[spacebandit]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...e_id=1770&ct=5



Officials from the top of Government to lowly council officers will be given unprecedented powers to access details of every phone call in Britain under laws coming into force tomorrow.

The new rules compel phone companies to retain information, however private, about all landline and mobile calls, and make them available to some 795 public bodies and quangos.

The move, enacted by the personal decree of Home Secretary Jacqui Smith, will give police and security services a right they have long demanded: to delve at will into the phone records of British citizens and businesses.

But the same powers will also be handed to the tax authorities, 475 local councils, and a host of other organisations, including the Food Standards Agency, the Department of Health, the Immigration Service, the Gaming Board and the Charity Commission. The initiative, formulated in the wake of the Madrid and London terrorist attacks of 2004 and 2005, was put forward as a vital tool in the fight against terrorism.

However, civil liberties campaigners say the new powers amount to a 'free for all' for the State snooping on its citizens.

And they angrily questioned why the records were being made available to so many organisations. Similar provisions are being brought in across Europe, but under much tighter regulation. In Britain, say critics, private and sensitive information will inevitably fall into the wrong hands.

Records will detail precisely what calls are made, their time and duration, and the name and address of the registered user of the phone.

The files will even reveal where people are when they made mobile phone calls. By knowing which mast transmitted the signal, officials will be able to pinpoint the source of a call to within a few feet. This can even be used to track someone's route if, for example, they make a call from a moving car.

Files will also be kept on the sending and receipt of text messages.

By 2009 the Government plans to extend the rules to cover internet use: the websites we have visited, the people we have emailed and phone calls made over the net.

Home Secretary Jacqui Smith has spearheaded the move to give police and security services access to the phone records of British citizens and businesses.

The new laws will make it a legal requirement for phone companies to keep records for at least a year, and to make them available to the authorities. Until now, companies have been reluctant to allow unfettered access to their files, citing data protection laws, although they have had a voluntary arrangement with law enforcement agencies since 2003.
Many of the organisations granted access to the records already have systems allowing them to search phone-call databases over a computer link without needing staff at the phone company to intervene.

Police requests for phone records will need the approval of a superintendent or inspector, while council officials must get permission from the authority's assistant chief officer. Thousands of staff in other agencies will be legally entitled to retrieve the records once the request is approved by a senior official.

The new measures were implemented after the Home Secretary signed a 'statutory instrument' on July 26. The process allows the Government to alter laws without a full act of Parliament.

The move was nodded through the House of Lords two days earlier without a debate.

It puts into UK law a European Directive aimed at the 'investigation, detection and prosecution of serious crime'. But the British law allows the information to be used much more widely to combat all crimes, however minor.

The huge number of organisations allowed to access this data was attacked by Liberty, the civil liberties campaign group. Other organisations allowed to see the data include the Royal Navy Regulating Branch, the Atomic Energy Authority Constabulary, the Department of Trade and Industry, NHS Trusts, ambulance and fire services, the Department of Transport and the Department for the Environment.

A spokesman for Liberty said: 'Hundreds of bodies have been given the power to look at this highly sensitive information. It is yet another example of how greater and greater access is being given to information on our movements with little debate and little public accountability.

'It is a free for all. There is a lack of oversight of how and why public bodies are using these records. There is no public record of what they are using this information for.'

Tony Bunyan, of civil liberties group Statewatch, said: 'The retention of everyone's communications data is a momentous decision, one that should not be slipped through Parliament without anyone noticing.'

Last year, the voluntary arrangement allowed 439,000 searches of phone records. But the Government brought in legislation because the industry did not routinely keep all the information it wanted.

Different authorities will have different levels of access to the systems. Police and intelligence services will be able to see more detailed information than local authorities. And officials at NHS Trusts and ambulance and fire services can obtain the records only in rare cases when, for example, they are trying to save a patient's life.

The new system will be overseen by the Interception of Communications Commissioner, who also ensures security and intelligence services' phone taps are legal.

The commissioner, Sir Paul Kennedy, reports to the Prime Minister and already carries out random inspections of some agencies legally allowed to see phone records under the existing voluntary scheme. Last year inspectors visited 22 councils already making 'significant' use of their powers' to access phone records. A report said the results were 'variable', but within the law.

