[Alf]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Enjoy your serious debates folks

Will do.

[DemolitionRed]

How will border controls change for those living outside of the EU? We presently have the Dublin Regulation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_Regulation plus the cooperation of the French. Surely if we take away those two things its going to be far easier for illegals to use Britain as a safe haven

[Ammi]

....just side-tracking and hijacking etc, that's very interesting to me personally because the complete opposite has been the case with every dyslexia child I've ever worked with, I don't recall an exception to that really...larger text makes more constant and smooth flow of reading for dyslexics and really helps a lot with the 'jumbling' effect that smaller text tends to quite often have, so magnifying lenses are usually recommended by dyslexia experts for use in schools, well at home as well and in every situation where the child reads...colour also is recognised and helps 'define' so coloured lenses are nearly always prescribed for dyslexic children to wear while they're reading..it's nice/interesting to learn new things of something I haven't personally come across before...

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Ammi

....just side-tracking and hijacking etc, that's very interesting to me personally because the complete opposite has been the case with every dyslexia child I've ever worked with, I don't recall an exception to that really...larger text makes more constant and smooth flow of reading for dyslexics and really helps a lot with the 'jumbling' effect that smaller text tends to quite often have, so magnifying lenses are usually recommended by dyslexia experts for use in schools, well at home as well and in every situation where the child reads...colour also is recognised and helps 'define' so coloured lenses are nearly always prescribed for dyslexic children to wear while they're reading..it's nice/interesting to learn new things of something I haven't personally come across before...

There are different types of dyslexia Ammi and so, as I'm sure you know, no two dyslexics are alike. I have visual/sensory and audio dyslexia as well as dyspraxia. I can't read royal green text at all and my head spins if I see lots of different colours of text on one page. I also have problems with large block words but its dependant on the syle of font. I use sylexiad but I know other dyslexics who have real problems with it. It definitely changes as you get older though because I used to like sasoon, which my dyslexic son now uses but now have trouble with that.

We are all different. I've never had much trouble with spelling but ask me to write down a group of numbers and its doubtful I can put them down in the order given to me.

[Ammi]

...no, there are never two 'absolute identicals' in these things as there aren't with anything..but in my own personal experience of working with many dyslexic children, the same has been prescribed and applied for all of magnified text plus colour tinted lenses/glasses as well as an individual plan for each child...wow, though..your school days must have been a very living nightmare with so many challenging difficulties and not being able to follow audio instructions either....both must obviously still cause you severe problems...I'm not familiar with sensory dyslexia but am familiar with Sensory Processing Disorder, which is usually more associated with things like Autism/OCD etc and something I have encountered but not with dyslexics, I have to say... so you're a bit of a phenomenon to me....and very interesting...

..one of my sons also has dyspraxia btw, so something I know about personally as well as through my job.../'the living with it', I guess you could say...he had no dominant side of left or right handed, which does still create problems for him in his life and really frustrating ones when he was at school...

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...no, there are never two 'absolute identicals' in these things as there aren't with anything..but in my own personal experience of working with many dyslexic children, the same has been prescribed and applied for all of magnified text plus colour tinted lenses/glasses as well as an individual plan for each child...wow, though..your school days must have been a very living nightmare with so many challenging difficulties and not being able to follow audio instructions either....both must obviously still cause you severe problems...I'm not familiar with sensory dyslexia but am familiar with Sensory Processing Disorder, which is usually more associated with things like Autism/OCD etc and something I have encountered but not with dyslexics, I have to say... so you're a bit of a phenomenon to me....and very interesting...

..one of my sons also has dyspraxia btw, so something I know about personally as well as through my job.../'the living with it', I guess you could say...he had no dominant side of left or right handed, which does still create problems for him in his life and really frustrating ones when he was at school...

I've started a thread on dyslexia Amy because this is totally off topic but I'll just respond to what you've said.

I've tried the shields but found I couldn't get along with them and so there was no point having tinted lenses. I still have a shield somewhere, I should dig it out.
I didn't get diagnosed before my late teens and only then because my parents really pushed for a diagnosis. Things have changed a lot since I was at school. I didn't get the help my son now gets.

