[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

There have been dozens of answers. "I don't understand your answer" does not mean there was no answer, and people having given up on repeating those answers when the same questions are asked ad infinitum doesn't mean there hasn't been an attempt.

If you say so TS,but I have not seen one proper answer to several things brought up in some of these vids ,they are just brushed off as MJ supporters covering for him when not everyone is a fan, I am, as I have said .but Joey wasn't a particular fan,not sure Marsh was either It's not about who is right and wrong it is pointing out the inconsistances of those two in that mockumentary and no one really answers them, which smacks of people aren't really bothered about whether he did it or not,they just want to be right ,without being questioned.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I mean literally all of those questions have been discussed on this thread multiple times and that's sort of what I was talking about but hey Marsh says it's all good so by all means, post the same questions tomorrow.

Well, why wouldn't it be?

Do you police every thread on the forum for repetition? Not all members are online at the same time, so it happens.

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

That one is really interesting Goldheart,I don't know what it is about Dan Reed but didn't he say he only does subjects that "turn him on" surely that should raise flags, maybe he is trying to cover up his own naughty thoughts by deflection he certainly looks shifty to me, at best his body language looks uncomfortable.

This french debate is probably the best one i've seen when it comes to questioning Reed & the motives of Wade & Jame . They bring up all the important stuff and they grill him about his garbage film .

Everything about Reed is slimy and shifty , yeah what kind of statement is that to make about projects that "turn him on" regarding a graphic film about child abuse !! . Did he enjoy reading Guittierez' book , i can just imagine him sat with a glass of wine and a smirk on his face and dollar signs in his eyes when he read that book back to front ! .

He also describes himself as a "gun for hire" ,is that because he enjoy's destroying people's legacies without using facts or real information to back things up? . If his film was the "truth" and if this all was factual then the film WOULDN'T cut 45 mins out! , and the stories & dates would make sense without needing a time machine lol .

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Not Marsh trying and failing miserably to redefine his forum role

No response to what was said? Now who's posting unnecessarily.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

No response to what was said? Now who's posting unnecessarily.

What you said didn't warrant a response and no one is trying to police threads other than you, Marsh. What I was pointing out is that the idea of you suddenly lecturing people on what is and isn't unnecessary is utterly bizarre and given that it seems to be pretty much confined to this thread, I'm comfortable enough in putting it down to being agenda-driven.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

What you said didn't warrant a response and no one is trying to police threads other than you, Marsh. What I was pointing out is that the idea of you suddenly lecturing people on what is and isn't unnecessary is utterly bizarre and given that it seems to be pretty much confined to this thread, I'm comfortable enough in putting it down to being agenda-driven.

Didn't warrant a response, yet gave one anyway. Kind of sums it up.

Yes, I think you coming in and being personal with a bunch of people for daring to have a different opinion to you and daring to continue to discuss the ongoing story/interviews/developments in the thread (despite you apparently having grown bored of it) is unnecessary. Think what the hell you want about me, I don't care.

Now, I have an "agenda". Ok.
Whether Michael Jackson was or was not a pedophile, whether Wade and James are telling the truth or a pack of lies, whether they want justice or money makes ZERO difference to my life. But, yeah, call it whatever makes you comfortable.

The only "agenda" I may have is being sick and tired of the likes of you deciding when "enough is enough" in a discussion. The thread will continue for as long as the story is in the headlines, and as long as members on here care enough to contribute to it. Regardless of what you find pointless or repetitive or boring.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Didn't warrant a response, yet gave one anyway. Kind of sums it up.

Yes, I think you coming in and being personal with a bunch of people for daring to have a different opinion to you and daring to continue to discuss the ongoing story/interviews/developments in the thread (despite you apparently having grown bored of it) is unnecessary. Think what the hell you want about me, I don't care.

Now, I have an "agenda". Ok.
Whether Michael Jackson was or was not a pedophile, whether Wade and James are telling the truth or a pack of lies, whether they want justice or money makes ZERO difference to my life. But, yeah, call it whatever makes you comfortable.

The only "agenda" I may have is being sick and tired of the likes of you deciding when "enough is enough" in a discussion. The thread will continue for as long as the story is in the headlines, and as long as members on here care enough to contribute to it. Regardless of what you find pointless or repetitive or boring.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Didn't warrant a response, yet gave one anyway. Kind of sums it up.

