[Kizzy]

What is the alternative to an independent Scotland? stay shackled to this heckhole?...Name one thing that still makes you proud to be from Britain, I just can't think of one.
I want to, it's not a nice feeling to feel so detached and despondent when imagining the future here. Especially as you know it could be so much better, I don't think Nicola Sturgeon thinks the govt has our best interests at heart and I agree.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Johnnyuk123

Whatever their problem is they need to get over it.

..isn't that the thing though Johnny...people don't just 'get over' things that they feel strongly about...if there is a 'problem' with the thoughts of some Scottish people at this time, then 'whatever their problem' doesn't apply but more discussing what that 'problem' is because it's only going to stay there as a problem and as a feeling of negative...with the vote of Brexit, the UK had a problem with the EU so they voted according to that problem and that vote meant a separation...it may be that Scotland will have another vote and it may mean another separation...?....it's always or often been an analogy of a marriage, hasn't it../a union...and no 'problem' would ever be solved or be worked on if a partner just dismissed it with ...get over yourself...if that's representative of an independent country who makes their own choices and has their own control etc, it feels like a pretty grim way to me....

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..isn't that the thing though Johnny...people don't just 'get over' things that they feel strongly about...if there is a 'problem' with the thoughts of some Scottish people at this time, then 'whatever their problem' doesn't apply but more discussing what that 'problem' is because it's only going to stay there as a problem and as a feeling of negative...with the vote of Brexit, the UK had a problem with the EU so they voted according to that problem and that vote meant a separation...it may be that Scotland will have another vote and it may mean another separation...?....it's always or often been an analogy of a marriage, hasn't it../a union...and no 'problem' would ever be solved or be worked on if a partner just dismissed it with ...get over yourself...if that's representative of an independent country who makes their own choices and has their own control etc, it feels like a pretty grim way to me....

Hey Ammi the problem that I find with the 'problem' Scots seem to have with the union is that I never seem to get a straight answer when I ask what is wrong with the union at this time so it makes you feel that the problem is more of a moaning sour grapes, hate the history thing than a genuine reasoning that Scotland would be better off because of this or that.

It just doesn't make sense to me when you look at the facts, 48% of Scotland's trade income from business with the UK compared to something like 12% with Europe. Scotland has a high level of self governance and this will only grow over time so it has a fair amount of freedom and autonomy within the UK. It has more of voice than we had within the EU.

Why would the EU want to keep Scotland? It doesn't really have the economy to go it alone without oil revenue at good prices. So would need a fair amount of propping up by the EU. It has a large spending deficit, 3 times the whole UK, and this is something the EU would not want to have bail out.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

What is the alternative to an independent Scotland? stay shackled to this heckhole?...Name one thing that still makes you proud to be from Britain, I just can't think of one.
I want to, it's not a nice feeling to feel so detached and despondent when imagining the future here. Especially as you know it could be so much better, I don't think Nicola Sturgeon thinks the govt has our best interests at heart and I agree.

Tell me, do you know anything about Maastricht? What about the common fisheries policy? Do you know what happened when Ireland voted no to the Lisbon treaty? Do you know anything about Greece and the austerity imposed on it? What about Spain?

Why do you think the future could be so better? What are the facts that bring you to this conclusion? How do you think an independent Scotland would manage financially? What kind of influence could they have in the EU?

I'll listen to anyone's point of view but a genuine point of view needs to have back up. It has no substance if all someone can say is this is a fact because I said so or give some other evasive response. Hating your own country is pointless and rather childish unless you live in a genuinely oppressive regime, you don't, there are much worse places in the world where you could have been born. At least in the UK you can change things you don't like by participating or protesting.

