Swiss Voters Ban Minarets

[arista]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/11/29/article-0-07660601000005DC-212_468x300.jpg
Campaign poster: Justice Minister
Eveline Widmer-Schlumpf said the
outcome of the vote reflected a fear of Islamic fundamentalism

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1231854/Voters-ready-ban-minarets-Switzerland-exit-polls-show.html#ixzz0YKlTZNTD

"Referendum...Referendum...????
Whats that then?
Well done the Swiss....Way to go
- Tony, Buckingham, 29/11/2009"

Taken from that site.

"Swiss voters have backed a ban on building minarets
at the country's mosques - in a shock move
the government warned could play into the hands of extremists. "



Nothing Extreme here
they have 4 of those places - they are lucky to have them
in Switzerland.
At least this was a Public Vote on this.




Sign Of The Times.

[WOMBAI]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/11/29/article-0-07660601000005DC-212_468x300.jpg
Campaign poster: Justice Minister
Eveline Widmer-Schlumpf said the
outcome of the vote reflected a fear of Islamic fundamentalism

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1231854/Voters-ready-ban-minarets-Switzerland-exit-polls-show.html#ixzz0YKlTZNTD

"Referendum...Referendum...????
Whats that then?
Well done the Swiss....Way to go
- Tony, Buckingham, 29/11/2009"

Taken from that site.

"Swiss voters have backed a ban on building minarets
at the country's mosques - in a shock move
the government warned could play into the hands of extremists. "



Nothing Extreme here
they have 4 of those places - they are lucky to have them
in Switzerland.
At least this was a Public Vote on this.




Sign Of The Times.

Saw something about this on the news last week. Decision hadn't been made at that point. Glad that the Swiss people have stood up to be counted in order to protect their country's heritage. I completely agree with their decision.

I dare say this may just provide the extremists with yet another excuse to vent their vile hatred of the West - but people cannot bow down to their threats and intimidation by not voting for the ban! Well done the Swiss!:dance:

[Wildcat!]

I dont get it! Whats the problem with a minaret?

[Niamh.]

I dont get it! Whats the problem with a minaret?

What is a Minaret?

[arista]

What is a Minaret?


The Muslim Spike on there buildings.

[arista]

I dont get it! Whats the problem with a minaret?


It Ain't a Muslim Nation
its not Saudi Arabia it is Switzerland

[Wildcat!]

What is a Minaret?

MOst mosques have a vertical structure with a crescent on top

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z36/AlecRawls/Uppsala_Mosque_Sweden55.jpg

Iam baffled as to where the problem is! :conf:

[Wildcat!]

It Ain't a Muslim Nation
its not Saudi Arabia it is Switzerland

I wasnt expeting a robot answer. Rather a real one, since you are on the serious debate section.
They didnt ban mosques, just the minaret. What is the problem with it? Do you know what the issue is? I assume you do, since you posted it.

[Niamh.]

MOst mosques have a vertical structure with a crescent on top

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z36/AlecRawls/Uppsala_Mosque_Sweden55.jpg

Iam baffled as to where the problem is! :conf:

Incase they take them down and use them as weapons??? lol

yeah, I'm with you there!:conf:

[Wildcat!]

Incase they take them down and use them as weapons??? lol

yeah, I'm with you there!:conf:



OK, I went and got some infos on this. As I expected, the OP, dont have no idea what the issue is. Probably just posted this because he read it somewhere, without even knowing why!

Anyways, apparently, the Swiss People's Party labeled minarets as symbols of rising Muslim political power that could one day transform Switzerland into an Islamic nation. To begin with they got 100,000 signatures to hold a referendum on the issue by using scare tactics. Then they posted banners all over Switzerland which showed minarets as missiles rising from the Swiss flag next to a fully veiled woman.

And get this, there are whole of 3 mosque with minarets on them in the whole Switzerland!! YEah, very scary. WHat in the hell is Europe coming to!

Tragically, this is the kind of over the top stupid anti islamic actions, that incite even stupider extremists to do something drastic. Oh well.

[Niamh.]

OK, I went and got some infos on this. As I expected, the OP, dont have no idea what the issue is. Probably just posted this because he read it somewhere, without even knowing why!

Anyways, apparently, the Swiss People's Party labeled minarets as symbols of rising Muslim political power that could one day transform Switzerland into an Islamic nation. To begin with they got 100,000 signatures to hold a referendum on the issue by using scare tactics. Then they posted banners all over Switzerland which showed minarets as missiles rising from the Swiss flag next to a fully veiled woman.

And get this, there are whole of 3 mosque with minarets on them in the whole Switzerland!! YEah, very scary. WHat in the hell is Europe coming to!

Tragically, this is the kind of over the top stupid anti islamic actions, that incite even stupider extremists to do something drastic. Oh well.


I'm not a religious person but I have no problem with people who are as long as they don't try to force it on me or anyone else. I really don't see what the problem is with Minarets and I don't see why anyone else would either:conf:

[30stone]

If they allow mosques then why not allow minarets.

You'd think they would just not have mosques if they were that worried.

[Wildcat!]

I'm not a religious person but I have no problem with people who are as long as they don't try to force it on me or anyone else. I really don't see what the problem is with Minarets and I don't see why anyone else would either:conf:

Same for me. I am muslim, but not a very religious person either. I smoke and drink, and I dont remember the last time Ive been to a mosque :o , but this is one of the most blatant islamophobia thing I have ever seen.
And its hilarious when I read statements like, they dont have churhs in muslim countries. IN my country which is 95% muslims, there are more than 10 churches, in the capital city alone. As a matter of fact, the cathedral, is the biggest religious structure in whole of Dakar and is right in the middle of the city.

http://en.structurae.de/files/photos/wikipedia/Dakar_cathedrale.jpg

I wonder what would happen if they banned the minarets on that!

[Stu]

Good on them. God forbid they see a minaret in the sky and suddenly forget they are Swiss and are living in Switzerland.

Is this news story real? Seriously? How bored are the Swiss government? They remind me of the Australian government, who are so busy at various world affairs they managed to ban adults from playing Left 4 Dead 2.

[arista]

If they allow mosques then why not allow minarets.

You'd think they would just not have mosques if they were that worried.


Because it is not part of the Swiss way.
4 is enough
the public there have Voted.

[Stu]

Because it is not part of the Swiss way.
4 is enough
the public there have Voted.
Neither is Buddhism. Or Taoism. Or Satanism. Or 90% of their popular musical acts. Or most of the television they get. Should we ban all them too? Should we ban all outside culture HERE too? After all, that DOES seem to be your logic.

Is that Hulk picutre in your avatar a British creation?

[Wildcat!]

Because it is not part of the Swiss way.
4 is enough
the public there have Voted.

That shouldnt have been up for a vote in the first place. And I am gonna give you some logic, although I doubt you will see it, but I'll give it a try. The only reason that referendum passed, with 50 something percent I thing, is because the only people who bothered to vote for it, are the once who want it banned, and the muslims probably. Most people wouldnt care, so they wont even bother voting. Anything such referendum, usually passes.

[Stu]

That shouldnt have been up for a vote in the first place. And I am gonna give you some logic, although I doubt you will see it, but I'll give it a try. The only reason that referendum passed, with 50 something percent I thing, is because the only people who bothered to vote for it, are the once who want it banned, and the muslims probably. Most people wouldnt care, so they wont even bother voting. Anything such referendum, usually passes.
Good point. The angry vote is always the popular vote.

[arista]

That shouldnt have been up for a vote in the first place. And I am gonna give you some logic, although I doubt you will see it, but I'll give it a try. The only reason that referendum passed, with 50 something percent I thing, is because the only people who bothered to vote for it, are the once who want it banned, and the muslims probably. Most people wouldnt care, so they wont even bother voting. Anything such referendum, usually passes.



It is After The Fact
now.


This is not a Muslim Nation
it has many rich Muslims living there
also for Tax reasons Phil Collins (Genesis Rock Band)
lives there.



Life In The Fast Lane.

[arista]

Neither is Buddhism. Or Taoism. Or Satanism. Or 90% of their popular musical acts. Or most of the television they get. Should we ban all them too? Should we ban all outside culture HERE too? After all, that DOES seem to be your logic.

Is that Hulk picutre in your avatar a British creation?


Hulk Image is Property of Marvel Inc.
It Represents me in every way.

[Shaun]

Ridiculous decision - it's the equivalent of banning crosses :\

[Stu]

Hulk Image is Property of Marvel Inc.
It Represents me in every way.
My sincerest thanks to you for missing the point I was trying to put across. What a political stalwart you are.

Go back to massaging your ego, you tired old gimmick. The best thing on this forum with your name on it isin't even your creation.

[arista]

[QUOTE=Shaun;2722935]Ridiculous decision - it's the equivalent of banning crosses :\[/QUOTE

You have it wrong
It is a Design Issue
it will not effect the Muslims there.
They are lucky to have 4 of them now.

[Stu]

It is a Design Issue

Of course it is, sure the next refferendum is going to be if potted plants outside the embassies are a good idea :rolleyes:.

[WOMBAI]

People in Switzerland object for many reasons. Those objections include concerns that if enough minerets go up in the country - eventually the skyline of Switzerland will make it look like an islamic country - which it is not! There are also concerns that it is the start of a slippery slope which will lead to other demands by Muslims such as the call of the muezzin (which calls Muslims to prayer). Switzerland is not a Muslim country - there is nothing wrong with the Swiss people wanting to protect their culture by objecting to certain practices by other religions that could be seen to jeopardize their way of life.

The minaret "is a political symbol against integration; a symbol more of segregation, and first of all, a symbol to try to introduce Sharia law parallel to Swiss rights,".

"When you look at the European Union, where are there extremists?" asked Schluer. "In the suburbs and ghetto banlieues of Paris and London. . . . We don't want that in Switzerland."

He said Muslims were welcome in Switzerland but must assimilate into Swiss society.

[Stu]

I am pretty confident in my way of life to the extent that seing a symbol in the sky does not crush my soul and destroy my sense of identity. I suppose for other people it's different.

[Z]

I am pretty confident in my way of life to the extent that seing a symbol in the sky does not crush my soul and destroy my sense of identity. I suppose for other people it's different.

I agree. I can only assume that there were some kind of plans brought to the Swiss government to build more mosques and they flipped out over it - to come up with that kind of legislation out of the blue is baffling.

[Wildcat!]

I agree. I can only assume that there were some kind of plans brought to the Swiss government to build more mosques and they flipped out over it - to come up with that kind of legislation out of the blue is baffling.

NO, the government is against it. ANd urged the people to not ban the minaret, because it will cause religious extremism. But htey had no choice, because it was a petition that got 100, 000 signatures (which is really easy to have about any issue). Its just a stupid fear generated idea. Islamophobia pure and simple. Its like if the indians thought the Taj Mahal is a symbol of oppression. Its simply somthing that was brought on by their version of the BnP. But they put in the referendum, which of course passed, because most normal people wouldnt bother about such trivial things as a minaret, which is only used as decorative nowadays in most mosques.

[WOMBAI]

NO, the government is against it. ANd urged the people to not ban the minaret, because it will cause religious extremism. But htey had no choice, because it was a petition that got 100, 000 signatures (which is really easy to have about any issue). Its just a stupid fear generated idea. Islamophobia pure and simple. Its like if the indians thought the Taj Mahal is a symbol of oppression. Its simply somthing that was brought on by their version of the BnP. But they put in the referendum, which of course passed, because most normal people wouldnt bother about such trivial things as a minaret, which is only used as decorative nowadays in most mosques.

If the minaret is only used as decorative nowadays in most mosques - why do Muslims have to make such an issue about having it! What about Muslims trying to meet other cultures half-way for a change - instead of wanting their demands met all the time. And how would a support of the ban in any way justify extremists to what - start bombing more people? Most normal people react to such issues by protests or taking the political or legal route - they don't start murdering people!

And by the way - 57.5% of the Swiss voters is hardly an 'abnormal' minority! Stop deliberately trying to trivialise how a great many people feel! Those concerns exist for good reasons! Maybe some of the things that the Muslim religion stands for - like its oppressive treatment of women and general disregard for human rights might have something to do with why so many are distrustful and hostile towards them. They need to take some responsibility! And please lets not be so boring and predictable as to play the 'race card' again! Just might make me vomit!

[setanta]

Same for me. I am muslim, but not a very religious person either. I smoke and drink, and I dont remember the last time Ive been to a mosque :o , but this is one of the most blatant islamophobia thing I have ever seen.
And its hilarious when I read statements like, they dont have churhs in muslim countries. IN my country which is 95% muslims, there are more than 10 churches, in the capital city alone. As a matter of fact, the cathedral, is the biggest religious structure in whole of Dakar and is right in the middle of the city.


I wonder what would happen if they banned the minarets on that!

You know although I'm all for rights of the individual and freedom to worship whatever the feck you want and I abhor discrimination in any shape or form, I'm actually for once going to go with the Swiss on this one and it's a question of aesthetics and for me, as silly as that sounds.

Cultural diversity is something that we all have to accept at this point but I actually enjoy visiting unique countries and knowing the historical importance and individuality of each and every state I'm in, with the wide and varied architecture that's found all over the world. I simply look on things like this as somebody asking for planning permission and it not being granted because it might be a permanent eyesore, that will not compliment the buildings already in place.

