[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I may have seen it, I definitely watched a documentary on Scientology but I don't know what it was called. It's ****ed up isn't it? How on earth did they manage to rope massive celebs like Tom Cruise and John Travolta in as well?

They talk about Tom Cruise and John Travolta in the film (and imply they kept them and have them promote the church because of 'information' they have on them)... they basically make their followers divulge secrets and things which they keep on file before allowing them to progress through the ranks of the church and learn the secrets of the church etc... (and they have people employed to use that information to blackmail dissenters) it's all really strange and complicated and I probably can't explain it as well as the film does It's all to do with manipulation, control and blackmail though basically. They also have a 'celebrity department' where they have people employed to recruit celebrities... I can't really remeber the ins and outs though, it's been a while since I saw it so I might watch it again

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

They talk about Tom Cruise and John Travolta in the film (and imply they kept them and have them promote the church because of 'information' they have on them)... they basically make their followers divulge secrets and things which they keep on file before allowing them to progress through the ranks of the church and learn the secrets of the church etc... (and they have people employed to use that information to blackmail dissenters) it's all really strange and complicated and I probably can't explain it as well as the film does It's all to do with manipulation, control and blackmail though basically. They also have a 'celebrity department' where they have people employed to recruit celebrities... I can't really remeber the ins and outs though, it's been a while since I saw it so I might watch it again

Yeah that sounds familiar, I think I may have seen it. But what I mean is what on Earth could they actually have on them that are blackmail-able enough to devout their whole life to that crap

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Yeah that sounds familiar, I think I may have seen it. But what I mean is what on Earth could they actually have on them that are blackmail-able enough to devout their whole life to that crap

I don't know, I've heard rumours that it's because they're gay though, if it is that they might think that it would ruin their careers/family life etc if it came out.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

I don't know, I've heard rumours that it's because they're gay though, if it is that they might think that it would ruin their careers/family life etc if it came out.

Meh, is ruining your life by being involved with that group better though? It's not like it's a big deal being gay in this day and age

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Meh, is ruining your life by buying involved with that group better though? It's not like it's a big deal being gay in this day and age

I'd say it isn't, but I suppose they could have been brainwashed? Also, say it was true and they came out with it now, and said that they'd only promoted the church because they were being blackmailed etc (assuming it's true obviously) I think it would ruin them. It's not just that they'd be coming out as gay but it's all the lies they'd told to people in promoting the church etc, no one would have any respect for them.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by jaxie

He was giving his views and opinion, I didn't see him claiming to be anyones head or that he was qualified to. Though I'd be more worried about those who think they are qualified to tell you there is a god. Or speak for one and declare what said deity thinks you should be/do.

Most religions don't force you to join, you know. My own religion definitely doesn't and people have been trying to shut us down for 5,000 years.

No one has any definitive proof one way or another so everyone should be free to choose. And people should respect other people's freedom to choose even if they don't respect the religion itself. If people have faith, good for them. If they don't, good for them too. What I object to is the CONSTANT suggestion that people who do have faith are non-thinking, closed-minded morons. Because frankly, I consider myself to be an intelligent being, more than able to hold my own with anyone on this forum... and I have faith. I've never posted a thread ridiculing non-believers. Shame that isn't a two-way street.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

Most religions don't force you to join, you know. My own religion definitely doesn't and people have been trying to shut us down for 5,000 years.

No one has any definitive proof one way or another so everyone should be free to choose. And people should respect other people's freedom to choose even if they don't respect the religion itself. If people have faith, good for them. If they don't, good for them too. What I object to is the CONSTANT suggestion that people who do have faith are non-thinking, closed-minded morons. Because frankly, I consider myself to be an intelligent being, more than able to hold my own with anyone on this forum... and I have faith. I've never posted a thread ridiculing non-believers. Shame that isn't a two-way street.

