Ban the Burka.

[NettoSuperstar!]

more people have died because of man's need for power and approbation.

Religion among many other things has been used to justify acts of aggression through the ages.

For once I kinda agree, its mans obsession with power and constant need to belong to a group and distinguish themselves from others thats at the root of all the destruction (and a heavy dose of testosterone and hatred), its a viscious circle. But it is the creation of religion also that is part of that but not the spiritual thought behind it.

[NettoSuperstar!]

Do you believe religion deserves respect?

No I believe the spiritual thought behind it and people deserve respect...and who are you or I or anyone to tell them whats right or wrong? We ALL no **** all

[InOne]

No I believe the spiritual thought behind it and people deserve respect...and who are you or I or anyone to tell them whats right or wrong? We ALL no **** all

It's not about right or wrong. It's about the Burka and what is stands for. It is a sign of opression of a once Taliban dominated country. Women don't need them over here. Yes they have a choice and all that but why? Hijab is fine, Burka poses all sorts of questions and usually causes disruption with security threats and that.

[NettoSuperstar!]

It's not about right or wrong. It's about the Burka and what is stands for. It is a sign of opression of a once Taliban dominated country. Women don't need them over here. Yes they have a choice and all that but why? Hijab is fine, Burka poses all sorts of questions and usually causes disruption with security threats and that.

Well lets put it in perspective. How disruptive is it really? on some occasions its not appropriate, ie checking in at an airport, in some work settings...most woment that wear them are probably aware of that. But the key is, a percieved "other" group enforcing their will on another group is not going to help anyone particularly not the women that are forced to wear them. Its a well researched fact.

[InOne]

Well lets put it in perspective. How disruptive is it really? on some occasions its not appropriate, ie checking in at an airport, in some work settings...most woment that wear them are probably aware of that. But the key is, a percieved "other" group enforcing their will on another group is not going to help anyone particularly not the women that are forced to wear them. Its a well researched fact.

I know, but it might give them more of a voice to speak out to do so. Also, it's not really that nice to look at, there are often communication problems. It is really not needed. Yes they have a choice, but they could give a little bit of courtesy our way too.

[WOMBAI]

Well lets put it in perspective. How disruptive is it really, on some occasions its not appropriate, ie checking in at an airport, in some work settings...most woment that wear them are probably aware of that. But the key is, a percieved "other" group enforcing their will on another group is not going to help anyone particularly not the women that are forced to wear them. Its a well researched fact.

Whose perspective - yours or mine! Again very subjective!

As this is Britian - and the wearing of such a garment contradicts the values of British culture - why should it be allowed! Many would find it offensive.

And the security issue is of paramount importance - bearing in mind we are living in such delicate and sensitive times. You can't deny that the burka could hide a multitude of sins - and it could be used as a weapon against us. And that is not pie in the sky - that is a very plausible and very real possibility.

[Wildcat!]

Whose perspective - yours or mine! Again very subjective!

As this is Britian - and the wearing of such a garment contradicts the values of British culture - why should it be allowed! Many would find it offensive.

And the security issue is of paramount importance - bearing in mind we are living in such delicate and sensitive times. You can't deny that the burka could hide a multitude of sins - and it could be used as a weapon against us. And that is not pie in the sky - that is a very plausible and very real possibility.

I didnt even want to get into this debate again, but some of the posts on here are unbelievable.

British culture what? Look here, I completely agree with things like Burka, not allowed in a place where you need to be identified, like school, or others, but to say they should be banned, thats unbelievably intolerant. How does that make you any different than any oppressive regime?

What is british culture? Is there a certain way youre supposed to dress in the British culture? HOw the heck does wearing such garment contradict British culture? Do women who cover themselves with Hijabs also contradict the culture? PLease. If people decide to wear Burka, thats their choice.

And Burka could hide a multitude of sins? WTF? What sins? How hypocritical can you get?

[WOMBAI]

I didnt even want to get into this debate again, but some of the posts on here are unbelievable.

British culture what? Look here, I completely agree with things like Burka, not allowed in a place where you need to be identified, like school, or others, but to say they should be banned, thats unbelievably intolerant. How does that make you any different than any oppressive regime?

What is british culture? Is there a certain way youre supposed to dress in the British culture? HOw the heck does wearing such garment contradict British culture? Do women who cover themselves with Hijabs also contradict the culture? PLease. If people decide to wear Burka, thats their choice.

And Burka could hide a multitude of sins? WTF? What sins? How hypocritical can you get?

How is that hypocritical. I don't dress in a way that impedes identification or that represents oppression. It is not the covering of the body - it is the covering of the face - one's identity - that causes concern. The whole point of the burka is so that we cannot see who is underneath it. Anyone could use a burka to obtain entry to a school or some other building like the twin towers for sinister reasons. Something like that may have seemed far fetched once - but not any more. We have threats of terrorism hanging over us every day - are you really saying there is no way a burka could be used to disguise a terrorist.

And for many British women (who by the way make up more than 50% of the population) the burka represents the oppression of women. That goes against our culture and beliefs. We cannot be seen to condone it - neither should we want to.

[NettoSuperstar!]

whoooooosh...thats the sound of sense and reason whizzing by! lol

[Wildcat!]

How is that hypocritical. I don't dress in a way that impedes identification or that represents oppression. It is not the covering of the body - it is the covering of the face - one's identity - that causes concern. The whole point of the burka is so that we cannot see who is underneath it. Anyone could use a burka to obtain entry to a school or some other building like the twin towers for sinister reasons. Something like that may have seemed far fetched once - but not any more. We have threats of terrorism hanging over us every day - are you really saying there is no way a burka could be used to disguise a terrorist.

And for many British women (who by the way make up more than 50% of the population) the burka represents the oppression of women. That goes against our culture and beliefs. We cannot be seen to condone it - neither should we want to.


If its that, then ban anyone who is covered from head to toe, including people wearing hoodies, hijabs, and everything similar. Dig deep into your logical sense and think: How often do terrorists conceal their identity? (ermm almost never). YOu know why? because most of them kill themselves. MOst of them want to be seen for their causes. They dont hide their faces, thats just a cop out. Anyone can be a terrorist regardless of how they are dressed.


And sorry, but most muslims in this country, do not wear the Burka, those who do, choose to do so. Its not a symbol of oppression, thats absolutely ridiculous. Just like any religion, there are always those who take it a lot more seriously than others, and these days, its usually the minority. I am sure you know people who are extremely religious compared to the majority. Thats the people you see wearing Burkas in the western world. Just because some people dont want to conform to the western dress code, they are automatically oppressed! You seem obssessed with this notion of women being oppressed, if they dont do what you do! Just like the chastity rings, that are now popular among American teenagers, you somehow turned it into a women oppressed issue as well. NEwsflash, there are as many men and women who wear them.

