[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

I've written about this before but when my Grandad died he promised if there was anything on the "other side", he would come back and tell me. I spent 6 months ****ting it after he died that he would be sat on my edge of my bed in the middle of the night.....but nothing.

Then when my mum was in the hospice about 24 hours before she died, the weirdest thing happened. She had been completely unresponsive for 2 days, breathing but no reaction to anything around her. She hadn't been with it for around a week but for 2 days there was nothing. However, she opened her eyes, looked into the corner.of the room, smiled and put her arms up as if she was hugging someone, she didn't look at any of us and as soon as her arms.met she was out of it again. One of the hospice nurses said similar things happen quite often with people near death and some say it's when previously passed loved ones come to "get" their spirits / souls, whatever.

Now I know.its probably some brain activity triggered by approaching death but I would love to think it was her dad coming to greet her. She died about 24 hours after that happened. My heart says there's something after, my head says there isn't.

TLDR : I'm on the fence

Fascinating read that.

So many things even from my teens I've come across has convinced me of more after human physical death.

I agree with the conflicts of mind and heart too.

However, already in my life,.I find my best decisions and how I approach issues, are the ones from my heart.

The mind is too practical and clinical mostly and often when I let my mind rule my heart.
They are my less good choices.

Great read AnnieK, thanks for posting it.

[LeatherTrumpet]

lets just deal with some science and facts that we all live our lives by and run the universe we live in

Youtube video

[Redway]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

lets just deal with some science and facts that we all live our lives by and run the universe we live in

Youtube video

Let’s have a bit of respect for people’s opinions going forward.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Redway

Let’s have a bit of respect for people’s opinions going forward.

people can believe any stuff they want but there already is a scientific answer and its one that the laws of science that run the universe are based on

now you can either accept them or think that they are all wrong and that some anecdote is right - entirely your choice of course

[Redway]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

people can believe any stuff they want but there already is a scientific answer and its one that the laws of science that run the universe are based on

now you can either accept them or think that they are all wrong and that some anecdote is right - entirely your choice of course

What rigid dogmatists fail to understand is that nothing’s proven for an absolute fact. Nothing.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Redway

What rigid dogmatists fail to understand is that nothing’s proven for an absolute fact. Nothing.

so we can wexect to see you jump out an airplane with no parachute?


refute that pesky gravity and biology and physics

[Redway]

Okay.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Youtube video

[Redway]

We don’t have the same background or experiences re. spirituality and it shows.

[Livia]

Like I said earlier, just weeks after my husband died I was on a thread like this with people telling me to accept that when people die they just rot in the ground, with no thought to what those left behind go through. I mean, if that's what you believe, fine. But I'm so tired of people stating stuff as fact because a scientist said it. No one knows for sure, none of us will have a clue what happens until we shuffle off this mortal.... and that is the truth.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Livia

Like I said earlier, just weeks after my husband died I was on a thread like this with people telling me to accept that when people die they just rot in the ground, with no thought to what those left behind go through. I mean, if that's what you believe, fine. But I'm so tired of people stating stuff as fact because a scientist said it. No one knows for sure, none of us will have a clue what happens until we shuffle off this mortal.... and that is the truth.

Id rather listen to hundreds of years of peer reviewed scientific reasearch, research that has doubled life expentancy in the last 100 years and got us to the moon, than some book written 5000 years ago or an anecdote.

when people go into hospital they rely on science and human knowledge they dont get cured by bibles or praying, or a wise anecdote

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Redway

What rigid dogmatists fail to understand is that nothing’s proven for an absolute fact. Nothing.

There is no such thing as absolute fact, that much is true, the entire universe could (quite easily) be a dream or illusion.

However,

There being nonsuch thing as absolute certainty does not mean that all possibilities are assigned an equal share of probability. Which is something that I personally find a lot of specifically religious people (rather than openly spiritual people) fail to understand.

So whilst Christian heaven, reincarnation, or the idea that we all spring violently into another dimension via LT's butt hole are all theoretically possible, that doesn't make them probable, and in my opinion, any organised religious concept of afterlife is accurate is so highly improbable that it becomes functionally false.

The only viable (probable) answers are 1) there's simply nothing, or 2) it's something no one has thought of yet and that is likely beyond current human understanding completely.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Livia

Like I said earlier, just weeks after my husband died I was on a thread like this with people telling me to accept that when people die they just rot in the ground, with no thought to what those left behind go through. I mean, if that's what you believe, fine. But I'm so tired of people stating stuff as fact because a scientist said it. No one knows for sure, none of us will have a clue what happens until we shuffle off this mortal.... and that is the truth.

Livia if someone came onto an unrelated thread and said those things to someone who had experienced recent loss, or worse came onto a thread about that loss to say things like "I don't think there's an afterlife sorry" then that would be reprehensible and awful. But... If it's a thread that's specifically about people's opinions on the afterlife (or lack of) then I don't think people can really be expected to share anything other than their genuine opinion on that topic; and it's inevitable that people will not always be in the place to be involved in or read that sort of discussion and should just avoid.

