[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by JTM45

And you do ?

I am educated (i know Trump loves the uneducated so i will always make a point that i am not that. His ignorance is repugnant!) and i state my opinion. If you disagree with any of it or can actually correct anything i've said please do so. That's what constructive discussion is all about.

I've seen you regularly post some absolute drivel and called you out on it and i haven't once seen you able to correct my points. You regularly turn up to a gun fight armed with a spoon.

What's Trump got to do with it. The study was about Britain leaving the EU. I have no interest in Trump. I have no interest in your points either as they are usually based on a personal attack rather than you calling me out on anything.

Actually I prefer a 'spoon' to an unloaded gun full of hot air but no bite.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by JTM45

I've already stated that it's my opinion based on many respected sources that i take notice of. If you're really that interested you could find the same information instead of demanding spoon-fed clickable links.

I could find information, but a lot of it could easily be a pile of rubbish. I could easily find some sources to show Obama is the Anti-Christ or some rubbish, wouldn't make it valid. So what are your "respectable" sources?

[JTM45]

Well said Dezzy.

The leavers just stick their fingers in their ears whenever the undeniability of the fact that people voted for lies and on false facts rears its head.

[JTM45]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

I could find information, but a lot of it could easily be a pile of rubbish.

That's where you can use your powers of deduction to evaluate the info. As i've repeatedly said, i DO NOT CARE about convincing you to share my views and opinions. They are mine. I'm not going to spoon-feed you.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by JTM45

Well said Dezzy.

The leavers just stick their fingers in their ears whenever the undeniability of the fact that people voted for lies and on false facts rears its head.

What would you call more "undeniable" : a study by Oxford and LSE, or some rando on a forum saying "there ARE sources out there, I SWEAR!!"

[JTM45]

In the context i used the term the fact that Farage admitted less than 24 hours after the vote that the ''£350 million a week will go straight back into the NHS when we leave the EU'' was incorrect and undeniable.

Please don't call me names ''Oliver''.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by JTM45

In the context i used the term the fact that Farage admitted less than 24 hours after the vote that the ''£350 million a week will go straight back into the NHS when we leave the EU'' was incorrect and undeniable.

Please don't call me names ''Oliver''.

Farage was never in a position to make that promise, he has and had virtually no political power. "Rando" isn't an insult, sorry if you took it that way, it's just short for "random person." And who cares about Farage, what's he got to do with the price of fish?

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Most voters are ignorant ****s that don't know their arse from their elbow and voted on nothing more than empty promises, headlines and catchphrases. Same with the latest election, anyone that bothered to look into the Tories' manifesto for a minute or two could see that they are full of **** and that Theresa May is a weak leader that will fold to everything because she only stands for anything on a superficial level.

Ignorance will always prevail, most people that voted in the referendum would have voted based on what their family and friends were voting or whether or not they wanted to 'kick all the immigrants out'.

Leaver regret became a thing after the referendum results came out and the lies that the Leaver side spouted were instantly debunked. It wouldn't surprise me to see the sheep still living with their heads in the sand but you won't get many of the 49% that voted Remain switching sides when literally nothing good has come from it thus far.

Very little point in voting tbh, ignorance always wins. Cue the faux indignation because I dared to have an opinion.

Keeping in the spirit. Flak, flak, flak, flak.

Oh look I managed a whole sentence without calling you names or questioning your intelligence. You should try it sometime. It's not having an opinion that is the problem.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Keeping in the spirit. Flak, flak, flak, flak.

Oh look I managed a whole sentence without calling you names or questioning your intelligence. You should try it sometime. It's not having an opinion that is the problem.

Hmm? You must be reading something completely different to what I wrote because I haven't called anyone names or questioned their intelligence. Any excuse to have a pop at me under the guise of the moral high ground, I guess.

Unless you're pretending to be offended for the sake of the masses and trying to make out that what I've said is in someway an insult towards members? If so, good luck with the reaching.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Keeping in the spirit. Flak, flak, flak, flak.

Oh look I managed a whole sentence without calling you names or questioning your intelligence. You should try it sometime. It's not having an opinion that is the problem.

It's worrying how some simply cannot see that insulting thousands of voters for having a different opinion to theirs is the real problem here. Some speak of not being allowed an opinion when they repeatedly call thousands of others 'ignorant *****s' for just that - having an opinion. Then having the Gaul to say they haven't called anyone names or questioned their intelligence - definitely not on the same page as the rest of us. Practising what they preach would be a good lesson learned I think.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by JTM45

Well said Dezzy.

The leavers just stick their fingers in their ears whenever the undeniability of the fact that people voted for lies and on false facts rears its head.

