[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Children who are not gay also have same sex crushes at 9. At that age it's all a bit hazy really.

You have no idea about my sexuality because I haven't declared it so don't presume please.

I don't understand the concept of coming out because declaring your private life publicly is daft. It's your business, not everyone else's.

But when you know, you know.

The fact you don't understand the importance of coming out is all I need to know, really.

[Maru]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

You deal with the cards you are dealt, not the cards you want to be dealt

Yeah and if we're unfortunate enough to pick up a lot of bad cards along the way, at least play those cards in such a way that it won't further undermine your own situation... we don't have to hide who we are to feel content with it, but we don't have to advertise it either?...

In my opinion, much of bullying is a bad mix of the attacker and victim is lacking certain key social development that can make the victim more appealing... the catch is the bully usually has a better understanding of the "social economy", how one interaction can cause one person to react a certain way, which leads to the next interaction and vice-versa...

So my opinion of the solution...

1) Yes, society should improve itself, but that will only happen only over a longer period of time, and only if we raise better kids, mend the social divide, etc... but even then, it's not "the" solution imo... it just helps reduce the natural friction caused by inequalities in personal power between peers...

2) A more practical solution (for the parents) is being involved in your child's social development. A kid can be the sweetest, most gentlest and kindest person in the group... but without learning certain social strategies, that will only get them so far. If they are trying to cope and it is only getting worse, then they may not have the social skills to analyze and fully understand the problem, much less being able to identify where they are reciprocating the interactions.

Bullies don't care about virtue signaling, but they do care about their heirarchy in a group, where most of their personal power comes from... They want the victim's status which stems from a deep seated sense of envy (believe it or a not). A peer with higher social development and sense of self would be able to unmask this quickly. However, a child who is still behind so to speak, they won't understand the power play and so they will more strongly associate with the bully's attempts to make them feel the victim. It's this victim mentality they depend on, because by undermining the self-esteem of their victims, who are usually more independent/dissociated from the rest of the group, cheats them into giving up their own personal power...

Bullies won't go after kids who are associated with a large group of folk who will be difficult to pull that child away... and they risk interacting with those individuals with stronger self-esteem in those groups who will unmask their behavior...... so they will go after the individualists, i.e. the introverts stray from the herd in some fundamental way and can be isolated... it's their independent minds that make them more quirkish, not their "victim status" (i.e. homosexual, minority, most nerdish, etc)... and those folk are not likely to be really paying attention to group dynamics to understand the attacks... so even better if those kids are struggling socially in that environment to adapt, because it means they can make repeated runs at their personal power, making them appear more powerful to their rest of the peer group...

That's part of what makes online so ripe for bullying as well (outside of anonymity)... as most of what is posted up is centered around the individual, their identity, not their "place" in the group... so it's easy to "isolate" a lone profile who be tricked into disbelieving their personal power, versus a group of folk arranged together in a clique in a physical room... would not be a tempting target at all...

In some ways, I'd say some kids are better off now than we used to be... they have better social development than we did before there was online and all that. Read this today and I thought about that specifically:

Logged off: meet the teens who refuse to use social media
https://www.theguardian.com/society/...t-social-media

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

But when you know, you know.

The fact you don't understand the importance of coming out is all I need to know, really.

I understand it's a silly trend that used to be a nasty and damaging way of forcing public figures to declare their sexuality.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by jaxie

I understand it's a silly trend that used to be a nasty and damaging way of forcing public figures to declare their sexuality.

???

You're not making much sense.

[Maru]

I get where jaxie is coming from.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Kids have crushes at that age and younger sometimes, he just happened to have crushes on boys and knew what that meant. A person doesn't decide their sexuality, it simply is something that is. It's sad that we're putting his sexuality under a microscope and not the school environment that facilitated the bullying.

You don't get the concept of coming out because it's something that doesn't apply to you. LGBT people tend to be scared to be themselves, before we come out we'll change who we are and how we act in order to pass as 'normal'. Coming out is an important part of LGBT people accepting who they are and becoming confident in who they are. It's not about saying whether you like dick or vag but accepting what will be a huge part of you life and making peace with it.