What makes me proud to be British? I live in a democracy. I live in a country where you aren't arrested and tortured for your beliefs or for speaking and criticising the government. Where there is fair process of law. I live in a country that is generally tolerant with a fantastic welfare system and free health care for all. In the US for instance having a baby in hospital costs around $10000, here you can just go ahead without that financial burden. I live in a country where a couple of musicians and some comedians saw people starving to death thousands of miles away and did, and have done, what they could to help. I live in a country where people put their hands in their pockets and drew out the cash to help. I am from a people who aren't afraid to say no to tyranny. I live in the country who peacefully abolished slavery through process of law because it was wrong. There are thousands of reasons to be very proud of where you come from, how sad that you aren't proud. There is no perfect state, no perfect world but here you have it pretty damn good.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Tell me, do you know anything about Maastricht? What about the common fisheries policy? Do you know what happened when Ireland voted no to the Lisbon treaty? Do you know anything about Greece and the austerity imposed on it? What about Spain?

Why do you think the future could be so better? What are the facts that bring you to this conclusion? How do you think an independent Scotland would manage financially? What kind of influence could they have in the EU?

I'll listen to anyone's point of view but a genuine point of view needs to have back up. It has no substance if all someone can say is this is a fact because I said so or give some other evasive response. Hating your own country is pointless and rather childish unless you live in a genuinely oppressive regime, you don't, there are much worse places in the world where you could have been born. At least in the UK you can change things you don't like by participating or protesting.

What makes me proud to be British? I live in a democracy. I live in a country where you aren't arrested and tortured for your beliefs or for speaking and criticising the government. Where there is fair process of law. I live in a country that is generally tolerant with a fantastic welfare system and free health care for all. In the US for instance having a baby in hospital costs around $10000, here you can just go ahead without that financial burden. I live in a country where a couple of musicians and some comedians saw people starving to death thousands of miles away and did, and have done, what they could to help. I live in a country where people put their hands in their pockets and drew out the cash to help. I am from a people who aren't afraid to say no to tyranny. I live in the country who peacefully abolished slavery through process of law because it was wrong. There are thousands of reasons to be very proud of where you come from, how sad that you aren't proud. There is no perfect state, no perfect world but here you have it pretty damn good.

I feel that you are totally wasting your time though Jaxie, because ALL of this, and more, has been said, with corroboration, many, many, times - by others as well as me - but to no avail.

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Tell me, do you know anything about Maastricht? What about the common fisheries policy? Do you know what happened when Ireland voted no to the Lisbon treaty? Do you know anything about Greece and the austerity imposed on it? What about Spain?

Why do you think the future could be so better? What are the facts that bring you to this conclusion? How do you think an independent Scotland would manage financially? What kind of influence could they have in the EU?

I'll listen to anyone's point of view but a genuine point of view needs to have back up. It has no substance if all someone can say is this is a fact because I said so or give some other evasive response. Hating your own country is pointless and rather childish unless you live in a genuinely oppressive regime, you don't, there are much worse places in the world where you could have been born. At least in the UK you can change things you don't like by participating or protesting.

What makes me proud to be British? I live in a democracy. I live in a country where you aren't arrested and tortured for your beliefs or for speaking and criticising the government. Where there is fair process of law. I live in a country that is generally tolerant with a fantastic welfare system and free health care for all. In the US for instance having a baby in hospital costs around $10000, here you can just go ahead without that financial burden. I live in a country where a couple of musicians and some comedians saw people starving to death thousands of miles away and did, and have done, what they could to help. I live in a country where people put their hands in their pockets and drew out the cash to help. I am from a people who aren't afraid to say no to tyranny. I live in the country who peacefully abolished slavery through process of law because it was wrong. There are thousands of reasons to be very proud of where you come from, how sad that you aren't proud. There is no perfect state, no perfect world but here you have it pretty damn good.

I don't really know much about the Scottish Independence issues so I haven't got anything to contribute but I loved reading this post There are things that are wrong with the country too though Jaxie (as well as a lot of people being dissatisfied with Brexit which their entitled to feel) and I think people should always strive to try and keep making things better and look for change if it's relevant and beneficial, and maybe that's what's behind a lot of people showing dissatisfaction (and of course a lot of things you mentioned wouldn't be the way they are if it wasn't for people being negative about things and demanding change), but still, that was all really nicely put and put a smile on my face and made me realise things aren't quite so bad

[Greg!]

Originally Posted by James

It's more important for Scotland to stay in the UK than the EU because Scotland sells much more to the rest of the UK than it does to the EU.



