View Full Version : Why does homophobia exist?
Jack_
07-11-2009, 12:07 AM
Is it down to the way we're brought up? Is it religious beliefs? Is it people just following the crowd?
Or something else?
I think people feel threatend by same sex couples,i don't although saying that i have never saw a same sex couples in real life just on TV.
WOMBAI
07-11-2009, 12:10 AM
Is it down to the way we're brought up? Is it religious beliefs? Is it people just following the crowd?
Or something else?
Combination of all three - I think!
A combination of a few things, really. Same reason racism and sexism exist. And organized religion, for that matter. When people get stuck in there ways it is very hard to change them. Plus the sight of two men kissing on the street looks odd to many. But if it happened more often people would eventually become normalized to it over time. Look how far we've come!
That's why my remedy for most peoples general ignorance is a healthy YouTube regiment of Bill Hicks.
Jack_
07-11-2009, 12:16 AM
Personally I'd say it's the way we're brought up. If you think about it, from the minute we're born we're instantly bisexual. It's not until we start to grow up that everything around us is based around opposite sex couples, our parents etc. Stories, fairytales, TV shows all base their shows around love between man and woman. We begin to believe that anything else isn't 'normal', and so thus become straight until we get older and begin to realise that it isn't just like that.
It's not until, or unless you actually think about why it exists that you start to realise that things don't just have to be about a man and a woman. For people who haven't/don't do this I think it's just a mix of what I said before and following the crowd, i.e everyone else hates them, so I will too.
from the minute we're born we're instantly bisexual.
Ooh. Uh...
That's certainly a novel and interesting viewpoint I am sure is true in some cases but I believe ultimately it is in our consciousness or destiny if you like what sexual preference we are.
The Bible told people it was wrong and because we've been a largely religious country until the past 100 years or so, a lot of Christian values exist in our culture and continue to be passed down.
The Bible told people it was wrong and because we've been a largely religious country until the past 100 years or so, a lot of Christian values exist in our culture and continue to be passed down.
I think general ignorance also comes into play though. People must have the ignorance and disgust in them to want to be homophobic too, not just because the Bible tells them it's wrong. The Bible tells us thousands of things are wrong. From the genuinely wrong to the downright bizarre.
I think in most cases The Bible merely acted as a convenient supported for certain peoples pre existing homophobia.
I think general ignorance also comes into play though. People must have the ignorance and disgust in them to want to be homophobic too, not just because the Bible tells them it's wrong. The Bible tells us thousands of things are wrong. From the genuinely wrong to the downright bizarre.
I think in most cases The Bible merely acted as a convenient supported for certain peoples pre existing homophobia.
People took it as truths and as a result has become something that is disapproved of. I think some people underestimate the impact that religion has actually had on everything even today and thats probably where, as you say, ignorance comes in.
People took it as truths and as a result has become something that is disapproved of. I think some people underestimate the impact that religion has actually had on everything even today and thats probably where, as you say, ignorance comes in.
I agree. Although religious practices is declining certain facets have stayed and in some cases no longer even need the 'religion' part.
Wildcat!
07-11-2009, 12:40 AM
Personally I'd say it's the way we're brought up. If you think about it, from the minute we're born we're instantly bisexual. It's not until we start to grow up that everything around us is based around opposite sex couples, our parents etc. Stories, fairytales, TV shows all base their shows around love between man and woman. We begin to believe that anything else isn't 'normal', and so thus become straight until we get older and begin to realise that it isn't just like that.
It's not until, or unless you actually think about why it exists that you start to realise that things don't just have to be about a man and a woman. For people who haven't/don't do this I think it's just a mix of what I said before and following the crowd, i.e everyone else hates them, so I will too.
BUt it isnt normal. I dont care how you spin it! There is a reason why only men and women can procreate. Its an anomally for sure. Most people would never think, or consider being with the same sex, ever. That is a fact. ANd of course if you are gay, you think people are in denial etc.... NOt true, its because you are different, for one reason or another.
Now, I dont have any problems with homosexuals, and I am not disgusted or anything. Some of my good friends are gay, and we can talk openly about anything.
So my point is, I can perectly understand, people finding it not normal, but People have to be neam spirited, and bad by nature to be homophobic.
Because imo, youre homophobic, if you take some ative ation against homosexuals. like persecute them, call them names, discriminate against them, in jobs, or anything else.
So take out religion, and how you are raised, it will still be about the same percentage of people who are gay.
There is a reason why only men and women can procreate.
Yes. Simple science. There's no divine reason beyond that. If there was there would be no gay people in the first place unless divine force wanted to punk some people out from birth which is rather bizarre. It simply takes a man and a woman to make children. Some of which turn out to be gay. Imagine that.
Most people would never think, or consider being with the same sex, ever. That is a fact.
Numbers have nothing to do with it. Most people would not think or even consider skydiving.
So take out religion, and how you are raised, it will still be about the same percentage of people who are gay.
You just created an argument for homosexuality being a natural, normal part of life, admitting yourself it has nothing to do with social constraints.
BUt it isnt normal. I dont care how you spin it! There is a reason why only men and women can procreate..
It is normal, evident by the fact that a sizable percentage of the world's population was gay, is gay and will be gay in the future. Not being able to procreate has nothing to do with sexual desire. People have protected sex all the time, which prevents any possible pregnancy and takes procreation out of the equation, just like gay sex.
I really don't get what procreation has to do with gay sex not being normal. They have different sexual desires. They just happen to not be able to procreate with them.
_Seth
07-11-2009, 01:03 AM
More about it needs to be taught in schools. And some homophobes simply haven't had enough of these throughout their lives:
http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc80/Phlip_03/Saved%20images/stuckuporiginal.jpg
Princess
07-11-2009, 01:05 AM
People are scared of things that they have no clue about. Or they're just idiots.
People are scared of things that they have no clue about. Or they're just idiots.
This also. A simple fear of the unfamiliar. Which is why I said if more gay men were walking the streets as couples, the next generation would grow up normalized to it. But the reason they don't all openly walk the streets as couples is precisely BECAUSE of homophobia. It's a vicious circle.