And before you accuse me of racism, which I'm totally against, I just believe that it's a beautiful thing to admire a state for it's rich culture and beauty - I don't want every city looking the fecking same. And Wildcat, if your country is comprised of 95% muslims then of course they should build their places of worship and I would love to visit them myself, but in Switzerland they are about 4% of the population. Prepare for the backlash... brace yourself James.

[Niamh.]

You know although I'm all for rights of the individual and freedom to worship whatever the feck you want and I abhor discrimination in any shape or form, I'm actually for once going to go with the Swiss on this one and it's a question of aesthetics and for me, as silly as that sounds.

Cultural diversity is something that we all have to accept at this point but I actually enjoy visiting unique countries and knowing the historical importance and individuality of each and every state I'm in, with the wide and varied architecture that's found all over the world. I simply look on things like this as somebody asking for planning permission and it not being granted because it might be a permanent eyesore, that will not compliment the buildings already in place.

And before you accuse me of racism, which I'm totally against, I just believe that it's a beautiful thing to admire a state for it's rich culture and beauty - I don't want every city looking the fecking same. And Wildcat, if your country is comprised of 95% muslims then of course they should build their places of worship and I would love to visit them myself, but in Switzerland they are about 4% of the population. Prepare for the backlash... brace yourself James.


That's a good point actually James, I didn't think of it that way.

[Stu]

If the minaret is only used as decorative nowadays in most mosques - why do Muslims have to make such an issue about having it!
Because it's just a normal design feature of the building as standard. Therefore the ball is firmly in they're court. To reverse your point why are the Swiss making such a big deal of taking it away?

Oh noes, they might forget they are Swiss!

Also, the vast majority of Muslims are not, in fact, terrorists. You ask us not to play the race card, I think it's only fair you don't play the terrorism card.

To Setanta : That's a great point you make but I really don't see how it conflicts with Minarets. Swiss culture and Swiss architecture are not going to dissapear just because there are Minarets in the sky FFS!

[Wildcat!]

You know although I'm all for rights of the individual and freedom to worship whatever the feck you want and I abhor discrimination in any shape or form, I'm actually for once going to go with the Swiss on this one and it's a question of aesthetics and for me, as silly as that sounds.

Cultural diversity is something that we all have to accept at this point but I actually enjoy visiting unique countries and knowing the historical importance and individuality of each and every state I'm in, with the wide and varied architecture that's found all over the world. I simply look on things like this as somebody asking for planning permission and it not being granted because it might be a permanent eyesore, that will not compliment the buildings already in place.

And before you accuse me of racism, which I'm totally against, I just believe that it's a beautiful thing to admire a state for it's rich culture and beauty - I don't want every city looking the fecking same. And Wildcat, if your country is comprised of 95% muslims then of course they should build their places of worship and I would love to visit them myself, but in Switzerland they are about 4% of the population. Prepare for the backlash... brace yourself James.



Errrm, 1. there are 3 mosques with minarets in Switzerland. Esthetics? What the hell do 3 mosques a whole coutry have anything to do with aesthetics?

2. the picture, that i posted, was a church, not a mosque, in a 95% Muslim country. And like I said, its the biggest religious building in the country. So waht are you talking about they should build their places of whorship.

3. No one is banning any other ornaments from any other religion. SO this has nothing to do with culture preservation. Its directed strictly at the muslim

4. They didnt ban mosques, they banned the minaret, and thats the whole point of my comparaison to the churches in other muslim countries. People think muslim= the middle east. Well its not.

[Stu]

Only three? Christ. Unless all the Mosques with Minarets were somehow loaded onto the back of trucks and parked directly outside your hotel window or home in Switzerland - where they would be left parked overnight with Arabic music blaring from soundspeakers mounted onto the back of Camels being manned by Quran touting extremists brandishing scimitars, I really fail to see how it gives the impression that Switzerland is a Muslim country without an identity of it's own.

Again, some people are very, very bored. Mountains out of ****ing molehills.

[Wildcat!]

Because it's just a normal design feature of the building as standard. Therefore the ball is firmly in they're court. To reverse your point why are the Swiss making such a big deal of taking it away?

Oh noes, they might forget they are Swiss!

Also, the vast majority of Muslims are not, in fact, terrorists. You ask us not to play the race card, I think it's only fair you don't play the terrorism card.

To Setanta : That's a great point you make but I really don't see how it conflicts with Minarets. Swiss culture and Swiss architecture are not going to dissapear just because there are Minarets in the sky FFS!

Oh you quoted that poster, I have 3 people on ignore, they are one of them. :). A few people in here, have clear views, that make me want to puke, and feel bad for the human race.
About the MInaret, yeah, its just decorative mostly. NO one climbs up there to call for prayer. Prayer is called inside the mosque, except in certain muslim coutries, and thats only some. There are a lot of mosques in the UK, and you will not see anyone call for prayer in those things.

[setanta]

To Setanta : That's a great point you make but I really don't see how it conflicts with Minarets. Swiss culture and Swiss architecture are not going to dissapear just because there are Minarets in the sky FFS!

I think it does kinda because it's an artistic feature that has great relevance in many countries, but not really in Switzerland you know? It's not a design I would associate with the history of the Swiss and therefore wouldn't compliment the surrounding buildings.

It would be a permanent addition to the skyline and as such, I think it's wise to think long and hard on it. I'd fecking hate to see Gaudi buildings all over the world when I associate them with the lovely city of Barcelona. The other thing is that there's only a 4% Muslim population there so I think they just have to accept it and get on with it. Hate when these things are used as an excuse for aggressive stances and reactions. It's just common sense to me.

[Stu]

I think it does kinda because it's an artistic feature that has great relevance in many countries, but not really in Switzerland you know? It's not a design I would associate with the history of the Swiss and therefore wouldn't compliment the surrounding buildings.

It would be a permanent addition to the skyline and as such, I think it's wise to think long and hard on it. I'd fecking hate to see Gaudi buildings all over the world when I associate them with the lovely city of Barcelona. The other thing is that there's only a 4% Muslim population there so I think they just have to accept it and get on with it. Hate when these things are used as an excuse for aggressive stances and reactions. It's just common sense to me.
But it has relevance to that 4%. And yeah, that's a small minority, but heres the return : so are the Minarets. They aren't going to dominate the skyline! They are just little spots of culture within the greater Swiss culture! I don't see people complaining about Chinatowns, or all the foreign restaurants we have in Dublin city center, I could go on all day with compasison examples here.

Wildcat is right. It really is just a Muslim thing.

Also, I wonder what people make of the image in the first post. You know, the one with the sinister shrouded Muslim against a backdrop of a Swiss flag COVERED in ****ing Minarets. Overkill, much?

[Niamh.]

But it has relevance to that 4%. And yeah, that's a small minority, but heres the return : so are the Minarets. They aren't going to dominate the skyline! They are just little spots of culture within the greater Swiss culture! I don't see people complaining about Chinatowns, or all the foreign restaurants we have in Dublin city center, I could go on all day with compasison examples here.

Wildcat is right. It really is just a Muslim thing.

Also, I wonder what people make of the image in the first post. You know, the one with the sinister shrouded Muslim against a backdrop of a Swiss flag COVERED in ****ing Minarets. Overkill, much?

Yeah those signs looked a bit creepy alright

[Wildcat!]

I think it does kinda because it's an artistic feature that has great relevance in many countries, but not really in Switzerland you know? It's not a design I would associate with the history of the Swiss and therefore wouldn't compliment the surrounding buildings.

It would be a permanent addition to the skyline and as such, I think it's wise to think long and hard on it. I'd fecking hate to see Gaudi buildings all over the world when I associate them with the lovely city of Barcelona. The other thing is that there's only a 4% Muslim population there so I think they just have to accept it and get on with it. Hate when these things are used as an excuse for aggressive stances and reactions. It's just common sense to me.

LMAO! When you think of India, what is the buliding that comes to mind? I dont know about you, but for me, its the Taj Mahal, which is probably the biggest muslim mosoleum in the world, with the biggest minarets. And India, is basically hindu. NOw do you know, why they dont care? Its because they actually see that as a beautiful piece of architecture, not a religious place. As a matter of fact, anyone who really believes in their faith, will only see those buildings fro what they are, just a building. Thats why the cathedral in my country is one of the biggest, and most respected structure in the capital. Those people who think seeing a buliding would influence their faith in any ways shape or form, dont really have much faith.

By the way, Spain has a huge influence of Islamic architecture, in most of their bulidings, if you didnt know that.


And if you dont know what the Taj Mahal is:

http://infinitejest.wallacewiki.com/david-foster-wallace/images/6/62/Taj.jpg


Thank god its not in Switzerland.

[WOMBAI]

Oh you quoted that poster, I have 3 people on ignore, they are one of them. :). A few people in here, have clear views, that make me want to puke, and feel bad for the human race.
About the MInaret, yeah, its just decorative mostly. NO one climbs up there to call for prayer. Prayer is called inside the mosque, except in certain muslim coutries, and thats only some. There are a lot of mosques in the UK, and you will not see anyone call for prayer in those things.

That chip on your shoulder must be getting a bit heavy now! The fact that you are Muslim (even if non-practicising) is very apparent in your very biased views and unfair condemnation of anyone who dares criticise the Muslim religion and culture. I actually find it highly amusing that you have put me on your ignore list - and you talk about overreactions!:joker: Your views are every bit as biased and racist as you are quick to accuse anyone else of being who dares to have opposing views to you.

[setanta]

But it has relevance to that 4%. And yeah, that's a small minority, but heres the return : so are the Minarets. They aren't going to dominate the skyline! They are just little spots of culture within the greater Swiss culture! I don't see people complaining about Chinatowns, or all the foreign restaurants we have in Dublin city center, I could go on all day with compasison examples here.

Wildcat is right. It really is just a Muslim thing.

Also, I wonder what people make of the image in the first post. You know, the one with the sinister shrouded Muslim against a backdrop of a Swiss flag COVERED in ****ing Minarets. Overkill, much?

I agree it's overkill and more than likely a Muslim thing, but I can see the value in being cautious when it comes to this kinda thing.

Hey, and Wildcat is wrong about there only being 3.... there's over 90 now from what I'm reading online.

[setanta]

LMAO! When you think of India, what is the buliding that comes to mind? I dont know about you, but for me, its the Taj Mahal, which is probably the biggest muslim mosoleum in the world, with the biggest minarets. And India, is basically hindu. NOw do you know, why they dont care? Its because they actually see that as a beautiful piece of architecture, not a religious place. As a matter of fact, anyone who really believes in their faith, will only see those buildings fro what they are, just a building. Thats why the cathedral in my country is one of the biggest, and most respected structure in the capital. Those people who think seeing a buliding would influence their faith in any ways shape or form, dont really have much faith.

By the way, Spain has a huge influence of Islamic architecture, in most of their bulidings, if you didnt know that.


And if you dont know what the Taj Mahal is:

http://infinitejest.wallacewiki.com/david-foster-wallace/images/6/62/Taj.jpg


Thank god its not in Switzerland.

You're actually more reactionary then the people who condemn the preachings of Islam, do you know that?

The Taj Mahal has cultural significance in India..... It's been there for over 300 years. You're kinda dull in your condemnation of anyone who likes to have a conversation about these things.

Edit: it's almost 400 hundred bloody years old.

[Wildcat!]

Hey, and Wildcat is wrong about there only being 3.... there's over 90 now from what I'm reading online.

90 really?



(RTTNews) - Sunday, Switzerland voted by a clear majority in a referendum banning the construction of minarets on mosques, which right-wing parties regard as symbols of militant Islam--the first country in Europe to vote to curb the religious practices of Muslims.

The ban was supported by a majority of 57.5%, 20 percentage points more than predicted in opinion polls in the run-up to the vote. The result, in a country that has only four mosques with minarets and no major problems with Islamist militancy, has taken the Swiss establishment by surprise, which was bracing itself for a backlash in the Middle East.

"The federal council (the body that constitutes the federal government) respects this decision," said a government statement Sunday night. "The construction of new minarets in Switzerland is no longer permitted."

The unprecedented victory for the right wing extreme nationalist party, Swiss People's Party (SVP), which has campaigned in previous years against immigrants has stirred fears of strife where there was relative peace. The move is also likely to tarnish the country's image abroad, affect investment and trade with the Muslim countries, and derail efforts to integrate a population of some 400,000 Muslims, most of whom are European Muslims--and non-mosque-goers--from the Balkans.

It needs to be seen if the result contradicts the Swiss constitution, which protects freedom of religion. The result almost certainly put Switzerland at loggerheads with European Court of Human Rights.

The campaign to ban minarets was described by the country's justice minister as a "proxy war" for provoking conflict between ethnic Swiss and Muslim immigrants. The seven-member Cabinet that heads the Swiss government had spoken out strongly against the initiative.

http://news.ino.com/headlines/?newsid=113020090015



Oh I am sorry. 4 not 3
Well! Thats me done with this subject!
I am not gonna change anything anyways.

[setanta]

No 90 Mosques so I don't know why you're getting your knickers in a twist over minarets when they're obviously not crucial to the general look of these places of worship.

[Stu]

I actually find it highly amusing that you have put me on your ignore list - and you talk about overreactions!
What's wrong with that? He obviously finds your views distasteful, whatever the reason why, thus you are on his ignore list. Sounds fairly logical to me. Your the one if anything who is overreacting.