I think a lot of you people should look yourself in the mirror, and check your prejudices. Like I said early in this thread, I dont think Burka should be allowed in certain places, but in no way should be banned. This starts, and pretty soon siks are gonna be asked to shave their beard, and not wear their traditional clothes.

[WOMBAI]

If its that, then ban anyone who is covered from head to toe, including people wearing hoodies, hijabs, and everything similar. How often do terrorists conceal their identity? MOst of them want to be seen for their causes. They dont hide their faces, thats just a cop out. Anyone can be a terrorist regardless of how they are dressed.


And sorry, but most muslims in this country, do not wear the Burka, those who do, choose to do so. Its not a symboly of oppression, thats absolutely ridiculous. Just because some people dont want to conform to the western dress code, they are automatically oppressed! You seem obsessed with this notion of women being oppressed, if they dont do what you do! Just like the chastily rings, that are now popular among American teenagers, you somehow turned it into a women oppressed issue as well.

I think a lot of you people should look yourself in the mirror, and check your prejudices. Like I said early in this thread, I dont think Burka should be allowed in certain places, but in no way should be banned.

The burka is the only item of clothing I object to, not hijabs, for the reasons already mentioned. I already said it is about the covering of the face. And a lot of people have condemned the wearing of hoodies - as they also can hide a person's face - but not as much as a burka.

Not all those that wear a burka choose to - it is an accepted fact that some, at least, are pressured, if not forced to wear it. That is the main reason why it is so controversial. You sound like you are coming from the perspective of a man - who refuses to acknowledge that that goes on.

I cannot believe you actually said that terroists rarely cover their faces. On the news, in documentaries they nearly always have their faces covered - they don't want to be identified. It has always annoyed me as it shows them for the cowards they are - if you believe in your cause - you don't hide your face.

[*mazedsalv**]

YES BAN THEM!!

The other week i saw a woman beside us sitting in her car driving with it on... how is that safe?? With it on, you cant see sideways, so it is generally making it very dangerous for her and others. You can only see directly, so what if a car is coming at the side but she cant see?

Okay i dont really see many people driving with their hoods up, but even so, hoodies only cover the head, people wearing hoodies can still see through their side view mirrors... people with the burka's cant.

[Wildcat!]

The burka is the only item of clothing I object to, not hijabs, for the reasons already mentioned. I already said it is about the covering of the face. And a lot of people have condemned the wearing of hoodies - as they also can hide a person's face - but not as much as a burka.

Not all those that wear a burka choose to - it is an accepted fact that some, at least, are pressured, if not forced to wear it. That is the main reason why it is so controversial. You sound like you are coming from the perspective of a man - who refuses to acknowledge that that goes on.

I cannot believe you actually said that terroists rarely cover their faces. On the news, in documentaries they nearly always have their faces covered - they don't want to be identified. It has always annoyed me as it shows them for the cowards they are - if you believe in your cause - you don't hide your face.


Thats BS!! Those who cover their faces, are the same as bank robbers, or hostage takers who cover their face, and sorry, but I have yet to see, a terrorist, bank robber, etc... wearing a Burkha.
Those you see on the news with their faces covered, are the hostage takers who send tapes to the media, with messages. OF course their faces are gonna be covered.
In this case, with your argument, its about terrorists walking into a buliding to do some damage of a sort. Those people dont cover themselves. And the reason why you dont see them in the press, is because they are usually dead.

And once again, most people who do wear the Burkha, choose to do so, they arent forced.

[Wildcat!]

YES BAN THEM!!

The other week i saw a woman beside us sitting in her car driving with it on... how is that safe?? With it on, you cant see sideways, so it is generally making it very dangerous for her and others. You can only see directly, so what if a car is coming at the side but she cant see?

Okay i dont really see many people driving with their hoods up, but even so, hoodies only cover the head, people wearing hoodies can still see through their side view mirrors... people with the burka's cant.

LMAO!!!! Are you kidding me with this? Look at the picture from the OP, they have perfect peripheral vision! Someone wearing a hoodie does not!!! Put one on right now, and see how your peripheral vision is. The Burkha has no interference in your vision whatsoever. How ridiculous!!


YOu think someone dressed like this, has a better peripheral vision than the picture in the OP???
Use some common sense for gods sakes.
http://www.besportier.com/archives/eleonore-de-ruuk-hoodie-clothing.jpg

[WOMBAI]

Thats BS!! Those who cover their faces, are the same as bank robbers, or hostage takers who cover their face, and sorry, but I have yet to see, a terrorist, bank robber, etc... wearing a Burkha.
Those you see on the news with their faces covered, are the hostage takers who send tapes to the media, with messages. OF course their faces are gonna be covered.
In this case, with your argument, its about terrorists walking into a buliding to do some damage of a sort. Those people dont cover themselves. And the reason why you dont see them in the press, is because they are usually dead.

And once again, most people who do wear the Burkha, choose to do so, they arent forced.

If just one woman in this country is wearing it against her will - it is unacceptable. As a country we cannot condone it.

You can't tell if it is a man or a woman under that thing. Could be either. A man could pose as a woman knowing that people would probably be reluctant to manhandle or search a 'Muslim' woman. Perfectly feasible. Not to mention there are many female terrorists/sympathisers - or are you going to deny that one as well.

[Wildcat!]

If just one woman in this country is wearing it against her will - it is unacceptable. As a country we cannot condone it.

You can't tell if it is a man or a woman under that thing. Could be either. A man could pose as a woman knowing that people would probably be reluctant to manhandle or search a 'Muslim' woman. Perfectly feasible. Not to mention there are many female terrorists/sympathisers - or are you going to deny that one as well.

Then lets also ban the Jewish Kid who is forced to wear those Jewish clothing, and shave their heads. And the Sikh who is asked to wear the Sikh uniform. Its the danger that you run into, if you try to do these kinds of things. You cant make a big deal out of exceptions. There are people who wear things that they dont want to, all the time. Even regular kids, and teenagers, everyday are forced to dress a certain way by their parents. Its very telling that its the muslim who is always scrutinized.

As for it could be anyone under there, because they dont want to be manhandled? WHat a ridiculous argument that is! SO cross dressing should be illegal then shouldnt it? For crying out loud!

[WOMBAI]

Then lets also ban the Jewish Kid who is forced to wear those Jewish clothing, and shave their heads. And the Sikh who is asked to wear the Sikh uniform. Its the danger that you run into, if you try to do these kinds of things. You cant make a big deal out of exceptions. There are people who wear things that they dont want to, all the time. Even regular kids, and teenagers, everyday are forced to dress a certain way by their parents. Its very telling that its the muslim who is always scrutinized.

As for it could be anyone under there, because they dont want to be manhandled? WHat a ridiculous argument that is! SO cross dressing should be illegal then shouldnt it? For crying out loud!