But again, look how far we have come already as a society. It is my hope and opinion that in the future homophobia will exist much like Neo Nazism does now confined merely to extremist fringe groups.
Beastie
07-11-2009, 01:08 AM
To be honest, nowadays you are probs deemed more weird if you are "straight" rather than bi or gay. Being bisexual or gay is becoming more common now, more acceptable. The homophobic people well are probablly more traditional but need to accept the fact that same sex couples exist.
Lauren
07-11-2009, 01:08 AM
On subject with Stu and Wildcat... I think homosexual 'sex' is neither normal nor abnormal, because it comes under the subject of sex - which is completely 100% natural. The desire of sex is fuelled by our need to reach a sexual pique, and whicever way this is achieved is natural. Nothing to do with procreation in my view.
To be quite honest, homophobes are far too concerned about others sexual behaviour. Seriously, whats it to them who people are attracted to?
Beastie
07-11-2009, 01:10 AM
On subject with Stu and Wildcat... I think homosexual 'sex' is neither normal nor abnormal, because it comes under the subject of sex - which is completely 100% natural. The desire of sex is fuelled by our need to reach a sexual pique, and whicever way this is achieved is natural. Nothing to do with procreation in my view.
To be quite honest, homophobes are far too concerned about others sexual behaviour. Seriously, whats it to them who people are attracted to?
Yeah they should concentrate on their own sexual attractions and desires rather than being bothered about other people's.
On subject with Stu and Wildcat... I think homosexual 'sex' is neither normal nor abnormal, because it comes under the subject of sex - which is completely 100% natural. The desire of sex is fuelled by our need to reach a sexual pique, and whicever way this is achieved is natural. Nothing to do with procreation in my view.
Actually that's far better than my explanation, yeah. It's sexual desire that needs to be fulfilled. Plain and simple.
Yeah they should concentrate on their own sexual attractions and desires rather than being bothered about other people's.
They are probably not getting any themselves! That's the underlying cause of most of the world's tensions in this humble perverts eyes.
setanta
07-11-2009, 01:13 AM
Actually that's far better than my explanation, yeah. It's sexual desire that needs to be fulfilled. Plain and simple.
They are probably not getting any themselves! That's the underlying cause of most of the world's tensions in this humble perverts eyes.
Yep, my uncle always said that the problems and violence of the world would be cut dramatically if every fella on the planet had a good old peddle and crank every morning and every night of their lives.
Yep, my uncle always said that the problems and violence of the world would be cut dramatically if every fella on the planet had a good old peddle and crank every morning and every night of their lives.
Your uncle is my new hero :hugesmile:.
Such an eloquent way of putting it!
setanta
07-11-2009, 01:16 AM
Your uncle is my new hero :hugesmile:.
Such an eloquent way of putting it!
It has a ring to it alright... it's not sexy but sure it doesn't have to be, not when you're flying solo anyway.
MrGaryy
07-11-2009, 01:18 AM
Well it's a number of many, many things really. I think in young teens it really just is a fear of going against the grain, I doubt half the 13 year olds labelling people as queer or fags, if you genuinely broke down their personality meant it in an offensive way but they know that if they speak in a way similar to others it will make them more acceptable. Not to excuse that sort of thing or anything, just my personal explanation.
In turn, this young upbringing - from their peers not their parents - gives them the mindset that gay is bad and straight is fine. Most people mean more to it than that, most people who use homophobic slurs aren't actually homophobic, merely ignorant.
and frankly I think people who are genuinely homophobic have WAY too much time on their hands if they feel so strongly about how people, who apparently disgust them, lives their lives.
If homosexuality isn't normal then it wouldn't happen. It isn't forced on anyone. Its just less common than being straight.
Crimson Dynamo
07-11-2009, 09:35 AM
I never come across homophobia. In what form does the op mean? 1-5% of the UK is classed as homosexual so it must be few and far between. (although because of the bias towards tv entertainment it seems like higher)
Spike
07-11-2009, 10:05 AM
I think the main reason is children are brought up to think being straight is normal and maybe the only option. I know when I was a child I didn't know that there could be such a thing as same sex couples, if people were more open with their children about this kind of thing then maybe homophobia would die out
BUt it isnt normal. I dont care how you spin it! There is a reason why only men and women can procreate. Its an anomally for sure. Most people would never think, or consider being with the same sex, ever. That is a fact. ANd of course if you are gay, you think people are in denial etc.... NOt true, its because you are different, for one reason or another.
Now, I dont have any problems with homosexuals, and I am not disgusted or anything. Some of my good friends are gay, and we can talk openly about anything.
So my point is, I can perectly understand, people finding it not normal, but People have to be neam spirited, and bad by nature to be homophobic.
Because imo, youre homophobic, if you take some ative ation against homosexuals. like persecute them, call them names, discriminate against them, in jobs, or anything else.
So take out religion, and how you are raised, it will still be about the same percentage of people who are gay.
I agree with Wildcat...
Most straight males I know are not comfortable with seeing 2 gay men together (neither are some females) but this does not mean they are homophobic. I do know one man who, quite disgustingly, is proud to admit that during his punk days, he used to go out "**** bashing"; he uses derogatory language when talking about gays and takes is stupidly far by refusing to listen to music if it is by somebody gay. I really don't have an explanation for him being like this... maybe it's because he is a bit older and was brought up in an age where it was more taboo than it is nowadays..
I actually don't think there is as much homophobia these days and people are quick to label people who don't want it rubbed in their faces as homophobic..
Most straight males I know are not comfortable with seeing 2 gay men together (neither are some females) but this does not mean they are homophobic.
That is the point of the thread though. It may not mean they are homophobic, but likewise it does not make being gay abnormal. And actually, yes, I would consider it 'homophobic'. Not in a violent way, extreme way but if seeing two guys kissing creeps you out then obviously you are homophobic to a certain extent. If you are arachnophobic you don't like the look of spiders. They give you the shivers.
