[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Withano

Thats why they become trans, brain differences, not stereotypes?
And thats what gender is, brain differences, not stereotypes?

It has not been conclusively determined that gender is solely based on brain differences. That is your take on the discussions - not fact. The whole subject is still under discussion with, as yet , no conclusive outcome - so do us all a favour and stop trying to present your opinion as written in stone, undeniable fact. It isn’t.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I actually agree with part of your opinion on this but arrive at a different conclusion, I'm not sure I'm articulating my thoughts very well though Like, I agree with the first half of your post but my conclusion is that "male" and "female" traits shouldn't be linked to having a penis or a vagina and they don't feel like they are to me, if you get what I mean? Like I would consider myself to have a lot of "male" traits and was never very "girly" but I don't see things like that as what make me a woman, does that make sense? I'm not sure I'm explaining myself very well

I do know what you're saying! I think you're saying that your womanhood developed over time through the experiences that you had? (If no, ignore below)

I'd argue that if your brain had more 'masculine features' you wouldnt have grew up into a woman, if your brain was more masculine than feminine, you would sooner associate yourself with manhood.
I think the average transperson has a brain that did not correlate with their birthsex growing up, and as such, they grew up thinking and feeling like their desired sex despite not technically being that sex.
I'd argue that you feeling more in touch with your womanhood is directly linked to your more feminine brain, and me being more in touch with manhood is directly linked to my brain, and if we were born with the same brain but different sexes, we'd likely want to become transpeople.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

Thanks Niamh In all honesty I don't get it either, and I don't think anyone who doesn't experience gender dysphoria/gender identity can fully get it. I firmly believe that it exists and is a real thing because I think it has to be, trans people have always existed and in consistent numbers, and considering the lengths they go to I don't see how it can't exist. But I sort of think of it as being something where if you don't experience conflict with your own gender identity, then maybe your gender identity just isn't something that would be apparent to you. There has to be an explanation as to why transsexualism exists and that's the best I can think of anyway. There's so much we can't understand about how the brain works (and not just the brain but how different hormone levels during pregnancy can effect these things - I don't know a lot about that but I've heard there's some research about the effects of that), but we do know that people transition, so the question is, why? I don't think it can be down to gender roles because transsexualism exists in different cultures and different time periods where gender roles and societies are very different, which is why to me there must be an explanation for it rooted somewhere in biology.

And I have an awful lot of sympathy for anyone in that situation Jamie, I really do, it must be awful to feel that way and I'm not for second saying that I think they're making it all up, I just think it's unhelpful to try and label it in a way that's trying to build up stereotypes again

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Withano

Do you know the difference between gender and sex? Because any F/M trans of the same age as you, also going through their transistion tomorrow would not have that same wealth of experience as a woman. They likely never saw themselves as a woman, and likely never lived their life as one. Their gender was never female and yours was - that parallel you tried to draw doesn't exist really.

I think this is the issue personally. People thinking you're only a different person after the operation. Its not the case. It was daft when Hegerty implied it, its still daft now.

The issue was in relation to the perception of how other men reacted to women when he was seen as male too....that's how I understood it.
Should she be in a male environment she may already identify as female whilst looking male, however other males would still react to her as male.

In many ways she would be better placed to comment on patriarchy being in a sense an incognito female.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Withano

I do know what you're saying! I think you're saying that your womanhood developed over time through the experiences that you had? (If no, ignore below)

I'd argue that if your brain had more 'masculine features' you wouldnt have grew up into a woman, if your brain was more masculine than feminine, you would sooner associate yourself with manhood.
I think the average transperson has a brain that did not correlate with their birthsex growing up, and as such, they grew up thinking and feeling like their desired sex despite not technically being that sex.
I'd argue that you feeling more in touch with your womanhood is directly linked to your more feminine brain, and me being more in touch with manhood is directly linked to my brain, and if we were born with the same brain but different sexes, we'd likely want to become transpeople.

