[arista]

"She added that Britain needs to impose a points based system"

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

At the moment they are but then we don't have any border restrictions to EU migrants at the moment. On average, migrant workers will stay here between four and nine years and not just for the summer fruit picking season. Why would they bother if they have to jump through hoops to live and work here? Why not just go to France, Spain or Germany where there are no borders?

£9.00 an hour living wage.That is a fortune to a Pole.They all wanna come here.Filling out a few applications won't stop that.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Is that copy and pasted from somewhere? You can adjust the colours and font size, it just looks like your shouting things.

No - This is not copy and pasted but it is based on genuine facts from two or three sources.

The colours and font size are as I made them because I AM shouting.

I have never felt as passionate about any issue in my life as I do our membership of this corrupt, wasteful, inefficient shambles which is the so-called European Union, and I feel the NEED to shout to try to bring attention to the absolute folly of this country remaining in, and to perhaps persuade the 'undecided' members on here to do the sensible thing and vote 'OUT'. Though looking at the poll, I feel members are set in their ways and no amount of facts will persuade them to change their minds.

I will continue to post the truth and facts though regardless.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by wannashag

Southampton dole queue set for an increase.

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/1002...nd_close_ours/

Huge amounts of money in manilla envelopes must be changing hands under the proverbial counter to those Government and EU Ministers responsible for this appalling development, and if ever ANYONE questioned just why the Tories took us into the Common Market, and why Tory Poster Boy Blair and others have kept us in, and why Cameron and the ruling elite are now still trying to keep us in, when it has been a 42 year unmitigated disaster for this country, then they should follow your link, read the article and weep.

The whole crooked caboodle of them are fecking the working class of this country and laughing in our faces.

[Kizzy]

You don't need to shout at me, we all have passionate views there's no need to maximise your posts we have a good few months to weigh up the pros and cons.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

No - This is not copy and pasted but it is based on genuine facts from two or three sources.

The colours and font size are as I made them because I AM shouting.

I have never felt as passionate about any issue in my life as I do our membership of this corrupt, wasteful, inefficient shambles which is the so-called European Union, and I feel the NEED to shout to try to bring attention to the absolute folly of this country remaining in, and to perhaps persuade the 'undecided' members on here to do the sensible thing and vote 'OUT'. Though looking at the poll, I feel members are set in their ways and no amount of facts will persuade them to change their minds.

I will continue to post the truth and facts though regardless.

I totally admire and respect that view and in way share the passion except mine is for the other way and the need to stay in.

You can of course keep presenting only the bad things as to the EU and ignore any good there is too, and that is the right of all who wish to come out.

However that brings me to the point I keep making,even those who wish to stay in and whose minds are made up,admit there are wrongs and problems and bad things as to the EU.
We know for sure there are many good things too however.
Without even maybe having a great deal of info, I and feel sure they likely are aware of that and have accepted same.

What the out camp has to do is substantiate how improved and better the UK will be as to security,economically, socially and indeed as to all issues of measuring a Nations success.
Always just getting the negatives from the out camp,gives no lead or confidence as to what the UK will be like out of the EU.

We who want to stay in, know there are negatives,we know we want to see them changed too from within the EU not out of the EU.
What has to be proven as far as is possible is what the status and success and future of the UK will be really like and assured.
In the absence of any of those assurances and guarantees,people have no clue if they would be moving into an even greater list of negatives for the UK in the future if they vote to leave the EU.

In my work, if I was offered another position, I would have see the guarantees of success, future and conditions,if they were lacking then have no idea of the real guaranteed positives ad negatives,so despite any negatives in my present position, I would not risk my future by leaving the position I am now in to walk into one, I have no guarantees for as to the future.

I think the UK may be able to do well out of the EU but I don't know with any real confidence,I do know the UK has done well in the EU as even your graphs keep demonstrating time after time,so for me,with the guarantees there already is as to our future in the EU and the big lack of really any once we leave, that is why my passion is for the 'in' side.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

You don't need to shout at me, we all have passionate views there's no need to maximise your posts we have a good few months to weigh up the pros and cons.