I really don't have an explanation for him being like this.
I do. It's because he is a ****ing moron.
Also, there is still a massive amount of homophobia everywhere. Just because the media and politicians have put on a brave face and accepted it counts for nothing.
Jack_
07-11-2009, 12:37 PM
Well it's a number of many, many things really. I think in young teens it really just is a fear of going against the grain, I doubt half the 13 year olds labelling people as queer or fags, if you genuinely broke down their personality meant it in an offensive way but they know that if they speak in a way similar to others it will make them more acceptable. Not to excuse that sort of thing or anything, just my personal explanation.
I'd agree with that.
On subject with Stu and Wildcat... I think homosexual 'sex' is neither normal nor abnormal, because it comes under the subject of sex - which is completely 100% natural. The desire of sex is fuelled by our need to reach a sexual pique, and whicever way this is achieved is natural. Nothing to do with procreation in my view.
And this, very good explanation.
I think the main reason is children are brought up to think being straight is normal and maybe the only option. I know when I was a child I didn't know that there could be such a thing as same sex couples, if people were more open with their children about this kind of thing then maybe homophobia would die out
This is pretty much what I believe but just put into a simpler form. Like Stu said earlier the thread, hopefully in the next generation homophobia will have been wiped out and only the small few will still be homophobic.
Crimson Dynamo
07-11-2009, 12:56 PM
I think that overall people with ginger hair get a far worse treatment. Numbers that is. I realise the odd person gets a hiding but overall I would say that people with ginger hair is a bigger ism or phobia
That is the point of the thread though. It may not mean they are homophobic, but likewise it does not make being gay abnormal. And actually, yes, I would consider it 'homophobic'. Not in a violent way, extreme way but if seeing two guys kissing creeps you out then obviously you are homophobic to a certain extent. If you are arachnophobic you don't like the look of spiders. They give you the shivers.
I do. It's because he is a ****ing moron.
Also, there is still a massive amount of homophobia everywhere. Just because the media and politicians have put on a brave face and accepted it counts for nothing.
I don't think it's homophobic at all... Being gay is not abnormal, but to a straight man, seeing two men together is ; doesn't mean they feel hatred towards them or fear them...
I also think a lot of gay men feel the need to exaggerate their "gayness" to prove something to the world... I have a gay friend who is very comfortable with his sexuality, he doesn't hide it and is quite open, but him and his partner lead a completely normal life like any other couple.. they don't "camp it up"/only frequent gay bars/walk about with their tongues down each others throats etc. They are comfortable with themselves and don't feel the need to shout to the world "We're gay and we'll show you we're gay and the whole world had better accept it"
And yes you're right, he is an effing moron!
And just to mention your spider analogy... I am not arachnaphobic; I don't scream or shiver when I see a spider. I don't however go out my way to look at them. I don't enjoy looking at them, I don't have a reason for it, I just don't
I don't think it's homophobic at all... Being gay is not abnormal, but to a straight man, seeing two men together is ; doesn't mean they feel hatred towards them or fear them...
I also think a lot of gay men feel the need to exaggerate their "gayness" to prove something to the world... I have a gay friend who is very comfortable with his sexuality, he doesn't hide it and is quite open, but him and his partner lead a completely normal life like any other couple.. they don't "camp it up"/only frequent gay bars/walk about with their tongues down each others throats etc. They are comfortable with themselves and don't feel the need to shout to the world "We're gay and we'll show you we're gay and the whole world had better accept it"
And yes you're right, he is an effing moron!
And just to mention your spider analogy... I am not arachnaphobic; I don't scream or shiver when I see a spider. I don't however go out my way to look at them. I don't enjoy looking at them, I don't have a reason for it, I just don't
I still think they are homophobic to a certain extent. They are uncomfortable seeing gay men.
Camp gay men will always exist, it's just who you are. I feel a twinge of campness in me sometimes. It's not something you can control and it's not something you fake FFS. Why are straight people shoving it down my throat [lolz] that they are straight by only frequenting straight bars and jamming each others tongues down there throats?
See how ridiculous that argument sounds? Gay people are proud to be gay. Good for them. Do you not think, maybe, the fact that they brag about it MAY have something to do with the fact that homophobia still exists and grown men are still uncomfortable around gays?
I still think they are homophobic to a certain extent. They are uncomfortable seeing gay men.
Camp gay men will always exist, it's just who you are. I feel a twinge of campness in me sometimes. It's not something you can control and it's not something you fake FFS. Why are straight people shoving it down my throat [lolz] that they are straight by only frequenting straight bars and jamming each others tongues down there throats?
See how ridiculous that argument sounds? Gay people are proud to be gay. Good for them. Do you not think, maybe, the fact that they brag about it MAY have something to do with the fact that homophobia still exists and grown men are still uncomfortable around gays?
I'm not saying all gay men "fake" campness, but some certainly do.. I used to be involved in the fashion industry where there were plenty of gay males around. Many of them used to completely change when working and would slip into this ultra camp persona and mince about flamboyantly, air kissing and using smutty innuendo towards everyone but then later away from work the campness would have mysteriously disappeared...
I don't actually think my argument is ridiculous at all... Straight people don't go about saying they are proud to be straight and feel the need to brag about it so why do gays? I think it is the ones that feel they need to brag about it that are actually uncortable with themselves..
BTW I am not on here dissing gays or condoning homophobia in any way at all... In my opinion , the world would be a pretty dull place if we were all the same..
Straight people don't go about saying they are proud to be straight and feel the need to brag about it so why do gays?
Because typically, in my world, straight people don't come under fire a whole lot and gay people do? Maybe things are different in yours.
What about females? How do women here feel about seeing two women together?
Because typically, in my world, straight people don't come under fire a whole lot? Maybe they do in yours.
No, they don't in my world either but then neither do gay people... There will alway be people who can't accept something that doesn't fall within their narrow minded ideas but that applies to a lot more than just homophobia..
I think many gay people seem to have a chip on their shoulder and feel more persecuted than they actually are...
