[the_stillness]

We all know about [Pit bull terriers] and their terrible reputation as a very vicious and dangerous dog indeed. But they are still here in Great Britain. I realise that - dangerous dogs include many other breeds and crossbreeds too, so I am not having a go at one particular breed. I am looking for the best answer to the problem which exists over owning these kinds of dogs and especially when children are also in the same environment.

This story is very current and the outcome isn't very nice either. Was the case a fair one - in your opinion? What could have been done instead and what improvements would you make?

September 11, 2007

Grandmother cleared over pitbull killing

Ellie Lawrenson, 5, who died after being mauled by a dog in her family home






Jacqueline Simpson, the grandmother of five-year-old Ellie Lawrenson who was savaged by a pitbull terrier, was acquitted of her manslaughter today at Liverpool Crown Court.

Ellie was killed by the dog belonging to her uncle, Kiel Simpson, in the early hours of New Year’s Day. Mrs Simpson, 45, was charged with manslaughter by gross negligence and admitted she was partly responsible for the death because she let the dog inside the house.

Liverpool Crown Court was told that Mrs Simpson, who had smoked ten cannabis joints and drank two bottles of wine before the fatal attack on Ellie, breached a family rule by allowing the dog near the little girl. Mrs Simpson, a former taxi driver, denies breaching the rule.

Emergency crews called to the house in St Helens, Merseyside, discovered Ellie’s body with 72 injuries, and her grandmother lying in a foetal position. The dog, Reuben, was shot dead at the scene.

Related Links
Ellie's grandmother accepts blame
Ellie dog attack left floor awash with blood
Killer pitbull was 'jealous of Ellie'
The jury of seven men and five women found her innocent after a six-day trial

Hearing the verdict, Mrs Simpson wiped her eyes.

Speaking to the jury, the judge, Mr Justice Royce, said: “This is an unusual case which had given rise to very strong emotions. Suffice to say, the greatest sentence passed in this case is a life sentence of regret this lady has passed on herself.”

The jury was told that Mrs Simpson was also charged with possession of heroin found in her home after police searched it in the aftermath of Ellie’s death. Neil Flewitt, QC, for the prosecution, said it was not in the public interest to pursue the charge.

The judge asked him if the Crown Prosecution Service had ever considered a prosecution against Mrs Simpson’s son, Kiel Simpson, 24, for manslaughter. He answered that officers in the investigation believed there was no realistic chance of conviction as Mr Simpson did not believe the dog had access to the little girl.

Referring to evidence from William Dinsdale, 70, that the pensioner had reported the pitbull terrier attacking him in May, 2006, the judge asked if police had investigated that complaint. Mr Justice Royce said: "It’s important for that to be investigated because if a report of an unlawful dog was ignored, it is a very unacceptable state of affairs."

In a statement released after the verdict, Colin Davies, Assistant District Crown Prosecutor for Merseyside, said that Ellie's death had been "a tragedy for all involved".

He added: "The CPS brought this prosecution on the basis that Jacqueline Simpson owed a duty of care towards her granddaughter Ellie. We said that she breached that duty of care by letting the dog into her house, knowing that it was potentially dangerous and capable of killing a child. Furthermore, we said that her breach of that duty of care was such that a jury would consider it to be so gross that it amounted to a crime.

"There is no doubt - and it was accepted by the defence - that Jacqueline Simpson owed a duty of care towards her granddaughter. However, the jury by its verdict have accepted that, if there was a breach of her duty of care it was not such that it amounted to a crime.

"This prosecution cannot, of course, bring Ellie back, but when anyone is killed following an attack by a dog and where there is evidence of a criminal offence, the police will investigate and the CPS will prosecute."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle2430470.ece

[cepb]

I don't think Pit Bull Terriers should be owned by the public if they're that bad.

I don't know much about them...Are they any worse than other dogs?

[the_stillness]

Originally posted by cepb
I don't think Pit Bull Terriers should be owned by the public if they're that bad.

I don't know much about them...Are they any worse than other dogs?

I think they are banned from breeding - neutered - but there is always the black market and they make a good fighting dog. Dogfighting is big [underground] business. Very illegal though.

They have a bad reputation, but we still hear about many other incidents regarding 'Rottweillers', 'Alsations', 'Dobermans' - the list is quite extensive. But - Pitbulls have a massive cloud hanging over them and after this case, it can only increase

[Sunny_01]

That poor little girl, such a shame.

