[Johnnyuk123]

That's one slippery old fish.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

So independence for the UK from the larger EU = hope, positivity and freedom while independence from Scotland from the larger UK = no chance / harsh realities? Hmmm. Surely anyone who truly believes in Brexit should champion Scottish independence (independence from the UK but also not remaining in the EU / re-entering).

Uh??? How did you educe that from my response to Greg's post?

Oh... I know... by taking my response out of context.

Scotland leaving the UK is TOTALLY different from the UK leaving the EU.

The UK has suffered a multi billion pound annual deficit with the EU for over 40 years.

Everything else aside, the UK SAVES that deficit ON TOP of it's annual 'Joining Fee' of billions too.

Scotland has enjoyed BILLIONS of pounds by way of subsidies from the UK for decades.

Everything else aside, Scotland will LOSE those billions if they become independent.

On top of which, they will have to start paying BILLIONS per annum to the EU.

This 'Double Whammy', is what prompted my question to Greg, about how long he expects the unique benefits which Scotland enjoys to continue for once the realities of all this begins to take effect.

[Johnnyuk123]

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

So independence for the UK from the larger EU = hope, positivity and freedom while independence from Scotland from the larger UK = no chance / harsh realities? Hmmm. Surely anyone who truly believes in Brexit should champion Scottish independence (independence from the UK but also not remaining in the EU / re-entering).

Scotland is of course fully entitled to do what it wants.

In my opinion, it seems serious hypocrasy to want to leave the UK while desperately adhering to the EU. It simply does not make sense.

Scotland is a tiny country who already has a large deficit, and without being able to count on oil revenue, don't seem to have a viable way of financially sustaining themselves apart from that. Unless you know a secret we don't? I care about what happens to Scotland, you're family of course I do. Does Tusk think you are family? Nah. Look at Greece, Italy, Spain and the fiscal fist forced upon them. Look at how Ireland were treated over the Lisbon treaty.

I can tell you things I don't like about the EU, what don't you like about the union? Why is the EU a better prospect for Scotland? I'd like to understand the issues but nothing specific seems to be given.

[Kizzy]

I think it's a very progressive move, this country has gone to the dogs, not sure why the warnings about evil clowns.... the worst are in govt atm :/

[Josy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

If the majority of people didn't want the SNP to be in Holyrood then the SNP wouldn't be in Holyrood. The same Scottish people voted them in... You can't have it both ways. If people were so strongly against Scottish independence then an independence-focussed party would have had no chance?

SNP only got voted in because people had lost all faith in the tories and labour and felt they had no other choice the majority never voted them in with any connections at all to another indy ref.

[Ammi]

...maybe for Scotland..(some Scottish people..)...the reasons for wanting their independence is much more historic reasons, similar to the RoI and the quest of NI as well...which isn't really something that could be applied in the same way to the EU and Brexit because that doesn't have the same historic connotations, it's something that was willingly joined and then something that was voted on leaving...I personally have no faith in that independence anyway...we'll make our own decisions..(well our politicians and financial people will...and we're dependant on those decisions being right and good for the country..)...so we won't be paying sums to the EU, but quite possibly paying similar amounts to secure alternative trade deals.../just shifting who we'r paying it all to and no benefit to the country's finances...except we have alienated ourselves somewhat from our neighbours/which never seems like a positive move...


..anyways one General Election and one EU referendum vote has been exhausting enough so I feel for the Scottish people to have had to go through an independence vote as well and then have to think about a second one possibility.../harrowing....

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Josy

SNP only got voted in because people had lost all faith in the tories and labour and felt they had no other choice the majority never voted them in with any connections at all to another indy ref.

Agree with this, Labour weren't a credible choice in the last election so it wasn't difficult to see the SNP would do well, Nicola was voted in more for her anti austerity measures than for her stance on independence particularly as the referendum was literally just over

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Agree with this, Labour weren't a credible choice in the last election so it wasn't difficult to see the SNP would do well, Nicola was voted in more for her anti austerity measures than for her stance on independence particularly as the referendum was literally just over

I agree with this, and with Josy.

[bitontheslide]

Offering the people a referendum on independence doesn't mean they will vote for it. I may have misread things, but i wouldn't say the Scottish people consider membership of the EU more important than union with the UK which seems to be the SNP's angle at the moment.

The Scottish people may well have voted in the majority in each region to remain in the EU, but those same people could equally be pro union with the UK, in fact, i would say it was more than likely

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Josy

SNP only got voted in because people had lost all faith in the tories and labour and felt they had no other choice the majority never voted them in with any connections at all to another indy ref.

So the Scottish people voted in the SNP because they have lost faith in Labour and (never had any faith in) the Tories and do not want to be ruled by them. Who happen to be the only two parties who will EVER realistically hold any power in Westminster. It doesn't make sense.

Nor does the idea that Scotland "has it good" in the UK because the Scottish government has been able to scrape together a few extra socialist policies, when the wider UK still has crippling inequality and cruelty at the core of its social existence. Westminster policies that have utterly DESTROYED small Scottish towns over the last 50 years. Scotland has been used as a guinea pig and dumping ground throughout the entire history of the Union. But we've had a few years of "free prescriptions and tuition fees" so it's all great? Come on.

