[MojoNixon]

Originally Posted by lime

Where did I say UNICEF had anything to do with the flotilla???

I was commenting on your statement that the only people complaing about the Gaza crisis are charity workers.

You seem to be trying make out that the Gaza citizens are getting all the aid they need through aid that Israel allows.And you know this because your Muslim,yes that's Muslim friends in Gaza tell you so as they are seeing that the aid gets through.Next time would you please ask them if that is so how come 12000 children under 5 die there every year from preventable diseases??

Check UNICEF stats for Gaza.

I would never condone the actions of Hamas in fact I condemn it.
If the point of the blockade is to stop rockets etc reaching Hamas then the blockade is not working is it.

[MassiveTruck]

Originally Posted by lime

Where did I say UNICEF had anything to do with the flotilla???

I was commenting on your statement that the only people complaing about the Gaza crisis are charity workers.

You seem to be trying make out that the Gaza citizens are getting all the aid they need through aid that Israel allows.And you know this because your Muslim,yes that's Muslim friends in Gaza tell you so as they are seeing that the aid gets through.Next time would you please ask them if that is so how come 12000 children under 5 die there every year from preventable diseases??

Check UNICEF stats for Gaza.

I would never condone the actions of Hamas in fact I condemn it.
If the point of the blockade is to stop rockets etc reaching Hamas then the blockade is not working is it.

This makes me laugh.

What do you want? New York City over night in Palestine? NHS hospitals? A Western education system?

It's a bloody developing state that has suffered at the hands of Islamic extremists who sell aid for weapons. People make out Palestine is some holy land desecrated by the evil semites when in fact it is a haven for crime and massed of disorganised undeveloped communities.

This has been the state ever since the late 19th century. The Jews came in and built an economy from absolutely nothing and the Arabs wanted a share of it without doing the hard work and putting in the effort, LOL - there were no Arabs to do the hard work - the jews actually gave the Arabs and economy but they have complained for a whole century, not only against the Jews but between themselves and all this because they wanted something that was not theres.

Why should Jews give part of their hard earned labour for? They worked a whole century developing something and when the Jews are ready to share it with the Arabs, they throw their toys out of their prams and want more - simply because they think they have an historic right over the land? The Jews were the first settlers there if I am not mistaken but oddly, because the Arabs are a nomadic culture they think they own any place they sit down or have ever sat down.

Ridiculous nonsense. They make their bed and then expect the west to clear up the rubbish all the while insulting is and calling us decadent and heathens. Pathetic.

[setanta]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

every right to bludgeon them with iron bars and try and drown and kill them


?

get real

I doubt very much that the Israeli's didn't provoke them a little. What am I even talking about.... invading a ship in international waters is provocation enough. They f$cked this one up badly.

[MojoNixon]

Originally Posted by setanta

I doubt very much that the Israeli's didn't provoke them a little. What am I even talking about.... invading a ship in international waters is provocation enough. They f$cked this one up badly.

Typical leftie point of few. Maybe you should move to Iran, you could be closer to em and help em.

[setanta]

Originally Posted by MojoNixon

Typical leftie point of few. Maybe you should move to Iran, you could be closer to em and help em.

Nothing lefty about it: I'm simply judging this event on it's own.

[MojoNixon]

Originally Posted by setanta

Nothing lefty about it: I'm simply judging this event on it's own.

Nope. You are leftie, you just don't know it.

[setanta]

Originally Posted by MojoNixon

Nope. You are leftie, you just don't know it.

Oh, go away. You know nothing about me and are letting your feelings persuade you on what is, in my eyes, a very simple case of Israel botching up big time on an international level..

[MojoNixon]

Originally Posted by setanta

Oh, go away. You know nothing about me and are letting your feelings persuade you on what is, in my eyes, a very simple case of Israel botching up big time on an international level..

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by ElProximo

Oh shut the hell up you big woman's blouse. How annoying.

Ouch that really hurt, cut me to the quick. (The more correct term is Big Girls Blouse) Fuckwit.