A lot of people with my condition get wrongly diagnosed and put on the autistic spectrum.

I could tell you so much about how you feel to be a dyspraxic child Ammi. I've often thought about working with dyspraxic children, simply because I know the sort of inner anguish they go through. I know what really helped me and what hindered me.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

I've started a thread on dyslexia Amy because this is totally off topic but I'll just respond to what you've said.

I've tried the shields but found I couldn't get along with them and so there was no point having tinted lenses. I still have a shield somewhere, I should dig it out.
I didn't get diagnosed before my late teens and only then because my parents really pushed for a diagnosis. Things have changed a lot since I was at school. I didn't get the help my son now gets.

A lot of people with my condition get wrongly diagnosed and put on the autistic spectrum.

I could tell you so much about how you feel to be a dyspraxic child Ammi. I've often thought about working with dyspraxic children, simply because I know the sort of inner anguish they go through. I know what really helped me and what hindered me.

...I think I just found it thank you....I'll follow it with interest...

[Alf]

Not really a fair debate when my post's are being deleted.

There's things I don't agree with, but I get on with it.


If you believe in democracy you vote out, If you don't, then vote in, simple as that.

Briton's, never, never, never shall be slaves



I'll leave you all to enjoy debate, I don't stay where I'm not wanted.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by wannashag

Not really a fair debate when my post's are being deleted.

There's things I don't agree with, but I get on with it.


If you believe in democracy you vote out, If you don't, then vote in, simple as that.

Briton's, never, never, never shall be slaves



I'll leave you all to enjoy debate, I don't stay where I'm not wanted.

I WANT YOU MATE - PLEASE STICK AROUND.

I have had more posts disappear than the Royal Mail. You'll get used to it Shag.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

I sense a one sided clique forming...give it up guys because from where I'm sitting, this is starting to look awfully bitchy.

Then you really need to move seats because your view is grossly and conveniently distorted.

This is nothing more than an open debate, in which - by virtue of this being a forum - everyone is welcome to post contributions.

I have very often been the only one debating with several members who opposed my view, and quite often those 'several' included your good self.

It really is disingenous to keep claiming that this is anything but an open debate.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Then you really need to move seats because your view is grossly and conveniently distorted.

This is nothing more than an open debate, in which - by virtue of this being a forum - everyone is welcome to post contributions.

I have very often been the only one debating with several members who opposed my view, and quite often those 'several' included your good self.

It really is disingenous to keep claiming that this is anything but an open debate.

As was yours yesterday.

'LEAVE ME FECKING ALONE and concentrate PURELY on my contributions to the debates.'

Pictures of walls are not contributions to debates either Kirk, it's a double standard.

I can't bring myself to read the shouty coloured posts either,this isn't a debate it's like a Trump caucus everything is shouted over in glorious technicolour.
If a serious debate looked less like a tabloid headline it would help.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

As was yours yesterday.

'LEAVE ME FECKING ALONE and concentrate PURELY on my contributions to the debates.'

Pictures of walls are not contributions to debates either Kirk, it's a double standard.

I can't bring myself to read the shouty coloured posts either,this isn't a debate it's like a Trump caucus everything is shouted over in glorious technicolour.
If a serious debate looked less like a tabloid headline it would help.

First of all may I correct you that I did not post any 'pictures of walls' - that was Wannashag by his own admission and as the most fleeting of glances back through these posts will attest.

Secondly, I will correct your deliberate misrepresention concerning the part of my response to Kizzy which you disingenously quote COMPLETELY OUT OF CONTEXT.

YES, I did post to her; 'LEAVE ME FECKING ALONE and concentrate PURELY on my contributions to the debates.' BUT that was because she was not debating but criticising my use of colour and text - as you full well know.

I do not want to get into any personal arguments with you - or anyone else - because that will lead to me being banned for defending myself or correcting untrue allegations (as now for instance) and I am here to put forward my argument for exiting the corrupt EU and to debate THE SUBJECT MATTER should any other member wish to do so.

This IS A DEBATE should you or anyone else choose to make it one, and I will tone down my use of colour for you if that prevents you from reading my posts but I take it that larger text in bold black type is not a problem for you if used for the purposes of Headlines and illumination of key points in my posts?