No one is specifically shouting at YOU - and I will present my posts as I see fit thank you very much.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I totally admire and respect that view and in way share the passion except mine is for the other way and the need to stay in.

You can of course keep presenting only the bad things as to the EU and ignore any good there is too, and that is the right of all who wish to come out.

However that brings me to the point I keep making,even those who wish to stay in and whose minds are made up,admit there are wrongs and problems and bad things as to the EU.
We know for sure there are many good things too however.
Without even maybe having a great deal of info, I and feel sure they likely are aware of that and have accepted same.

What the out camp has to do is substantiate how improved and better the UK will be as to security,economically, socially and indeed as to all issues of measuring a Nations success.
Always just getting the negatives from the out camp,gives no lead or confidence as to what the UK will be like out of the EU.

We who want to stay in, know there are negatives,we know we want to see them changed too from within the EU not out of the EU.
What has to be proven as far as is possible is what the status and success and future of the UK will be really like and assured.
In the absence of any of those assurances and guarantees,people have no clue if they would be moving into an even greater list of negatives for the UK in the future if they vote to leave the EU.

In my work, if I was offered another position, I would have see the guarantees of success, future and conditions,if they were lacking then have no idea of the real guaranteed positives ad negatives,so despite any negatives in my present position, I would not risk my future by leaving the position I am now in to walk into one, I have no guarantees for as to the future.

I think the UK may be able to do well out of the EU but I don't know with any real confidence,I do know the UK has done well in the EU as even your graphs keep demonstrating time after time,so for me,with the guarantees there already is as to our future in the EU and the big lack of really any once we leave, that is why my passion is for the 'in' side.

I always respect you and your passion and integrity Joey - honestly I do - and I do also like you, because no matter what the subject is, and irrespective of the fact that we are sometimes (not ALWAYS) on opposite sides of a debate, YOU DO ALWAYS DEBATE and respond -- something which I try to do myself.

I WILL post just why the UK can not only survive outside of the EU, but how it will actually prosper. My work at the moment though, keeps getting in the way and taking up much of my time.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

No one is specifically shouting at YOU - and I will present my posts as I see fit thank you very much.

I am in the in camp you were addressing., fine do what you like not saying you can't it just seems counterproductive. Nobody likes being shouted at it's not debating either posting your views in giant red letters.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I think the UK may be able to do well out of the EU but I don't know with any real confidence,I do know the UK has done well in the EU as even your graphs keep demonstrating time after time,so for me,with the guarantees there already is as to our future in the EU and the big lack of really any once we leave, that is why my passion is for the 'in' side.

Realistically I believe the majority will think this way. I'd be amazed if we came out of the EU because its like jumping into the abyss wearing a blindfold.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Realistically I believe the majority will think this way. I'd be amazed if we came out of the EU because its like jumping into the abyss wearing a blindfold.

Would you mind explaining just what you mean by this? It is the easiest thing in the world to make claims such as this, but could you just list your reasons for making such a claim?

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I am in the in camp you were addressing., fine do what you like not saying you can't it just seems counterproductive. Nobody likes being shouted at it's not debating either posting your views in giant red letters.

I find it unsurprising that no one else on here objected to the large text size and colour of my post which you object to, and I really do not need your patronising advice on what constitutes a debate.

I think that any scrutiny of any thread - this included - will prove just WHO out of the two of us attempts the hardest to actually debate, and which one merely criticises or posts links or pastes copy.

[Northern Monkey]

Tbh even though i am a firm outer i think DR is right about what the end result will be.Not because i agree with jumping into the abyss part but because i believe people will fall for Camerons "leap in the dark" scare tactics.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I find it unsurprising that no one else on here objected to the large text size and colour of my post which you object to, and I really do not need your patronising advice on what constitutes a debate.

I think that any scrutiny of any thread - this included - will prove just WHO out of the two of us attempts the hardest to actually debate, and which one merely criticises or posts links or pastes copy.

I have never cared what others do or don't do. You brought up debating styles with Joey so I feel that it's justified to query yours.
This thread or indeed forum is not a competition for members to compare posts, you may feel your opinions should be seen above all others on the page, I don't.
Hence the criticism of your formatting not your view.

