View Full Version : German state bans Burka.
Chuck
04-02-2011, 02:51 PM
Im not sure if this subject has been debated previously, excuse me if it has.
As you all know France banned burka not a long ago and now the German state of Hesse has became the first region of the country to ban Muslin women from wearing burkas.
I've read this on:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1353579/Burka-ban-Angela-Merkels-German-state-risks-Muslim-anger.html
And judging by the comments I've read, it seems that most of readers wish the same would happen in the UK.
What's your opinion on that?
patsylimerick
04-02-2011, 02:52 PM
Of course it should be banned. Apparently it's unacceptable to offend an entire religion - but perfectly fine to oppress an entire gender.
arista
04-02-2011, 02:53 PM
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/02/04/article-1353579-0D0AA928000005DC-450_233x319.jpg
its a start.
I think a ban could be Fun.
Zippy
04-02-2011, 02:54 PM
I think they are a symbol of oppression. Totally sexist and send out a disgusting message that shouldnt be tolerated in this country.
What are our children learning from seeing women dressed like this? Take your backwards culture back to your own backwards country.
Yeah this was debated at length here before lol. I would be totally against legalising against someones right to wear what they want, and someones right to express their religion how they want. Ironically it's normally feminists who want a ban, the ones who call for female liberation but then feel they should dictate to people what is and what isnt acceptable for woman to wear
patsylimerick
04-02-2011, 03:00 PM
Yeah this was debated at length here before lol. I would be totally against legalising against someones right to wear what they want, and someones right to express their religion how they want. Ironically it's normally feminists who want a ban, the ones who call for female liberation but then feel they should dictate to people what is and what isnt acceptable for woman to wear
:conf: You're either fishing here or you're really that obtuse. By your logic, women being required to cover themselves from head to foot is liberating them. The mind boggles....................................
Tom4784
04-02-2011, 03:00 PM
Yeah this was debated at length here before lol. I would be totally against legalising against someones right to wear what they want, and someones right to express their religion how they want. Ironically it's normally feminists who want a ban, the ones who call for the liberation of woman but then feel they should dictate to people what is and what isnt acceptable clothing
I agree with this really. If it's the woman's choice to do so then she should be allowed to wear it. There's obviously some places where it shouldn't be worn though as they can be used to hide your identity so in those cases it should be treated like a hoody or something.
Zippy
04-02-2011, 03:02 PM
Yeah this was debated at length here before lol. I would be totally against legalising against someones right to wear what they want, and someones right to express their religion how they want. Ironically it's normally feminists who want a ban, the ones who call for the liberation of woman but then feel they should dictate to people what is and what isnt acceptable for woman to wear
It's not about clothing. This garments sole purpose is to hide women away. Its offensive and demeaning to the female race.
Its not even a religious requirement. Even if it were I'd still be opposed.
And its damn creepy speaking to just a pair of eyes through a slit. Men wouldnt be allowed to go round in balaclavas. Certainly not in shops, airports etc.
patsylimerick
04-02-2011, 03:02 PM
I agree with this really. If it's the woman's choice to do so then she should be allowed to wear it. There's obviously some places where it shouldn't be worn though as they can be used to hide your identity so in those cases it should be treated like a hoody or something.
Take a few minutes before you respond, but do you GENUINELY think it's EVER a woman's true choice, the wearing of a burkha? Really, now?
Tom4784
04-02-2011, 03:05 PM
:conf: You're either fishing here or you're really that obtuse. By your logic, women being required to cover themselves from head to foot is liberating them. The mind boggles....................................
You've missed the point completely. He was essentially saying that if it's the woman's choice to wear a Burkha then by banning it you're stripping her of the liberty to wear what she wants. Not that the Burkha represents liberation, just that it's their choice to wear it or not.
Tom4784
04-02-2011, 03:07 PM
Take a few minutes before you respond, but do you GENUINELY think it's EVER a woman's true choice, the wearing of a burkha? Really, now?
I think in rare cases it isn't but more often then not it is. I don't agree with what the Burkha stands for but if someone chooses to wear it then that's their decision.
patsylimerick
04-02-2011, 03:10 PM
You've missed the point completely. He was essentially saying that if it's the woman's choice to wear a Burkha then by banning it you're stripping her of the liberty to wear what she wants. Not that the Burkha represents liberation, just that it's their choice to wear it or not.
I think in rare cases it isn't but more often then not it is. I don't agree with what the Burkha stands for but if someone chooses to wear it then that's their decision.
I'm going to assume you're a man, because I really don't think a woman could post the above and I also think it's a smashing illustration of the divide of understanding between the sexes. Women who are kicked in the head on a weekly basis stay in the same house as the men who do it. Do you think that's because they like it? And don't tell me it's an entirely different thing. It's exactly the same. The burkha is just the thin end of the wedge and, for some bizarre reason, an edge that's being ignored.
I'm not a feminist by the furthest stretch of the imagination but personally I believe the Burka symbolises oppression of women. I understand that their religion demands modesty, but to cover up every part of their body including their hair and head is just ridiculous in my opinion.
:conf: You're either fishing here or you're really that obtuse. By your logic, women being required to cover themselves from head to foot is liberating them. The mind boggles....................................
Oh stop with this whole utter disbelief act that you put on every time someone disagrees with you.
Like Dezzy said you missed the point, by banning the burka you are denying the woman to right to make a decision on this for herself, it's about the freedom to choose and not imposing your own narrow-minded views on other people
It's quite arrogant of you to presume that all woman are being forced to wear one as well, you cant legalise against something based on an irrational presumption. Maybe some do get forced to wear it, but many others do not.
It's not about clothing. This garments sole purpose is to hide women away. Its offensive and demeaning to the female race.
Its not even a religious requirement. Even if it were I'd still be opposed.
And its damn creepy speaking to just a pair of eyes through a slit. Men wouldnt be allowed to go round in balaclavas. Certainly not in shops, airports etc.
It's only offensive and demeaning in your eyes though, in theirs it is a way of expressing their religion, a way of staying true to their faith.
Zippy
04-02-2011, 03:13 PM
A Bhurka is not a fashion statement. Lets be clear about that before we talk about choice.
would you be happy to see these women walk around with balls and chains round their ankles? just because they chose to?
It's not just about them. Its the message theyre sending out. We don't need children seeing women covered like that.
Crimson Dynamo
04-02-2011, 03:14 PM
Yes it should be banned and all mosques shut, they would be opened again after we go through a 5 year period with no muslim sponsored terrorism
arista
04-02-2011, 03:16 PM
"then by banning it you're stripping her of the liberty to wear what she wants."
Yes Dezzy its wicked.
Shasown
04-02-2011, 03:17 PM
Sometimes I wish the wearing of the burka could be forced on some of the fuglies who come down from the hills where LT lives.
A Bhurka is not a fashion statement. Lets be clear about that before we talk about choice.
would you be happy to see these women walk around with balls and chains round their ankles? just because they chose to?
It's not just about them. Its the message theyre sending out. We don't need children seeing women covered like that.
Yip,that's a good point.. I wouldn't like to have to explain to my children that another human being cannot let herself be seen unless in private in the company of her husband/family.
arista
04-02-2011, 03:18 PM
Sometimes I wish the wearing of the burka could be forced on some of the fuglies who come down from the hills where LT lives.
Yes that would be Funky
Tom4784
04-02-2011, 03:25 PM
I'm going to assume you're a man, because I really don't think a woman could post the above and I also think it's a smashing illustration of the divide of understanding between the sexes. Women who are kicked in the head on a weekly basis stay in the same house as the men who do it. Do you think that's because they like it? And don't tell me it's an entirely different thing. It's exactly the same. The burkha is just the thin end of the wedge and, for some bizarre reason, an edge that's being ignored.
My gender doesn't matter and it's quite ironic that you've brought it into the discussion considering what it's about. Quite hypocritical.
I think you're argument is ridiculously stereotypical and overly emotional. Islam does not equal domestic abuse, I'm not saying that it doesn't exist I'm just saying it's wrong to tar an entire group of diverse people with the same brush. Some women WILL choose to wear the Burkha, some won't. The point I'm making is that it should be THEIR decision to choose either way, not anybody else's. You seem to think that I'm some mysogynistic man who's pro Burkha and I'm not. I don't like the connotations of it BUT I believe in Women having the liberty of making their own choices.
My gender doesn't matter and it's quite ironic that you've brought it into the discussion considering what it's about. Quite hypocritical.
I think you're argument is ridiculously stereotypical and overly emotional. Islam does not equal domestic abuse, I'm not saying that it doesn't exist I'm just saying it's wrong to tar an entire group of diverse people with the same brush. Some women WILL choose to wear the Burkha, some won't. The point I'm making is that it should be THEIR decision to choose either way, not anybody else's. You seem to think that I'm some mysogynistic man who's pro Burkha and I'm not. I don't like the connotations of it BUT I believe in Women having the liberty of making their own choices.
These women don't know what liberty is though.. They don't know any better and are never ever free to make their own choices. From birth they are merely know as a daughter of such and such or the wife of such and such.
Most have "masters" all their lives
patsylimerick
04-02-2011, 03:30 PM
My gender doesn't matter and it's quite ironic that you've brought it into the discussion considering what it's about. Quite hypocritical.
I think you're argument is ridiculously stereotypical and overly emotional. Islam does not equal domestic abuse, I'm not saying that it doesn't exist I'm just saying it's wrong to tar an entire group of diverse people with the same brush.
The point I'm making is that it should be THEIR decision to choose either way, not anybody else's. You seem to think that I'm some mysogynistic man who's pro Burkha and I'm not. I don't like the connotations of it BUT I believe in Women having the liberty of making their own choices.
BIB 1. How and why is that hypocritical. Of course it's an issue about gender and the oppression of women by men. What the hell else would it be about?
