[Northern Monkey]

Criticising certain aspects of a religion or cultural practices or joking about them doesn’t equate to ‘Muslim hate’.

We are all free to do that in the west.

I’d doubt there are many people who ‘hate’ Muslims just because they’re Muslim or Arabs apart from racists.

We probably all interact with Muslims every day and we all get on just fine.That doesn’t mean we can’t criticise certain practices that don’t gel well with our culture or that we even have to like a certain religion.

Religious practices have been the butt of jokes forever.

Boris is a pretty clever fella and i’d be pretty certain he knew exactly the reaction these comments would get tbh.

[Denver]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

So the current rules are, politicians aren't allowed to be anti-semitic (or vaguely critical of Israel) but they ARE allowed to be anti-Muslim and say whatever they want, and that's fair game.

It's getting hard to keep up

I am sure the Burka is a culture thing not religious

[parmnion]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Anything that covers a person's face shouldn't be allowed to be worn in public, I don't think anyone takes issue with that part. It's the comparing them to criminals thing that's the problem. Suggesting that Muslims are dangerous just because of what they wear is problematic and fuels hatred against them.

I also take issue with people saying that basically muslim women are put upon and brainwashed into wearing Burkhas and the like. I think that's very patronising towards an entire subsection of women.

Really...in 2018....people shouldnt be allowed to wear anything that covers thier face in public...that sounds ridiculously silly and draconion to me

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by parmnion

Really...in 2018....people shouldnt be allowed to wear anything that covers thier face in public...that sounds ridiculously silly and draconion to me

Do you not see the issue with clothing covering people's faces in certain places?

[Denver]

Turkey use to ban them until the new president cam in

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Adam.

Turkey use to ban them until the new president cam in

He is taking Turkey back to the dark ages

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

Criticising certain aspects of a religion or cultural practices or joking about them doesn’t equate to ‘Muslim hate’.

We are all free to do that in the west.

I’d doubt there are many people who ‘hate’ Muslims just because they’re Muslim or Arabs apart from racists.

We probably all interact with Muslims every day and we all get on just fine.That doesn’t mean we can’t criticise certain practices that don’t gel well with our culture or that we even have to like a certain religion.

Religious practices have been the butt of jokes forever.

Boris is a pretty clever fella and i’d be pretty certain he knew exactly the reaction these comments would get tbh.

Exactly, the problem is you can't say anything negative even if there are negatives or the bigot/racist/fear of brown people (how does that work when every one is tanned after the summer) card is whipped out

[parmnion]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Do you not see the issue with clothing covering people's faces in certain places?

Oh certain places, sorry i could have sworn you said "in public"

[bitontheslide]

Boris Johnson is facing a possible investigation into breaches of the Conservative Party code of conduct.

The party's code of conduct states that Tory officials and elected representatives must "lead by example to encourage and foster respect and tolerance" and not "use their position to bully, abuse, victimise, harass or unlawfully discriminate against others".

Boris to get the boot?

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Boris Johnson is facing a possible investigation into breaches of the Conservative Party code of conduct.

The party's code of conduct states that Tory officials and elected representatives must "lead by example to encourage and foster respect and tolerance" and not "use their position to bully, abuse, victimise, harass or unlawfully discriminate against others".

Boris to get the boot?

He will probably join UKIP and lead them to victory in the next election

[arista]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Boris Johnson is facing a possible investigation into breaches of the Conservative Party code of conduct.

The party's code of conduct states that Tory officials and elected representatives must "lead by example to encourage and foster respect and tolerance" and not "use their position to bully, abuse, victimise, harass or unlawfully discriminate against others".

Boris to get the boot?

No he will be told off
and warned not to give out
Confidential Gov. Policy

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Boris Johnson is facing a possible investigation into breaches of the Conservative Party code of conduct.

The party's code of conduct states that Tory officials and elected representatives must "lead by example to encourage and foster respect and tolerance" and not "use their position to bully, abuse, victimise, harass or unlawfully discriminate against others".

Boris to get the boot?

Gosh, why are they making such a big mountain out of such a small molehill?

[arista]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Gosh, why are they making such a big mountain out of such a small molehill?

Sure
but he is still a local MP.
He is on holiday
not answering any questions.


All because of his letterbox / bank robbers comments.


Of course in the same monday newspaper
he said face coverings should not be banned in Denmark.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Gosh, why are they making such a big mountain out of such a small molehill?

They want him out the way for their Brexit betrayal.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Alf

They want him out the way for their Brexit betrayal.

Spot on.

The Tories are embarrassing themselves over this. And defending an extreme branch of Islam to boot.

[y.winter]

A good read - Muslim woman tells it like it is:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ke-no-favours/

I find it ridiculous seeing people defend burqas with a great passion because "Freedom of religion! Islamophobia!" yet forget that the garment they're fighting for is the epitome of misogyny. No religion and no culture are an excuse to this. One step closer to Gilead.

And speaking about Kippas - it's not the same. If anything, the great problem with Kippas is that the Orthodox and Haredi Jews try to prevent women from wearing it too, especially near the Western Wall. Isn't religious fun...