Privacy watchdog the Information Commissioner, which has responsibly for protecting personal information and policing the Data Protection Act had virtually no role in the new laws.

A spokeswoman said its only function was to ensure 'data security' at the phone companies, adding: 'We have no oversight role over the release of this information.'

The Home Office said there were safeguards to ensure the new law was being used properly. Every authority had a nominated senior member of staff who was legally responsible for the use the phone data was put to, 'the integrity of the process' and for 'reporting errors'.

A spokesman said: 'The most detailed level of data can be accessed only by law enforcement agencies such as the police. More basic access is available to local authority bodies such as trading standards and environmental health who can only use these powers to prevent and detect crime.'

A spokesman for the Local Government Association, which represents councils across England and Wales, said: 'Councils would only use these powers in circumstances such as benefit fraud, when the taxpayer is being ripped off for many thousands of pounds.'

He added that it was 'very unlikely' the powers would be used against non-payers of council tax or for parking fines 'as the sums involved are not sufficient to justify the use of this sort of information or the costs involved in applying it'.

[bananarama]

Privacy and freedom was lost years ago.....This is just another turn of the screw.......You are only free to speak as long as it is political correctness to do so....As for privacy CCTV put paid to that.....

BB has always been watching......BB has always compiled information about us based on civil servant opinions rather than facts.........You would be amazed that the simple task of taking a driving tests results in a file on you with personal comments often of a slanderous nature. A file that is retained years after your test. I know because I was an individual amongst others who had to arrange the destruction of such files that were filling an archive to the point they had to reduce the number of years they are held for..........

[Matt]

God I hate this Government.

This, and no referendum on the EU Treaty, are two prime examples of how we are being screwed by Labour.

The sooner the Tories get in to power the better.

[bananarama]

Originally posted by Matt
God I hate this Government.

This, and no referendum on the EU Treaty, are two prime examples of how we are being screwed by Labour.

The sooner the Tories get in to power the better.

The information collecting and slander I talked about was done under the Tory Government. No Government can be trusted on this issue of privacy and freedom......

[XxShortyxX]

So I could be talking to my mate about Hollyoaks, and someone will sit there and listen to the conversation?

[bananarama]

Originally posted by XxShortyxX
So I could be talking to my mate about Hollyoaks, and someone will sit there and listen to the conversation?

Some weeks ago I did read about some local authorities wanting to add microphones to the CCTV network so as to listen to conversations as well as watch you.

At this point in time I cannot see that being allowed. However it shows the mentality of some of those that have been given power by us the voters.....There is always a danger in being complacent as to how much power you consent our poiltitions to have over us....CCTV in moderate hands can benefit all in not so moderate hands can become quite sinister.......The fact we live in a society where political correctness is policy. Who knows where control over freedom to say and think what you like will be affected by authorities listening in for rule breakers.

Britain has actually drifted or slept walk into a society that is more like communist Russia of bygone years where neighbours and friends reported each other if they stepped aside from prescribed way of thinking and beliefs.

None of us can predict what future Governments will be like. Moderate or extreme who knows.......At the moment it is quite extreme but could be a lot lot worse

[spacebandit]

Originally posted by XxShortyxX
So I could be talking to my mate about Hollyoaks, and someone will sit there and listen to the conversation?

Under general circumstances if someone wants a recording or transcript of every phone call you make - even lowly civil servants will be allowed to get one

As for what you talk about, if your phone call uses a key word it will be recorded and passed onto the security services - then a human will listen to your call to interpret the context of the word, as opposed to the several computers that recognised the word, and recorded and passed on the conversation - but are unable to identify the context.

So for example, say theres a plot in Hollyoaks that concerns a terrorist attack, and you discuss it in a phone call

yes your call will be monitored and if you use certain trigger words someone from our Security services will listen to your call to make a judgement as to wether you are innocent or worthy pf picking up for further questioning.

[cujo-man]

Jesus!

This is soooooooooooo super ridiculous. This is horrible. I' ll be on the phone to my friend and someone will be listening?!

[Scarlett.]

