[Vicky.]

I don't understand why we would be taking away future generations freedom by remaining in the EU? Mind as I said, I haven't researched it properly or anything.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Alf

And we has people will never be able to vote the EU out, so a few years sounds great doesn't it?

Just think of the freedom you're taking away from future generations by voting to stay in the Soviet Union sorry European Union. When Britain is finally dead (which it will be if we don't stand up for ourselves), the future generations will look in the history books (if they've not been burnt) and see that we had the opportunity to do something to save it. They wont be very proud of us, the way we're proud of our past generations who fought for our freedom.

What freedoms don't they have now, what freedoms will they have once we're out?
Stand up for ourselves.... you're creating a situation which doesn't exist, our relationship with the rest of the world it tentative at best and you feel our greatest threat comes from our NATO allied countries? :/
They fought for rights, how will being out of the EU protect those rights?.... What safeguards will there be? Nobody knows.

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I don't understand why we would be taking away future generations freedom by remaining in the EU? Mind as I said, I haven't researched it properly or anything.

We will be taking many freedoms away by leaving the EU i think.

For me the biggest benefit of europe is that we are not isolated. We have a large community that is duty bound to help us if we ever end up in a bit of bother. Of course, we never want to be in that position, but having a safety net and partners always there is a great benefit. Isolation is never great and always leads to problems in the end

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

We will be taking many freedoms away by leaving the EU i think.

For me the biggest benefit of europe is that we are not isolated. We have a large community that is duty bound to help us if we ever end up in a bit of bother. Of course, we never want to be in that position, but having a safety net and partners always there is a great benefit. Isolation is never great and always leads to problems in the end

Oh Yeah - The way they have helped Greece.

More rhetoric based on zilch facts.

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Oh Yeah - The way they have helped Greece.

More rhetoric based on zilch facts.

Thanks for that constructive and informative response. Greece was helped, without the EU, it would have been completely ****ed

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

What freedoms don't they have now, what freedoms will they have once we're out?
Stand up for ourselves.... you're creating a situation which doesn't exist, our relationship with the rest of the world it tentative at best and you feel our greatest threat comes from our NATO allied countries? :/
They fought for rights, how will being out of the EU protect those rights?.... What safeguards will there be? Nobody knows.

Wait until Turkey gets the freedom of Europe and then we'll see.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Alf

Wait until Turkey gets the freedom of Europe and then we'll see.

Yeah, that's not happening.

[arista]

Boris is Live on SkyNewsHD
he is at Dartford

Talking about French Corruption
set up long before the EU started


Boris says take back our money
back - we do not need this EU

[Livia]

The "In" campaign just gets more desperate every day. Who, in their right mind, wants a foreign body, unelected by the British people, making laws for our country? I'm particularly amused by the suggestion that we will have no rights if we vote to leave... because obviously, before Tony Blair and his entourage, this place was like a dictatorship, right? And the fragrant Mrs Blair foisted the Human Rights Bill on us... which has been used almost continuously to aid some of the most odious criminals.

I'm totally with Boris on this one. Out. It's the right way.

[joeysteele]

Yet still no one is able to give the assurances needed to,in my view, even think of change.

The more David Cameron says on this makes the staying in argument spot on.
Whereas for many of those who are undecided,nothing is coming from Boris, Gove,Farage or any of the others in the 'no'camp, with real substance and guarantees being stated as to how successful or better, or even more to the point, if we would likely even stay the same were the UK to leave the EU.

All we are getting from the out camp, is we would save some funding we pay to the EU,they present a figure and ignore all the funding we hold onto ,get back or what comes as investment from other Nations because we are in the EU in the first place.

Cameron and those leading the in argument,have decades of both opportunity and success the UK has achieved while being in the EU despite those payments to the EU and the conditions of membership too.
To be a bit like a broken record, we will have not so good times,really difficult times and also good times being in the EU as we have for decades now.
Working through those difficult times together with the EU at times too because we are full members.

What is still not being guaranteed by any in the out camp, is how successful we 'will' be out the EU, how we 'will' cope with really difficult times when they arise and also what 'really will' be our trading deals and the full costs of same once out of the EU.
We already know for sure being 'in' how we will cope with hose scenarios because we have done it with the EU for decades now.

Without those assurances and clear plans from the 'out' camp, then really for me, the choice is an easy one and for me it is not to jeopardise the status, success and confidence we already have as a Nation in the EU by taking a road full of possibilities, maybes,don't know yet and absolutely no secure future guarantees.

All we get from the out camp is the endless presentation of all things seemingly bad as they see it to them, not to all, as to the EU as if there is not good at all with the EU.

We are there, we are a full member of the EU, we have shared success and overcome many difficulties while being there too.
Govts of both main Parties have signed treaties they maybe should not have,however that was done, we signed up to all that has come from the EU.
We do not have to do that any more however even as a member, all future treaties from the EU have to be put to the voters in a referendum for approval before any PM could sign it.
We are out the Euro, it is absurb to keep going on about the Euro, we have refused to join it many times now,our position is clear,we will not join it at all.

