[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Cherie

What's perfect about it, they have basically gone back on their "once in a generation" claim as well alienating a lot of the voters who voted No just under 3 years ago, as a leave voter I'm surprised you think it's a good idea to stick with the EU in all honesty

Does being pro-independence for Scotland necessarily mean thinking it's a good idea to stick with the EU? I personally (at this point) am undecided on the issue of full EU membership for Scotland. I think Brexit will prove to be a disaster, but a disaster not just for the UK but the whole of the EU. With the way the world is going, I think the EU's days are numbered. I think at this point, the better scenario is a massively scaled back Europe that has a strong single market trading agreement but fewer other ties.

However all of this is irrelevant to the Scottish Indy issue. I don't believe that Scotland can EVER thrive under Westminster, and especially Tory, rule and I don't realistically see a shift in power there for a long, long time. I think any "benefits" will be systematically removed over the coming decades and any and all resources that Scotland does have currently will be plundered by London until independence IS impossible.

In short, I think IN OR OUT of the EU, Scotland needs to be out from under the London thumb as soon as possible to secure any future that doesn't look more and more bleak by the year.

[Greg!]

This is a really good article and explains why the "Scotland would have a massive deficit that it couldn't afford" arguments isn't true.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/po...rebar_facebook

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Greg!

This is a really good article and explains why the "Scotland would have a massive deficit that it couldn't afford" arguments isn't true.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/po...rebar_facebook

Scotland does have a massive deficit already due to its welfare spending. That's a matter of public record.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Scotland does have a massive deficit already due to its welfare spending. That's a matter of public record.

It doesn't have a "massive" deficit, and the deficit that does exist is not caused by welfare spending. Also, the deficit that is constantly being quoted is the deficit whilst in the UK with tax revenue being drained by the needlessly large UK military, Trident, the City of London, etc... it is FAR smaller when those things are taken out of the equation.

I do personally think that some things are over-the-top for various reasons, e.g. I think free prescriptions across the board are actually problematic (with over-prescription, and people filling prescriptions that they won't even use) and the English system is more or less fine there (sort of means tested; Tax Credits recipients get free prescriptions) although I would also advocate heavily subsidizing prescriptions for anyone who requires life-long medication rather than one off prescriptions.

Veering off topic there. What I am basically pointing out is that if you strip away a lot of the "UK spending" the deficit is far less than reported, and that there ARE other cuts that can be "safely" made without hacking away at welfare or other essentials, ESPECIALLY in a smaller country that doesn't have the same "bloating" problems that the wider UK has.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Scotland does have a massive deficit already due to its welfare spending. That's a matter of public record.

Is it? let's see it then.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Does being pro-independence for Scotland necessarily mean thinking it's a good idea to stick with the EU? I personally (at this point) am undecided on the issue of full EU membership for Scotland. I think Brexit will prove to be a disaster, but a disaster not just for the UK but the whole of the EU. With the way the world is going, I think the EU's days are numbered. I think at this point, the better scenario is a massively scaled back Europe that has a strong single market trading agreement but fewer other ties.

However all of this is irrelevant to the Scottish Indy issue. I don't believe that Scotland can EVER thrive under Westminster, and especially Tory, rule and I don't realistically see a shift in power there for a long, long time. I think any "benefits" will be systematically removed over the coming decades and any and all resources that Scotland does have currently will be plundered by London until independence IS impossible.

In short, I think IN OR OUT of the EU, Scotland needs to be out from under the London thumb as soon as possible to secure any future that doesn't look more and more bleak by the year.

Well yes it does mean sticking with the EU because that is Sturgeons argument for having another referendum that Scotland is being taken from the marvel's of the EU without it's consent. If you don't want to be in the EU now then what is your excuse for calling for another referendum?

You say Brexit is a disaster but the EUs days are numbered weren't you pro EU all the way last week?

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Well yes it does mean sticking with the EU because that is Sturgeons argument for having another referendum that Scotland is being taken from the marvel's of the EU without it's consent. If you don't want to be in the EU now then what is your excuse for calling for another referendum?

MY excuse? Well, it's not me calling it. But I guess the fact that England is imploding into a harder-right isolationist mess, full of bolstered xenophobes, would be a good enough reason to re-examine the idea of splitting away. You're not going to try to pretend that England (or the world) is the same place as it was in 2014, surely?

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

MY excuse? Well, it's not me calling it. But I guess the fact that England is imploding into a harder-right isolationist mess, full of bolstered xenophobes, would be a good enough reason to re-examine the idea of splitting away. You're not going to try to pretend that England (or the world) is the same place as it was in 2014, surely?

Your prejudices are showing. You obviously have a lack of first hand knowledge about England. How lovely I won't lower myself to call all the Scots names, I'll leave the lowering and name calling to you.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Adam.

Theresa has yet to make many promises that she will fail to deliver.

Also who calls 2 once in a lifetime referendums in the space of a 3 or 4 years

Oh I don't doubt there will be more lies, that's inevitable.

The reason for the 2nd referendum is clear, if Scotland were taking England and the rest of the UK out of Europe then we would have surely done the same had we voted to remain.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Well yes it does mean sticking with the EU because that is Sturgeons argument for having another referendum that Scotland is being taken from the marvel's of the EU without it's consent. If you don't want to be in the EU now then what is your excuse for calling for another referendum?

You say Brexit is a disaster but the EUs days are numbered weren't you pro EU all the way last week?

I find it quite funny that democracy must be upheld in the UK over the Brexit vote, even though the percentages were very small between yes and no, yet democracy in Scotland can be overturned cos its better for Scotland innit, even though the no vote was quite substantial despite dropping the voter age and doing everything possible to achieve a yes vote

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Oh I don't doubt there will be more lies, that's inevitable.