Unlike of course the fact most of those that constantly talk of lies and false facts when it comes to Brexit then bought into Corbyn's lies on clearing all student debt and his empty promises of throwing masses of tax payers money at this that and the other when several experts have stated such claims are unaffordable and this country would end up with a Hugh deficit that would have a negative effect on the economy leading to untold problems. Pot and kettle.

Corbyn is just another Labour politician promising the earth to win an election. You would think people would get that by now. You can stick your fingers in your ears once again.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Unlike of course the fact most of those that constantly talk of lies and false facts when it comes to Brexit then bought into Corbyn's lies on clearing all student debt and his empty promises of throwing masses of tax payers money at this that and the other when several experts have stated such claims are unaffordable and this country would end up with a Hugh deficit that would have a negative effect on the economy leading to untold problems. Pot and kettle.

Corbyn is just another Labour politician promising the earth to win an election. You would think people would get that by now. You can stick your fingers in your ears once again.

You do realize that spending comes before tax and the only thing tax is used for is paying off interest on government debt? We don't have a special pot for consumer spending or salary contributions!! QE works, providing the money is invested and guarantees a return (in tax). Therefore, investing in education is a very secure spend because the more educated professionals we have, the more they earn and the more they earn, the more they spend. That's a double whammy on tax return.

To suggest we will be paying, through our taxes, to educate students just shows a lack of understanding around how tax and deficits work. If we didn't have a deficit, the money machine would come to a grinding halt.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

You do realize that spending comes before tax and the only thing tax is used for is paying off interest on government debt? We don't have a special pot for consumer spending or salary contributions!! QE works, providing the money is invested and guarantees a return (in tax). Therefore, investing in education is a very secure spend because the more educated professionals we have, the more they earn and the more they earn, the more they spend. That's a double whammy on tax return.

To suggest we will be paying, through our taxes, to educate students just shows a lack of understanding around how tax and deficits work. If we didn't have a deficit, the money machine would come to a grinding halt.

http://www.express.co.uk/comment/exp...debt-manifesto

So you say, but information you have presented before has been questioned.

Like most things the size of the national deficit is relevant. Very high Government debt can slow down the economy and increase taxation to pay for it. According to the latest Article IV report on the UK economy the IMF said that maintaining deficits and debts at high levels would also constrain the space to respond proactively to future large negative growth shocks.

It is clearly not in our interests to have a very high national deficit which is what we would have to finance Corbyns' grand plans. Talk is cheap, action isn't.

Personally I do not support a policy that expects those earning less to pay for a higher level of education that will likely provide much higher earnings for the beneficiaries. In principle it is wrong. If you want to benefit from higher education and the benefits it brings you have to expect to contribute.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Like most things the size of the national deficit is relevant. Very high Government debt can slow down the economy and increase taxation to pay for it. According to the latest Article IV report on the UK economy the IMF said that maintaining deficits and debts at high levels would also constrain the space to respond proactively to future large negative growth shocks.

Ok but do you understand the reason for the part in bold? Basically the reason for reducing debt when "times are good" is so that you can SPEND SPEND SPEND when things get bad, because investment is the only way to effectively pull out of an economic downturn. When they talk about having room to reapond; this is what they mean. Having room to BORROW and SPEND more when the economy is suffering.

Now... Both Labour and the Tories unfortunately got this arse-backwards in each of their terms. Labour were in power during major boom years when we were thriving, but failed to address debt issues when we were in the position to do so. On the flipside... The Tories CUT spending and tightened the belts at a time when the economy was in trouble... The absolute opposite of the right thing to do. Creative spending on jobs and keeping the country flowing, and keeping money IN the pockets of consumers rather than removing it through austerity, is the way to bring us back to a thriving economy and THEN tackle the debt.

And they're still doing it. Despite what some would have us believe, the economy is far from recovered, let alone thriving, and this Tory obsession with austerity and cuts is only going to slow the economy down further and make things worse. It needs a turbo boost... Not someone hitting the brakes.

Its not really comparable to personal debt but a comparison can be drawn;

Let's say someone is in £40,000 of debt and they earn £25,000 a year. An expensive, but promising, opportunity comes up and they now have two options:

1) They could stay in their 25k job and put every spare penny they have onto debts every month. If they do this, they reckon they can pay it all off in 15 years of frugal living.

2) They can borrow another 10k and go on a 3 year course that will bag them a job earning £50k a year. During the course they can only afford to repay the interest, so at the end of that, they will be in more debt, but earning more money, and have the now-50k debt paid off in another 9 years.

So in option 1 it takes 15 years to pay the debt and still be in the same dead end job at the end of it.