The sad thing is animals are generally controlled by their owners. I had a rottweiler for several years and many people are scared of them. My dog was beautiful natured, she was sweet and loving and very obedient. She was that way because we put a lot of time and love into her training. It is important when you own a dog that you take responsibility for it and it's actions.

I now have 2 sweet 12 & 14 year old springer spaniels that I still would not leave unattended with a small child, dogs even the most loving are unpredictable and we need to be the ones that keep them safe and others safe from them.

[gracie24]

Pitbulls are such smart looking dogs!!
It's not their fault that they've been bread for fighting purposes.

[Retroman]

All dogs have instincts, all dogs have teeth...
All dogs are capable of being provoked into a reaction, whether you provoked them on purpose or by accident. Just like people.
I have a small shitzu and a lhasa apso, both very similar types of dogs..but both completely different. The Shitzu gets angry, growls, tries to bite etc, it isn't vicious and doesn't try to harm you seriously, but still. The lhasa apso is very scared and timid, but can still be provoked into growling and biting when the shitzu provokes it.

Maybe the entire breed of pitbull shouldn't be judged, but the individual dog.
Im sure there's many pitbulls raised from puppies into calm, affectionate and tame dogs. And many older pitbulls who are relaxed and quiet.

It'd be the equivalent of arresting everyone in a community, because the community is known for violence. When plenty of those people are just trying to live their lives and don't cause any harm.

[MarkWaldorf]

Originally posted by gracie24
Pitbulls are such smart looking dogs!!
It's not their fault that they've been bread for fighting purposes.

I agree with that. I watched a programme where some pitbulls were illegally brought into the country, and ironically, they were bred for fighting. Most didn't even have them masks on, and were kept in small garages.

It's all them irresponsible teenages who walk around with their staffs/pitbulls who cause this mess.

[bananarama]

THere is certainly more and more large breeds being walked by irresponsible adults and teenagers alike. Staff bulls are becoming a great problem also in the wrong hands...

Don't know what can be done without affecting responsible owners but it does seem nowadays large potentially dangerous dogs are being used as some sort of status symbol by many.......

I walk my little Jack Russell every day and a day does not pass where I have to evade a Staff bull trying to pull their owners arm out of it's socket.

Either that or groups of youngsters in menacing mode...

What a b****y country we live in.....

[gracie24]

My parents had a Staffy Bull and he was about 4 when I was born, so I'd known him all my life and he was the lovliest dog ever, my parents said that he loved me and was always good around me.
He didn't like cats and that's when he got angry but never would he go for a person.
He wasn't bred for fighting and obviously my parents never put him in the situation where he would fight, and he was so well behaved.
It's the environment the dogs are put into which determines how they behave.
I have a Bulldog now and they were initally bred for fighting and mines the biggest baby ever!
I feel so sorry for the Pitbulls who are made to fight, I think its discusting and I have no respect for the people who run those types of things.

[Mrluvaluva]

Actually. Pitbulls are not dangerous dogs, it is just the way they are raised by their owners. It is just the way a minority of owners perceive them, and unfortunately they make the news. Any dog can be raised to be vicious by mans influence. A lot of them can be quite loving dogs. I shall have to find an article I once read. Interesting topic though the_stillness. I don't think we have met, have we?

[natjake2504]

that is such a same its sicking but to be honest ive grown up with a bit bull and she was soft as S**T so please dont think they are all bad. Its like all dogs some are soft some are mental.

[natjake2504]

Originally posted by Mrluvaluva
Actually. Pitbulls are not dangerous dogs, it is just the way they are raised by their owners. It is just the way a minority of owners perceive them, and unfortunately they make the news. Any dog can be raised to be vicious by mans influence. A lot of them can be quite loving dogs. I shall have to find an article I once read. Interesting topic though the_stillness. I don't think we have met, have we?

Or womens????????

[Mrluvaluva]

You know what I mean. "Man" in general as the human race. Figure of speech.

[Sunny_01]

I agree , we create viscious dogs by encouraging them to act badly.

From being puppies my dogs have had strict training, even though they are very good dogs I still know they could turn if provoked, it is self preservation and a natural instinct in them.

[Ruth]

It's largely down to the way they are bred. Pit bulls are the dogs of choice for people who want to use them for ulterior motives, but a pit bull puppy in the right hands can be trained into a lovely dog.