Yes - that is true - but it is the reason behind it that makes this more objectionable and more sinister than the others. It is about the woman being viewed as some man's property - as a person without an identity of her own. There is no doubting that the Muslim religion is oppressive towards women and the burka is a very visible symbol of that.

And it could be anyone under there! How can you deny that. There is no way of telling - unless you remove the robe - and many would be reluctant to remove the robe of what might be a genuine Muslim woman - knowing the offence that would cause. Do you honestly think no terrorist would play on that one!

[Wildcat!]

Yes - that is true - but it is the reason behind it that makes this more objectionable and more sinister than the others. It is about the woman being viewed as some man's property - as a person without an identity of her own. There is no doubting that the Muslim religion is oppressive towards women and the burka is a very visible symbol of that.

And it could be anyone under there! How can you deny that. There is no way of telling - unless you remove the robe - and many would be reluctant to remove the robe of what might be a genuine Muslim woman - knowing the offence that would cause. Do you honestly think no terrorist would play on that one!

Who the hell would remove the robe, if its a man, or a woman? Who cares?
There has never been any type of terrorist attack, in the western world, by someone wearing a Burkha, that is a fact!

What I said, is pretty simple. A lot of people can disguise themselves as a woman, Burkha or not! So whats the point?

[*mazedsalv**]

LMAO!!!! Are you kidding me with this? Look at the picture from the OP, they have perfect peripheral vision! Someone wearing a hoodie does not!!! Put one on right now, and see how your peripheral vision is. The Burkha has no interference in your vision whatsoever. How ridiculous!!


YOu think someone dressed like this, has a better peripheral vision than the picture in the OP???
Use some common sense for gods sakes.
http://www.besportier.com/archives/eleonore-de-ruuk-hoodie-clothing.jpg


Okay maybe im swrong... but NO WAY is a hoodie just as dangerous. The burka covers more of the face making it worse to wear whilst driving. Anyway, ive hardly seen anyone stupid enough to wear a hoodie up while driving... it was hyperthetical.

[Oldmansteptoe!]

As per usual an Irish person completely getting the wrong end of the stick!
This country is far to easy going , the enemy is within, where I live we have had suicide bombers, that is totally unacceptable in a democratic country!
This is a 'Christian country' and the word tolerance is often misused to allow intolerant people and terrorists to operate however they like
If people cannot or will not abide by the British way of life they should not be here!

[Wildcat!]

Okay maybe im swrong... but NO WAY is a hoodie just as dangerous. The burka covers more of the face making it worse to wear whilst driving. Anyway, ive hardly seen anyone stupid enough to wear a hoodie up while driving... it was hyperthetical.

So then, how are you wrong???:conf::conf:
You say maybe youre wrong, but yet maintain that the Burkha is more dangerous?
How does covering your face interfere with your driving??? DO you think these through or.....

[WOMBAI]

LMAO!!!! Are you kidding me with this? Look at the picture from the OP, they have perfect peripheral vision! Someone wearing a hoodie does not!!! Put one on right now, and see how your peripheral vision is. The Burkha has no interference in your vision whatsoever. How ridiculous!!


YOu think someone dressed like this, has a better peripheral vision than the picture in the OP???
Use some common sense for gods sakes.
http://www.besportier.com/archives/eleonore-de-ruuk-hoodie-clothing.jpg

The difference is that a hood can be pulled down very easily for driving, etc. A burka cannot as the woman is not allowed to remove it - when there are any men around who might see her face.

[Wildcat!]

The difference is that a hood can be pulled down very easily for driving, etc. A burka cannot as the woman is not allowed to remove it - when there are any men around who might see her face.

The think is, it does not interfere with your vision whatsoever!! Period!

[Wildcat!]

As per usual an Irish person completely getting the wrong end of the stick!
This country is far to easy going , the enemy is within, where I live we have had suicide bombers, that is totally unacceptable in a democratic country!
This is a 'Christian country' and the word tolerance is often misused to allow intolerant people and terrorists to operate however they like
If people cannot or will not abide by the British way of life they should not be here!

Christian country? LMAO!!!
Most of this country are atheiists!! HOw deluded are you thinking its a christian country. Please.

[WOMBAI]

Christian country? LMAO!!!
Most of this country are atheiists!! HOw deluded are you thinking its a christian country. Please.

You are missing the point! Its history and tradition are that of Christianity - which is the way most people want it to stay. In keeping with that - we have a culture and way of life we want to protect. Just as most other religions/cultures do - and that would apply to the Muslim religion more than most. They want to keep their identity and way of life - we want to keep ours. What is wrong with that. As they have chosen to live in our country - they should be prepared to adopt our way of life, within reason - not to expect us to constantly make allowances for them.

[Oldmansteptoe!]

Christian country? LMAO!!!
Most of this country are atheiists!! HOw deluded are you thinking its a christian country. Please.


The majority of people in this country would say they are Christian, there is no room for all this other rubbish it leads to trouble, we need a government to sort this all out now, although I fear it's to late
And no, I am not a BNP supporter I despise them!

[Wildcat!]

You are missing the point! Its history and tradition are that of Christianity - which is the way most people want it to stay. In keeping with that - we have a culture and way of life we want to protect. Just as most other religions/cultures do - and that would apply to the Muslim religion more than most. They want to keep their identity and way of life - we want to keep ours. What is wrong with that. As they have chosen to live in our country - they should be prepared to adopt our way of life, within reason - not to expect us to constantly make allowances for them.


Are you kidding me? Do you not live in England? English culture is as far removed from religious culture, as any country I have ever seen. And you are kidding yourself if you dont know that.
And if you were to talk about Christian values, how does Burkha interfere with that, in any shape or form???

ANd once again, you are completely killing your argument about women rights, by bringing in christianity to defend it. I dont even want to go into that, but you know what Im saying.

[Wildcat!]

The majority of people in this country would say they are Christian, there is no room for all this other rubbish it leads to trouble, we need a government to sort this all out now, although I fear it's to late
And no, I am not a BNP supporter I despise them!

This has nothing to do with BNP, its fair opinion and debate. But let me tell you something, you are wrong, if you think this country has any religious values whatsoever, unless you are blind.
There is no need for all this other rubbish, it leads to trouble???? Listen to yourself. Thats the kind of talk Staline and Hitler use to give.

[WOMBAI]

Are you kidding me? Do you not live in England? English culture is as far removed from religious culture, as any country I have ever seen. And you are kidding yourself if you dont know that.
And if you were to talk about Christian values, how does Burkha interfere with that, in any shape or form???

ANd once again, you are completely killing your argument about women rights, by bringing in christianity to defend it. I dont even want to go into that, but you know what Im saying.

