[DemolitionRed]

I totally get what you are saying Vicky. The sports thing is ridiculous. I doubt a male rugby team would want a female to male transgender on their team and if I was running a female rugby team, I would see the benefits of having a male to female transgender on my team!!

Trying to get a clear divide between transvestites and transgenders is a tricky one. In my view, a transgender is nothing like a transvestite or crossdresser. They may as well be a different species. I am all for protecting women but I'll add to that, I see transgender females as real women (I don't believe having ovaries and a womb is necessary to be a woman).

Transvestism has always had its place in society but it seems to be getting out of hand. I'm all for letting these 'ladies' have their fun but there's a line they shouldn't cross. They are clearly using transgenderism as an excuse to run amock and its going to be very difficult to stop them. The people this will affect the most is genuine transgender people.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

I totally get what you are saying Vicky. The sports thing is ridiculous. I doubt a male rugby team would want a female to male transgender on their team and if I was running a female rugby team, I would see the benefits of having a male to female transgender on my team!!

Trying to get a clear divide between transvestites and transgenders is a tricky one. In my view, a transgender is nothing like a transvestite or crossdresser. They may as well be a different species. I am all for protecting women but I'll add to that, I see transgender females as real women (I don't believe having ovaries and a womb is necessary to be a woman).

Transvestism has always had its place in society but it seems to be getting out of hand. I'm all for letting these 'ladies' have their fun but there's a line they shouldn't cross. They are clearly using transgenderism as an excuse to run amock and its going to be very difficult to stop them. The people this will affect the most is genuine transgender people.

See, I don't necessarily think it is. The current system of needing a diagnosis of sex dysphoria to legally change sex is surely fair and separates the chancers from the genuine? I don't understand why anyone thinks it would help anyone (besides a few pervs) to just be able to declare yourself the opposite sex and 'be' that tbh. But this is exactly whats being proposed.

Also apparently having the view that sex dysphoria is an essential part of being 'trans' (else..what are you 'transitioning' to?)...and that crossdressers and the likes are not the same as transgender people... makes you a terf too High five

Trans people who believe that dysphoria is clearly needed to be trans, are known as truscum and denounced by the transactivists too. Its all a little mental right now and so many don't even know its happening. As anyone who tries to explain this, is labelled transphobic. or threatened into silence. The amount of rape and death threats I had when talking about this stuff on other sites was ****ing ridiculous.

Yes, this behavior does negatively affect 'normal transsexual people'. As they tend to just want to live their own lives quietly, and they have these nutjobs shouting on about how male and female are exactly the same and how wearing a dress makes you actually a female and all that rubbish. If the law is changed, it will mainly negatively affect women and children. Then transsexuals. 'Cis' men are unlikely to be affected as on average, females are not a danger to males and oddly enough, you don't get many transmen who feel the need to force their way into male areas of life. And the entitled men who are fighting for this? get what they want and do not actually care about the people they claim to be fighting for.

Lesbians are already getting it left right and centre. Being told they are transphobic for being attracted to female people, rather than people with 'ladybrains' and penises

[DemolitionRed]

I can understand why lesbians are hot under the collar because trans will often declare they are lesbians, which of course, lets heterosexual females off the hook! but from what I've seen, its mainly transvestites who declare themselves as lesbians.

As for the transphobic thing, I believe there is quite a bit of transphobia going on but I also know that I wouldn't have wanted to date a female to male transgender and there are more female to male than male to female so why aren't us heterosexuals getting harassed? I think I can answer my own question. It the lipstick wearing, high heeled... walks like John Wayne, wig wearing, dance in front of the mirror trannies throwing their toys out of the pram and demanding their right to a real lesbian.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

I can understand why lesbians are hot under the collar because trans will often declare they are lesbians, which of course, lets heterosexual females off the hook! but from what I've seen, its mainly transvestites who declare themselves as lesbians.

As for the transphobic thing, I believe there is quite a bit of transphobia going on but I also know that I wouldn't have wanted to date a female to male transgender and there are more female to male than male to female so why aren't us heterosexuals getting harassed? I think I can answer my own question. It the lipstick wearing, high heeled... walks like John Wayne, wig wearing, dance in front of the mirror trannies throwing their toys out of the pram and demanding their right to a real lesbian.

