[Mrluvaluva]

Originally posted by Dr43%er
But should you break then because you believe them not to be right? If we all decided to only follow the laws we liked it would be anarchy.

I never said it is right to break them. I just mentioned that all laws are not necessarily correct.

I noted that the overriding view in the emigrants thread was that if they come here they should obey our laws and customs. How many of you who think that all so think she should not be punished?

Ok. So she has broken the law and should be punished. Do you think 40 lashes is a fair punishment to dish out to people? I know she has to serve 15 days in jail, but 40 lashes was a real possibility. Don't you find that a bit barbaric?

[bananarama]

This is just another example of the stupidity of some religious beliefs from the dark ages. Nothing to do with culture more to do with national leadership inasanity.

Religions and cultures of that nature deserve to be insulted. Never supported. Never tolorated.......

Beats me why Westeners stick there noses into countries run by control freak extreme religious addicted idiots.....Teachers like her should stay out. Just as well she is being deported. Hope it teaches others a lesson to stay well away from such societeies.....Oil and water does not mix. When will people learn......

[Sunny_01]

I cant stomach the thought that anyone would be punished in such a cruel way (lashed) but it is their way.

This teacher is obviously an intelligent woman yet very stupidly agreed to let her class call the bear Mohammed. I am a firm believer in respecting the laws of the country you are in and living by their values even when I think they are not particularly wise.

[Mrluvaluva]

Originally posted by Sunny_01
I cant stomach the thought that anyone would be punished in such a cruel way (lashed) but it is their way.

Surely that is like saying "I cant stomach the thought that anyone would be punished in such a cruel way (being doused in boiling water and having your toenails and fingernails fully removed) but it is their way."

It doesn't make it right.

[Sunny_01]

Not saying it is right at all Baz, but in their culture it is seen as acceptable. I think it is cruel and unnecessary but have no control over how they decide their punishments.

[bananarama]

Originally posted by Mrluvaluva

Surely that is like saying "I cant stomach the thought that anyone would be punished in such a cruel way (being doused in boiling water and having your toenails and fingernails fully removed) but it is their way."

It doesn't make it right.

Exactly. Just read rent a mob crowds are now calling for her to be executed. National insanity that does not deserved to be regarded as a culture.

[Retroman]

I think it all comes down to how apparent the law was...
And how much they do to make sure foreigners entering their country know all of these laws.

As I think if she honestly knew beforehand, she wouldn't have named it. Despite how silly some may think the law is, she could have been given the opportunity to avoid it.

And you can't blame people for not knowing the laws of a country inside and out, if that information isn't brought to your attention.

It's not like it occurs to everyone to delve deep into the internet/library archives to find full on records of all the laws in existence for the country they're visiting, then take the time to read them all, then commit them to memory.

Otherwise holidays would be more of a chore, than some quality time.

[Mrluvaluva]

Originally posted by Sunny_01
Not saying it is right at all Baz, but in their culture it is seen as acceptable. I think it is cruel and unnecessary but have no control over how they decide their punishments.

The point I am making is that it may be "their way of doing things", but it isn't necessarily the correct and humane way IMO.

[Sunny_01]

No one here is disagreeing with you Baz!

I think Retroman has made a wonderful post just above asking the questions about how would you know that law etc..

[Sunny_01]

More news about Sudanese taking to streets demanding death penalty

Here

They are going from the cruel to the ridiculous. Now it is shame on the whole UK because a group of kids wanted to call the bear Mohammed!

[Mrluvaluva]

Doesn't it just make you glad that you are not living in a country like that!

[Sticks]

I am wondering if she will be "conveniently" assassinated by a "lone" individual who will be gunned down immediately, to secretly appease the hard-liners. (I believe they did that to a ex pm of the Philippines who was returning).

With the power the hard-liners have to mobilise crowds, I can not see how the Sudanese Government could avoid it.

[Sticks]

Not that I would advocate such action, but you can not ignore the politics of the area.