Yes - but Christianity has moved with the times - the Muslim religion certainly hasn't - things like stoning women to dealth for adultery - is positively medieval. What would you like to do? Turn England into a Muslim country - turn it into another Afghanistan. This is England - with a history of Christianity - and that is how it is going to stay.

[Stu]

Are you kidding me? Do you not live in England? English culture is as far removed from religious culture, as any country I have ever seen. And you are kidding yourself if you dont know that.
And if you were to talk about Christian values, how does Burkha interfere with that, in any shape or form???

ANd once again, you are completely killing your argument about women rights, by bringing in christianity to defend it. I dont even want to go into that, but you know what Im saying.
You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Everywhere in the western world is far removed from religion these days, but still on paper Britain is a Christian country. Whether they practice or not, most people, the vast, vast majority, are Christians. It's a statistical fact.

The Burka may not interfere with Christian values directly, but it certainly interferes with the common values of decent, freedom loving, rational people the world over.

[Wildcat!]

Yes - but Christianity has moved with the times - the Muslim religion certainly hasn't - things like stoning women to dealth for adultery - is positively medieval. What would you like to do? Turn England into a Muslim country - turn it into another Afghanistan. This is England - with a history of Christianity - and that is how it is going to stay.


OH please! DOnt give me that Bullshiit. MOst British people have no religious affiliation whatsoever. YOu can cling on to that notion all you want, its not there. And its one of the reasons why we would even have such a debate, because no religion nowadays will condone intolerance.

As for the last point about turning england into a muslim country? Cmon, is that even worst answering? How silly can you get.

[Stu]

MOst British people have no religious affiliation whatsoever.
Statistics disagree with you. That's not open to debate, by the way. Your simply wrong.

[Wildcat!]

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Everywhere in the western world is far removed from religion these days, but still on paper Britain is a Christian country. Whether they practice or not, most people, the vast, vast majority, are Christians. It's a statistical fact.

The Burka may not interfere with Christian values directly, but it certainly interferes with the common values of decent, freedom loving, rational people the world over.

Ermm, no, its not everywhere in the western world, its mainly in Europe, and particularly in the UK. YOu may think that its the same all over the west but its not, trust me.
NO one is forced to wear the Burkha. And people try to bring all the reasons in the book in here, to deny the people who choose to wear it.
Common deceny? Some would argue common decency the other way around, but for me, it doesnt matter, how a person chooses to dress, thats their choice. And religion is also that, a choice.

[Wildcat!]

Statistics disagree with you. That's not open to debate, by the way. Your simply wrong.


Statistics means that they were baptised christian. But in the real world, I know for a fact, most people dont believe in their religion. I am talking from personal experience, and I am sure most people have the same. They will agree with me, in another debate. BUt of course, they will disagree in this case, because its suits their point on this debate, knowing perfectly well, what the real truth is.

[Stu]

Statistics means that they were baptised christian. But in the real world, I know for a fact, most people dont believe in their religion. I am talking from personal experience, and I am sure most people have the same.
But they will use it when it suits them in a debate, knowing perfectly well, what the real truth is.
Well I agree with that, that is basically what I am saying, that they are Christians 'on paper' if you like, but it still means officially, like it or not, and trust me - I hate it, that this, and indeed my country, is a Christian country.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Well I agree with that, that is basically what I am saying, that they are Christians 'on paper' if you like, but it still means officially, like it or not, and trust me - I hate it, that this, and indeed my country, is a Christian country.

haha THE TRUTH

the truth my friends, will set you free. age will reveal all..

[WOMBAI]

OH please! DOnt give me that Bullshiit. MOst British people have no religious affiliation whatsoever. YOu can cling on to that notion all you want, its not there. And its one of the reasons why we would even have such a debate, because no religion nowadays will condone intolerance.

As for the last point about turning england into a muslim country? Cmon, is that even worst answering? How silly can you get.

That is irrelevant! It is about the culture and way of life that stems from it. It is about our history and identity. We are not about to stand by and have it eroded by other religions and cultures. Muslims constantly demand 'special privileges' and 'concessions' according to their religious beliefs that often conflict with our way of life - despite living in England they expect us to adapt to them rather than them adapt to us.

[Wildcat!]

That is irrelevant! It is about the culture and way of life that stems from it. It is about our history and identity. We are not about to stand by and have it eroded by other religions and cultures. Muslims constantly demand 'special privileges' and 'concessions' according to their religious beliefs that often conflict with our way of life - despite living in England they expect us to adapt to them rather than them adapt to us.

Okay what particular way of life, of todays Britain, stems from Christianity??? Please explain!

[Stu]

Okay what particular way of life, of todays Britain, stems from Christianity??? Please explain!
You have a point here. It's not those evil Muslims that are eroding British Christian culture, it's Briton's themselves who are, quiet rightly, embracing a more agnostic and atheist approach to life.

[WOMBAI]

Many things. But speaking as a woman - freedom is the first thing that comes to mind. The freedom to basically do as I please - wear what I want, have a career, choose who I marry, have a good education - the list is endless. To have my own identity, to be valued as an equal and to make my own choices in life. I am not answerable to anyone - and that is the way I like it. If we were to loose our culture and identity - that could change. It certainly would - if the Muslim religion ever took hold.

[Wildcat!]

Many things. But speaking as a woman - freedom is the first thing that comes to mind. The freedom to basically do as I please - wear what I want, have a career, choose who I marry, have a good education - the list is endless. To have my own identity, to be valued as an equal and to make my own choices in life. I am not answerable to anyone - and that is the way I like it. If we were to loose our culture and identity - that could change. It certainly would - if the Muslim religion ever took hold.


Ermm, how does that come from christianity again??

[Stu]

Many things. But speaking as a woman - freedom is the first thing that comes to mind. The freedom to basically do as I please - wear what I want, have a career, choose who I marry, have a good education - the list is endless. To have my own identity, to be valued as an equal and to make my own choices in life. I am not answerable to anyone - and that is the way I like it. If we were to loose our culture and identity - that could change. It certainly would - if the Muslim religion ever took hold.
I doubt it's really going to take hold as much as people are hyping it up to be. I know it's on the rise, but so is a complete disregard for any religious belief whatsoever. That's the odd thing about this decade. Fundamentalism and Atheism have both become huge things.

[Stu]

Now for the fun part...




* Corinthians, 14:34-35: "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

* Exodus 21:7-8: And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do. If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her."

* Genesis 3:16: "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

* Genesis 19:8 "Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes"

* Leviticus 19:20: "And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free."

* Leviticus 27:3-7: "And thy estimation shall be of the male from twenty years old even unto sixty years old, even thy estimation shall be fifty shekels of silver... And if it be a female, then thy estimation shall be thirty shekels. And if it be from five years old even unto twenty years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male twenty shekels, and for the female ten shekels. And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver. And if it be from sixty years old and above; if it be a male, then thy estimation shall be fifteen shekels, and for the female ten shekels."