[arista]

If the minaret is only used as decorative nowadays in most mosques - why do Muslims have to make such an issue about having it! What about Muslims trying to meet other cultures half-way for a change - instead of wanting their demands met all the time. And how would a support of the ban in any way justify extremists to what - start bombing more people? Most normal people react to such issues by protests or taking the political or legal route - they don't start murdering people!

And by the way - 57.5% of the Swiss voters is hardly an 'abnormal' minority! Stop deliberately trying to trivialise how a great many people feel! Those concerns exist for good reasons! Maybe some of the things that the Muslim religion stands for - like its oppressive treatment of women and general disregard for human rights might have something to do with why so many are distrustful and hostile towards them. They need to take some responsibility! And please lets not be so boring and predictable as to play the 'race card' again! Just might make me vomit!

Great Points Wombai
Yes they have Not Banned Muslims
the good thing here is the public could vote.

This is the way forward

[Crimson Dynamo]

lol at everyone getting their "outrage knickers" in a twist yet no one knows what the flick they are on about.

I think it would help to have some backstory...

[Stu]

lol at everyone getting their "outrage knickers" in a twist yet no one knows what the flick they are on about.

I think it would help to have some backstory...
Sounds kinky, where can I buy a pair, the PC SuperStore?

[WOMBAI]

What's wrong with that? He obviously finds your views distasteful, whatever the reason why, thus you are on his ignore list. Sounds fairly logical to me. Your the one if anything who is overreacting.

Didn't you pass comment fairly recently when I put you on my ignore list for about 10 minutes (then thought better of it) when you said something along the lines of me not being prepared to debate the issue or something like that. A bit hypocritical don't you think? :joker:

[Crimson Dynamo]

France's far right National Front welcomed the outcome, saying that the "elites should stop denying the aspirations and fears of the European people, who, without opposing religious freedom, reject ostentatious signs that political-religious Muslim groups want to impose."

That kind of encapsulates the issue. I am not saying that it is motivated by love our owt but it may be fact.


I think if Muslims actually had some good PR they may get somewhere. At the mo all we hear is the bad stuff and when the bad stuff happens there is very little condemnation from a spokesperson and so forth

Muslims need Max Clifford and fast.

[Stu]

Didn't you pass comment fairly recently when I put you on my ignore list for about 10 minutes (then thought better of it) when you said something along the lines of me not being prepared to debate the issue or something like that. A bit hypocritical don't you think? :joker:
No, must have me confused with someone else. You never said anything to me about an ignore list.

France's far right National Front
Yeah, far right national fronts don't want to impose anything, do they? :wink:

[Crimson Dynamo]

I must say however that the posters are a touch, how shall i say, provocative?

http://z.about.com/d/middleeast/1/0/J/B/-/-/1027-switzerland-minarets.jpg

[WOMBAI]

No, must have me confused with someone else. You never said anything to me about an ignore list.

It was definitely you! I did put you on my ignore list briefly - although didn't actually tell you that - but you then when on to mention the word ignore in following posts - so I thought you knew!

[Captain.Remy]

The UN has stated its concern about the whole issue asking Switzerland to take it back as it goes against the Human rights. Furthermore, Switzerland has been warned a few days ago but the referendum still went ahead.

I don't know what to think really. Switzerland has always been in a special position in the world, probably the most neutral country so it's rather surprising this went through as they are known for peaceful and calm people.
I kinda agree with them because they don't want minarets to invade their beautiful environment (I've been several times there and to me, Switzerland is one of the most beautiful country) but at the same time, they can't prevent people from praying. S yeah, tough choice.

[Stu]

It was definitely you! I did put you on my ignore list briefly - although didn't actually tell you that - but you then when on to mention the word ignore in following posts - so I thought you knew!
I believe you asked for an argument, and when I gave you one, you complained about it's lenght before deciding you would get back to me on it eventually. We call that a waste of time. Or dodging the points. It's an easy assumption to make love, sorry :wink:.

[WOMBAI]

I believe you asked for an argument, and when I gave you one, you complained about it's lenght before deciding you would get back to me on it eventually. We call that a waste of time. Or dodging the points. It's an easy assumption to make love, sorry :wink:.

Either way it's a totally different scenario to the one you and Wildcat are in thus it is pretty indifferent to the thread, really.

Your interpretation, as usual, love!:joker:

And I find Wildcat's views about many things equally distasteful - so!

[InOne]

The UN has stated its concern about the whole issue asking Switzerland to take it back as it goes against the Human rights. Furthermore, Switzerland has been warned a few days ago but the referendum still went ahead.

I don't know what to think really. Switzerland has always been in a special position in the world, probably the most neutral country so it's rather surprising this went through as they are known for peaceful and calm people.
I kinda agree with them because they don't want minarets to invade their beautiful environment (I've been several times there and to me, Switzerland is one of the most beautiful country) but at the same time, they can't prevent people from praying. S yeah, tough choice.

I'd rather have a beautiful enviroment than people praying. The Country comes first.

[Crimson Dynamo]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/switzerland/6691134/Swiss-minaret-ban-condemned-by-Vatican.html

Pope gets involved.

[Stu]

Your interpretation, as usual, love!:joker:
Of course it's my interpretation. You asked for an argument, I gave you one, and you did not respond. Who else's interpretation is it going to be, sugar pie?

[WOMBAI]

I'd rather have a beautiful enviroment than people praying. The Country comes first.

g

[InOne]

Nobody is preventing them from praying - they are just not allowing them to do it as publicly as they want to. As it is not an Islamic country - they should respect that!

Islamic Respect. Best Oxymoron of the day!!!

[Crimson Dynamo]

Its all that big Lion's fault from Lion Witch Wardrobe, he bloody started the religion yet has little to say about it.

[WOMBAI]

The UN has stated its concern about the whole issue asking Switzerland to take it back as it goes against the Human rights. Furthermore, Switzerland has been warned a few days ago but the referendum still went ahead.

I don't know what to think really. Switzerland has always been in a special position in the world, probably the most neutral country so it's rather surprising this went through as they are known for peaceful and calm people.
I kinda agree with them because they don't want minarets to invade their beautiful environment (I've been several times there and to me, Switzerland is one of the most beautiful country) but at the same time, they can't prevent people from praying. S yeah, tough choice.

Nobody is stopping them from praying - just not allowing them to do so as publicly as they would like. As it is not an Islamic country - they should respect that!

[Stu]

Its all that big Lion's fault from Lion Witch Wardrobe, he bloody started the religion yet has little to say about it.
You leave Aslan out of this :devil:.

[WOMBAI]

Of course it's my interpretation. You asked for an argument, I gave you one, and you did not respond. Who else's interpretation is it going to be, sugar pie?

just not fact, sugar pie!

[WOMBAI]

The UN has stated its concern about the whole issue asking Switzerland to take it back as it goes against the Human rights. Furthermore, Switzerland has been warned a few days ago but the referendum still went ahead.

I don't know what to think really. Switzerland has always been in a special position in the world, probably the most neutral country so it's rather surprising this went through as they are known for peaceful and calm people.
I kinda agree with them because they don't want minarets to invade their beautiful environment (I've been several times there and to me, Switzerland is one of the most beautiful country) but at the same time, they can't prevent people from praying. S yeah, tough choice.

Nobody is preventing them from praying - they are just not allowing them to do it as publicly as they want to. As it is not an Islamic country - they should respect that!

[Stu]

just not fact, sugar pie!
Of course not. But it's the only interpretation I have to go by so far. Still, thank you for point that out. Repetition is your new best friend, darling pumpkin.

[WOMBAI]

Islamic Respect. Best Oxymoron of the day!!!

Please elaborate!

[InOne]

Please elaborate!

It was a half joke lol but we would not get away with half the stuff in a Muslim country as they do in Europe.

[WOMBAI]

It was a half joke lol but we would not get away with half the stuff in a Muslim country as they do in Europe.

Exactly! :dance:

And they wonder why we get annoyed! :joker: Usual double-standards!

[WOMBAI]

Of course not. But it's the only interpretation I have to go by so far. Still, thank you for point that out. Repetition is your new best friend, darling pumpkin.

I love repetition - get lots of it from you!:joker:

[Stu]

I love repetition - get lots of it from you!:joker:
Do elaborate...

[InOne]

Exactly! :dance:

And they wonder why we get annoyed! :joker: Usual double-standards!

Yes because we are soooooooooo ignorant of Islam it MUST be Islamophobia! Because we criticise the Religion we MUST be Racist, yet Muslims are from all over the world and most probably would not want to be put in a nutshell like that.

[WOMBAI]

Do elaborate...

you first!

[Stu]

you first!
And again. Thanks for making this easy :hugesmile:.

[Crimson Dynamo]

"As well as providing a visual cue to a Muslim community, the main function of the minaret is to provide a vantage point from which the call to prayer (adhan) is made."


I think the issue is to do with the height and the dominance in the skyline. The aim in Islamic countries is to be the tallest and most dominant thing on the skyline as it is the most important.

We have this with Churches in the UK, or used to.

I can get the problem with this.

[WOMBAI]

"As well as providing a visual cue to a Muslim community, the main function of the minaret is to provide a vantage point from which the call to prayer (adhan) is made."


I think the issue is to do with the height and the dominance in the skyline. The aim in Islamic countries is to be the tallest and most dominant thing on the skyline as it is the most important.

We have this with Churches in the UK, or used to.

I can get the problem with this.

In the end - it is about control! None of the above surprises me at all! All the more reason not to allow it!

[Crimson Dynamo]

If MacDonald's tried it, well can you imagine?

[Alf]

OK, . WHat in the hell is Europe coming to!


asia and africa

[arista]

No 90 Mosques so I don't know why you're getting your knickers in a twist over minarets when they're obviously not crucial to the general look of these places of worship.


Yes they have Plenty of places to go.


It ain't a Strict Muslim Nation
and does not need any more Spikes.


This is Democracy at work.

Well Done the Swiss

[WOMBAI]

Only three? Christ. Unless all the Mosques with Minarets were somehow loaded onto the back of trucks and parked directly outside your hotel window or home in Switzerland - where they would be left parked overnight with Arabic music blaring from soundspeakers mounted onto the back of Camels being manned by Quran touting extremists brandishing scimitars, I really fail to see how it gives the impression that Switzerland is a Muslim country without an identity of it's own.

Again, some people are very, very bored. Mountains out of ****ing molehills.

You fail to see the bigger picture - and the long-term effect - what it will lead to! The point is that they don't want more than 3/4 mosques with minarets in their country. A ban doesn't effect the ones already there - they just don't want any more!

You may not give a damn about the Swiss skyline and/or culture but a lot of Swiss people do! And many here can understand that.

[arista]

You fail to see the bigger picture - and the long-term effect - what it will lead to! The point is that they don't want more than 3/4 mosques with minarets in their country. A ban doesn't effect the ones already there - they just don't want any more!

You may not give a damn about the Swiss skyline and/or culture but a lot of Swiss people do! And many here can understand that.


Yes the Swiss Skyline is more Important
than any Spike.




It was clever to get a Public Vote
if only we could get Voting like that here.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Yes the Swiss Skyline is more Important
than any Spike.




It was clever to get a Public Vote
if only we could get Voting like that here.



politicians fear the public vote

[arista]

New Labour fear Public Votes
Very True.

[andyman]

The Conservaties also fear the public vote..

[Stu]

You fail to see the bigger picture - and the long-term effect - what it will lead to! The point is that they don't want more than 3/4 mosques with minarets in their country. A ban doesn't effect the ones already there - they just don't want any more!

You may not give a damn about the Swiss skyline and/or culture but a lot of Swiss people do! And many here can understand that.
Multiply then, for ***** and giggles. 10 Minarets dotting the country. Would it dominate the skyline? I think not. I think your missing the bigger picture. Switzerland has a pretty big skyline. The country as a whole believe it or not is bigger than your backyard.

Perhaps height restrictions on the minarets could be put in place so they could still have them but not so dominant. Meet them halfway. Sounds fair to me.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Multiply then, for ***** and giggles. 10 Minarets dotting the country. Would it dominate the skyline? I think not. I think your missing the bigger picture. Switzerland has a pretty big skyline. The country as a whole believe it or not is bigger than your backyard.

Perhaps height restrictions on the minarets could be put in place so they could still have them but not so dominant. Meet them halfway. Sounds fair to me.

pointless. the whole idea of them IS to dominate the skyline.

every country has architectural restrictions to maintain cultural identity. this perhaps is a reaction, however, to the complete lack of compromise from the Muslim community.

[Stu]

pointless. the whole idea of them IS to dominate the skyline.

every country has architectural restrictions to maintain cultural identity. this perhaps is a reaction, however, to the complete lack of compromise from the Muslim community.
The compromise being to lower the height. I know in Muslim countries the point is to dominate the skyline but like you said, It's not a Muslim country.

We can't speak for all the Muslim's here, but I think many of the more tolerant ones, and yes - such a thing exists, might like the compromise of maintaining the complete architecture of a traditional mosque only with lower Minarets.

[WOMBAI]

Multiply then, for ***** and giggles. 10 Minarets dotting the country. Would it dominate the skyline? I think not. I think your missing the bigger picture. Switzerland has a pretty big skyline. The country as a whole believe it or not is bigger than your backyard.