Originally Posted by MassiveTruck

Aid is always going into Gaza on a regular basis. The only people complaining are charity workers who have donators and investors to please, most of them from an Islamic persuasion, persuading another revolt against Jews as they've been told from birth that Jews are evil and so are Christians according to Islam.

Stop the Saudi families and Iran from giving Hamas military ammunition and this all ends. Remove oil from the equation and it won't last beyond a weekend.

Aid may be going in but it is an insufficient amount, the UN states its about 25% of what is actually needed to sustain the Palestinian people. Thats why food etc is smuggled in from Egypt in tunnels.

I do agree that backing to Hamas should be stopped but a blockade that slowly starves an entire people is wrong. If you look back and understand why Hamas was voted into power you will see Israel were the root cause.

I take it you didnt see Tony Blair on the news last night making the same claims and asking that Israel at least operate the blockade imposed on Gaza in a humanitarian way?

Originally Posted by MassiveTruck

It's a bloody developing state that has suffered at the hands of Islamic extremists who sell aid for weapons. People make out Palestine is some holy land desecrated by the evil semites when in fact it is a haven for crime and massed of disorganised undeveloped communities.

This has been the state ever since the late 19th century. The Jews came in and built an economy from absolutely nothing and the Arabs wanted a share of it without doing the hard work and putting in the effort, LOL - there were no Arabs to do the hard work - the jews actually gave the Arabs and economy but they have complained for a whole century, not only against the Jews but between themselves and all this because they wanted something that was not theres.

Why should Jews give part of their hard earned labour for? They worked a whole century developing something and when the Jews are ready to share it with the Arabs, they throw their toys out of their prams and want more - simply because they think they have an historic right over the land? The Jews were the first settlers there if I am not mistaken but oddly, because the Arabs are a nomadic culture they think they own any place they sit down or have ever sat down.

Ridiculous nonsense. They make their bed and then expect the west to clear up the rubbish all the while insulting is and calling us decadent and heathens. Pathetic.

Palestine was a mandated area under the League of Nations since just after the first world war. The jewish people supported by US President Wison decided to ignore the mandate and stated moving into the area having tried and failed to take over areas of Africa to form a homeland. Israel wasnt formed until 1948.

Not all Arabs follow a nomadic way of life there was towns Villages and cities there before the Jewish people decided to take over it.

By being the first to settle the area do you mean the tribes of Israel under Moses etc? If so re read your bible, they fought battles against peoples back then to clear the area first.

Originally Posted by MojoNixon

Typical leftie point of few. Maybe you should move to Iran, you could be closer to em and help em.

What a ****ing ignorant statement Mojo, I expected better from you, why would a leftie want to go to Iran, the regime is a little right wing over there, in fact so right wing it makes Attilla the ****ing hun look like Karl Marx.

[MassiveTruck]

Originally Posted by Shasown

Aid may be going in but it is an insufficient amount, the UN states its about 25% of what is actually needed to sustain the Palestinian people. Thats why food etc is smuggled in from Egypt in tunnels.

I do agree that backing to Hamas should be stopped but a blockade that slowly starves an entire people is wrong. If you look back and understand why Hamas was voted into power you will see Israel were the root cause.

I take it you didnt see Tony Blair on the news last night making the same claims and asking that Israel at least operate the blockade imposed on Gaza in a humanitarian way?



Palestine was a mandated area under the League of Nations since just after the first world war. The jewish people supported by US President Wison decided to ignore the mandate and stated moving into the area having tried and failed to take over areas of Africa to form a homeland. Israel wasnt formed until 1948.

Not all Arabs follow a nomadic way of life there was towns Villages and cities there before the Jewish people decided to take over it.

By being the first to settle the area do you mean the tribes of Israel under Moses etc? If so re read your bible, they fought battles against peoples back then to clear the area first.

OK, question your logic for a moment.

If only 25% is going in (I've heard, not enough... but 25% (and then you have to question HOW MUCH aid and who pays for it)) then, considering, we know 10 thousand to 20 thousand tonnes if pumped in regularly for 1.5 million people, on a weekly basis and this is not enough... how could a convoy of ships, yes?, with 15,000 tonnes of aid only have been enough?

