[Redway]

Bible makes itself crystal clear still. That bit can’t be denied.

cc. GoldHeart

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

There's still no denying Religion brings comfort to some people , even the most devout person struggles with their faith .

There's plenty of loving open minded religious people around as well . Not everyone is a strict militant with fingers in their ears .

I defended religion last time it was discussed here, I mean the right to be religious etc
I don't disagree with you GH. But let's not act surprised the religious texts formed a basis for persecution of homosexuality bc they have

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

I defended religion last time it was discussed here, I mean the right to be religious etc
I don't disagree with you GH. But let's not act surprised the religious texts formed a basis for persecution of homosexuality bc they have

Yeah I know what you're saying TS , I remember the last discussion .

All over the world people are persecuted for who they are and what they believe in .

[parmnion]

Part 2 was on last night, it shocked me that it is actually people volountary going to the pastor to be "cured"



Makes you think that some people have a stronger connection to god than they do
with or for their sexuality.

[LeatherTrumpet]

"religion brings many people comfort"


always gets brought up but with little or no actual evidence

Pretending that everythiung will be ok (it wornt) that you will go to heaven and see loved ones (you wont) that praying will help (it wont) that Jesus will come back and save the world (he wont)

is just that, pretending, and lying to yourself about anything wont comfort you

the 20,000 men who died on day one of WWI im sure all prayed to "god" to help them but they still all died horrific deaths and guess what, they are still dead

etc

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by parmnion

Part 2 was on last night, it shocked me that it is actually people volountary going to the pastor to be "cured"



Makes you think that some people have a stronger connection to god than they do
with or for their sexuality.

I didn't watch the programme but do you think it's a connection to god or that they don't want to be ostracized by their families etc?

[Redway]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

"religion brings many people comfort"


always gets brought up but with little or no actual evidence

Pretending that everythiung will be ok (it wornt) that you will go to heaven and see loved ones (you wont) that praying will help (it wont) that Jesus will come back and save the world (he wont)

is just that, pretending, and lying to yourself about anything wont comfort you

the 20,000 men who died on day one of WWI im sure all prayed to "god" to help them but they still all died horrific deaths and guess what, they are still dead

etc

Do you get a kick out of being so insensitive?

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

I get where you're coming from. There are "worse" religions, but it's easy to have a go at Christianity as they won't accuse you of e.g. anti-semitism or islamophobia. Not to mention nobody will come round to kill you.

But having said that I'm with Redway, we can't deny all three Abrahamic religions have anti-homosexual texts in them which are still used to discriminate.

The fundamentalists of those religions discriminate... the extremists... But there are rabbis who will bless your gay marriage, some Christian vicars will even marry gay couples. I rarely meet a contemporary person of faith who believes God made a mistake with gay people. And frankly, if they're going to discriminate against people for being gay then they're not my kind of people.

Just a word about your first para, 2S... No ringletted Frommer is goinging round to anyone's house to kill them or there'd be a whole pile of Corbynites awaiting burial.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

"religion brings many people comfort"


always gets brought up but with little or no actual evidence

Pretending that everythiung will be ok (it wornt) that you will go to heaven and see loved ones (you wont) that praying will help (it wont) that Jesus will come back and save the world (he wont)

is just that, pretending, and lying to yourself about anything wont comfort you

the 20,000 men who died on day one of WWI im sure all prayed to "god" to help them but they still all died horrific deaths and guess what, they are still dead

etc

There are no atheists in a foxhole, LT.

You can't dismiss faith if you don't know what it is. It's like dissing the English language without being able to speak it.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Redway

Do you get a kick out of being so insensitive?

reality has no feelings

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Livia

There are no atheists in a foxhole, LT.

You can't dismiss faith if you don't know what it is. It's like dissing the English language without being able to speak it.

faith is a nasty word for superstition and believing in stuff with no evidence

its not a word i am fond of

and yes there are, id imagine a lot of those who survived the 2 wars realised that there was no God and felt betrayed

[Redway]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

reality has no feelings

Doesn’t kill to show a bit of tact when you’re talking about touchy things like death.

Or do you just prefer being as insensitive as possible to show us all what a hardcore rationalist you are?