The reason for the 2nd referendum is clear, if Scotland were taking England and the rest of the UK out of Europe then we would have surely done the same had we voted to remain.

More lies? What lies has she told already. Let's have a list?

[Cherie]

At least we are getting to the nub of it now for the pro Indys its nothing to do with Europe or remaining part of the EU it all boils down to an opportunity and Brexit was a gift to the SNP they could only dream about.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Your prejudices are showing. You obviously have a lack of first hand knowledge about England. How lovely I won't lower myself to call all the Scots names, I'll leave the lowering and name calling to you.

My wife is English, I lived in England for 3 years, and I am in England several times a year.

I'm not prejudiced against English people, not at all, but there is an isolationist shift occurring in mainstream UK politics that is ... ... distasteful? Would that be a polite way to put it? I don't think it's strange to want to be disassociated from that.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

MY excuse? Well, it's not me calling it. But I guess the fact that England is imploding into a harder-right isolationist mess, full of bolstered xenophobes, would be a good enough reason to re-examine the idea of splitting away. You're not going to try to pretend that England (or the world) is the same place as it was in 2014, surely?

They've really done a number on you, stop listening to them, they're making you paranoid.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Cherie

[/B]


I find it quite funny that democracy must be upheld in the UK over the Brexit vote, even though the percentages were very small between yes and no, yet democracy in Scotland can be overturned cos its better for Scotland innit, even though the no vote was quite substantial despite dropping the voter age and doing everything possible to achieve a yes vote

Ikr, and the claims that Scotland is so hard done by in the UK. I don't know if it's naivety, ignorance or delusion.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

My wife is English, I lived in England for 3 years, and I am in England several times a year.

I'm not prejudiced against English people, not at all, but there is an isolationist shift occurring in mainstream UK politics that is ... ... distasteful? Would that be a polite way to put it? I don't think it's strange to want to be disassociated from that.

Oh deary me, I guess that makes you an expert on the rest of us xenophobes then.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Ikr, and the claims that Scotland is so hard done by in the UK. I don't know if it's naivety, ignorance or delusion.

I find the hypocrisy of those who are all for Brexit and yet oppose Scottish Independence quite hilarious. Unless you are suggesting that the UK was "hard done by" within the EU? Hmmm.

But no. Brexit voters seem to FULLY understand the importance of autonomy and the right and ability of the UK to make it's own way in the world, even if it means more austerity, cuts, weakening the pound... it's all worth it not to be controlled by another larger entity.

"BUT NOT FOR YOU Scotland you need the strong shoulders of the UK! Hush hush quiet down now."

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

My wife is English, I lived in England for 3 years, and I am in England several times a year.

I'm not prejudiced against English people, not at all, but there is an isolationist shift occurring in mainstream UK politics that is ... ... distasteful? Would that be a polite way to put it? I don't think it's strange to want to be disassociated from that.

It isn't just England though, the US is going down that road too. It's definitely fear driven I think and people like Donald Trump/Nigel Farage etc capitalising on that and exploiting it for their own gains

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Well this has caused me to completely rethink everything! I thought I had a pretty good grasp on it, but I hadn't realised that the all-knowing "some lady on Daily Politics" was saying that there would be extreme austerity measures . That is concerning.

She seemed quite important and she was Scottish.


Andrew Neil doesn't just have any old riff raff on.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Oh deary me, I guess that makes you an expert on the rest of us xenophobes then.

I quite clearly did not say that, I was countering your suggestion that I have "a lack of first hand knowledge about England", that I am prejudiced against England, and that I am name-calling. A list of "facts" about me that you apparently pulled directly from your own arsehole.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Greg!

Was it Kezia dugdale by any chance bc that's her catchphrase and she says that all the time. UGH she annoys me to no end

It could well have been.She had funny front teeth.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I find the hypocrisy of those who are all for Brexit and yet oppose Scottish Independence quite hilarious. Unless you are suggesting that the UK was "hard done by" within the EU? Hmmm.

But no. Brexit voters seem to FULLY understand the importance of autonomy and the right and ability of the UK to make it's own way in the world, even if it means more austerity, cuts, weakening the pound... it's all worth it not to be controlled by another larger entity.

"BUT NOT FOR YOU Scotland you need the strong shoulders of the UK! Hush hush quiet down now."

The EU forced Ireland to keep having referendum on the Lisbon treaty until they got the answer they wanted. The UK isn't doing the same thing to Scotland. I see no hypocrisy there.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

It isn't just England though, the US is going down that road too. It's definitely fear driven I think and people like Donald Trump/Nigel Farage etc capitalising on that and exploiting it for their own gains

I used to think it was fear driven, that people's opinions were being twisted an coloured by needless fear, but I've started to worry if the ugly underbelly of the issue isn't actually something quite different.

These people's opinions aren't "changing" out of fear... the climate of fear has lead to an acceptance of views that quite blatantly already existed. The reactions aren't "scary things are happening and I'm worried"... it's "OMG yaaaay people are allowed to say crappy things about people who aren't like us now, I've always wanted to do this but it wasn't allowed for ages but now everyone is doing it so I can too!"

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by jaxie

The EU forced Ireland to keep having referendum on the Lisbon treaty until they got the answer they wanted. The UK isn't doing the same thing to Scotland. I see no hypocrisy there.

You think that the UK is better off being independent from the EU even if it means a financial loss.

You think that Scotland should be happy being under London rule if it means financial gain.

That is quite clear hypocrisy.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by jaxie

The EU forced Ireland to keep having referendum on the Lisbon treaty until they got the answer they wanted. The UK isn't doing the same thing to Scotland. I see no hypocrisy there.

Well we had it twice but yeah that was annoying at the time