Ok, I suppose there isn't very much more to say on it. I understand the point you're making but I don't agree with it

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

Thanks Niamh In all honesty I don't get it either, and I don't think anyone who doesn't experience gender dysphoria/gender identity can fully get it. I firmly believe that it exists and is a real thing because I think it has to be, trans people have always existed and in consistent numbers, and considering the lengths they go to I don't see how it can't exist. But I sort of think of it as being something where if you don't experience conflict with your own gender identity, then maybe your gender identity just isn't something that would be apparent to you. There has to be an explanation as to why transsexualism exists and that's the best I can think of anyway. There's so much we can't understand about how the brain works (and not just the brain but how different hormone levels during pregnancy can effect these things - I don't know a lot about that but I've heard there's some research about the effects of that), but we do know that people transition, so the question is, why? I don't think it can be down to gender roles because transsexualism exists in different cultures and different time periods where gender roles and societies are very different, which is why to me there must be an explanation for it rooted somewhere in biology.

...yeah and there always has to be a ‘first’ as well, Jamie...or a first recognised, which many have been made more aware of recently because of ‘The Danish Girl’...and Lili being the first surgical ‘transitioning’....but she felt before that, I guess fitted some ‘female strereotypes’....I think the progress is that tran people no longer have to look at surgery as being the only option to have recognition of their gender...which is why i’m pro self-identifying also...but then with self identification, it’s always the thing of being open to ‘abuse’ as well...so I do completely understand concerns there also...which is why it’s so important that these things can be discussed without ‘labelling’....

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Ok, I suppose there isn't very much more to say on it. I understand the point you're making but I don't agree with it

Last question, so you believe transpeople exist because of stereotypes, and nothing to do with their brains? Or you just think there must be some other explanation?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Withano

Last question, so you believe transpeople exist because of stereotypes, and nothing to do with their brains? Or you just think there must be some other explanation?

No I don't think transpeople exist because of stereotypes, honestly I think it's a type of dysphoria and I have an awful lot of sympathy for anyone who is transsexual.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

DR I think you're preaching to the converted somewhat here, I would say that 99% of the forum and for certain me personally am very sympathetic to M/F or F/M transitions.

I have to say though that as upsetting as it was the fact was they were once a different gender... and as such will have had experiences that they could draw on for comment in relation to that.
Which to my mind is more or less what happened here, they didn't die and get reborn they transitioned, the memory of socialisation, patriarchy and peer pressure is still all there to relate to isn't it?

Should I transition tomorrow I would still have a wealth of experience as a female to draw upon a a trans man.

Okay, so here's a scenario that happened to him. At the start of his transitioning period he did everything he could to look like a boy. His mum went along with him on his induction day at uni and he was clearly concerned that people would catch him out and laugh at him (he's very quiet and shy). He had to line up and register. When he got to the registration table the woman couldn't find his name (his name is the same as his birth name as it can be used for boys or girls). The woman suddenly proclaimed loudly, "Oh here it is, I have you down as a female" and continued "Oh right ok... your a male now!!". He was devastated.

Yes, its true, he was once a girl... he knows that but that doesn't mean he wants everyone in the room to know that. Informing a transgender that they were once female is a pointless and an inconsiderate action.

Nobody dies, nobody gets physically hurt but any act that causes anxiousness, upset and even depression should be avoided. Its called tact.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

No I don't think transpeople exist because of stereotypes, honestly I think it's a type of dysphoria and I have an awful lot of sympathy for anyone who is transsexual.

And (sorry) that their brains tend to develop in a way more stereotypically opposite-sex-way because of their dysphoria, instead of them being born with just a brain that would have always developed that way?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Okay, so here's a scenario that happened to him. At the start of his transitioning period he did everything he could to look like a boy. His mum went along with him on his induction day at uni and he was clearly concerned that people would catch him out and laugh at him (he's very quiet and shy). He had to line up and register. When he got to the registration table the woman couldn't find his name (his name is the same as his birth name as it can be used for boys or girls). The woman suddenly proclaimed loudly, "Oh here it is, I have you down as a female" and continued "Oh right ok... your a male now!!". He was devastated.

Yes, its true, he was once a girl... he knows that but that doesn't mean he wants everyone in the room to know that. Informing a transgender that they were once female is a pointless and an inconsiderate action.