Ooops there goes Democracy

[spacebandit]

Originally posted by bananarama
Privacy and freedom was lost years ago.....This is just another turn of the screw.......You are only free to speak as long as it is political correctness to do so....As for privacy CCTV put paid to that.....

BB has always been watching......BB has always compiled information about us based on civil servant opinions rather than facts.........You would be amazed that the simple task of taking a driving tests results in a file on you with personal comments often of a slanderous nature. A file that is retained years after your test. I know because I was an individual amongst others who had to arrange the destruction of such files that were filling an archive to the point they had to reduce the number of years they are held for..........

I am fully aware of how we are being watched,
an example I uncovered last year and spread about the net, after getting details under the Freedom Of Information Act, and informing my MP - who has done nothing, a Labour MP.

I was flying from Stansted to Berlin, and I booked a car park space at Stansted using an online form.

I received the confirmation email, and the next day I discovered my credit card had been cancelled as it triggered a fraud alert, after much calling of my credit card company I found out why.

After booking a car park space using the BAA facility my credit card, was used twice 5 minutes later in the United States

One dollar out and then one dollar back in.

At the time my credit card companies server where doing one of the 4 times daily security scans and the two uses in the US were flagged as fraudulent as the card had just been used in the UK.

According to my Credit Card Company during the security scan one piece of software was unavailable for 4 seconds - it was in that 4 seconds by pure fluke the two uses went through, so the companies fraud protection protocols picked them up instead of ignoring them as it would have done had no security scan been in place.

It took me six months and a freedom of information act request to find out what hapenned

And this is it
as I had booked a parking space at an airport my credit card details were passed to the department of Homeland Security in the US, who made two test uses and checked those details against the other information they hold about my card usage.

Why should that concerm me you may ask ?
- they are doing security checks for planes, safety is parmount - yes it is but

this is what concerns me

I was a british national fying from UK airport, on a plane originating in the UK, to another country inside the European Union where that plane terminates and does not fly on to US airspace

yet the British Government now gives that information to the United States

Everytime a british national books a flight your details are passed to the US Dept Of Homeland Security regardless of where you are flying to or from in any country

Everytime you park your car in an airport your details are likewise passed to the US Dept Of Homeland Security.

New security measures have recently been put in place at airports - when you book a car park space, you now must now gave make model colour and registration of the vehicle
you are travelling in. that info is passed to the US ept Of Homeland Security.

Found that out [the extra required info] booking a car park spot at Manchester Airport for next weekend

This is not a free country
This country is not a democracy

I have since been informed by my bank in a rather strange letter, that I need have no worries about my credit usage in future, and that the fault which caused my card to be cancelled last year will not happen again.

No, its easy to read between the lines, they fixed the glitch and now the GBP can go back to the ignorance it lives in.

[Captain.Remy]

Poor British people, but if it can help for terrorism and stuff like that so it's ok.

[XxShortyxX]

Originally posted by spacebandit

Under general circumstances if someone wants a recording or transcript of every phone call you make - even lowly civil servants will be allowed to get one

As for what you talk about, if your phone call uses a key word it will be recorded and passed onto the security services - then a human will listen to your call to interpret the context of the word, as opposed to the several computers that recognised the word, and recorded and passed on the conversation - but are unable to identify the context.

So for example, say theres a plot in Hollyoaks that concerns a terrorist attack, and you discuss it in a phone call

yes your call will be monitored and if you use certain trigger words someone from our Security services will listen to your call to make a judgement as to wether you are innocent or worthy pf picking up for further questioning.

Oh, I get you now. I thought that was already like that? I remember ages ago my mum an dad telling my about this.

[spacebandit]

Originally posted by XxShortyxX

Oh, I get you now. I thought that was already like that? I remember ages ago my mum an dad telling my about this.

It has been like that for a while,
the difference is that tomorrow an unelected civil servant in EVERY town hall in the country, can give permission to see them and then supply to ...say ...your councillor, details of your phone calls, without a warrant and with no police involvement, and does not have to give a submission as to the grounds for the request - they are now just entitled to have them.

While they have to supply a reason, there is no checking of the reason

If you believe everyone in your council is a saint and would never act on impulse then fine, but for example, anyone wishing to stand as a independent councillor now could have their private communications placed into the hands of those they are standing against

and there will be no legal recourse to find out who gets what information about you.

