[Alf]

Say no to the Fourth Reich

Vote out

[arista]

In Pollls
More Trust Boris
than the PM.
Fact

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by arista

In Pollls
More Trust Boris
than the PM.
Fact

In polls, which I consider near irrelevant now, more trust Corbyn than either the PM or Boris Johnson as to the EU.
Also fact.Apparently the latest one has Corbyn 28%,B. Johnson 26% and the PM 21%.
Hardly an endorsement for any of them really.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by arista

In Pollls
More Trust Boris
than the PM.
Fact

Really? I find this hard to believe. More LIKING Boris I get...but he comes across a bit of a loveable clown tbh. I don't much like Cameron but I trust him a hell of a lot more than I would trust Boris

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Really? I find this hard to believe. More LIKING Boris I get...but he comes across a bit of a loveable clown tbh. I don't much like Cameron but I trust him a hell of a lot more than I would trust Boris

I would too trust Cameron more than Boris Johnson, the man who said he would not have 2 roles and see out his full term as Mayor of London before seeking possible election to Parliament again, then did the opposite.

Then also on the EU issue, held back from saying his position, right even until after the cabinet Ministers, Duncan-Smith,Grayling,Gove and Villiers had made their position public.
He held back to maximise publicity for himself in the media announcing it on a rather quiet day so he was 'the news'.

Totally false and I would not trust him an inch and certainly not with power.

[Alf]

"There must be a superior power which dominates all the other powers, with enough authority to force them to live in harmony with one another - and France is best placed for that purpose."

"We must have a European legal system, a European appeal court, a common currency, the same weights and measures and the same laws".

"I must make all the peoples of Europe one people...."


Napoleon Bonaparte





Hitler said more or less the same, now we're making their wish come true.

[Kizzy]

Yes harmony be damned, we are the empire, if we want something we'll just don our pith hats and jolly well take it!

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Yes harmony be damned, we are the empire, if we want something we'll just don our pith hats and jolly well take it!

I know your trying to be sarcastic, but you're more or less bang on right.

[arista]

A debate
on BBCNewsHD Newswatch
people are Angry at the BBC.
For not giving a good fair view on
on the E.U. debate

James Stevenson BBC News Editor
said one event will be at the Wembley Arena?

I hope thats the 2 hour debate for the Fecking BBC

[joeysteele]

I don't think any channel is doing a good balanced presentation so far.

Last night on Sky we had Boris claiming Ł350million a week would go to the NHS if out.
When challenged that figure was wrong and we did not pay Ł350million weekly to the EU, he said its the gross figure,thats fact.

You don't use gross figures until the deductions are off and you have the nett figure. so he would be promising all except the rebate to the NHS if out.
So what about the regional and other funds we get back from the EU which would stop if out.

If all the savings are going to the NHS what about the Farmers and those other funds,he has said it would go to the NHS,so all the others would lose out.

However he wasn't challenged as to that aid and funds back from the EU by the report' he was allowed to get away with saying simply, that's the gross figure, that's fact.
Let's hope then he is never in control of the UKs finances if he would risk operating on gross figures before all deductions and amendments ar taken into account..

Also, his getting at Obama as to the UK and the EU s getting really pathetic now, desperation almost.
Were Obama and the USA advocating the UK leaving the EU, he would be probably quoting that left, right and centre.

Really though, both sides have to be challenged as to claims they are making but that 'out' poster saying that if out, Ł350million a week would go to the NHS is a blatant lie and a bad misleading of the voters as to it too in my opinion.
The 'factual' real figure available to go anywhere is more like half that, around Ł175million.
Subject still of course to all costs,possible tariffs and other conditions that may eat up some of those funds left too.

So for me, we need people in the know interviewing and challenging both sides and not letting anyone off the hook as was so badly done with Boris Johnson's defence of that poster yesterday.
I doesn't bother me that he did that,I am pleased he id because it just shows to me, and I hope to others too, the bumbling mess he is and that he cannot be trusted on almost anything and that he will even find ways of defending a blatant lie.