[arista]

[Revealed: The Brexit-backing
16-year-old grammar school girl
whose passionate demand for border controls
left the politicians on BBC Question Time
speechless... but she's too young to vote ]

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz41MnmKqXk


Bless her

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

Tbh even though i am a firm outer i think DR is right about what the end result will be.Not because i agree with jumping into the abyss part but because i believe people will fall for Camerons "leap in the dark" scare tactics.

I don't see it as a leap into the dark, and I am marginally in the stay in camp. We come across new economic challenges every year that are a leap in the dark whether we are in or out of europe. Life isn't predictable. Having lived through a period when we weren't in Europe already, I just think its scare mongering.

I've yet to hear a truly valid argument for or against since the campaign began a week ago

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I have never cared what others do or don't do. You brought up debating styles with Joey so I feel that it's justified to query yours.
This thread or indeed forum is not a competition for members to compare posts, you may feel your opinions should be seen above all others on the page, I don't.
Hence the criticism of your formatting not your view.

Why don't you just stop baiting me? I have suffered enough on here through your following my posts and making comments which have nothing to do with the subject matter in an attempt to bait me into responding so you can then get me into trouble.

I don't give a flying feck for what you feel 'justified' about, or your opinion about my legitimate use of font sizes or colours and you do not have to resort to implying that I am making this any type of competition to compare posts just because you have no valid answer to my rebuttal of your unwanted and unnecessary and irelevant comments.

You are the one who resorts to cheap shot imagery in your posts - such as posting images of the Virgin Mary as piss-taking baiting to members who are earnestly debating religious topics, and as for 'criticisms of' my 'formatting' - that is not your place, stick to discussing the subject at hand.

If you have anything remotely valid to post that is.

Our membership of the EU is - to me - the most serious issue facing the UK in our lifetime, and I make no apologies for doing everything I can to try to draw attention to the facts, get people who may otherwise be disinterested, interested, and for trying to make people think.

If you want to concern yourself with trivialities instead of debating then do so, but do not pick on me when I have done nothing to you.

LEAVE ME FECKING ALONE and concentrate PURELY on my contributions to the debates.

[kirklancaster]

The left must put Britain's EU withdrawal on the agenda - by Owen Jones

Progressives should be appalled by European Union’s ruination of Greece. It’s time to reclaim the Eurosceptic cause

‘An anti-EU campaign could help the left reconnect with working-class communities it lost touch with long ago.’

At first, only a few dipped their toes in the water; then others, hesitantly, followed their lead, all the time looking at each other for reassurance. As austerity-ravaged Greece was placed under what Yanis Varoufakis terms a “postmodern occupation”, its sovereignty overturned and compelled to implement more of the policies that have achieved nothing but economic ruin, Britain’s left is turning against the European Union, and fast.

“Everything good about the EU is in retreat; everything bad is on the rampage,” writes George Monbiot, explaining his about-turn. “All my life I’ve been pro-Europe,” says Caitlin Moran, “but seeing how Germany is treating Greece, I am finding it increasingly distasteful.” Nick Cohen believes the EU is being portrayed “with some truth, as a cruel, fanatical and stupid institution”. “How can the left support what is being done?” asks Suzanne Moore. “The European ‘Union’. Not in my name.” There are senior Labour figures in Westminster and Holyrood privately moving to an “out” position too.

Should the left leave the EU? | Owen Jones talks...
The list goes on, and it is growing. The more leftwing opponents of the EU come out, the more momentum will gather pace and gain critical mass. For those of us on the left who have always been critical of the EU, it has felt like a lonely crusade. But left support for withdrawal – “Lexit”, if you like – is not new. If anything, this new wave of left Euroscepticism represents a reawakening. Much of the left campaigned against entering the European Economic Community when Margaret Thatcher and the like campaigned for membership.

It was German and French banks who benefited from the bailouts, not the Greek economy.

It would threaten the ability of leftwing governments to implement policies, people like my parents thought, and would forbid the sort of industrial activism needed to protect domestic industries. But then Thatcherism happened, and an increasingly battered and demoralised left began to believe that the only hope of progressive legislation was via Brussels. The misery of the left was, in the 1980s, matched by the triumphalism of the free marketeers, who had transformed Britain beyond many of their wildest ambitions, and began to balk at the restraints put on their dreams by the European project.

