[Dr43%er]

"You need to ask how you get that which is non living to give rise to that which is living"

I wont complicate things by asking you to define 'living'. However a belief in the Theory Of Evolution can be held independently of an understanding of the origins of life. There are ideas proposed that life may have arisen from self-replicating molecules like RNA but as I've stated this is nothing to do with evolution.


"Also if the way a species is meant to change from one to another is by genetic mutation, how come we have never documented a good mutation? The only mutations we see in nature are bad ones, which nature will select against."


You seem to be lacking understanding in the basic concept of mutation.

"Beneficial mutations are commonly observed. They are common enough to be problems in the cases of antibiotic resistance in disease-causing organisms and pesticide resistance in agricultural pests (e.g., Newcomb et al. 1997; these are not merely selection of pre-existing variation.) They can be repeatedly observed in laboratory populations (Wichman et al. 1999). Other examples include the following:

* Mutations have given bacteria the ability to degrade nylon (Prijambada et al. 1995).
* Plant breeders have used mutation breeding to induce mutations and select the beneficial ones (FAO/IAEA 1977).
* Certain mutations in humans confer resistance to AIDS (Dean et al. 1996; Sullivan et al. 2001) or to heart disease (Long 1994; Weisgraber et al. 1983).
* A mutation in humans makes bones strong (Boyden et al. 2002).
* Transposons are common, especially in plants, and help to provide beneficial diversity (Moffat 2000).
* In vitro mutation and selection can be used to evolve substantially improved function of RNA molecules, such as a ribozyme (Wright and Joyce 1997)."


Dean, M. et al. 1996. Genetic restriction of HIV-1 infection and progression to AIDS by a deletion allele of the CKR5 structural gene. Science 273: 1856-1862.


Whether a mutation is beneficial or not depends on environment. A mutation that helps the organism in one circumstance could harm it in another. When the environment changes, variations that once were counteradaptive suddenly become favored. Since environments are constantly changing, variation helps populations survive, even if some of those variations do not do as well as others. When beneficial mutations occur in a changed environment, they generally sweep through the population rapidly (Elena et al. 1996)

Elena, S. F., V. S. Cooper and R. E. Lenski. 1996. Punctuated evolution caused by selection of rare beneficial mutations. Science 272: 1802-1804.



"What about the lack of transitional forms in the fossil record?"

Darwin himself had reasonable doubts about the consistency of his theory when faced by this problem. However since then many examples of transitional fossils have been discovered; such as those as believed to be the ancestors of the modern Horse, discovered by Othniel Charles Marsh. There will always be gaps in the fossil record, but to suppose that this means that all other evidence for transitional forms is null and void is foolish.


All the best,
Duncan

Doctor's Practice Manager

[Sticks]

But bacterial resistance to antibiotics is a function of plasmids floating through the bacteria population.

Mutations induced by husbandry, i.e plant breeders, may benefit us and how we manage the item we manipulate, but in nature would it happen or be beneficial in an uncontrolled open system?

See this article on Ancon Sheep

[Dr43%er]

"Dr43%er you asked for documentation, well there is the account in Genesis of Lot and his two daughters. Although that example of incest was definitely not sanctioned, there is no reference to anything being physically wrong with the two children born from that incident, showing that at that point the gene pool was still relatively clear at that point."

So because it was written in a book it is so. Frodo travelled through the caves of moria. It is in a book so it must be so.

With regards to any genetic deficiencies. As the book of Genesis does not contain the medical records of the protagonists you can not say that the gene pool is relatively clear. And as they did not have DNA testing then they would not be able to reference any disorders that were not visible or obvious. It does not mean they are not there and as such you can't really quote the book of Genesis to prove your point.

[Dr43%er]

"But bacterial resistance to antibiotics is a function of plasmids floating through the bacteria population."

Fair enough, this is a valid theory. However you asked:
"Also if the way a species is meant to change from one to another is by genetic mutation, how come we have never documented a good mutation?"

Using an excerpt from an article by S. F. Elena and co I made an effort to illustrate that your idea of a "good mutation" was extremely ambiguous as a mutation is only "good" subjectively. From the point of view of a mouse, the mutations that (arguably) allow owls to be damn efficient at ending the mouse's life are seriously "like not good". From the owl's point of view these mutations are "awesome". This is obviously assuming both mice and owls possess conciousness of conciousness and think in English.


All the best,
Duncan

Doctor's Practice Manager

[bananarama]

Originally posted by Chewy
The garden of eden didnt exist it was used to fill a blank space

The Big Bang was started by god, and from there on life was born and evolved

You believe the big bang was started by god. A belief has no value without evidence. So. What started "God".....

[Sticks]

So you believe that nothing gives rise to something in violation of the First Law of Thermodynamics?

[Conor]

Originally posted by bananarama

You believe the big bang was started by god. A belief has no value without evidence. So. What started "God".....

God has always been here, and always will. No one crated him.