So we have now in place many assurances as to the future from the EU and by our own legislation when the coalition put in place that no further treaty can be signed in future by any PM,it has to be put to the UK voters.
So the picture within the EU is far clearer,not perfect by any means, but a lot clearer than all the fog that engulfs all the pitfalls were we to come out.
Pitfalls we maybe even yet don't know will even be there on top of the ifs and maybes of trade deals and costs of same and other security and status issues.

Walking into that minefield of ifs, possibilities ad maybes for me is a definite 'no no' and I have heard not a single thing from the out camp at all as to the clearing of any doubts as to same with any real guaranteed assurances for the UKs future.

Again today Boris has said nothing and been able to guarantee nothing either to relieve any fears doubters as to leaving will surely have in my opinion,in fact the more he waffles on the more convinced I am this is his own personal ambition for himself and little to do with the UK.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Livia

The "In" campaign just gets more desperate every day. Who, in their right mind, wants a foreign body, unelected by the British people, making laws for our country? I'm particularly amused by the suggestion that we will have no rights if we vote to leave... because obviously, before Tony Blair and his entourage, this place was like a dictatorship, right? And the fragrant Mrs Blair foisted the Human Rights Bill on us... which has been used almost continuously to aid some of the most odious criminals.

I'm totally with Boris on this one. Out. It's the right way.

The out campaigners are getting more and more desperate and the in campaigners are getting more and more desperate but if you sit in one camp, you will only witness desperation from the opposing camp.
I sit on neither side and so I don't speak with forked tongue.

When Tony Blair was our PM, neo-liberalism was just in its infancy. Since Blair the neo-liberal experiment has grown into something that makes classical conservatism no longer recognisable in this country. Since Blair, this country is transitioning more and more into a mini America and America is one of the most unequal societies on earth. We now live on a spit of sand where radical exclusion is the order of the day and whilst I'm alright chuck, for the sake of my children and the sake of my future grandchildren, I don't want to risk this steam train of neo-liberalism getting its dirty mitts on their futures.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Again today Boris has said nothing and been able to guarantee nothing either to relieve any fears doubters as to leaving will surely have in my opinion,in fact the more he waffles on the more convinced I am this is his own personal ambition for himself and little to do with the UK.

Absofeckinglutely

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Livia

The "In" campaign just gets more desperate every day. Who, in their right mind, wants a foreign body, unelected by the British people, making laws for our country? I'm particularly amused by the suggestion that we will have no rights if we vote to leave... because obviously, before Tony Blair and his entourage, this place was like a dictatorship, right? And the fragrant Mrs Blair foisted the Human Rights Bill on us... which has been used almost continuously to aid some of the most odious criminals.

I'm totally with Boris on this one. Out. It's the right way.

The human rights act has flaws but if you think we should trust this particular govt to bring in anything better, than that is for sure not for me at all.

The Maastricht treaty signed by John Major was one of the worst treaties as to the EU.
Not just Labour and Tony Blair are to blame for all that is wrong with the EU.

Blair was wrong to want to join the Euro however he was thwarted by Gordon Brown on that one and had the conditions been right, the Conservatives would have likely had us in the Euro too before the 1997 election.
However things got really difficult.

No way however do I want this govt to be now in charge of planning a human rights or British bill of rights,it scares me rotten thinking what this govt and particularly the likes of Ian Duncan Smith would love to do outside the human rights act as it is.

I'd rather change be made to some elements of the human rights act as it is but not to leave it,no way for me, not after watching and seeing the heartlessness of this govt.

I also don't agree at all the in camp is desperate,both are making unnecessary claims at times but the in camp can point to decades of success within the EU.
What can the out camp promise us for sure, you are an out person,help the undecided with certainties for the future, as the in camp can now with where we are in the EU for decades now.

This is not 1973 now, the Commonwealth and the World has changed,all have moved on.
It for me would be almost like going back to a place we may have loved as a child,you go looking for what was there before but when you get there, nothing or little is in fact like it was before.

So again, if the out camp give guarantees they may have a more valid argument other than just indicating, lets pick our ball up and stop playing with these anymore, lets look elsewhere to see if we can find others to play with,with absolutely no certainty as to finding any better or even as good whatsoever.

Boris too, even when he stops waffling and mumbling a bit, has not for me said a single thing of note on this issue really.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Livia

The "In" campaign just gets more desperate every day. Who, in their right mind, wants a foreign body, unelected by the British people, making laws for our country? I'm particularly amused by the suggestion that we will have no rights if we vote to leave... because obviously, before Tony Blair and his entourage, this place was like a dictatorship, right? And the fragrant Mrs Blair foisted the Human Rights Bill on us... which has been used almost continuously to aid some of the most odious criminals.

I'm totally with Boris on this one. Out. It's the right way.