Yes, I think you coming in and being personal with a bunch of people for daring to have a different opinion to you and daring to continue to discuss the ongoing story/interviews/developments in the thread (despite you apparently having grown bored of it) is unnecessary. Think what the hell you want about me, I don't care.

Now, I have an "agenda". Ok.
Whether Michael Jackson was or was not a pedophile, whether Wade and James are telling the truth or a pack of lies, whether they want justice or money makes ZERO difference to my life. But, yeah, call it whatever makes you comfortable.

The only "agenda" I may have is being sick and tired of the likes of you deciding when "enough is enough" in a discussion. The thread will continue for as long as the story is in the headlines, and as long as members on here care enough to contribute to it. Regardless of what you find pointless or repetitive or boring.

I mean it's a decent attempt however, unfortunately, we don't get to change the narrative on a forum because it only takes a click to check the facts;

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Sorry, but if we're condemning a dead man for accusations he can't defend himself against on the basis that said man was weird and eccentric then the entire frigging world has gone stark raving mad.

Yes, he was strange (the whole bloody family are rather weird) but that itself is not evidence of anything.

Post #29 on a 1500 post thread before the doc had even aired. Your leanings have been evident since literally the second page but you're trying to argue that you don't have one and are just now, today, saying something because of something I said yesterday.

Come on Marsh. At least try. Own your bias and by all means make an argument from that point but don't just start screeching that the sky is green and that you have no personal or emotional stake in the topic. Not when you tilted your hand in that regard on your first post in the thread, several weeks ago.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Post #29 on a 1500 post thread before the doc had even aired. Your leanings have been evident since literally the second page but you're trying to argue that you don't have one and are just now, today, saying something because of something I said yesterday.

Come on Marsh. At least try. Own your bias and by all means make an argument from that point but don't just start screeching that the sky is green and that you have no personal or emotional stake in the topic. Not when you tilted your hand in that regard on your first post in the thread, several weeks ago.

I'd return the favour but this is an appalling attempt at... whatever it is you're attempting to do.

The post you quote was pretty much my response to a bunch of people using the "Well, Michael Jackson WAS weird wasn't he guys?" as "evidence" of his guilt as a pedophile. I have no idea how that gives me an emotional stake in the topic but, yeah keep trying. I never suggested I had no opinions on the topic and everything that has been going on with this documentary. Just that whatever the actual TRUTH is, not what he or she said, or what is suggested by a certain piece of evidence on either side, but the actual TRUTH makes zero impact on my life.

So... still not quite sure what you're getting at. But, as I said earlier, whatever makes you comfortable in your ruling that the discussion is over.... seemingly because you have finished contributing.... apparently when your frequent postings in the thread say otherwise.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

I'd return the favour but this is an appalling attempt at... whatever it is you're attempting to do.

The post you quote was pretty much my response to a bunch of people using the "Well, Michael Jackson WAS weird wasn't he guys?" as "evidence" of his guilt as a pedophile. I have no idea how that gives me an emotional stake in the topic but, yeah keep trying. I never suggested I had no opinions on the topic and everything that has been going on with this documentary. Just that whatever the actual TRUTH is, not what he or she said, or what is suggested by a certain piece of evidence on either side, but the actual TRUTH makes zero impact on my life.

So... still not quite sure what you're getting at. But, as I said earlier, whatever makes you comfortable in your ruling that the discussion is over.... seemingly because you have finished contributing.... apparently when your frequent postings in the thread say otherwise.

OK Marsh. You haven't chosen a side on this topic at all, you've been totally neutral throughout, and have swooped in in outrage at the suggestion that the thread has become an obvious circlejerk, not because of any personal leaning on the topic, but because you felt a duty to protect the innocents of the thread against such heinous accusations. How dare!

Its a fun story so we'll go with it I guess.

Let's go back to the original point;


I don't think the thread is a debate or a discussion if its just people posting painfully dumb YouTube videos at each other and clapping each other on the back. I think it's a pointless circle-jerk. I don't care if you think that's harsh or disagree and I don't understand why you would think it's your place to step in "on principle" for the people posting them but again, I'm willing to accept that's what you're doing if you say it is, it doesn't change my opinion either way. 'tis in my opinion a pointless, boring circle-jerk and if saying so is against the rules then someone will infract me for it. Fair?