No, they don't in my world either but then neither do gay people... There will alway be people who can't accept something that doesn't fall within their narrow minded ideas but that applies to a lot more than just homophobia..
I think many gay people seem to have a chip on their shoulder and feel more persecuted than they actually are...
I think you have a chip on your shoulder, to be honest. To deny that there is a large degree of mistrust, fear and anger towards gay people in the world is just plain daft, and wholly absurd. It's like people who assume racism no longer exists just because we have black people on d'telly.
A lot of people still hate them. A lot of people still don't understand them. A lot of people are still ashamed of them. And thus, from that, the gay pride element emerges.
To coin a phrase : ''Go figure''.
I think you have a chip on your shoulder, to be honest. To deny that there is a large degree of mistrust, fear and anger towards gay people in the world is just plain daft, and wholly absurd. It's like people who assume racism no longer exists just because we have black people on d'telly.
A lot of people still hate them. A lot of people still don't understand them. A lot of people are still ashamed of them. And thus, from that, the gay pride element emerges.
To coin a phrase : ''Go figure''.
Why would I have a chip on my shoulder? I am not denying there is homophobia but my original point was that just because straight males feel some discomfort on seeing two men kissing etc does not mean that they are homophobic. I'm not saying it's right and I'm not saying being gay is wrong but I think some gay people need to get over themselves, accept what they are and stop giving a sh!t what other people think..
BGT-FAN!
07-11-2009, 03:11 PM
Sterotypes in the media, e.g Jack form will and grace, chris crocker, graham norton etc etc
Why would I have a chip on my shoulder? I am not denying there is homophobia but my original point was that just because straight males feel some discomfort on seeing two men kissing etc does not mean that they are homophobic. I'm not saying it's right and I'm not saying being gay is wrong but I think some gay people need to get over themselves, accept what they are and stop giving a sh!t what other people think..
You have a chip on your shoulder because watching them give visible displays of pride, which they are entitled to, bothers you.
Simple.
You have a chip on your shoulder because watching them give visible displays of pride, which they are entitled to, bothers you.
Simple.
What? Where exactly have I said that? Nothing much bothers me to be honest... including gays!
I think we will have to agree to disagree over this one. I think you have misunderstood me slightly. I personally have absolutely nothing against gay people but I think they should accept that not everyone does accept them and just get on with it.. I am not condoning violence, hatred or aggresion towards them but I can see why a straight male feels uncomfortable seeing two men together. That's all..
What? Where exactly have I said that? Nothing much bothers me to be honest... including gays!
I think we will have to agree to disagree over this one. I think you have misunderstood me slightly. I personally have absolutely nothing against gay people but I think they should accept that not everyone does accept them and just get on with it.. I am not condoning violence, hatred or aggresion towards them but I can see why a straight male feels uncomfortable seeing two men together. That's all..
I know your not condoning those things, but you have said repeatedly and have made it quiet clear that gay's who are over the top with displaying the fact that they are gay annoy you and that you feel it is unnecessary.
So once again, with feeling,
A lot of people still hate them. A lot of people still don't understand them. A lot of people are still ashamed of them. And thus, from that, the gay pride element emerges.
To coin a phrase : ''Go figure''.
Don't get me wrong, I know your not homophobic and I know you don't condone homophobia. That's all cool.
I can see why a straight male feels uncomfortable seeing two men together.
And that is homophobia. Like it or not. A very, very, very small condition of homophobia, I will grant you, but it's still there. If I were 'uncomfortable' being outdoors in social situations I would be a bit of an agoraphobic. There are different kinds of homophobia. They don't all go around chucking nail bomb's into clubs named after tools.
Lauren
07-11-2009, 08:29 PM
What about females? How do women here feel about seeing two women together?
I don't feel anything? I've probably seen it and not thought twice about it. I'm honestly not THAT arsed where people put their bits to be perfectly honest.
I don't feel anything?
****.
All bets are off, lads. Put your cameras and dicks away.
Lauren
07-11-2009, 08:32 PM
****.
All bets are off, lads. Put your cameras and dicks away.
Bahahaha!
I know your not condoning those things, but you have said repeatedly and have made it quiet clear that gay's who are over the top with displaying the fact that they are gay annoy you and that you feel it is unnecessary.
So once again, with feeling,
Don't get me wrong, I know your not homophobic and I know you don't condone homophobia. That's all cool.
And that is homophobia. Like it or not. A very, very, very small condition of homophobia, I will grant you, but it's still there. If I were 'uncomfortable' being outdoors in social situations I would be a bit of an agoraphobic. There are different kinds of homophobia. They don't all go around chucking nail bomb's into clubs named after tools.
And that point is where we disagree... To me, that isn't homophobia but just a natural feeling. Here's a point actually; I know 2 gay men who feel uncomfortable, almost repulsed if they see a straight couple kissing... Is that ok?
And that point is where we disagree... To me, that isn't homophobia but just a natural feeling. Here's a point actually; I know 2 gay men who feel uncomfortable, almost repulsed if they see a straight couple kissing... Is that ok?
Of course not. I have no idea how that argument made it to the internet. Christ.
zotler.
08-11-2009, 12:16 PM
I don't understand how I know a lot of straight men who find homosexual men couples disgusting, whereas they find female homosexual couples 'hot'. Is this just them being a dick? -.-
supernoodles!
08-11-2009, 12:24 PM
I don't understand how I know a lot of straight men who find homosexual men couples disgusting, whereas they find female homosexual couples 'hot'. Is this just them being a dick? -.-
Straight men only find lesbians 'hot' because its basically two of what they are attracted too,there not going to find two gay men attractive because they don`t fancy men.
Straight men only find lesbians 'hot' because its basically two of what they are attracted too,there not going to find two gay men attractive because they don`t fancy men.
But attraction aside it is still hypocritical. They find something morally bankrupt about one and not the other. Being gay is being gay. Don't matter if you are a man or woman.
I find Homophobia very weird... I don't quite understand where it originated. In history homosexuality has been very common, with kings doing it, writers, actors etc. In fact at one point in british history it was though that a man couldn't make love to a woman until a man had shown him how it was done first.