The left’s pessimism about the possibility of implementing social reform at home without the help of the EU fused with a progressive vision of internationalism and unity, one that had emerged from the rubble of fascism and genocidal war. It is perhaps this feelgood halo that has been extinguished by a country the EU has driven into an economic collapse unseen since America’s great depression. It was German and French banks who recklessly lent to Greece that have benefited from bailouts, not the Greek economy. The destruction of Greece’s national sovereignty was achieved by economic strangulation, and treatment dealt out to Alexis Tsipras likened to “extensive mental waterboarding”. Slovakia’s deputy prime minister, Peter Kažimír, may have deleted his tweet calling this modern-day Versailles “the results of their ‘Greek Spring’”, but he is right: this was all about crushing a rebellion.

Ugly indeed. As the former European commission adviser Philippe Legrain puts it, “Germany is proving to be a calamitous hegemon,” overruling even France’s objections.

The euro suits Germany, of course, as a weak euro is good for its exports and prevents poorer EU countries getting a competitive edge. But look at how the EU has operated. It has driven elected governments – however unsavoury, like Silvio Berlusconi’s – from office. Ireland and Portugal were also blackmailed. The 2011 treaty effectively banned Keynesian economics in the eurozone.

Hostility to the EU is seen as the preserve of the hard right, and not the sort of thing progressives should entertain, but even outside the eurozone, our democracy is threatened. The Transatlantic Trade Investment Partnership (TTIP), typically negotiated by the EU in secret with corporate interests, threatens a race to the-bottom in environmental and other standards. Even more ominously, it would give large corporations the ability to sue elected governments to try to stop them introducing policies that supposedly hit their profit margins, whatever their democratic mandate. It would clear the way to not only expand the privatisation of our NHS, but make it irreversible too. Royal Mail may have been privatised by the Tories, but it was the EU that began the process by enforcing the liberalisation of the natural monopoly of postal services. Want to nationalise the railways? That means you have to not only overcome European commission rail directive 91/440/EEC, but potentially the proposed Fourth Railway Package too.

Other treaties and directives enforce free market policies based on privatisation and marketisation of our public services and utilities. David Cameron is now proposing a renegotiation that will strip away many of the remaining “good bits” of the EU, particularly opting out of employment protection rules. Yet he depends on the left to campaign for and support his new package, which will be to stay in an increasingly pro-corporate EU shorn of pro-worker trappings. Can we honestly endorse that?

Greece is the latest battleground in the financial elite’s war on democracy

Let’s just be honest about our fears. We fear that we will inadvertently line up with the xenophobes and the immigrant-bashing nationalists, and a “no” result will be seen as their vindication, unleashing a carnival of Ukippery. Hostility to the EU is seen as the preserve of the hard right, and not the sort of thing progressives should entertain. And that is why – if indeed much of the left decides on Lexit – it must run its own separate campaign and try and win ownership of the issue.

Such a campaign would focus on building a new Britain, one of workers’ rights, a genuine living wage, public ownership, industrial activism and tax justice. Such a populist campaign could help the left reconnect with working-class communities it lost touch with long ago. My fear otherwise is a repetition of the Scottish referendum: but this time, instead of the progressive SNP as the beneficiaries, with Ukip mopping up in working-class communities as big businesses issue chilling threats about the risks of voting the wrong way. Without a prominent Left Out campaign, Ukip could displace Labour right across northern England. That would be the real vindication of Ukippery.

British progressives and the European Union: should we stay or should we go?

No progressive can support EU membership after the Greek debacle

Lexit may be seen as a betrayal of solidarity with the left in the EU: Syriza and Podemos in Spain are trying to change the institution, after all, not leave it. Syriza’s experience illustrates just how forlorn that cause is. But in any case, the threat of Brexit would help them. Germany has little incentive to change tack: it benefits enormously from the current arrangements. If its behaviour is seen to be causing the break-up of the EU, it will strengthen the hand of those opposing the status quo. The case for Lexit grows ever stronger, and – at the very least – more of us need to start dipping our toes in the water.