BIB 2. See now, that's just ridiculous. Where did I say that? Oppression equates to domestic violence. Of course it does. Try responding to what's written instead of what you'd like me to have written.
BIB 3. But they don't have that liberty. That's the problem.
patsylimerick
04-02-2011, 03:31 PM
Oh stop with this whole utter disbelief act that you put on every time someone disagrees with you.
Like Dezzy said you missed the point, by banning the burka you are denying the woman to right to make a decision on this for herself, it's about the freedom to choose and not imposing your own narrow-minded views on other people
It's quite arrogant of you to presume that all woman are being forced to wear one as well, you cant legalise against something based on an irrational presumption. Maybe some do get forced to wear it, but many others do not.
It's only offensive and demeaning in your eyes though, in theirs it is a way of expressing their religion, a way of staying true to their faith.
Ah, well, that's OK then.......
These women don't know what liberty is though.. They don't know any better and are never ever free to make their own choices. From birth they are merely know as a daughter of such and such or the wife of such and such.
Most have "masters" all their lives
But that goes back to the point about tarring all of them with the same brush, creating the image that all burkha wearers must really be oppressed females who have been forced to wear this garment and just havent realised it yet..
Shasown
04-02-2011, 03:33 PM
So going by the arguments against women wearing the burka because the nasty man of the house made them cover up, if the burka is banned doesnt it just mean same nasty man will keep the woman indoors and send young (as in of pre burka wearing age) girls out to do the shopping etc?
So by banning the burka we create domestic prisoners. An ideal solution to misogynistic religious practices.
Education not legislation.
Zippy
04-02-2011, 03:34 PM
these women do not choose to wear this from a neutral standpoint. They do so because its been drummed into them from birth that they should be hidden away.
well that message is abhorent and a civilised country should be intolerant towards it.
Ah, well, that's OK then.......
Can you start responding to the whole of posts please? Instead of just addressing one bolded line?
As I said directly before that bit, you are going by a presumption and a mass generalisation. You're basically saying that woman are not capable of making this decision for themselves and if they do make a choice to wear one, they must be oppressed, and been forced into doing so. Some Jews maybe get forced to wear the kippah by their parents, should that now be banned?
So going by the arguments against women wearing the burka because the nasty man of the house made them cover up, if the burka is banned doesnt it just mean same nasty man will keep the woman indoors and send young (as in of pre burka wearing age) girls out to do the shopping etc?
So by banning the burka we create domestic prisoners. An ideal solution to misogynistic religious practices.
Education not legislation.
Yeah that's a good point
patsylimerick
04-02-2011, 03:41 PM
Can you start responding to the whole of posts please? Instead of just addressing one bolded line?
As I said directly before that bit, you are going by a presumption and a mass generalisation. You're basically saying that woman are not capable of making this decision for themselves and if they do make a choice to wear one, they must be oppressed, and been forced into doing so. Some Jews maybe get forced to wear the kippah by their parents, should that now be banned?
No, because it's not gender specific and it's not a direct reference to the demand for subservience from women.
Again, where, exactly, did I say that the women aren't "capable" of making the decision. Of course they're capable. They're societally oppressed, religiously oppressed and, sadly, oppressed by every male in their household. The wearing of a burkha is the surrender of the spirit, and I really feel sad and sorry for anyone who won't or can't see that.
But that goes back to the point about tarring all of them with the same brush, creating the image that all burkha wearers must really be oppressed females who have been forced to wear this garment and just havent realised it yet..
To be honest.. to bring a girl up with the belief that she must cover herself from head to foot IS oppresion. Many aren't forced but just accept it, as this has always been their way. But whether they feel forced or wear one willingly or not, surely the whole thing just symbolises oppresion in it's purest form? something which , in our civilised world should not be encouraged?
patsylimerick
04-02-2011, 03:42 PM
So going by the arguments against women wearing the burka because the nasty man of the house made them cover up, if the burka is banned doesnt it just mean same nasty man will keep the woman indoors and send young (as in of pre burka wearing age) girls out to do the shopping etc?
So by banning the burka we create domestic prisoners. An ideal solution to misogynistic religious practices.
Education not legislation.
The acceptance of a visual representation of gender oppression is a tacit nod of approval for that attitude and the practices associated with it.
InOne
04-02-2011, 03:42 PM
There would be too much uproar in the UK if it happened. And would just give extremists an excuse for another attack,
patsylimerick
04-02-2011, 03:43 PM
To be honest.. to bring a girl up with the belief that she must cover herself from head to foot IS oppresion. Many aren't forced but just accept it, as this has always been their way. But whether they feel forced or wear one willingly or not, surely the whole thing just symbolises oppresion in it's purest form? something which , in our civilised world should not be encouraged?
Absolutely spot on.
Can you start responding to the whole of posts please? Instead of just addressing one bolded line?
As I said directly before that bit, you are going by a presumption and a mass generalisation. You're basically saying that woman are not capable of making this decision for themselves and if they do make a choice to wear one, they must be oppressed, and been forced into doing so. Some Jews maybe get forced to wear the kippah by their parents, should that now be banned?
Jews don't treat the female sex as something of lesser value than a man
patsylimerick
04-02-2011, 03:44 PM
There would be too much uproar in the UK if it happened. And would just give extremists an excuse for another attack,
Sadly, this is true. But it's a terrible thing that the rights of swathes of young girls have to be sacrificed to maintain what is already a very fragile peace.
Crimson Dynamo
04-02-2011, 03:48 PM
and if we ban the Burkah then we could also ban trainers
Shasown
04-02-2011, 03:49 PM
The acceptance of a visual representation of gender oppression is a tacit nod of approval for that attitude and the practices associated with it.
I am not denying that.
But once again you havent addressed the point in quiestion. What happens if in some cases the head of the muslim household simply confines the female who would have been allowed out in a burqa to the house?
InOne
04-02-2011, 03:50 PM
Sadly, this is true. But it's a terrible thing that the rights of swathes of young girls have to be sacrificed to maintain what is already a very fragile peace.
Well as long as it isn't affecting anyone else it doesn't matter really. It's easy to explain to a kid about it. If we tried to intervene or anything we'd only get abuse, so just let them get on with it.
No, because it's not gender specific and it's not a direct reference to the demand for subservience from women.
Again, where, exactly, did I say that the women aren't "capable" of making the decision. Of course they're capable. They're societally oppressed, religiously oppressed and, sadly, oppressed by every male in their household. The wearing of a burkha is the surrender of the spirit, and I really feel sad and sorry for anyone who won't or can't see that.
It might not be gender exclusive but it is usually worn by Jewish men and not Jewish woman
And by banning the burkha clearly you are saying they are not capable of making the decision for themselves. You are trying to impose your views on other people, in a sense you are oppressing them by refusing to allow them to wear something they consider essential to their religion.
To be honest.. to bring a girl up with the belief that she must cover herself from head to foot IS oppresion. Many aren't forced but just accept it, as this has always been their way. But whether they feel forced or wear one willingly or not, surely the whole thing just symbolises oppresion in it's purest form? something which , in our civilised world should not be encouraged?
I dont think it's necessarily a symbol of repression and whether you do or do not is subjective really. A willing wearer of the burkha might think it brings them closer to God, and it is their way of expressing their faith. Personally I dont understand it but touching on the point of living in a civilised society, I think we should be tolerant and respectful of others beliefs. If it is considered of extreme importance to them then they can go ahead and wear it in my eyes.
Shasown
04-02-2011, 03:51 PM
Nuns habits next on the list?
Tom4784
04-02-2011, 03:53 PM
These women don't know what liberty is though.. They don't know any better and are never ever free to make their own choices. From birth they are merely know as a daughter of such and such or the wife of such and such.
Most have "masters" all their lives
Sorry but I think that's patronising as hell, not all muslims are like what you read in the newspapers or watch on the TV and it annoys me when people think that. It's a stereotype based on the minority rather then a majority.
BIB 1. How and why is that hypocritical. Of course it's an issue about gender and the oppression of women by men. What the hell else would it be about?
BIB 2. See now, that's just ridiculous. Where did I say that? Oppression equates to domestic violence. Of course it does. Try responding to what's written instead of what you'd like me to have written.
BIB 3. But they don't have that liberty. That's the problem.
Again it's patronising to assume that all muslim women are downtrodden and meek, It reminds me of a friend I had in college that wore a version of the Burkha at times It wasn't quite the letterbox version but it was close and she chewed my ear off once for even suggesting that she was victimised into wearing it.
I'm not denying it doesn't happen though but to ban it is a blanket solution to a specific problem and in the long run it won't help the victims as they'll still be abused, they'll just have more freeing clothes to suffer in. Banning a big piece of fabric won't do achieve anything if you want to stop the violence. You've got to tackle the problem at it's core and individually.
Jews don't treat the female sex as something of lesser value than a man
But Jews still emphasise modesty among females, a lot of married Jewish women will cover their hair
Zippy
04-02-2011, 03:55 PM
Nuns habits next on the list?
yes
except for stripograms
Niamh.
04-02-2011, 03:58 PM
I see the Burka as a symbol of oppression, and to be quite honest I applaud Germany and France for banning it. It's backward and demeaning to women, If they don't like it then don't go to those countries.
arista
04-02-2011, 04:00 PM
I see the Burka as a symbol of oppression, and to be quite honest I applaud Germany and France for banning it. It's backward and demeaning to women, If they don't like it then don't go to those countries.
Yes the New Way.
In Your Face.
And Andy (novo) is having a week off.
Zippy
04-02-2011, 04:01 PM
Some Jews maybe get forced to wear the kippah by their parents, should that now be banned?
are you seriously trying to compare a small round cap attached to the crown to a full head/face/body cover up?
they have totally different significance. And certainly send out totally different messages.
