[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Everything you have just mentioned, is a result of biological differences between the sexes though. Nothing to do with 'gender'?

It's to do with gender roles, the roles each of the two genders take in society, are defined by biological sex.

For example, you mention women being better suited for nurturing and caring professions. A male who choses a caring profession, does not become a woman. He is just a man who likes caring.

No, he'd be a male not fully following the gender role.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

It's to do with gender roles, the roles each of the two genders take in society, are defined by biological sex.


No, he'd be a male not fully following the gender role.

I am not understanding your posts on this if I am honest.

Yes testosterone and male sexed bodied tends to make men stronger, and thus more suited to physical work (as a class. Some women are stronger than some men obviously)

What does this have to do with trans? You just admitted that a man taking on a stereotypically female gender role is still a man, just being unstereotypical. So...how does this tally with transgender people claiming taking on stereotypical female roles ARE actually female?

Basically, while some sex stereotypes may have a little basis in biology (many don't...and the ones usually mentioned when trans people talk are clothing and hairdo and toys they played with...which have NO basis in biolgy and are entirely socially constructed), they are still just stereotypes and are definitely not true of everyone of whichever sex. And not being stereotypical of your sex, does not make you the opposite sex.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I am not understanding your posts on this if I am honest.

Yes testosterone and male sexed bodied tends to make men stronger, and thus more suited to physical work (as a class. Some women are stronger than some men obviously)

What does this have to do with trans? You just admitted that a man taking on a stereotypically female gender role is still a man, just being unstereotypical. So...how does this tally with transgender people claiming taking on stereotypical female roles ARE actually female?

I wasn't talking about trans. I was talking about how gender roles aren't really socially constructed, but are biology driven.

Basically, while some sex stereotypes may have a little basis in biology (many don't...and the ones usually mentioned when trans people talk are clothing and hairdo and toys they played with...which have NO basis in biolgy and are entirely socially constructed), they are still just stereotypes and are definitely not true of everyone of whichever sex. And not being stereotypical of your sex, does not make you the opposite sex.

Depends on the toys. Playing with dolls can be reflective of caring/maternal instincts, for example.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Depends on the toys. Playing with dolls can be reflective of caring/maternal instincts, for example.

A child is not maternal though. Little girls play with dolls as thats what they are given. They would be equally happy with a truck...and some would prefer the truck.

What we have happening now, is that a girl child who prefers playing with trucks and playing in mud, is called trans. Which is just ****ing bonkers.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

What we have happening now, is that a girl child who prefers playing with trucks and playing in mud, is called trans. Which is just ****ing bonkers.

On that I agree!

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

On that I agree!

Do you believe a child can even BE trans? Given kids do not understand the differences between the sexes...and certainly do not understand it enough to make any kind of decision on what sex they are?

Its interesting talking to other people who agree with my stance on this tbh. As generally...talking about this leads to accusations of transphobia, when its really not. Its concern for the children caught up in all of this nonsense. Who will be put onto 'blockers' (which arent actually reversible in practise, when treating 'transkids') and then onto cross sex hormones whilst their brains are still stuck in a childlike state.

Every single story of kids being trans follows the same narrative. Liked playing with toys associated with opposite sex, and wanted to wear dresses/refused to wear dresses, wanted long/short hair...and so on.

I think older 'trans' people are forcing this onto children (as they are the ones advising schools on how to deal with it) to validate themselves. And using kids in this manner is ****ing wrong and SHOULD be questioned by everyone. Especially when it turns out that 80%-95% of gender questioning kids grow out of it if left to just develop naturally. And the huge majority of these kids simply turn out to be gay. But when put onto the blockers route, 100% go onto 'transition'

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Do you believe a child can even BE trans? Given kids do not understand the differences between the sexes...and certainly do not understand it enough to make any kind of decision on what sex they are?

Its interesting talking to other people who agree with my stance on this tbh. As generally...talking about this leads to accusations of transphobia, when its really not. Its concern for the children caught up in all of this nonsense. Who will be put onto 'blockers' (which arent actually reversible in practise, when treating 'transkids') and then onto cross sex hormones whilst their brains are still stuck in a childlike state.

Every single story of kids being trans follows the same narrative. Liked playing with toys associated with opposite sex, and wanted to wear dresses/refused to wear dresses, wanted long/short hair...and so on.

The only transperson I've ever known in real life was FTM, and he started transitioning at around 17. We were only "sort of friends", so I wasn't really in a position to ask personal questions which didn't come up organically, and we don't speak anymore, we didn't stay in touch after college ended, so I don't know how long he know he was trans. My other go to example for non-insane transpeople is Blaire White, who says she always knew she was different, but didn't necessarily have the words or frame of reference to say she was trans - an example she gives is that in kindergarten, when the teacher would say "girls go to this side of the room", BW would feel more inclined to go over to this side. She never really spoke of toys or clothes.