...yeah basically this really ..we don’t decide our sexuality but with heterosexuality we kind of automatically fall into society expectations and assumptions etc...which do still exist but you know, it is stretching out more and more ...and that does help obviously in changing and rearranging society judgements for many...people obviously should never be forced or feel forced to come out...it’s a personal thing of if and when they want to...(...and can live their whole life having never wanted to etc...)...but sadly, there’s outing someone as well which seems to happen at times with celebrities which is so wrong...and it makes no difference to their celebrity status anyway or anything about them in any way..so it’s just wrong really...it should always be a personal and individual choice ...but in this internet world especially..it allows for so much interest in celebrity and following of celebrity etc...that it just makes it so easy in the ‘outing’...almost like a race to get that ‘exclusive’ at times is how it can feel...


..I think with some parents..?...they know their child, they feel their child in terms of realising their sexuality so are able to have that ‘talk’ with them first if they think that would be helpful to their child...they also might think their child wouldn’t want to have that ‘talk’ quite yet and leave them to their own time and own way, you know...but with other parents, assumptions can be made and expectations can be there even if it’s not realised that’s what’s happening or that’s what their child is feeling...the love and support are absolutely still there...

...this reminds me of Father and Son by Cat Stevens..’find a girl, settle down and if you want to, you can marry’...well what if it’s a boy, dad...and it’s only recently I’ve been told I can marry anyway...and even though I can now, society will still judge...CAKE SHOPS WILL NOT MAKE MY CAKE...so this is very hard for me, dad...but I’ll make the first step of coming out which is something you never had to do...because you found a girl and you settled down and you got married etc...

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Maru

I get where jaxie is coming from.

Thanks Maru. And thanks for the link in your post, very interesting read.

I have wondered in this case if the parents encouraged the child to out himself as the story seems rather strange and the child too young to understand and express sexuality. As Ammi said, assumptions can be made, and assumptions can be wrong. I doubt many nine year olds understand what sexuality is, let alone being able to claim their own. Children go through so many changes and little girls particularly will often have strong crushes on other girls and women they admire at this age but grow up to be hetrosexual.

People can get it wrong, specially if they are parents who think their child may be gay at such a young age and it's not the appropriate age for this discussion beyond understanding your child and their needs and trying to encourage them that they are loved and special whoever they end up growing up to love. I have known boys and girls with a preference for the toys that are considered more appropriate for the opposite sex by society and this has no bearing on their sexuality later on. I have known a very camp man who was completely hetrosexual.

I suppose what I am saying is people do not necessarily fit into categories or into boxes, particularly at such a young age. We change, things change and children should be encouraged to be who they are without being categorised.

This is a very sad case with a child who must have been very unhappy.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by jaxie

I wondered about his family too and how a child so young would know whether he was actually gay or not. It feels like this is only half the story and here are many unanswered questions around it.

It doesn't matter if he knew exactly what "being gay" exactly means, he knew he was different to his peers, and he was bullied for it.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Maru

I get where jaxie is coming from.

Congrats, still doesn't really make what she said any clearer though.

Coming out isn't a way to force celebrities to reveal their truths. It's something that almost all LGBT people have to do at some point in their lives. It's gross to paint what is essentially someone accepting themselves and deciding to share it with the people they love as something dark and not good and that kind of attitude comes with connotations.

Sometimes coming out costs people in the end but the whole point of it is that it helps the person in question truly accept who they are.

Originally Posted by jaxie

Thanks Maru. And thanks for the link in your post, very interesting read.

I have wondered in this case if the parents encouraged the child to out himself as the story seems rather strange and the child too young to understand and express sexuality. As Ammi said, assumptions can be made, and assumptions can be wrong. I doubt many nine year olds understand what sexuality is, let alone being able to claim their own. Children go through so many changes and little girls particularly will often have strong crushes on other girls and women they admire at this age but grow up to be hetrosexual.

People can get it wrong, specially if they are parents who think their child may be gay at such a young age and it's not the appropriate age for this discussion beyond understanding your child and their needs and trying to encourage them that they are loved and special whoever they end up growing up to love. I have known boys and girls with a preference for the toys that are considered more appropriate for the opposite sex by society and this has no bearing on their sexuality later on. I have known a very camp man who was completely hetrosexual.