EVEN OWEN JONES AND THE TRUE LEFT WING IN THE UK SAY; OUT. OUT.OUT. OUT. OUT. OUT.

[bitontheslide]

IN IN IN IN IN


think its going to get pretty tiresome if we start all these font parties

[Northern Monkey]

Good old Owen Jones.I always said he wa a good lad.

[kirklancaster]

STRIPPING AWAY THE EUROPHILE B.S. AND LIES #2

"ALMOST HALF OF ALL OUR EXPORTS GO TO EU BLOC COUNTRIES"

More dishonesty which even our Europhile Government and its various departments are complicit in. They would be though, wouldn't they, because they consist of the ultra wealthy landowning, property holding and corporate shareholding elite who are the REAL beneficiaries of our membership of the money-draining, inefficient and corrupt EU.

FALSE EXPORT FIGURES TO THE EU VIA THE 'ROTTERDAM EFFECT'.

When our export figures are compliled they are subject to a little known piece of EU friendly dishonesty called the 'ROTTERDAM EFFECT' which vastly inflates the real figures to make it appear that MORE products are being bought by EU Countries than they really are.

This little know blatant dishonesty has been implemented from day 1. and works like this:

No matter where in the world we export our products to, if the ships carrying that cargo docks in ROTTERDAM or ANTWERP - even for a few hours - then that export is falsely attributed as being "exported to the EU", even products which we export to non-EU countries.

This dishonest gerrymandering is referred to as ‘The Rotterdam Effect’ because of the importance of Rotterdam (and Antwerp) as a transit port.”

When pressed, the corrupt Europhile UK Government and other Europhiles will admit this occurs but will mitigate the effect or downplay the impact of this practice on the TRUE UK figures concerning exports to the EU.

Even the Office of National Statistics will admit to the 'Rotterdam Effect' being a reality, but will not own up to just how much this corrupt procedure 'distorts' our export figures to the EU in their favour, saying that "We have not got the figures".

Even the most blatant of Europhile 'Elitists' who have a vested financially lucrative interest (lining their OWN pockets) from our membership of the EU, admit that the 'OFFICIAL' quoted UK to EU exports figures of between "47 to 52% in recent years" are BELOW 40% when the Rotterdam Effect is discounted, but the REAL figure is more realistically BELOW 30%.

That means that THE HUGE MAJORITY OF UK PRODUCTS WHICH WE EXPORT ARE BEING BOUGHT BY NON-EU COUNTRIES.

STOP BEING CONNED BY THE SUPER RICH CORPORATIONS, LANDOWNERS AND WEALTHY ELITE

VOTE OUT. OUT. OUT. OUT. OUT. OUT.

[Kizzy]

Frances O’Grady, general secretary of the biggest UK trade union body the TUC, has warned that workers’ rights are being forgotten in the debate over whether the UK should stay in the EU.

“It is citizens who get votes, not businesses. There is a danger that this debate is becoming so dominated by the business voice that we’re forgetting about what matters to ordinary voters,

Who cares about business?... Business will take care of business always has always will.
Think about yourselves. Think of the 'big society' communities.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/bu...-a6897801.html

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by arista

[Revealed: The Brexit-backing
16-year-old grammar school girl
whose passionate demand for border controls
left the politicians on BBC Question Time
speechless... but she's too young to vote ]

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz41MnmKqXk


Bless her

And bless these who didn't make QT

A poll of schoolchildren has found overwhelming support for Britain to remain in the EU.

More than 1,000 children took part in the online poll, published by First News, the UK’s children’s newspaper, with 74% voting to stay in the EU.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfTC2o05OEw

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by wannashag

Wait until the get out in the real World, that figure will massively change.

This is exactly why children don't vote.

OK for the little coached adolescent to spout off on QT though? They must all get a say... or none. One sided debates are not democratic are they?

[smudgie]

I really dont care if a 16 year old wants In or Out.
I am just so pleased that at 16 they are interested in something so important to their future.
I love that the younger generation are more interested in politics than they were back in my youth.