Yes he made a great deal of sense

[DemolitionRed]

Here's a question.
Would Brexit make it better or worse for the UK when the fourth industrial revolution hits?

This working paper gives an overview of the new possibilities opened up by the 4th industrial revolution and tackles some specific questions in relation to its effects on the labour market, including on the status of employees, on working conditions and on training. It examines the role that trade unions can play in the digital economy and the main initiatives already proposed at European trade union level in this context.
http://www.etui.org/en/Publications2...labour-markets

This paper has been written and predicted on current experiences but how would Brexit handle such a change. Could we handle such changes on our own?

[bitontheslide]

What I have noted so far is an acceptance by all that the EU is not perfect, it has faults. We have all been made well aware of them in minutest detail. The out camp have yet to remove the rose coloured glasses on being on our own. Not a single admission that things may be less than ideal if we vote out. We live in the real world, we know there will be issues. Why have they not come clean

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

What I have noted so far is an acceptance by all that the EU is not perfect, it has faults. We have all been made well aware of them in minutest detail. The out camp have yet to remove the rose coloured glasses on being on our own. Not a single admission that things may be less than ideal if we vote out. We live in the real world, we know there will be issues. Why have they not come clean

This^ Critical analysis is a necessary part of change.

[Alf]

What does the future hold in or out? No one knows What the future holds, because it hasn't been written.

The future will be what we make it, but paying a net sum of £8.5 billion a year for non-Brits to make our rules and regulations for us, can't be good for Britain.

The EU is basically a way of bringing back a sort of slavery, it's slavery hidden behind bureaucracy.

Working class Britain's fight for a better wage, people don't want to pay workers any more than they can get away with, so how do they get away with paying as little as possible? They know minimum wage is a lot of money to Eastern Europeans and they'll happily do back breaking work for minimum wage, so working class Britain's hit the dole queues, and Eastern European country's are stripped of their workers.

If you was true Labour, you'd want out.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

What I have noted so far is an acceptance by all that the EU is not perfect, it has faults. We have all been made well aware of them in minutest detail. The out camp have yet to remove the rose coloured glasses on being on our own. Not a single admission that things may be less than ideal if we vote out. We live in the real world, we know there will be issues. Why have they not come clean

Exactly, and as you say looking at being out only with rose coloured glasses,whereas the EU with us in can be seen very clearly no matter what glasses may be used or indeed even none.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

[/B]
Exactly, and as you say looking at being out only with rose coloured glasses,whereas the EU with us in can be seen very clearly no matter what glasses may be used or indeed even none.

You're right about that, it sure can be seen very clearly.

We're not having a referendum for the fun of it, half of the people of the Country have had enough, The common market is what the people voted into, not a European super-state.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

[/B]
Exactly, and as you say looking at being out only with rose coloured glasses,whereas the EU with us in can be seen very clearly no matter what glasses may be used or indeed even none.

Do you think we should scrap the pound, and have the Euro? I mean, if we're gonna be in, let's be totally committed.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Livia

The "In" campaign just gets more desperate every day. Who, in their right mind, wants a foreign body, unelected by the British people, making laws for our country? I'm particularly amused by the suggestion that we will have no rights if we vote to leave... because obviously, before Tony Blair and his entourage, this place was like a dictatorship, right? And the fragrant Mrs Blair foisted the Human Rights Bill on us... which has been used almost continuously to aid some of the most odious criminals.

I'm totally with Boris on this one. Out. It's the right way.

Yep.I'm with Boris,The Queen and you.Out!

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Alf

What does the future hold in or out? No one knows What the future holds, because it hasn't been written.

The future will be what we make it, but paying a net sum of £8.5 billion a year for non-Brits to make our rules and regulations for us, can't be good for Britain.

The EU is basically a way of bringing back a sort of slavery, it's slavery hidden behind bureaucracy.

Working class Britain's fight for a better wage, people don't want to pay workers any more than they can get away with, so how do they get away with paying as little as possible? They know minimum wage is a lot of money to Eastern Europeans and they'll happily do back breaking work for minimum wage, so working class Britain's hit the dole queues, and Eastern European country's are stripped of their workers.

If you was true Labour, you'd want out.

^Good points

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Alf

Do you think we should scrap the pound, and have the Euro? I mean, if we're gonna be in, let's be totally committed.

No I don't and its not an issue anyway as we have declined to join the Euro more than once, also it is even moreso not for us after David Cameron's deal too.

We are now full members and not having to have the Euro, that satisfies me.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Alf

You're right about that, it sure can be seen very clearly.

We're not having a referendum for the fun of it, half of the people of the Country have had enough, The common market is what the people voted into, not a European super-state.

Actually that is not substantiated with respect,we do not know at all if half the people have had enough, we will need to wait and see how everyone votes to gain that knowledge.

Furthermore, I know many people who 100% wanted a referendum to settle the issue once and for all but who will be also still voting to stay in.