Homophobia is only quite recent. In the past few houndred years. I think it is more of a reflection of the arrogance and stubbornness that plagues society today.
InOne
08-11-2009, 12:43 PM
Sort of off topic. But this song is about a girl who wants sex with a guy but he is gay and feel too ashamed to tell her. Then finds himself jealous when she goes off with someone else.
olP2KvITKSQ
But attraction aside it is still hypocritical. They find something morally bankrupt about one and not the other. Being gay is being gay. Don't matter if you are a man or woman.
It's not hypocritical.. Surely you can understand why a straight man doesn't find gay men attractive? It is natural for a straight man to find two women sexually appealling , the same as it is natural for a gay man to find men attractive.
Shame that if a straight man knew what real life lesbians looked like and not porn star lesbians then they wouldn't be so attracted.
LemonJam
08-11-2009, 12:54 PM
I think in some cases it's almost a trend.
Some of my friends said they hated gay people but when they knew I was bisexual all that homophobia went away suddenley. They haven't had a problem since (except one, but he's a fat ginger who looks like a butch lesbian anyway)
I think in some cases it's almost a trend.
Some of my friends said they hated gay people but when they knew I was bisexual all that homophobia went away suddenley. They haven't had a problem since (except one, but he's a fat ginger who looks like a butch lesbian anyway)
I think thats the same with most things, Racism and Sexism included. You can say you hate someone for a certain thing but then when you speak to them you forget about it.
It's not hypocritical.. Surely you can understand why a straight man doesn't find gay men attractive? It is natural for a straight man to find two women sexually appealling , the same as it is natural for a gay man to find men attractive.
Yes it is. We are not talking about attraction here. We are talking about the fact that they see nothing wrong with two females doing it but do with two males. Take attraction out of it.
Also, to Fom's point, yes, being gay was romanticized in plenty of ancient cultures.
Crimson Dynamo
08-11-2009, 03:55 PM
i read recently that poor father, adult male relationships when young can lead to being homosexual as you try to compensate when reaching puberty. interesting take, especailly combined with the dominant female theory.
i read recently that poor father, adult male relationships when young can lead to being homosexual as you try to compensate when reaching puberty. interesting take, especailly combined with the dominant female theory.
I am strongly with the idea that you are born with a sexuality, you might not express it until later but if you are clearly gay then I think you are always meant to be. I think with people that are bisexual in nature... then your life can influence what you are maybe... you naturally get people who are more open with their sexuality than others.
Crimson Dynamo
08-11-2009, 04:20 PM
I am strongly with the idea that you are born with a sexuality, you might not express it until later but if you are clearly gay then I think you are always meant to be. I think with people that are bisexual in nature... then your life can influence what you are maybe... you naturally get people who are more open with their sexuality than others.
No I think the other. We are all born normally hetrosexual and nurture plays its role.
30stone
08-11-2009, 04:22 PM
No I think the other. We are all born normally hetrosexual and nurture plays its role.
Same, i dont believe the "born gay" thing.
No I think the other. We are all born normally hetrosexual and nurture plays its role.
I don't think we are born anything. I think the first 3 or so years are crucial
Jack_
08-11-2009, 04:26 PM
I don't think we are born anything. I think the first 3 or so years are crucial
I agree. We know nothing about the world so as far as we're concerned we could be anything.
Crimson Dynamo
08-11-2009, 04:35 PM
I agree. We know nothing about the world so as far as we're concerned we could be anything.
does that not really tie in with genetics and evolution?
Crimson Dynamo
08-11-2009, 04:36 PM
By the way has anyone witnessed any homophobia directed to a gay person (who heard and was there) in the last say 3 months?
30stone
08-11-2009, 04:38 PM
By the way has anyone witnessed any homophobia directed to a gay person (who heard and was there) in the last say 3 months?
No did at school though lol.
By the way has anyone witnessed any homophobia directed to a gay person (who heard and was there) in the last say 3 months?
Yes. Plenty of times.
You can give up now. This is getting tiring.
Crimson Dynamo
08-11-2009, 05:33 PM
Yes. Plenty of times.
You can give up now. This is getting tiring.
for your plenty of times I give you the vast majority who never do.
for your plenty of times I give you the vast majority who never do.
Homophobia exists. That is a statistical fact. You cannot argue with statistics. If you want to build a ship with the ability to compress space and time and alternate your own reality, then yes, you might be able to argue with statistical facts, but here on planet earth where I live, in this reality, that is simply not possible.
To say the majority of people never witness homophobia is like saying the MAJORITY of people are never involved in a robbery. It's true, but robbery still happens.
Funnily, just like homophobia.
Crimson Dynamo
08-11-2009, 05:39 PM
Homophobia exists. That is a statistical fact. You cannot argue with statistics. If you want to build a ship with the ability to compress space and time and alternate your own reality, then yes, you might be able to argue with statistical facts, but here on planet earth where I live, in this reality, that is simply not possible.
To say the majority of people never witness homophobia is like saying the MAJORITY of people are never involved in a robbery. It's true, but robbery still happens.
Funnily, just like homophobia.
but who has said it does not exist?
and btw "you cannot argue with statistics"?
:hugesmile:
but who has said it does not exist?
So what is your point then? Or are you just tip toeing around the thread gleefully trying to play down a serious issue like the failed experiment in forum stupidity that you are?
Crimson Dynamo
08-11-2009, 05:49 PM
So what is your point then? Or are you just tip toeing around the thread gleefully trying to play down a serious issue like the failed experiment in forum stupidity that you are?
Seriously, your points can be made without constant childish insults, you just end up chasing your tail and sounding like kevin the teenager..
Firewire
08-11-2009, 05:51 PM
I don't have a problem with gay people.
I have experience people hating me because they think I'm gay when I'm not.
Their loss.
Seriously, your points can be made without constant childish insults, you just end up chasing your tail and sounding like kevin the teenager..