With all due respect Livia, most people are born into religion so it's not exactly freedom to choose, by the time they're free to choose they've already been brought up being taught their religion is fact so have alot less of a chance of really deciding for themselves on it

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

With all due respect Livia, most people are born into religion so it's not exactly freedom to choose, by the time they're free to choose they've already been brought up being taught their religion is fact so have alot less of a chance of really deciding for themselves on it

Well, I disagree. From my personal perspective I was never pushed into religion and could have walked away at any time. In fact, most religions don't hold you in handcuffs. I'm sure there are plenty of people in Ireland born into Catholicism who don't practise now. And that's fine if that's what they want. No one should be forced to do anything.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

Well, I disagree. From my personal perspective I was never pushed into religion and could have walked away at any time. In fact, most religions don't hold you in handcuffs. I'm sure there are plenty of people in Ireland born into Catholicism who don't practise now. And that's fine if that's what they want. No one should be forced to do anything.

Sure but still over 90% of our "state" run schools are catholic and those who identify as atheist/no religion are always bottom of school enrollment lists. I also disagree with you about the free choice involved in religions. I don't know about your personal experience of course but it's not just a coincidence that -as Ricky gervais says in the video- geography plays a huge part in what religion a person will be/if they have a religion at all

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Livia

Most religions don't force you to join, you know. My own religion definitely doesn't and people have been trying to shut us down for 5,000 years.

No one has any definitive proof one way or another so everyone should be free to choose. And people should respect other people's freedom to choose even if they don't respect the religion itself. If people have faith, good for them. If they don't, good for them too. What I object to is the CONSTANT suggestion that people who do have faith are non-thinking, closed-minded morons. Because frankly, I consider myself to be an intelligent being, more than able to hold my own with anyone on this forum... and I have faith. I've never posted a thread ridiculing non-believers. Shame that isn't a two-way street.

Most people are raised within religions so are to a large extent conditioned to belief by those around them unless the god manifested to the individual personally and said believe in me dear. I'm sorry if that offends your feelings but it is a fact that people teach children/people religion. I haven't heard of many people who actually say their god told them to do it and usually those who do are often in prison!

I went to a church school myself and have seen religious conditioning first hand. So while no one is saying people are forced to believe there is definitely someone or someones who puts that faith and way of worship in your head and it isn't god.

I can assure you I haven't suggested anyone is a moron or ridiculed anyone. This conversation began because you seemed to be offended by the link and accused the person in it of things they didn't actually say. All of those things you think are being suggested haven't been. I often find your posts amusing and witty.

I fully respect anyone's right to believe in anything if it makes them happy. I am definitely not the person getting defensive.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Livia

Most religions don't force you to join, you know. My own religion definitely doesn't and people have been trying to shut us down for 5,000 years.

No one has any definitive proof one way or another so everyone should be free to choose. And people should respect other people's freedom to choose even if they don't respect the religion itself. If people have faith, good for them. If they don't, good for them too. What I object to is the CONSTANT suggestion that people who do have faith are non-thinking, closed-minded morons. Because frankly, I consider myself to be an intelligent being, more than able to hold my own with anyone on this forum... and I have faith. I've never posted a thread ridiculing non-believers. Shame that isn't a two-way street.

Lucky yesterday Ricky did not do that. He just stuck to logic and reason

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Sure but still over 90% of our "state" run schools are catholic and those who identify as atheist/no religion are always bottom of school enrollment lists. I also disagree with you about the free choice involved in religions. I don't know about your personal experience of course but it's not just a coincidence that -as Ricky gervais says in the video- geography plays a huge part in what religion a person will be/if they have a religion at all

Exactly I would say in certain religious communities should someone suggest they would like to leave that lifestyle behind for another there would be quite a different reaction from 'Oh , ok then'.
Disaffiliation can and has resulted in being shunned or worse :/

[Toy Soldier]

If, starting tomorrow, every baby born was kept in the dark about religion (somehow) until reaching the age of being able to make a rational choice, organised religion would be dead in a generation. Simple as that really. It's kept alive through indoctrination, whether that be subtle low-level immersion from birth or harder conversion later in life.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

If, starting tomorrow, every baby born was kept in the dark about religion (somehow) until reaching the age of being able to make a rational choice, organised religion would be dead in a generation. Simple as that really. It's kept alive through indoctrination, whether that be subtle low-level immersion from birth or harder conversion later in life.