Option 2, initially the debt rises but in the end it only takes 12 years total to pay the debt, even through the debt was higher and started repaying later, and the person is also in a much better position at the end of it.


The theory is the same. Spend money to make the economy truly strong and then repaying the debt won't be the same mountain that it is with our struggling economy in a time of uncertainty.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

It's worrying how some simply cannot see that insulting thousands of voters for having a different opinion to theirs is the real problem here. Some speak of not being allowed an opinion when they repeatedly call thousands of others 'ignorant *****s' for just that - having an opinion. Then having the Gaul to say they haven't called anyone names or questioned their intelligence - definitely not on the same page as the rest of us. Practising what they preach would be a good lesson learned I think.

Yup and the implication that people believed every word of the campaign.

My mind was made up years before the referendum, I knew how I would vote if there ever was one, for many reasons, but not least because we were dragged through major changes to what the EU was without being consulted for 40 years. That is unacceptable to me. Ironically because politicians calling all the shots and taking us into a political experiment without the people's consent was unacceptable. And yet here we have those who feel they know it all on forum telling me I voted the way I did because I believed every word of the campaign. I'm not the one telling others how they think and I'm being called ignorant.

[Livia]

I see "leavers" are still regarded is "stupid and ignorant" by the high-flying, deep thinking academics here who voted "stay".

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

It's worrying how some simply cannot see that insulting thousands of voters for having a different opinion to theirs is the real problem here. Some speak of not being allowed an opinion when they repeatedly call thousands of others 'ignorant *****s' for just that - having an opinion. Then having the Gaul to say they haven't called anyone names or questioned their intelligence - definitely not on the same page as the rest of us. Practising what they preach would be a good lesson learned I think.

Coming from you? How often are you insulting people who believe in PC or the left in general? Get off that high horse before it collapses under the weight of your hypocrisy. Also good for you for trying to be PC

I've never denied the masses their opinions, I've simply commented on them. You and others, however, do constantly try to shut down opinions you don't like be pretending to be offended and making out that anything you dislike is a rule break.

I haven't called any member names or questioned their intelligence. Again, like Jaxie, you are trying to invalidate my opinion by making out that I'm insulting members when I've not simply because you can't handle opinions you disagree with.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Livia

I see "leavers" are still regarded is "stupid and ignorant" by the high-flying, deep thinking academics here who voted "stay".

Not all leavers, just the majority that voted because they believed that a Bus that told them the NHS would get millions more in funding or because a bunch of politicians selling snake oil told them what they wanted to hear or simply because they voted to leave because that's what other people they know did.

If you vote in an election or a referendum without truly understanding the issue then you are voting in ignorance and the majority of all voters are largely ignorant.

Of course that distinction doesn't matter, any reason to act offended, huh?

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Livia

I see "leavers" are still regarded is "stupid and ignorant" by the high-flying, deep thinking academics here who voted "stay".

You said it much more eloquently than I did.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Yup and the implication that people believed every word of the campaign.

My mind was made up years before the referendum, I knew how I would vote if there ever was one, for many reasons, but not least because we were dragged through major changes to what the EU was without being consulted for 40 years. That is unacceptable to me. Ironically because politicians calling all the shots and taking us into a political experiment without the people's consent was unacceptable. And yet here we have those who feel they know it all on forum telling me I voted the way I did because I believed every word of the campaign. I'm not the one telling others how they think and I'm being called ignorant.

This is the problem, you believe that everyone who voted leave thinks exactly the same as you and just so happens to be informed on all the issues. You might be informed but the majority of all voters are not and to act like they are is to live in denial.

You just want an excuse to be offended at what someone you dislike has said although common sense and basic reading skills would dictate that what I said doesn't apply to anyone informed of the issues surrounding the vote.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

This is the problem, you believe that everyone who voted leave thinks exactly the same as you and just so happens to be informed on all the issues. You might be informed but the majority of all voters are not and to act like they are is to live in denial.

You just want an excuse to be offended at what someone you dislike has said although common sense and basic reading skills would dictate that what I said doesn't apply to anyone informed of the issues surrounding the vote.

Of course I don't believe that everyone voted for the same reason I did. I would also never presume to state most of them voted because they didn't know what they were voting for. That's just you. I wouldn't dream of assuming I know why anyone voted the way they did. I certainly wouldn't accuse them of being thick or ignorant if they chose differently.