* Deuteronomy 21:11-14: And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife. Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house, and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails. And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will..."

* Genesis 25:1 "Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah." [Only problem is that Abraham already had a wife (Sarah), and an abandoned concubine (Hagar).]

* 26:34, 29:29 "And Esau was forty years old when he took to wife Judith the daughter of Beeri the Hittite, and Bashemath the daughter of Elon the Hittite. ... Then went Esau unto Ishmael, and took unto the wives which he had Mahalath the daughter of Ishmael Abraham's son, the sister of Nebajoth, to be his wife."

* Genesis 32:22: "And he rose up that night, and took his two wives, and his two womenservants, "

* Genesis 36:6: "And Esau took his wives...."




Christianity. What a great moral bedrock for both men and women :rolleyes:.

[Wildcat!]

If we were to loose our culture and identity - that could change. It certainly would - if the Muslim religion ever took hold.


And thats my whole point. LIke Islam has any chance whatsoever in in taking over the UK. Apart from their personal ways, they have no influence on people who are not Muslim. And its ridiculous to think so.
If muslim people can maintain their culture, certainly non muslim can as well, since no one is forcing anyone.

[WOMBAI]

Ermm, how does that come from christianity again??

In my view - Christianity has allowed us the freedoms to choose our own way in life. Something that could not have happened with the Muslim religion.

[Wildcat!]

Now for the fun part...




* Corinthians, 14:34-35: "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

* Exodus 21:7-8: And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do. If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her."

* Genesis 3:16: "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

* Genesis 19:8 "Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes"

* Leviticus 19:20: "And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free."

* Leviticus 27:3-7: "And thy estimation shall be of the male from twenty years old even unto sixty years old, even thy estimation shall be fifty shekels of silver... And if it be a female, then thy estimation shall be thirty shekels. And if it be from five years old even unto twenty years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male twenty shekels, and for the female ten shekels. And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver. And if it be from sixty years old and above; if it be a male, then thy estimation shall be fifteen shekels, and for the female ten shekels."

* Deuteronomy 21:11-14: And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife. Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house, and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails. And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will..."

* Genesis 25:1 "Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah." [Only problem is that Abraham already had a wife (Sarah), and an abandoned concubine (Hagar).]

* 26:34, 29:29 "And Esau was forty years old when he took to wife Judith the daughter of Beeri the Hittite, and Bashemath the daughter of Elon the Hittite. ... Then went Esau unto Ishmael, and took unto the wives which he had Mahalath the daughter of Ishmael Abraham's son, the sister of Nebajoth, to be his wife."

* Genesis 32:22: "And he rose up that night, and took his two wives, and his two womenservants, "

* Genesis 36:6: "And Esau took his wives...."




Christianity. What a great moral bedrock for both men and women :rolleyes:.


I was about to post something similar, but this is way more concise than I ever could.

[Wildcat!]

In my view - Christianity has allowed us the freedoms to choose our own way in life. Something that could not have happened with the Muslim religion.


NO! Its not christianity, thats you getting away from christianity. Dont even kid yourself. And thats my whole point about the delusion, people thinking somehow Islam has any chance to change anything. YOu are not following christianity, sorry! Thats why I said ealier, you killed your debate by bringing in christianity to defend your views.

[WOMBAI]

NO! Its not christianity, thats you getting away from christianity. Dont even kid yourself. And thats my whole point about the delusion, people thinking somehow Islam has any chance to change anything. YOu are not following christianity, sorry! Thats why I said ealier, you killed your debate by bringing in christianity to defend your views.

But I was able to do that because Christianity today is not a dictorial and controlling religion in the same way that the Muslim religion is. There is no punishment for not conforming. I made a choice. I repeat - the British culture has its own unique identity - and its roots come from Christianity.

Throughout history, Britain has been a very strong country, despite its size, and a lot of those strengths came from its strong Christian beliefs. Times have moved on - and although those beliefs are not practiced by as many - that is where our identity lies. You don't have to practice, or even believe, but those roots are still a part of you and where you come from.

Most Brits still value that - and don't want things to change.

[Stu]

You don't have to practice, or even believe, but those roots are still a part of you and where you come from.
Christianity is not relevant today, though. And that's fine by me. It's where we have come from, yeah, but what's a part of us that's suddenly going to be lost if the cross goes the way of the dodo?

Your also contradicting your own argument. Obviously things have in fact changed because Christianity and the law influenced by it used to be so much stricter back throughout history.

[Wildcat!]

OH I give up! When you cant even see your own contradictions, then youre a lost cause for me on a debate.

[WOMBAI]

The debate has got too caught up in religion. I have stated on several occassions that it isn't so much about the religion but the culture and way of live that has resulted from it. If this had originated as a Muslim country - our way of live would be completely different. That is my point. To deny that our Christian history has anything to do with our current way of life - stikes me as absurd. We are what we are - moulded by many things - a big part of that is our history - our Christian roots giving us the identity we have today as a nation.

[Wildcat!]

The debate has got too caught up in religion. I have stated on several occassions that it isn't so much about the religion but the culture and way of live that has resulted from it. If this had originated as a Muslim country - our way of live would be completely different. That is my point. To deny that our Christian history has anything to do with our current way of life - stikes me as absurd. We are what we are - moulded by many things - a big part of that is our history - our Christian roots giving us the identity we have today as a nation.


Guess what, my country(Senegal) is 95 % muslim. Hardly anyone wears hijab, nobody wears Burkha (I have never seen it) Women wear mini skirt, there are homosexuals, women are as free as any western culture.
The Burkha again is a personal thing, believe it or not. Less than 5% of women maybe wear them. Its like in any religion, there are always those that follow it to the letter, more than others. Some even more than they should. Even in Christianity, you will see that. Go see the mormons in the US.

But trust me, most people who wear it, choose to do so on their own.
I lived in Morocco as a kid, and one of our maids use to wear it, as soon as she leaves the house, and we always made fun of her. ANd she was not married, she lived in a apartment with another friend. It was just her convictions.
My point is, its not because people wear something extreme, that somehow, they are oppressed. And they dont force it on anyone.
LIke I said before, I do think it shouldnt be allowed in certain places, like schools, and anywhere people need to be identified, but to the woman going about her day, I dont see what the hell is the problem.

[Stu]

We are what we are - moulded by many things - a big part of that is our history - our Christian roots giving us the identity we have today as a nation.
Here's where I get confused. Of course Christianity is a part of British history, but what major relevance does it play for most today? Now?

Not much.

[Wildcat!]

Here's where I get confused. Of course Christianity is a part of British history, but what major relevance does it play for most today? Now?

Not much.

MOre like nothing, apart from Christmas and Easter. And thats more party time, than lets go to church time.