The only thing I will politely ask of you, is that you refrain from falsely accusing me of things which I have NOT done, because this does happen a lot and it does appear like deliberate deflection because there is no valid counter to my argument.

If you want to counter what I claim then please do so, but do try to corroborate your claims as I do try to do with mine.

We are, after all, intelligent adults, and there really is no need for anything than debate of the subject matter - no matter how impassioned we may become.

[Kizzy]

Oh blah blah everything is disingenuous your word de jour, if it fails to meet your exacting standards that clearly you don't follow .
I didn't suggest you had posted the wall yet you guffawed your napper off at it, while a couple of posts earlier slagged me for posting pics in SD!
Double standards, big fat disingenuous double standards.

[Vicky.]

Only posts in here I can see that have been deleted was a pic of a brick wall and then people quoting it? Not sure how thats a debate. We do tend to delete offtopic or trivial posts in this section.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Oh blah blah everything is disingenuous your word de jour, if it fails to meet your exacting standards that clearly you don't follow .
I didn't suggest you had posted the wall yet you guffawed your napper off at it, while a couple of posts earlier slagged me for posting pics in SD!
Double standards, big fat disingenuous double standards.

I suggest you calm down. It is you who constantly use the new words which I have introduced you to. And STOP being aggressive and personal.

[Kizzy]

The lives of 2 million UK citizens living, working and travelling in the other 27 Member States would be affected if Britain was to leave the EU, according to an official government’s paper.

Britons leaving on the continent may lose a range of specific rights that are only guaranteed because of EU law. These include the rights to live and work but also access to pensions, health care and public service, the Cabinet office warned in his first official report into the impact of a future Brexit.

This would be a reality for expats, a shame for those who worked and saved to retire in the sun.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/bu...-a6903211.html

[Ammi]

...ok, whether it's wanted/appreciated/resented or whatever, I really don't care..I'm going to put my 10 euros into this...it makes no difference which seat you sit in from an observer's point of view/none whatsoever because all seats see the exact same thing and equal participation ...which is nothing at all to do with passion of opinions from the red or blue corner of shall we say, 'a handful of people'...it's just the sheer inability to be able to hold a debate with each other when it comes to political stances...the buttons pressed/the buttons reacted to being pressed etc are nothing to do with passion at all, they're just ridiculous and silly and spoiling it for those who are trying to post round the nonsense/those who are passionate and who do genuinely want to debate and who are trying desperately to not allow themselves to be distracted...and those others on the forum who also have genuine interest because the Euro referendum is so important...but their discussions/questions/debate etc can be found in other areas of their lives where they don't have the distraction of this nonsense and this becomes the last place they have any inclination to talk about...a shame really and a 'be careful what you all wish for', because without the respect for each different opinion and each input of reasons for in or out, all there would be left is, yes I agree, for sure, certainly and I concur, which isn't an informed debate at all but a bland and boring experience, I would think....Kirk, wanna, and bitontheside (if you've voted out of this thread and discussion..)...stop being silly now and get yourself back here and focus on your opinions on the referendum/nothing more, nothing less...

[Kizzy]

Thanks for trying to denigrate my views as not passion but the inability to hold a debate, strangely enough I don't agree but I'm sure you feel better for saying all that.

[Cherie]

I thought the brick was funny and could apply to both sides of the argument it didn't apply to the undecided who are sitting on it

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...ok, whether it's wanted/appreciated/resented or whatever, I really don't care..I'm going to put my 10 euros into this...it makes no difference which seat you sit in from an observer's point of view/none whatsoever because all seats see the exact same thing and equal participation ...which is nothing at all to do with passion of opinions from the red or blue corner of shall we say, 'a handful of people'...it's just the sheer inability to be able to hold a debate with each other when it comes to political stances...the buttons pressed/the buttons reacted to being pressed etc are nothing to do with passion at all, they're just ridiculous and silly and spoiling it for those who are trying to post round the nonsense/those who are passionate and who do genuinely want to debate and who are trying desperately to not allow themselves to be distracted...and those others on the forum who also have genuine interest because the Euro referendum is so important...but their discussions/questions/debate etc can be found in other areas of their lives where they don't have the distraction of this nonsense and this becomes the last place they have any inclination to talk about...a shame really and a 'be careful what you all wish for', because without the respect for each different opinion and each input of reasons for in or out, all there would be left is, yes I agree, for sure, certainly and I concur, which isn't an informed debate at all but a bland and boring experience, I would think....Kirk, wanna, and bitontheside (if you've voted out of this thread and discussion..)...stop being silly now and get yourself back here and focus on your opinions on the referendum/nothing more, nothing less...