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...r-more-than-e/

Also countries can't just join the European Union on a whim. There's a number of criteria that have to be met. As I understand it Scotland doesn't meet those criteria currently, especially the deficit-to-GDP ratio being way to high.

We wouldn't have to rejoin though since we've already been a member (albeit as part of the UK) for years. The head of the EU exit talks has said Scotland would be welcome in the EU. And the rest of the UK would still be scotlands biggest trading partner, with the added bonus of being in the single market.

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by Greg!

We wouldn't have to rejoin though since we've already been a member (albeit as part of the UK) for years. The head of the EU exit talks has said Scotland would be welcome in the EU. And the rest of the UK would still be scotlands biggest trading partner, with the added bonus of being in the single market.

but the head of the EU exit talks doesnt decide who can join, the member states do. Spain will never allow Scotland to join because it would give legitimacy to its regions that want separation. Scotland will never be able to join the EU on its own.

[Greg!]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

but the head of the EU exit talks doesnt decide who can join, the member states do. Spain will never allow Scotland to join because it would give legitimacy to its regions that want separation. Scotland will never be able to join the EU on its own.

Scotland is already in the EU though so it wouldn't have to go through the whole rejoining process. Also An independent Scotland is completely different from Catalonia etc because it would come after a legitimate vote approved by the UK gov

[Maru]

Originally Posted by jaxie

What makes me proud to be British? I live in a democracy. I live in a country where you aren't arrested and tortured for your beliefs or for speaking and criticising the government. Where there is fair process of law. I live in a country that is generally tolerant with a fantastic welfare system and free health care for all. In the US for instance having a baby in hospital costs around $10000, here you can just go ahead without that financial burden. I live in a country where a couple of musicians and some comedians saw people starving to death thousands of miles away and did, and have done, what they could to help. I live in a country where people put their hands in their pockets and drew out the cash to help. I am from a people who aren't afraid to say no to tyranny. I live in the country who peacefully abolished slavery through process of law because it was wrong. There are thousands of reasons to be very proud of where you come from, how sad that you aren't proud. There is no perfect state, no perfect world but here you have it pretty damn good.

And that might even be at a discount, Jaxie Just to get diagnosed with a kidney stone, the non-Medical Center hospital billed here us $16,000+. The CT Scan alone was $4-6K. You should've seen it itemized. I'm sure childbirth involves more...

Anyway great post, our countries are so similar

[Livia]

Give them another referendum and keep your fingers crossed Sturgeon gets her way this time. And if there's any doubt, make the referendum for the English to see whether we want them to stay.

[Northern Monkey]

Brexit makes me proud to be British.We finally unchained ourselves from the overbearing shadow of the corrupt EU organisation and we did it through democracy.It showed that we are willing to make a stand against tyranny.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Livia

Give them another referendum and keep your fingers crossed Sturgeon gets her way this time. And if there's any doubt, make the referendum for the English to see whether we want them to stay.

I don't think the English even care much tbh.I think the turnout would be low.
I think the Scottish people should be asked if they even want another ref rather than the SNP forcing it on them.If they do then hey go for it.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

I don't really know much about the Scottish Independence issues so I haven't got anything to contribute but I loved reading this post There are things that are wrong with the country too though Jaxie (as well as a lot of people being dissatisfied with Brexit which their entitled to feel) and I think people should always strive to try and keep making things better and look for change if it's relevant and beneficial, and maybe that's what's behind a lot of people showing dissatisfaction (and of course a lot of things you mentioned wouldn't be the way they are if it wasn't for people being negative about things and demanding change), but still, that was all really nicely put and put a smile on my face and made me realise things aren't quite so bad

I'm thrilled what I said gave you a good feeling. Of course you are right that there are problems too, as I said no state is perfect but sometimes we need to look at the positives too. Balance is a good thing.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Tell me, do you know anything about Maastricht? What about the common fisheries policy? Do you know what happened when Ireland voted no to the Lisbon treaty? Do you know anything about Greece and the austerity imposed on it? What about Spain?