I see the Burka as a symbol of oppression, and to be quite honest I applaud Germany and France for banning it. It's backward and demeaning to women, If they don't like it then don't go to those countries.
What about a British Muslim woman who feels the burkha is an important part of her religion, why should she be denied the freedom to do so because some people are hung-up on the possible symbolism of it?
It's not always been the case that it has symbolised oppression either, back in the 19th centure it became a way of rejecting and resisting British colonialism, and asserting themselves and their religion
patsylimerick
04-02-2011, 04:04 PM
It might not be gender exclusive but it is usually worn by Jewish men and not Jewish woman
And by banning the burkha clearly you are saying they are not capable of making the decision for themselves. You are trying to impose your views on other people, in a sense you are oppressing them by refusing to allow them to wear something they consider essential to their religion.
I dont think it's necessarily a symbol of repression and whether you do or do not is subjective really. A willing wearer of the burkha might think it brings them closer to God, and it is their way of expressing their faith. Personally I dont understand it but touching on the point of living in a civilised society, I think we should be tolerant and respectful of others beliefs. If it is considered of extreme importance to them then they can go ahead and wear it in my eyes.
You do realise that's straight out of the Book of Fundamentalist Justifications, don't you?
An dangerous and highly inaccurate argument - in my opinion.
We should be more respectful of rights and equality than of beliefs.
are you seriously trying to compare a small round cap attached to the crown to a full head/face/body cover up?
they have totally different significance. And certainly send out totally different messages.
In a sense they are similar. Neither are religious requirements but some consider them to be important to their religion. The kippah may also be a way of protecting modesty, the burkha is intended to do the same although admittedly takes it to a much greater extent.
Vicky.
04-02-2011, 04:05 PM
Should be banned anyway, everywhere, for security reasons.
Or banned when ENTERING somewhere with cctv. Like balaclavas and motorbike helmets are.
But we cant say 'oh I/the camera needs to see your face' now can we :rolleyes:
arista
04-02-2011, 04:07 PM
Should be banned anyway, everywhere, for security reasons.
Or banned when ENTERING somewhere with cctv. Like balaclavas and motorbike helmets are.
But we cant say 'oh I/the camera needs to see your face' now can we :rolleyes:
Yes that could happen after any major attack in the UK.
patsylimerick
04-02-2011, 04:07 PM
Sorry but I think that's patronising as hell, not all muslims are like what you read in the newspapers or watch on the TV and it annoys me when people think that. It's a stereotype based on the minority rather then a majority.
Again it's patronising to assume that all muslim women are downtrodden and meek, It reminds me of a friend I had in college that wore a version of the Burkha at times It wasn't quite the letterbox version but it was close and she chewed my ear off once for even suggesting that she was victimised into wearing it.
I'm not denying it doesn't happen though but to ban it is a blanket solution to a specific problem and in the long run it won't help the victims as they'll still be abused, they'll just have more freeing clothes to suffer in. Banning a big piece of fabric won't do achieve anything if you want to stop the violence. You've got to tackle the problem at it's core and individually.
I assume nothing of the sort. I KNOW they're physically weaker, and I SUSPECT they are neither downtrodden, nor meek, but frightened. They have no rights to their children or an income.
Niamh.
04-02-2011, 04:09 PM
What about a British Muslim woman who feels the burkha is an important part of her religion, why should she be denied the freedom to do so because some people are hung-up on the possible symbolism of it?
It's not always been the case that it has symbolised oppression either, back in the 19th centure it became a way of rejecting and resisting British colonialism, and asserting themselves and their religion
Well, If a British person lives in a Muslim country they have to live by their rules without question so I say tough luck to her tbh, if it's that important to her then she could always move to a Muslim country.
joeysteele
04-02-2011, 04:13 PM
Well I am sorry but I am glad some Countries are banning it now,in these days of terrorism etc, I think 'all' citizens and people and children everywhere should be able to see very clearly who they are with in buildings, shops/stores and sharing the streets and all public places with.
With no exceptions whatsoever.
Zippy
04-02-2011, 04:13 PM
Well, If a British person lives in a Muslim country they have to live by their rules without question so I say tough luck to her tbh, if it's that important to her then she could always move to a Muslim country.
exactly
westerners have to adjust what they wear to suit muslim countries. But they can wear what they want even if it demeans an entire gender and influences our children in a backwards and negative way?
young girls in this country deserve better role models than a woman covered up head to toe. That represents oppresion and stone age mentality.
Well, If a British person lives in a Muslim country they have to live by their rules without question so I say tough luck to her tbh, if it's that important to her then she could always move to a Muslim country.
I like the fact that we're more tolerant than most Islamic countries though, and that we dont impose our own beliefs onto every single citizen of our country
Niamh.
04-02-2011, 04:16 PM
I like the fact that we're more tolerant than most Islamic countries though, and that we dont impose our own beliefs onto every single citizen of our country
well, besides the fact the I believe it's oppressive towards women, as others have pointed out, from a security point of view as well it makes sense.
Tom4784
04-02-2011, 04:17 PM
I assume nothing of the sort. I KNOW they're physically weaker, and I SUSPECT they are neither downtrodden, nor meek, but frightened. They have no rights to their children or an income.
I don't even need to point out how wrong this post is. Your whole argument is just a bunch of assumptions based on a minority of Muslims.
Of course it should be banned. Apparently it's unacceptable to offend an entire religion - but perfectly fine to oppress an entire gender.
I think they are a symbol of oppression. Totally sexist and send out a disgusting message that shouldnt be tolerated in this country.
What are our children learning from seeing women dressed like this? Take your backwards culture back to your own backwards country.
It's not about clothing. This garments sole purpose is to hide women away. Its offensive and demeaning to the female race.
Its not even a religious requirement. Even if it were I'd still be opposed.
And its damn creepy speaking to just a pair of eyes through a slit. Men wouldnt be allowed to go round in balaclavas. Certainly not in shops, airports etc.
I'm not a feminist by the furthest stretch of the imagination but personally I believe the Burka symbolises oppression of women. I understand that their religion demands modesty, but to cover up every part of their body including their hair and head is just ridiculous in my opinion.
I see the Burka as a symbol of oppression, and to be quite honest I applaud Germany and France for banning it. It's backward and demeaning to women, If they don't like it then don't go to those countries.
Should be banned anyway, everywhere, for security reasons.
Or banned when ENTERING somewhere with cctv. Like balaclavas and motorbike helmets are.
But we cant say 'oh I/the camera needs to see your face' now can we :rolleyes:
Well I am sorry but I am glad some Countries are banning it now,in these days of terrorism etc, I think 'all' citizens and people and children everywhere should be able to see very clearly who they are with in buildings, shops/stores and sharing the streets and all public places with.
With no exceptions whatsoever.
Yeah, I agree ..... the burka is an anachronistic, repressive and potentially lethal form of female clothing ..... ban it and burn it ..... :mad:
patsylimerick
04-02-2011, 04:31 PM
I don't even need to point out how wrong this post is. Your whole argument is just a bunch of assumptions based on a minority of Muslims.
The same minority who FORCE their women to cover up; which is the minority we are discussing, no?
patsylimerick
04-02-2011, 04:32 PM
I like the fact that we're more tolerant than most Islamic countries though, and that we dont impose our own beliefs onto every single citizen of our country
Approving of oppression is not tolerance.
Angus
04-02-2011, 04:40 PM
You've missed the point completely. He was essentially saying that if it's the woman's choice to wear a Burkha then by banning it you're stripping her of the liberty to wear what she wants. Not that the Burkha represents liberation, just that it's their choice to wear it or not.
The point is that this is a western country and as a woman it offends ME to have to daily encounter this vile visual symbol of female subjugation, and I know for a fact that I am not alone in feeling that way. My rights to NOT be offended should be taken into consideration as much as the rights of the women who supposedly "choose" to wear the burka. I am highly sceptical as to the fact that ALL women who wear the burka do so out of choice - I suspect it is often coercion by their male relatives.
Shasown
04-02-2011, 04:41 PM
I see the Burka as a symbol of oppression, and to be quite honest I applaud Germany and France for banning it. It's backward and demeaning to women, If they don't like it then don't go to those countries.
Unfortunately its not the whole of Germany, only the state of Hesse.
Wonder if they will also fine brides wearing veils on the way to get married.
Niamh.
04-02-2011, 04:46 PM
Unfortunately its not the whole of Germany, only the state of Hesse.
Wonder if they will also fine brides wearing veils on the way to get married.
Don't be silly:nono:
Shasown
04-02-2011, 04:52 PM
Don't be silly:nono:
Oh you mean its okay for christian, jewish hindi etc women to wear veils for traditional, religious and cultural reasons but not for muslim women to do the same?
Chuck
04-02-2011, 04:59 PM
Unfortunately its not the whole of Germany, only the state of Hesse.
Wonder if they will also fine brides wearing veils on the way to get married.
The state of Hessel is runned by Angela Merkel's Christian Democrats.
Shasown
04-02-2011, 05:03 PM
The state of Hessel is runned by Angela Merkel's Christian Democrats.
Yeah so I read, should be quite amusing if a muslim runs with this to the ECHR on "religious" grounds and challenges the bans on it, especially if the court backed the right to wear and declared the ban illegal.
Angus
04-02-2011, 05:11 PM
Nuns habits next on the list?
At least nuns have the excuse of their habits, (which incidentally do NOT cover their faces) actually being a religious requirement UNLIKE the burka which is simply a MALE requirement to subjugate females and enforce OWNERSHIP of and AUTHORITY over their women. Unfortunately that sort of mindset is a couple of centuries out of date and has no place in this country. Let's just bring back chastity belts as well shall we?:rolleyes: And how about chaperones for unmarried women, compulsory male guarantors if women want to take out credit or buy a house etc etc?