I have a 3 year old Labrador, who has never in his life shown any aggression (if anything, he is something on the timid side), but I would still never leave him alone with a child.

[Captain.Remy]

Yesterday a new thing like that happened in France, the little girl is 6 y-o and her face is destroyed but she won't die, as the doctors said on national TV.

[sarahtheangel]

all i can say is no dog can be trusted not even a soppy one . they all have the abilty to do harm to children .

[bananarama]

Originally posted by sarahtheangel
all i can say is no dog can be trusted not even a soppy one . they all have the abilty to do harm to children .

Exactly. Even soppy dogs. Soppy dogs in the sometimes blinkered eyes of their owners. I was once a victim of a "Soppy" dog according to owner and finished up being badly bitten about the leg.

I am a dog lover and have had a dog of one sort or another for more years than I care to remember. One must never assume soppy dog or no soppy dog that your dog will always be safe in any conditions...

One of the problems is that people with so called soppy dogs believe everyone else feels as secure as the owner does. Recent case history. Owner with a self proclaimed soppy Staff Bull. Walking in the park with this so called soppy Staff Bull off the lead. Next minute this so called soppy Staff Bull is attacking on the back of a dog that is on a lead. The owner several yards away. The dog not obeying it's owners calls. The man with the dog on a lead doing all he could to get the mad so called soppy Staff Bull off his elderly dog.

Moral of the incident is people are too complacent as to how they view their pets.....As said by sarahtheange all dogs are capable of harm no matter how cuddly they are percieved to be by their owners....

[spitfire]

Originally posted by sarahtheangel
all i can say is no dog can be trusted not even a soppy one . they all have the abilty to do harm to children .

Dead on sarah..People who buy/rescue a staffie should bear in mind that a stafford is a Terrier,with all the characteristics that this name implies-and then some!
Haveing said that ive had three from the dogs home,i love them but id never leave one alone with a child.

[Sunny_01]

I agree Bananrama - many people think their beloved pets are not able to attack. I was bitten very badly in the face as a child and still have scarring around my right eye that is very obvious even now. This was by a westie which was it's mummy's baby. I often find that small terriers can be more likely to nip and bite you than bigger dogs.

I had a wonderful jack russell for several years who was so in love with me that noone else could get close to me or he would growl and snap. In the end he did try to attack a small child which resulted in him biting the person trying to stop him. Much as it broke my heart I had him put to sleep the following morning.

[bananarama]

Originally posted by Sunny_01
I agree Bananrama - many people think their beloved pets are not able to attack. I was bitten very badly in the face as a child and still have scarring around my right eye that is very obvious even now. This was by a westie which was it's mummy's baby. I often find that small terriers can be more likely to nip and bite you than bigger dogs.

I had a wonderful jack russell for several years who was so in love with me that noone else could get close to me or he would growl and snap. In the end he did try to attack a small child which resulted in him biting the person trying to stop him. Much as it broke my heart I had him put to sleep the following morning.

Oh. I am so sorry to hear that it must have been heart breaking. I have an elderly Jack Russell from the local dogs home just over three years ago. (Don't know his real age).
At first he was quite aggressive towards other dogs and sometimes teenagers legs attracted him as feed time.

However he is now far more sociable and mixes with most dogs including teens without problem. Never the less in view of his past behavour I would never take his good behavour for granted....

[the_stillness]

Originally posted by Mrluvaluva
Actually. Pitbulls are not dangerous dogs, it is just the way they are raised by their owners. It is just the way a minority of owners perceive them, and unfortunately they make the news. Any dog can be raised to be vicious by mans influence. A lot of them can be quite loving dogs. I shall have to find an article I once read. Interesting topic though the_stillness. I don't think we have met, have we?

I agree Mrluvaluva that Pitbulls could be raised as nice pets - but their reputation is very bad and the Government have had to look into that and try to rid the breed. I hate this story of a child being killed and it upsets me and many others. I am sure you feel the same way. I do feel that this story will only add to the anger and the Labour government will need to act in some way, but what they do - I can only hazard a guess

I thought it would be an interesting topic and I hope you feel that it needs to be addressed. We have met on a topic once I think, but we never exchanged views, but I have [broken the ice] I am Fred BTW

[Kate..]

pit bulls can be dangerous

but if you bring them up correctly and safely with extra precautions that should be monitored they could be allowed to be owned