[Smithy]

Where do ghosts fit into all this?

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Smithy

Where do ghosts fit into all this?

ever seen a black one, or one dressed in a hoody and Nike?

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Smithy

Where do ghosts fit into all this?

Some would say "the spirits of the dead lingering", others might argue that they're echoes in time, like memories stuck on a loop. Interestingly, you don't have to believe in anything supernatural or religious to believe in the second type of "ghost", you only have to understand that "time" is more complicated than it seems...

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Livia if someone came onto an unrelated thread and said those things to someone who had experienced recent loss, or worse came onto a thread about that loss to say things like "I don't think there's an afterlife sorry" then that would be reprehensible and awful. But... If it's a thread that's specifically about people's opinions on the afterlife (or lack of) then I don't think people can really be expected to share anything other than their genuine opinion on that topic; and it's inevitable that people will not always be in the place to be involved in or read that sort of discussion and should just avoid.

You weren't here at the time so I have no real interest in you explaining to me why I was wrong.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Id rather listen to hundreds of years of peer reviewed scientific reasearch, research that has doubled life expentancy in the last 100 years and got us to the moon, than some book written 5000 years ago or an anecdote.

when people go into hospital they rely on science and human knowledge they dont get cured by bibles or praying, or a wise anecdote

It was sixty years between learning to fly and landing on the moon.... we have truly been here for an insignificant moment in the scheme of things. we know **** all, Trumpet. And after all those triumphs you've stated, what have we done to the planet in the course of it? Oh yeah, we're all really clever us humans.

And you know, I don't think I mentioned religion. We were talking about what happens when you die. And like I said... no one really knows. And beating people down with what is essentially your own unfounded opinion doesn't make you any more right.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Livia

Like I said earlier, just weeks after my husband died I was on a thread like this with people telling me to accept that when people die they just rot in the ground, with no thought to what those left behind go through. I mean, if that's what you believe, fine. But I'm so tired of people stating stuff as fact because a scientist said it. No one knows for sure, none of us will have a clue what happens until we shuffle off this mortal.... and that is the truth.

Absolutely right and very well said.

I don't think actually either that all Scientists would discount the possibility of something after death.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Absolutely right and very well said.

I don't think actually either that all Scientists would discount the possibility of something after death.

I always talk about my cousin who is a physicist and a devout Jew. There are plenty of religious scientists... even thought I've had a few discussions on here with people who refuse to believe a devoutly religious person could also be a successful scientist. I don't understand why a person's personal view has to be knocked if it's different from someone else's. We might all be right! Or we might all be wrong... there's only one way to find out and I don't think any of us are ready to find out for sure.

[bitontheslide]

i was asked the question if I believed in the afterlife just after a close relative died. I don't think it is something that one can answer because it means so many things both spiritual and scientific. You are formed from your biological parents, so children by definition are a form of afterlife. Ask someone else and they could easily take another definition.

For those that are a bit older, how many times have people thought, what would my old Dad have thought of that, or acted in a particular circumstance. That is also a form of afterlife. A spiritual definition doesn't have to be the only viable option.

[Livia]

Agree with all that Bots. It's a massive question, isn't it.

[Elliot]

Nobody knows what happens for sure, but why put your eggs in the basket of a 5000 year old book that has been proven to be scientifically inaccurate?

[Redway]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Id rather listen to hundreds of years of peer reviewed scientific reasearch, research that has doubled life expentancy in the last 100 years and got us to the moon, than some book written 5000 years ago or an anecdote.

when people go into hospital they rely on science and human knowledge they dont get cured by bibles or praying, or a wise anecdote

Having scientific views is one thing but rudely telling someone who’s lost a spouse that she’ll never see him again just because you’re a conc. rationalist is low. That’s all I meant when I excluded hardline rationalists from this thread initially but that didn’t go down well with swathes of this forum.

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

There is no such thing as absolute fact, that much is true, the entire universe could (quite easily) be a dream or illusion.

However,

There being nonsuch thing as absolute certainty does not mean that all possibilities are assigned an equal share of probability. Which is something that I personally find a lot of specifically religious people (rather than openly spiritual people) fail to understand.

So whilst Christian heaven, reincarnation, or the idea that we all spring violently into another dimension via LT's butt hole are all theoretically possible, that doesn't make them probable, and in my opinion, any organised religious concept of afterlife is accurate is so highly improbable that it becomes functionally false.

The only viable (probable) answers are 1) there's simply nothing, or 2) it's something no one has thought of yet and that is likely beyond current human understanding completely.

Like I say we’re not all empiricists. Personal experience in the spiritual realm isn’t something you can shake no matter how much you try. Some people live outside of academia and feel things in a deeper realm.