Women have had to fight long and hard for equality and the burka represents a massive backward step. The main objection is not the fact it is a head to toe coverup, it is the fact that the FACE is concealed. This is not only a huge security risk but also promotes separation from the rest of the community and hinders integration.
Irrespective of cultural/religious arguments, There is NEVER any reason at all to allow people to move amongst us with total anonymity in this day and age of heightened terror alerts. No doubt if people chose to walk about stark naked or copulate in public we'd have the usual suspects telling us it's their choice and we have no right to object.
Angus
04-02-2011, 05:16 PM
Oh you mean its okay for christian, jewish hindi etc women to wear veils for traditional, religious and cultural reasons but not for muslim women to do the same?
Now you're being deliberately disingenuous - of course veils are worn at such ceremonies, but they are NOT worn 24/7 as you well know. To walk around in Britain today totally unidentifiable is unacceptable, and unfortunately the muslim community are doing themselves no favours when they insist on us respecting their culture and then don't have the decency and consideration to respect ours. I am particularly outraged at the two muslim councillors, ironically from the Respect Party, who refused to honour Matt Croucher who won the George Cross. Such bloody hypocrisy.
Shasown
04-02-2011, 05:17 PM
At least nuns have the excuse of their habits, (which incidentally do NOT cover their faces) actually being a religious requirement UNLIKE the burka which is simply a MALE requirement to subjugate females and enforce OWNERSHIP of and AUTHORITY over their women. Unfortunately that sort of mindset is a couple of centuries out of date and has no place in this country. Let's just bring back chastity belts as well shall we?:rolleyes: And how about chaperones for unmarried women, compulsory male guarantors if women want to take out credit or buy a house etc etc?
Women have had to fight long and hard for equality and the burka represents a massive backward step. The main objection is not the fact it is a head to toe coverup, it is the fact that the FACE is concealed. This is not only a huge security risk but also promotes separation from the rest of the community and hinders integration.
Irrespective of cultural/religious arguments, There is NEVER any reason at all to allow people to move amongst us with total anonymity in this day and age of heightened terror alerts. No doubt if people chose to walk about stark naked or copulate in public we'd have the usual suspects telling us it's their choice and we have no right to object.
You forgot they contribute to a predisposition for hypovitaminosis D, which can lead to rickets or osteoporosis and may increase the risk of seizures in infants born to affected mothers
Angus
04-02-2011, 05:18 PM
Yeah so I read, should be quite amusing if a muslim runs with this to the ECHR on "religious" grounds and challenges the bans on it, especially if the court backed the right to wear and declared the ban illegal.
No danger of that happening seeing as how the wearing of the Burka is NOT a religious requirement - and I defy anyone on this forum to find such a dictat in the Qu'ran.
Shasown
04-02-2011, 05:24 PM
Now you're being deliberately disingenuous - of course veils are worn at such ceremonies, but they are NOT worn 24/7 as you well know. .
Fully agree with the mutual respect part of your post, however the burqa isnt worn 24/7 either, its only worn when the female is in a location when males other than her husband/family may see her.
Also the requirement is removed if she is on pilgrimage. (Ihram)
The point I was making unless the ban is enforced reference bridal veils etc, it could be seen by the buffoons of ECHR as being discriminatory on religious/cultural grounds
patsylimerick
04-02-2011, 05:30 PM
Fully agree with the mutual respect part of your post, however the burqa isnt worn 24/7 either, its only worn when the female is in a location when males other than her husband/family may see her.
Also the requirement is removed if she is on pilgrimage. (Ihram)
The point I was making unless the ban is enforced reference bridal veils etc, it could be seen by the buffoons of ECHR as being discriminatory on religious/cultural grounds
Well that says it all, really, doesn't it?
Shasown
04-02-2011, 05:36 PM
No danger of that happening seeing as how the wearing of the Burka is NOT a religious requirement - and I defy anyone on this forum to find such a dictat in the Qu'ran.
Its a question of interpretation,
"And say to the faithful women to lower their gazes, and to guard their private parts, and not to display their beauty except what is apparent of it, and to extend their headcoverings (khimars) to cover their bosoms (jaybs), and not to display their beauty except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husband's fathers, or their sons, or their husband's sons, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their womenfolk, or what their right hands rule (slaves), or the followers from the men who do not feel sexual desire, or the small children to whom the nakedness of women is not apparent, and not to strike their feet (on the ground) so as to make known what they hide of their adornments. And turn in repentance to Allah together, O you the faithful, in order that you are successful"
Qur'an Sura Nur Chapter: The Light. Verse 31
Thanks to Wikipedia
A fatwa, written by Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid on his Saudi Arabian website Islam QA, states:
The correct view as indicated by the evidence is that the woman’s face is ‘awrah which must be covered. It is the most tempting part of her body, because what people look at most is the face, so the face is the greatest ‘awrah of a woman
Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid is a quite well respected Islamic jurist albeit not very moderate in his beliefs.
patsylimerick
04-02-2011, 06:07 PM
Its a question of interpretation,
A fatwa, written by Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid on his Saudi Arabian website Islam QA, states:
The correct view as indicated by the evidence is that the woman’s face is ‘awrah which must be covered. It is the most tempting part of her body, because what people look at most is the face, so the face is the greatest ‘awrah of a woman
Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid is a quite well respected Islamic jurist albeit not very moderate in his beliefs.
I honestly believe that the prophets people worship would be horrified by the justifications made in their name. Literal interpretations of the moral meanderings of holy men thousands of years ago are unacceptable and illogical. Reading anything while ignoring its historical context and trying to directly apply its teaching to a completely different time just makes no sense whatsoever - and this applies to the literal interpretation of the Christian bible too.
Shasown
04-02-2011, 06:19 PM
I honestly believe that the prophets people worship would be horrified by the justifications made in their name. Literal interpretations of the moral meanderings of holy men thousands of years ago are unacceptable and illogical. Reading anything while ignoring its historical context and trying to directly apply its teaching to a completely different time just makes no sense whatsoever - and this applies to the literal interpretation of the Christian bible too.
Very true, however there are other Muslim scholars and jurists who make similar sort of interpretations, there always will be I suppose. And as you say it does happen in other religions too.
And there will always be people who follow them.
letmein
04-02-2011, 06:32 PM
Government has no business dictating what people can wear and what they cannot. Now, if you're setting a law on the basis that covering the face makes things like robbery easy to accomplish in certain institutions, fine. But if you're wearing it on your own time, sorry, but you have every right to do it. Let's also get one thing clear, not all women are wearing it against their own free will. People take their religion very seriously. Should Hasidic Jewish women also be banned from covering their heads with wigs and veils too? Give me a break. Once you start letting the government dictate your personal lifestyle when you aren't bothering anyone else, you're opening the door to all types of horrible things. Europeans seriously have not learned from their own history, and Germans of all people, also haven't learned from theirs either.
letmein
04-02-2011, 06:35 PM
My rights to NOT be offended should be taken into consideration as much as the rights of the women who supposedly "choose" to wear the burka.
Uh, no. The world does not revolve around you.
letmein
04-02-2011, 06:37 PM
No danger of that happening seeing as how the wearing of the Burka is NOT a religious requirement - and I defy anyone on this forum to find such a dictat in the Qu'ran.
Find a requirement in the Bible that states that "nuns" should have to cover themselves.
Zippy
04-02-2011, 08:08 PM
Government has no business dictating what people can wear and what they cannot.
well you can't walk around naked either. Because it offends.
So actually they do have business interfering. Sometimes the bigger picture is more important than individual rights. Everything the burka stands for is insulting to the female race.
and the security issue alone is enough reason to ban it.
well you can't walk around naked either. Because it offends.
So actually they do have business interfering. Sometimes the bigger picture is more important than individual rights. Everything the burka stands for is insulting to the female race.
and the security issue alone is enough reason to ban it.
I'm not really sure it's illegal to be naked. You see naked people walking along a beach sometimes and in other public places. But it may be classed as "indecent exposure" at times, who are you indecently exposing yourself to when you're wearing a burkha?
And not everything it stands for insults the female race, I said a few posts back how it did become a symbol of resistance against British Colonialism in the 19th century.
With regards to the security issue I consider the right to wear a burkha a civil liberty and those can be more important than a minor threat to national security. We could do all kinds of things to improve security, but we would have to sacrifice our freedom to do so. In East Germany they had a very low crime rate, thanks to the Police force there, and the Stasi. Sure they were succesful, but at the cost of our rights and liberties. Just look at the huge debate over ID Cards and CCTV!
Zippy
04-02-2011, 08:48 PM
I'm not really sure it's illegal to be naked.
I think you'll find yourself done for indecent exposure. Unless in a designated nudist area.
Yes I did mention indecent exposure in my post
Zippy
04-02-2011, 08:58 PM
With regards to the security issue I consider the right to wear a burkha a civil liberty and those can be more important than a minor threat to national security.
Civil? I don't think there's anything civil about degrading women in such a blatant way. It seriously offends many and, as Ive said before, sends a very bad message to children about womens role in our society.
And I do not think it is a minor threat at all. When you think about where the terrorist threats are coming from these days and the fact that identification is crucial.
Have you missed those news stories about suspects found trying to escape by wearing burkas? This is a reality.
Livia
04-02-2011, 09:06 PM
I don't have a problem with anyone wearing clothing and symbols of their faith. The burkha is different. If nothing else it's a threat to security. If you want to wear a hajib, fine. If you want to wear a burkha, go and wear it in Saudi.
To letmein, who likened the German's decision regarding the burkha to their treatment of the Jews... gimme a break. If a woman walked around in Saudi in a bikini, do you think they Saudis would be all cut up about stopping it? It's opposite ends of the same scale. If women want to adhere to a medieval dress code (and you say Europeans have learned nothing!), let them do it somewhere women haven't fought for emancipation.
