something which could help them in the future?

Also, picking on young people and critisicing their literacy skills is nothing less than offending..

So young people should be treated differently according to you? In my opinion everyone should be treated equally. If a person is young, old, male, female, black, white, there should still not be any special treatment given.

And, for your information, it’s “criticising” not “critisicing”.

[Sophii3x]

I struggle alot with my english wether it's writing in english, or speaking in english. I'm not really sure why, but maybe becuase it's my second language and Iv'e been taught in my first language all through my education so far.

It's usually the easy words I get stuck on and the way I say sentences. My grandfather always has a go at me when I make mistakes, like when I say something like "can I lend that pen?" he gives me a lecture about the diffrence between lend and borrow

And when I go to college, my course is taught in english so it's going to be so hard for me.. but I'll just have to get used to it It'll probs help me loads with my english!

[Mrluvaluva]

Originally posted by Sophii3x
I struggle alot with my english wether it's writing in english, or speaking in english. I'm not really sure why, but maybe becuase it's my second language and Iv'e been taught in my first language all through my education so far.

It's usually the easy words I get stuck on and the way I say sentences. My grandfather always has a go at me when I make mistakes, like when I say something like "can I lend that pen?" he gives me a lecture about the diffrence between lend and borrow

And when I go to college, my course is taught in english so it's going to be so hard for me.. but I'll just have to get used to it It'll probs help me loads with my english!

I always used to get that wrong too.

[nodisharmony]

I think that people who do have good literacy skills should be happy with what they have acheived and anyone who is less fortunate to have that ability or even care, "Let's say", should get on in life, without picking on others. That is knitpicking and patronising, to say the least

Many people are dyslexic, but many others are not and are quite happy to either be fortunately good at literacy skills, or relax and accept that lesser literacy skills are neither-here-nor-there. Once again, it is politer to let those get on with it, rather than trying to be miss-perfect who thinks she knows everything.

That is more than, fair to say....

It is a very true fact, that many people on TIBB to get picked on for spelling errors or literacy problems of such type. My advice to those who do get picked on, is to ignore the critics and in fact, tell them to (F) off and get on with their own lives and debate in the normal fashion, regardless....

But, as this debate just says, "Literacy Skills" and that applies to anywhere, TIBB or anywhere, regardless of what may be said by a critic then my answer above, also applies elsewhere.

It is important to read & write in life. But, the quality of writing will variate from person to person and if a particular person wishes to improve their skills, then that is a great positive.

But, if it is the contrary to that, then it should be accepted

I also must add, that for any critic to assume that picking on younger people for their lack of literacy skills, is very bad and that also applies to their sex, colour, age too.

But, for anyone who is older, the same thing applies, even if someone assumes otherwise, it is better to accept it, rather than bully them, like some bullies do









nodisharmony

[lily.]

Ah, a post full of insinuations yet again. I have to say I find it ironic that you frown upon nitpicking when you do it to almost everyone's posts here all the time.

And of course, you do realise that it's against the site rules to tell anyone to (F) off. So, it's probably not a good idea to advocate that anyone does.

[CharlotteSometimes]

Originally posted by spacebandit
It's not a suggestion, it is a hard fact.

How many times have you seen "of" used instead on "have" ?

Young people cannot spell, I do not mean the odd typo, everyone does that I mean a fundamental inability to spell correctly and to construct proper sentences.

I do not blame them, I blame our education system, it has been tinkered with over the years, but only to the point where it is the equivalent to using an elastoplast on a brain tumour.

A complete overhaul is needed, I mean no-one any offense over this - but there is such a large proportion of the under 25's who lack basic literacy and numeracy skills that it is shocking.

Qualifications are no longer worth what they were twenty years ago, ask any employer....

Oh dear.

[spacebandit]

Originally posted by CharlotteSometimes

Oh dear.

Oh dear - what was that you stated in another thread ?

Oh yes...

