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Liberty4eva · 02-09-2017, 09:20 PM

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88-year-old German grandmother Ursula Haverbeck has been sentenced to two and a half years imprisonment for having the wrong opinion.

That’s right; the state of North Rhine-Westphalia has determined that this elderly woman is to be sent to prison for questioning certain historical events.

Those who have followed the case of Ursula Haverbeck will not be surprised however, for this is her 7th conviction in the last decade for the same “crime”. Her first experience on the wrong side of the law came in June 2004, when she was ordered to pay a €5,400.00 fine for an article she published in Stimme des Gewissens (Voice of Conscience) in which she simply revised the numbers of Jews who allegedly died during the Second World War.

After all, it is not just “denial” which is a crime. Under Section 130 of the German Constitution, it is illegal to, for instance, claim that 5 million instead of 6 million Jews were gassed during the Third Reich, thereby minimising the seriousness of the Holocaust.

Her subsequent encounters with the law have been of a similar nature; in 2007 she was again convicted of the crime of “sedition” (inciting hatred and revolt) for an article published in the same magazine, simply for suggesting readers view Hitler for his domestic achievements as opposed to the war.

Then in 2009 she received yet another fine for an open letter penned in the Mindiner Tageblatt. The letter was in response to Charlotte Knobloch, President of the Central Council of German Jewry, who had been heavily campaigning for political censorship. Knobloch claimed she took offence at being accused of dishonesty, so the court gladly obliged in handing down yet more fines and restrictions on Haverbeck.

Ursula Haverbeck’s latest string of convictions centre around a series of articles she wrote for Die Stimmes des Reiches (Voices of the Reich) in which she has asked probing questions of the official Holocaust narrative. She also wrote to the Mayor of Detmold, accusing him of dishonesty in his repetition of unproven aspects of the Second World War. For daring to hold certain beliefs and having the audacity to share these beliefs, she will now spend the next two and a half years in prison.

Whatever your opinions with regard to the Holocaust narrative, surely any sane person must realise that this kind of censorship and persecution of elderly folk is a grossly over-inflated response to simply posing difficult questions. Equally, the same sane people must ask themselves why only one event in the entire 200,000-year history of mankind is illegal to investigate?

Consider this; is it not the job of an historian to investigate historical events, even when that investigation poses difficult questions for the proponents of said events?

In Germany, that particular remit of an historian is prohibited by law. The same is true in Austria, Belgium, Bosnia, the Czech Republic, France, Greece, Hungary, Italy, Lithuania, Luxemburg, the Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Spain and Switzerland. In these European countries, it is legally impossible to be a holocaust historian, because by definition an historian must investigate and contemplate the evidence that supports – or otherwise – a particular theory.

Could you imagine, for argument’s sake, if denying the existence of Christ was also illegal? This particular religious belief and the holocaust share parity in terms of the evidence that supports their existence as stated by the advocates, but to criminalise denial of the former would seem utterly ridiculous to the vast majority of people. Just picture the scenes of elderly folk or inquisitive children being hauled before a judge every time they denied the existence of or minimised the powers of Jesus.

I think I can speak for the majority of people in saying that is not the sort of intellectually restrictive world we want to live in.

https://www.defendevropa.org/2017/ot...hink%EF%B8%8F/

Youtube video

MB. · 02-09-2017, 09:36 PM

I'd be surprised that you posted an article in favour of Holocaust denial, but then again, you only recently posted something along the lines of "the Allies weren't much better than the Nazis" so

Liberty4eva · 02-09-2017, 10:28 PM

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Originally Posted by MB.

I'd be surprised that you posted an article in favour of Holocaust denial, but then again, you only recently posted something along the lines of "the Allies weren't much better than the Nazis" so

People should be able to think whatever they want to think about historical events. If western countries were allowed to say what they wanted about the Holocaust, I wouldn't be posting these threads.

MTVN · 02-09-2017, 09:43 PM

Stop reading websites like this.

Liberty4eva · 02-09-2017, 10:34 PM

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Originally Posted by MTVN

Stop reading websites like this.

You ought to try reading some of these websites that will challenge what you believe or were told was true. I often read books that challenge my beliefs. That's how you grow and develop your views. Try to step out of your safe-spot once and a while.