[hannah.]

morrissey <3
also
i agree

[Stu]

MOre like nothing, apart from Christmas and Easter. And thats more party time, than lets go to church time.
Yeah, we celebrate the death and resurrection of our messiah by telling kids a rabbit left chocolate eggs all over the house. Wonderful, isn't it?

[Oldmansteptoe!]

This has nothing to do with BNP, its fair opinion and debate. But let me tell you something, you are wrong, if you think this country has any religious values whatsoever, unless you are blind.
There is no need for all this other rubbish, it leads to trouble???? Listen to yourself. Thats the kind of talk Staline and Hitler use to give.


It is because of 'liberals' like you that we are in the state we are in today
and Stalin doesn't have an e on the end, but you got Hitler right, well done!


:joker:

[Wildcat!]

It is because of 'liberals' like you that we are in the state we are in today
and Stalin doesn't have an e on the end, but you got Hitler right, well done!


:joker:

.............
Anyways!
Meanwhile back in the land of the sane...

[hannah.]

Here's where I get confused. Of course Christianity is a part of British history, but what major relevance does it play for most today? Now?

Not much.

nothing apart from the world stopping on sundays.

[Stu]

It is because of 'liberals' like you that we are in the state we are in today
and Stalin doesn't have an e on the end, but you got Hitler right, well done!


:joker:
Christ that was dismal.

[WOMBAI]

Guess what, my country(Senegal) is 95 % muslim. Hardly anyone wears hijab, nobody wears Burkha (I have never seen it) Women wear mini skirt, there are homosexuals, women are as free as any western culture.
The Burkha again is a personal thing, believe it or not. Less than 5% of women maybe wear them. Its like in any religion, there are always those that follow it to the letter, more than others. Some even more than they should. Even in Christianity, you will see that. Go see the mormons in the US.

But trust me, most people who wear it, choose to do so on their own.
I lived in Morocco as a kid, and one of our maids use to wear it, as soon as she leaves the house, and we always made fun of her. ANd she was not married, she lived in a apartment with another friend. It was just her convictions.
My point is, its not because people wear something extreme, that somehow, they are oppressed. And they dont force it on anyone.
LIke I said before, I do think it shouldnt be allowed in certain places, like schools, and anywhere people need to be identified, but to the woman going about her day, I dont see what the hell is the problem.

I found this an interesting read. You might too! One of your own quotes (Wildcat) from a previous post:

"Very good article. Somewould benefit from reading that, instead of making these stupid assumptions, and dumb scenarios." I rest my case!
__________________

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1195052/Why-I-British-Muslim-woman-want-burkha-banned-streets.html

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/world-news/both-muslim-non-muslim-brits-support-sarkozys-anti-burkha-call_100208908.html

[Stu]

Daily Mail lolz.

[AndyJK]

What do you think? I see it as a tool of opression and should be banned on public transport, and public transport. Bascially everywhere. They say it is a modest yet it draws more attention to them anyway??

http://mrap66.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/burka1.jpg

I agree I don't believe it has a place in any free society. There is something menacing about it and I don't believe women should be covered in this way, it's demeaning.

Besides there are security issues to take into account also. We've already had an incident where a suspected bomber was able to flee the country dressed up in one.

[WOMBAI]

I agree I don't believe it has a place in any free society. There is something menacing about it and I don't believe women should be covered in this way, it's demeaning.

Besides there are security issues to take into account also. We've already had an incident where a suspected bomber was able to flee the country dressed up in one.

Thank you - you have proved my point.

[AndyJK]

Thank you - you have proved my point.

What point is that?

[WOMBAI]

What point is that?

That a burkha impedes identification - and that anyone could be under there - including a terrorist with sinister motives.

[AndyJK]

That a burkha impedes identification - and that anyone could be under there - including a terrorist with sinister motives.

Exactly and it makes life even harder for our beleaguered police force already bogged down in red tape and burdened with political correctness.

[InOne]

Well it is not really about Islam, it is about the principal of wearing it. But, as anyone who knows anything about Islam will know it is a forceful militant Religion. But anyway, the point is more about respect for the Country they seem to hate, yet insist on living it. It is not very appealing to look at. It has nothing to do with Islam and was imposed by the Taliban. It may not be a tool of opression here, but it is in some countries, and it is a dishonour to those women who are forced to wear. Also with Sharia courts in Britian, of course some women don't have a choice, just the same with marrige. You would be naive to think so.

[NettoSuperstar!]

I found this an interesting read. You might too! One of your own quotes (Wildcat) from a previous post:

"Very good article. Somewould benefit from reading that, instead of making these stupid assumptions, and dumb scenarios." I rest my case!
__________________

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1195052/Why-I-British-Muslim-woman-want-burkha-banned-streets.html

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/world-news/both-muslim-non-muslim-brits-support-sarkozys-anti-burkha-call_100208908.html

Yeh precisely what Ive been arguing...its the mulsim women of Britain that should be having this fight, not ignorant white people looking for an excuse to portray muslims in a bad light! Like you care two ***** about muslim women!

[NettoSuperstar!]

Well it is not really about Islam, it is about the principal of wearing it. But, as anyone who knows anything about Islam will know it is a forceful militant Religion. But anyway, the point is more about respect for the Country they seem to hate, yet insist on living it. It is not very appealing to look at. It has nothing to do with Islam and was imposed by the Taliban. It may not be a tool of opression here, but it is in some countries, and it is a dishonour to those women who are forced to wear. Also with Sharia courts in Britian, of course some women don't have a choice, just the same with marrige. You would be naive to think so.

There you go again...in one breath your saying its nothing to do with Islam and in the next breath your calling Islam a "forceful" "militant" religion! wtf???

[WOMBAI]

Yeh precisely what Ive been arguing...its the mulsim women of Britain that should be having this fight, not ignorant white people looking for an excuse to portray muslims in a bad light! Like you care two ***** about muslim women!

Your arguments have supported Muslim women wearing burkhas - whereas the above articles clearly don't.

And it isn't just about Muslim women (you are as prejudice as you accuse others of being) - this affects all women living in Britain. I care about womens' rights in general - the oppression of any women on the grounds of their sex affects us all. Do you not understand that?

You should look at that great big chip on your shoulder - before you are so quick to accuse others of being ignorant!

[NettoSuperstar!]

Your arguments have supported Muslim women wearing burkhas - whereas the above articles clearly don't.

And it isn't just about Muslim women (you are as prejudice as you accuse others of being) - this affects all women living in Britain. I care about womens' rights in general - the oppression of any women on the grounds of their sex affects us all. Do you not understand that?

You should look at that great big chip on your shoulder - before you are so quick to accuse others of being ignorant!