He thinks saying things loud enough and arrogantly dismissing everyone else,is good statesmanship, not in my book and hopefully he shows the incompetent he is more and more in the remainder of this campaign.

[smudgie]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I don't think any channel is doing a good balanced presentation so far.

Last night on Sky we had Boris claiming Ł350million a week would go to the NHS if out.
When challenged that figure was wrong and we did not pay Ł350million weekly to the EU, he said its the gross figure,thats fact.

You don't use gross figures until the deductions are off and you have the nett figure. so he would be promising all except the rebate to the NHS if out.
So what about the regional and other funds we get back from the EU which would stop if out.

If all the savings are going to the NHS what about the Farmers and those other funds,he has said it would go to the NHS,so all the others would lose out.

However he wasn't challenged as to that aid and funds back from the EU by the report' he was allowed to get away with saying simply, that's the gross figure, that's fact.
Let's hope then he is never in control of the UKs finances if he would risk operating on gross figures before all deductions and amendments ar taken into account..

Also, his getting at Obama as to the UK and the EU s getting really pathetic now, desperation almost.
Were Obama and the USA advocating the UK leaving the EU, he would be probably quoting that left, right and centre.

Really though, both sides have to be challenged as to claims they are making but that 'out' poster saying that if out, Ł350million a week would go to the NHS is a blatant lie and a bad misleading of the voters as to it too in my opinion.
The 'factual' real figure available to go anywhere is more like half that, around Ł175million.
Subject still of course to all costs,possible tariffs and other conditions that may eat up some of those funds left too.

So for me, we need people in the know interviewing and challenging both sides and not letting anyone off the hook as was so badly done with Boris Johnson's defence of that poster yesterday.
I doesn't bother me that he did that,I am pleased he id because it just shows to me, and I hope to others too, the bumbling mess he is and that he cannot be trusted on almost anything and that he will even find ways of defending a blatant lie.

He thinks saying things loud enough and arrogantly dismissing everyone else,is good statesmanship, not in my book and hopefully he shows the incompetent he is more and more in the remainder of this campaign.

Yes, the silly beggar made a right show of himself.
Laura knows all the facts and figures and can run rings around him.
The daft thing is that he either knows the truth and thinks he can get away with his lies or worse still, he is totally clueless.
I must say it does make you think twice about voting for the out cause with him at the helm.

[arista]

"I don't think any channel is doing a good balanced presentation so far."

Yes Joey
I hope the Longer Debates, still to come,
are better

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Alf

I know your trying to be sarcastic, but you're more or less bang on right.

Yes well I'm afraid we don't have the clout we had for any colonial attitudes in this country, therefore any subjugation and subsequent barbarism is out of the question sadly.

[bitontheslide]

I have changed my position on this since i started. While I think having the friendship of EU states is important, its not the be all and end all. They won't stop talking to us when we are no longer in the club

The 2 key points for me are the contribution we pay if we remain, and the lack of say we will have in the EU if we choose to exit.

Trading terms will remain as is now, we won't change something that works. So, that aspect we can largely ignore.

Given there are only 3 states that provide a net positive contribution. Germany, France and us, we cannot fail to be better off and in control of where our money is spent. What Boris says about where the money is spent is 100% bollocks. It will be decided by the government of the time, not Boris

Given how hard we have to fight for things we believe are right, proper and fair in the EU, having a say on its future is worth nothing. As a net contributor, one would expect the contributors to have the biggest say in its future, not having to argue to protect the rights of your country which is the case presently. This will not change .... ever.

So, from a marginal stay in voter, i am now a marginal lets leave voter .... but there is still time left

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by smudgie

Yes, the silly beggar made a right show of himself.
Laura knows all the facts and figures and can run rings around him.
The daft thing is that he either knows the truth and thinks he can get away with his lies or worse still, he is totally clueless.
I must say it does make you think twice about voting for the out cause with him at the helm.

