[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

That is a fascinating post and I do find some of my Conservative friends feeling exactly as you say in the post above.

However at my end most of my Conservative friends feel this has now become the real test for Cameron.
Few believe he can stay on as PM if the vote is to leave but by the same token they think he will be stronger after an 'in' result.

In all honesty however, it will be hard for the Conservatives not to be at the very least the party with the most seats after the 2020 election.
Not because they deserve to be but because of pure and simple arithmetic.

Labour will not turn around the Scottish losses within 5 years only,there will not be any mighty surge to bring about a landslide win for anyone now,I think anyway.
Also,there are boundary changes to come in likely 2018, these will reduce the number of MPs to 600 from 650 and will favour the Conservatives more,in a further 20 seats.

Not the picture I like to think of at all but while I see massive problems for the Conservatives due to this EU issue,they will not be tearing themselves to pieces once an election looms.
So even with the wrangling, the best result for anti Conservatives I can see at this moment in time for 2020,is that they get no overall majority again and then are forced to be far more accountable with totally heartless and unjust policy making thrown out.
Which is why I really believe they will be extra careful now as to who they elect as leader after Cameron with possibly all the leading favourites at present being rejected in the end.

What you say makes a lot of sense. For a real split there has to be the right mechanisms in place and like you say, who will fill that vacuum? I do think this establishment crisis will bring about some fairly major political change.... Interesting times Joey.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Alf

Why is it xenophobic to fight for the freedom of your country?

I'd say that the people that want to break up these countries and destroy the national identity of people, to form one almighty powerful union are far more xenophobic.

I'm talking about the BNP and all those who think along the same lines as the BNP. If we leave the EU through the triumph of right wing nationalism, then we leave the EU based on a lie.

I don't care about xenophobics, I just think they are mostly angry poor people with a mighty chip on their shoulders. I do care that they believe things are going to be so much better (immigration wise) if we leave the EU, because that's simply not true.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

I'm talking about the BNP and all those who think along the same lines as the BNP. If we leave the EU through the triumph of right wing nationalism, then we leave the EU based on a lie.

I don't care about xenophobics, I just think they are mostly angry poor people with a mighty chip on their shoulders. I do care that they believe things are going to be so much better (immigration wise) if we leave the EU, because that's simply not true.

But you have to ask yourself, why are these far-right groups coming about?, and where did these people in them come from?

Most I'd assume come from the centre or centre-right, and have seen society's have a massive tilt to the left, and not a good left, it's a left that constantly attacks our freedoms and our identity's.

We're made to feel ashamed of who we are and where we're from. which is something you'd expect in a far-right society.

We should be proud of who we are and where we come from. What Britain has done for this World is incomparable, alright it's had it's bad bits, but what country hasn't?

You or I don't owe anybody anything.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Alf

But you have to ask yourself, why are these far-right groups coming about?, and where did these people in them come from?

Most I'd assume come from the centre or centre-right, and have seen society's have a massive tilt to the left, and not good left, it's a left that constantly attacks our freedoms and our identity's.

We're made to feel ashamed of who we are and where we're from. which is something you'd expect in a far-right society.

We should be proud of who we are and where we come from. What Britain has done for this World is incomparable, alright it's had it's bad bits, but what country hasn't?

You or I don't owe anybody anything.

I've just edited and scrapped most of this post because it wasn't relevant to topic and it was just me getting a bit carried away.

I couldn't tell you why there has been a rise of nationalist thinkers but I would take a guess that most of those who call themselves nationalists, or who enjoy some of the benefits of nationalism, have just been sucked into right wing propaganda, a propaganda that points its grubby finger at the left and has people believe its those bloody immigrants that are responsible for their low wages, lack of affordable housing or unemployment.

The more the neoliberals suppress the poor, the bigger the rise in this type of nationalism.

[Kizzy]

'The more the neoliberals suppress the poor, the bigger the rise in nationalism.'
Yes it's funny that, how does that work?
The demonisation of the poor resonated with some who subscribe to a national ethos but in a more sinister twist that has morphed into something even uglier, the outcasting too of those incapacitated or old.
A frightening development.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

'The more the neoliberals suppress the poor, the bigger the rise in nationalism.'
Yes it's funny that, how does that work?
The demonisation of the poor resonated with some who subscribe to a national ethos but in a more sinister twist that has morphed into something even uglier, the outcasting too of those incapacitated or old.
A frightening development.

Omg, don't get me started again

Its very confusing and conflicting. People who make a hard stance on immigration and want Britain to be reclaimed by the British are not or shouldn't consider themselves to be nationalists if they vote conservative because conservative nationalism doesn't represent those wishes. More interestingly, because our conservative parties have gradually morphed into 'neoliberal thinkers'; nationalist voters who vote for them, are voting for a party that completely clashes in every way with what any sort of nationalism stands for.

Hard left could be 'social nationalist'... far right 'fascist nationalist' (both totalitarian). So when you and I get accused of being 'hard left' they could be accusing us of wanting an ancestral race.

Anyway, that aside, goes and bangs my head on the wall!, my point is, a person who desires to reclaim Britain from immigrants and I don't mean people who just want to properly sort out illegal immigration in a diplomatic grown up way but the ones who would love to turn round to the Indian shopkeeper and tell him to feck off home, could be right wing or left wing. They could be as much aligned to the Labour party as the Conservative party.

[arista]

[Kizzy]

They're going to have to retract that.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

They're going to have to retract that.

Feck Me Kizzy
what about Prince William saying stay in EU
the other day.