Ive supported peoples right to choose yes, there are women who choose to wear it. And yes I may see it as oppressive but its not for me to enforce my will on the people that do it out of choice. Its a fight for muslims women themselves and our role is to support them not play the role of the enforcer (it doesnt work it only pushes those marginalised already to furthur extremes)... and Im sorry but some of the comments on here lead me to believe that this is another excuse to portray muslims as fanatical generally...there is a pattern forming and some of you are blatantly intolerant and prejudiced!

[WOMBAI]

Ive supported peoples right to choose yes, there are women who choose to wear it. And yes I may see it as oppressive but its not for me to enforce my will on the people that do it out of choice. Its a fight for muslims women themselves and our role is to support them not play the role of the enforcer (it doesnt work it only pushes those marginalised already to furthur extremes)... and Im sorry but some of the comments on here lead me to believe that this is another excuse to portray muslims as fanatical generally...there is a pattern forming and some of you are blatantly intolerant and prejudiced!

You are still missing the point! Whether they have a right to that 'choice' you keep bleating on about is the point. They have CHOSEN to live in a non-Muslim country - therefore it is not just about their choice - when such a choice goes against the values of the culture already established in that country.

For every Muslim woman that 'chooses' to wear it - there are many more that don't. It is what it represents. There is plenty of evidence to suggest many muslims are only doing so to be controversial and stir up trouble - the wearing of a burkha is not required under Islamic law.

There is no denying that the Muslim religion makes many demands - but does it have a right to do so in a non-Muslim country? In mine and many others opinions - it does not! And as for your intolerance comment - the Muslim religion is the most intolerant of all - so don't judge me based on your obvious double standards.

[NettoSuperstar!]

You are still missing the point! Whether they have a right to that 'choice' you keep bleating on about is the point. They have CHOSEN to live in a non-Muslim country - therefore it is not just about their choice - when such a choice goes against the values of the culture already established in that country.

For every Muslim woman that 'chooses' to wear it - there are many more that don't. It is what it represents. There is plenty of evidence to suggest many muslims are only doing so to be controversial and stir up trouble - the wearing of a burkha is not required under Islamic law.

There is no denying that the Muslim religion makes many demands - but does it have a right to do so in a non-Muslim country? In mine and many others opinions - it does not! And as for your intolerance comment - the Muslim religion is the most intolerant of all - so don't judge me based on your obvious double standards.

The muslim religion is not intolerant, your making a very sweeping generalisation based on the values and political motivations of a small minority. This is a country that accepts all cultures and respects peoples rights to wear whatever they bloody well like and most people do so appropriately and cause no harm. The argument against enforcement is obviously lost on you so I'll give up...till the next time you guys have some rant about muslims to make

[Stu]

The muslim religion is not intolerant, your making a very sweeping generalisation based on the values and political motivations of a small minority. This is a country that accepts all cultures and respects peoples rights to wear whatever they bloody well like and most people do so appropriately and cause no harm. The argument against enforcement is obviously lost on you so I'll give up...till the next time you guys have some rant about muslims to make
Repped :thumbs:.

[WOMBAI]

The muslim religion is not intolerant, your making a very sweeping generalisation based on the values and political motivations of a small minority. This is a country that accepts all cultures and respects peoples rights to wear whatever they bloody well like and most people do so appropriately and cause no harm. The argument against enforcement is obviously lost on you so I'll give up...till the next time you guys have some rant about muslims to make

Clearly many in this country do not respect people's rights to wear whatever they bloodywell like - without question - as is shown by the strong feeling against the wearing of such clothing! We have our principles too! We have proved to be a very tolerant nation - but some are taking liberties and attempting to enforce their will - they just don't like it when we stand up and say - enough!

For me, the following quote says it all:

"My message to those Muslims who want to live in a Talibanised society, and turn their face against Britain, is this: 'If you don't like living here and don't want to integrate, then what the hell are you doing here? Why don't you just go and live in an Islamic country?'"


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1195052/Why-I-British-Muslim-woman-want-burkha-banned-streets.html#ixzz0XPo700Qo

[AndyJK]

Clearly many in this country do not respect people's rights to wear whatever they bloodywell like - without question - as is shown by the strong feeling against the wearing of such clothing! We have our principles too! We have proved to be a very tolerant nation - but some are taking liberties and attempting to enforce their will - they just don't like it when we stand up and say - enough!

For me, the following quote says it all:

"My message to those Muslims who want to live in a Talibanised society, and turn their face against Britain, is this: 'If you don't like living here and don't want to integrate, then what the hell are you doing here? Why don't you just go and live in an Islamic country?'"


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1195052/Why-I-British-Muslim-woman-want-burkha-banned-streets.html#ixzz0XPo700Qo

I know quite a bit about Saira Khan and I agree with what she said in the article. But don't expect the spineless politicans in Westminster to get tough and ban the burkha. As far as I know none of the main parties will do anything so drastic. No guesses why that is.

As to the answer to your question, I can only make a conjecture and say I imagine most Muslims who arrive here are asylum seekers who want a better quality of life at the tax payers' expense. And because our borders and immigration controls are more lax than other european countries they believe they stand a better chance to live here permanently than the first safe country they entered where there is a higher chance that will be deported.

Why else would someone who is non-English speaking, has strong Islamic views and customs alien to our own tradiotions and have lived in hot climates want to come here.

[WOMBAI]

I know quite a bit about Saira Khan and I agree with what she said in the article. But don't expect the spineless politicans in Westminster to get tough and ban the burkha. As far as I know none of the main parties will do anything so drastic. No guesses why that is.

As to the answer to your question, I can only make a conjecture and say I imagine most Muslims who arrive here are asylum seekers who want a better quality of life at the tax payers' expense. And because our borders and immigration controls are more lax than other european countries they believe they stand a better chance to live here permanently than the first safe country they entered where there is a higher chance that will be deported.

Why else would someone who is non-English speaking, has strong Islamic views and customs alien to our own tradiotions and have lived in hot climates want to come here.

Agreed - undoubtedly they came here for a better quality of life - but once here make little effort to integrate with us and our culture and just exhibit a lack of tolerance and understanding of our way of life - whilst expecting us to be welcoming, tolerant and understanding of theirs. It is double standards at its worst. I am sick to death of people resorting to calling anyone who objects to this - racist - it's the oldest trick in the book - an attempt to shut us up.

In many ways - we may have become a multicultural country - but that doesn't mean we don't still have a dominant culture and religion of our own. Some people on here throw the words multicultural and diversity around as an excuse to deny us and our country - our identity and our rights. Can be really annoying.

[AndyJK]

Agreed - undoubtedly they came here for a better quality of life - but once here make little effort to integrate with us and our culture and just exhibit a lack of tolerance and understanding of our way of life - whilst expecting us to be welcoming, tolerant and understanding of theirs. It is double standards at its worst. I am sick to death of people resorting to calling anyone who objects to this - racist - it's the oldest trick in the book - an attempt to shut us up.