[Alf]

I've just watched her speech, I couldn't get this New kids on the block song out of my head.

Youtube video

If it's not the women it's the children.

[T*]

byesies

[T*]

jk please dont haunt me ancestors

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

So the Scottish people voted in the SNP because they have lost faith in Labour and (never had any faith in) the Tories and do not want to be ruled by them. Who happen to be the only two parties who will EVER realistically hold any power in Westminster. It doesn't make sense.

Nor does the idea that Scotland "has it good" in the UK because the Scottish government has been able to scrape together a few extra socialist policies, when the wider UK still has crippling inequality and cruelty at the core of its social existence. Westminster policies that have utterly DESTROYED small Scottish towns over the last 50 years. Scotland has been used as a guinea pig and dumping ground throughout the entire history of the Union. But we've had a few years of "free prescriptions and tuition fees" so it's all great? Come on.

The EU common fisheries policy DESTROYED fishing communities in Scotland and Cornwall, Wales and other areas, and took away livelihoods. there are communities who have never recovered from the common fisheries policy, even today, and yet Scotland wants in bed with the EU? As others have suggested does it really boil down to historic hatred of England?

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by jaxie

The EU common fisheries policy DESTROYED fishing communities in Scotland and Cornwall, Wales and other areas, and took away livelihoods. there are communities who have never recovered from the common fisheries policy, even today, and yet Scotland wants in bed with the EU? As others have suggested does it really boil down to historic hatred of England?

There have been positives and negatives there; you could also point out the horrendous condition of the beaches and sea around Scotland (and the whole UK) before EU pollution regulations prompted them to be massively cleaned up.

Regardless: EU membership has very little to do with whether or not I think Scotland would be better off out from under Westminster. Westminster priority will always - ALWAYS - lie with London and the South of England. Scotland cannot and will not ever prosper under a London based government. It has been trashed by them, in countless ways, for centuries. Given the small population and level of resources, it would potentially have been one of the wealthiest small nations in the world, had all of those resources not already been siphoned south.

EU membership is another question. My personal instinct is that Scotland would be better off with an arrangement like Denmark, and really has a lot in common with the Scandinavian countries in general. Countries with similar population levels that have thrived with or alongside the EU.

[Johnnyuk123]

Didn't Sturgeon recently try to meet up with EU leaders and they simply ignored her? It's not looking good is it.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

There have been positives and negatives there; you could also point out the horrendous condition of the beaches and sea around Scotland (and the whole UK) before EU pollution regulations prompted them to be massively cleaned up.

Regardless: EU membership has very little to do with whether or not I think Scotland would be better off out from under Westminster. Westminster priority will always - ALWAYS - lie with London and the South of England. Scotland cannot and will not ever prosper under a London based government. It has been trashed by them, in countless ways, for centuries. Given the small population and level of resources, it would potentially have been one of the wealthiest small nations in the world, had all of those resources not already been siphoned south.

EU membership is another question. My personal instinct is that Scotland would be better off with an arrangement like Denmark, and really has a lot in common with the Scandinavian countries in general. Countries with similar population levels that have thrived with or alongside the EU.

EU over fishing in our waters made cod endangered. Not exactly environmentally good. We can never know if we would have adopted our own environmental clean up without the EU. Personally I doubt we would have kicked up our heels over it without them.

Doesnt having your own government assembly mean you aren't controlled directly from Westminster on many matters?

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Johnnyuk123

Didn't Sturgeon recently try to meet up with EU leaders and they simply ignored her? It's not looking good is it.

She tried to arrange some meetings, and had some meetings, in the immediate aftermath of the Brexit vote (within days / weeks). Some of the high profile figures turned her down on the grounds that it was "not the time" (in the chaos of the result) which was probably a fair assessment. It doesn't really have any bearing on n current or future events, chuckles.

[Johnnyuk123]

Scotland needs the UK. We don't need Scotland. IMO of course.

[erinp5]

The 5p bags will soon be Scottish currency !

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Johnnyuk123

Scotland needs the UK. We don't need Scotland. IMO of course.

London and the South (London 'burbs) doesn't need or want any of the rest of the UK. Should just be a city-state and have done with it.

[erinp5]

The SNP don't believe in a democratic vote
The referendum delivered a NO vote but the SNP ignore it .
The UK deliver an exit vote , the SNP ignore it .
They take part and influence the outcome of votes in the UK , but if the outcome is not of their choice...they ignore it ...simples.

[Johnnyuk123]

If Scotland wants independence so much so then they should go asap because if they have another vote and that fails they will then have another vote too infinity until they get the result they want. So save everyone here the bother of all this bollocks and just go. Then the rest of us can then make a law making sure that even with cap in hand Scotland are never allowed back into the UK.

[erinp5]

Originally Posted by Johnnyuk123

If Scotland wants independence so much so then they should go asap because if they have another vote and that fails they will then have another vote too infinity until they get the result they want. So save everyone here the bother of all this bollocks and just go. Then the rest of us can then make a law making sure that even with cap in hand Scotland are never allowed back into the UK.

I think you will find that Scotland said NO and want to remain in the UK , the people of Scotland answered the SNP question... the SNP can't accept the democratic vote .