That's just the first part of how ridiculously stupid this stunt was but also how it had nothing to do with aid.

Now... about aid... as I said in the previous post - should Gaza hold us to ransom for their development? If they, as a state, cannot elect or allow Israel to fund them and create a thriving economy (which is what the Arabs wanted a part of and couldn't achieve over millenia, more on this late) then they die. That's just about as simple as it is.

On the one hand, Gaza thinks the US and the UK and the west and China and India are all corrupt and nasty and decadent and liberal nutcases but they want millions and millions of pounds of our aid. Oh it's fine to take our freebies but Eff off with your principles... now how does that work?

We cannot build Gaza. Charities cannot build Gaza. They have a lifeline from Israel which they don't accept because, Oh my God, they're Jews - evil Jews... and we want our country back (which was never theirs).

Now quickly about who owns Israel. Well... nobody does. But who ruined Israel - well that one is easy... the Muslims did. Post Mohammed, actually pre-Mohammed being kicked out of a town in Arabia the large proportion of that part of the world was nomadic. You went where the food was and where your cattle grazed. The Bible says one thing but they were all nomadic. Up until the 19th century that was the case until it was important to create a state in Palestine and who built that, who formulated it, who created an amazing economy - the Jews... while the Arabs just twiddle their thumbs wanting everything the Jews had built. Have the Arabs done that in any of their other states? God no... they just don't know how to do anything other than fighting against other muslims. That's all they've been about since the beginning of time. They went into Israel, converted everybody into Islam with a sword and fear and then moved on until they were pushed back from southern Spain because they knew nothing of trade and development and were kicked out when they ran out of money. This has been the state of muslims and will continue to be when they run out of oil in the middle east and continue terrorist activity which is the only commodity they appear to know when they haven't got ownership of natural resources.

While the rest of the world is thriving.

There was no need therefore for this convoy to go there. Biden has said, like he always says, come to us and the UK says, come to us, we'll negotiate delivery of aid... what's wrong with that? It was a miniscule amount of aid compared to what is delivered in there... but you tell me in terms of aid.

Is enough aid being sent to India?

How about Pakistan? Afghanistan? China? Africa? South America??

Who gets enough aid? OK... how about the UK... do we, in our sink estates, in our inner cities, get enough aid? Who gets enough aid in the world today?

How about people who need drugs for their disease or people without healthcare...

Which poverty stricken individual in the world today gets aid?

You see the problem with the logic when trying to give charity?

Gaza is getting aid but if anybody thinks we're going to create Bath Spa over night there is living on cloud cuckoo land!

A lot countries need aid. It's not a perfect world but the Muslims and their "charities" shouldn't be forcing people to give aid in one part of of the world, one miniscule area of the world when the west are trying to pump money all over the world.

Gaza needs to realise they have no higher sense of entitlement over others.

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by MassiveTruck

OK, question your logic for a moment.

If only 25% is going in (I've heard, not enough... but 25% (and then you have to question HOW MUCH aid and who pays for it)) then, considering, we know 10 thousand to 20 thousand tonnes if pumped in regularly for 1.5 million people, on a weekly basis and this is not enough... how could a convoy of ships, yes?, with 15,000 tonnes of aid only have been enough?

That's just the first part of how ridiculously stupid this stunt was but also how it had nothing to do with aid.

Now... about aid... as I said in the previous post - should Gaza hold us to ransom for their development? If they, as a state, cannot elect or allow Israel to fund them and create a thriving economy (which is what the Arabs wanted a part of and couldn't achieve over millenia, more on this late) then they die. That's just about as simple as it is.

On the one hand, Gaza thinks the US and the UK and the west and China and India are all corrupt and nasty and decadent and liberal nutcases but they want millions and millions of pounds of our aid. Oh it's fine to take our freebies but Eff off with your principles... now how does that work?

We cannot build Gaza. Charities cannot build Gaza. They have a lifeline from Israel which they don't accept because, Oh my God, they're Jews - evil Jews... and we want our country back (which was never theirs).