And the Queen never comments on Press reports.


I think it Great the number 1 selling newspaper
has done this Front Page,


Fair Is Fair


Well done Piers GMBHD saying there is truth in it
after Clegg just spoke dodgy words

[DemolitionRed]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-35760912

EU referendum: Queen neutral, palace says after Sun claim

[arista]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-35760912

EU referendum: Queen neutral, palace says after Sun claim

Yes We know ( all with TV news or radio)

But she must say that in Public DR.



That BBC link is not Valid to me.,

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by arista

Yes We know ( all with TV news or radio)

But she must say that in Public DR.



That BBC link is not Valid to me.,

And the Sun is?

I was just updating the thread because not everyone will bother to go and look for themselves ....geez!!

[DemolitionRed]

Prince William didn't suggest we stay in the EU. All he said is, "Britain is a forward thinking country". That could mean anything.

[arista]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

And the Sun is?

I was just updating the thread because not everyone will bother to go and look for themselves ....geez!!

No GMBHD Live
is more Valid.

Also ITV1HD Lorraine


And of course you were correct to post the Official Response
Fair And Balanced

[arista]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Prince William didn't suggest we stay in the EU. All he said is, "Britain is a forward thinking country". That could mean anything.

It was more than that
and he is Pro EU.


But Our Queen is Get Out of the Gravy Train Mess Europe

[joeysteele]

The Sun printing utter nonsense again likely.
They should be made, if they in fact even have any, to reveal their source for this.
If they cannot reveal their source,or they are supposedly anonymous, the Sun should be made to make a massive retraction at the very least, all over its front pages and not on page 6 or 7 as they usually do.

Why anyone even looks at or buys this rag is beyond me,even sadder is that anyone takes anything they say seriously either.
It would be out of production for me and I give no thought either to its mostly misleading/lying editorial team and many of its staff too as to that.

[bitontheslide]

it seems the Sun is referring to conversations in the past where the Queen is alleged to have voiced a political opinion. The queen has been neutral on every political decision over her entire reign, including issues such as Scottish independence, which, with respect, are of much greater concern to the UK than if we choose to remain or leave the EU.

Also, if the queen did express an opinion, who cares. She is well past her relevance sell by date.

[joeysteele]

That front page printed ,even were it right without the permission and endorsement of the Monarch is a total disgrace in the UK.

It is also totally misleading,I have thought on things the EU was going the wrong way about things however I still do not support leaving it.
Even the conversation,if it ever took place, as stated does not indicate the Queen saying she supports leaving anyway.

This is a likely total fabrication from the Sun well known as to its lies and slanderous headlines as to the Hillsborough tragedy.
This should actually be a serious matter,that a publication,( wrongly described as a newspaper in my opinion), can get away with printing on a front page, something so totally unsubstantiated and rejected by all concerned.

The sooner this rotten mess of a joke as to a publication is gone the better.

[DemolitionRed]

This is a just a very sneaky banner campaign by Murdoch who's done more u-turns on the EU than a gridlock of cars in a traffic jam. He's presently sitting with Brexit, hence his poster page but he will likely change his mind sometime soon.

The thing about such a poster campaign is, regardless of its untruth, its still a massive advert for Brexit. The other papers need to counter that with posters of the Queen and headlines saying, "THE QUEEN HAS NOT SAID SHE WANTS BRITAIN TO LEAVE THE EU" because if they don't do that, then all those people who don't buy newspapers or watch the news, could remain misinformed.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

The thing about such a poster campaign is, regardless of its untruth, its still a massive advert for Brexit. The other papers need to counter that with posters of the Queen and headlines saying, "THE QUEEN HAS NOT SAID SHE WANTS BRITAIN TO LEAVE THE EU" because if they don't do that, then all those people who don't buy newspapers or watch the news, could remain misinformed.

What will happen, though, is that they will clarify this in a tiny 2 inch square article on page 7 next week.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

What will happen, though, is that they will clarify this in a tiny 2 inch square article on page 7 next week.

Exactly

[arista]

"That front page printed ,even were it right without the permission and endorsement of the Monarch is a total disgrace in the UK."


Sure Joey
but they have a solid source
and Prince William is Pro EU

So its a Good Balance Joey

[Kizzy]

'Buckingham Palace has complained to the Independent Press Standards Organisation (Ipso) about a report in the Sun newspaper which claimed that the Queen had voiced strong Eurosceptic views.

The front page story was based on an anonymous source's report of a lunch with Nick Clegg during his time as Deputy Prime Minister.

It claimed the monarch had vented her anger with Brussels at Mr Clegg, who is pro-EU, during their meeting at Windsor Castle in 2011.'

I'm guessing GCHQ

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/me...-a6921051.html

[Kizzy]

'Imagine a country in which there is:

– No statutory right to paid holiday

– No legal limit on the number of hours employees can be required to work

– No right to a daily rest period

– No laws to prevent employers discriminating against workers who are disabled or who have particular religious beliefs

– No right for employees to take time off work to look after a sick child.

This was the UK before the New Labour government was elected in 1997. Since then a substantial number of employment rights have been introduced – most of which have their roots in EU legislation.

Thanks to the EU, employers cannot treat part-time workers less favourably than full-time workers, working parents have a right to take leave to look after their children, and temporary agency workers and workers with fixed-term contracts are entitled to the same basic conditions as comparable workers with permanent contracts.'

Still want out?...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a6921126.html

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Still want out?...

No! you've changed my mind, it sounds like a life of luxury, I'll have a bit of that.