Transmen are female so do not have the sense of entitlement to sex that a lot of males seem to have.
Transwomen will not harass men into sleeping with them as generally, the answer would be a swift 'get ****ed' and that would be the end of it. I cannot imagine shaming a male into sex would go well at all...

Along with what you said, about it being the transvestites that are causing issues, not actual transsexual people.

IMO the problems with this whole thing are BECAUSE transvestites and pervs are suddenly being classed as 'the same' as transsexual people. They are miles apart, and should remain that way. But people are too desperate to appear 'right on' that they are not thinking through the whole thing properly at all. I was one of those people until about a year ago too...what changed for me is discovering the 'cotton ceiling' and hearing from lesbian friends how they have been harassed, outcasted and assaulted for refusing dick. Basically. Everything went from there and now I am about as 'gender critical' as they come. Whilst still acknowledging that having sex dysphoria must be crippling and horrendous to live through. This does not mean though, that I think biological sex is irrelevant. Personally I would be happy with classing actual transsexuals are their chosen sex. But its separating transsexuals from the pisstakers thats the issue. And the pisstakers seem to outnumber 'genuine' cases by a lot at the moment. And thats before even getting started on the new 'craze' of 'transkids' who simply reject sex stereotypes and are then lead to believe that because they do not 'perform' gender correctly, that they are actually 'in the wrong body'

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Lesbians are already getting it left right and centre. Being told they are transphobic for being attracted to female people, rather than people with 'ladybrains' and penises

Have you heard of a youtuber called Riley Dennis? Riley's a transwoman who has made several videos going on about how it's "transphobic" to not date transpeople, that calling a trap "he" is tantamount to violence, and not wanting to date a bisexual is "biphobic" ... it's a migraine, even Riley's voice gives me a headache.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Have you heard of a youtuber called Riley Dennis? Riley's a transwoman who has made several videos going on about how it's "transphobic" to not date transpeople, that calling a trap "he" is tantamount to violence, and not wanting to date a bisexual is "biphobic" ... it's a migraine, even Riley's voice gives me a headache.

I have heard of Riley and think they are an utter dick. Riley 'lets lesbians off' if they have previously been raped as apparently thats an ok excuse to not want to suck ladydick, but suggests that these people who have been raped work through their issues as its only a 'good excuse' for a certain amount of time

Riley is disgusting.

Its also fine for people like Riley to want to date female lesbians rather than 'male lesbians' (which used to be a 'joke' but is now reality...). But not ok for lesbian females to only want other females. Its all just stupid and ridiculously homophobic tbh, along with rapey to boot

[Vicky.]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE-JoOQ9s7c

Same woman who I posted before. Taking on Rileys ridiculous views.

[Oliver_W]

I love Magdelen <3

[Vicky.]

Yes, she is amazing. Only discovered her a few months back and she speaks total sense. Gets a LOT of abuse though, for being a lesbian who is attracted to females (as lesbians are...) rather than 'male lesbians' and making no secret of it

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Transmen are female so do not have the sense of entitlement to sex that a lot of males seem to have.
Transwomen will not harass men into sleeping with them as generally, the answer would be a swift 'get ****ed' and that would be the end of it. I cannot imagine shaming a male into sex would go well at all...

Along with what you said, about it being the transvestites that are causing issues, not actual transsexual people.

IMO the problems with this whole thing are BECAUSE transvestites and pervs are suddenly being classed as 'the same' as transsexual people. They are miles apart, and should remain that way. But people are too desperate to appear 'right on' that they are not thinking through the whole thing properly at all. I was one of those people until about a year ago too...what changed for me is discovering the 'cotton ceiling' and hearing from lesbian friends how they have been harassed, outcasted and assaulted for refusing dick. Basically. Everything went from there and now I am about as 'gender critical' as they come. Whilst still acknowledging that having sex dysphoria must be crippling and horrendous to live through. This does not mean though, that I think biological sex is irrelevant. Personally I would be happy with classing actual transsexuals are their chosen sex. But its separating transsexuals from the pisstakers thats the issue. And the pisstakers seem to outnumber 'genuine' cases by a lot at the moment. And thats before even getting started on the new 'craze' of 'transkids' who simply reject sex stereotypes and are then lead to believe that because they do not 'perform' gender correctly, that they are actually 'in the wrong body'