Why do you think the future could be so better? What are the facts that bring you to this conclusion? How do you think an independent Scotland would manage financially? What kind of influence could they have in the EU?

I'll listen to anyone's point of view but a genuine point of view needs to have back up. It has no substance if all someone can say is this is a fact because I said so or give some other evasive response. Hating your own country is pointless and rather childish unless you live in a genuinely oppressive regime, you don't, there are much worse places in the world where you could have been born. At least in the UK you can change things you don't like by participating or protesting.

What makes me proud to be British? I live in a democracy. I live in a country where you aren't arrested and tortured for your beliefs or for speaking and criticising the government. Where there is fair process of law. I live in a country that is generally tolerant with a fantastic welfare system and free health care for all. In the US for instance having a baby in hospital costs around $10000, here you can just go ahead without that financial burden. I live in a country where a couple of musicians and some comedians saw people starving to death thousands of miles away and did, and have done, what they could to help. I live in a country where people put their hands in their pockets and drew out the cash to help. I am from a people who aren't afraid to say no to tyranny. I live in the country who peacefully abolished slavery through process of law because it was wrong. There are thousands of reasons to be very proud of where you come from, how sad that you aren't proud. There is no perfect state, no perfect world but here you have it pretty damn good.

Why on earth are you questioning me on past govt policy and issues relating to other countries, why on earth would that be a prerequisite to having an opinion on the future of Britain?

I feel the new ties we're forging as well as the new laws we are introducing make for a regressive regime rather than a progressive union.
I do not hate this country I said I felt despondent, it is childish to subscribe to the media driven narrative that if you are not for this autocratic so called 'sovereignty' you are against England ..I am not.

The argument that I could live in another country is entirely pointless as it does nothing to address any issue, that would be a hypothetical...I don't live in another country I was born and socialised here. Whatever happened past present or future in other countries is irrelevant in this instance, I wish to focus on the here and now.

It is not my issue to worry about how Scotland will manage financially at the moment, as once again them leaving our union is a hypothetical ..it hasn't happened. I worry how the UK will manage financially now we have left the EU because as you know nobody has the slightest clue as to what 'brexit' will ultimately cost.

What can be changed by protesting? If even our MPs are being kept in the dark about issues relating to the split then what chance have we to protest... the fact that our representatives are being kept in the dark should give an indication as to how well it will be received. If you believe in democracy then be afraid because that is not my idea of it.

At the moment you live in a fair and just society, my worry was for the future.. can I see the same level of justice and public service in the future?
No, no I can't, that's my worry.
Your confusion that not being proud of where we are heading transpires as I am not proud of our generosity as a nation is obvious, I am fiercely proud of our historical successes in regard to civil rights, my issue is can these be retained for future generations?....

I am aware there is no perfect state, again that is no argument for not questioning the state of our nation as it stands here and now, contemplating the decisions being made behind closed doors and pondering on the impact of those for our children and our childrens children.
Have we safeguarded this land of milk and honey for them, left it as we found it...made it better? I genuinely don't think we have.

Also can I say I have the right to my opinion, this is a discussion forum not a facts forum...
whoever feels I do not have the right to speak my mind based on my own observations is fundamentally wrong.
If my views are not shared let it be known I do not care,in this country we have for now free speech, therefore I claim my right to express myself and will continue to do so.

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by Greg!

Scotland is already in the EU though so it wouldn't have to go through the whole rejoining process. Also An independent Scotland is completely different from Catalonia etc because it would come after a legitimate vote approved by the UK gov

Scotland isn't already in the EU .... the UK union is not the same as Scotland on its own. It has a completely different economy and would need to pass the economic tests, take on the Euro as a currency and accept all the membership conditions of a new country joining. To say otherwise is just wrong.

Spain has already indicated that it would reject an independent Scotland's attempt to join, so its not a piece of info dragged from thin air.

If the people of Scotland want independence that's fine, I'm a Scot although I don't live there, but if they do, they should do it with eyes wide open knowing all the consequences, not on some petty point of ill considered principle.