Zippy
04-02-2011, 09:15 PM
If women want to adhere to a medieval dress code (and you say Europeans have learned nothing!), let them do it somewhere women haven't fought for emancipation.
amen
or save it for fancy dress parties.
its 2011 ffs and we don't need to be dragged back to the dark ages.
InOne
04-02-2011, 09:20 PM
This topic comes up alot, and I've always posted this vid. So no point breaking tradition. Pat can take it from here.
TlkxlzTZc48
Niamh.
04-02-2011, 09:32 PM
I don't have a problem with anyone wearing clothing and symbols of their faith. The burkha is different. If nothing else it's a threat to security. If you want to wear a hajib, fine. If you want to wear a burkha, go and wear it in Saudi.
To letmein, who likened the German's decision regarding the burkha to their treatment of the Jews... gimme a break. If a woman walked around in Saudi in a bikini, do you think they Saudis would be all cut up about stopping it? It's opposite ends of the same scale. If women want to adhere to a medieval dress code (and you say Europeans have learned nothing!), let them do it somewhere women haven't fought for emancipation.
Great post.
Niamh.
04-02-2011, 09:34 PM
Oh you mean its okay for christian, jewish hindi etc women to wear veils for traditional, religious and cultural reasons but not for muslim women to do the same?
Veils worn with a wedding dress is fashion, it's worn for a day and it isn't repressive.
Chuck
04-02-2011, 09:47 PM
This topic comes up alot, and I've always posted this vid. So no point breaking tradition. Pat can take it from here.
TlkxlzTZc48
I love his video "Your faith is a joke".
Civil? I don't think there's anything civil about degrading women in such a blatant way. It seriously offends many and, as Ive said before, sends a very bad message to children about womens role in our society.
And I do not think it is a minor threat at all. When you think about where the terrorist threats are coming from these days and the fact that identification is crucial.
Have you missed those news stories about suspects found trying to escape by wearing burkas? This is a reality.
Yes I consider it a civil liberty to be able to express your religion how you see fit. If some Muslims see that as wearing the burkha then I'm not going to judge them or stand in their way of doing so. It's not like they're harming anyone, if you feel offended then that's fine but you dont speak for everyone.
Besides a lot of people might consider it offensive and also quite nervous and endangered when they see a teenager going around with his hood up, that can also conceal identity.
As far as I am aware there has been a single case of a suspect escaping wearing a burkha, if you ban it because of him then you're punishing all burkha wearers for the actions of a sole individual. Let's not exaggerate the number who do wear one either, they're a minority within a minority, there are very very few Muslims who do wear a burkha
I don't have a problem with anyone wearing clothing and symbols of their faith. The burkha is different. If nothing else it's a threat to security. If you want to wear a hajib, fine. If you want to wear a burkha, go and wear it in Saudi.
To letmein, who likened the German's decision regarding the burkha to their treatment of the Jews... gimme a break. If a woman walked around in Saudi in a bikini, do you think they Saudis would be all cut up about stopping it? It's opposite ends of the same scale. If women want to adhere to a medieval dress code (and you say Europeans have learned nothing!), let them do it somewhere women haven't fought for emancipation.
This is an argument that I dont understand. You're essentially saying "they are intolerant so we should be too"? No.
We are a multucultural country, we are a secular, civilised country with civil liberties and human rights, Saudia Arabia is not. Why should we aspire to be like them and ban every bit of clothing that we dont like, or that rubs us up the wrong way.
InOne
04-02-2011, 09:50 PM
I love his video "Your faith is a joke".
He's a youtube legend lol
lily.
04-02-2011, 09:53 PM
I think all ugly people should be required to wear them under law.
Angus
04-02-2011, 09:54 PM
Its a question of interpretation,
A fatwa, written by Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid on his Saudi Arabian website Islam QA, states:
The correct view as indicated by the evidence is that the woman’s face is ‘awrah which must be covered. It is the most tempting part of her body, because what people look at most is the face, so the face is the greatest ‘awrah of a woman
Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid is a quite well respected Islamic jurist albeit not very moderate in his beliefs.
"The most tempting part of her body" good grief, what a pathetic indictment of the male species to suggest they have so little self control over their own bodies that they have to demonise women as the "temptresses" and cover them up in case they are seduced against their will. It's never the fault of their wayward dicks is it?:bored:
The very fact that a supposedly intelligent and educated man has actually stated this just goes to demonstrate the mindset of a religion still firmly stuck in the middle ages when women were chattels and, unfortunately, in the 21st century, still are to muslim men. Let's not forget what Muhammad told his male followers in his Farewell Sermon - that women were helpless captives in their households and they were entitled to discipline them. Over all these centuries nothing has changed.
Tom4784
04-02-2011, 10:04 PM
Yes I consider it a civil liberty to be able to express your religion how you see fit. If some Muslims see that as wearing the burkha then I'm not going to judge them or stand in their way of doing so. It's not like they're harming anyone, if you feel offended then that's fine but you dont speak for everyone.
Besides a lot of people might consider it offensive and also quite nervous and endangered when they see a teenager going around with his hood up, that can also conceal identity.
As far as I am aware there has been a single case of a suspect escaping wearing a burkha, if you ban it because of him then you're punishing all burkha wearers for the actions of a sole individual. Let's not exaggerate the number who do wear one either, they're a minority within a minority, there are very very few Muslims who do wear a burkha
This is an argument that I dont understand. You're essentially saying "they are intolerant so we should be too"? No.
We are a multucultural country, we are a secular, civilised country with civil liberties and human rights, Saudia Arabia is not. Why should we aspire to be like them and ban every bit of clothing that we dont like, or that rubs us up the wrong way.
Yes, yes YES at the bolded part. I'm just glad a lot of people in this topic will never know power.
lily.
04-02-2011, 10:07 PM
Yes, yes YES at the bolded part. I'm just glad a lot of people in this topic will never know power.
A lot of people in this topic will never know adequacy.
bananarama
04-02-2011, 10:08 PM
I think in rare cases it isn't but more often then not it is. I don't agree with what the Burkha stands for but if someone chooses to wear it then that's their decision.
Time and time again people pop up and claim they choose to wear it as a free choice............I million percent wrong........
Women who have been raised from childhood in a religous repressive household are programmed to be as they are in adulthood. There is no free choice about it what so ever........Damaged people are not free people.......They react as per programming (brainwashing).
They need to be freed from such and as such the burka should be banned in order to prevent new generations of the female gender being brainwashed into an idiotic practice.....
People use religions in order to control others..The burka is a living example of that........
It's time the Governments of this sloppy country woke up and smelt the coffee and ensured all women of this country regardless of nationaity or religion are saved from parenthood that brainwashes children.........
Not only should it be a criminal offence to promote the burka it should also be a criminal offence to send any child to any type of faith (brainwashing) school........
Zippy
04-02-2011, 10:18 PM
Misuse of religion for political ends
The facemask worn by some Muslim women [is about] political symbolism that reflects the contempt of radical Islamist groups for Western civilisation. Today, the only forces that demand Muslim women to cover their faces are: the Taliban in Afghanistan and Pakistan, the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, the Arab World [and Europe], Al-Qaeda, and the Saudi religious establishment. All four groups see women as a source of sin and objects of sexuality, and the freedom of women in the West as manifestations of evil sexual depravity. Yet it is worth noting that leading clerics and scholars from both the Shia and Sunni communities have stated quite explicitly that the burka or niqab are not an Islamic requirement, but a cultural and tribal custom.
The wearing of a facemask is not a religious issue and the argument that it has the protection of the Charter, as ‘freedom of religion’, does not withstand scrutiny. A political symbol does not have the status of religious belief, especially if its meaning is rejection of and contempt for western civilization, and for the women who exercise their hard fought right to not be judged as mere sexual objects and the source of sin. Pressure on young girls to conform to the belief that they are sources of sin was demonstrated in Montreal in 2006 when the head of a mosque told young girls that if they did not cover themselves, they risked getting raped and might end up as unwed mothers. He went on to say that on the Day of Judgment, God would punish these girls for getting raped because they enticed the rapist by not covering themselves.
As a nation, a country and a society, we have travelled over hundreds of years to ensure that women are not considered second-class citizens or the possessions of men. We can ill afford to let culture or tribal custom compromise the equality of women.
Angus
04-02-2011, 10:41 PM
Time and time again people pop up and claim they choose to wear it as a free choice............I million percent wrong........
Women who have been raised from childhood in a religous repressive household are programmed to be as they are in adulthood. There is no free choice about it what so ever........Damaged people are not free people.......They react as per programming (brainwashing).
They need to be freed from such and as such the burka should be banned in order to prevent new generations of the female gender being brainwashed into an idiotic practice.....
People use religions in order to control others..The burka is a living example of that........
It's time the Governments of this sloppy country woke up and smelt the coffee and ensured all women of this country regardless of nationaity or religion are saved from parenthood that brainwashes children.........
Not only should it be a criminal offence to promote the burka it should also be a criminal offence to send any child to any type of faith (brainwashing) school........
Sadly, those banging on about "choice" for muslim women seem to be totally ignorant about the nature of islamic indoctrination of women from birth, and the very clear demarcation between male and female roles in Islam. I am not just speaking from a standpoint of what I have read in books or watched on TV etc, but from actually having lived in the Middle East for some years as a western woman - it is an experience I would thoroughly recommend to those on here advocating the "freedom of choice" these women supposedly have, so that they could get a better understanding of what it is like to be a muslim woman in a male dominated country.
Just because this is Britain, people seem to assume that muslim women are enjoying the same freedoms as the rest of us - how blind can you be? All that is happening is that the same restrictive and demeaning practices have been brought to our country and allowed to flourish with impunity.
