[kirklancaster]

Some of the posts on this thread - absolutely hilarious.

Nightmare Dystopian futures painted with graphic and meticulous precision - Move over George Orwell, Aldous Huxley, Walter M Miller and Ray Bradbury et al.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Some of the posts on this thread - absolutely hilarious.

Nightmare Dystopian futures painted with graphic and meticulous precision - Move over George Orwell, Aldous Huxley, Walter M Miller and Ray Bradbury et al.

I dunno kirk, things right now are pretty bleak once you start to chip away the veneer. Hospitals are failing badly, education is possibly even worse. My daughter's primary school is one of only four in the entire county that didn't fail the last round of inspections miserably. Four primary schools, in the entire county. And really the only reason for that, is that it's a small school (140 or so pupils) in a high-average-income village, and there's a large amount of parent involvement and extra fundraising as a large number of the parents can afford it. Also a relatively large number of successful self employed business owners who can donate all sorts of things.

If we hadn't found this school nearby, and specifically moved to be in the catchment area for it, we would have been home educating. That's how bad things are in education now.

It feels like all sorts of essential foundations (health care, education, law enforcement) are currently crumbling badly... What does that look like in 20, 30 years?

[DemolitionRed]

What I wrote on my last post are the views of one respected modern day political theorist. Obviously to gain a balanced view we need to also read works from other economists and philosophers including conservative and liberal thinkers.

At this moment in time I'm reading (or trying to because its heavy going) 'the communist manifesto'. Reading it doesn't make me communist, just as reading 'The Works of Edmund Burke' doesn't make me conservative. it just means I enjoy political science.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Oh crikey yes!

David J. Blacker is a philosopher who sums up the ‘endgame’ of neo-liberalism

He believes that because we live in a nation that heavily relies on technology and less and less on human labor, we will move more and more away from ‘exploitation’ towards ‘elimination’ where the mass of humanity isn’t needed anymore.

The theorist Joan Roberts once said; “The only thing worse than being exploited by capitalism is not being exploited by capitalism”. I didn’t really understand those words until recently.

Blacker predicts the ‘endgame’ will include a massive assault on public education because as more and more schools are privatized for profit (academies), when those schools cease to make profits, which they inevitably will, state schools will eventually just close their doors; But that won’t matter because if educated people are no longer needed, there’s no longer a need to educate them. People can be trained in certain skills and just become workers of the state and education will become ‘natural selection’.
By reducing education to more and more butt holes (this is already happening in the US) we can streamline our workers and those workers become just a means to an end.

If the playing field doesn’t extrapolate from its present trends and if we don’t find an alternative blueprint/template for our future then ‘endgame’ will be societal collapse.

We are seeing the reduction of education I agree, academies don't require a full teaching degree for their teachers, nor do they have to follow the national curriculum. That's all that'll be available soon for those who can't pay for a decent education imo.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

What I wrote on my last post are the views of one respected modern day political theorist. Obviously to gain a balanced view we need to also read works from other economists and philosophers including conservative and liberal thinkers.

At this moment in time I'm reading (or trying to because its heavy going) 'the communist manifesto'. Reading it doesn't make me communist, just as reading 'The Works of Edmund Burke' doesn't make me conservative. it just means I enjoy political science.

I agree, and applaud you for your diverse reading - I have read the 'Manifesto' more than once AND I have my own copy of the Qran, and I'm neither Communist nor Muslim.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I dunno kirk, things right now are pretty bleak once you start to chip away the veneer. Hospitals are failing badly, education is possibly even worse. My daughter's primary school is one of only four in the entire county that didn't fail the last round of inspections miserably. Four primary schools, in the entire county. And really the only reason for that, is that it's a small school (140 or so pupils) in a high-average-income village, and there's a large amount of parent involvement and extra fundraising as a large number of the parents can afford it. Also a relatively large number of successful self employed business owners who can donate all sorts of things.

If we hadn't found this school nearby, and specifically moved to be in the catchment area for it, we would have been home educating. That's how bad things are in education now.

It feels like all sorts of essential foundations (health care, education, law enforcement) are currently crumbling badly... What does that look like in 20, 30 years?

Ah - I agree things ARE bad T.S. and WILL deteriorate further if nothing is done, but I was referring (rather tongue-in-cheek - and you know all about that concept ) to some of the terminology.

[Jack_]

A truly great man.

[James]

What system do we have in the UK now? I'd say it is more a mixed economy with public services and private. Chart that shows public spending across Europe - https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ur-PIB.svg.png "Ratio public expenditure on GDP by country in Europe... Legend : maroon > 55%, red 50-55%, orange 45-50%, yellow 40-45%, green 35-40%, blue 30-35%, purple < 30% (not presently used)."