Toy Soldier · 02-09-2017, 09:45 PM

Jailing an old Nazi (unless they actually committed a war crime) is a bit pointless, I must admit, however...

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simply [sic] for suggesting readers view Hitler for his domestic achievements as opposed to the war.

You can't possibly be trying to suggest that she doesn't have at the very least some Nazi tendencies. "I'm simply suggesting that you should ignore the horrendous crimes against humanity, and focus on the economic achievements of Mein Fuhrer!"

AProducer'sWetDream · 02-09-2017, 11:06 PM

http://www.dw.com/en/nazi-grandma-ho...ail/a-19522941

Funny how the article in the OP fails to mention her disgusting denial of the holocaust, describing it as 'challenging the established narrative' or some other BS. She is clearly a vile person and deserves everything she gets for minimising the darkest chapter of human history and brushing aside the suffering of millions of people and families across Europe.

Liberty4eva · 02-09-2017, 11:29 PM

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Originally Posted by AProducer'sWetDream

http://www.dw.com/en/nazi-grandma-ho...ail/a-19522941

Funny how the article in the OP fails to mention her disgusting denial of the holocaust, describing it as 'challenging the established narrative' or some other BS. She is clearly a vile person and deserves everything she gets for minimising the darkest chapter of human history and brushing aside the suffering of millions of people and families across Europe.

Did she ever hurt anyone? Did she ever advocate violence against anyone? No, she said something you and others didn't like. And for that she has to go to jail. Hmmm, isn't that what the Nazi's did?

MB. · 02-09-2017, 11:32 PM

Yes, condemning someone for denying the Holocaust is equivalent to being a Nazi, congratulations on your faultless logic

Liberty4eva · 02-09-2017, 11:39 PM

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Originally Posted by MB.

Yes, condemning someone for denying the Holocaust is equivalent to being a Nazi, congratulations on your faultless logic

If you replace the words "condemning someone" with the more accurate phrase "throwing someone in jail" it becomes all too apparent how ridiculous this comment is.

MB, I dare you to post this exact same comment in another post with that change in words.

AProducer'sWetDream · 02-09-2017, 11:36 PM

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Originally Posted by Liberty4eva

Did she ever hurt anyone? Did she ever advocate violence against anyone? No, she said something you and others didn't like. And for that she has to go to jail. Hmmm, isn't that what the Nazi's did?

No, the Nazis systematically and cruelly murdered over six million innocent people simply because they had characteristics they didn't like. She is denying that this happened, and you're posting an article defending her.

And yes, holocaust denial is dangerous and harmful. Only by constantly reminding ourselves of the very real horrors of this period can we avoid allowing anything like it to happen again. To deny it is disrespectful to the memories of all those who died in concentration camps or on the streets of Europe, and the people still living who suffered through concentration camps and Nazi occupation.

AProducer'sWetDream · 02-09-2017, 11:08 PM

Can I also point out the irony of someone who's username claims they are in support of liberty, yet posts articles in support of a Nazi. If this is what 'fighting the PC culture' looks like, I'm happy to be called a member of the so-called 'PC brigade'.

Liberty4eva · 02-09-2017, 11:19 PM

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Originally Posted by AProducer'sWetDream

Can I also point out the irony of someone who's username claims they are in support of liberty, yet posts articles in support of a Nazi. If this is what 'fighting the PC culture' looks like, I'm happy to be called a member of the so-called 'PC brigade'.

Tell me something 'PC brigade' member, should we jail people who don't believe Native Americans or Australian aboriginals at times suffered genocide? What if there was someone so brazen to claim that these people were not even the first to arrive on their respective continents? Should they go to jail? To make it illegal to question the Holocaust is so arbitrary in light of all of the other events of history that might be insensitive to question yet are legal to question. The question is not whether or not it happened, the question is should she be in jail for using the mouth god gave her and the air god put in her lungs in a way that certain people (you) don't like?