Now quickly about who owns Israel. Well... nobody does. But who ruined Israel - well that one is easy... the Muslims did. Post Mohammed, actually pre-Mohammed being kicked out of a town in Arabia the large proportion of that part of the world was nomadic. You went where the food was and where your cattle grazed. The Bible says one thing but they were all nomadic. Up until the 19th century that was the case until it was important to create a state in Palestine and who built that, who formulated it, who created an amazing economy - the Jews... while the Arabs just twiddle their thumbs wanting everything the Jews had built. Have the Arabs done that in any of their other states? God no... they just don't know how to do anything other than fighting against other muslims. That's all they've been about since the beginning of time. They went into Israel, converted everybody into Islam with a sword and fear and then moved on until they were pushed back from southern Spain because they knew nothing of trade and development and were kicked out when they ran out of money. This has been the state of muslims and will continue to be when they run out of oil in the middle east and continue terrorist activity which is the only commodity they appear to know when they haven't got ownership of natural resources.

While the rest of the world is thriving.

There was no need therefore for this convoy to go there. Biden has said, like he always says, come to us and the UK says, come to us, we'll negotiate delivery of aid... what's wrong with that? It was a miniscule amount of aid compared to what is delivered in there... but you tell me in terms of aid.

Is enough aid being sent to India?

How about Pakistan? Afghanistan? China? Africa? South America??

Who gets enough aid? OK... how about the UK... do we, in our sink estates, in our inner cities, get enough aid? Who gets enough aid in the world today?

How about people who need drugs for their disease or people without healthcare...

Which poverty stricken individual in the world today gets aid?

You see the problem with the logic when trying to give charity?

Gaza is getting aid but if anybody thinks we're going to create Bath Spa over night there is living on cloud cuckoo land!

A lot countries need aid. It's not a perfect world but the Muslims and their "charities" shouldn't be forcing people to give aid in one part of of the world, one miniscule area of the world when the west are trying to pump money all over the world.

Gaza needs to realise they have no higher sense of entitlement over others.

I dont think you quite understand, just like in the former Republic of Yugoslavia the UN and other relief organisations can only take in what aid has been agreed with the sovereign state. In this case Israel doesnt allow most of the aid the UN wants to take in, so it piles up.

The people of Gaza need the aid in order to survive if Israel lifted the blockade, which is total, the industry and agriculture could be resumed and the Palestinians could trade with neighbours, like they initially started when Israel allowed them the strip.

However thats not Israels intent, since the Interim Agreement of the West Bank and Gaza (the Israeli-Palestinian Interim Agreement, Oslo 2) the Israelis have allowed their own settlers to move in and displace the Palestinians from the area ceded to them.

They dont want the Palestinians there and have attempted to push them out of the areas, the Palestinians have pushed back. To go in with the army and force them to move would create more trouble and loss of lives than the current slow starvation.

If Israel actually lifted the blockade and allowed all aid in except what the UN deem to be unacceptable,(which would include all weapons ammunition or components of and production of) that would go a long way to gaining back a lot of respect in the worlds eye. However the other side of that sword is it would look to both the Israeli people and the Palestinians that Hamas had forced them to back down.

There will be another attempt to break the blockade some time in the very near future, like the next couple of days and it will probably fail lets hope not as spectacularly as the last attempt.

[MassiveTruck]

Originally Posted by Shasown

I dont think you quite understand, just like in the former Republic of Yugoslavia the UN and other relief organisations can only take in what aid has been agreed with the sovereign state. In this case Israel doesnt allow most of the aid the UN wants to take in, so it piles up.

The people of Gaza need the aid in order to survive if Israel lifted the blockade, which is total, the industry and agriculture could be resumed and the Palestinians could trade with neighbours, like they initially started when Israel allowed them the strip.

However thats not Israels intent, since the Interim Agreement of the West Bank and Gaza (the Israeli-Palestinian Interim Agreement, Oslo 2) the Israelis have allowed their own settlers to move in and displace the Palestinians from the area ceded to them.

They dont want the Palestinians there and have attempted to push them out of the areas, the Palestinians have pushed back. To go in with the army and force them to move would create more trouble and loss of lives than the current slow starvation.

