[Bigbrotherin]

I'm sorry but I'd like everyone to cast their minds back to before her death when she was criticised daily and actually disliked by the public and press?

I don't remember hearing 1 person say a nice thing about her before she died, all of the sudden she dies in a car crash and she becomes the people's princess.

[Harry!]

[Bells]

As far as I'm aware, people still talked a lot about her then as well. Sure, she was disliked by some - but the press in particular just had so much to say about her, which for her fans was quite a lot of the time a good thing. She went through a lot, and her stories were interesting to many. She also did a lot for the public, both in the UK and abroad.

If it weren't for all of this, her death wouldn't have caused such a huge stir like it did - certainly not people talking about her a lot even after 10 years.

[Retroman]

She seemed relatively nice, did some charity work and was cheated on by her husband in a sense...

So people just felt sorry for her and felt she was a decent person because she went through a hard time.

When in reality, none of them truly knew her, and many of us have been through much worse.

Nobody I knew even mentioned her, they simply didn't care.
The majority of people who do like her are either middle aged - old, or young girls. Basically people who think "awww, she was lovely" when as I mentioned, they didn't remotely know what kind of person she was.

They merely knew her from promotional work, public events, charity causes etc...
Not from what she was like in everyday life.

I think it's quite contradictory to think you care and miss someone when they die, when you never met them.
It's the equivalent of me saying a random woman in India died, and you saying you genuinely feel some form of loss...
To you it's nothing but a name, a bunch of letters, and just you trying to do the right thing because you know it'd be wrong if you simply said you didn't care.

It's impossible to have emotions for things that were never there for you in the first place. It's the same as me being in love with someone ive never even heard of.

[Harry!]

a bit less confused now.

[Hugo]

Well it depends on your point of view. I think the reason she has been labled 'the peoples princess', was because most of the public hated the monarchy after the death. The princess became an individual,almost a rebel and and didn't take the royals seriously, and the people liked her at the time beacause they didn't like the monarchy and they saw her who was on their side . She did a lot of charity work and was an inspiration to many people. But when you cast your minds back were you really that fond of her before the death .

[Hugo]

Originally posted by Retroman


It's impossible to have emotions for things that were never there for you in the first place. It's the same as me being in love with someone ive never even heard of.

Off-topic. What about the tsunami or 9/11 for an example

[Retroman]

I refuse to have emotion for the 9/11 victims, mainly due to so much speculation and even so called evidence that 9/11 was a government conspiracy etc..
Because I don't know first hand what went on and why that day, I tend not to think about it too much.

Don't get me wrong, I won't say im glad anyone is dead.

I'll put it one way:
My mum saw a funeral car drive past and mentioned that we should stop, or tilt our heads as a sign of respect.

But for all I know, that person could have been a bad person.
Someone who did unforgivable things. Someone who doesn't deserve respect.

So id be bowing my head purely because "it's the right thing to do"
Not because im upset, feeling loss, or missing that person because they died.

[Hugo]

Originally posted by Retroman
I refuse to have emotion for the 9/11 victims, mainly due to so much speculation and even so called evidence that 9/11 was a government conspiracy etc..
Because I don't know first hand what went on and why that day, I tend not to think about it too much.

Don't get me wrong, I won't say Im glad anyone is dead.

I'll put it one way:
My mum saw a funeral car drive past and mentioned that we should stop, or tilt our heads as a sign of respect.

But for all I know, that person could have been a bad person.
Someone who did unforgivable things. Someone who doesn't deserve respect.

So id be bowing my head purely because "it's the right thing to do"
Not because Im upset, feeling loss, or missing that person because they died.

Good post. But we do know innocent lives were taken in the 9/11 attacks.

[Bigbrotherin]

Originally posted by Ash
As far as I'm aware, people still talked a lot about her then as well. Sure, she was disliked by some - but the press in particular just had so much to say about her, which for her fans was quite a lot of the time a good thing. She went through a lot, and her stories were interesting to many. She also did a lot for the public, both in the UK and abroad.