A great post Ammi, written by someone impartial who has great peception.

I have never felt more strongly about anything in my life than I do about our membership of the EU, and I HAVE tried to focus only on the issues at hand.

I think many can see what always occurs on these threads when certain members are out-debated and are losing the argument - 'ganging up', subterfuge, devious tactics of deflection, false claims and 'Strawman' tactics are employed in an effort to 'drive off' those in opposition and therefore leave the thread to themselves for mutual backslapping and propaganda with NO counter views to give balance or inform.

My use of text size and colour is a classic example. These facilities are there to be used if any member so chooses, and I chose to use them because - by sheer necessity - posts on this very complex subject need to be lengthy if comprehensive, and either, KEY points tend to become overlooked in long pages of standard text, or long pages of standard text do deter some people from reading.

So, I used size and colour to highlight, and to try to induce people to actually read my posts.

Yet there has been NO comment on the actual content of those posts, merely a smokescreen of deflection about my legitimate use of the text size and colour.

THAT is NOT debate. That is attack for no VALID reason.

Anyway Ammi - thank you for your balanced post, I intend to keep posting AND in a manner which I see fit., and I genuinely hope Wannashag and BOTS will too.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

The lives of 2 million UK citizens living, working and travelling in the other 27 Member States would be affected if Britain was to leave the EU, according to an official government’s paper.

Britons leaving on the continent may lose a range of specific rights that are only guaranteed because of EU law. These include the rights to live and work but also access to pensions, health care and public service, the Cabinet office warned in his first official report into the impact of a future Brexit.

This would be a reality for expats, a shame for those who worked and saved to retire in the sun.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/bu...-a6903211.html

Interesting article, I follow some of the expat forums as we have a place in Spain, hard to see how the out camp can counter these claims as each individual country would be able to set their own rules

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

The lives of 2 million UK citizens living, working and travelling in the other 27 Member States would be affected if Britain was to leave the EU, according to an official government’s paper.

Britons leaving on the continent may lose a range of specific rights that are only guaranteed because of EU law. These include the rights to live and work but also access to pensions, health care and public service, the Cabinet office warned in his first official report into the impact of a future Brexit.

This would be a reality for expats, a shame for those who worked and saved to retire in the sun.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/bu...-a6903211.html

So is this you now posting a report by the TORY GOVERNMENT as factual corroboration to support your 'Vote To Remain IN' stance?

The very SAME TORY GOVERNMENT whom you have spent years despising?
The very SAME TORY GOVERNMENT whose every other 'statement you have hailed as 'lies' or 'spin'?

What is happening?

I mean, I am puzzled by the very fact that you IGNORE all the evidence of how our membership of the corrupt EU is HURTING the poor of this country, but you now express great sympathy for what MAY (or MAY NOT) be the plight of the more well off who have had the means - however gained - to be able to retire to a 'life in the sun'.

What is happening?

Some of the TORY party have a huge vested interest in keeping us in the EU, hence the frenetic campaign of hysterical 'fear mongering' over what MAY occur if we vote to leave their beloved EU - the EU which generates huge covert personal income for themselves and the corporations which keep them in power and in funds, and all at the expense of the British Taxpayers, many of whom are struggling to exist on inadequate wages.

42 years of huge multi-billion pound net deficits for belonging to an organisation which has delivered very little by return which actually justifies the cost of membership, and YET the Tories are hellbent on keeping us in.

OWEN JONES - the dahling of the Left Wing strongly advocates all on the Left to vote OUT.