Nobody dies, nobody gets physically hurt but any act that causes anxiousness, upset and even depression should be avoided. Its called tact.

In this instance everyone in the room did know, having spent some time as the opposite sex is not a dirty secret either.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Withano

And (sorry) that their brains tend to develop in a way more stereotypically opposite-sex-way because of their dysphoria, instead of them being born with just a brain that would have always developed that way?

So you agree that gender is a bunch of stereotypes now

But no I don't agree that their brain develops into a female brain or whatever, I feel that they're unhappy with themselves and want to change who they are

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

that word "cis" annoys me too.

I'm pretty sure the whole brain debate is inconclusive actually, you've just chosen to believe the studies that support your POV

I actually find being called cis offensive. It feels like people trying to label women in a way to validate trans women more. The difference is where I would be generally polite in calling a trans woman she, even when she looks like a man, I doubt any of her supporters would show me the same politeness in not using the word cis in relation to me and my gender.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

So you agree that gender is a bunch of stereotypes now

But no I don't agree that their brain develops into a female brain or whatever, I feel that they're unhappy with themselves and want to change who they are

I always agreed with that, the brain differences between most males and most females has created stereotypes.

Do you remember when Courtney from Celeb Big Brother would identify his gender a '4' on a scale from 0 'entirely female' to 6 'entirely male'. Don't you think its that a transmale would probably identify their gender as a 0 or 1 which makes them unhappy and want to change?
Like I don't think any 6s who are unhappy with themselves would change their sex?

[Withano]

Originally Posted by jaxie

I actually find being called cis offensive. It feels like people trying to label women in a way to validate trans women more. The difference is where I would be generally polite in calling a trans woman she, even when she looks like a man, I doubt any of her supporters would show me the same politeness in not using the word cis in relation to me and my gender.

Cis is a word given to men too? It just means your sex and your gender correlate. As a way to differentiate between you and a transwoman, or me and a transman.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Withano

I always agreed with that, the brain differences between most males and most females has created stereotypes.

Do you remember when Courtney from Celeb Big Brother would identify his gender a '4' on a scale from 0 'entirely female' to 7 'entirely male'. Don't you think its that a transmale would probably identify their gender as a 0 or 1 which makes them unhappy and want to change?
Like I don't think any 7s who are unhappy with themselves would change their sex?

Withano we're just back to having the same argument again now though, I already told you that I don't agree with the whole "male" female" stereotype making you male or female so I can't really answer that question. I loved Courtney/Shane but I didn't agree with his opinions on everything

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Withano

Cis is a word given to men too? It just means your sex and your gender correlate. As a way to differentiate between you and a transwoman, or me and a transman.

I think it's easy to forget that there are FtoM trans people aswell because we hear a lot less from them over MtoF, also the issues Vicky speaks about affect women more than men I think.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by jaxie

I actually find being called cis offensive. It feels like people trying to label women in a way to validate trans women more. The difference is where I would be generally polite in calling a trans woman she, even when she looks like a man, I doubt any of her supporters would show me the same politeness in not using the word cis in relation to me and my gender.

Cis literally means you identify as the sex you were born. Nothing offensive about it.

[Toy Soldier]

I have literally no time to go into this in much depth as I'm leaving for work in 10 mins and I'm not even dressed, but as a quick run-down ;

- I'm not just talking about this thread (this may be where some of the confusion is coming from).

- I'm not saying there isn't scope for discussion or scepticism or criticism on the topic, at all, and yes Vicky has done so in a well thought out way several times.

- she is also guilty of posting the (to paraphrase) comments that amount to "Just because a bloke cuts off his dick doesn't make him a woman!!". Again this is not an exact quote, just in the ball park.

- these are what I have a problem with because points being made with similar language would quite blatantly NOT be accepted if it was about a racial group, homosexuals, or pretty much any other group.

- my MAIN ISSUE is that it has to be either OK or not OK. My personal view is that I have ZERO doubt that these comments would be far more likely to be flagged if several moderators hadn't expressed clear support of those comments or the ideology behind them. In the past, I've never had any major concerns about mod impartiality on here but at this point, there are clear issues.