[Sunny_01]

Originally posted by Mrluvaluva
Doesn't it just make you glad that you are not living in a country like that!

Sure does Baz

I was thinking similar Sticks, wondering how long it would be before she was conveniently killed in prison! I still struggle with the concept that all of this is over the naming of a bear

[Mrluvaluva]

It's all been blown out of proprtion if you ask me.

[Sticks]

Originally posted by Mrluvaluva
It's all been blown out of proprtion if you ask me.

Not if you are a Muslim

To a large number of Muslims this was deeply deeply offensive to them as their Holy prophet was grossly insulted by comparing it to an unclean animal. For some, this is so offensive that for them the only punishment should be death.

Hence the reaction in Khartoum today

[GiRTh]

Originally posted by Mrluvaluva
It's all been blown out of proprtion if you ask me.

I dont think it has. She broke the law she must face the consequences. Religion is a hot topic all over the world so she should have known better.

[Wasted]

Why exactly is calling the teddy "Mohammed" offensive? Is it the name of a God or something? Anyway, I personally think it's pretty stupid and pathetic.

[Red Moon]

Teddy bear teacher moved to secret location as Islamic fanatics demand her execution

A British teacher jailed in Sudan for insulting Islam by allowing her class to name a teddy bear Mohammed was tonight moved to a secret location for her own safety.

The dramatic move was made after thousands of weapon-wielding protesters gathered outside the presidential palace in Khartoum to demand a harsher sentence.

Mother-of-two Gillian Gibbons was jailed yesterday for 15 days and escaped a public flogging.

The perceived leniency incensed Sudan's hard-line Muslim clerics - described as "hot heads" by one Sudanese official today.

Massing in central Martyrs Square for an hour, the hordes burned pictures of Mrs Gibbons and chanted: "Shame, shame on the UK," and "No tolerance: Execution," and "kill her, kill her by firing squad".

Riot police kept the mob, who had been ferried in on pick-up trucks after Friday prayers, from the presidential palace.

Dreadlocked protester Yassin Mubarak, swathed in green and carrying a sword, said: "It is a premeditated action and this unbeliever thinks that she can fool us?

"What she did requires her life to be taken."

He added: "The march today is meant to send a message that whoever plays with our religion and faith will bear the consequences." Most of the crowd did not believe Mrs Gibbons' claim that she meant no offence to Islam.

During Friday sermons, the Muslim cleric at Khartoum's main Martyrs Mosque denounced Gibbons, saying she intentionally insulted Islam.

"Imprisoning this lady does not satisfy the thirst of Muslims in Sudan," said the cleric, Abdul-Jalil Nazeer al-Karouri, a well known hard-liner.

Addressing worshippers, he added: "But we welcome imprisonment and expulsion.

"This is an arrogant woman who came to our country, cashing her salary in dollars, teaching our children hatred of our Prophet Muhammad."

Mrs Gibbons, who allowed her class of seven-year-olds to name a teddy bear Mohammed, was moved from the Omdurman women's prison near Khartoum, said her chief lawyer Kamal al-Gizouli shortly after visiting her to discuss the verdict.

He said: "They moved this lady from the prison department to put her in other hands and in other places to cover her and wait until she completes her imprisonment period."

Adding that she was in good health, he said: "They want by hook or by crook to complete these nine days without any difficulties which would have an impact on their foreign relationship."

Several hundred protesters converged at the school where Mrs Gibbons taught, Unity High School.

They chanted slogans outside the building, which is closed and under heavy security, then marched toward the nearby British embassy where they were stopped by security forces two blocks from the embassy.

One of Mrs Gibbons' lawyers said the protest could not have happened without government consent.

Mrs Gibbons, 54, of Aigburth, Liverpool, is nine days away from being deported to the UK.

Today, Dr Khalid al-Mubarak, of the Sudanese embassy in London, blamed the demonstrations on "hot heads" from "hard-line" mosques.