So to sum up, I'm not sure if a child can necessarily be trans, especially as a lot of "trans" kids grow out of it, but I do think the seeds are always there.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

The only transperson I've ever known in real life was FTM, and he started transitioning at around 17. We were only "sort of friends", so I wasn't really in a position to ask personal questions which didn't come up organically, and we don't speak anymore, we didn't stay in touch after college ended, so I don't know how long he know he was trans. My other go to example for non-insane transpeople is Blaire White, who says she always knew she was different, but didn't necessarily have the words or frame of reference to say she was trans - an example she gives is that in kindergarten, when the teacher would say "girls go to this side of the room", BW would feel more inclined to go over to this side. She never really spoke of toys or clothes.

So to sum up, I'm not sure if a child can necessarily be trans, especially as a lot of "trans" kids grow out of it, but I do think the seeds are always there.

Yeah I would probably agree with this tbh. The thinking of somethings not right could be there in childhood I guess. I would still question though, wether this is because 'gender' was enforced on the kids too much. Ie. A kid felt they HAD to say they were a boy because their parents said trucks were just for boys and whatnot.

I also feel theres an element of internalized homophobia to a lot of 'transkids'. Better to be trans than gay kind of thinking, obviously put into them by the adults in their lfie at some stage.

The desire to 'trans' kids who just break gender stereotypes though, is extremely homophobic. And is entirely driven by adults with their own agenda. This is just inexcusable, and I am so glad people are starting to speak up about this now. Surprised its taken so long. It annoys me that I was firmly in the 'transwomen ARE women' (and vice versa...just its usually transwomen who dominate any discussions...you very very rarely hear from transmen for some reason) camp until recently, I admit that I had never thought any deeper into it all. And the second I did stop to think that 'maybe, just maybe the 'terfs' might have a point' was when I turned fully gender critical. All it took for me was an introduction to the cotton ceiling concept, and then seeing quite how prominent that view is...the view that lesbians who refuse cock are transphobic. Hell even some 'trans allies' will scream about this too.

I now feel that to say a transwoman is a woman, is damaging to trans people and women alike.

I genuinely do think that the world would benefit so much if these 'transgender' people who do NOT have sex dysphoria would just break the stereotypes of their own sex. For example, be proud of wearing a dress to work if you are male, rather than having everyone pretend that you wearing a dress makes you an actual woman. Do not shout and scream about how your penis is female and your dress sense means you should be entitled to enter sex segregated areas. Once more people start to do this, the less fuss will be made about gender.

Hell we got close to 'abolishing gender' in the 80s. With Boy George and David Bowie and the likes of Prince who people looked up to leading the way.... How did we go so backwards in such a short space of time? People today will claim that these people I mention were actually trans. Its ****ing stupid.

[Vicky.]

One of these guys who hit the 60 year old woman is up in court next week.

And look at what the transactivists are planning for ****s sake.. (sorry it won't let me copy the images to post the actual images but they are in the OP of this)

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_...next-week?pg=1

I can see a bunch of people turning up at Westminster Court in balaclavas, facemasks and and unidentifiable clothing going down really really well with security

And asking for a human shield as they are scared of women.

And making out 'terfs' are some kind of planned group or something too. When they are infact just..people who believe in biology and are concerned for womens rights.

I do wonder if these nutjobs actually believe this crap that they say. They have said it so often that the lies start to become truths (inside their heads) maybe.

It is the responsibility of cis allies to let these TERFs know in person, on the day, that the violence they are attempting to perpetrate against one of our trans sisters is not done in our name

This is ridiculous too. Like..the only violence has been FROM transactivists to women. There has never been a case of a feminist attacking a transperson. Infact, when transpeople do get attacked, its almost exclusively by men, or other transpeople.

I can honestly just imagine this. A group of male people in balaclavas screaming that men who punch 60 year old women unprovoked (its the guy who ran from nowhere and punched her thats being prosecuted) should not receive punishment for said actions. And also that men should go to womens prisons. I am sure this will go down well with the general public, if they are not arrested before this for being terrorists or something.

[Oliver_W]

I read on Magdelen Berns' twitter feed that there have been more transwomen murderers than victims of murder. I never chased it up so I don't know how true it is, but there's at least a blog with sources to back it up..

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

I read on Magdelen Berns' twitter feed that there have been more transwomen murderers than victims of murder. I never chased it up so I don't know how true it is, but there's at least a blog with sources to back it up..

Yes, there are more transwomen murderers (in this country) than there are transwomen who have been murdered.

When transactivists spout about how transwomen are murdered all the time, most of the murders are in Brazil, and most of the people murdered were prostitutes also. And we all know how dangerous that job is. Not that that makes people getting murdered any less horrific mind, but these are sad facts of life.

Its quite disingenuous to use doctored statistics in the way the activists do. It puts fear into transpeople too, thinking there is a huge risk of them getting murdered when its simply not true.