- Kizzy. I didn't quote ANYONE in my initial post about this. Feel free to check, guys. I quoted Kizzy AFTER Kizzy demanded to see an example, as it was the most recent example on the page. I'm sorry Kizzy but none of this is about you at all. I know that's hard to accept.



Anyway like I said, can't really go into a back and forth on this just now but (look forward to it, guys!) I'm off tomorrow so I'm going to mull the issue over and give it it's own thread. Just wanted to address some of the initial misunderstanding.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Withano we're just back to having the same argument again now though, I already told you that I don't agree with the whole "male" female" stereotype making you male or female so I can't really answer that question. I loved Courtney/Shane but I didn't agree with his opinions on everything

I'm not talking about stereotypes, I'm suggesting that Courtneys brain is midway between the typical man and the typical womans brain - nothing to do with stereotypes. He is non-binary like the majority of people.
I'm asking if you think that if a male that had a brain more feminine than Courtneys would be unhappy with themselves and want to change their sex, whereas a male who had a brain more masculine than Courtneys would be unhappy with themselves but not consider a sex change.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Withano

I'm not talking about stereotypes, I'm suggesting that Courtneys brain is midway between the typical man and the typical womans brain - nothing to do with stereotypes.
I'm asking if you think that if a male that had a brain more feminine than Courtneys would be unhappy with themselves and want to change their sex, whereas a male who had a brain more masculine than Courtneys would be unhappy with themselves but not consider a sex change.

Well you are talking about stereotypes though, you're asking me if someone had a brain with more stereotypically male or female qualities.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Well you are talking about stereotypes though, you're asking me if someone had a brain with more stereotypically male or female qualities.

What's that got to do with stereotypes?

I think a feminine brain goes far beyond thinking about shoes.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I have literally no time to go into this in much depth as I'm leaving for work in 10 mins and I'm not even dressed, but as a quick run-down ;

- I'm not just talking about this thread (this may be where some of the confusion is coming from).

- I'm not saying there isn't scope for discussion or scepticism or criticism on the topic, at all, and yes Vicky has done so in a well thought out way several times.

- she is also guilty of posting the (to paraphrase) comments that amount to "Just because a bloke cuts off his dick doesn't make him a woman!!". Again this is not an exact quote, just in the ball park.

- these are what I have a problem with because points being made with similar language would quite blatantly NOT be accepted if it was about a racial group, homosexuals, or pretty much any other group.

- my MAIN ISSUE is that it has to be either OK or not OK. My personal view is that I have ZERO doubt that these comments would be far more likely to be flagged if several moderators hadn't expressed clear support of those comments or the ideology behind them. In the past, I've never had any major concerns about mod impartiality on here but at this point, there are clear issues.

- Kizzy. I didn't quote ANYONE in my initial post about this. Feel free to check, guys. I quoted Kizzy AFTER Kizzy demanded to see an example, as it was the most recent example on the page. I'm sorry Kizzy but none of this is about you at all. I know that's hard to accept.



Anyway like I said, can't really go into a back and forth on this just now but (look forward to it, guys!) I'm off tomorrow so I'm going to mull the issue over and give it it's own thread. Just wanted to address some of the initial misunderstanding.

Tbh I think many would disagree with your comments about not having any concerns about mod impartiality on here - they just happen to come from the opposite side of the argument to you generally and have a very different experience. And I am not talking about either of the mods you mentioned. Perspective is very much related to experience.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Well you are talking about stereotypes though, you're asking me if someone had a brain with more stereotypically male or female qualities.

Right. I think you threw me off with not agreeing with the link you shared. The one which suggests that there are feminine features to a brain, and masculine features to a brain.

A penis-person with more feminine features to their brain, that is unhappy with themselves would consider a sex change
Whereas
A penis-person with more masculine features to their brain, that is unhappy with themselves would not consider a sex change

Ultimately thats the difference between a male and a transfemale, no?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

What's that got to do with stereotypes?

I think a feminine brain goes far beyond thinking about shoes.

I don't think it's very helpful to the discussion to just come in and make a sarcastic remark tbf Marsh. I'm happy to discuss it with you but please don't do that by trying to mock my posts