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by y.winter

A good read - Muslim woman tells it like it is:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ke-no-favours/

I find it ridiculous seeing people defend burqas with a great passion because "Freedom of religion! Islamophobia!" yet forget that the garment they're fighting for is the epitome of misogyny. No religion and no culture are an excuse to this. One step closer to Gilead.

Did you just .... did you just ignore the fact that making fun of a religion is literal racism? I can't even.

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Exactly, the problem is you can't say anything negative even if there are negatives or the bigot/racist/fear of brown people (how does that work when every one is tanned after the summer) card is whipped out

I think it's because there is a lot of fear-mongering around every corner of the media now. Doesn't matter which side it leans. It's all terribad. I think that downward spiral from journalism to celebrity news/tabloid level coverage, where we can draw grand conclusions on the basis of how someone "behaves" to over-examining someone's dress or "way" of speaking. I don't know that it is always intended to be a "shut down tactic" (though I can see that claim). It is a convenience way though to keep conversations from going a way that may displease those person(s)... and a simple way to ensure certain topics remain taboo and controversial I guess.

[parmnion]

Am i correct in saying women in iran were free from the burqa pre 1979?

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Adam.

I am sure the Burka is a culture thing not religious

It's not religious in the sense that it does not say that women's faces or hair should be covered in the quran. It is an extremist interpretation of a passage that speaks of modesty and both men and women dressing modestly. Like all religious books it was written by men in a time when women were generally the property of their fathers and husband's. Interestingly the passage also mentions men not wandering around uncovered between hips and thighs so perhaps there was a problem in those days with getting them to cover their danglies in public?

As radio host Majid Nawaz has said "It is the uniform of medieval patriarchal tyranny. It victim shames women for their beauty."

While senior British imam Taj Hargey from the Oxford Islamic Congregation said that Boris didn't go far enough and the burqa should be banned because it has no koranic legitimacy.

Defending it is condemning women to a life of isolation. And criticising it is obviously not a race issue.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Did you just .... did you just ignore the fact that making fun of a religion is literal racism? I can't even.

Confusing criticism of religion for racism is a common mistake people make. They are entirely different things. A person's belief is not defined by the colour of their skin or race and a religious institution should always be a subject open for discussion.

In the same way that people have the right and choice to follow those teachings, they also have the right and choice to deny and analyse them. That is what freedom is about.

I find it awful that women are subjected to these rituals and shamed into hiding themselves for fear some fantasy deity might otherwise reject them (which seems a bizarre claim when you think about it because he is also meant to have made them so why would he reject the beauty of his creation? It makes no sense at all.) However on the occasions I have met someone dressed like this I have always offered them a smile and made an attempt to strike up a conversation because I feel sympathy for their isolation. Same with anyone in a wheelchair who people often look above their heads or talk to the person with them as if they don't exist.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Confusing criticism of religion for racism is a common mistake people make. They are entirely different things. A person's belief is not defined by the colour of their skin or race and a religious institution should always be a subject open for discussion.

People probably find it hard because some of the prominent critics of islam are also racist, so it kind of gets conflated. But of course criticising the crappy aspects of islamic culture isn't racist.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by parmnion

Am i correct in saying women in iran were free from the burqa pre 1979?

Not sure on dates without looking it up but I do know that Iranian women once had the freedom to choose, as much as it can be a choice when you are taught/conditioned with specific beliefs, and no longer do as religious garments for women are now enforced in that country.

Go to Iran and get arrested for not wearing head coverings, go to Denmark and get arrested if you do. Go to the UK where a politician writes an article stating we should not ban wearing anything and everyone freaks out.

[Oliver_W]

Afghanistan was certainly more free in pre-80s, I'm not sure if Iran was the same. But either way,when more highly religious "governments" took control of those countries, it all went downhill for their rights and freedoms.

[y.winter]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Did you just .... did you just ignore the fact that making fun of a religion is literal racism? I can't even.

You missed the point of what I said (and of the article I linked to) - while Bojo's choice of word was somewhat childish it is not clear racism and not directed at Islam in general but addressing a very specific object in an extremist culture that excuses itself under the name of religion. This is not making fun as in "Hahaha Muslim are garbage" (clear tasteless racism), it does make fun of a terrible misogynistic primitive culture (and by culture I mean burkas and especially what they stand for), which deserves all the criticism in the world. Giving it legitimization will make it become a growing culture little by little, terrorizing girls from childhood into thinking that they are sexual objects that need to cover themselves from the moment they hit puberty. Young marriages, sex trafficking, it's all downhill from there. If you don't think your mother/sister/female friends and relative should be subjected into something derogatory as covering themselves in public from head to toe - then deep down you know that it's sick. When the Quran says that both women and men should be covered, exposing only essential body parts, and Muslim men in burqas are nowhere to be seen - it says a lot. Let's not forget that racism deals with gender as well, it's not religion-exclusive.

I find it absolutely horrific as I've found it with Jewish women wearing Frumka (or in Israels' most infamous case aka "Mother Taliban"). Israel's Jewish public didn't even think of justifying it, because this nothing but a radical stretch of the religion and has nothing to do with Judaism - and so should the Muslim people. Criticism in this case is more than welcome - it's a must.