This sin't the final nail in the coffin of democracy in this country, its tha last shovelful of soil to fill the whole

[spacebandit]

Originally posted by sunshine30
Poor British people, but if it can help for terrorism and stuff like that so it's ok.

poor british people ?

The law which comes into force in Britain tomorrow is a EUROPEAN LAW, britain is just the last country to implement it

and NO, its not OK

[Captain.Remy]

Message original : spacebandit

poor british people ?

The law which comes into force in Britain tomorrow is a EUROPEAN LAW, britain is just the last country to implement it

and NO, its not OK

I twon't happen in France, it's not in The President's plans so no worries for us.

[spacebandit]

Originally posted by sunshine30

I twon't happen in France, it's not in The President's plans so no worries for us.

It has nothing to do with the French president

It is a European union law, part of the European treaty your country adheres to, your country may have rejected the European Consititution, but all they did was rename it the European treaty - the French have already implemented it - at the urging of Giscard d'Estang, a politician so bent that even in Britain, where our policticians close ranks and look after their own, he would be in jail - the only sticking point, bizarrely us while they try to wriggle out of a british referendum

To cap it all, the charter's Article 52 gives the EU the power to suspend all civil rights in the "general interests" of the union. No wonder the Government adamantly refuses a British referendum. the GBP are about to reach critical mass in terms of breaking point, you can only sleep for so long

[Captain.Remy]

You're dreaming a little bit, we aren't like you, we haven't a camera for 14 persons. It'snot going to happen, maybe in the other countries but not in France, there will be a massive meetings in the streets if it has to happen.

[Retroman]

The problem is, some people have a certain sense of humour...
Where they may talk about bombing places, or killing people. They don't mean any of it, but that's their form of comedy.

So what exactly happens if you're found to be talking about something you shouldn't? Do you have the police knocking on your door soon after? Personally I think it'll cause more harm than good...

A lot of perfectly innocent people with no intentions of causing harm, could end up in some form of trouble for having a PRIVATE conversation of a specific nature. Purely because the person listening in doesn't understand socially how those two people are communicating with eachother...resulting in them taking the words seriously.

Also, I think we need a News channel that reports all things like this and those similar. I'm not aware if this has been on the News or not, but plenty of negative changes and topics in todays world are ignored by mainstream News, and left for the odd documentary on channel 4 if we're lucky and random websites on the internet.

If more people were made aware, perhaps more would disagree.

Question is, where will it all end? as police struggle more and more to capture criminals, and crime rates rise, are they just going to invent and rely on more and more technology to do their jobs for them? It's going to end up with microchips and CCTV in our homes at this rate. Or curfew's on the entire country to be indoors by a certain time =/ it's just getting steadily more ridiculous.

[spacebandit]

Originally posted by sunshine30
You're dreaming a little bit, we aren't like you, we haven't a camera for 14 persons. It'snot going to happen, maybe in the other countries but not in France, there will be a massive meetings in the streets if it has to happen.

You say I'm dreaming - You are not reading

It is a EUROPEAN LAW being implemented in Britain, already implemented in France

You may not have the cameras we are subjected to, but your phone calls are as private as ours

As for your new president, why exactly did he run off for meetings with Bush, and now your government is cheerleading the call to war with Iran.

Bush has a new poodle now, a french one

[spacebandit]

Originally posted by Retroman


A lot of perfectly innocent people with no intentions of causing harm, could end up in some form of trouble for having a PRIVATE conversation of a specific nature. Purely because the person listening in doesn't understand socially how those two people are communicating with eachother...resulting in them taking the words seriously.

Question is, where will it all end? as police struggle more and more to capture criminals, and crime rates rise, are they just going to invent and rely on more and more technology to do their jobs for them? It's going to end up with microchips and CCTV in our homes at this rate. Or curfew's on the entire country to be indoors by a certain time =/ it's just getting steadily more ridiculous.

I intend slipping a random word like "explosives", into my phone calls, words like "plot" and "target" will be well used in my phone calls also - I can't stop them spying on me but I can give them work to do

[Scarlett.]

