[Ninastar]

Originally Posted by Tom!

Very well said.

thank you tom... glad to see that you're so understanding for your age

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by lostalex

i watched ender's game last night. We need an Ender to wipe these ****ers out once and for all.

I watched that last night too, thought if was crap

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Ninastar

Do you not realise that if we don't kill these people, they will continue to kill innocent people for the rest of their lives?

They kill muslims, christians (they've easily killed millions over the past 50 years), jews, non religions people, anyone... they have absolutely no care about who they kill.

you can cry and moan about all the people killed by us horrid brits/americans/white people, whatever, but at the end of the day, just as many people (probably more) would die if we didn't intervene.

You have absolutely NO idea what you are talking about when you make these posts about the war.

What are you, 14? You've got a lot to learn... A big wake up call is needed for you.

Maybe when you're older, you'll understand what true terrorism is.

There is absolutely no such thing as 'peace'. It will never ever happen. And do you know whose fault that is?

Terrorists.

People who kill people for no reason.

Stop trying to look so open minded and different, when you don't even know the half of what has happened of the past 100 years or so.

No one wants a war. Yet sadly, we sometimes have to.

Well put

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I watched that last night too, thought if was crap

well it was a crap movie, and i totally predicted the ending half way through. but still... I support use of drones to wipe out these evil ****ers. I don't support the use of kids and manipulating them with video games though...

I meant a willing Ender.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Tom!

Does that really matter if we're killing people who will continue to kill innocent people unless we stop them?

Yes, it matters.

Completely agree that there is no point trying to be open minded with IS but at the same time we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that the Iraq invasion was a massive mistake and that IS are to some extent a product of western foreign policy failure in the region

[Kazanne]

He can't be that badly injured as he has beheaded someone today hasn't he?

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kyle

Starving yourself to death is not the same as being executed by the state. You can mince your words as much as you want mate but if your bloodlust extends to executing people or bumping them off and then falsifying evidence to make it look like they killed themselves as you said earlier then congratulations you just stooped 'almost' as low as they did. That's without even going into how that system would be open to abuse at government level.

It's nothing personal Kylle - just a difference of opinion.

He died as a result of going on a hunger strike for his 'cause' and while it is different to actually being executed by the state, I used it merely to illustrate my point of view about 'Martyrs' because he was immediately hailed as one by the IRA, but it did not result in masses of recruits to their cause, nor did it affect the terrorist war one iota, and the memory of this 'Martyr' was very short lived outside the hard core of fanatics within his organisation.

I make no apologies for my view that the bastards should be covertly tortured in order to extract information, because such information could potentially save thousands of innocent lives as well as enable this war to end early in our favour.

As to bloodlust, then if that is what I am accused of so be it, but in my opinion it is these evil madmen who have the bloodlust, and I prefer to just regard myself as a realist who 'has seen' the terrifying future if we do not abandon our sense of civilised, moral superiority, and start doing whatever it takes to comprehensively defeat these evil lunatics.

The difference between 'us' and 'them' is that they are so warped that they are willing to die to achieve their aims. This being so, we should ensure that once captured these bastards should indeed die -but to help us achieve our aims instead of theirs.

In my view I am not an alarmist - just a realist, and just as my viewpoints are regarded by some as 'radical' , I am equally perplexed by their viewpoints. In fact, I am reminded of the British 'Raj' dressed to the nines in Tuxedos and cummerbunds, and pearls and evening dresses, in the Raffles Hotel in World War 2 Singapore. When the first gunfire sounded as the Japanese advanced, they danced on - convinced that no such horrors could ever encroach upon their 'oh so civilised' world. I wonder how many times they rued such complacency while they were being daily abused by their Japanese captors in Changi POW camp - those who survived anyway.

Anyway, we are all entitled to our points of view and this is mine.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

He can't be that badly injured as he has beheaded someone today hasn't he?

Yeah been a couple of videos released today of an American being beheaded as well as him leading a mass beheading of Syrian soldiers, so either they were filmed beforehand or as you say he wasn't that badly injured after all

[arista]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

He can't be that badly injured as he has beheaded someone today hasn't he?

Kaz thats a recording Not Live
made weeks back

[sassysocks]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Yes, it matters.

Completely agree that there is no point trying to be open minded with IS but at the same time we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that the Iraq invasion was a massive mistake and that IS are to some extent a product of western foreign policy failure in the region

So the rest of the world, who have the means, should not intervene to protect the ordinary people of a country such as Iraq and just let the home grown Iraqi dictators and bully boys terrorise and murder their own. Wouldn't all the bully boys out there just love that. We did not create this mess, the terrorists did.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by sassysocks

So the rest of the world, who have the means, should not intervene to protect the ordinary people of a country such as Iraq and just let the home grown Iraqi dictators and bully boys terrorise and murder their own. Wouldn't all the bully boys out there just love that. We did not create this mess, the terrorists did.