Perhaps height restrictions on the minarets could be put in place so they could still have them but not so dominant. Meet them halfway. Sounds fair to me.

I think the point is - the West have met them more than half-way on many occasions - which is probably why so many feel that it is about time they were prepared to make more concessions.

[Crimson Dynamo]

They accused her of not being a proper Muslim and supporting the deaths of civilians in Afghanistan

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1232153/Baroness-Warsi-pelted-eggs-walkabout-Luton.html#ixzz0YS3FsESI

II won't condemn these people. It shows the frustration of Muslim youths in Luton,' he said.

'Baroness Warsi needs to be exposed. She is somebody who pretends to be a practising Muslim but from her views and statements she is clearly against Sharia.'

[InOne]

Is this meant to be a new thread LT?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Is this meant to be a new thread LT?

no, just part of this. It links in to the way Islam is PR'd in the world

ie badly

[InOne]

Well it is stupid really. I quite liked this comment on the link.

They accused her of not being a proper Muslim and supporting the deaths of civilians in Afghanistan. They are the people who also protest against our soldiers.
When are we going to wake up. These people are no more British than their relatives still living in Pakistan. They hate everything about this country, other than the benefits they get here.

- Peter, Bournemouth, 01/12/2009 10:38

[Crimson Dynamo]

Well it is stupid really. I quite liked this comment on the link.

They accused her of not being a proper Muslim and supporting the deaths of civilians in Afghanistan. They are the people who also protest against our soldiers.
When are we going to wake up. These people are no more British than their relatives still living in Pakistan. They hate everything about this country, other than the benefits they get here.

- Peter, Bournemouth, 01/12/2009 10:38

Yes, it would certainly seem that way

[InOne]

It is that way. People are just too PC to admit it

[InOne]

More sensible talk.

Will you all stop going about this multiculturalism.There is no such thing.The point multiculturalism is that it is a unicultural phenomenon.You can't go to saudi Arabia and be mulitcultural, for example.There is nothing to celebrate with regards diversity-believing in everything is the same thing as believing in nothing.This is the UK and all people should abide by their laws.We don't want mass immigration, we don't need it and we never asked for it.

- tim wookey, Bristol, 1/12/2009 10:04

[Niamh.]

http://www.pewsitter.com/view_news_id_7306.php

[InOne]

http://www.pewsitter.com/view_news_id_7306.php

Typical, but build as many Mosque's as you want over here why don't you!!!!

[Niamh.]

Typical, but build as many Mosque's as you want over here why don't you!!!!

well, yeah. I mean I don't want to be accused of being racist or anything but there does seem to be an enormous set of double standards going on!

[InOne]

well, yeah. I mean I don't want to be accused of being racist or anything but there does seem to be an enormous set of double standards going on!

Good job Wildcat or Netto are not here.

It is always double standards with Islam, always will be. It is a milital forceful Religion that lives in the dark ages. Europe for some reason bows down to it. It is good that things like EDL is about really, althogh they get labelled as racists too. When things like that happen it is no wonder people vote BNP.

[Wildcat!]

well, yeah. I mean I don't want to be accused of being racist or anything but there does seem to be an enormous set of double standards going on!

Dont make the exception, be the rule. Saudi Arabia is extreme, compared to the rest of the muslim world, as I pointed out about the Churches in Senegal, but here are more for you:

Algeria
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_mFkRlsMQAlY/RzDmWKfFywI/AAAAAAAAAjc/NW8EIprseWQ/s1600-h/church_in_Algeria.jpg

Bahrein
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_mFkRlsMQAlY/RzDm4KfFyxI/AAAAAAAAAjk/djdv4-AoKG4/s1600-h/Church_In_Bahrain.jpg

Bangladesh
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_mFkRlsMQAlY/RzDnTafFyyI/AAAAAAAAAjs/a59c36B_kpA/s1600-h/Church_Bangladesh.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_mFkRlsMQAlY/RzDqKKfFy3I/AAAAAAAAAkU/7BV-iKDGAMw/s1600-h/399px-Cairo,_Old_Cairo,_Hanging_Church,_Egypt,_Oct_2004. jpg

Imdonesia
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_mFkRlsMQAlY/RzDnzKfFyzI/AAAAAAAAAj0/Hwtw5aCrpsQ/s1600-h/Nanggala-Church_indonesia.jpg

Iran
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_mFkRlsMQAlY/RzDotqfFy1I/AAAAAAAAAkE/M2T20cP66gM/s1600-h/Baptist%C3%A8re_kelisa-e-vank_esfahan.jpg

Kuwait
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_mFkRlsMQAlY/RzDpnKfFy2I/AAAAAAAAAkM/R3ljPwW9EHk/s1600-h/armenian_catholic_church_iRaq.jpg

Jordan
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_mFkRlsMQAlY/RzDqwKfFy4I/AAAAAAAAAkc/oIHhQeMQsiA/s1600-h/Amman_Coptic_Church.jpg

Kuwait
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_mFkRlsMQAlY/RzDoQafFy0I/AAAAAAAAAj8/SsX4b3x7HuA/s1600-h/Church_In_Kuwait.jpg

Lybya
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_mFkRlsMQAlY/RzDrqqfFy5I/AAAAAAAAAkk/gJFw9Al7B64/s1600-h/Church_in_Libya.jpg

Morocco
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_mFkRlsMQAlY/RzDsQafFy6I/AAAAAAAAAks/xXl11j6nG8I/s1600-h/Church_in_Larache10.jpg

Pakistan
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_mFkRlsMQAlY/RzDszKfFy7I/AAAAAAAAAk0/fMhNiVXizgI/s1600-h/Regal_Church_Lahore_Pakistan.JPG

Syria
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_mFkRlsMQAlY/RzDtfafFy9I/AAAAAAAAAlE/y0a-_eANeaI/s1600-h/Syrian-roman-orthodox-church.jpg

Turkey
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_mFkRlsMQAlY/RzDtE6fFy8I/AAAAAAAAAk8/IekxKM0p088/s1600-h/Iron_Church_Istanbul.jpeg

United Arab Emirates
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_mFkRlsMQAlY/RzDt56fFy-I/AAAAAAAAAlM/EwSfprpoLAU/s1600-h/Church_in_United_Arab_Emirates.jpg


I could go on. BUt as you can see, they have big beautiful churches, with no restrictions, and they an built as many as they deem necessary in these muslim countries.
No matter how you spin it, that decision is wrong, and is definitely oression. Thankfully, most of the rest of the world have condemn the referendum, including France, and all the majors western countries. ONly a minority seem to agree, with it, so there is hope.

And BTW, most of the muslims in the world do think that its ridiculous, Saudi Arabia, asks the catholic church to acknowledge Mohamed as a prophet, as their ondition to allow, buliding of churches. The Christians, dont believe in Mohamed, so its stupid to ask them to do so.
Again dont let one intolerant nation, make you become intolerant like they are. If so, youre no better than the Saudis.

[Wildcat!]

Oh no! All that effort, and I cant see my pictures. :sad:
cAn anyone else see them?

[Niamh.]

Oh no! All that effort, and I cant see my pictures. :sad:
cAn anyone else see them?

no sorry Wildcat!!

I really don't know much about this subject to be fair, I'm just trying to look at it from all angles really

[Wildcat!]

Sure I understand, but thats how extremists work. They take a bad aspect of a religion or an exception, to use it as scare tactics, for intolerance. If you only listened to them, you would believe muslim coutntries, dont allow churches, which is untrue.

But here is where I got the pics, bottom of the page.

http://islam-west.com/2007/11/christian-churches-in-muslim-countries.html

[Crimson Dynamo]

http://newsrealblog.com/2009/12/01/stop-the-minarets/


"One could also question Goodman’s use of the specious argument put forth by Amnesty International, which characterizes the Swiss vote banning minarets as a “violation of religious freedom.” A curious argument coming from an organization that remains strangely silent on the issue of religious freedom in the Islamic world, where it is forbidden to build a church of any kind in countries such as Bangladesh, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia (where Christians may not even set foot in many areas for fear of being executed)."

http://jonathanturley.org/2009/11/29/islamic-scholar-allowing-churches-in-islamic-nations-just-doesnt-add-up/

interesting video!

[Niamh.]

Sure I understand, but thats how extremists work. They take a bad aspect of a religion or an exception, to use it as scare tactics, for intolerance. If you only listened to them, you would believe muslim coutntries, dont allow churches, which is untrue.

But here is where I got the pics, bottom of the page.

http://islam-west.com/2007/11/christian-churches-in-muslim-countries.html

point taken Wildcat. Like I said before it really doesn't bother me in the slightest whether or not they build them anyway, I would have just thought if they don't allow it in their countries why should other countries allow them but you've proven that that isn't 100% true.

[Wildcat!]

http://newsrealblog.com/2009/12/01/stop-the-minarets/


"One could also question Goodman’s use of the specious argument put forth by Amnesty International, which characterizes the Swiss vote banning minarets as a “violation of religious freedom.” A curious argument coming from an organization that remains strangely silent on the issue of religious freedom in the Islamic world, where it is forbidden to build a church of any kind in countries such as Bangladesh, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia (where Christians may not even set foot in many areas for fear of being executed)."


Thats a fair point, and it should be condemned.
Its also good to note, that there are 50 countries in the world considered to be muslim. So obviously those intolerant nations, are a minority.


And BTW, there are churches, in all those countries you listed.

[Wildcat!]

Yep, but they're the big boys; the hive centre, just like the Vatican is to Catholics, right?


LIke I said, they have churches on those coutries, I dont know, where the poster got their informations, but its not true. Some countries, still have issues, with persecussion I think, but they have churches.

[Wildcat!]

http://across.co.nz/BangladeshChurches.html

http://across.co.nz/PakistanChurches.html

And Afghanistan, is definitely no big boy in the muslim world, neither is Bangladesh

[InOne]

I'd prefer to the discuss the way they reacted to that woman in Luton...

[setanta]

LIke I said, they have churches on those coutries, I dont know, where the poster got their informations, but its not true. Some countries, still have issues, with persecussion I think, but they have churches.

Hey, I'm not having a pop, just trying to understand more about your faith and how the more orthodox followers feel about other creeds and ways of life, especially from states like that where Islamic Law is practiced. Look, Christianity has a bloody past too which is not something to be proud of but like you said, we shouldn't ingnorantly condemn others or react strongly with any kind of rhetoric without having a look at the facts.

I'm reading about Islamic Law and the history of persecutian of Non- Muslims now and it's a bit troubling to say the least in certain parts.

[Wildcat!]

Hey, I'm not having a pop, just trying to understand more about your faith and how the more orthodox followers feel about other creeds and ways of life, especially from states like that where Islamic Law is practiced. Look, Christianity has a bloody past too which is not something to be proud of but like you said, we shouldn't ingnorantly condemn others or react strongly with any kind of rethoric without having a look at the facts.

I'm reading about Islamic Law and the history of persecutian of Non- Muslims now and it's a bit troubling to say the least in certain parts.


yeah, fair enough. I just object to the insinuation, based on maybe 2 or 3 countries in the whole muslim world. And BTW, most muslim countries, do not have muslim law (sharia). They have a regular constitution, that has nothing to do with the religion. I think these are the countires that practice it!

Iran

Pakistan

Saudi Arabi

Nigeria

Sudan

Iraq (prior to 2003)

Egypt

And again, most muslim I know, dont agree with Islam as a law, And some of its cruel punishments.

[Wildcat!]

I'd prefer to the discuss the way they reacted to that woman in Luton...

Gladly! They are a bunch of morons, like most muslim extremists. And they should be arrested, if you ask me.

[Niamh.]

yeah, fair enough. I just object to the insinuation, based on maybe 2 or 3 countries in the whole muslim world. And BTW, most muslim countries, do not have muslim law (sharia). They have a regular constitution, that has nothing to do with the religion. I think these are the countires that practice it!

Iran

Pakistan

Saudi Arabi

Nigeria

Sudan

Iraq (prior to 2003)

Egypt

And again, most muslim I know, dont agree with Islam as a law, And some of its cruel punishments.


Most religions have laws that are outdated now anyway I think. Catholicism has loads that could do with changing

[setanta]

Most religions have laws that are outdated now anyway I think. Catholicism has loads that could do with changing

Yeah, but religion doesn't play a huge part in a democratic societies law making or judicial system.

[Niamh.]

Yeah, but religion doesn't play a huge part in a democratic societies law making or judicial system.

no, it doesn't, I really know very lttle about Muslim countries laws and how much of a part their religion plays in their judicial system or democratic societies though

[setanta]

no, it doesn't, I really know very lttle about Muslim countries laws and how much of a part their religion plays in their judicial system or democratic societies though

I don't really know so much either, but I've been reading about it right now and the whole thing looks very antiquated to me, which I can't really see functioning in our world on any level. It would be kinda like us drawing from the old testament for all our laws.... a fair bit of it has no real relevance or place in the real world.

[InOne]

Gladly! They are a bunch of morons, like most muslim extremists. And they should be arrested, if you ask me.

Indeed, are you sure they are what we would call extreme though? I mean if they are the youth, it is not good!!

[Wildcat!]