THE SOCIALIST PARTY OF SCOTLAND and THE SOCIALIST PARTY OF ENGLAND AND WALES strongly advocate all those on the Left to vote OUT.

Editorial statement from the Socialist Party England and Wales and Scotland



"The referendum on 23 June is not just about the EU but is also an opportunity to pass verdict on Cameron and his rotten government.
An ‘out’ vote would strike a mortal blow at the government"

"It is wrong and a serious mistake for Jeremy Corbyn and Labour to be supporting an ‘in’ vote that could inadvertently lead to an escape for this Tory government on the ropes."

" Corbyn… and the GMB

"Jeremy Corbyn and others on the left were wrong to succumb under pressure from Labour’s right wing to the argument that the EU is advantageous for workers and so advocated a vote to stay in it. One of the consequences of that mistake is that his referendum campaigning will be improving the chances of a victory for Cameron and the continuation of Tory austerity."

"Also, the trade union leaders are mistaken in looking to provisions from a “social Europe” as a way to counter the anti-union and anti-worker attacks of a right-wing government like Cameron’s. A future UK government elected on the anti-austerity programme Corbyn stood on in the Labour leadership election would soon be confronted with the anti-working class character of the EU."

I do not agree with most of their reasons, but I applaud their passion and totally agree with their decision to vote OUT.

As to the fate of 'ex-pats' should we leave the EU - well, NO ONE KNOWS but I do not believe that they will be abandonded.

But here is where Cameron and pro-EU Tory Government are 'hoisting themselves on their own petards' because - and think clearly about this - Here we have a BRITISH PRIME MINISTER and his GOVERNMENT attempting to spread fear and panic among the British people to evince them to 'Vote to Remain' in the EU, and ALL that scaremongering is based squarely upon the UNCERTAINTIES of what MAY or MAY NOT happen if we leave.

SHOULD NOT THE BRITISH PRIME MINISTER AND HIS GOVERNMENT HAVE LONG BEEN BUSY ANALYSING THE EFFECTS OF A BREXIT, AND HAVE LONG BEEN CALCULATING WHICH COURSE OF ACTION THEY SHOULD TAKE ON ALL SUCH MATTERS AS EX-PATS etc. IN THE EVENT OF US LEAVING THE EU?

SHOULD A BRITISH PRIME MINISTER REALLY BE SO CLUELESS AND HYSTERICALLY ALARMED BY THE EFFECTS OF A BREXIT WHEN THAT HAS BEEN A DISTINCT POSSIBILITY FOR YEARS?

I have supported Cameron and a lot of his policies in the past and still do - but on this ALL CRUCIAL matter, he is being nefarious, deceitful, alarmist, and guilty of the most atrocious lies and scaremongering - all in the interest of self and the corporate elititists.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

but you now express great sympathy for what MAY (or MAY NOT) be the plight of the more well off who have had the means - however gained - to be able to retire to a 'life in the sun'.




As to the fate of 'ex-pats' should we leave the EU - well, NO ONE KNOWS but I do not believe that they will be abandonded.

Are you inferring that most expats are hugely wealthy or have made their money by nefarious means? naturally some will fall into this category but a huge number emigrated as the cost of living used to be a lot cheaper and their pensions stretched further, the weather is better and ironically enough to escape immigration into the UK, but forgetting that by doing this they were now guests in their home country and would at times be treated with the same suspicion that they had treated people here.


That is the whole problem with the OUT campaign, no one can confidently claim what will happen with anything, apart from maybe immigration? so isn't it voting for an unknown?

[MTVN]

Even with immigration there is no chance that we would be a part of the single market without accepting free movement as well. The Eurosceptics like to herald Norway and Switzerland as examples of successful countries outside of the EU yet both have to accept free movement of people as the price for access to the single market and both have to abide by the vast majority of EU regulation. People like IDS think it would be simple to arrange free trade agreements with the EU member countries, well it took Canada seven years to negotiate their free trade deal! Yes it will be in their interests to continue trading with the UK but it will also be in their interests to make sure that we don't have it easy if we do want to leave. These leaders are all accountable to their own populations and they don't want to give momentum to anti-EU movements in their own countries.

[Alf]

I may as well talk to a brick wall.