In many ways - we may have become a multicultural country - but that doesn't mean we don't still have a dominant culture and religion of our own. Some people on here throw the words multicultural and diversity around as an excuse to deny us and our country - our identity and our rights. Can be really annoying.

I may come across as a hypocrite but is our own way of life any better? We have criminals given slapped wrists even for serious crimes such as assault due to over populated prisons and clogged up court waiting lists, while victims of crime are treated like criminals themselves. We have procreation on the rise in teenagers, a drug culture, binge drinking, social unrest, ghettos springing up in inner cities, civil disobedience and rise in public debt. More and more kids leave school with fewer qualifications and those who do dream about hedonisitic lifestyles of working in the media, appearing on TV, becoming pin up models and reality stars than aspiring to be scientists or mathematicians. The Christian faith is becoming more and more irrelevant and fewer people want to get married preferring a life of promiscuity leaving more and more kids growing up without families. The Scots and Welsh dislike the English and want more and more independence making the country more and more divided. Europe has more control over how we are governed making our own elected politicians nothing more than pygmies. I could go on but you probably get the gist.

So I ask myself is our way of life worth protecting anymore when there is so much wrong with it?

[WOMBAI]

I may come across as a hypocrite but is our own way of life any better? We have criminals given slapped wrists even for serious crimes such as assault due to over populated prisons and clogged up court waiting lists, while victims of crime are treated like criminals themselves. We have procreation on the rise in teenagers, a drug culture, binge drinking, social unrest, ghettos springing up in inner cities, civil disobedience and rise in public debt. More and more kids leave school with fewer qualifications and those who do dream about hedonisitic lifestyles of working in the media, appearing on TV, becoming pin up models and reality stars than aspiring to be scientists or mathematicians. The Christian faith is becoming more and more irrelevant and fewer people want to get married preferring a life of promiscuity leaving more and more kids growing up without families. The Scots and Welsh dislike the English and want more and more independence making the country more and more divided. Europe has more control over how we are governed making our own elected politicians nothing more than pygmies. I could go on but you probably get the gist.

So I ask myself is our way of life worth protecting anymore when there is so much wrong with it?

Granted - our way of life is far from perfect - but I think it has its good points. You paint a bleak picture - and although I don't disagree with a lot of what you say - I still think it's worth preserving.

As a woman - I value the freedoms and choices we have today - definitely a step forward as far as I am concerned. It is hard to say what exactly has led to the problems we have now - far too big a subject - and will be lots of different opinions - but, as far as I can see, allowing other cultures to become more dominant in this country can only make the situation worse.

[InOne]

There you go again...in one breath your saying its nothing to do with Islam and in the next breath your calling Islam a "forceful" "militant" religion! wtf???

That is the thing. They make it to do with Islam.

[InOne]

Can't be bothered looking at all the bullshit someoone might put against it. If you are up for eroding the British culture that is up to you. If you don't accept Britain has a culture, like most the edit who argue against it seem to think, then that is your problem. You just live in your multicultural bubble. Hope it gets you far and leads you a happy life. Britain sadly does not seem to have a say anymore, all too PC, so hope you multiculturalists are happy with yourself. So happy to shout racist is you say anything about Islam. So happy to keep the 'peace' at all costs. Just to grind it into the skulls of the stupid, Islam is not a race, they don't class themselves as a race so why do you class them as one? You say it all falls into the same thing? Well it clearly does not. This is about the Burka, the Burka is not wanted here, plain and simple.

[Alf]

come over to the right

[InOne]

Seems we are dealing with idiocy in this thread!!!!

[Alf]

this thread's depressing so i'm gonna cheer it up with a bit of peter kay

-X3vwPLCB1c

[InOne]

Not depressing, just realistic!

[Alf]

So I ask myself is our way of life worth protecting anymore when there is so much wrong with it?
it was this that depressed me, apart from this quote, this was a great post by mr jk

[InOne]

Well guess you need to get into the real world then!!!

[Alf]

Well guess you need to get into the real world then!!!
whats your problem buddy?

[InOne]

whats your problem buddy?

Nothing man. What is your view on the matter!! Sorry had a few too many lastnight.

[AndyJK]

I did paint a bleak picture of our country and admit Im more of a pessimist than an optimist these days. Yes there are still things in our country worth fighting for and I am not suggesting people give up fighting for what they believe. But bear in mind we have an out-of-date first past the post electoral system which means it will always be either New Labour or Tory who win, and the other parties will use tactical voting to gang up against any smaller party seen as a threat of winning a seat. Im a fan of UKIP but theres little hope of them ever winning a seat and those who do vote for them spread the right-wing vote which could let in or keep in a New Labour candidate.

There won't be any quick fix or even a start to the solution until certain Acts are revoked, namely the Human Rights Act of which its many loopholes lawyers are exploiting to line their own pockets (which includes people like Cheri Blair and makes you wonder how much influence she had on government policy) and we replace the first past the post system with proportional representation. Although the Tories have said they will look at changing or getting rid of the Human Rights Act they have said they wont alter the electoral votring system.

I can see nationalism rising as the main parties become more and more weaker, irrelevant and out of touch.

[InOne]

The UK has become too PC for it's own good. Always wanting to keep other people happy...

[Wildcat!]

Deleted

[InOne]

deleted

[WOMBAI]

I did paint a bleak picture of our country and admit Im more of a pessimist than an optimist these days. Yes there are still things in our country worth fighting for and I am not suggesting people give up fighting for what they believe. But bear in mind we have an out-of-date first past the post electoral system which means it will always be either New Labour or Tory who win, and the other parties will use tactical voting to gang up against any smaller party seen as a threat of winning a seat. Im a fan of UKIP but theres little hope of them ever winning a seat and those who do vote for them spread the right-wing vote which could let in or keep in a New Labour candidate.

There won't be any quick fix or even a start to the solution until certain Acts are revoked, namely the Human Rights Act of which its many loopholes lawyers are exploiting to line their own pockets (which includes people like Cheri Blair and makes you wonder how much influence she had on government policy) and we replace the first past the post system with proportional representation. Although the Tories have said they will look at changing or getting rid of the Human Rights Act they have said they wont alter the electoral votring system.

I can see nationalism rising as the main parties become more and more weaker, irrelevant and out of touch.

Certainly the human right 'freedom of expression' is only applicable to a select few in Britain.

[Beastie]

Deleted

[InOne]

Deleted

My comments were too rock n roll for the forum lol :P

[WOMBAI]

Deleted

Tell you what - you delete John & Edward permanently - then MAYBE I will delete my comment!

[InOne]

Tell you what - you delete John & Edward permanently - then MAYBE I will delete my comment!

Calm down dear.

[WOMBAI]

Moi! Never calmer!