I care. Seriously. Post stupid stuff, get a slagging for being stupid. If you take that to heart it's your problem, not mine. You insult too, as you did in that post, merely in a more subliminal manner. And your really in no position to point out anything to anyone as you appear to have no point whatsover yourself!
Kate..
08-11-2009, 05:54 PM
I think it's a big mixture of things, mostly that we are brought up into this world as a "straight community" biologically we are made to "mate" with the opposite sex, as do animals so that is why people think it is "unnatural" to be homosexual.
Crimson Dynamo
08-11-2009, 05:56 PM
I care. Seriously. Post stupid stuff, get a slagging for being stupid. If you take that to heart it's your problem, not mine. You insult too, as you did in that post, merely in a more subliminal manner. And your really in no position to point out anything to anyone as you appear to have no point whatsover yourself!
i will take that as "taken on board"
ta:spin:
i will take that as "taken on board"
ta:spin:
LeatherTrumpet making abstract, false patronization in lieu of making any rational point? Well drug me up and call me Nancy, I am just shocked to the core.
I really, really hope your a young'un. Otherwise this is quiet worrying.
Beastie
08-11-2009, 06:05 PM
Homophobia still exists but not as much as it used to.
Jack_
08-11-2009, 06:06 PM
Homophobia still exists but not as much as it used to.
Yep, but as you said it still exists.
The point of the thread is why did/does it exist in the first place?
Yes it is. We are not talking about attraction here. We are talking about the fact that they see nothing wrong with two females doing it but do with two males. Take attraction out of it.
Also, to Fom's point, yes, being gay was romanticized in plenty of ancient cultures.
I think you're generalising straight males slightly... Not all males think of men together as morally wrong, but because they are straight, the though of men together is not appealing.
30stone
08-11-2009, 06:39 PM
Its exists because people dont agree with man on man and woman on woman love making, for various reasons.
I think you're generalising straight males slightly... Not all males think of men together as morally wrong, but because they are straight, the though of men together is not appealing.
Yes, in the attraction sense. Obviously a straight male is not going to be sexually attracted to a male on male scene in a seedy DVD. I don't think that needed to be pointed out to anybody, somehow.
Yes, in the attraction sense. Obviously a straight male is not going to be sexually attracted to a male on male scene in a seedy DVD. I don't think that needed to be pointed out to anybody, somehow.
What other sense are you talking about?? Attraction is the basis of all relationships/sex whethe in a gay or straight relationship! I really don't get the point you're trying to make.
"Obviously a straight male is not going to be sexually attracted to a male on male scene in a seedy DVD"?? I didn't point this out, you did, and no you're right it didn't need pointed out.
What other sense are you talking about??
The moral sense. I was mentioning that some straight men see nothing wrong or don't judge lesbians because they find it attractive, but do judge and do hold prejudice towards males for doing the exact same thing.
It's simple, really.
setanta
08-11-2009, 06:59 PM
The moral sense. I was mentioning that some straight men see nothing wrong or don't judge lesbians because they find it attractive, but do judge and do hold prejudice towards males for doing the exact same thing.
It's simple, really.
Yep, I was with you all the way there buddy. People generally respond in disgust more often to the idea of two men showing affection than they do at the thought of two women getting it on.
Wildcat!
08-11-2009, 07:04 PM
The moral sense. I was mentioning that some straight men see nothing wrong or don't judge lesbians because they find it attractive, but do judge and do hold prejudice towards males for doing the exact same thing.
It's simple, really.
As far as judging, I dont agree! I think male that judge lesbians, for their sexuality, judge Homosexuals, the same. Of course they are still more enclined to the gay female, visually! But like someone else said, thats just because they see the really attractive female lesbians on videos. If they were judging by whats real (me included:shocked:), they would definitely feel diferently.
but they would still look down on both, in everyday life situations. Without them doing it! :)
As far as judging, I dont agree! I think male that judge lesbians, for their sexuality, judge Homosexuals, the same. Of course they are still more enlined to the gay female, visually! But like someone else said, thats just because they see the really attractive female lesbians on videos. If they were judging by whats real (me included:shocked:), they would definitely feel diferrently.
That's a sweeping statement. You cant just speak for everyone like that. Certain males bear no grudges against lesbians but do with gay males.
setanta
08-11-2009, 07:06 PM
Nah wildcat, I know even some girls who have a kinda kneejerk reaction to seeing any boys kissing whereas with lesbians they don't get the same kinda icky feeling. Obviously generalizing here but yeah, I usually see different attitudes involved.
Wildcat!
08-11-2009, 07:09 PM
That's a sweeping statement. You cant just speak for everyone like that. Certain males bear no grudges against lesbians but do with gay males.
Nah wildcat, I know even some girls who have a kinda kneejerk reaction to seeing any boys kissing whereas with lesbians they don't get the same kinda icky feeling. Obviously generalizing here but yeah, I usually see different attitudes involved.
Alright, fair enough. If yall have experienced it, then maybe there is a truth to it. 2 experiences, bets my one.
The moral sense. I was mentioning that some straight men see nothing wrong or don't judge lesbians because they find it attractive, but do judge and do hold prejudice towards males for doing the exact same thing.
It's simple, really.
Yes, I'll agree with that.. Some straight men probably do, however not all of them. You seem to think that every straight man has a problem with gay men, but that's just not the case. Yes, some men hate/fear/are disgusted by gay men, others understand, but don't want it rubbed in their face and others are completely comfortable with the whole thing. What do you want? Do you want every straight male to announce their love for gay men? I can tell you that will never happen. In an ideal world everybody would live in peace in harmony and everybody would love everybody, but this isn't an ideal world I'm afraid and there are always going to be people with silly prejudicies! Some people will always have something against gays, blacks, muslims, fat people, Scottish people, English people, Germans, old people, ginger people... the list is endless. As I said before, people just need to get on with things, enjoy life and not give a toss what other people think of them!
Wildcat!