If Israel actually lifted the blockade and allowed all aid in except what the UN deem to be unacceptable,(which would include all weapons ammunition or components of and production of) that would go a long way to gaining back a lot of respect in the worlds eye. However the other side of that sword is it would look to both the Israeli people and the Palestinians that Hamas had forced them to back down.

There will be another attempt to break the blockade some time in the very near future, like the next couple of days and it will probably fail lets hope not as spectacularly as the last attempt.

Why do you feel there is something to understand? Gaza allow this upon themselves due to their hatred and attacks on Israel. India and many other countries get aid but you cannot build economies, you cannot give jobs, you cannot provide a life to people who don't want it. That is the long and short of it.

You feel that Israel has to be blamed for this. Israel is giving them a solution - they're just being spoilt and throwing hissy fits into death. They want death. I don't think the world realise, they'd rather die than allow Israel to offer them a democracy and life.

I am telling you over and over again, you cannot give people unlimited aid. You're thinking that we could cure all their ills. I'm sorry but I tried to explain the flaw in your logic but you're too blinkered in a garden of eden type mentality about Gaza when they are creating this trouble for themselves. There are only 1.5 million people in Gaza and they do this to themselves because the long and short of it is...

they hate jews.

Jews offer them economy but their hatred is far greater than that.

Accept the fact that aid doesn't build countries and you will very quickly realise that aid isn't the answer.

I really do laugh when people call them palestinians. That's a political term they gave to themselves. They are, in my eyes, nomads who lay claim to a land given to them by the governing Israeli body - if they can't accept a good thing then they should just die in my view. They're too littered in Religious dogma that they'd rather praise Allah and die than give their own children a life.

Their loss.

Also, understand, the world isn't built upon historical ownership. If you believe that, you're on the same playing field as white supremacists and the BNP. It's reverse right wing mentality cloaked in left wing delusion.

[ElProximo]

Originally Posted by Shasown

Aid may be going in but it is an insufficient amount, the UN states its about 25% of what is actually needed to sustain the Palestinian people. Thats why food etc is smuggled in from Egypt in tunnels.

I do agree that backing to Hamas should be stopped but a blockade that slowly starves an entire people is wrong. If you look back and understand why Hamas was voted into power you will see Israel were the root cause.

And this is the part where we start saying 'get real' and this just means being realistic.
Not trying to contrive statistics or make these annoying 'school debate tactic' types of arguments.

Just as bad is this pretentious, careful, orchestrated international political posturing where everyone must side-step and brace their language into prepared careful language.

Realistically we all know what is going on here. IF we simply want to get food, medicine and shelter to the non-militant working people in Palestine it could happen tomorrow if not for the militant 'hamas' and others who are most deliberately using the suffering and need to work a way to also smuggle terrorists and weapons into and onto Israel.
We know this.
Lets not all walk around pretending we don't know the obvious big picture and game here.

This is what really annoys me more than anything is where the whole world has to pretend this AID ship is a legitimate thing only to help the poor people in Palestine.
Of course its not. We know its obviously a 'ploy' that is ultimately aiming to kill Israelis.
This 'flotilla' is exactly for that purpose and so far its 'almost' working and while it did not quite get them to lift that 'embargo' it went a long way and did get a lot of sympathy at first.

Not all Arabs follow a nomadic way of life there was towns Villages and cities there before the Jewish people decided to take over it.

By being the first to settle the area do you mean the tribes of Israel under Moses etc? If so re read your bible, they fought battles against peoples back then to clear the area first.

Here again is another annoying thing we all have to play 'pretend games' and its this fake idea of Palestine and this idea of 'Palestinians'.

A quick study about fairly recent history and you can see that todays so-called 'Palestine' was not a nation, country, people, race or any such thing.
Even the name was describing a 'region'.
The Hebrides is not a country. There is not a nation of people called the 'Hebridians'.
Here we have the 'Cascadia region'. Its describing a mountain range. Its not a country. There is not a race or tribe called 'The Cascadians'.

But do you know who was called 'Palestinians'?
Jews!
Actually the region had nomadic Bedouins and it had a handful of other peoples here and there. I have no doubt some were arab muslims too,
and,
the odd Jews who were actually left over from centuries ago and were still wandering the former-Israel.
They used to be called 'Palestinians'.