I don't really know so much either, but I've been reading about it right now and the whole thing looks very antiquated to me, which I can't really see functioning in our world on any level. It would be kinda like us drawing from the old testament for all our laws.... a fair bit of it has no real relevance or place in the real world.


Thats why I laugh, when I hear people say stuff like, they are worried about Islam, because they want to bring Sharia law to the UK!
LIke thats ever gonna happen. Most muslim countries dont use it, how in the wold would it ever see daylight here?

[Wildcat!]

Indeed, are you sure they are what we would call extreme though? I mean if they are the youth, it is not good!!

Of course they are extremists. Anyone who would throw rotten eggs at a Muslim woman, because that woman is not as good a Muslim as they like, is an extremist, no matter how old they are.
People have to understand, those types of incidents, always make the press, thats why some think all muslims are like that. BUt nothing could be further from the truth. Most want peace, and dont want to dominate the headlines, for the wrong reasons. BUt thats all that they show, they will never show you anything good accomplished by the muslim community.

[setanta]

Thats why I laugh, when I hear people say stuff like, they are worried about Islam, because they want to bring Sharia law to the UK!
LIke thats ever gonna happen. Most muslim countries dont use it, how in the wold would it ever see daylight here?

It's interesting reading though cuz a few of the countries practice Islamic Law when it involves marriage and inheritance, so obviously it has a certain presence in many states. Fascinating stuff.

[InOne]

Of course they are extremists. Anyone who would throw rotten eggs at a Muslim woman, because that woman is not as good a Muslim as they like, is an extremist, no matter how old they are.
People have to understand, those types of incidents, always make the press, thats why some think all muslims are like that. BUt nothing could be further from the truth. Most want peace, and dont want to dominate the headlines, for the wrong reasons. BUt thats all that they show, they will never show you anything good accomplished by the muslim community.

Indeed, half the muslims I know are not too bothered about Islam, they just get on with it. I think it is to do with indentity crisis is some care. Are they British, Muslim, are they from where their parents are from ect. Some can deal with it and class themselves as whatever they want and get on with it. But if they face prejudice and that, they tend to look some other things such as extremism. But that should not really be happening now as we've had muslims over here for decades. Maybe some people are just more prone to violence and act that way because they can. Same with people who joined the IRA when they were most active.

[setanta]

Same with people who joined the IRA when they were most active.

That's a whole other discussion baby.

[Wildcat!]

It's interesting reading though cuz a few of the countries practice Islamic Law when it involves marriage and inheritance, so obviously it has a certain presence in many states. Fascinating stuff.

Yeah, thats true. They do that in my country as well, but its strictly up to the individuals to decide, if they want the law when they sign their marriage papers.

[InOne]

That's a whole other discussion baby.

I know lol I don't think it needs to be reopened!!!

[setanta]

Yeah, thats true. They do that in my country as well, but its strictly up to the individuals to decide, if they want the law when they sign their marriage papers.

It's just a bit odd though, don't you think and it highlights how the Qur'an can filter into every aspect of life in these states. I find that worrying in the same way I would with any religion that has the ability or power to supersede independent or rational thought on a given subject. Just my opinion mind you.

[NettoSuperstar!]

Should they ban brits from opening greasy cafes on the costa del sol? Thats more offensive to Spanish culture than a few mosques!!!

[InOne]

Should they ban brits from opening greasy cafes on the costa del sol? Thats more offensive to Spanish culture than a few mosques!!!

Cafes serve food. Mosques serve Muslims, a bit different dear.

[NettoSuperstar!]

I think the point is - the West have met them more than half-way on many occasions - which is probably why so many feel that it is about time they were prepared to make more concessions.

actually they do make a lot of concessions I heard recently on radio 4 of an agreement with other faith leaders that minaretts would be no higher than church steeples. The Muslim council of Great Britain work together with all faiths all the time to understand each other and counter discrimination. more lies

[NettoSuperstar!]

Cafes serve food. Mosques serve Muslims, a bit different dear.

Lol riiight! So one serves Brits abroad who dont want to eat "foreign muck" but thats different! Well Id be far more pissed off with skeggy del sol invasion than a bloody mosque any day

[arista]

Should they ban brits from opening greasy cafes on the costa del sol? Thats more offensive to Spanish culture than a few mosques!!!


Netto Dear
Mosques are Not Banned by the Swiss.


Just the Spikes on them.
They have 4 , as it is.


So they are Lucky.

[arista]

Oh no! All that effort, and I cant see my pictures. :sad:
cAn anyone else see them?


Are you on Firefox?

[InOne]

Lol riiight! So one serves Brits abroad who dont want to eat "foreign muck" but thats different! Well Id be far more pissed off with skeggy by the sea invasion than a bloody mosque any day

So now you are Stereotyping British people, as you claim I do with Muslims. Wonderful.

[Niamh.]

Of course they are extremists. Anyone who would throw rotten eggs at a Muslim woman, because that woman is not as good a Muslim as they like, is an extremist, no matter how old they are.
People have to understand, those types of incidents, always make the press, thats why some think all muslims are like that. BUt nothing could be further from the truth. Most want peace, and dont want to dominate the headlines, for the wrong reasons. BUt thats all that they show, they will never show you anything good accomplished by the muslim community.

well, that does sound more likely to me

[Niamh.]

That's a whole other discussion baby.

lol, absolutely!!

[Niamh.]

Should they ban brits from opening greasy cafes on the costa del sol? Thats more offensive to Spanish culture than a few mosques!!!

lol, good point Netto!!

[InOne]

lol, good point Netto!!

It is a ridiculous point lol

[Niamh.]

It is a ridiculous point lol

It's not really, cos somebody was arguing that the reason for not wanting those spike things was because they'd take away from the sky line and the Swiss architecture do those cafes not do the same in Spain?

[InOne]

It's not really, cos somebody was arguing that the reason for not wanting those spike things was because they'd take away from the sky line and the Swiss architecture do those cafes not do the same in Spain?

Well Cafes are usually small little huts. Mosques are massive buildings. Plus everyone needs to eat, but not everyone goes to Mosque. Also, they build them in the tourist areas built for holiday makers anyway.

[Niamh.]

Well Cafes are usually small little huts. Mosques are massive buildings. Plus everyone needs to eat, but not everyone goes to Mosque. Also, they build them in the tourist areas built for holiday makers anyway.

I thought it was good point anyway:tongue:

[InOne]

I thought it was good point anyway:tongue:

You can't compare food with Religion. God knows how Netto will answer that one. Will most likely make me chuckle though.

[Niamh.]

You can't compare food with Religion. God knows how Netto will answer that one. Will most likely make me chuckle though.

it wasn't supposed to be comparing food and religion, it was to do with the spike on the building not the religion itself

[InOne]

it wasn't supposed to be comparing food and religion, it was to do with the spike on the building not the religion itself

I know, but any excuse to have a stab at the British. Still though, it was an odd comparison.

[Niamh.]

I know, but any excuse to have a stab at the British. Still though, it was an odd comparison.

well, you can't expect to not have comparisons made to British buildings abroad when your in an argument like this really!!

[InOne]

well, you can't expect to not have comparisons made to British buildings abroad when your in an argument like this really!!

Why not? The whole debate is about it being in Switzerland!!!

[Niamh.]

Why not? The whole debate is about it being in Switzerland!!!

yes but the majority of the posters are British and I believe you yourself brought up a case of a woman in London being attacked so you can't have it both ways!!

Edit : Luton not London

[InOne]

yes nut the majority of the posters are British and I believe you yourself brought up a case of a woman in London being attacked so you can't have it both ways!!

That was LT. But I can have it both ways. Comaparing cafes with Mosques is just ridiculous, come on? There is no logic in it, it was a random stab at the British. And it is not as though they build them in the old town parts of Spain is it? They are in the tourist areas. Mosques are built wherever the Muslims see fit.

[Niamh.]

I'd prefer to the discuss the way they reacted to that woman in Luton...

maybe originally but so did you ^^^^^

[InOne]

maybe originally but so did you ^^^^^

Yes, it was better than how many Churches were in every Muslim country lol

[Tom4784]

Wow how perfect must that country be if they can waste government time and such trivial and pointless issues? The idea that they are frightened of losing their heritage is ridiculous, there'd have to be a LOT of mosques and such built and a LOT less churches for it to even slightly resemble a muslin country.

What a complete and utter waste of Government resources.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Wow how perfect must that country be if they can waste government time and such trivial and pointless issues? The idea that they are frightened of losing their heritage is ridiculous, there'd have to be a LOT of mosques and such built and a LOT less churches for it to even slightly resemble a muslin country.

What a complete and utter waste of Government resources.

yes i hate democracy...

[Dr.Gonzo]

The point being: it is their country and they have spoken, whether we agree with them or not. If they don't want it, they shouldn't have to have it. End of.

[arista]

The point being: it is their country and they have spoken, whether we agree with them or not. If they don't want it, they shouldn't have to have it. End of.

Yes it is that Simple.
Public Voting on a Important Issue.


Well done the Swiss.

[WOMBAI]

The Swiss make their own decisions - it is their country! Who the hell does anyone else think they are trying to tell them what they should and shouldn't do.

[InOne]

This is not even really a debate. The Swiss have more backbone than the UK do. That is all.

[Tom4784]

yes i hate democracy...

I'm not against democracy but it's a pointless issue when you consider the real problems this world has. It's their country and they can do what they want but this is my opinion and I'm entitled to it.

[Dr.Gonzo]

This is not even really a debate. The Swiss have more backbone than the UK do. That is all.

Yes. Our leaders know what the answer would be if we were given similar power to vote on cultural movements.

You try to please everyone, you please no one.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I'm not against democracy but it's a pointless issue when you consider the real problems this world has. It's their country and they can do what they want but this is my opinion and I'm entitled to it.

why should the swiss solve other countries problems. this is a swiss matter and they voted on it. normal democratic politics.

lol at "pointless issue"

quite the reverse bearing in mind the architecture

[WOMBAI]

I'm not against democracy but it's a pointless issue when you consider the real problems this world has. It's their country and they can do what they want but this is my opinion and I'm entitled to it.

It is only a "pointless issue" if you don't understand the significance of such a decision. A "few" minarets can pretty soon become hundreds and before you know it - it has become a problem - much harder to undo at that stage. It is about being proactive and thinking ahead and putting in place preventative measures to protect a country's culture and identity. You need to be able to see the "bigger picture".

[Tom4784]

why should the swiss solve other countries problems. this is a swiss matter and they voted on it. normal democratic politics.

lol at "pointless issue"

quite the reverse bearing in mind the architecture

I was reffering to such things as crime rates and such. Stuff every country faces

Granted they're spikes....placed on the roof. There's very little chances of injury so it isn't about a health and safty issue, it's about rascists who have used scare tactics to pass a bill that's a complete waste of time and money which could have been spent helping the citizens of the country. What's next? Banning Menorahs, Buddha statues and Sikh and Hindu architecture? Or is it only because of a few individuals which have soured the view of a whole religion?

It's their country yes and they can do what they like but I can have my own opinion and I find it said that money's been wasted on trivial stuff like this when it could be used to make the quality of life even better for the country's citizens.

[arista]

This is not even really a debate. The Swiss have more backbone than the UK do. That is all.



As a Debate I started with the News Story
it has done well.


And The Swiss do not have Pathetic
One Eyed Scottish Brown wrecking their nation.

[InOne]

I was reffering to such things as crime rates and such. Stuff every country faces

Granted they're spikes....placed on the roof. There's very little chances of injury so it isn't about a health and safty issue, it's about rascists who have used scare tactics to pass a bill that's a complete waste of time and money which could have been spent helping the citizens of the country. What's next? Banning Menorahs, Buddha statues and Sikh and Hindu architecture? Or is it only because of a few individuals which have soured the view of a whole religion?

It's their country yes and they can do what they like but I can have my own opinion and I find it said that money's been wasted on trivial stuff like this when it could be used to make the quality of life even better for the country's citizens.

Don't bring race into it!!!! It is about Religion, nothing else. If the Swiss want to keep their Skyline and their Culture it is up to them.

[WOMBAI]

I was reffering to such things as crime rates and such. Stuff every country faces

Granted they're spikes....placed on the roof. There's very little chances of injury so it isn't about a health and safty issue, it's about rascists who have used scare tactics to pass a bill that's a complete waste of time and money which could have been spent helping the citizens of the country. What's next? Banning Menorahs, Buddha statues and Sikh and Hindu architecture? Or is it only because of a few individuals which have soured the view of a whole religion?

It's their country yes and they can do what they like but I can have my own opinion and I find it said that money's been wasted on trivial stuff like this when it could be used to make the quality of life even better for the country's citizens.

'Scare tactics' - who says - netto and wildcat. Two very independent, unbiased posters of course!

[arista]

Don't bring race into it!!!! It is about Religion, nothing else. If the Swiss want to keep their Skyline and their Culture it is up to them.


Yes that is it.

[Tom4784]

It is only a "pointless issue" if you don't understand the significance of such a decision. A "few" minarets can pretty soon become hundreds and before you know it - it has become a problem - much harder to undo at that stage. It is about being proactive and thinking ahead and putting in place preventative measures to protect a country's culture and identity. You need to be able to see the "bigger picture".