Livia
04-02-2011, 10:45 PM
This is an argument that I dont understand. You're essentially saying "they are intolerant so we should be too"? No.
We are a multucultural country, we are a secular, civilised country with civil liberties and human rights, Saudia Arabia is not. Why should we aspire to be like them and ban every bit of clothing that we dont like, or that rubs us up the wrong way.
You are clearly misinterpreting what I wrote. They are intolerant, yes. But I don't see this country as being intolerant, and I don't see Germany these days as being intolerant either.
We are multicultural, yes. And I see that as a good thing. But this is not a secular country. The UK is a Christian country, with the Head of State - that's the Queen - being the Defender of the Faith - that's the Church of England. For you not to know that shows just how far down the road we've gone in appeasing Islam. Indidentally, I'm not a Christian, and I support people following whichever faith they choose.
I don't aspire to "ban every bit of clothing we don't like". Did you read the bit where I said I don't have a problem with people wearing the hajib or any other form of religious garb they choose to wear. But the burkha is different and I agree with it being banned. If someone doesn't like that and they want to wear one, best they should reconsider their decision to live in a country where women are free to vote, to be educated, to receive medical treatment and to work in just about any field they choose.
Niamh.
04-02-2011, 11:08 PM
closed- Gone offtopic and this topic has already been done to death anyway.
Niamh.
05-02-2011, 12:37 AM
reopened - stay on topic please
GypsyGoth
05-02-2011, 12:42 AM
http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt132/MuslimsAgainstSharia/ishr-burka.jpg
patsylimerick
05-02-2011, 01:49 AM
You are clearly misinterpreting what I wrote. They are intolerant, yes. But I don't see this country as being intolerant, and I don't see Germany these days as being intolerant either.
We are multicultural, yes. And I see that as a good thing. But this is not a secular country. The UK is a Christian country, with the Head of State - that's the Queen - being the Defender of the Faith - that's the Church of England. For you not to know that shows just how far down the road we've gone in appeasing Islam. Indidentally, I'm not a Christian, and I support people following whichever faith they choose.
I don't aspire to "ban every bit of clothing we don't like". Did you read the bit where I said I don't have a problem with people wearing the hajib or any other form of religious garb they choose to wear. But the burkha is different and I agree with it being banned. If someone doesn't like that and they want to wear one, best they should reconsider their decision to live in a country where women are free to vote, to be educated, to receive medical treatment and to work in just about any field they choose.
EXCEPTIONALLY well said.
Fetch The Bolt Cutters
05-02-2011, 01:51 AM
omg you can get burka swimsuits :amazed:
http://www.all4humor.com/images/files/Burka%20Swimsuit.jpg
-buys-
Jessica.
05-02-2011, 01:53 AM
omg you can get burka swimsuits :amazed:
http://www.all4humor.com/images/files/Burka%20Swimsuit.jpg
-buys-
I hope that's not a piece of her arm I see! :nono:
patsylimerick
05-02-2011, 01:58 AM
This topic comes up alot, and I've always posted this vid. So no point breaking tradition. Pat can take it from here.
TlkxlzTZc48
Well he was doing brilliantly until about four and a half minutes in; until he went on an anti-women; anti-feminist rant that'scompletely out of place and out of context. But almost very, very good.
Fetch The Bolt Cutters
05-02-2011, 01:59 AM
I hope that's not a piece of her arm I see! :nono:
its covered :nono:
omg you can get burka swimsuits :amazed:
http://www.all4humor.com/images/files/Burka%20Swimsuit.jpg
-buys-
More :
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ZjrrYYuebok/TJpdpUjuEKI/AAAAAAAAAkU/AFb1uZ-swwU/s1600/burkini.jpg
Jessica.
05-02-2011, 02:03 AM
its covered :nono:
It better be! :nono:
Fetch The Bolt Cutters
05-02-2011, 02:13 AM
It better be! :nono:
:worship: <<< thats for allah not you :nono:
Jessica.
05-02-2011, 02:14 AM
:worship: <<< thats for allah not you :nono:
Do you honestly think I'd expect a man to bow to me? :nono:
Fetch The Bolt Cutters
05-02-2011, 02:16 AM
:bawling:
Fetch The Bolt Cutters
05-02-2011, 02:17 AM
omg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ZjrrYYuebok/TJpdpUjuEKI/AAAAAAAAAkU/AFb1uZ-swwU/s1600/burkini.jpg
-orders the pink in a size 10-
GypsyGoth
05-02-2011, 02:19 AM
omg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ZjrrYYuebok/TJpdpUjuEKI/AAAAAAAAAkU/AFb1uZ-swwU/s1600/burkini.jpg
-orders the pink in a size 10-
I think their boy is peeing in the sea.
Fetch The Bolt Cutters
05-02-2011, 02:20 AM
I think their boy is peeing in the sea.
well he'll be sorry when allah hears about this
GypsyGoth
05-02-2011, 02:23 AM
well he'll be sorry when allah hears about this
:laugh:
You are clearly misinterpreting what I wrote. They are intolerant, yes. But I don't see this country as being intolerant, and I don't see Germany these days as being intolerant either.
We are multicultural, yes. And I see that as a good thing. But this is not a secular country. The UK is a Christian country, with the Head of State - that's the Queen - being the Defender of the Faith - that's the Church of England. For you not to know that shows just how far down the road we've gone in appeasing Islam. Indidentally, I'm not a Christian, and I support people following whichever faith they choose.
I don't aspire to "ban every bit of clothing we don't like". Did you read the bit where I said I don't have a problem with people wearing the hajib or any other form of religious garb they choose to wear. But the burkha is different and I agree with it being banned. If someone doesn't like that and they want to wear one, best they should reconsider their decision to live in a country where women are free to vote, to be educated, to receive medical treatment and to work in just about any field they choose.
Yes that reply was just a general comment on the whole "we have to cover up in their countries" argument that is often used as opposed to a specific response to your post
This is a secular country in all but name. Sure by law, the Queen is head of the CoE and we're a Christian nation but very few in this country hold a firm belief in God and Christianity is on the decline while Islam is on the rise. I am indeed well aware of the Queen's status so no need to be so patronising there.
Why is the burkha "different"? You didnt really give a reason there, you just stated that it was. The burkha is surely just an extension of the hijab, they are both intended to protect the Muslim womans modesty.
If there is a British Muslim woman and she considers the burkha crucial to her relgious beliefs then I feel she has every right to wear one, and I'd hope that she would be allowed to in a country that preaches civil liberties and freedom of religion, instead of being forced away to a fundamentalist and repressive country like Saudi.
It annoys me how people always say "they shouldnt have come here in the first place" and "we respet their culture" or something along those lines when more often or not your average Muslim in this country is just as British as you or I.
Arista will be on your ass soon Scott :laugh:
Fetch The Bolt Cutters
05-02-2011, 02:28 AM
Arista will be on your ass soon Scott :laugh:
:amazed:
-excited-
-lubes up with WD40-
:amazed:
-excited-
-lubes up with WD40-
:joker::joker:
Should have seen that coming
GypsyGoth
05-02-2011, 02:29 AM
:laugh2:
your average Muslim in this country is just as British as you or I.
It depends what you mean by "British" - for example, nationality does not confer heritage ..... ;)
Angus
05-02-2011, 03:54 PM
It depends what you mean by "British" - for example, nationality does not confer heritage ..... ;)
Exactly. Just because I can fulfil the criteria to become a national of any other country, does not give me any attachment to it in terms of identity, culture, heritage, tradition or loyalty.
arista
05-02-2011, 04:25 PM
This topic comes up alot, and I've always posted this vid. So no point breaking tradition. Pat can take it from here.
TlkxlzTZc48
Bang On Right Pat
joeysteele
05-02-2011, 05:34 PM
I don't have a problem with anyone wearing clothing and symbols of their faith. The burkha is different. If nothing else it's a threat to security. If you want to wear a hajib, fine. If you want to wear a burkha, go and wear it in Saudi.
To letmein, who likened the German's decision regarding the burkha to their treatment of the Jews... gimme a break. If a woman walked around in Saudi in a bikini, do you think they Saudis would be all cut up about stopping it? It's opposite ends of the same scale. If women want to adhere to a medieval dress code (and you say Europeans have learned nothing!), let them do it somewhere women haven't fought for emancipation.
Well done on this post
As with just about all of Livia's posts, the above is in my opinion the post of this thread.
Deep insight and perfectly presented. Pure fact,right and no invention in it whatsoever.
BB_Eye
05-02-2011, 06:17 PM
I don't have a problem with anyone wearing clothing and symbols of their faith. The burkha is different. If nothing else it's a threat to security. If you want to wear a hajib, fine. If you want to wear a burkha, go and wear it in Saudi.
To letmein, who likened the German's decision regarding the burkha to their treatment of the Jews... gimme a break. If a woman walked around in Saudi in a bikini, do you think they Saudis would be all cut up about stopping it? It's opposite ends of the same scale. If women want to adhere to a medieval dress code (and you say Europeans have learned nothing!), let them do it somewhere women haven't fought for emancipation.I think what letmein meant was that Germany in the Third Reich is possibly the most terrifying example of totalitarianism in recent history. Germany has had to learn the dangers of the Idea of Progress and social engineering the hard way.
I think this burkha ban demands a worldview predicated upon the ghastly notion that people can somehow, paradoxically, be coerced into being free. That to allow people to do, say (and wear) what they please somehow constitutes oppressing them and they are only free when they are made to see reason. The inevitable culmination of this idealistic mentality in revolutionary France was the Reign of Terror, in the 20th century and today, it is the modern police state.
Angus
05-02-2011, 06:51 PM
I think what letmein meant was that Germany in the Third Reich is possibly the most terrifying example of totalitarianism in recent history. Germany has had to learn the dangers of the Idea of Progress and social engineering the hard way.