He did make a right show of himself.
Actually this campaign may be good to show the more pathetic side of him more to the public.
Obviously he has his followers but most I have talked to have said much the same as you above.

[Kizzy]

It's no different to what his interviews normally consist of, him booming 'poppycock!' or some other nonsense word in order to endear him as some bumbling eccentric toff.... worn just too thin now bojo sorry.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

It's no different to what his interviews normally consist of, him booming 'poppycock!' or some other nonsense word in order to endear him as some bumbling eccentric toff.... worn just too thin now bojo sorry.

I hate watching his interviews,he rarely gets really challenged and just wanders off bumbling other nonsense not really relevant to what he was actually asked.

His mayoral duties must be suffering now too, being also an MP and wandering around the Country now too campaigning for 'out'.

This is all about him 'using' this EU referendum to then be in place to see off Cameron and at least try to get a 2 or 3 years of being PM before the next election.
When hopefully his bumbling act will be more seen through and have worn really thin with the public overall.
Especially if a massive mess is made of things due to the endless uncertainties building of being out, 'if' that is the actual result.

[joeysteele]

I am really getting irritated with this campaign.
I volunteered to help campaigning for in but am fed up meeting so many people disillusioned, more uncertain than they were before,not bothered now in the slightest as all they are seeing is playground pathetic tit for tat.

Now today more figures thrown out at everyone,whether right, partly right or wrong,when will it be realised figures go over peoples heads, they have had so much selective sets of figures from both sides hammered at them, they are sick to the back teeth of figures and statistics.

Then the usual response from the other side of attacking these new figures while giving no substantiated info themselves as to being out of the EU.

Unbelievably, one of the things I am hearing more and more now as I try to talk to people about the EU is they don't know why we are having this referendum as no one will ever get concrete and true info from either side.
What an absolute mess of such an important issue.

I say again, all the in side needs to do is defend our time as a full member of the EU, as things are now and the success and security that as brought to the UK.
All the out side need to do is paint the true vision,if they have one,as to what out really looks like with what the gains and also losses will be that they can also fully substantiate.just as the in side can and should as to all the last decades of the UK being in the EU.

Is it so hard really just to be told the truth in a campaign, good and bad from both sides.
For goodness sake.
One the most massive important issues and decisions as to ours, the UK's and all future generations future is being turned into a pantomime farce by both major sides.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Don't know why we are having this referendum as no one will ever get concrete and true info from either side.

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Is it so hard really just to be told the truth in a campaign, good and bad from both sides.
For goodness sake.
One the most massive important issues and decisions as to ours, the UK's and all future generations future is being turned into a pantomime farce by both major sides.

Depressingly this is nothing new at all; I fear you're just describing democracy, the way democracy always has been, and the way it most likely always will be, across the entire globe.

Really it's a sham. The illusion of informed choice. All that really happens is that the person who tells the prettiest lies wins the vote and then what actually happens, doesn't resemble the promises at all.

Worse still it seems that British politicians are slowly realising that they barely need to cover it up... they can say whatever they want during a campaign, then simply forget about it afterwards and there are NO consequences. Numerous campaign pledges entirely ignored by the Tories and yet public opinion barely wavers. The entire Scottish referrendum in the end hinged upon the "last minute deal" setting out new powers for Scotland if there was a "No" vote. They never materialised, with zero consequences for those who promised them. IMO it should have rendered the results of the referrendum null and void and immediately triggered another vote; but no. Lie, cheat, do what you need to do to win the democratic vote, and then do whatever the **** you want. It's a joke.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Depressingly this is nothing new at all; I fear you're just describing democracy, the way democracy always has been, and the way it most likely always will be, across the entire globe.

Really it's a sham. The illusion of informed choice. All that really happens is that the person who tells the prettiest lies wins the vote and then what actually happens, doesn't resemble the promises at all.