But in order for it to really change the look of Sweden there'd have to be a lot of muslim architecture about, How many mosques do you think there are in Sweden in comparision to more western looking buildings? The latter by far outnumbers the former you could have a thousand spikes on a mosque yet it wouldn't make much of a difference to what a city's skyline would look like due to the fact that there aren't as many Mosques as there are western buildings.

I could have seen the point if the minarets were in a place were injury is more likely but for me personally I just don't get the fuss.

[arista]

Dezzy does not live there
so of course he can not see what the fuss is.

Its a Small Nation
and it Ain't a Muslim nation.

Its that simple.

[setanta]

The initiators justify their point of view by stating parts of later Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan's 1997 speech, which holds: "Mosques are our barracks, domes our helmets, minarets our bayonets, believers our soldiers. This holy army guards my religion."

Found that extract a little startling to tell you the truth and I believe Switzerland's opposition to the building of minarets is a reaction to the intolerant tendencies of Islam towards other creeds or ways of life, which is in direct conflict to how peacefully the Swiss like to coexist with their neighbours and other nations, continually holding onto their neutral policies.

[arista]

Yes the Turks are Trouble
and Still not in the €uro.

[WOMBAI]

The initiators justify their point of view by stating parts of later Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan's 1997 speech, which holds: "Mosques are our barracks, domes our helmets, minarets our bayonets, believers our soldiers. This holy army guards my religion."

Found that extract a little startling to tell you the truth and I believe Switzerland's opposition to the building of minarets is a reaction to the intolerant tendencies of Islam towards other creeds or ways of life, which is in direct conflict to how peacefully the Swiss like to coexist with their neighbours and other nations, continually holding onto their neutral policies.

:thumbs:

[Tom4784]

It's naive to think that Race didn't play a part in this campaign look at the posters, they could have just gone with the spike motif but they also added a muslim woman but not just any woman, a woman in the dreaded Burka! The codes and signs speak for themselves. The campaign be be against the minarets but muslims are presented as the villains here and since a large majority of muslims are arabic Sweden's taking away the right for them to have a proper hall of worship, it's really no different to taking away christian decorations from a church.

[InOne]

It's naive to think that Race didn't play a part in this campaign look at the posters, they could have just gone with the spike motif but they also added a muslim woman but not just any woman, a woman in the dreaded Burka! The codes and signs speak for themselves. The campaign be be against the minarets but muslims are presented as the villains here and since a large majority of muslims are arabic Sweden's taking away the right for them to have a proper hall of worship, it's really no different to taking away christian decorations from a church.

They have Mosques, it is a spike for god sake. No rights are being taken away. You are looking into this way too deeply.

[arista]

They have Mosques, it is a spike for god sake. No rights are being taken away. You are looking into this way too deeply.


Yes Dezzy does that all the time.

[WOMBAI]

It's naive to think that Race didn't play a part in this campaign look at the posters, they could have just gone with the spike motif but they also added a muslim woman but not just any woman, a woman in the dreaded Burka! The codes and signs speak for themselves. The campaign be be against the minarets but muslims are presented as the villains here and since a large majority of muslims are arabic Sweden's taking away the right for them to have a proper hall of worship, it's really no different to taking away christian decorations from a church.

Yes, the pictures were probably a bit emotive - because people feel very strongly about their culture - Muslims more so than most! Do only Muslims have that right in your book! The Muslim religion is not as tolerant towards other religions as they expect others to be towards theirs. That is simply double-standards. Why would you support that? And please answer a question - if their religion is so important to them - why don't they live in an Islamic country. Simple! Nobody is stopping them praying or even building mosques - just not the minarets! It is the Muslims making an issue of it!!

[Tom4784]

Yes, the pictures were probably a bit emotive - because people feel very strongly about their culture - Muslims more so than most! Do only Muslims have that right in your book! The Muslim religion is not as tolerant towards other religions as they expect others to be towards theirs. That is simply double-standards. Why would you support that? And please answer a question - if their religion is so important to them - why don't they live in an Islamic country. Simple! Nobody is stopping them praying or even building mosques - just not the minarets! It is the Muslims making an issue of it!!

Not all muslims are intolerant, if you base your opinion of an entire religion on the actions of a few then all religions and creeds are bloodthirsty and evil and none moreso then Christianity, If we look back in history Christianity have slaughtered millions, burnt women to death for no reason and have looked down and restricted rights to various types people in socieity. If we are to take that approach in modern times then should branches of Christianity like the Westboro church should represent the religion as a whole? Are all Christians extreme homophobes that preach hatred to all creeds apart from themselves? No, and it's the same thing for muslims. There's extremists in every religion but you can't judge the whole on a minority.

The point about Islamic countries is laughable and quite intolerable towards in itself which is quite contradictory to what you are trying to say. If a country doesn't want different creeds and cultures then they should close the country's borders. People emmigrate for plenty of reasons, thousands of Brittons move to other countries for work and such and it's the same for most people who come to the UK. People don't always have the luxory of choice.

To say your main point is about how intolerant muslims are you're not doing yourself any favours.

What if in a muslim country they passed a law that churches couldn't have a steeple or a crucifix or a bell or something? There'd be outrage in the Chrsitian community, this is the same thing. Empathy is a key point, put yourselves in other people's shoes.

Now I could understand from a voters perspective if the minarets were in a more accident prone place but they aren't. and I could understand it from a culture perspective but there isn't enough mosques in your average city to make any difference to it.

[WOMBAI]

Not all muslims are intolerant, if you base your opinion of an entire religion on the actions of a few then all religions and creeds are bloodthirsty and evil and none moreso then Christianity, If we look back in history Christianity have slaughtered millions, burnt women to death for no reason and have looked down and restricted rights to various types people in socieity. If we are to take that approach in modern times then should branches of Christianity like the Westboro church should represent the religion as a whole? Are all Christians extreme homophobes that preach hatred to all creeds apart from themselves? No, and it's the same thing for muslims. There's extremists in every religion but you can't judge the whole on a minority.

The point about Islamic countries is laughable and quite intolerable towards in itself which is quite contradictory to what you are trying to say. If a country doesn't want different creeds and cultures then they should close the country's borders. People emmigrate for plenty of reasons, thousands of Brittons move to other countries for work and such and it's the same for most people who come to the UK. People don't always have the luxory of choice.

To say your main point is about how intolerant muslims are you're not doing yourself any favours.

What if in a muslim country they passed a law that churches couldn't have a steeple or a crucifix or a bell or something? There'd be outrage in the Chrsitian community, this is the same thing. Empathy is a key point, put yourselves in other people's shoes.

Now I could understand from a voters perspective if the minarets were in a more accident prone place but they aren't. and I could understand it from a culture perspective but there isn't enough mosques in your average city to make any difference to it.


Wer'e not talking about history - every religion/culture has it skeletons in closets - we are talking now. Most religions/cultures have moved with the times to some extent - and few religions in this day and age still stone women to death.

Of course there are extremists in every religion - but the Muslim religion has, by far, a much greater number - the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are evidence of that.

And most people who choose to live in another country - assimilate into the culture of that country and adopt its way of life. That is respectful. Do you really think that any woman, including western women, could go to Muslim countries like Saudi or Afganistan and walk around freely and safely in clothing that did not cover them in the way the Muslim religion dictates. We are expected to show respect and cover up in their country - so why do they not show the same respect for our codes of dress - and insist on wearing clothing (the burkha) that does not fit in with our way of life and causes much controversy.

Switzerland has made it perfectly clear that Muslims are welcome in Switzerland as long as they are prepared to assimilate into Swiss society - a perfectly reasonable request.

[NettoSuperstar!]

That was LT. But I can have it both ways. Comaparing cafes with Mosques is just ridiculous, come on? There is no logic in it, it was a random stab at the British. And it is not as though they build them in the old town parts of Spain is it? They are in the tourist areas. Mosques are built wherever the Muslims see fit.

What Im comparing Inone is that there are elements of British culture that are inflicted on people abroad, that are not that appealing but noone gets their knickers in a twist about that, theres no hysterical ramblings about them! And thats not a stab at British culture as most of us think its embarassing, most of us think blind prejudice against other groups such as muslims is embarassing too! Thats what I love about the British

[NettoSuperstar!]

Wer'e not talking about history - every religion/culture has it skeletons in closets - we are talking now. Most religions/cultures have moved with the times to some extent - and few religions in this day and age still stone women to death.

Of course there are extremists in every religion - but the Muslim religion has, by far, a much greater number - the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are evidence of that.

And most people who choose to live in another country - assimilate into the culture of that country and adopt its way of life. That is respectful. Do you really think that any woman, including western women, could go to Muslim countries like Saudi or Afganistan and walk around freely and safely in clothing that did not cover them in the way the Muslim religion dictates. We are expected to show respect and cover up in their country - so why do they not show the same respect for our codes of dress - and insist on wearing clothing (the burkha) that does not fit in with our way of life and causes much controversy.

Switzerland has made it perfectly clear that Muslims are welcome in Switzerland as long as they are prepared to assimilate into Swiss society - a perfectly reasonable request.

Right so muslims born in Britain have no right to celebrate their culture in the country they were born in? What exactly should they and shouldnt they be allowed to do? And how is your life affected by it really? Im sure you get outraged everytime you pick up the Daily Mail (cant be good for you blood pressure!), but in reality is your life affected by others having cultural and religious freedom? Is you getting on with your cultural business affected?

[Crimson Dynamo]

What Im comparing Inone is that there are elements of British culture that are inflicted on people abroad, that are not that appealing but noone gets their knickers in a twist about that, theres no hysterical ramblings about them! And thats not a stab at British culture as most of us think its embarassing, most of us think blind prejudice against other groups such as muslims is embarassing too! Thats what I love about the British

No one gets their knickers in a twist, in your example, because they are too busy counting the money coming in..

[NettoSuperstar!]

No one gets their knickers in a twist, in your example, because they are too busy counting the money coming in..

Ok so no problem with ex pat communities abroad then?...just for the record

[NettoSuperstar!]

Dont make the exception, be the rule. Saudi Arabia is extreme, compared to the rest of the muslim world, as I pointed out about the Churches in Senegal, but here are more for you:

Algeria
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_mFkRlsMQAlY/RzDmWKfFywI/AAAAAAAAAjc/NW8EIprseWQ/s1600-h/church_in_Algeria.jpg

Bahrein
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_mFkRlsMQAlY/RzDm4KfFyxI/AAAAAAAAAjk/djdv4-AoKG4/s1600-h/Church_In_Bahrain.jpg

Bangladesh
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_mFkRlsMQAlY/RzDnTafFyyI/AAAAAAAAAjs/a59c36B_kpA/s1600-h/Church_Bangladesh.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_mFkRlsMQAlY/RzDqKKfFy3I/AAAAAAAAAkU/7BV-iKDGAMw/s1600-h/399px-Cairo,_Old_Cairo,_Hanging_Church,_Egypt,_Oct_2004. jpg

Imdonesia
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_mFkRlsMQAlY/RzDnzKfFyzI/AAAAAAAAAj0/Hwtw5aCrpsQ/s1600-h/Nanggala-Church_indonesia.jpg

Iran
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_mFkRlsMQAlY/RzDotqfFy1I/AAAAAAAAAkE/M2T20cP66gM/s1600-h/Baptist%C3%A8re_kelisa-e-vank_esfahan.jpg

Kuwait
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_mFkRlsMQAlY/RzDpnKfFy2I/AAAAAAAAAkM/R3ljPwW9EHk/s1600-h/armenian_catholic_church_iRaq.jpg

Jordan
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_mFkRlsMQAlY/RzDqwKfFy4I/AAAAAAAAAkc/oIHhQeMQsiA/s1600-h/Amman_Coptic_Church.jpg

Kuwait
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_mFkRlsMQAlY/RzDoQafFy0I/AAAAAAAAAj8/SsX4b3x7HuA/s1600-h/Church_In_Kuwait.jpg

Lybya
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_mFkRlsMQAlY/RzDrqqfFy5I/AAAAAAAAAkk/gJFw9Al7B64/s1600-h/Church_in_Libya.jpg

Morocco
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_mFkRlsMQAlY/RzDsQafFy6I/AAAAAAAAAks/xXl11j6nG8I/s1600-h/Church_in_Larache10.jpg

Pakistan
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_mFkRlsMQAlY/RzDszKfFy7I/AAAAAAAAAk0/fMhNiVXizgI/s1600-h/Regal_Church_Lahore_Pakistan.JPG

Syria
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_mFkRlsMQAlY/RzDtfafFy9I/AAAAAAAAAlE/y0a-_eANeaI/s1600-h/Syrian-roman-orthodox-church.jpg

Turkey
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_mFkRlsMQAlY/RzDtE6fFy8I/AAAAAAAAAk8/IekxKM0p088/s1600-h/Iron_Church_Istanbul.jpeg

United Arab Emirates
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_mFkRlsMQAlY/RzDt56fFy-I/AAAAAAAAAlM/EwSfprpoLAU/s1600-h/Church_in_United_Arab_Emirates.jpg


I could go on. BUt as you can see, they have big beautiful churches, with no restrictions, and they an built as many as they deem necessary in these muslim countries.
No matter how you spin it, that decision is wrong, and is definitely oression. Thankfully, most of the rest of the world have condemn the referendum, including France, and all the majors western countries. ONly a minority seem to agree, with it, so there is hope.