08-11-2009, 07:22 PM
Yes, I'll agree with that.. Some straight men probably do, however not all of them. You seem to think that every straight man has a problem with gay men, but that's just not the case. Yes, some men hate/fear/are disgusted by gay men, others understand, but don't want it rubbed in their face and others are completely comfortable with the whole thing. What do you want? Do you want every straight male to announce their love for gay men? I can tell you that will never happen. In an ideal world everybody would live in peace in harmony and everybody would love everybody, but this isn't an ideal world I'm afraid and there are always going to be people with silly prejudicies! Some people will always have something against gays, blacks, muslims, fat people, Scottish people, English people, Germans, old people, ginger people... the list is endless. As I said before, people just need to get on with things, enjoy life and not give a toss what other people think of them!
I really agree with this whole post!
Yep, I was with you all the way there buddy. People generally respond in disgust more often to the idea of two men showing affection than they do at the thought of two women getting it on.
I'm going to have to put this quite bluntly; For a straight man, watching two women together = hard dick. Watching two men together = soft!
You seem to think that every straight man has a problem with gay men
Sorry dear but ... what exactly are you arguing? Quote me where I said that, please. And don't give me some poor ''that's the impression I get'' reply because that's certainly not the impression I am giving if you learn to read my posts properly. I always say some men. Some. Some. Some. Some. Hammer it in there.
I'm going to have to put this quite bluntly; For a straight man, watching two women together = hard dick. Watching two men together = soft!
I am sure Setanta is aware of that, somehow. Again like me he is talking about moral acceptability, not attractiveness. Learn to read.
As I said before, people just need to get on with things, enjoy life and not give a toss what other people think of them!
They can still be proud of it and fight for there cause. Whats your problem with that? People fight for causes to make things better. It happens. Do you think blacks, gay's and women would have the rights they do now if nobody questioned anything and nobody fighted?
Christ almighty.
Sorry dear but ... what exactly are you arguing? Quote me where I said that, please. And don't give me some poor ''that's the impression I get'' reply because that's certainly not the impression I am giving if you learn to read my posts properly. I always say some men. Some. Some. Some. Some. Hammer it in there.
I am sure Setanta is aware of that, somehow. Again like me he is talking about moral acceptability, not attractiveness. Learn to read.
They can still be proud of it and fight for there cause. Whats your problem with that? People fight for causes to make things better. It happens. Do you think blacks, gay's and women would have the rights they do now if nobody questioned anything and nobody fighted?
Christ almighty.
I'm sorry too "dear".. I didn't realise I was arguing with a teenager. I can assure you I can read very well, and what I read from your posts is that you have a bigger problem than most of the straight men I know. I'll maybe continue this argument with you in a few years when you have managed to get over yourself and experienced life a bit.
I didn't realise I was arguing with a teenager.
So you offer up no counter argument merely judge me by age? Nice save. Pick that egg off your face. Still cant find that quote where I said ALL straight males have a problem? Still cant understand why gay people are still fighting for acceptance? Still don't understand the difference between sexual attraction and moral approval? Pity.
Iyou have a bigger problem than most of the straight men I know..
Which is?
I also like how you assume I am gay...
setanta
08-11-2009, 07:45 PM
Do you know what suddenly occured to me too in regard to how people have different attitudes towards lesbians and gays? Have you ever heard some girls saying they've turned gay because they just can't deal with guys anymore whereas with gay men I've never heard the same reasoning behind it - for them it's usually something that they can't deny. It's almost as if lesbianism is more acceptable in today's age, but with men the same kind of joking attitude can't be attached to their sexuality. Just a thought and kinda plays into what we're discussing about how they're viewed differently.
zotler.
08-11-2009, 07:48 PM
Maybe I didn't make myself clear in the post, but on more than one occasion different men (Not all! I have spoken to men who are comfortable with the whole thing) have said to me how they think it is disgusting for men to be homosexual because they think it is wrong but they think it's okay for women simply because it turns them on. Happyland, you can't say it's okay because it's not all about sexual attraction, they just generally think that homosexual men are disgusting. Although I have yet to meet a woman who finds homosexual women 'wrong' and homosexual men 'right'
they think it is disgusting for men to be homosexual because they think it is wrong but they think it's okay for women simply because it turns them on.
This is exactly the point I have been trying to make.
So you offer up no counter argument merely judge me by age? Nice save. Pick that egg off your face. Still cant find that quote where I said ALL straight males have a problem? Still cant understand why gay people are still fighting for acceptance? Still don't understand the difference between sexual attraction and moral approval? Pity.
Which is?
I also like how you assume I am gay...
There is no counter argument really.. I'm a bit bored to be honest.
I'll quickly summarise my points and then I am going to say no more on the subject as this could go on for a very long time..
My original point was that some straight men do not have a problem with gays as such, but do feel uncomfortable seeing men together and in my opinion, this is NOT homophobia. You think it IS homophobia so we'll agree to disagree on that one...
Gay rights etc have come a long long way over the past few decades and yes, I agree that there is still an element of homophobia within society but that is never going to be completely eradicated, no matter how much you fight. I do realise that blacks and women have fought for theit rights but on the same note, there is still racism/sexism in the world and again, there alweays will be!
My main point is that life is short and people whether gay or straight or whatever should get on with enjoying life and forget about what other people may (or may not) be saying about them.
I appreciate your pity but honestly I don't need it.. I am confident and secure in myself so there is no need for your patronising pity...
Of course there is still racism and sexism in the world, just like homophobia, but look how far we have come so far with the fighting. And naturally, given the past, we can safely say that with continued fighting, acceptance of minorities will grow. Not sure about you but for me, it's worth the fight.
''Life is short, enjoy it'' is not really an argument so much as it is a last ditch attempt to salvage something that may have once resembled an argument. I am sure gay people don't spend there entire lives fighting. There are twenty four hours in a day. They don't spend it all marching. Just like you don't spend it all on an internet forum talking to strangers.
Of course there is still racism and sexism in the world, just like homophobia, but look how far we have come so far with the fighting. And naturally, given the past, we can safely say that with continued fighting, acceptance of minorities will grow. Not sure about you but for me, it's worth the fight.