Hardline socialism doesn't work too well, IMO, because people are quite materialistic and like to own things.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by James

What system do we have in the UK now? I'd say it is more a mixed economy with public services and private. Chart that shows public spending across Europe - https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ur-PIB.svg.png "Ratio public expenditure on GDP by country in Europe... Legend : maroon > 55%, red 50-55%, orange 45-50%, yellow 40-45%, green 35-40%, blue 30-35%, purple < 30% (not presently used)."

Hardline socialism doesn't work too well, IMO, because people are quite materialistic and like to own things.

People are quite greedy and like to get into lots of debt, because a serf with a millstone is nice and subdued.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Jack_

A truly great man.

They were ALL great -- Harpo, Chico, and Groucho too.

[lostalex]

Because the government usually screws things up more than the private sector. Competition breeds innovation.

[DemolitionRed]

Owen Jones once commented, "socialism is for the rich and capitalism is for everyone else"

When the big banks collapsed back in 2008 they became the biggest benefit recipient that Britain’s ever seen. It was us, the state that bailed them out.

Whilst the working man can apply for tax credits, its the wealthy bosses who are being subsidised for paying their workers low wages. That puts state benefit directly into the pocket of the profiteer and we, the tax payer pay for that.

It’s the same with landlords. Landlords can rocket their rentals on **** holes because the government will subsidise their tenants. Instead of building more social housing with fare rents, the government are happy to subsidise the landlords income. Its the working man in the street who pays for those over inflated rents with our taxes.

Our privatized public sector is probably the worst. A public sector that is state funded and practices the same socialist models whilst streaming government funds for profit. Whilst I’m happy to pay my taxes for a service I don’t get to use, I'm not happy that my taxes go into the pockets of those profiteers. I'm not happy that the top 1% of earners in this country have been allowed to cherry pick what part of the social system they wanted to own and that the majority of these corporate giants get away with paying little or no corporation tax.

The privatization of the Royal Mail http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2...stimates-value ensured that the state kept the pension liabilities – nationalizing the debt, privatizing the profit.

'Private profiteers benefit greatly from government handouts because welfare for large corporations and wealthy individuals is doled out like never before'.
Owen Jones

[DemolitionRed]

When these profiteering giants contracts end, I would like to see them being handed back to the state.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by James

Hardline socialism doesn't work too well, IMO, because people are quite materialistic and like to own things.

Socialism and full blown communism are not the same thing... Even hardline Socialism doesn't preclude property or possessions.

[MTVN]

No doubt that socialism gave birth to some great ideas and great institutions. There's also no doubt that capitalism has enabled huge advances in living standards across the world in the last 150 years. Not many today would argue for either completely unrestrained free market capitalism or for wholly state controlled socialism. Praising the Scandinavian countries just reinforces that point really because social democracy =/= socialism. It has been a success story there but then a bigger focus on free market capitalism has been a success story for a country like Switzerland.

Also put two socialists in a room and the chances are they will disagree. A Marxist would have a very different idea of socialism to someone like Francois Hollande or even Jeremy Corbyn.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by MTVN

No doubt that socialism gave birth to some great ideas and great institutions. There's also no doubt that capitalism has enabled huge advances in living standards across the world in the last 150 years. Not many today would argue for either completely unrestrained free market capitalism or for wholly state controlled socialism. Praising the Scandinavian countries just reinforces that point really because social democracy =/= socialism. It has been a success story there but then a bigger focus on free market capitalism has been a success story for a country like Switzerland.

Also put two socialists in a room and the chances are they will disagree. A Marxist would have a very different idea of socialism to someone like Francois Hollande or even Jeremy Corbyn.

I'm all for a free market economy because it gives free choice to millions of individuals; But a tragic mutation of Capitalism has fallen into the hands of our government and not just the ones who are presently sitting in Downing Street.

Capitalism is a wonderful thing providing we don't stray too far off the path of Keynesian definition. Its an ideal that allows financial freedom in a progressive society, it encourages competition. What it also encourages is self greed and because the human race are fundamentally selfish, if capitalism isn't harnessed greed will eventually undermine it and take over.

Britain now sits firmly with 'neoliberal capitalism' and Keynes must be turning in his grave. The British government, whether Conservative, former Labour or Lib Dem are now big business and that's not the style of capitalism I want to be a part of.

[Z]

I think socialism can only work in a relatively small country (like Norway) where you can focus on the development of the system rather than contending with 60-70 million peoples' worth of inequality and financial difficulties and gripes... it's much easier to micromanage a small population than it is with a large one, and I think socialism more than most concepts requires a lot of micromanagement... to make sure everyone's getting a fair deal and to keep checking in on them to make sure the system works.

[Northern Monkey]

Well i was enjoying reading and learning from this thread until it turned into a Youtube conspiracy video.