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

OK Marsh. You haven't chosen a side on this topic at all, you've been totally neutral throughout, and have swooped in in outrage at the suggestion that the thread has become an obvious circlejerk, not because of any personal leaning on the topic, but because you felt a duty to protect the innocents of the thread against such heinous accusations. How dare!

Its a fun story so we'll go with it I guess.

Where did I say I hadn't debated a side of the discussion when it comes to the validity of Wade Johnson or the Leaving Neverland documentary itself or comments made by others discussing it?

Where did I say "I'm neutral guys, I'm not saying a bad word about anyone and I'm not defending any sides or giving my opinion on the statements or "evidence" given on either side"? Oh, that's right, I didn't.

You quoted an opinion I gave on people jumping on the "Well, Michael Jackson was eccentric" as though that's any kind of proof of anything, just as much as I think I've pointed out the entirely ludicrous comments of the documentary maker himself, including his disastrous interview on GMB.

What I denied was an insinuation made by you that I have some kind of emotional stake in all of this whereby I refuse to believe Jackson was guilty and therefore cannot bear any argument against him. I've come in and pointed out I don't see the documentary as "proof" he was guilty. But if he IS guilty it has zero impact on me, just as if it's proven he is not. So you're attempt at labelling me biased is ludicrous.

That doesn't prevent me from commenting and giving my opinion on the validity of Johnson and the families, the stories, the history of the allegations against Jackson, his trial and 'Leaving Neverland'.

Have I defended Jackson and argued his innocence? No, don't think I've done that either. I've commented on people, comments, stories and allegations. The same as anyone else.

My response to you wasn't because you believe Wade's allegations, but because you're trying to stop the discussion because you apparently don't wish to continue with it. "I've said everything I want to say guys, anything else to be said is repetition, so why don't you all shush!" I'd have responded to that attitude regardless of which side of the debate you fell on.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Where did I say I hadn't debated a side of the discussion when it comes to the validity of Wade Johnson or the Leaving Neverland documentary itself or comments made by others discussing it?



Where did I say "I'm neutral guys, I'm not saying a bad word about anyone and I'm not defending any sides or giving my opinion on the statements or "evidence" given on either side"? Oh, that's right, I didn't.



You quoted an opinion I gave on people jumping on the "Well, Michael Jackson was eccentric" as though that's any kind of proof of anything, just as much as I think I've pointed out the entirely ludicrous comments of the documentary maker himself, including his disastrous interview on GMB.



What I denied was an insinuation made by you that I have some kind of emotional stake in all of this whereby I refuse to believe Jackson was guilty and therefore cannot bear any argument against him. I've come in and pointed out I don't see the documentary as "proof" he was guilty. But if he IS guilty it has zero impact on me, just as if it's proven he is not. So you're attempt at labelling me biased is ludicrous.



That doesn't prevent me from commenting and giving my opinion on the validity of Johnson and the families, the stories, the history of the allegations against Jackson, his trial and 'Leaving Neverland'.



My response to you wasn't because you believe Wade's allegations, but because you're trying to stop the discussion because you apparently don't wish to continue with it. "I've said everything I want to say guys, anything else to be said is repetition, so why don't you all shush!" I'd have responded to that attitude regardless of which side of the debate you fell on.

Yes I already said that I'm willing to pretend accept that this was the reason for your cavalry charge but I also already responded with that being the case;

I don't think the thread is a debate or a discussion if its just people posting painfully dumb YouTube videos at each other and clapping each other on the back. I think it's a pointless circle-jerk. I don't care if you think that's harsh or disagree and I don't understand why you would think it's your place to step in "on principle" for the people posting them but again, I'm willing to accept that's what you're doing if you say it is, it doesn't change my opinion either way. 'tis in my opinion a pointless, boring circle-jerk and if saying so is against the rules then someone will infract me for it. Fair?

[Marsh.]

Aww, I know it's hard to accept you were wrong and apologise. But it will get easier when you grow up.

No hard feelings.

[Marsh.]

Interesting, I've just found a grand total of ONE Michael Jackson track currently sitting in my iTunes account. I'm pretty much the biggest fan of his alive now, yes?

Wow, I'm sorry guys, I'll leave it to the non-biased people to discuss. I do apologise.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Interesting, I've just found a grand total of ONE Michael Jackson track currently sitting in my iTunes account. I'm pretty much the biggest fan of his alive now, yes?

Wow, I'm sorry guys, I'll leave it to the non-biased people to discuss. I do apologise.