I agree with you 100%. This would be a great social experiment would be fascinated to see the outcome of a target group raised with no religious affiliation and then exposed to a choice.

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Oh I went through a phase of being totally obsessed with Scientology, so bizarre

But what makes Scientology and "cults" any different from other religions though? Scientologists shape the beliefs of their followers? so does every other religion

Uhhh.. the church doesn't call you, stalk you, threaten you, pressure you for hours on end to donate money and will even call the bank for you to get you a line of credit, "expose" you to your family, chase you down for talking bad about them... it's very much voluntary to be in a normal organized religion. If you go and stop showing up, nobody will call you. Scientology and FLDS will try ruin to your life for trying to leave... especially if you don't do it quietly.

[the truth]

wow so many people here conditioned and brainwashed into radical atheism....these people should have been allowed free choice

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Maru

Uhhh.. the church doesn't call you, stalk you, threaten you, pressure you for hours on end to donate money and will even call the bank for you to get you a line of credit, "expose" you to your family, chase you down for talking bad about them... it's very much voluntary to be in a normal organized religion. If you go and stop showing up, nobody will call you. Scientology and FLDS will try ruin to your life for trying to leave... especially if you don't do it quietly.

Catholicism has mellowed out quite a lot over the years though

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by the truth

wow so many people here conditioned and brainwashed into radical atheism....these people should have been allowed free choice

I blame my parents lack of religious indoctrination skills.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by jaxie

I blame my parents lack of religious indoctrination skills.

Same, they failed in their quest although tbh I don't think their own hearts were really in it either

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Maru

Uhhh.. the church doesn't call you, stalk you, threaten you, pressure you for hours on end to donate money and will even call the bank for you to get you a line of credit, "expose" you to your family, chase you down for talking bad about them... it's very much voluntary to be in a normal organized religion. If you go and stop showing up, nobody will call you. Scientology and FLDS will try ruin to your life for trying to leave... especially if you don't do it quietly.

You've never heard of Jehovahs witnesses then?

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

If, starting tomorrow, every baby born was kept in the dark about religion (somehow) until reaching the age of being able to make a rational choice, organised religion would be dead in a generation. Simple as that really. It's kept alive through indoctrination, whether that be subtle low-level immersion from birth or harder conversion later in life.

yes I cant really see young people in their 20s going "hey have you heard about Judaism, i think Im going to get a piece of that bronze age middle eastern cult"

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by the truth

wow so many people here conditioned and brainwashed into radical atheism....these people should have been allowed free choice

I was sent to Sunday School and learned all about Jesus and friends, actually. I just figured out that it was a story eventually. Around the time I stopped believing in Santa and the Tooth Fairy, I would imagine.

[Kizzy]

There are so many wonders though that are totally ignored by cherry picking religions, you can't ignore the need to record and pass on knowledge from milennia ago.. I hate that that is manipulated to exploit

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

There are so many wonders though that are totally ignored by cherry picking religions, you can't ignore the need to record and pass on knowledge from milennia ago.. I hate that that is manipulated to exploit

yes look at the last sentence in the Christian Bible

tells you all you need to know

smh

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I was sent to Sunday School and learned all about Jesus and friends, actually. I just figured out that it was a story eventually. Around the time I stopped believing in Santa and the Tooth Fairy, I would imagine.

yes nothing to learn at all in , sounds like a mis-spent youth..those horrible sunday schools telling stories and raising money for their communities and singing songs about peace and love....theyll be sending missionaries out next to cloth and feed the starving millions...appalling....if only our kids had all started drink and drugs instead