[spacebandit]

Originally posted by Sticks
So you believe that nothing gives rise to something in violation of the First Law of Thermodynamics?

unsure if you are being disingenous here or that you just do not know that the big bang theory does not "create" something from nothing.


prior to the Big Bang, according to the original theory , there was the "singularity"

A single "atom" in which all matter in the universe as we know it was condensed.

I suspect you also know that the big bang theory has supporting evidence, galaxies travelling away from each other from a single point, background "glow" of cosmiic background radiation, which the theory states is the residue of the explosion. The Big Bang theory predicted background cosmic radiation, and this was confirmed in 1964.

Lets not forget Edwin Hubbles work on the subject concering how galaxies speed away from us proportional to their distance.

Though in actuality the "big bang" does not actually refer to a single point of time and space where something went boom.

In its simplest terms "once upon a time the cosmos was smaller and hotter, the universe then expands and cools.


Of course it can't be proven absolutely, though the evidence is there.


And as for your argument that something cannot come out of nothing - Quantum Field theory disproves that

[bananarama]

Originally posted by Conor

God has always been here, and always will. No one crated him.

That reply makes as much sense as the belief itself....Religious always avoid answereing awkward questions.......As to do so they would have to admit to a reality they cannot cope with....

[bananarama]

Originally posted by Sticks
So you believe that nothing gives rise to something in violation of the First Law of Thermodynamics?

A belief has no value excep to the pshychological happiness of the believer.

If or when a belief is proven then it would cease to be a belief and then become fact.

Theories are only of real value if they can be proven otherwise they are just another form of belief.......

[andyman]

God? Its funny how people think of god as a him!.. Could it be that we made god in our own minds in our own image and is not real outside the human mind?

[Sticks]

Wow the Coelocanth of the threads!

[andyman]

Originally posted by Sticks
Wow the Coelocanth of the threads!

That is one mad fish... Of fish!

[Fom]

I believe in it, it makes complete sense to me. When you research into it properly it does make sense. The whole idea of natural selection explains a lot about life.

[Sticks]

Originally posted by Fom
I believe in it, it makes complete sense to me. When you research into it properly it does make sense. The whole idea of natural selection explains a lot about life.

Maybe to a limited extent, my issues are the mechanism for the change, genetic mutation and the origin of life.

[Fom]

Originally posted by Sticks

Maybe to a limited extent, my issues are the mechanism for the change, genetic mutation and the origin of life.

A lot of it is uncertain hence why Evolution is a theory rather than a law. Just like Religion is technically a theory.

They both have big gaping holes where things don't make sense, neither have a exact start... where did god come from? Where did the universe come from? My opinion on that is that the universe has always been here, it expands until it collapses in itself into a space as small as a grain of sand and then the pressure shoots everything out and things collide creating planets. That was a theory I heard a while ago... sounds logical.

[Tom4784]

I believe in it I'd like to believe that there was a force behind it though although im not religious.

[Sticks]

Originally posted by Fom
My opinion on that is that the universe has always been here, it expands until it collapses in itself into a space as small as a grain of sand and then the pressure shoots everything out and things collide creating planets. That was a theory I heard a while ago... sounds logical.

Except the evidence shows that the universe is an open system. For the oscillating universe, as that theory is called, you would need the universe to be closed, which it is not.

Almost all the theoreticians believe the universe will end in the Big Chill

Sorry!

[30stone]

Yeah, im evolved im a mutant i have special powers.

lol watched x men last night lol.


But yeh i believe in some parts..

[Tom]

Perhaps some people should take a look at the weaknesses of evolution

http://www.strengthsandweaknesses.or...weaknesses.htm

Also those going on about the big bang- there is nothing to say the world hasn't always been here and never had a beginning, even though our minds can't process that thought

[Fom]

Originally posted by Tom
Perhaps some people should take a look at the weaknesses of evolution

http://www.strengthsandweaknesses.or...weaknesses.htm

Also those going on about the big bang- there is nothing to say the world hasn't always been here and never had a beginning, even though our minds can't process that thought

I am open to most idea to be honest, I believe that the main drive behind religion is that people find the universe so complicated they refuse to believe it. And like to believe a more simpler idea like... a god that created everything.

[Ross]

yes I evolved from a monkey

[Tom]

Originally posted by Fom

I am open to most idea to be honest, I believe that the main drive behind religion is that people find the universe so complicated they refuse to believe it. And like to believe a more simpler idea like... a god that created everything.

Agree with that, and a lot of religious people then change what the bible says to fit science. But then again the bible isn't supposed to be taken literally ... or so we've been told.

But I just wish people wouldn't state the big bang theory as a fact. Its just the most common theory about how the world started, and as I've already said theres nothing saying it never had a start.

[letmein]

People who don't believe in Evolution are nothing more than moronic Chav trash with no education. Here's another shock, the world is not flat!

[noobslapper]

Insult removed - Insulting other members is not allowed on TiBB - Red

If you think God created all life then you need to audit some more body thetans noob. I have been a scientologist all my life, I have now reached OT5 and I have spent many hundreds of thousands of dollars discovering the truth!