[Greg!]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Scotland isn't already in the EU .... the UK union is not the same as Scotland on its own. It has a completely different economy and would need to pass the economic tests, take on the Euro as a currency and accept all the membership conditions of a new country joining. To say otherwise is just wrong.

Spain has already indicated that it would reject an independent Scotland's attempt to join, so its not a piece of info dragged from thin air.

If the people of Scotland want independence that's fine, I'm a Scot although I don't live there, but if they do, they should do it with eyes wide open knowing all the consequences, not on some petty point of ill considered principle.

When have Spain ever said that they'd block Scotland's membership? I remember about a year back their foreign minister saying as long as the referendum was constitutional and recognised by the UK government then they'd recognise it as well.
I don't know everything about the EU but I don't think there's a precedent for a newly created country trying to keep its membership. If we'd need to use the euro then so be it, the pound is plummeting anyway

[Johnnyuk123]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Tell me, do you know anything about Maastricht? What about the common fisheries policy? Do you know what happened when Ireland voted no to the Lisbon treaty? Do you know anything about Greece and the austerity imposed on it? What about Spain?

Why do you think the future could be so better? What are the facts that bring you to this conclusion? How do you think an independent Scotland would manage financially? What kind of influence could they have in the EU?

I'll listen to anyone's point of view but a genuine point of view needs to have back up. It has no substance if all someone can say is this is a fact because I said so or give some other evasive response. Hating your own country is pointless and rather childish unless you live in a genuinely oppressive regime, you don't, there are much worse places in the world where you could have been born. At least in the UK you can change things you don't like by participating or protesting.

What makes me proud to be British? I live in a democracy. I live in a country where you aren't arrested and tortured for your beliefs or for speaking and criticising the government. Where there is fair process of law. I live in a country that is generally tolerant with a fantastic welfare system and free health care for all. In the US for instance having a baby in hospital costs around $10000, here you can just go ahead without that financial burden. I live in a country where a couple of musicians and some comedians saw people starving to death thousands of miles away and did, and have done, what they could to help. I live in a country where people put their hands in their pockets and drew out the cash to help. I am from a people who aren't afraid to say no to tyranny. I live in the country who peacefully abolished slavery through process of law because it was wrong. There are thousands of reasons to be very proud of where you come from, how sad that you aren't proud. There is no perfect state, no perfect world but here you have it pretty damn good.

Absolutely brilliant! I could not have said it any better myself! I am so proud to be British! Even more so now after reading this uplifting post. Thanks Jaxie

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Why on earth are you questioning me on past govt policy and issues relating to other countries, why on earth would that be a prerequisite to having an opinion on the future of Britain?

I feel the new ties we're forging as well as the new laws we are introducing make for a regressive regime rather than a progressive union.
I do not hate this country I said I felt despondent, it is childish to subscribe to the media driven narrative that if you are not for this autocratic so called 'sovereignty' you are against England ..I am not.

The argument that I could live in another country is entirely pointless as it does nothing to address any issue, that would be a hypothetical...I don't live in another country I was born and socialised here. Whatever happened past present or future in other countries is irrelevant in this instance, I wish to focus on the here and now.

It is not my issue to worry about how Scotland will manage financially at the moment, as once again them leaving our union is a hypothetical ..it hasn't happened. I worry how the UK will manage financially now we have left the EU because as you know nobody has the slightest clue as to what 'brexit' will ultimately cost.

What can be changed by protesting? If even our MPs are being kept in the dark about issues relating to the split then what chance have we to protest... the fact that our representatives are being kept in the dark should give an indication as to how well it will be received. If you believe in democracy then be afraid because that is not my idea of it.

At the moment you live in a fair and just society, my worry was for the future.. can I see the same level of justice and public service in the future?
No, no I can't, that's my worry.
Your confusion that not being proud of where we are heading transpires as I am not proud of our generosity as a nation is obvious, I am fiercely proud of our historical successes in regard to civil rights, my issue is can these be retained for future generations?....