And BTW, most of the muslims in the world do think that its ridiculous, Saudi Arabia, asks the catholic church to acknowledge Mohamed as a prophet, as their ondition to allow, buliding of churches. The Christians, dont believe in Mohamed, so its stupid to ask them to do so.
Again dont let one intolerant nation, make you become intolerant like they are. If so, youre no better than the Saudis.

They wont like facts Wildcat! spoils their hysterical view of things...they wont choose to argue against these points...it'll revert back to deflection and arguing minor points...just like they wont argue against the fact that most muslims do compromise and work with other faiths in this country!

[InOne]

What Im comparing Inone is that there are elements of British culture that are inflicted on people abroad, that are not that appealing but noone gets their knickers in a twist about that, theres no hysterical ramblings about them! And thats not a stab at British culture as most of us think its embarassing, most of us think blind prejudice against other groups such as muslims is embarassing too! Thats what I love about the British

Well i'm not being prejudice against anything. Most of what I talk about has already happened anyway. But like I said, they have the cafes in the tourist areas which relies on the British to spend. I know you are all about equality and that, but you are really bias. You don't seem to see anyone else's point of view, and anything said about Islam is apprently racist??? At the end of the say the Swiss had the final say, so there is no debate, it's not going to change.

[NettoSuperstar!]

You Wombai and Trumpet are constantly stating that muslims are taking over, British culture is threatened, that they dont make concessions, that they are largely fanatical etc when evidence points to the fact theyre not generally at all. Thats prejuidice. And you slag off muslim countries that are religiously intolerant (ignore the fact that most muslim countries are not) and then want us to be like that??? Thank god most of us Brits are not so reactionary and hysterical as the Swiss.

[InOne]

You Wombai and Trumpet are constantly stating that muslims are taking over, British culture is threatened, that they dont make concessions, that they are largely fanatical etc when evidence points to the fact theyre not generally at all. Thats prejuidice. And you slag off muslim countries that are religiously intolerant (ignore the fact that most muslim countries are not) and then want us to be like that??? Thank god most of us Brits are not so reactionary and hysterical as the Swiss.

Well you don't speak for 'most' really do you. We all have different views yet you merge the 3 of ours together. Obviously they are not all largely fanatical, but the ones that are make a big impact. The British culture is not what it used to be. The Brits fault as well by the way!! And the only Muslim country I have seen slagged off is Saudi Arabia, which is brutal to say the least.

[NettoSuperstar!]

Well you don't speak for 'most' really do you. We all have different views yet you merge the 3 of ours together. Obviously they are not all largely fanatical, but the ones that are make a big impact. The British culture is not what it used to be. The Brits fault as well by the way!! And the only Muslim country I have seen slagged off is Saudi Arabia, which is brutal to say the least.

Yeh but you use Saudi Arabia to imply that muslim countries are like that and that they are like that because of the religion, not true. Then you use it as an example of why we should take a leaf out of their book and do the same. hypocritical. You 3 say pretty much the same things, and its not that I wont accept your opinion, I wont accept ignorance and lies

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4137990.stm most Brits back multiculturalism

[InOne]

Yeh but you use Saudi Arabia to imply that muslim countries are like that and that they are like that because of the religion, not true. Then you use it as an example of why we should take a leaf out of their book and do the same. hypocritical. You 3 say pretty much the same things, and its not that I wont accept your opinion, I wont accept ignorance and lies

Well seen as Saudi is under Sharia law it is to do with Religion, so that is not a lie. Who is implying anything??? You putting words into my mouth. And what would I have to gain by lying?
So what does it mean to be British to you then Netto?

[NettoSuperstar!]

Well seen as Saudi is under Sharia law it is to do with Religion, so that is not a lie. Who is implying anything??? You putting words into my mouth. And what would I have to gain by lying?
So what does it mean to be British to you then Netto?

To me being British is about tolerance, being educated, wanting to work towards a better society, desire to take care of the most vunerable, good sense of humour, culturally rich and diverse and open to new experiences and constantly developing as people and as a society...and you?

[InOne]

To me being British is about tolerance, being educated, wanting to work towards a better society, desire to take care of the most vunerable, good sense of humour, culturally rich and diverse and open to new experiences a nd developing as people and as a society...and you?

Living peacefully, helping people in need, welcoming people and other cultures as long as they are greatful. Sense of community, being proud of who you are.

Most of the 1st generation immigrants were great like in the 50's 60's and 70's and stuff, they came for a better life and did well in Britian. It is the 2nd and 3rd Generation who seemed to have a problem. And the new influx if immigrants do not have the same work values as their previous generations did in the 70's ect. Apart from the Polish, most seem to want whatever they can get. There was a guy a who was born in Sri Lanka, has lived here for 18 years and owned his own post office. He refused to serve anyone who did not speak English, and he was driven out of his home. If only they all had the same mentality as him. Do you agree they should be able to speak English if they are here?

[NettoSuperstar!]

Living peacefully, helping people in need, welcoming people and other cultures as long as they are greatful. Sense of community, being proud of who you are.

Most of the 1st generation immigrants were great like in the 50's 60's and 70's and stuff, they came for a better life and did well in Britian. It is the 2nd and 3rd Generation who seemed to have a problem. And the new influx if immigrants do not have the same work values as their previous generations did in the 70's ect. Apart from the Polish, most seem to want whatever they can get. There was a guy a who was born in Sri Lanka, has lived here for 18 years and owned his own post office. He refused to serve anyone who did not speak English, and he was driven out of his home. If only they all had the same mentality as him. Do you agree they should be able to speak English if they are here?

Most immigrants come here to work to correct you there, and generally do the jobs we dont want to...it would be silly not to learn the language and most people who come here do. Some Brits go abroad and dont learn the langauge, infact most Brits on holiday wont speak the language of the country theyre in...it cuts both ways...none of us as groups are perfect but theres no one group that is better than any other

[InOne]

Most immigrants come here to work to correct you there, and generally do the jobs we dont want to...it would be silly not to learn the language and most people who come here do. Some Brits go abroad and dont learn the langauge, infact most Brits on holiday wont speak the language of the country theyre in...it cuts both ways

Brits don't mass immigrate anywhere though do they. Why you always comparing it to how bad the Brits are?

[NettoSuperstar!]

Brits don't mass immigrate anywhere though do they. Why you always comparing it to how bad the Brits are?

because we are fortunate to live in a democratic and prosperous society, others are not so fortunate. Im saying we are not perfect as a group of people just like everyone else

[InOne]

because we are fortunate to live in a democratic and prosperous society, others are not so fortunate. Im saying we are not perfect as a group of people just like everyone else

Yes but it almost seems you have a stereotypical view of loud lautish racist Brits

[arista]

Right so muslims born in Britain have no right to celebrate their culture in the country they were born in? What exactly should they and shouldnt they be allowed to do? And how is your life affected by it really? Im sure you get outraged everytime you pick up the Daily Mail (cant be good for you blood pressure!), but in reality is your life affected by others having cultural and religious freedom? Is you getting on with your cultural business affected?


The Daily Mail is only one of the Papers doing this News Story.

It was on the Wright Stuff this morning, a Second time.
They confirned Italy may do the same Vote.



Justice.

[NettoSuperstar!]

Yes but it almost seems you have a stereotypical view of loud lautish racist Brits

I dont, like I said most Brits arent like that

[NettoSuperstar!]

The Daily Mail is only one of the Papers doing this News Story.

It was on the Wright Stuff this morning, a Second time.
They confirned Italy may do the same Vote.



Justice.

Good old Daily Mail eh Arista lol...Well Italy has a history of fascism

[arista]

Good old Daily Mail eh Arista lol...Well Italy has a history of fascism


Yes Italy does
but it shows that giving the Public a Vote
is the Way Forward.


Sign Of The Times.

[andyman]

Don't worry Arista, we will get them muslims..



..Now watch this drive.

[NettoSuperstar!]

Yes Italy does
but it shows that giving the Public a Vote
is the Way Forward.


Sign Of The Times.

No Arista

Keep on keepin on

[WOMBAI]

because we are fortunate to live in a democratic and prosperous society, others are not so fortunate. Im saying we are not perfect as a group of people just like everyone else

YES!!! Because the British made it that way! British culture allowed democracy and economic growth. A lot of British have been and many still are religious - but they haven't let religous beliefs and superstition hold them back and prevent economic progression.

The Muslim religion and culture created the dictorial and impoverished societies that they left in the first place.

[WOMBAI]

Right so muslims born in Britain have no right to celebrate their culture in the country they were born in? What exactly should they and shouldnt they be allowed to do? And how is your life affected by it really? Im sure you get outraged everytime you pick up the Daily Mail (cant be good for you blood pressure!), but in reality is your life affected by others having cultural and religious freedom? Is you getting on with your cultural business affected?

Of course they can celebrate their culture - just not as publicly as they would like - why do they feel the need to 'shout it from the rooftops' all the time.

And as a nurse - I know all about blood pressure - and can assure you mine is fine!

[InOne]

I dont, like I said most Brits arent like that

Well, you seem to think it is only me wombai LT and arista that share these views. Well it is not, and it's not a minoirty either. You can bounce 'racism' about all you like, but all we do is tell it how we see it.

[Tom4784]

Of course they can celebrate their culture - just not as publicly as they would like - why do they feel the need to 'shout it from the rooftops' all the time.

And as a nurse - I know all about blood pressure - and can assure you mine is fine!

Does this just apply to immigrants or everyone? Say if a totally Brittish person decided one day to convert to Islam would he or she be allowed to celebrate their religion since thy were born within our culture? Or wouldn't it be allowed as they'll be classed as the same as those evil upstarting muslims that want to destroy our culture?

How long does a person need to live here before they are classed as a Brittish citizen? Because a few posts back someone was slamming 2nd and 3rd generation muslims, surely if you are born and raised here you are as brittish as everyone else? (This one's not aimed at you Wombai as I think it was InOne who said that)

I just wanted a little clarification before I make a point.

[InOne]

Does this just apply to immigrants or everyone? Say if a totally Brittish person decided one day to convert to Islam would he or she be allowed to celebrate their religion since thy were born within our culture? Or wouldn't it be allowed as they'll be classed as the same as those evil upstarting muslims that want to destroy our culture?

How long does a person need to live here before they are classed as a Brittish citizen? Because a few posts back someone was slamming 2nd and 3rd generation muslims, surely if you are born and raised here you are as brittish as everyone else? (This one's not aimed at you Wombai as I think it was InOne who said that)

I just wanted a little clarification before I make a point.


I was slamming their attitude, they are the ones who have the most identity crisis. And I didn't say Muslims, it was immigrants. Well being born here and raised it could make you British, but it all depends on how they class themselves. With Muslims especially who live in Ghettos, alot will probaby class themselves as where their parents come from, as they don't really intergrate. It is becoming the say as the way some Jews cut themselves off in London and Manchester.

[WOMBAI]

Does this just apply to immigrants or everyone? Say if a totally Brittish person decided one day to convert to Islam would he or she be allowed to celebrate their religion since thy were born within our culture? Or wouldn't it be allowed as they'll be classed as the same as those evil upstarting muslims that want to destroy our culture?

How long does a person need to live here before they are classed as a Brittish citizen? Because a few posts back someone was slamming 2nd and 3rd generation muslims, surely if you are born and raised here you are as brittish as everyone else? (This one's not aimed at you Wombai as I think it was InOne who said that)

I just wanted a little clarification before I make a point.

If you asked most British Muslims what they most consider themselves to be - British or Muslim - I would bet most, if not all, would say Muslim.

[InOne]

If you asked most British Muslims what they most consider themselves to be - British or Muslim - I would bet most, if not all, would say Muslim.

Exactly, think they even did a poll on it.

[NettoSuperstar!]

Exactly, think they even did a poll on it.

Find that poll then! The poll I found showed most muslims celebrated being British

[NettoSuperstar!]

YES!!! Because the British made it that way! British culture allowed democracy and economic growth. A lot of British have been and many still are religious - but they haven't let religous beliefs and superstition hold them back and prevent economic progression.

The Muslim religion and culture created the dictorial and impoverished societies that they left in the first place.

Thats to do with social and historical factors largely, including education, a history of being invaded by different cultures, military might and power over most of the world...not to do with religion itself

[NettoSuperstar!]

I was slamming their attitude, they are the ones who have the most identity crisis. And I didn't say Muslims, it was immigrants. Well being born here and raised it could make you British, but it all depends on how they class themselves. With Muslims especially who live in Ghettos, alot will probaby class themselves as where their parents come from, as they don't really intergrate. It is becoming the say as the way some Jews cut themselves off in London and Manchester.

people dont cut themselves off, they live in areas where there is familiarity, work, family, people dont discriminate and treat them differently...not because they dont want to mix....more like the other way round there

[NettoSuperstar!]

Well, you seem to think it is only me wombai LT and arista that share these views. Well it is not, and it's not a minoirty either. You can bounce 'racism' about all you like, but all we do is tell it how we see it.

yeh "how you see it" your blinkered and uneducated view...and I see more people arguing against it than for it

[WOMBAI]

Thats to do with social and historical factors largely, including education, a history of being invaded by different cultures, military might and power over most of the world...not to do with religion itself


All those mentioned above are part of culture - our culture is what gives us the lifestlye we lead now! We have EARNED it!