If it weren't for all of this, her death wouldn't have caused such a huge stir like it did - certainly not people talking about her a lot even after 10 years.

Well I was there lol and I can honestly say there were very few people liked her when she was live both in the public and the press. Because of her affairs behind Charles's back and because of the relationships she had after they split. I'm not saying I disliked/dislike her I'm just saying I dont remember people liking her untill she died.

[Retroman]

To be fair, all these points are irrelevant...
As we all know, I am the people's princess.

[Ruth]

Originally posted by Retroman
I refuse to have emotion for the 9/11 victims, mainly due to so much speculation and even so called evidence that 9/11 was a government conspiracy etc..
Because I don't know first hand what went on and why that day, I tend not to think about it too much.

Don't get me wrong, I won't say Im glad anyone is dead.

I'll put it one way:
My mum saw a funeral car drive past and mentioned that we should stop, or tilt our heads as a sign of respect.

But for all I know, that person could have been a bad person.
Someone who did unforgivable things. Someone who doesn't deserve respect.

So id be bowing my head purely because "it's the right thing to do"
Not because Im upset, feeling loss, or missing that person because they died.

But there's nothing wrong with showing a bit of respect is there? I mean, okay yes you don't know the person in that funeral car - however, their friends and relatives are in the car. What harm is it doing to you to show a bit of respect?

As for the 9/11 victims - whether it was a government conspiracy or not (I refuse to believe it was), the fact is that 3000 people lost their lives, simply because they were in their workplace. Nobody's perfect - we all do bad things, but whatever those people may or may not have done, people lost their lives on that day through no fault of their own. People were widowed, children lost their parents, lives were destroyed. I didn't personally know anyone who died on 9/11, so I can't grieve for anyone personally, but it's understand that people are upset about such a huge loss of life.

As for Diana - I wasn't a fan of her when she was alive, and I'm not a fan of hers now. I think the way she died was awful, and I feel sorry for her sons, who lost their mother when they were both so young.

[Retroman]

You can show respect if you wish, im not saying it's wrong...just that I don't show it towards dead people I never knew, based on reasons I said earlier.

However, when it comes to actual sadness in regards to the death of a large number of people..
Im not sure if that's possible.

Lets say an animal/insect dies, infront of your eyes, it drowns or is crushed, eaten etc.
You watch that creature die and you may feel a sense of loss, feel sorry for it, may even question whether you could have helped it. You were involved in its life, and its death.

But when I tell you a random animal/insect died in a forest yesterday, do you care?
You just tell yourself it's not really that important, happens everyday and it won't necessarily effect you in the slightest.

Whereas when I tell you people died, you suddenly feel bad, because you've been brought up to think that the loss of people is unfortunate, wrong and a sad occurance. People also feel sad for the death of people aired on television, portrated as a tragic event..such as 9/11. But soon forget those random dead people on the News for just one day. And don't even acknowledge the many random people and groups of people dying round the world.

You just choose to care and feel upset for the people thrust upon your television, with a news reporter telling you how horrible it all was...
Which all seems a little odd to me. People feeling obligated to feel sad over some people that died, whilst choosing not to be even slightly bothered/think about others.

It's not only picking who you do and don't feel anything for when they die, but also choosing the one's that are talked about excessively, over those that are talked about briefly. Which to me, is showing emotion for those who you feel the need to because everyone else is.

[bananarama]

Originally posted by {Checkmate}
Well it depends on your point of view. I think the reason she has been labled 'the peoples princess', was because most of the public hated the monarchy after the death. The princess became an individual,almost a rebel and and didn't take the royals seriously, and the people liked her at the time beacause they didn't like the monarchy and they saw her who was on their side . She did a lot of charity work and was an inspiration to many people. But when you cast your minds back were you really that fond of her before the death .

Yes. I believe you have hit the nail on the head. The original poster indicates she was not popular. That is not my memory of her before she died. Indeed the press were rotten to her and that is why most of the public adored her for the rebel against traditional Royalty that she was and because the press as usual like to character assassinate..........