AProducer'sWetDream · 02-09-2017, 11:43 PM

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Originally Posted by Liberty4eva

Tell me something 'PC brigade' member, should we jail people who don't believe Native Americans or Australian aboriginals at times suffered genocide? What if there was someone so brazen to claim that these people were not even the first to arrive on their respective continents? Should they go to jail? To make it illegal to question the Holocaust is so arbitrary in light of all of the other events of history that might be insensitive to question yet are legal to question. The question is not whether or not it happened, the question is should she be in jail for using the mouth god gave her and the air god put in her lungs in a way that certain people (you) don't like?

It's all very well for people to debate the validity of certain historical accounts and sources, but the Holocaust is treated as established fact due to the overwhelming evidence that these events took place. I'm no expert on either of the specific examples you named- I'm sure historians will come to their own conclusion. However, as a principal, if a person chooses to deny established facts as a way to minimise genocide or defend the actions of a murderous dictator, I see this as being no different to, for example, supporting a terrorist organisation.

Liberty4eva · 02-09-2017, 11:52 PM

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Originally Posted by AProducer'sWetDream

It's all very well for people to debate the validity of certain historical accounts and sources, but the Holocaust is treated as established fact due to the overwhelming evidence that these events took place. I'm no expert on either of the specific examples you named- I'm sure historians will come to their own conclusion. However, as a principal, if a person chooses to deny established facts as a way to minimise genocide or defend the actions of a murderous dictator, I see this as being no different to, for example, supporting a terrorist organisation.

As a society wouldn't it be better to refute what these people say by going over the "overwhelming" evidence which would make them look deluded rather than take away their freedom? Truth doesn't need the law to protect it. All it needs is a platform where it can compete freely with alternative (false) ideas and it will win all the time. Lies, on the contrary, need government protection.

the truth · 03-09-2017, 03:14 PM

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Originally Posted by AProducer'sWetDream

Can I also point out the irony of someone who's username claims they are in support of liberty, yet posts articles in support of a Nazi. If this is what 'fighting the PC culture' looks like, I'm happy to be called a member of the so-called 'PC brigade'.

Thats an inaccurate disingenous misrepresentation of what the poster said. Youre being dishonest

Toy Soldier · 04-09-2017, 08:24 AM

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Originally Posted by the truth

Thats an inaccurate disingenous misrepresentation of what the poster said. Youre being dishonest

No, truth. If someone posts something like this thread once, it can just be a random observation or comment. If they keep doing it repeatedly and often with the same underlying message, it becomes an agenda. This is the third or fourth time in the last short while that the same member has "just noticed" something that could be described as Nazi-sympathising.

DemolitionRed · 04-09-2017, 09:06 AM

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Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

No, truth. If someone posts something like this thread once, it can just be a random observation or comment. If they keep doing it repeatedly and often with the same underlying message, it becomes an agenda. This is the third or fourth time in the last short while that the same member has "just noticed" something that could be described as Nazi-sympathising.

I agree. Its clear from the ops posting history and his comments that follow his initial post on this thread, that he's attempting to tease out support for his beliefs.

Liberty4eva · 04-09-2017, 05:39 PM

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Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

No, truth. If someone posts something like this thread once, it can just be a random observation or comment. If they keep doing it repeatedly and often with the same underlying message, it becomes an agenda. This is the third or fourth time in the last short while that the same member has "just noticed" something that could be described as Nazi-sympathising.

No, No, No, No, and No.

But I do like to point out the irony that those who see themselves as fighting Nazism are often in reality closer to being Nazis than they realize. I am fascinated how a thread like this can produce comment after comment of people expressing happiness that an 88 year old grandma is behind bars for daring to not have conventional beliefs. Today, the anti-fascists are the fascists.

Toy Soldier · 04-09-2017, 05:42 PM

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Originally Posted by Liberty4eva

No, No, No, No, and No.

But I do like to point out the irony that those who see themselves as fighting Nazism are often in reality closer to being Nazis than they realize. I am fascinated how a thread like this can produce comment after comment of people expressing happiness that an 88 year old grandma is behind bars for daring to not have conventional beliefs. Today, the anti-fascists are the fascists.

She's behind bars for spreading Nazi rhetoric and propaganda, and I'm not sure why you keep mentioning her age, like being 88 somehow makes her suddenly sweet and innocent.