I think this burkha ban demands a worldview predicated upon the ghastly notion that people can somehow, paradoxically, be coerced into being free. That to allow people to do, say (and wear) what they please somehow constitutes oppressing them and they are only free when they are made to see reason. The inevitable culmination of this idealistic mentality in revolutionary France was the Reign of Terror, in the 20th century and today, it is the modern police state.
Funny that, I have the complete opposite opinion - that Islam is a totalitarian political and religious ideology which is being imposed on us, the burka being a political statement NOT a religious one. I find it invidious that women in this country who have fought so long and hard for emancipation are expected to condone and accept this blatant visual reminder of the medieval mindset of a male dominated ideology without a murmur. THAT to me is oppressive and coercive.
It is not the garment per se, but its political symbolism of an intolerant and separatist "religion". I have no wish to live in such a society and its time women in this country made their voices heard, and braved the inevitable attempts to silence us with accusations of racism. We should oppose it not just for ourselves but for ALL women oppressed and subjugated by men. Furthermore, the notion that all women who wear the burka have CHOSEN to do so of their own free and unindoctrinated will and without the coercion of muslim men is a fantasy in the blinkered minds of idealists.
Angus
05-02-2011, 07:21 PM
Yasmin Alibhai-Brown: Wearing the burqa is neither Islamic nor socially acceptable
To deny face-to-face interaction is to deny our shared humanity
Monday, 13 July 2009
Yasmin Alibhai-Brown: Wearing the burqa is neither Islamic nor socially acceptable
To deny face-to-face interaction is to deny our shared humanity
I am a Shia Muslim and I abhor the burqa. I am offended by the unchallenged presumption that women covering their heads and bodies and now faces are more pious and true than am I.
Islam in all its diverse forms entitles believers to a personal relationship with Allah – it cuts out middlemen, one reason its appeal extended to so many across the world. You can seek advice from learned scholars and imams, but they cannot come between your faith and the light of God. Today control freaks who claim they have a special line to the Almighty have turned our world dark. Neo-conservative Islamic codes spread like swine flu, an infection few seem able to resist.
The disease is progressive. It started 20 years ago with the hijab, donned then as a defiant symbol of identity, now a conscript's uniform. Then came the jilbab, the cloak, fought over in courts when schoolgirls were manipulated into claiming it as an essential Islamic garment. If so, hell awaits the female leaders of Pakistan and Bangladesh.
Soon, children as young as four were kitted up in cloaks and headscarves ("so they get used to it, and then later wear the full thing," said a teacher to me who works at a Muslim girls' school) and now for the graduation gown, a full burqa, preferably with dark glasses.
White liberals frame this sinister development in terms of free choice and tolerance. Some write letters to this paper: What is the problem? It is all part of the rich diversity of our nation. They can rise to this challenge, show they are superhuman when it comes to liberty and forbearance.
They might not be quite so sanguine if their own daughters decided to be fully veiled or their sons became fanatic Islamicists and imposed purdah in the family. Such converts are springing up in Muslim families all over the land. Veils predate Islam and were never an injunction (modesty of attire for men and women is). Cultural protectionism has long been extended to those who came from old colonies, in part to atone for imperial hauteur. Redress was necessary then, not now.
What about legitimate fears that to criticise vulnerable ethnic and racial groups validates the racism they face? Racism is an evil but should never be used as an alibi to acquit oppressions within black and Asian or religious communities. That cry was used to deter us from exposing forced marriages and dowry deaths and black-upon-black violence.
Right-wing think tanks and President Sarkozy of France scapegoat Muslims for political gain and British fascists have turned self-inflicted "ethnic" wounds into scarlet propaganda. They do what they always have done. Self-censorship will not stop them but it does stop us from dealing with home-grown problems or articulating objections to reactionary life choices like the burqa. Muslim women who show their hair are becoming an endangered species. We must fight back. Our covered-up sisters do not understand history, politics, struggles, their faith or equality. As Rahila Gupta, campaigner against domestic violence, writes: "This is a cloth that comes soaked in blood. We cannot debate the burqa or the hijab without reference to women in Iran, Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia where the wearing of it are heavily policed and any slippages are met with violence." What happened to solidarity?
Violent enforcement is evident in Britain too. A fully veiled young chemistry graduate once came to my home, her body covered in cuts, tears, bites, bruises, all happily hidden from view. Security and social cohesion are all threatened by this trend – which is growing exponentially.
As for the pathetic excuse that covering up protects women from male lasciviousness – it hasn't stopped rapists in the most conservative Muslim nations. And what a slur on decent Muslim men, portrayed as sexual predators who cannot look upon a woman without wanting her.
We communicate with each other with our faces. To deny that interaction is to deny our shared humanity. Unreasonable community or nationalistic expectations disconnect essential bonds. Governments should not accommodate such demands. Naturists can't parade on the streets, go to school or take up jobs unless they cover their nakedness. Why should burqaed women get special consideration?
Their veils are walls, keeping them in and us out. We need an urgent, open conversation on this issue – which divides the Muslim intelligensia as much as the nation. Our social environment, fragile and precious, matters more than choice and custom should to British Muslims. If we don't compromise for the greater good, the future looks only more bitter and bleak. Saying so doesn't make me the enemy of my people.
y.alibhaibrown@independent.co.uk
I rest my case.
Shasown
05-02-2011, 07:55 PM
Yasmin Alibhai-Brown: Wearing the burqa is neither Islamic nor socially acceptable
To deny face-to-face interaction is to deny our shared humanity
Monday, 13 July 2009
Yasmin Alibhai-Brown: Wearing the burqa is neither Islamic nor socially acceptable
To deny face-to-face interaction is to deny our shared humanity
I am a Shia Muslim and I abhor the burqa. I am offended by the unchallenged presumption that women covering their heads and bodies and now faces are more pious and true than am I.
Islam in all its diverse forms entitles believers to a personal relationship with Allah – it cuts out middlemen, one reason its appeal extended to so many across the world. You can seek advice from learned scholars and imams, but they cannot come between your faith and the light of God. Today control freaks who claim they have a special line to the Almighty have turned our world dark. Neo-conservative Islamic codes spread like swine flu, an infection few seem able to resist.
The disease is progressive. It started 20 years ago with the hijab, donned then as a defiant symbol of identity, now a conscript's uniform. Then came the jilbab, the cloak, fought over in courts when schoolgirls were manipulated into claiming it as an essential Islamic garment. If so, hell awaits the female leaders of Pakistan and Bangladesh.
Soon, children as young as four were kitted up in cloaks and headscarves ("so they get used to it, and then later wear the full thing," said a teacher to me who works at a Muslim girls' school) and now for the graduation gown, a full burqa, preferably with dark glasses.
White liberals frame this sinister development in terms of free choice and tolerance. Some write letters to this paper: What is the problem? It is all part of the rich diversity of our nation. They can rise to this challenge, show they are superhuman when it comes to liberty and forbearance.
They might not be quite so sanguine if their own daughters decided to be fully veiled or their sons became fanatic Islamicists and imposed purdah in the family. Such converts are springing up in Muslim families all over the land. Veils predate Islam and were never an injunction (modesty of attire for men and women is). Cultural protectionism has long been extended to those who came from old colonies, in part to atone for imperial hauteur. Redress was necessary then, not now.
What about legitimate fears that to criticise vulnerable ethnic and racial groups validates the racism they face? Racism is an evil but should never be used as an alibi to acquit oppressions within black and Asian or religious communities. That cry was used to deter us from exposing forced marriages and dowry deaths and black-upon-black violence.
Right-wing think tanks and President Sarkozy of France scapegoat Muslims for political gain and British fascists have turned self-inflicted "ethnic" wounds into scarlet propaganda. They do what they always have done. Self-censorship will not stop them but it does stop us from dealing with home-grown problems or articulating objections to reactionary life choices like the burqa. Muslim women who show their hair are becoming an endangered species. We must fight back. Our covered-up sisters do not understand history, politics, struggles, their faith or equality. As Rahila Gupta, campaigner against domestic violence, writes: "This is a cloth that comes soaked in blood. We cannot debate the burqa or the hijab without reference to women in Iran, Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia where the wearing of it are heavily policed and any slippages are met with violence." What happened to solidarity?
Violent enforcement is evident in Britain too. A fully veiled young chemistry graduate once came to my home, her body covered in cuts, tears, bites, bruises, all happily hidden from view. Security and social cohesion are all threatened by this trend – which is growing exponentially.
As for the pathetic excuse that covering up protects women from male lasciviousness – it hasn't stopped rapists in the most conservative Muslim nations. And what a slur on decent Muslim men, portrayed as sexual predators who cannot look upon a woman without wanting her.
We communicate with each other with our faces. To deny that interaction is to deny our shared humanity. Unreasonable community or nationalistic expectations disconnect essential bonds. Governments should not accommodate such demands. Naturists can't parade on the streets, go to school or take up jobs unless they cover their nakedness. Why should burqaed women get special consideration?
Their veils are walls, keeping them in and us out. We need an urgent, open conversation on this issue – which divides the Muslim intelligensia as much as the nation. Our social environment, fragile and precious, matters more than choice and custom should to British Muslims. If we don't compromise for the greater good, the future looks only more bitter and bleak. Saying so doesn't make me the enemy of my people.
y.alibhaibrown@independent.co.uk
I rest my case.
Nicely expressed opinion from Yasmin, some excellent points, so good you posted it twice.
Notice she asks for open conversation not a ban.
Saying that though she does undermine your position that most women are forced or coerced into wearing it with this line:
"Our covered-up sisters do not understand history, politics, struggles, their faith or equality."