I am aware there is no perfect state, again that is no argument for not questioning the state of our nation as it stands here and now, contemplating the decisions being made behind closed doors and pondering on the impact of those for our children and our childrens children.
Have we safeguarded this land of milk and honey for them, left it as we found it...made it better? I genuinely don't think we have.

Also can I say I have the right to my opinion, this is a discussion forum not a facts forum...
whoever feels I do not have the right to speak my mind based on my own observations is fundamentally wrong.
If my views are not shared let it be known I do not care,in this country we have for now free speech, therefore I claim my right to express myself and will continue to do so.

Nowhere, at any time, did I say that you couldn't have an opinion, that is an overly sensitive fabrication of your own. That is even part of my point, that luxury to have and express an opinion is one of the fortunate things you have because you are British.

If you understand nothing about the EU and our history within it then how can you so desperately find it a force for good? Scotland leaving our union may be hypothetical but how they can do it viably and financially is all part of the discussion and debate or are you implying that we can only discuss the subject on your terms?

I don't understand anyone who says what is the point of protesting. It's a right of your freedom and by protesting, lobbying, voting, engaging in politics you can be a force for change. That doesn't mean everything is going to go your way but you can be part of the process. Saying what's the point is just a cop out based on apathy.

When someone goes into a business negotiation with others it would be incredibly stupid to tell everyone everything that is part of their negotiating tactic. Why should you be told before a negotiation has even started what all the bargaining chips are. That isn't undemocratic it's common sense. What is undemocratic is clutching at desperate straws to overturn a vote that was clear and fair.

We had decent civil rights and a good welfare system before the EU why would we suddenly become otherwise without it? Our decent values as a people haven't changed.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Greg!

When have Spain ever said that they'd block Scotland's membership? I remember about a year back their foreign minister saying as long as the referendum was constitutional and recognised by the UK government then they'd recognise it as well.
I don't know everything about the EU but I don't think there's a precedent for a newly created country trying to keep its membership. If we'd need to use the euro then so be it, the pound is plummeting anyway

In a press conferences just after Brexit and via the media.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...shed-by-spani/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...embership.html

[Greg!]

Originally Posted by jaxie

In a press conferences just after Next and via the media.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...shed-by-spani/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...embership.html

The first article says that Scotland has to leave the EU if it stays in the UK which everyone already knows: that's one of the reasons why independence is back on the table.

The second article isn't from someone in the Spanish government, it's just an opinion with no evidence to back it up from a random Irish person who used to work for the EU.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Greg!

The first article says that Scotland has to leave the EU if it stays in the UK which everyone already knows: that's one of the reasons why independence is back on the table.

The second article isn't from someone in the Spanish government, it's just an opinion with no evidence to back it up from a random Irish person who used to work for the EU.

If you need to see the actual press conference which was on the news at the time, look it up yourself.

https://www.ft.com/content/33de1fbc-...6-a4a71e8140b0

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/sp...-a3284226.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7109176.html



Shocks me sometimes how people will argue over something they know nothing about and can't get Mr finger to work Google for them to read about.

[Greg!]

Originally Posted by jaxie

If you need to see the actual press conference which was on the news at the time, look it up yourself.

https://www.ft.com/content/33de1fbc-...6-a4a71e8140b0

Shocks me sometimes how people will argue over something they know nothing about and can't get Mr finger to work Google for them to read about.

I can't read that link because it's behind a paywall, but if it's the same press conference that you were talking about in your last post then it's saying that Scotland can't stay in the EU if it's in the UK, not that they'd be barred from entering if hey were independent

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Greg!

I can't read that link because it's behind a paywall, but if it's the same press conference that you were talking about in your last post then it's saying that Scotland can't stay in the EU if it's in the UK, not that they'd be barred from entering if hey were independent

Spain, France and Belgium all said they would veto any attempt for an independent Scotland from joining the EU.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7109176.html

Feel free to stay ignorant of the facts if you want.

[Greg!]

Originally Posted by jaxie

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7109176.html

Feel free to stay ignorant of the facts if you want.

Screaming are you even reading my posts, all these articles say is that Spain doesn't want Scotland to remain in the EU IF ITS STILL IN THE UK, not if it's independent.