But never mind that. The reality for us today is that nearly nobody calling themselves 'Palestinian' is from there.
They are Jordanians and from other Arab Muslim nations and moved there AS Jews did.
They were 'immigrant workers' who moved there to build Israel.

Again its just annoying we all have to sit around pretending like 'Palestinians' are a people and were 'there first'.
Nonsense.

Now it does happen that a generation or two later there are people who have no been born and raised in what we started calling 'Palestinian regions',
and,
in the same way there is now a new generation of Israelis who were born and raised in Israel.

But lets get off this nonsense of some 'Palestine nation' full of 'Palestinians' who were then 'taken over' by Jews.
No.
That does not mean they get discounted either but I will not go around pretending that Israel is 'occupying' some imaginary country.

[Shasown]

Yes the name Palestine is and was used to describe an area of the Middle East, I suppose you could also rant about the use or over use of the word American there being no country called America. Or you could push it and rant about the use of the word Europe.

Except of course There was a large area called The British Mandate of Palestine, which was broken in to two subdivides called Transjordan and Palestine.

If the area was totally nomadic could you look at the following map and explain why there are lots of little orange dots, which the key to the map explains are Palestinian towns and villages (note the use of the terms villages and towns not nomadic settlements):



The B Mof P was the name of the area that is now ocupied by Israel a little of present day Egypt, Syria and Jordan.

[bansheewails]

You know what, I think the middle east situation is abit like Northern Ireland. There is no answer except forgive and forget, and lets face it thats a really hard thing to do if your family has been directly effected. One mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist.

The point of history is to learn from our mistakes, sadly as we are human we just go on with the mistakes.

Talk with all sides is the only answer and look how long it took all the main parties in the north to get in the same room, never mind talk.

[MassiveTruck]

Originally Posted by Shasown

Yes the name Palestine is and was used to describe an area of the Middle East, I suppose you could also rant about the use or over use of the word American there being no country called America. Or you could push it and rant about the use of the word Europe.

Except of course There was a large area called The British Mandate of Palestine, which was broken in to two subdivides called Transjordan and Palestine.

If the area was totally nomadic could you look at the following map and explain why there are lots of little orange dots, which the key to the map explains are Palestinian towns and villages (note the use of the terms villages and towns not nomadic settlements):




The B Mof P was the name of the area that is now ocupied by Israel a little of present day Egypt, Syria and Jordan.

oooh Ooooh Oooh... they don't say nomadic settlements so that must be the case... because it's a WEBSITE. Bow down to the WEBSITE and the INTERNETS Gods.

Jesus Christ man... this is ridiculous.

OOOh... I know... I will post a pro-islamic image from a pro-socialist website in order to make my point clear.

What can you not get through your head about the way the world works? What?

Let me make it completely clear here.

Towns and villages do not make a country. Is that clear?

Economies, ownership, building and development, jobs, national borders, trade relations

Basically everything that makes an economy makes an economy. I have well provided you with a clear explanation that these arabs did ******* all over centuries over millenia other than fight each other after their command, destroy, convert and conquer failed because they were just radical extremists plundering across the middle east and they moved around, over and over again like nomads as different nations took over their lands. They weren't in one place for a long time and there was no national border.

What part of the fact where I have told you that no national border, no governing group - because all those little dots are not a state, they are not country - they are muslims killing muslims.

Muslims, killing muslims. Understand that.

When an Arab was sent to the UK to speak for arabs, the vast majority of Arabs didn't want him to speak for them. They would have had muslims killing muslims again like they have had for over a millenium.

If all you have is oooh, they had this mandate, ooh, they went to the US, ooh, they went to the UK, oooh and then that happened - then you will never in your life understand why Israel was created and why muslims are just going to kill each other until the end of time.

I have tried in vain to explain this to you but if you're going to dilly dally around thinking that these so called "Palestines" have ownership over that area because ooh, out of the blue, they were settled there then you are wrong. They were not Palestinians but seperate, diverse, aggressively hostile groups who were fighting against each other and it was this stability that caused the area to be such a troublesome part of the world to deal with during World War 1.