Or this one
"They might not be quite so sanguine if their own daughters decided to be fully veiled"
Both would seem to imply there are a lot of women who willingly adopt this dress style.
Fetch The Bolt Cutters
05-02-2011, 07:56 PM
http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/06_02/Burkini230607MOS_468x810.jpg
Shasown
05-02-2011, 07:58 PM
http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/06_02/Burkini230607MOS_468x810.jpg
Wouldnt stop a male foot fetish having naughty thoughts would it?
Fetch The Bolt Cutters
05-02-2011, 08:01 PM
Wouldnt stop a male foot fetish having naughty thoughts would it?
:joker: :joker: :joker: :joker: :joker:
billy123
05-02-2011, 08:17 PM
This topic comes up alot, and I've always posted this vid. So no point breaking tradition. Pat can take it from here.
TlkxlzTZc48
https://barbariangroup.com/assets/users/rclifton/images/0000/8317/facebook_like_button_big.jpg
bananarama
07-02-2011, 07:32 PM
Yasmin Alibhai-Brown: Wearing the burqa is neither Islamic nor socially acceptable
To deny face-to-face interaction is to deny our shared humanity
Monday, 13 July 2009
Yasmin Alibhai-Brown: Wearing the burqa is neither Islamic nor socially acceptable
To deny face-to-face interaction is to deny our shared humanity
I am a Shia Muslim and I abhor the burqa. I am offended by the unchallenged presumption that women covering their heads and bodies and now faces are more pious and true than am I.
Islam in all its diverse forms entitles believers to a personal relationship with Allah – it cuts out middlemen, one reason its appeal extended to so many across the world. You can seek advice from learned scholars and imams, but they cannot come between your faith and the light of God. Today control freaks who claim they have a special line to the Almighty have turned our world dark. Neo-conservative Islamic codes spread like swine flu, an infection few seem able to resist.
The disease is progressive. It started 20 years ago with the hijab, donned then as a defiant symbol of identity, now a conscript's uniform. Then came the jilbab, the cloak, fought over in courts when schoolgirls were manipulated into claiming it as an essential Islamic garment. If so, hell awaits the female leaders of Pakistan and Bangladesh.
Soon, children as young as four were kitted up in cloaks and headscarves ("so they get used to it, and then later wear the full thing," said a teacher to me who works at a Muslim girls' school) and now for the graduation gown, a full burqa, preferably with dark glasses.
White liberals frame this sinister development in terms of free choice and tolerance. Some write letters to this paper: What is the problem? It is all part of the rich diversity of our nation. They can rise to this challenge, show they are superhuman when it comes to liberty and forbearance.
They might not be quite so sanguine if their own daughters decided to be fully veiled or their sons became fanatic Islamicists and imposed purdah in the family. Such converts are springing up in Muslim families all over the land. Veils predate Islam and were never an injunction (modesty of attire for men and women is). Cultural protectionism has long been extended to those who came from old colonies, in part to atone for imperial hauteur. Redress was necessary then, not now.
What about legitimate fears that to criticise vulnerable ethnic and racial groups validates the racism they face? Racism is an evil but should never be used as an alibi to acquit oppressions within black and Asian or religious communities. That cry was used to deter us from exposing forced marriages and dowry deaths and black-upon-black violence.
Right-wing think tanks and President Sarkozy of France scapegoat Muslims for political gain and British fascists have turned self-inflicted "ethnic" wounds into scarlet propaganda. They do what they always have done. Self-censorship will not stop them but it does stop us from dealing with home-grown problems or articulating objections to reactionary life choices like the burqa. Muslim women who show their hair are becoming an endangered species. We must fight back. Our covered-up sisters do not understand history, politics, struggles, their faith or equality. As Rahila Gupta, campaigner against domestic violence, writes: "This is a cloth that comes soaked in blood. We cannot debate the burqa or the hijab without reference to women in Iran, Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia where the wearing of it are heavily policed and any slippages are met with violence." What happened to solidarity?
Violent enforcement is evident in Britain too. A fully veiled young chemistry graduate once came to my home, her body covered in cuts, tears, bites, bruises, all happily hidden from view. Security and social cohesion are all threatened by this trend – which is growing exponentially.
As for the pathetic excuse that covering up protects women from male lasciviousness – it hasn't stopped rapists in the most conservative Muslim nations. And what a slur on decent Muslim men, portrayed as sexual predators who cannot look upon a woman without wanting her.
We communicate with each other with our faces. To deny that interaction is to deny our shared humanity. Unreasonable community or nationalistic expectations disconnect essential bonds. Governments should not accommodate such demands. Naturists can't parade on the streets, go to school or take up jobs unless they cover their nakedness. Why should burqaed women get special consideration?
Their veils are walls, keeping them in and us out. We need an urgent, open conversation on this issue – which divides the Muslim intelligensia as much as the nation. Our social environment, fragile and precious, matters more than choice and custom should to British Muslims. If we don't compromise for the greater good, the future looks only more bitter and bleak. Saying so doesn't make me the enemy of my people.
y.alibhaibrown@independent.co.uk
I rest my case.
A comprehensive and brilliant post........
Livia
08-02-2011, 07:13 PM
Yes that reply was just a general comment on the whole "we have to cover up in their countries" argument that is often used as opposed to a specific response to your post
This is a secular country in all but name. Sure by law, the Queen is head of the CoE and we're a Christian nation but very few in this country hold a firm belief in God and Christianity is on the decline while Islam is on the rise. I am indeed well aware of the Queen's status so no need to be so patronising there.
Why is the burkha "different"? You didnt really give a reason there, you just stated that it was. The burkha is surely just an extension of the hijab, they are both intended to protect the Muslim womans modesty.
If there is a British Muslim woman and she considers the burkha crucial to her relgious beliefs then I feel she has every right to wear one, and I'd hope that she would be allowed to in a country that preaches civil liberties and freedom of religion, instead of being forced away to a fundamentalist and repressive country like Saudi.
It annoys me how people always say "they shouldnt have come here in the first place" and "we respet their culture" or something along those lines when more often or not your average Muslim in this country is just as British as you or I.
As British as you, perhaps. What annoys ME is that you're assuming that I'm a white Anglo-Saxon protestant because I disagree with the Burkha. I've said over and over that I support people's religious freedom. You make me sound like a member of the BNP.
I am a Jew whose family (mostly) came to this country as refugees following release from the death camps after WW2. I have family living who are tattooed with their concentration camp numbers. You cannot equate Germany's ban on the burkha to their previous history which is what you tried to do in your original post by saying that Germany especially should be aware of their past. I am paraphrasing, obviously.
I never said they shouldn't come here in the first place. I am hardly in a position to say that. I have (generally) found this country has treated my family and our religious beliefs with respect and in return my family respected the culture and traditions of the UK. In a country so accepting of other cultures, it surprises me that people accuse this country of being unaccepting because they disagree with the burkha.
Anyway, we clearly disagree on this. And that's fine.
As British as you, perhaps. What annoys ME is that you're assuming that I'm a white Anglo-Saxon protestant because I disagree with the Burkha. I've said over and over that I support people's religious freedom. You make me sound like a member of the BNP.
I am a Jew whose family (mostly) came to this country as refugees following release from the death camps after WW2. I have family living who are tattooed with their concentration camp numbers. You cannot equate Germany's ban on the burkha to their previous history which is what you tried to do in your original post by saying that Germany especially should be aware of their past. I am paraphrasing, obviously.
I never said they shouldn't come here in the first place. I am hardly in a position to say that. I have (generally) found this country has treated my family and our religious beliefs with respect and in return my family respected the culture and traditions of the UK. In a country so accepting of other cultures, it surprises me that people accuse this country of being unaccepting because they disagree with the burkha.
Anyway, we clearly disagree on this. And that's fine.
Hang on a sec, it was a different poster who made the compairson to the Nazi's (letmein I think), I never did such a thing, and it was not my intention to make you sound like a member of the BNP.
But yes, we'll have to agree to disagree.
Zippy
09-02-2011, 07:51 PM
I saw a woman on the train last week wearing a burka. Talk about drawing attention to yourself. Which, ironically, is apparently the opposite of its intention.
she may as well have been holding a sign saying keep the fck away from me because thats kinda the signal it sends out. Very sad.
InOne
09-02-2011, 08:19 PM
It's worst when you have to talk to them when wearing one, when they're a shop owner or something. Their eyes always look really scary D:
Zippy
09-02-2011, 08:25 PM
It's worst when you have to talk to them when wearing one, when they're a shop owner or something. Their eyes always look really scary D:
worse than a balaclava.
somebody mentioned nuns...well nuns show their faces and are usually smiley and friendly(I used to live near a convent and saw them everyday). Seeing somebodies whole face makes a massive difference.
Vicky.
09-02-2011, 08:32 PM
You know...I have never ever seen anyone actually in real life wearing a burka...
Plenty of hijabs but never a burka. I do think it would look quite creepy, especially having to talk to someone wearing one. I would be uncomfortable speaking to someone wearing a balaclava also, which I think is pretty much the same thing...I need to see faces, not just big scary eyes D:
InOne
09-02-2011, 08:35 PM
Well, where I live quite a lot have them, it's a common thing lol It was at a market stall though, doubt they'd be allowed even in their own run shops. But yeah, it stands out massive and definitely makes a point. "Here I am, Muslim and free" :rolleyes:
arista
09-02-2011, 08:36 PM
It's worst when you have to talk to them when wearing one, when they're a shop owner or something. Their eyes always look really scary D:
Yes they can look Scary.
But under that could be a Woman.
InOne
09-02-2011, 08:53 PM
Yes they can look Scary.
But under that could be a Woman.
:joker:
Zippy
09-02-2011, 08:58 PM
there could be anything lurking beneath that gear, lets be honest. I think they just get used to not having to shave or take care of their looks.
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