Originally posted by CharlotteSometimes

Such maturity. I bet your dad's bigger than his, too.

the funniest part ?, you needed to use a spell checker for the punctuation,



But its not just the punctuation you needed a spellchecker for is it ?

In the context - I don't miss a trick.

You see "elastoplast" is a trade name and probably wouldn't show up on a spellchecker

http://www.elastoplast.co.uk/



and - "offense" is an accepted variant of "offence", though you didn't know that...

[
Main Entry: of·fense
Variant(s): or of·fence /&-'fen(t)s, especially for 3 'ä-"fen(t)s, 'o-/
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin offensa, from feminine of offensus, past participle of offendere
1 a obsolete : an act of stumbling b archaic : a cause or occasion of sin : STUMBLING BLOCK
2 : something that outrages the moral or physical senses
3 a : the act of attacking : ASSAULT b : the means or method of attacking or of attempting to score c : the offensive team or members of a team playing offensive positions d : scoring ability
4 a : the act of displeasing or affronting b : the state of being insulted or morally outraged <takes offense at the slightest criticism>
5 a : a breach of a moral or social code : SIN, MISDEED b : an infraction of law; especially : MISDEMEANOR ....

Those pesky spellcheckers - damn their regional specifics





Thought for the day :

When you are part of a little plot against someone - try and keep it a tiny bit more secret

[CharlotteSometimes]

Originally posted by spacebandit
Oh dear - what was that you stated in another thread ?

Oh yes...

the funniest part ?, you needed to use a spell checker for the punctuation,



But its not just the punctuation you needed a spellchecker for is it ?

In the context - I don't miss a trick.

You see "elastoplast" is a trade name and probably wouldn't show up on a spellchecker

http://www.elastoplast.co.uk/



and - "offense" is an accepted variant of "offence"

Those pesky spellcheckers - damn their regional specifics





Thought for the day :

When you are part of a little plot against someone - try and keep it a tiny bit more secret

You post in a thread about literacy skills, yet make umpteen errors of your own whilst doing so. Pointing out that you're talking through your hat once again is hardly immature.

Make your mind up - "spell checker", or "spellchecker"?

Why would you post a link to Elastoplast, when it only serves to illustrate that you failed to capitalise it?

"Offense" isn't an "accepted variant" at all, it's American English. As is the source you've rather pointlessly quoted.

As for your 'Thought for the day', you have rather extreme delusions of grandeur. I see a spineless bully, who trolls around the forum looking for people to flame. If others have noticed you, then that's their business. There's no need to use a sledgehammer to crack a walnut, after all.

[spacebandit]

Originally posted by CharlotteSometimes

You post in a thread about literacy skills, yet make umpteen errors of your own whilst doing so. Pointing out that you're talking through your hat once again is hardly immature.

Make your mind up - "spell checker", or "spellchecker"?

Why would you post a link to Elastoplast, when it only serves to illustrate that you failed to capitalise it?

"Offense" isn't an "accepted variant" at all, it's American English. As is the source you've rather pointlessly quoted.

As for your 'Thought for the day', you have rather extreme delusions of grandeur. I see a spineless bully, who trolls around the forum looking for people to flame. If others have noticed you, then that's their business. There's no need to use a sledgehammer to crack a walnut, after all.

Spell checker and spellchecker are both valid spellings, try to keep up

Offense is indeed an accepted variant, normally I would suggest you check check both english and american dictionaries, but why let fact checking get in the way of a good ad hominem

The capitalisation of elastoplast is not actually "naughty" in the strict pedantic terms you are attempting to apply, it has passed onto common usage as a descriptive term, much like tannoy - another trade name.

As for trolling round the board looking for people to flame :

It appears to be you who has been pin-pointing my posts to flame [wonder where the "ignore" went], I see no carefully considered rebuttal, no considered response, only invective, I also see you slip into name calling.

"crispus nemus"


Whats that rule again ?