I suppose what I am saying is people do not necessarily fit into categories or into boxes, particularly at such a young age. We change, things change and children should be encouraged to be who they are without being categorised.

This is a very sad case with a child who must have been very unhappy.

I think you're trying to minimalise the issue here and change focus. This story is not about whether or not the child was gay or not, he said he was and he was bullied for it, that's what matters here. I think it's utterly disgusting to see that people's first response is not to blame the bullies but to look at the parents and make out they forced choices on their kids with no evidence suggesting so because the kid happened to be gay.

As Oliver has said, the story comes down to a boy being different and being bullied to death because of it.

[LeatherTrumpet]

If the mother let her son go to school to announce to all he was gay at 9 years old then I would lay a lot of blame at her feet

[Tom4784]

Yup, blame the mother and excuse the homophobia.....

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Yup, blame the mother and excuse the homophobia.....

i like top see the bigger picture rather just get out a pitchfork

[Tom4784]

Well, no. You'd rather scapegoat the mother rather than place blame on the homophobic bullying that took place.

[Redway]

As sad as this story is how does a 9-year-old already have an established sexuality?

[Maru]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

i like top see the bigger picture rather just get out a pitchfork

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Well, no. You'd rather scapegoat the mother rather than place blame on the homophobic bullying that took place.

We live in a society that doesn't agree on just about anything, and a large part of that is due to our diversity. In this case, intellectual diversity also applies. Emotional arguments and guilt-tripping doesn't work with people because not everyone will share that particular motive and thus not likely to be empathetic. What we're proposing requires that everyone behave and think the same way, which is never going to be realistic in any group setting...

As was suggested by the mother, rather than focus on empty promises that society will change and that we will all come to believe the same thing in due time, a 9/yo shouldn't have been encouraged to share their life story so young without at least being prepared for any potential blow-back .. suicide is a pretty extreme reaction and I think very doubtful this happened overnight. It's possible too they were bullied massively for years prior, but don't we think it's a bit weird it occurred after only four days of bullying... her words about her son feeling terrified were quite heartbreaking, as so clearly there was something going wrong that was unfortunately missed.

I think as jaxie mentioned, the concern here is whether the parents in the background maybe inadvertently encouraged them to continue making it the issue with their peers by giving them empty phrases such "You should never be ashamed and hide your sexuality, etc..."... which to me is very bad advice... of course we should use discretion with who we tell our most private details to? That would be mad in a school setting where kids are nearing their terrible teens.

Our culture encourages exhibitionism and oversharing of various opinions (not just sexuality) which has led to a lot of ill effects in society in terms of many parents allowing our younger generations to become mouthpieces for "change"... whether intentional or not, that is our fault. It has always been the responsibility of older/wise folk to set the standard, not the young... they're still in formative years and they can't yet cope with all the complications and stressors of being in various social settings... we don't know what the mother did/didn't teach their child, but clearly they weren't emotionally equipped to handle 4 days of homophobic bullying, if that is to be the actual cause...

I should never have to feel I should withhold my spiritual & political views either, but sadly that's part of becoming a member of society and having to deal with a group. I will be exposed to opinions that disagree with my own POV. We have to discern who we share our time and energy with. Learning that lesson is quite important, and much more liberating than the current mantra(s) passed as empowerment. Things like labels and check-boxes only really matter when we start to operate and think independence of the group... but taking ownership of some of those trickier labels can sometimes take a lifetime of development and ownership.

TLDR: Loudly exclaiming our personal views & leanings to most everyone we meet does not equal self-acceptance. In fact, intentional or not, oversharing (as in too many details, not just his sexuality) can come off as being emotionally needy in a group setting which may lead to alienation... and when a child is still developing, they're still quite naive. It's important parents be mindful that while their child can be the kindest, sweetest, well-mannered individual, they won't necessarily be accepted by everyone the way they maybe deserve. It also doesn't mean they yet have the social skills and the emotional understanding to comprehend the diffused/mixed reaction they may receive at revealing such details... there's various factors that could've led to their suicide I think, but the parents are the only real control in this situation. Who we blame is irrelevant to suicide prevention.

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Redway

As sad as this story is how does a 9-year-old already have an established sexuality?

I don't think a whole lot is truly "established" until we're into our 20's... and even then, some things can still change ...