By 2009 the Government plans to extend the rules to cover internet use: the websites we have visited, the people we have emailed and phone calls made over the net.

the bastards

[Captain.Remy]

Message original : spacebandit

You say I'm dreaming - You are not reading

It is a EUROPEAN LAW being implemented in Britain, already implemented in France

You may not have the cameras we are subjected to, but your phone calls are as private as ours

As for your new president, why exactly did he run off for meetings with Bush, and now your government is cheerleading the call to war with Iran.

Bush has a new poodle now, a french one

"cheerleading the call to war with Iran." ?, First of all, you don't follow what happened before and next. The french politician who said that didn't mean it in that way, he apologised in the papers, the President did confirm there won't be french soldiers in Iran if there is a war.

The phone calls aren't private only if the police decided too, if you are culprit or guilty of something against the laws.

And if it happened, wher's the problem ? After all, we have to protect our countries even if we have to be watched or listened. Terrorism is the most important thing today and it's far way more important that a phone call to your mother.

[spacebandit]

Originally posted by sunshine30


"cheerleading the call to war with Iran." ?, First of all, you don't follow what happened before and next. The french politician who said that didn't mean it in that way, he apologised in the papers, the President did confirm there won't be french soldiers in Iran if there is a war.

The phone calls aren't private only if the police decided too, if you are culprit or guilty of something against the laws.

And if it happened, wher's the problem ? After all, we have to protect our countries even if we have to be watched or listened. Terrorism is the most important thing today and it's far way more important that a phone call to your mother.

YOUR Phone calls are not private, you seem to be in complete denial

I'll repeat it ..again

the law which comes into force in britain tomorrow extending access to phohne calls, is already law in other European countires

Including France.

As for your claim of people taking to the streets,
these laws are well advocated by Giscard d'Estang, a politician so bent that even in Britain with our political closed ranks establishment he would be in jail by now

And as for taking to the streets to protest - who's sheep are they going to burn to condemn a european law YOUR government condones and supports ?

Or course the french president confirmed there won't be french soldiers in a war with Iran, I never said he did.

I said the French Government is chearleading the war with IRAN, and strengthening its ties with Bush [for reasons beyond me I might add], and only backtracked slightly when the backlash started.

of course there will be no french soldiers fighting a war in the Middle east that their government now supports - if the history of the last 100 years has shown us anything it is that the french don't fight wars on their own behalf, other countries do

[Ruth]

Originally posted by Matt
God I hate this Government.

This, and no referendum on the EU Treaty, are two prime examples of how we are being screwed by Labour.

The sooner the Tories get in to power the better.

Oh boy. If the Tories get in, it will be the final nail in the coffin for this country.

[spacebandit]

Originally posted by Matt
God I hate this Government.

This, and no referendum on the EU Treaty, are two prime examples of how we are being screwed by Labour.

The sooner the Tories get in to power the better.

No, the Tories raped this country for 18 years. Labour are just reacing the heights of self agrandisemnt and corruption the Tories did after 10 years.

What this country needs is a shock to the political system - a mainstream third party gaining major seats, or an extremist part gaining a few seats.

But with a politically apathetic country where a 30% national turnout at the poll would be hailed as some kind of "victory" for democracy is not going to get it without a radical seed change in grass roots politics.

It is there, but its the far right that is liable to benefit, and the seeds of that disaster are being sowed by both Labour and Conservative.

I do not believe a far right party can get into power - but if one was to get a mere 5 seats it would bring about political upheaval in this country the likes of which we haven't seen since the 1920's.

Some may argue that 5 seats is nothing, those that do show a misunderstanding of how politics works in this country.

Heres why

When the BNP got a Councillor elected in Burnley - within 3 weeks, 3500 asylum seekers where moved to other counties, mostly in the north of england. It was not reported and only became public knowledge when someone leaked papers to the BNP and they published them on their website. then it was given a VERY limited airing on local news broadcasts, and only in the north , and not at all on national media or anywhere in the south.

One local councillor elected forced a mass move of asylum seekers, imagine the result of one MP being elected, especially an MP with a large number of asylum seekers in their constituency.

Mind you, I have no doubt that as of tomorrow, everyone who has ever attended a BNP meeting, or looks a even the tinsiest bit thuggish will practically be on a party line.