If you've understood the life of T.E. Lawrence then you'll realise muslims will never ever be happy with each other because they have an infinite number of doctrines preached, not from state to state but from village to village to town to town. These grand economists and political scientists know this and what's funny, the funding dynasties of the middle east from the Saudi Oil families to the government of Iran know this and exploit the middle east and the differnce is, the biggest difference is - you have been taught by the internet while people who control the world and know all this have been taught in the best Universities in the world.

You can go back to these ridiculous left wing socialist re-enactments of history but the truth is Israel is the best thing to happen in the middle east because if it hadn't then you'd still have people in the middle east ****ting in the deserts.

[MassiveTruck]

Originally Posted by bansheewails

You know what, I think the middle east situation is abit like Northern Ireland. There is no answer except forgive and forget, and lets face it thats a really hard thing to do if your family has been directly effected. One mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist.

The point of history is to learn from our mistakes, sadly as we are human we just go on with the mistakes.

Talk with all sides is the only answer and look how long it took all the main parties in the north to get in the same room, never mind talk.

The answer is democracy and the acceptance of liberal capitalist society but you won't find muslims accepting that because they've got Saudi funded Wahabbi preachers telling them not to.

[MassiveTruck]

Originally Posted by ElProximo

And this is the part where we start saying 'get real' and this just means being realistic.
Not trying to contrive statistics or make these annoying 'school debate tactic' types of arguments.

Just as bad is this pretentious, careful, orchestrated international political posturing where everyone must side-step and brace their language into prepared careful language.

Realistically we all know what is going on here. IF we simply want to get food, medicine and shelter to the non-militant working people in Palestine it could happen tomorrow if not for the militant 'hamas' and others who are most deliberately using the suffering and need to work a way to also smuggle terrorists and weapons into and onto Israel.
We know this.
Lets not all walk around pretending we don't know the obvious big picture and game here.

This is what really annoys me more than anything is where the whole world has to pretend this AID ship is a legitimate thing only to help the poor people in Palestine.
Of course its not. We know its obviously a 'ploy' that is ultimately aiming to kill Israelis.
This 'flotilla' is exactly for that purpose and so far its 'almost' working and while it did not quite get them to lift that 'embargo' it went a long way and did get a lot of sympathy at first.



Here again is another annoying thing we all have to play 'pretend games' and its this fake idea of Palestine and this idea of 'Palestinians'.

A quick study about fairly recent history and you can see that todays so-called 'Palestine' was not a nation, country, people, race or any such thing.
Even the name was describing a 'region'.
The Hebrides is not a country. There is not a nation of people called the 'Hebridians'.
Here we have the 'Cascadia region'. Its describing a mountain range. Its not a country. There is not a race or tribe called 'The Cascadians'.

But do you know who was called 'Palestinians'?
Jews!
Actually the region had nomadic Bedouins and it had a handful of other peoples here and there. I have no doubt some were arab muslims too,
and,
the odd Jews who were actually left over from centuries ago and were still wandering the former-Israel.
They used to be called 'Palestinians'.

But never mind that. The reality for us today is that nearly nobody calling themselves 'Palestinian' is from there.
They are Jordanians and from other Arab Muslim nations and moved there AS Jews did.
They were 'immigrant workers' who moved there to build Israel.

Again its just annoying we all have to sit around pretending like 'Palestinians' are a people and were 'there first'.
Nonsense.

Now it does happen that a generation or two later there are people who have no been born and raised in what we started calling 'Palestinian regions',
and,
in the same way there is now a new generation of Israelis who were born and raised in Israel.

But lets get off this nonsense of some 'Palestine nation' full of 'Palestinians' who were then 'taken over' by Jews.
No.
That does not mean they get discounted either but I will not go around pretending that Israel is 'occupying' some imaginary country.

Thank You.

[bansheewails]

Originally Posted by MassiveTruck

The answer is democracy and the acceptance of liberal capitalist society but you won't find muslims accepting that because they've got Saudi funded Wahabbi preachers telling them not to.