Worse still it seems that British politicians are slowly realising that they barely need to cover it up... they can say whatever they want during a campaign, then simply forget about it afterwards and there are NO consequences. Numerous campaign pledges entirely ignored by the Tories and yet public opinion barely wavers. The entire Scottish referrendum in the end hinged upon the "last minute deal" setting out new powers for Scotland if there was a "No" vote. They never materialised, with zero consequences for those who promised them. IMO it should have rendered the results of the referrendum null and void and immediately triggered another vote; but no. Lie, cheat, do what you need to do to win the democratic vote, and then do whatever the **** you want. It's a joke.

Depressing is the word TS.

I will be voting in because,not listening to any of the politicians or official organisations.
I have heard not a scrap from the 'outs' as to anything solid, for me the only facts are that I know for certain for myself is what it has been like, and is like, with the UK being a full member of the EU with all the good, fair and bad points of same.

The only thing I feel is certain about 'out' is almost across the board uncertainty, in the absence of anything of real substantiation from any advocating out.

So I am not going to risk my future,the UK's and the generations to follow on uncertainties,hence my reason to stay put where we are with at least some certainties of success or better times ahead,unlike the picture of being 'out'.

So furious and disillusioned am I with both sides for the way they are treating the public like total fools on this massive and important issue.
I am stopping helping to campaign.
I rarely give up on anything but this campaign from all sides is shocking and I am really dismayed by it all and the silly statistics and scaremongering going around as to it too from both sides.

It is awful, just really awful and the vote for 16 and 17 year olds on this issue was rejected but I feel pretty sure we would be hearing far more sense from them on this and the future of the UK than what we are getting now.

[joeysteele]

I see Boris is showing how bad he is at Maths again today and not getting challenged on it by the BBC either.

The other day he was hailing a poster with the wrong figures on it as to Ł350million a week being saved if we left the EU.
ignoring the rebate and what we get back leaving more like Ł175million,if any of that is actually left after we may have to cover new costs and tariffs.

However,that amounts at Ł350million a week to around Ł18billion a year.
Now today on the interview he is saying we'd save Ł20billion a year leaving the EU, so he adds to suit himself another billion and a half at leas to the figures.
Unbelievably he was not challenged again.

It seems he, with no thought whatsoever, just plucks any numbers out of thin air.
Then again, why not I guess, if he is never going to be challenged and confronted on his wild misleading claims to the British public.

[Red Moon]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I see Boris is showing how bad he is at Maths again today and not getting challenged on it by the BBC either.

The other day he was hailing a poster with the wrong figures on it as to Ł350million a week being saved if we left the EU.
ignoring the rebate and what we get back leaving more like Ł175million,if any of that is actually left after we may have to cover new costs and tariffs.

However,that amounts at Ł350million a week to around Ł18billion a year.
Now today on the interview he is saying we'd save Ł20billion a year leaving the EU, so he adds to suit himself another billion and a half at leas to the figures.
Unbelievably he was not challenged again.

It seems he, with no thought whatsoever, just plucks any numbers out of thin air.
Then again, why not I guess, if he is never going to be challenged and confronted on his wild misleading claims to the British public.

Boris's lies really get to me. The Europhobes complain about the negative campaign by Europhiles and then base their campaign on lies and wild spending claims which don't add up.

[Kizzy]

I love your sig

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Red Moon

Boris's lies really get to me. The Europhobes complain about the negative campaign by Europhiles and then base their campaign on lies and wild spending claims which don't add up.

Its all driving me mad at present but Boris is really annoying.
How the outs can get away with dismissing all the in side says, then being at best inventive with their own figures they present,while never answering a single point as to all that will be required to do, how long it will take to do, and what costs and conditions will be put in place once out.

[MTVN]

Leave campaign's only response to the tidal wave of warnings from a vast array of senior figures and different analyses is: 'scaremongering'. The Treasury, the IMF, the Prime Minister, the Bank of England, the majority of businesses, President Obama, numerous other world leaders and politicians etc. all making very informed points on the risks of leaving the EU. There's only so much that can be dismissed as scaremongering.