[Oliver_W]

Again it's not something I've looked into, but I'm skeptical about the recent study saying that 1/8 transwomen are attacked at their place of work - is that sex work? Obviously sex workers deserve to go unattacked, but it'd be foolish to include it in a study to show how society as a whole hates traps.

[Toy Soldier]

I keep seeing this thread title, and thinking it sounds like a new version of Robot Wars, and then thinking I'd totally watch it. Craig Charles has to commentate though. "Oh she's been flipped over! But it's OK she has a sri-mech!"

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Again it's not something I've looked into, but I'm skeptical about the recent study saying that 1/8 transwomen are attacked at their place of work - is that sex work? Obviously sex workers deserve to go unattacked, but it'd be foolish to include it in a study to show how society as a whole hates traps.

No idea, I have not heard of that one. Will have a look tomorrow if I get time to fill my head full of even more transactivists propaganda But I would think that it would be sex work..no other job would have such high assault rate, no matter what the person doing it looked like.

It may be that prostitution is simply included in the stats and Brazil is counted, or only transpeople in Brazil were included fullstop. There are not that many trans people and a lot of them are into sex work (apparently the 'community' pressures some into it, I watched a video Blair White did that was heartbreaking tbh) so if sex work is included I can see how the rates are so high. It may well have been another 'self selecting' study like stonewalls recent one. Which claimed something like 50% of trans people are disabled :/

Women in prostitution

Women involved in prostitution had a mortality rate 12 times the normal rate for women in the same age group. 68% of street workers had experienced physical assault.

http://www.toynbeehall.org.uk/data/f...ostitution.pdf

62% reported having been raped in prostitution. 73% reported having experienced physical assault in prostitution. 72% were currently or formerly homeless. 92% stated that they wanted to escape prostitution immediately.

http://www.rapeis.org/activism/prost...tionfacts.html


---

So yeah, could definitely distort the stats

[Oliver_W]

Unless verbal abuse is also included as assault, I could certainly see a customer being like "**** you trannny" or something if they were annoyed, or just plain rude

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Unless verbal abuse is also included as assault, I could certainly see a customer being like "**** you trannny" or something if they were annoyed, or just plain rude

Well quite possibly, given apparently 'misgendering' is 'literal violence'

I would have thought that T word was censored on here..

[jaxie]

Interesting posts Oliver and Vicky. I know that Brillo says this a lot and I wonder if she's right when she says we're too PC sometimes nowadays. I wonder isn't going too far the wrong way sometimes so that acceptance of one thing starts to erode the rights of something else.

Like when you mention Lesbians being called names for not wanting to be with trans people. A lesbian is a gay woman, she desires other women. Of course she wouldn't fancy someone who often to the rest of the world looks like a bloke dressed as a woman and who has a penis. You can't just change what you are and who you want to suit someone else's agenda. People don't choose their sexual orientation it's part of them and to claim otherwise is a step backwards and a lot more 'homophobic' than the idea they don't fancy someone who is gender choosing.

[Jamie89]

I think the prostitution stats should be included. If they weren't then it wouldn't be an accurate representation of what trans people face. If for a lot of them, that it is their 'place of work', then why should their experiences be discounted, surely that would be a distortion of what is happening? I worked with a transwoman years ago, she was pre-op and didn't 'pass' (hate saying that but just to make the point), and she had the most horrendous time. She'd be out in the smoking shelter and other workers would stand right in front of her saying the most horrible things, people would walk past her and snigger at her and whisper to each other, it really wasn't subtle at all and she ended up quitting after a couple of weeks. It's no wonder that so many people like that in ordinary working situations can't handle the kind of treatment they sometimes get, trans people are often pushed out of 'ordinary' society and those people's experiences should be counted. They're still part of society, as are the people they come into contact with.

[Oliver_W]

If we just say "transwomen face high workplace violence", it's an incomplete thought.

It's like saying "men have the highest workplace fatalities", or "women and men earn different amounts." To add context, we include because they work more dangerous jobs and because they have different work habits respectively.

Sex workers in general face a lot of abuse, so to include it in stats about transpeople without clarifying makes it look like they face abuse in everyday jobs.

[waterhog]

with all due respect - I got my own wars = poetry wars and the winner is not me

[Vicky.]

The 1 in 8 figure came from the same self selecting stonewall survey that said that 51% of transpeople are disabled. It should really be taken with a pinch of salt. Just been reading up on it and discovered its something I have already been talking about elsewhere..though we were more concerned about the 51% of self identified trans people that are apparently disabled, as thats WAY above average.

Comes from here

https://www.stonewall.org.uk/lgbt-britain-trans-report

I find it extremely strange how stonewall decided this 1 in 8 stat was important, but totally ignored the very high number of trans people who identify as disabled. Which to me would be much more important and something that really should be investigated.