[Ruth]

Originally posted by Retroman
However, when it comes to actual sadness in regards to the death of a large number of people..
Im not sure if that's possible.

Of course it's possible. Maybe not for you, but certainly for many people. I can't personally grieve for someone I don't know, but it's hard not to feel sad that 3000 lost their lives through terrorism, and it's hard not to feel sad at the state of the world.

Lets say an animal/insect dies, infront of your eyes, it drowns or is crushed, eaten etc.
You watch that creature die and you may feel a sense of loss, feel sorry for it, may even question whether you could have helped it. You were involved in its life, and its death.

But when I tell you a random animal/insect died in a forest yesterday, do you care?
You just tell yourself it's not really that important, happens everyday and it won't necessarily effect you in the slightest.

Well, I don't want to get into an argument, but I really don't think you are in a position to tell me what I would think or care about.

Whereas when I tell you people died, you suddenly feel bad, because you've been brought up to think that the loss of people is unfortunate, wrong and a sad occurance. People also feel sad for the death of people aired on television, portrated as a tragic event..such as 9/11. But soon forget those random dead people on the News for just one day. And don't even acknowledge the many random people and groups of people dying round the world.

Pretty offensive actually. How do you know whether or not I acknowledge the people dying everyday all around the world? People, sadly, do die every day, due to lack of basic healthcare and hygiene - how can you assume that I don't care or acknowledge that?

As for the 9/11 attacks - yes, it made me sad to think of the world we are living in, where these things happen. And it kind of feels like you are criticising people for feeling sad about that.

You just choose to care and feel upset for the people thrust upon your television, with a news reporter telling you how horrible it all was...
Which all seems a little odd to me. People feeling obligated to feel sad over some people that died, whilst choosing not to be even slightly bothered/think about others.

It's not only picking who you do and don't feel anything for when they die, but also choosing the one's that are talked about excessively, over those that are talked about briefly. Which to me, is showing emotion for those who you feel the need to because everyone else is.

Ditto what I said earlier. Who are you to assume who I care for, what I do and who I think about? It's extreme arrogance on your part to make those assumptions about me. Your assumptions are wrong by the way, but there's no need to apologise.

[spacebandit]

Originally posted by Retroman
I refuse to have emotion for the 9/11 victims, mainly due to so much speculation and even so called evidence that 9/11 was a government conspiracy etc..
Because I don't know first hand what went on and why that day, I tend not to think about it too much.

I find it a little difficult to understand why you would have no emotion for the victims of 9/11, mainoly due to the evidence that 9/11 is not what the US administration would like us to think it was.

I personally also believe the truth about 9/11 has not been told, and I doubt it will ever be told in my lifetime, if at all - though I am hopeful that I will see the truth come out.

So the deaths of 3000+ people in those circumstances is, to me, even more disgraceful, shameful and tragic.

To be murdered by a pack of religious fanatics is one thing, to be killed becaause a government wanted an excuse to start a war on a third party - and either planned it from scratch, or did nothing to prevent it, or in some way collaborated with the perpertrators is, in my opinion, worse. because those people were killed, and the untold number of Iraqi covilians and to date approx 4000 US troops, so a few people could make a hell of a lot of money.

The people murdered on 9/11 deserve our respect, and their families deserve condolence - they are victims, regardless of the truth of the causes of that day - they were innocent.

[Retroman]

Originally posted by Ruth
I really don't think you are in a position to tell me what I would think or care about.

Pretty offensive actually. How do you know whether or not I acknowledge the people dying everyday all around the world? People, sadly, do die every day, due to lack of basic healthcare and hygiene - how can you assume that I don't care or acknowledge that?

Who are you to assume who I care for, what I do and who I think about? It's extreme arrogance on your part to make those assumptions about me. Your assumptions are wrong by the way, but there's no need to apologise.

I see a whole lot of "how do you know, stop assuming, you don't know me" etc etc...
Just basic classic defense lines.