The whole thing is a perfect example of PC gone mad. Self- identification will undoubtedly be abused, it’s just a case I suspect as to numbers and to what extent. Judging by the vile rhetoric of some It seems likely that any victims of such abuse will simply be written off as ‘collateral damage’ by some intent on putting more emphasis and more value on the rights of those that feel female and/ or those that like to dress female over and above the rights of those born female.

It seems to me that many of those dismissing the views of those born as female don’t actually value the feelings and rights of this important group which suggests to me they care little about females and more about taking on the system to prove a point. The rape of women/girls by men has always been a significant issue worldwide and apparently on the rise. It is definitely not an issue to be dismissed as purely the concerns of ‘radical feminists’. Anyone who thinks that is in my opinion a person of ‘concern’.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

The whole thing is a perfect example of PC gone mad. Self- identification will undoubtedly be abused, it’s just a case I suspect as to numbers and to what extent. Judging by the vile rhetoric of some It seems likely that any victims of such abuse will simply be written off as ‘collateral damage’ by some intent on putting more emphasis and more value on the rights of those that feel female and/ or those that like to dress female over and above the rights of those born female.

It seems to me that many of those dismissing the views of those born as female don’t actually value the feelings and rights of this important group which suggests to me they care little about females and more about taking on the system to prove a point. The rape of women/girls by men has always been a significant issue worldwide and apparently on the rise. It is definitely not an issue to be dismissed as purely the concerns of ‘radical feminists’. Anyone who thinks that is in my opinion a person of ‘concern’.

We have to be careful here. There was a time when gay men were thought of in the same light as pedophiles. To be gay was to potentially be a pedophile and we should, therefore, guard our children against them.

Some of these people want to prove a point and will happily run amock over the rights or concerns of others but this is the loud-mouthed vocal minority. The majority of male to female transgenders just quietly get on with their life. There is as much risk to transgender women as anyone else.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

We have to be careful here. There was a time when gay men were thought of in the same light as pedophiles. To be gay was to potentially be a pedophile and we should, therefore, guard our children against them.

Some of these people want to prove a point and will happily run amock over the rights or concerns of others but this is the loud-mouthed vocal minority. The majority of male to female transgenders just quietly get on with their life. There is as much risk to transgender women as anyone else.

I don't think it is. I think 'genuine transsexuals' are the minority now. And I think that there should not be any laws changed to protect these mouthy bastards. As the changes in laws will be detrimental to transsexual people, along with women and kids. And some men too though I can't see too many transmen taking advantage as most of them dont want to access male areas/sports/whatever in the first place as there is no advantage for them to do so...unlike 'transwomen' v females.

Even if if IS the vocal minority, it is this vocal minority who are currently getting laws changed. It is this minority who are advising the government and schools on how to handle the issue.

People need to know whats going on, whats actually being pushed for and how blindly accepting it will be detrimental to most people besides some pervs/misogynists/narcissists. And if I will keep being called a terf and transphobic in the meantime, well I can deal with that. its water off a ducks back now tbh as, as I said, even believing biology is relevant in certain areas of life makes you a 'terf'. FFS they even call transsexual people who are gender critical terfs too

[Oliver_W]

I don't know if any of you know of/like Blaire White, but she's a right-leaning trans youtuber, who said something like "I kind of wish we were back in the days when people didn't know what transpeople were, when we'd just use our bathrooms and in a majority of cases, no-one would think anything of it."
Such an attitude is much less harmful than the screeching idiots trying to get laws changed all over the place.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

The whole thing is a perfect example of PC gone mad. Self- identification will undoubtedly be abused, it’s just a case I suspect as to numbers and to what extent. Judging by the vile rhetoric of some It seems likely that any victims of such abuse will simply be written off as ‘collateral damage’ by some intent on putting more emphasis and more value on the rights of those that feel female and/ or those that like to dress female over and above the rights of those born female.