Not much different from Catholic Priests helping the IRA or the Orange Order shouting No Surrender! Religion and war go hand in hand, its a difficult one to solve.

Did you miss me Massive? Its great to be back!

[MassiveTruck]

Originally Posted by bansheewails

Not much different from Catholic Priests helping the IRA or the Orange Order shouting No Surrender! Religion and war go hand in hand, its a difficult one to solve.

Did you miss me Massive? Its great to be back!

I have been away too so I'm back for Big Brother.

War breeds trade. We all need someone to blame.

[ElProximo]

Originally Posted by Shasown

Yes the name Palestine is and was used to describe an area of the Middle East, I suppose you could also rant about the use or over use of the word American there being no country called America. Or you could push it and rant about the use of the word Europe.

Yes I will. That is a good enough example you just gave.

The Americas.
It would be something like French Canadians insisting they are the 'true Americans' and 'American People' and then demanding the USA stop occupying their land.
(I think they might have a BETTER argument than Palestinians!).

And again we get back to who is 'Palestinian'?
Well Jews lived there too and were called 'Palestinians'.
Since almost ALL the people in Gaza and West bank are from families OUTSIDE that map then they are actually outsiders and foreign people taking over the 'true Palestinians' land right?

here again we get back to the 'reality check' on this. Nearly every single Jew is a recent arrival.
Nearly every single muslim or 'palestinian' is a recent arrival.
If not themselves then their family back a few generations.

Except of course There was a large area called The British Mandate of Palestine, which was broken in to two subdivides called Transjordan and Palestine.

So Jordanians ought to be outraged or should Brits be outraged?

Again, this was a region and the people on there today calling themselves 'Palestinians' are not from there (meaning not from those cities and lands and from that time).

If the area was totally nomadic could you look at the following map and explain why there are lots of little orange dots, which the key to the map explains are Palestinian towns and villages (note the use of the terms villages and towns not nomadic settlements):

I think Truck explains this just perfectly but I'd once again remind you that the people we see today calling themselves 'Palestinians' are rarely anyone actually from those places,
and,
while you can find a few families here and there you can ALSO FIND JEWS who were called 'Palestinians' who were from that time and place,
but,
Nothing you see today is realistically anything to do with those handful of people who were from that time and region.

Yes, Israelis will also sometimes find a native jewish family who have been in Palestine for many centuries,
and,
the Jordanians and Arab Muslims will find a guy who's family has actually been in the 'Palestine region',
but,
by far and wide and for any realistic and meaningful understanding the vast majority are ALL immigrant families.
Israelis from Russia, Europe, USA, Africa.. basically Jew from everywhere,
and,
The ones now calling themselves 'Palestinians' from Jordan and (long list) of Arab Muslim (and other) countries who often came as Immigrant Workers helping build Israel.

That is the 'real story' today and I certainly do not hold that against 'Palestinians' either.
That is fine.
I don't think less of them for moving there to get jobs. Good for them,
but,
Im getting sick and tired of having to pretend they are like 'Natives' whos land is being 'Occupied',
and,
pretending we don't know this whole thing is being used by the mostly arab muslim world to eliminate Jews from the region.

[keithafc]

Originally Posted by bansheewails

Not much different from Catholic Priests helping the IRA or the Orange Order shouting No Surrender! Religion and war go hand in hand, its a difficult one to solve.

Did you miss me Massive? Its great to be back!

No Surrender has nothing to do with the OO as that is a religious set up for protestants to join if they want. Basically a culture but don't think for a second No Surrender has anything to do with religion or the OO please.

[LeatherTrumpet]

one lesson from this debacle will be

If you are going to hit a commando with an iron bar then expect to be shot dead

I think we can all learn something there

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

one lesson from this debacle will be

If you are going to hit a commando with an iron bar then expect to be shot dead

I think we can all learn something there

Nah I think the lesson is interfere with Israel's ethnic cleansing program at your peril.

[ElProximo]

Originally Posted by Shasown

Nah I think the lesson is interfere with Israel's ethnic cleansing program at your peril.

I think we are all, ultimately agreeing on this last idea.

'Samson Complex' comes to mind too.