But not much of "I do care, I do acknowledge people who aren't on my television, I do think about them as much as I do the 9/11 victims, I do feel sad sometimes thinking about them..I often find myself lying awake at night, or sat by myself thinking of how tragic it all is"

When I genuinely feel loss and sadness for someone, I go and visit their gravestone...I think about them pretty much every single day of my life and how I wish I could bring them back. Now unless you do that for the strangers of this world you never knew, then if anything, you're insulting them by claiming you care and feel emotion towards their loss, but you barely manage to think about them.

That's simply you choosing to acknowledge them when it's appropriate for you. And not you thinking about them on a regular basis because it seriously hurt and upset you..and you simply have no choice but to think about them every day.

Originally posted by spacebandit
I find it a little difficult to understand why you would have no emotion for the victims of 9/11, mainoly due to the evidence that 9/11 is not what the US administration would like us to think it was.

I personally also believe the truth about 9/11 has not been told, and I doubt it will ever be told in my lifetime, if at all - though I am hopeful that I will see the truth come out.

So the deaths of 3000+ people in those circumstances is, to me, even more disgraceful, shameful and tragic.

To be murdered by a pack of religious fanatics is one thing, to be killed becaause a government wanted an excuse to start a war on a third party - and either planned it from scratch, or did nothing to prevent it, or in some way collaborated with the perpertrators is, in my opinion, worse. because those people were killed, and the untold number of Iraqi covilians and to date approx 4000 US troops, so a few people could make a hell of a lot of money.

The people murdered on 9/11 deserve our respect, and their families deserve condolence - they are victims, regardless of the truth of the causes of that day - they were innocent.

This is the point I was making...
You find it difficult to understand why I don't feel for people...
Yet if I told you I simply didn't care about any "lower" lifeforms being killed, I doubt you'd be so puzzled or question me as much. That's just a humans inner arrogance as to claiming our lives are more important and deserve more respect and attention than that of others.

And I also can't stress enough how people claim they feel for the 9/11 victims because it's a worldwide story still being talked about today. Yet im sure many a person you've seen on the news who died, has been wiped from your memory...which shows you didn't care as much.

If you honestly care, why don't you write the names and stories down of the random people you see die every week and remember them for months and years on end?
Instead of just choosing to tell the world how you're upset about the incident that's been on your television for such a long time.

Explain to me =]
There's plenty of group killings, thousands of people who have died, one's that came up on your television screen, but only for a week or two. Some of them you most likely don't remember at all, so did you care about their death? and just conveniantly forgot when a bigger/more important story came along?

If you truly value strangers lives, you'll feel equal loss for all of them and maintain them ALL in your memory for the same amount of time. And not just trust the media to tell you how long you'll feel sad for and how sad you should be feeling.

[the_stillness]

Originally posted by Bigbrotherin
all of the sudden she dies in a car crash and she becomes the people's princess.

http://www.inspiracy.com/rialto/singles.html

'the bottom of that webpage says it all really'

'everybody loves you when you're dead' ha!

[Jackie]

So true

[the_stillness]

Originally posted by Retroman
You can show respect if you wish, Im not saying it's wrong...just that I don't show it towards dead people I never knew, based on reasons I said earlier.

However, when it comes to actual sadness in regards to the death of a large number of people..
Im not sure if that's possible.

I understand what you say Retroman - [about people you don't know] - as feelings for strangers is never as bad as losing someone close to you, or something close-hand, like seeing a child knocked down by a car and you witness it. Or, losing a friend or family member. That would hurt naturally.

You say that - 'You're not sure whether it is possible for people to experience actual sadness over the death of so many people?' Well, that is rather a naive view IMO. I have to say that, as it was very obvious that a lot of people [worldwide] who actually feel very hurt and sad about death on a huge scale - say [9/11] or [Psunami] for instance!

Lets say an animal/insect dies, infront of your eyes, it drowns or is crushed, eaten etc.
You watch that creature die and you may feel a sense of loss, feel sorry for it, may even question whether you could have helped it. You were involved in its life, and its death.

But when I tell you a random animal/insect died in a forest yesterday, do you care?
You just tell yourself it's not really that important, happens everyday and it won't necessarily effect you in the slightest.