Why would I dislike you? I don't know you. I do dislike the sweeping arrogant generalisations which are based on no facts at all when you can have no idea what the majority of people thought or knew when they voted. Again with the veiled insults. Now you are accusing me of having no basic reading skills or common sense. How is that not offensive? What is wrong with you? You keep digging the hole.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Coming from you? How often are you insulting people who believe in PC or the left in general? Get off that high horse before it collapses under the weight of your hypocrisy. Also good for you for trying to be PC

I've never denied the masses their opinions, I've simply commented on them. You and others, however, do constantly try to shut down opinions you don't like be pretending to be offended and making out that anything you dislike is a rule break.

I haven't called any member names or questioned their intelligence. Again, like Jaxie, you are trying to invalidate my opinion by making out that I'm insulting members when I've not simply because you can't handle opinions you disagree with.

It isn't me that can't handle opposing opinions. No matter what you say people will form their own opinions regardless of yours.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Of course I don't believe that everyone voted for the same reason I did. I would also never presume to state most of them voted because they didn't know what they were voting for. That's just you. I wouldn't dream of assuming I know why anyone voted the way they did. I certainly wouldn't accuse them of being thick or ignorant if they chose differently.

Why would I dislike you? I don't know you. I do dislike the sweeping arrogant generalisations which are based on no facts at all when you can have no idea what the majority of people thought or knew when they voted. Again with the veiled insults. Now you are accusing me of having no basic reading skills or common sense. How is that not offensive? What is wrong with you? You keep digging the hole.

You can tell by the tactics and points that campaigns use and focus on which are most effective. The leave campaign didn't really pick up pace until Immigration and the NHS lie became the cornerstones of the Leave argument. It had the most traction with the public as a whole, if they didn't they wouldn't have become the focal points of the vote.

Same with the latest elections, May was dependant on slogans ('Strong and Stable', 'No deal is better than a bad deal') and if they weren't effective in generating a positive response from voters then they wouldn't have relied on them so heavily.

You accuse me of arrogance (hypocritical considering how offended you act later on in the paragraph) yet my statements are based on looking at the tactics used by campaigns and simple knowledge of the public as a whole. You can pretend that everyone is informed and know exactly what they are voting for all you like but it won't reflect the reality that most voters won't ever research what they are voting on and don't really understand WHAT they are voting for which is why shallow tactics like slogans and headlines are so effective because people don't care enough to look into it any deeper than that.

The rest is just you looking for reasons to be offended to discount what I said instead of forming an actual argument against it so I shan't bother responding to it.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

It isn't me that can't handle opposing opinions. No matter what you say people will form their own opinions regardless of yours.

A mantra that I've repeated for years on this section is 'Everyone is entitled to an opinion and everyone else is entitled to an opinion on that opinion.' Deflecting won't change that, Brillo.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Ok but do you understand the reason for the part in bold? Basically the reason for reducing debt when "times are good" is so that you can SPEND SPEND SPEND when things get bad, because investment is the only way to effectively pull out of an economic downturn. When they talk about having room to reapond; this is what they mean. Having room to BORROW and SPEND more when the economy is suffering.

Now... Both Labour and the Tories unfortunately got this arse-backwards in each of their terms. Labour were in power during major boom years when we were thriving, but failed to address debt issues when we were in the position to do so.

Yep but I'll add: that was personal debt issues and not government debt issues. If Labour had put more restrictions on the banks instead of allowing carte blanche lending like the rest of the Western world, the bailouts would still of happened but would of been considerably lower.

On the flipside... The Tories CUT spending and tightened the belts at a time when the economy was in trouble... The absolute opposite of the right thing to do. Creative spending on jobs and keeping the country flowing, and keeping money IN the pockets of consumers rather than removing it through austerity, is the way to bring us back to a thriving economy and THEN tackle the debt.

And they're still doing it. Despite what some would have us believe, the economy is far from recovered, let alone thriving, and this Tory obsession with austerity and cuts is only going to slow the economy down further and make things worse. It needs a turbo boost... Not someone hitting the brakes.

Absolutely! Negative growth shocks come about from two things 1) lack of spending in the right areas with QE and 2) Savings (austerity) create growth shocks because its money being taken out of the economy and when you keep removing vast sums of money from the economy it raises the deficit but doesn’t allow growth and only growth can balance out that deficit through taxation. What we have been witnessing for the last decade is a model that simply doesn't work.

Its not really comparable to personal debt but a comparison can be drawn

I'll apologize in advance for snatching this little gem that should be written in broad letters across every billboard in the country! Though I don't think comparisons can be drawn and here's why.

A government with its own currency (like ours) cannot have a personal debt crisis like the ex-student who owes on his loan because the government creates its own currency as and when required.

The theory is the same. Spend money to make the economy truly strong and then repaying the debt won't be the same mountain that it is with our struggling economy in a time of uncertainty.

Yep... spending more than pays for itself and cuts impose more harm than the initial sum supposedly saved.