[WOMBAI]

yeh "how you see it" your blinkered and uneducated view...and I see more people arguing against it than for it

You see what you want to see - nothing more, nothing less!

[InOne]

people dont cut themselves off, they live in areas where there is familiarity, work, family, people dont discriminate and treat them differently...not because they dont want to mix....more like the other way round there

Other cultures have managed to intergrate well over the years. Yet Muslims still choose to live seculded.

[InOne]

yeh "how you see it" your blinkered and uneducated view...and I see more people arguing against it than for it

So you say, but for some reason you seem to think you're speaking for 'most' in Britain, when you're clearly not!

[NettoSuperstar!]

All those mentioned above are part of culture - our culture is what gives us the lifestlye we lead now! We have EARNED it!

Yes and muslims have been part of our culture for some time too. Part of the reason we are progressive as a nation is because we have been exposed to different cultures over the years

[NettoSuperstar!]

So you say, but for some reason you seem to think you're speaking for 'most' in Britain, when you're clearly not!

Well so far Im the only one whos managed to find any evidence that I do..."clearly not" lol FAIL

[NettoSuperstar!]

Other cultures have managed to intergrate well over the years. Yet Muslims still choose to live seculded.

"muslims still choose to live secluded" Wrong, muslims (on the whole) havent any more than anyone else.

[NettoSuperstar!]

The Swiss have a piss poor record on womens rights and they have the cheek to use that as part of their argument for banning minarets! Women didnt get the right to vote til 1971 and some didnt even get the vote til 1991 (yes your reading that right 1991!!)

http://www.swisster.ch/news/un-raises-further-concerns-over-swiss-womens-rights

http://www.awid.org/eng/Women-s-Rights-in-the-News/Women-s-Rights-in-the-News/Switzerland-Sharp-Criticism-Follows-Swiss-Vote-to-Ban-New-Minarets

[Niamh.]

The Swiss have a piss poor record on womens rights and they have the cheek to use that as part of their argument for banning minarets! Women didnt get the right to vote til 1971 and some didnt even get the vote til 1991 (yes your reading that right 1991!!)

http://www.swisster.ch/news/un-raises-further-concerns-over-swiss-womens-rights

http://www.awid.org/eng/Women-s-Rights-in-the-News/Women-s-Rights-in-the-News/Switzerland-Sharp-Criticism-Follows-Swiss-Vote-to-Ban-New-Minarets

wow!! That's crazy isn't it??? I never knew that.

[NettoSuperstar!]

You see what you want to see - nothing more, nothing less!

No I go out of my way to see the truth of the situation, not the fear and hysteria about muslims the far right want to portray

[NettoSuperstar!]

wow!! That's crazy isn't it??? I never knew that.

Isnt it? I only heard it today on the radio, bunch of hypocrites

[arista]

The Swiss have a piss poor record on womens rights and they have the cheek to use that as part of their argument for banning minarets! Women didnt get the right to vote til 1971 and some didnt even get the vote til 1991 (yes your reading that right 1991!!)




So What
Its there Right.

[WOMBAI]

wow!! That's crazy isn't it??? I never knew that.

And that proves what exactly! There you go getting all worked up and excited that you found some information that apparently shows that Swiss women didn't get the vote until recently - but even if true - what exactly is your point?

Women in Switzerland today have freedom and equality! They have choices in how they live their lives. That has bugger all to do with whether Switzerland as a whole wants to protect the religious and cultural identity of their own country!

Some people do get so carried away! :joker:

[WOMBAI]

The Swiss have a piss poor record on womens rights and they have the cheek to use that as part of their argument for banning minarets! Women didnt get the right to vote til 1971 and some didnt even get the vote til 1991 (yes your reading that right 1991!!)

http://www.swisster.ch/news/un-raises-further-concerns-over-swiss-womens-rights

http://www.awid.org/eng/Women-s-Rights-in-the-News/Women-s-Rights-in-the-News/Switzerland-Sharp-Criticism-Follows-Swiss-Vote-to-Ban-New-Minarets

And that proves what exactly! There you go getting all worked up and excited that you found some information that apparently shows that Swiss women didn't get the vote until recently - but even if true - what exactly is your point?

Women in Switzerland today have freedom and equality! They have choices in how they live their lives. That has bugger all to do with whether Switzerland as a whole wants to protect the religious and cultural identity of their own country!

Some people do get so carried away! :joker:

[NettoSuperstar!]

And that proves what exactly! There you go getting all worked up and excited that you found some information that apparently shows that Swiss women didn't get the vote until recently - but even if true - what exactly is your point?

Women in Switzerland today have freedom and equality! They have choices in how they live their lives. That has bugger all to do with whether Switzerland as a whole wants to protect the religious and cultural identity of their own country!

Some people do get so carried away! :joker:

Shes not getting worked up and excited about anything lol! Its a fact that is quite astounding to anyone. And the point is the oppression of women has little to do with religion, it occurs everywhere, that is just an excuse some people use! The Swiss continue to have a poor record on womens rights also.

[Niamh.]

And that proves what exactly! There you go getting all worked up and excited that you found some information that apparently shows that Swiss women didn't get the vote until recently - but even if true - what exactly is your point?

Women in Switzerland today have freedom and equality! They have choices in how they live their lives. That has bugger all to do with whether Switzerland as a whole wants to protect the religious and cultural identity of their own country!

Some people do get so carried away! :joker:

I wasn't getting worked up and excited.

[WOMBAI]

I wasn't getting worked up and excited.

Sorry - I clicked on the wrong post. My response was mean't for Netto!

[Niamh.]

Sorry - I clicked on the wrong post. My response was mean't for Netto!

lol, ok then

[InOne]

Well so far Im the only one whos managed to find any evidence that I do..."clearly not" lol FAIL

Yep fail yourself, go back to your multicultural buble

[NettoSuperstar!]

Yep fail yourself, go back to your multicultural buble

Er no, wheres your evidence? At least I have some...and if you take TIBB as a microcosm of society generally (lol I know, but anyway) Ive seen more people on here agree with multiculturalism than disagree! And the reason we are progressive as a nation is because of the cultural influences over the years. We are where we are largely because of the involvement of other cultures

[WOMBAI]

Er no, wheres your evidence? At least I have some...and if you take TIBB as a microcosm of society generally (lol I know, but anyway) Ive seen more people on here agree with multiculturalism than disagree! And the reason we are progressive as a nation is because of the cultural influences over the years. We are where we are largely because of the involvement of other cultures

And where's your evidence for your comment! :joker: Works both ways!

[InOne]

Er no, wheres your evidence? At least I have some...and if you take TIBB as a microcosm of society generally (lol I know, but anyway) Ive seen more people on here agree with multiculturalism than disagree! And the reason we are progressive as a nation is because of the cultural influences over the years. We are where we are largely because of the involvement of other cultures

Multiculturalism at this time is not working. I don't support BNP, but there is a reason they got so many votes.

[InOne]

"muslims still choose to live secluded" Wrong, muslims (on the whole) havent any more than anyone else.

Hmmm nah I don't think so. They clearly live in their own areas. Hindus, Sikhs, Catholics, Jews have have done it fine. Yes the Jews are quite segregated but they don't cause a fuss. Why can't the muslims do it?

[WOMBAI]

Hmmm nah I don't think so. They clearly live in their own areas. Hindus, Sikhs, Catholics, Jews have have done it fine. Yes the Jews are quite segregated but they don't cause a fuss. Why can't the muslims do it?

I have no problems with the Jewish religion because as you say 'they don't cause a fuss' - they just get on with living their lives in their way - without expecting constant 'special considerations' and rubbing our noses in their religion all the time.

[InOne]

I have no problems with the Jewish religion because as you say 'they don't cause a fuss' - they just get on with living their lives in their way - without expecting constant 'special considerations'.

Exactly, I really don't get why we feel to bend over backwards for Islam :conf: Fear of terrorism, who knows. But having home grown terrorists is where you have to stop and think there might be something wrong. You know that film 'Road to Guantanamo'? About the British Muslims who ended up there? They went on a programme called Lie Lab and admitted they'd been to the training camps and stuff.

[WOMBAI]

Exactly, I really don't get why we feel to bend over backwards for Islam :conf: Fear of terrorism, who knows. But having home grown terrorists is where you have to stop and think there might be something wrong. You know that film 'Road to Guantanamo'? About the British Muslims who ended up there? They went on a programme called Lie Lab and admitted they'd been to the training camps and stuff.

I know - I often ask myself the question - where do they get those hateful feelings from? Yes, of course, there are a lot of external influences - but what about what they get from the home. People say they are in the minority - maybe they are - but it just seems to me that if they had any respect for their parents and their feelings and had been brought up to respect the country they lived in - that would outweigh the external influences. So I can't help but conclude that maybe, in some cases, they are only repeating what they hear in the home.

I know a lot of youngsters rebel against their parents - but still think that on such a serious issue - they would have more respect for what their parents had taught them - if their parents did not support terrorism.

[InOne]

I know - I often ask myself the question - where do they get those hateful feelings from? Yes, of course, there are a lot of external influences - but what about what they get from the home. People say they are in the minority - maybe they are - but it just seems to me that if they had any respect for their parents and their feelings and had been brought up to respect the country they lived in - that would outweigh the external influences. So I can't help but conclude that maybe, in some cases, they are only repeating what they hear in the home.

I know a lot of youngsters rebel against their parents - but still think that on such a serious issue - they would have more respect for what their parents had taught them - if their parents did not support terrorism.

I think sometimes it is to do with identity crisis really. But what shocked me was how normal the 7/7 bombers really were, they weren't icolated or anything, just shows you anyone can get lead into it. Thing is with Muslims with the whole 'sisters' and 'brothers' thing, they see themselves all as united. So wherever Muslims are in a war or whatever, they seem to take personal offence.

[WOMBAI]

I think sometimes it is to do with identity crisis really. But what shocked me was how normal the 7/7 bombers really were, they weren't icolated or anything, just shows you anyone can get lead into it. Thing is with Muslims with the whole 'sisters' and 'brothers' thing, they see themselves all as united. So wherever Muslims are in a war or whatever, they seem to take personal offence.

They do come across as being extremely over-sensitive and take offence at the slightest thing - but then have the audacity to condemn us if we become 'sensitive' to the 'forcefulness' of their religion and its practices - that conveniently gets labelled as racism. I just find myself feeling very distrustful of them and their motives - they have, after all, given us good reason to feel that way! So I for one - make no apologies for feeling that way!

[InOne]

They do come across as being extremely over-sensitive and take offence at the slightest thing - but then have the audacity to condemn us if we become 'sensitive' to the 'forcefulness' of their religion and its practices - that conveniently gets labelled as racism. I just find myself feeling very distrustful of them and their motives - they have, after all, given us good reason to feel that way! So I for one - make no apologies for feeling that way!

Yep, they play the race card all too quickly. People are starting to see through it now.

[Max Robespierre]

Islam is the superstition of dusty desert types. It has no place in the modern world.

[NettoSuperstar!]

And where's your evidence for your comment! :joker: Works both ways!

Yeh I produced a poll that said most Britains had faith in multiculturalism etc and as I just said...A B C D E F G...

For about the 4th time...http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4137990.stm

[WOMBAI]

Yeh I produced a poll that said most Britains had faith in multiculturalism etc and as I just said...A B C D E F G...

I haven't seen any such evidence!

[InOne]

Muliticulturalrism does not work.

[NettoSuperstar!]

Muliticulturalrism does not work.

Well if you want to be stuck in the dark ages stay there

[arista]

Well if you want to be stuck in the dark ages stay there


We are not in the Dark Ages.
But we need More Voting Power in England.

[NettoSuperstar!]

We are not in the Dark Ages.
But we need My Voting Power in England.

Your voting power! Is that one of your super powers? Vote man

[WOMBAI]

Well if you want to be stuck in the dark ages stay there

Hypocritical or what! Are you serious? You talk about dark ages when you support the Muslim religion! Is there anything more in the dark ages than the Muslim religion? Multiculturalism can never work as long as that remains the case! It has to be give and take on BOTH sides!

[arista]

Hypocritical or what! Are you serious? You talk about dark ages when you support the Muslim religion! Is there anything more in the dark ages than the Muslim religion? Multiculturalism can never work as long as that remains the case! It has to be give and take on BOTH sides!


Bang On Right Wombai.

[Alf]

Well if you want to be stuck in the dark ages stay there
we will be back in the dark ages soon, when the muslims rule

[NettoSuperstar!]

we will be back in the dark ages soon, when the muslims rule

LoL yeh riiiight, theyre taking over with their primeaval ways agggghhhhh! My culture my culture, theyre taking away my culture, everywhere I turn theres muslims disrespecting my culture and enforcing their mideaval ways on me help help! Im forver bending over backwards to accomodate bloody muslims!! Is noone taking this seriously!!? EDIT: please note the large dose of sarcasm that went into the making of this post

This argument is laughable, I take no furthur part in the insanity

[Alf]

theyre taking over with their primeaval ways agggghhhhh! My culture my culture, theyre taking away my culture, everywhere I turn theres muslims disrespecting my culture and enforcing their mideaval ways on me help help! Im forver bending over backwards to accomodate bloody muslims!! Is noone taking this seriously!!?


bugging you aswell is it?

[InOne]

Well Netto you always have to take it to the extreme to get your point across.