I remember seeing a Ladybird one day and my girlfriend stepped on it and I felt a moment of sadness for [10 seconds] But, if I hear of 20 Million insects dying somewhere, I won't think anything of it. They are just blo*dy insects - doesn't matter, does it? Unless you like them? I DON'T However, in comparison to this debate, it is hardly relevant or interesting. [Human life comes first], then [Animals]. Where insect life comes into play????? WELL, it doesn't!!!!!!

Whereas when I tell you people died, you suddenly feel bad, because you've been brought up to think that the loss of people is unfortunate, wrong and a sad occurance. People also feel sad for the death of people aired on television, portrated as a tragic event..such as 9/11. But soon forget those random dead people on the News for just one day. And don't even acknowledge the many random people and groups of people dying round the world.

You just choose to care and feel upset for the people thrust upon your television, with a news reporter telling you how horrible it all was...
Which all seems a little odd to me. People feeling obligated to feel sad over some people that died, whilst choosing not to be even slightly bothered/think about others.

It's not only picking who you do and don't feel anything for when they die, but also choosing the one's that are talked about excessively, over those that are talked about briefly. Which to me, is showing emotion for those who you feel the need to because everyone else is.

When the [mass loss of life] was announced on tv about 9/11 and Psunami and other big losses of life, it does affect many people globally, [like I explained above]. When we heard of the tragic loss of Diana, there was also a great amount of grief from many a person. It just happens. Many people just feel that way about great losses of life - moderate losses of life and individuals too. When a person like yourself wishes to analyse the differences - that is just one persons opinion. It just doesn't work - the way you say it! All people feel differently about losses of life and you must understand that and respect that

[Retroman]

Originally posted by the_stillness
You say that - 'You're not sure whether it is possible for people to experience actual sadness over the death of so many people?' Well, that is rather a naive view IMO. I have to say that, as it was very obvious that a lot of people [worldwide] who actually feel very hurt and sad about death on a huge scale - say [9/11] or [Psunami] for instance!

Im not denying that people around the world claim to be upset..but they only unite over popular people, or very large numbers. Then choose not to unite their sadness over smaller groups or none famous individuals. Who are we to pick who should be respected and remembered? and who should have ten minutes of air time on television then no longer spoke of?

It's kind of like your point below, about Humans > Animals > Insects in terms of importance of life. You can't just go around insisting one life is above another just because you have a more advanced brain. This planet could easily survive [most likely survive better.] without humans. We also cause more harm to eachother than any other lifeform, and we also depend on these so called "lower" life forms to survive.

Less so now, but once we literally lived off nothing but meat/vegetables/plants and even bugs etc. We can't just suddenly claim ourselves as most important now we've evolved...as we really aren't important to this planet. No more so important than any other forms of life. If anything, they are more important, because without them, you wouldn't be sat here reading this =] can't really get much more important than that.

Originally posted by the_stillness
I remember seeing a Ladybird one day and my girlfriend stepped on it and I felt a moment of sadness for [10 seconds] But, if I hear of 20 Million insects dying somewhere, I won't think anything of it. They are just blo*dy insects - doesn't matter, does it? Unless you like them? I DON'T However, in comparison to this debate, it is hardly relevant or interesting. [Human life comes first], then [Animals]. Where insect life comes into play????? WELL, it doesn't!!!!!!

Insect life doesn't even come into play, animals are doing ok, humans are the best...?
That's the naive view of someone who would place a dogs life over a tarantula's because you find dogs to be cute, cuddly and fun...but spiders creepy and boring. Why do you place the value's of creatures lives in order?

Just because you can sit around and think and do things, and they can't? that's the equivalent of saying a mentally handicapped persons life is of less value, which is just plain wrong. Some cannot think properly, or do as much, or accomplish as much in life, just as animals can't acheive as much as us, or insects...so mentally handicapped people should die before us? they're lower down the chain of importance? just because they aren't as advanced and accomplished as us?

Think about what you're saying before you say it.