So the Iraq war wasn't a mistake? It was a necessary humanitarian intervention with the purest of motives? Sad as it may be there are dozens of countries with dictatorial systems - some of them are our great allies. 'Nations have no permanent friends or enemies, only permanent interests' - look at the way that Gaddafi was alternatively an enemy, then a friend, then an enemy again. Same story with a lot of world leaders. And sad as it may also be a lot of the time these dictators are the only things keeping a lid on melting pots of religious and political tensions just waiting to boil over. Toppling Saddam opened up a power vacuum in Iraq which IS are now filling. Only post invasion did Iraq become such a haven for terrorists. It's the same story in Syria, suddenly we're not so desperate to see Assad removed because we have a common enemy. We used to be expected to cheerlead the death of Syrian soldiers who it was decided were just Assad's dogs massacring his people, not so much anymore.

[Livia]

I'm not sure we can excuse ISIL's reign of terror because of Iraq, a war we - the public - were led into on a lie despite massive public disapproval. ISIL have overstepped anything that could have led to any kind of understanding. They can't be negotiated with, they can't be reasoned with and they should be eradicated.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Livia

I'm not sure we can excuse ISIL's reign of terror because of Iraq, a war we - the public - were led into on a lie despite massive public disapproval. ISIL have overstepped anything that could have led to any kind of understanding. They can't be negotiated with, they can't be reasoned with and they should be eradicated.

There's a big difference between excusing and explaining though, it's not as though things happen in a vacuum with no context

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Livia

I'm not sure we can excuse ISIL's reign of terror because of Iraq, a war we - the public - were led into on a lie despite massive public disapproval. ISIL have overstepped anything that could have led to any kind of understanding. They can't be negotiated with, they can't be reasoned with and they should be eradicated.

[GypsyGoth]

With a name like Jihadi John, it's little wonder that he's fighting on the same side as the terrorists.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by MTVN

There's a big difference between excusing and explaining though, it's not as though things happen in a vacuum with no context

With respect MTVN - because I always do respect your point of view - I'm tired of people trying to explain why this is happening, in effect excusing ISIL and making it all about what the West has done as if they have a right to carry out these act in retaliation. There is no excuse for what they ISIL do and there is no explanation for it apart from this: ISIL are a bunch of murdering terrorists who will do what they do because they hate anyone who isn't with them. Killing children in front of their parents, making people watch as their wives and daughters are raped and then murdered, all the terrible, sickening things I've heard about ISIL since it all began makes me wonder how anyone can, with a straight face, say there is any kind of explanation for what they're doing.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Livia

With respect MTVN - because I always do respect your point of view - I'm tired of people trying to explain why this is happening, in effect excusing ISIL and making it all about what the West has done as if they have a right to carry out these act in retaliation. There is no excuse for what they ISIL do and there is no explanation for it apart from this: ISIL are a bunch of murdering terrorists who will do what they do because they hate anyone who isn't with them. Killing children in front of their parents, making people watch as their wives and daughters are raped and then murdered, all the terrible, sickening things I've heard about ISIL since it all began makes me wonder how anyone can, with a straight face, say there is any kind of explanation for what they're doing.

I wasn't trying to explain their actions though, I'm talking about explaining their rise; why they have managed to recruit so many followers and why opposition forces and Middle Eastern governments have been so impotent to stop them. I'm not going to disagree with your description of IS - their brand of extremism is more murderous than anything we've seen in the last few decades - but in order to counter their threat we do need to contextualise it imo. It's not about explaining what they've done necessarily, it's about explaining why they have been able to carry out their atrocities and swallow up so much territory.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by MTVN

I wasn't trying to explain their actions though, I'm talking about explaining their rise; why they have managed to recruit so many followers and why opposition forces and Middle Eastern governments have been so impotent to stop them. I'm not going to disagree with your description of IS - their brand of extremism is more murderous than anything we've seen in the last few decades - but in order to counter their threat we do need to contextualise it imo. It's not about explaining what they've done necessarily, it's about explaining why they have been able to carry out their atrocities and swallow up so much territory.

Went off half cocked there, didn't I. Sorry MTVN, I got the wrong end of the stick.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Livia

Went off half cocked there, didn't I. Sorry MTVN, I got the wrong end of the stick.

No worries lol, I probs wasn't very clear before

[Mitchell]

Hope he dies a slow and painful death.