''Life is short, enjoy it'' is not really an argument so much as it is a last ditch attempt to salvage something that may have once resembled an argument. I am sure gay people don't spend there entire lives fighting. There are twenty four hours in a day. They don't spend it all marching. Just like you don't spend it all on an internet forum talking to strangers.
That last line made me lol.... :laugh:
Sure have enjoyed debating with you.. I'm sure we will do it again someday!
As far as judging, I dont agree! I think male that judge lesbians, for their sexuality, judge Homosexuals, the same. Of course they are still more enclined to the gay female, visually! But like someone else said, thats just because they see the really attractive female lesbians on videos. If they were judging by whats real (me included:shocked:), they would definitely feel diferently.
but they would still look down on both, in everyday life situations. Without them doing it! :)
Two butch lesbians in dungarees and Doc Martins in real life are slightly different to hot models in porn :(
I know I said I wasn't going to say any more on the subject, but I was thinking earlier and came up with quite a good example to back up my argument that straight men who feel uncomfortable seeing men together, don't necessarily find it wrong and aren't therefore homophobic... I cringe when i think of very old people/my mum/my neighbours having sex ; I know it's not wrong for them to be doing it but still I tend not to like thinking about it. Do you know where I am coming from??
InOne
08-11-2009, 11:55 PM
I know I said I wasn't going to say any more on the subject, but I was thinking earlier and came up with quite a good example to back up my argument that straight men who feel uncomfortable seeing men together, don't necessarily find it wrong and aren't therefore homophobic... I cringe when i think of very old people/my mum/my neighbours having sex ; I know it's not wrong for them to be doing it but still I tend not to like thinking about it. Do you know where I am coming from??
Yes, dear.
Yes, dear.
I'm glad sweetie.
InOne
09-11-2009, 12:00 AM
I'm glad sweetie.
You are a good debater! Was always going to be a tricky topic lol
*mazedsalv**
09-11-2009, 12:05 AM
I never come across homophobia. In what form does the op mean? 1-5% of the UK is classed as homosexual so it must be few and far between. (although because of the bias towards tv entertainment it seems like higher)
Im positive that in the past 4 years, the % has gone from about 5% to about 10%(Ive heard this somehwere), which is actually more believable, judghing by TV shows, films, documentary, and reality, it seems that being gay is more common now... but im not sure if 10% is completely correct... thats 1 in 10 people!
However the % of hompphobic people have halved, I guess people will be less homophobic if there are more gay people as there will be less of a minority.
You are a good debater! Was always going to be a tricky topic lol
Why thank you... I think it's a topic with no proper answer. Live and let live though and all that shennanigans! :)
InOne
09-11-2009, 12:06 AM
Why thank you... I think it's a topic with no proper answer. Live and let live though and all that shennanigans! :)
Indeed! But good points made by all. Everyone see's everything different really, which is the good thing about debate.
Indeed! But good points made by all. Everyone see's everything different really, which is the good thing about debate.
Yip.. if we all saw things the same, life would be dull and there would be no such thing as debate! :)
Crimson Dynamo
09-11-2009, 09:23 AM
Im positive that in the past 4 years, the % has gone from about 5% to about 10%(Ive heard this somehwere), which is actually more believable, judghing by TV shows, films, documentary, and reality, it seems that being gay is more common now... but im not sure if 10% is completely correct... thats 1 in 10 people!
However the % of hompphobic people have halved, I guess people will be less homophobic if there are more gay people as there will be less of a minority.
I do not think you are correct.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/oct/14/suspected-homophobic-attack-victim-dies
Homophobic crimes have increased by almost 14%, an extra 39 offences, since April in the Metropolitan police area, and there has also been an increase nationally.
Homophobic attacks have already claimed two lives in London in the past year. Gerry Edwards, 59, was stabbed to death at his flat in Bromley, south-east London, in March. His long-term partner also suffered stab wounds.
In November 2008, David Cooper, 28, was beaten to death at his flat in Woolwich, south-east London. He had been drinking in Soho the night before his murder.
Crimson Dynamo
09-11-2009, 09:56 AM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/oct/14/suspected-homophobic-attack-victim-dies
But is that just an increase in people reporting hc.?
and also putting a statistic across and then underneath 2 very serious incidents tends to suggest that they are the norm, which may be misleading.
I wonder what "homophobic crime" entails, are most verbal or are most physical etc..?
putting a statistic across and then underneath 2 very serious incidents tends to suggest that they are the norm, which may be misleading.
No it would not. It would only suggest it as the norm to idiots who cannot read and cannot understand context. You seem to be the only one making that suggestion. It's funny how defensive you reacted to the article when it was not directed at anybody and was merely posted to prove the seriousness and severity of some homophobic attacks that still occur in this day and age, not spark a debate.
BB_Eye
09-11-2009, 03:54 PM
It's funny because the ancient Greeks had a reputation for being very "gay-friendly", but ancient Greece was also the origin of sodomy laws, which owed a lot to the influence of Plato and Aristotle. Slaves in the ancient world were forced to abide by different laws than aristocrats. As we know, slave culture was the origin of Judaeo-Christian religion, which, being egalitarian in nature, saught to apply to everyone the laws which governed the actions of slaves and which excluded them from the privileged, sexually promiscuous lifestyle enjoyed by the chosen few... I would imagine this had a lot to do with the lack of democracy in the middle ages.
Personally, I think the pederasty (which is embodied in the dominant older male and subissive youngster) that defined the culture of ancient Greece and the revival of classical sensibilities during the Italian Renaissance (which, although a golden age for the arts and sciences, was a notoriously tyrranical era for both Italian politics and the Catholic Church) needs to be disassociated from homosexuality. I find this Ancient Greek model carries with it sinister overtones of child abuse and brings to mind notorious figures such as the artist Caravaggio who was both a murderer and a paedophile who peddled homoerotic images of young boys to church officials.
With all of this in mind and Christians, Muslims, working class communities and most cultures with a history of being oppressed by European colonialists, it's easier to understand why homosexuality is so badly misinterpreted.
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