Originally posted by the_stillness
When the [mass loss of life] was announced on tv about 9/11 and Psunami and other big losses of life, it does affect many people globally, [like I explained above]. When we heard of the tragic loss of Diana, there was also a great amount of grief from many a person. It just happens. Many people just feel that way about great losses of life - moderate losses of life and individuals too. When a person like yourself wishes to analyse the differences - that is just one persons opinion. It just doesn't work - the way you say it! All people feel differently about losses of life and you must understand that and respect that

That statement is expressing that I should respect other people's views..
But you can't do the same for mine? because you disagree with me? how contradicting.

And one person can have an opinion on anything, no matter what it may be. So of course I can have a view on people's conception of death when it comes to strangers. Afterall, you have an opinion on it yourself don't you =]

[spitfire]

Originally posted by the_stillness[Human life comes first], then [Animals].

Oh and who died and made you god?
Human life over animals?give me a break!
(off topic a tad but nevermind)

[spitfire]

Originally posted by the_stillness
'everybody loves you when you're dead' ha!

I guess you will be loved one day then.

[spitfire]

Originally posted by Retroman

Im not denying that people around the world claim to be upset..but they only unite over popular people, or very large numbers. Then choose not to unite their sadness over smaller groups or none famous individuals. Who are we to pick who should be respected and remembered? and who should have ten minutes of air time on television then no longer spoke of?

It's kind of like your point below, about Humans > Animals > Insects in terms of importance of life. You can't just go around insisting one life is above another just because you have a more advanced brain. This planet could easily survive [most likely survive better.] without humans. We also cause more harm to eachother than any other lifeform, and we also depend on these so called "lower" life forms to survive.

Less so now, but once we literally lived off nothing but meat/vegetables/plants and even bugs etc. We can't just suddenly claim ourselves as most important now we've evolved...as we really aren't important to this planet. No more so important than any other forms of life. If anything, they are more important, because without them, you wouldn't be sat here reading this =] can't really get much more important than that.

Insect life doesn't even come into play, animals are doing ok, humans are the best...?
That's the naive view of someone who would place a dogs life over a tarantula's because you find dogs to be cute, cuddly and fun...but spiders creepy and boring. Why do you place the value's of creatures lives in order?

Just because you can sit around and think and do things, and they can't? that's the equivalent of saying a mentally handicapped persons life is of less value, which is just plain wrong. Some cannot think properly, or do as much, or accomplish as much in life, just as animals can't acheive as much as us, or insects...so mentally handicapped people should die before us? they're lower down the chain of importance? just because they aren't as advanced and accomplished as us?

Think about what you're saying before you say it.

That statement is expressing that I should respect other people's views..
But you can't do the same for mine? because you disagree with me? how contradicting.

And one person can have an opinion on anything, no matter what it may be. So of course I can have a view on people's conception of death when it comes to strangers. Afterall, you have an opinion on it yourself don't you =]

Superb post retroman.

[Ruth]

Retroman - you may say I have used 'classic defence lines' in my post. However, what I have written is true. Call it classic defence lines if you will, but classic lines can also be true statements.

Logically, if someone dies, and I have never even heard of that person, and never even hear of their death - how can I grieve for them? Is it not hypocritical to grieve for someone I have never heard of? I have heard about the 9/11 victims, so can feel sadness for them. But if someone dies and I never get to hear about it, I can't grieve for them. I don't expect people to grieve for me when I am dead if they have had no knowledge of my life or my death.

And you say that we should not choose who to grieve for and whose loss to mourn - yet that is exactly what you are doing yourself!

But you say that you won't show respect for a funeral procession because, for all you know, that dead person might have been a nasty person. That's true. But in mourning for other people you don't know, you may also be mourning for other bad people.

As for relying on the media to tell me how long I should mourn for, or feel sadness for - I rarely rely on the media for anything. They are unscrupulous and untrustworthy.

Now - if you really want details of my life and how I mourn people - and what I do to try and help those who are still living in miserable circumstances - you can have them with pleasure. But I would simply ask you not to make assumptions about me, seeing as you don't know me from Adam.

To be honest, you have contradicted yourself a number of times, and your points seem to be very confused.