I didn't say you were a Michael Jackson fan I said you had a bias on the thread and that was the reason for you jumping on the circle jerk comment. You made your leanings clear early and thus the idea that you "simply" decided to comment on an injustice that occurred two weeks into a thread for unbiased reasons is utter nonsense .

[Toy Soldier]

I mean jesus christ Marsh, you have Kazanne posting clapping gifs at you. Take a look at yourself fgs.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I didn't say you were a Michael Jackson fan I said you had a bias on the thread and that was the reason for you jumping on the circle jerk comment. You made your leanings clear early and thus the idea that you "simply" decided to comment on an injustice that occurred two weeks into a thread for unbiased reasons is utter nonsense .

So, I pointed out a dick comment you made was a dick comment because you believe the allegations against Jackson?

Have you read a single word?

Oh dear.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I mean jesus christ Marsh, you have Kazanne posting clapping gifs at you. Take a look at yourself fgs.

So...?

She's not posted a clapping gif at me saying "OMG GUYS JACKSON WAS INNOCENT!!" so I'm not sure what bias you're possibly referring to at all.

If anything, you can't take criticism and are inventing things.

I don't believe Jackson was innocent anymore than I believe he was guilty. My opinion on the documentary and the documentary maker do not dispute either of those things.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I didn't say you were a Michael Jackson fan I said you had a bias on the thread and that was the reason for you jumping on the circle jerk comment. You made your leanings clear early and thus the idea that you "simply" decided to comment on an injustice that occurred two weeks into a thread for unbiased reasons is utter nonsense .

I wouldn't say Marsh was biased ,just fair,I mean to debate we should listen to BOTH sides of a story, which is why I watched the mockumentary although I didn't want to as I didn't want to add to the ratings of this biased program,but I watched so I could debate both sides but really it was hashed up old news in the guise of 'fresh' evidence,I think TS you would just like the last word on the thread,you do always claim you are right, which is what we all do but surely by listening and watching BOTH sides not just poo pooing the YouTube videos,they are probably more truthful than the glossy Mockumentry. Marsh never said he was a fan,he just sees things from the outside.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

So, I pointed out a dick comment you made was a dick comment because you believe the allegations against Jackson?



Have you read a single word?



Oh dear.

You chose to point it out because you picked your tribe early in this thread and it's been a heated and polarised discussion, yes, 100%.

Well OK maybe 95%, I think 5% was probably just because you wanted to try swinging your net wang around a bit?

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I mean jesus christ Marsh, you have Kazanne posting clapping gifs at you. Take a look at yourself fgs.

I posted that Gif as imo Marsh is being fair,he is not on either side,but there is an air of arrogance about you there is always one that thinks they are smarter than everyone else,we all have our own opinions,no one is smarter, you seem to want to put people down of they have a differing opinion,I mean the 'circle jerk' comment, was there really any need ?

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

I posted that Gif as imo Marsh is being fair,he is not on either side,but there is an air of arrogance about you there is always one that thinks they are smarter than everyone else,we all have our own opinions,no one is smarter, you seem to want to put people down of they have a differing opinion,I mean the 'circle jerk' comment, was there really any need ?

Any need for the phrasing? Debatable I suppose, I could have shared the same opinion using different words but it would have been far less succinct. I could have referred to it as "watching people preaching to the choir" but that's not very well phrased. I suppose I could have called it an echo chamber, or a back-patting circle? But circlejerk still seems like the quickest way to say those things and we're all grownups here.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

You chose to point it out because you picked your tribe early in this thread and it's been a heated and polarised discussion, yes, 100%.

Well OK maybe 95%, I think 5% was probably just because you wanted to try swinging your net wang around a bit?

Oh dear. That may be how you think. Not me.

I comment on the topic and agree/disagree with comments and opinions, not forum members. Hence why Kazanne has certainly not posted clapping smileys in response to my posts in many other threads and I've agreed with you in some others.

Wouldn't say I've been in any heated discussion with anyone on this particular topic until the last 2 pages when you declared the discussion over as you were no longer interested.

I've debated the very shaky foundations of this new documentary, does that mean I am a passionate defender of Jackson and declare him innocent? No. Not at all.

But, seriously, "tribe"? Think you need to grow up.

[Niamh.]

Michael Jackson still causing problems from beyond the grave

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Michael Jackson still causing problems from beyond the grave

We shall call it 'Never Leaving TiBB'.