[Livia]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

faith is a nasty word for superstition and believing in stuff with no evidence

its not a word i am fond of

and yes there are, id imagine a lot of those who survived the 2 wars realised that there was no God and felt betrayed

I'm sorry that it's not a word you're fond of, LT, but regardless... faith isn't something you understand and that's no reason for me to stop using the word. I wish I could explain it to you or that you could feel it for yourself but you're so rabidly against it you'd never even try to understand.

So I'll continue to read how religious people are deluded and a bit stupid... and feel kind of sorry you're so angry about other people's beliefs.

Did you see the Prince Charles concert thing on TV last night? Rowan Atkinson? Hilarious...

[parmnion]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I didn't watch the programme but do you think it's a connection to god or that they don't want to be ostracized by their families etc?

it definatly seemed like a connection to god rather than any form of persecution.

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by Livia

The fundamentalists of those religions discriminate... the extremists... But there are rabbis who will bless your gay marriage, some Christian vicars will even marry gay couples. I rarely meet a contemporary person of faith who believes God made a mistake with gay people. And frankly, if they're going to discriminate against people for being gay then they're not my kind of people.

Just a word about your first para, 2S... No ringletted Frommer is goinging round to anyone's house to kill them or there'd be a whole pile of Corbynites awaiting burial.

Haven't had a chance to talk to all those progressives but I wonder how far their acceptance goes? Do they still think homosexuality is a sin, but we're all sinners etc. That's the line the pope takes for example. I.e. they'd happily embrace homos etc but still think we're wrong about our sex lives, just politely not say it?
Re. your second para, you know that I had Islamist terrorists in mind, but ta for the mental image Would choking them on matzo (no water allowed) be the method of killing?

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by parmnion

it definatly seemed like a connection to god rather than any form of persecution.

Connection to religion rather than god.
I'd say most homosexuals battle internal homophobia. Usually it's "gifted" to them by the hetoronormative world around them, sometimes reinforced by religion.
When coming out sometimes coming out to yourself is the hardest bit. Truly accepting who you are sexually and be ok with it.
So you can be gay and be a homophobe full of self-loathing.

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Livia

I'm sorry that it's not a word you're fond of, LT, but regardless... faith isn't something you understand and that's no reason for me to stop using the word. I wish I could explain it to you or that you could feel it for yourself but you're so rabidly against it you'd never even try to understand.

So I'll continue to read how religious people are deluded and a bit stupid... and feel kind of sorry you're so angry about other people's beliefs.

Did you see the Prince Charles concert thing on TV last night? Rowan Atkinson? Hilarious...

Part of it’s him baiting. As per.

[TwentyOneThrones]

I mean if God could truly fix my Gayness, I'd be at those church doors as soon as possible.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by TwentyOneThrones

I mean if God could truly fix my Gayness, I'd be at those church doors as soon as possible.

Which "God"?

[parmnion]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

Connection to religion rather than god.
I'd say most homosexuals battle internal homophobia. Usually it's "gifted" to them by the hetoronormative world around them, sometimes reinforced by religion.
When coming out sometimes coming out to yourself is the hardest bit. Truly accepting who you are sexually and be ok with it.
So you can be gay and be a homophobe full of self-loathing.

I don't buy any of that.. You can't blame straight people for a gay persons self loathing..

Gay people seem to have separated themselves from society rather than society shunning them.gay bars, pride marches, flags n banners...

So more and more they isolate themselves, staying amongst their own...society having less and less of an impact on their day to day lives, yet still able to blame anyone but themselves for their unhappiness..

[Redway]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Which "God"?

What drives a core rationalist like you to these threads in the first place?

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by parmnion

I don't buy any of that.. You can't blame straight people for a gay persons self loathing..

Gay people seem to have separated themselves from society rather than society shunning them.gay bars, pride marches, flags n banners...

So more and more they isolate themselves, staying amongst their own...society having less and less of an impact on their day to day lives, yet still able to blame anyone but themselves for their unhappiness..

I'm talking about gay people before coming out who view their gayness as something to overcome bc it is not viewed favourably by society. True it is changing now, but even now it's not everywhere.
Young gay person grows up aware gayness is used as an insult at school, parents may want grandchildren, the list goes on. And so they develop self-loathing of that part of themselves and wish they could be straight not to disappoint the expectations.
You're going on about separation which largely does not exist. Sure there are gay venues etc but that's to do with providing safe spaces where there's no judgement if you want to kiss somebody or hold their hand.
For somebody supposedly interested in fighting for our rights you seem to have very little understanding of basic stuff, Parm.
And btw, coming out and living openly as a gay person has a huge positive impact. Gay people are not unhappy as you seem to be saying.