It seems to me that many of those dismissing the views of those born as female don’t actually value the feelings and rights of this important group which suggests to me they care little about females and more about taking on the system to prove a point. The rape of women/girls by men has always been a significant issue worldwide and apparently on the rise. It is definitely not an issue to be dismissed as purely the concerns of ‘radical feminists’. Anyone who thinks that is in my opinion a person of ‘concern’.

Not often I agree with you on the 'PC gone mad' thing but this is actually a case of that I think. Or kind of...its more people being so desperate to be seen as accepting that they do not think about what they are actually fighting for. People see this as no different to gay people fighting for rights...but its very different. gay people were not asking for rights to be taken away from others, in the way that this fight is. I actually do not believe why T is tagged onto LGB, as they are nothing alike. If anything the trans-agenda is actually inherently homophobic and a lot of gay people are waking up to this now (lesbians have been awake for some time generally, as they have suffered the most through it all).

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

I don't know if any of you know of/like Blaire White, but she's a right-leaning trans youtuber, who said something like "I kind of wish we were back in the days when people didn't know what transpeople were, when we'd just use our bathrooms and in a majority of cases, no-one would think anything of it."
Such an attitude is much less harmful than the screeching idiots trying to get laws changed all over the place.

Yes, this is a common view among 'genuine transsexuals' actually. I know 3 transwomen and every one of them thinks this. They reckon the activists being awkward (and often violent) ***** are doing much more harm than good and are only out for themselves (often, transactivists are just like any other guy...but expect to be 'treat' as women anyway). However these transsexuals would be known as 'truscum' in the community now. As they are actual people with dysphoria. Which is a bad thing these days apparently. One should be happy waving their 'female penis' at lesbians and demanding to be let into womens changing rooms rather than trying to live their lives quietly and happily

[Vicky.]

Another 2 females have been physically attacked by males at the Anarchist Book Fair yesterday

Seems another male defended them, and of course twitter is up in arms about the 'bald man' attacking 'women'(defending females against males...)

The females were handing out leaflets to inform people what the changes to the law will actually mean for people. So basically, they were attacked for telling people the truth.

https://twitter.com/anokbookfair/sta...28994937495554
https://twitter.com/olivia4hersham/s...18411290828800

More info on there, plus the leaflets they were giving out^

------

https://sages.org.uk/publications/sages-factsheet.html

Website factsheet also, which is worth a read. Seems transactivists don't want people knowing whats actually going on. What a shock. Why, because most people would disagree with it if they knew whats actually being fought for?

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Another 2 females have been physically attacked by males at the Anarchist Book Fair yesterday

Seems another male defended them, and of course twitter is up in arms about the 'bald man' attacking 'women'(defending females against males...)

The females were handing out leaflets to inform people what the changes to the law will actually mean for people. So basically, they were attacked for telling people the truth.

Got to be honest Vicky, at this point you're starting to sound like a bit of an extremist? Like... other than the exact details of the people involved, you sound EXACTLY like TheTruth . I surely can't be the only one seeing the irony in this...

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Got to be honest Vicky, at this point you're starting to sound like a bit of an extremist? Like... other than the exact details of the people involved, you sound EXACTLY like TheTruth . I surely can't be the only one seeing the irony in this...

By pointing out that females keep being attacked by males? And that this law is ill thought out? OK

I know some lefties don't like people arguing against this...but meh. I can deal with that too. Am a leftie in all other respects I think. I just do not believe males should be in female spaces* (or vice versa) which is exactly what this law would allow...and even before the law we have rapists in female prisons, so it would only get worse

*exceptions for those who have undergone reassignment surgery though

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

By pointing out that females keep being attacked by males? And that this law is ill thought out? OK

The laser-focus on the selective use of adjectives in an obviously pointed and agenda-driven manner. "These MALES, these FEMALES, this OTHER MALE. MALES this, MALES that, look at what these MALE THINGS are doing".

It's just the exact flipside of The Truth's rhetoric about women and completely disregards and eschews individualism .