He said: "There are many mosques and different groups congregating in different mosques.

"After prayer, people in particular mosques, not the mainstream, were the ones shouting the slogans to this effect."

He added: "If a lesson can be learned, it's that anybody going abroad should learn about the culture and orientation before taking any job."

Mrs Gibbons' family and friends were unavailable for comment today.

There was no answer at the homes of her son John, 25, and ex-husband Peter.

But it emerged her daughter Jessica Gibbons, 27, a primary school teacher, had posted a touching message to her on the social networking website MySpace.

She wrote: "I love you mum xxxxxx".

The message was posted nearly two days ago when Mrs Gibbons' fate had not been decided.

Source: Daily Mail

[dupin]

Originally posted by Wasted
Why exactly is calling the teddy "Mohammed" offensive? Is it the name of a God or something? Anyway, I personally think it's pretty stupid and pathetic.

Mohammed is the name of the Final Prophet, according to Islam. I think it's fair to say that he's kind of the Muslim equiviliant to Jesus.

It may sound ridiculous, but religion, and respect towards religion is much more sacred in other parts of the world than here - whilst calling a child Mohammed could be respect, a teddy bear is a lesser being, and naming it after Mohammed is almost creating a comparison.

It's disrespectful and maybe not warrant of such punishments by any of your standards, but you have to remember that laws are different in Sudan etc. As far as my understanding goes, she was living there at the time, so I think she should have been aware of some of the rules of respect in Muslim countries before calling it home ;; I know I would have done, in order to not end myself up in a situation which she is in now...

[Wasted]

Originally posted by dupin

Mohammed is the name of the Final Prophet, according to Islam. I think it's fair to say that he's kind of the Muslim equiviliant to Jesus.

It may sound ridiculous, but religion, and respect towards religion is much more sacred in other parts of the world than here - whilst calling a child Mohammed could be respect, a teddy bear is a lesser being, and naming it after Mohammed is almost creating a comparison.

It's disrespectful and maybe not warrant of such punishments by any of your standards, but you have to remember that laws are different in Sudan etc. As far as my understanding goes, she was living there at the time, so I think she should have been aware of some of the rules of respect in Muslim countries before calling it home ;; I know I would have done, in order to not end myself up in a situation which she is in now...

Thanks for the explanation. It is ridiculous to me, I really can't imagine how people could take it so seriously. But you're right, if it's the law she should've known a bit more about the law and culture about the country. It's a sad situation, I hope she doesn't get executed over it, it's extremely drastic imo, and I still think it's stupid.

[Stu]

Whatever happened to that one common law in virtually all religions? The golden rule?




"And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise." Luke 6:31

"...thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.", Leviticus 19:18

"None of you [truly] believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself." Number 13 of Imam "Al-Nawawi's Forty Hadiths."



That third one exists in Islam by the way. Deny or debate that. Hypocrites. Violent , fear mongering hypocrites. A previous post hit the nail on the head. Its all about control.

[~Kizwiz~]

I can see how people can say its an over reaction but to be fair, every country has their own rules and laws and one must abide by their law. Now maybe the teacher didnt know that calling this teddy Mohammed was an offense but we cant judge the country for they're actions and punishments.

She wasnt kidnapped or taken without a reason. She broke a law and offended many people in that country. 15 days was a light sentence she could have got 6 months or 40 lashings.

I hope she gets back to the UK safely but I have a nagging feeling after reading that protesters are baying for her life that she wont reach us at all

[Stu]

I cant believe how many of us are saying ''Well thats their law''. Are people not going to question the law? No wonder the law walks all over them in such places.

[~Kizwiz~]

I dont agree that its right but who are we to question rules of other nations?

Its like the death penalty in parts of the US..... I dont think anyones life should be justice for a crime but yet it still is legal in parts of the USA.

Each country has their own rules, we as common people cant change things. I believe that the Muslim Labour peer Lord Ahmed is going to Suddan to push for her release and I hope he succeeds.