[Maru]

Originally Posted by parmnion

Part 2 was on last night, it shocked me that it is actually people volountary going to the pastor to be "cured"



Makes you think that some people have a stronger connection to god than they do
with or for their sexuality.

That doesn't surprise me at all and I was going to post about something in that area.

I was going to post something to this effect. I'm not surprised at all. I think questions about the origins of sexuality, our minds, etc are all questions we all ask. Even outside of a sexuality POV.

Though I think it's a gray area for religion to provide "therapy" services. Even people with actual paperwork/licenses can do real harm. I know someone who a friend is seeing who is telling him things like he and this girl are on the same soul plane or some irrelevant nonsense. She used that to explain the intense attraction, when there were clearly other reasons for his obsessive behavior stemming from a very bad divorce. She is licensed.

I think most non-hetero folk innerly know when the switch is not movable. It's not going to be "cured" because it "just is". I don't think that God discourages questioning. If that person needs to have that "confrontation" with the Lord to get to the next stage of life, then I think let them. Some people feel a huge sense of support and comradery in their religious community... my thought, if we don't feel that way coming away from even simple service, then we're not in the place we need to be. The idea of a gay person going to conversion though out of self-loathing though is a recipe for disaster. So that's where I'm not sure I'm supportive or not of "gay conversion"... I can understand seeking support services while dealing with coming out for instance. That would be a real boon. However, conversion would only seem to attract folk who are coming from a damnation POV... and that does feel like it would send a Salem-esk vibe to the "flock".

Originally Posted by Livia

I'm sorry that it's not a word you're fond of, LT, but regardless... faith isn't something you understand and that's no reason for me to stop using the word. I wish I could explain it to you or that you could feel it for yourself but you're so rabidly against it you'd never even try to understand.

So I'll continue to read how religious people are deluded and a bit stupid... and feel kind of sorry you're so angry about other people's beliefs.

Did you see the Prince Charles concert thing on TV last night? Rowan Atkinson? Hilarious...

I'm in the same frame of mind, Livia. I don't expect other people to understand. And yes, that means also tolerating other people's POVs. We don't have to agree on everything.

[parmnion]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

I'm talking about gay people before coming out who view their gayness as something to overcome bc it is not viewed favourably by society. True it is changing now, but even now it's not everywhere.
Young gay person grows up aware gayness is used as an insult at school, parents may want grandchildren, the list goes on. And so they develop self-loathing of that part of themselves and wish they could be straight not to disappoint the expectations.
You're going on about separation which largely does not exist. Sure there are gay venues etc but that's to do with providing safe spaces where there's no judgement if you want to kiss somebody or hold their hand.
For somebody supposedly interested in fighting for our rights you seem to have very little understanding of basic stuff, Parm.
And btw, coming out and living openly as a gay person has a huge positive impact. Gay people are not unhappy as you seem to be saying.

You brought unhappiness into the discussion so no winder you use the hang your head smiley


Surely its more shame in the family home rather than society itself that makes the majority of people afraid to come out, come out.

[Maru]

Originally Posted by parmnion

Surely its more shame in the family home rather than society itself that makes the majority of people afraid to come out, come out.

Yeah I kind of agree with this. There's lots of things many of us are "accosted" for in society relating to stigmas growing up... part of becoming a whole person is rebutting and saying f** society and what it feels.

Though if your childhood was not supportive, it's very difficult to get off the ground. The emphasis shouldn't be on fixing "society" though, because society is not "fixable" and can't be micromanaged in that way... but rather, finding like-minded folk who will support those individuals and help guide them on their path.

I would think the lack of these types of role-models are more the issue. In my experience though, it seems many people prefer a victim-narrative than paving their own way. The problem is when it's most of us claiming dire need in some manner, it's not very good for the social fabric. I read a statistic yesterday, that nearly 40% of kids hitting 21 (or something like that) were born to unwed mothers... I knew it was high, but not quite that high.