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The laser-focus on the selective use of adjectives in an obviously pointed and agenda-driven manner. "These MALES, these FEMALES, this OTHER MALE. MALES this, MALES that, look at what these MALE THINGS are doing".

It's just the exact flipside of The Truth's rhetoric about women and completely disregards and eschews individualism .

I have to use males and females though. As 'woman' and 'man' seem to have different meanings these days. Especially on threads about trans stuff...

[Vicky.]

I also do think the focus should be on the fact that its males attacking females tbh (in this instance). Trying to shut them up when they have valid concerns. Its kind of...just the norm. But dressed up as people 'defending' themselves against 'hate speech'. Because violence against people speaking is absolutely the answer...and these very same males are the ones who will be able to go into any female area if this law is passed.

Don't worry, I also have concerns about transmen going into mens changing rooms and such, though my concerns about that are more a privacy thing than a safety one. I just don't believe it will happen...especially not as often as these violent males will force themselves into female areas.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I have to use males and females though. As 'woman' and 'man' seem to have different meanings these days. Especially on threads about trans stuff...

This is exactly my point, though, it's pointed and promotes division and tribalism which is the entire problem. It is specific individuals with a specific agenda, attacking other individuals. It has absolutely nothing to do with the vast majority of males, or females, and that's what makes the extreme focus on these specific descriptors a problem. Talk of "typical males", "men", "male violence", "male actions" and "patriarchy" is barely different (if different at all?) to Truth's bizarre ideas about "what women are like", "what women do to men".

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

This is exactly my point, though, it's pointed and promotes division and tribalism which is the entire problem. It is specific individuals with a specific agenda, attacking other individuals. It has absolutely nothing to do with the vast majority of males, or females, and that's what makes the extreme focus on these specific descriptors a problem. Talk of "typical males", "men", "male violence", "male actions" and "patriarchy" is barely different (if different at all?) to Truth's bizarre ideas about "what women are like", "what women do to men".

I don't believe I have ever mentioned patriarchy? I don't understand that argument fully so don't think I would ever use it

Also don't understand the objection to saying 'male violence'. Surely people are able to understand this refers to violent males rather than all males?! Or do I need a 'not all men' disclaimer?

Also I am not trying to blame this incident (and the 60 year old attacked) on all males. But it was males (who say they are female) doing the attacking, and females on the receiving end. Not sure what the issue is with pointing this out tbh. transactivists are mostly male. And misogynistic males at that. Also people who believe violence solves problems...and use violence to 'shut up' alternative views.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I don't believe I have ever mentioned patriarchy? I don't understand that argument fully so don't think I would ever use it

Also don't understand the objection to saying 'male violence'. Surely people are able to understand this refers to violent males rather than all males?! Or do I need a 'not all men' disclaimer?

Also I am not trying to blame this incident (and the 60 year old attacked) on all males. But it was males (who say they are female) doing the attacking, and females on the receiving end. Not sure what the issue is with pointing this out tbh. transactivists are mostly male. And misogynistic males at that. Also people who believe violence solves problems...and use violence to 'shut up' alternative views.

Because the problem, and so many of the west's social problems at the moment, has nothing to do with groups or grouping beyond the grouping itself. Like I said; it's tribalism, and the rhetoric around it relies heavily on the use of grouping terms.

"Transactivists attacked TERFS who are a branch of the tribe of Feminism, and they were stopped by some passing cismales"

When there are most likely only 5 or 6 people involved in the entire thing. It overinflates it and - most importantly - it plays right into that "tribal narrative".people seem to be utterly desperate to pigeonhole others - and themselves - into specific packages... and thus the cycle continues.

[Vicky.]

'Cis' is pigeonholing people too tbh.

I don't identify as 'cis' and I don't believe many others would if they knew what it actually meant. I dont conform to 'feminine' stereotypes. I don't have a 'gender identity' at all and think 'gender' is all bollocks and a social construct. Which makes me technically a-gender, or non-binary, which in turn puts me under the 'trans umbrella'...I actually think 90%+ of people would be under the umbrella if they knew what all the bull**** terms meant.

The only way 'non-binary' and such is 'special' is if it is assumed everyone else is 'cis'. When thats not the case at all.