US marines 'urinated on Afghans'

[arista]

"Video posted anonymously on YouTube claims to show American troops in Afghanistan urinating on dead bodies"


When will they Ever Learn?


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jan/12/american-marines-accused-war-crimes

Video on the that link

[fruit_cake]

unpleasant

[arista]

unpleasant


Its more than that
it again shows US troops as Evil.


How do you think the Locals will feel about this?

[fruit_cake]

Its more than that
it again shows US troops as Evil.


How do you think the Locals will feel about this?

I don't know maybe the locals hated them too? I'm not aware the Taliban are loved by the locals more the other way round, but I really don't know much about it having never been there or paid much attention to it.

It seems a strange morality to me, that is it not evil to kill them but it is evil to urinate on them afterwards?

[Crimson Dynamo]

who cares as they are dead?

[Shaun]

US Defence Secretary Leon Panetta says a video which appears to show US Marines urinating on the corpses of Afghans is "utterly deplorable".

Those who had taken part in the incident would be held accountable "to the fullest extent", he said.

The video, which was posted online, purports to show four US Marines standing over the bodies of several Taliban fighters, at least one of whom is covered in blood.

The origin of the video is not known.

Mr Panetta has ordered the commander of US and Nato forces in Afghanistan, General John Allen, to investigate the incident.

In a statement, Mr Panetta said he had seen the footage, and the Pentagon confirmed that he had spoken by telephone with Afghan President Hamid Karzai.

With nothing to suggest the video is fake, the Obama administration is in full-on damage limitation mode. The Pentagon issued a swift and strongly worded condemnation of the apparent abuse, and has highlighted the defence secretary's apologetic phone call to President Karzai.

Clearly, this is an embarrassment for an administration which pledged to project a more sensitive image of US military power. The timing is also problematic, to say the least. The video surfaced as the Americans, the Taliban and the Karzai government had been shuffling towards peace talks.

Washington will be relieved to hear that, in spite of this incident, the Taliban seem to be leaving open the door to dialogue.

The best-case scenario for the administration is that an inquiry quickly roots out the wrongdoers. And, of course, that no other videos are out there waiting to be uploaded.

"I find the behaviour depicted in it utterly deplorable. This conduct is entirely inappropriate for members of the United States military."

The defence secretary's statement is the latest in a round of denunciations since the video emerged.

The Pentagon says it is checking the authenticity of the video, but there is nothing to indicate that the film is not genuine.

Mr Panetta did not dispute the authenticity.

In a separate news conference, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton expressed her "total dismay" at the video.

Mrs Clinton said she shared Mr Panetta's view that such behaviour was inconsistent with the standards the "that vast, vast majority of our personnel - particularly our marines - hold themselves to".

The video did not change the tone of US efforts to secure Afghanistan, she said, saying the US continued to support security and reconciliation efforts that were "Afghan-led and Afghan-owned".

Tentative moves are being made towards peace in the country, ahead of the planned withdrawal of international combat forces by the end of 2014.

Hillary Clinton joined a chorus of condemnation from Washington

The US has about 20,000 Marines deployed in Afghanistan, based mostly in Kandahar and Helmand provinces. In total, about 90,000 US troops are on the ground in Afghanistan.

The Taliban said last week that they were working to set up a political office, possibly in Qatar, that would help to facilitate negotiations with the Afghan government and Nato countries.

The video has not yet been circulated widely in Afghanistan, but there are fears that it could provoke further violence against international forces.

A statement from the International Security Assistance Force (Isaf) in Kabul said the behaviour "dishonours the sacrifices and core values of every service member representing the fifty nations of the coalition."

Earlier, Afghan President Karzai's office said: "The government of Afghanistan is deeply disturbed by a video that shows American soldiers desecrating dead bodies of three Afghans.

"This act by American soldiers is simply inhuman and condemnable in the strongest possible terms. We expressly ask the US government to urgently investigate the video and apply the most severe punishment to anyone found guilty in this crime."

Taliban spokesman Qari Yousuf Ahmadi told the BBC that this was not the first time Americans had carried out such a "wild action" and that Taliban attacks on the Americans would continue.

But a different Taliban spokesman, Zabihullah Mujahid, said the video "is not a political process, so the video will not harm our talks and prisoner exchange because they are at the preliminary stage".

Afghan Member of Parliament Fawzia Kofi said ordinary Afghans, no matter how they felt about the Taliban, would be upset by the video.

"It's a matter of a human being, respect to a human being," she told the BBC.

"I believe that the brutal acts that the Taliban did here during their government and even now is condemned by Afghans. So is watching a brutal act by international forces. We condemn that as well," she added.

The Taliban are known for applying a ruthless brand of Islamic Sharia law in areas they control and have carried out many suicide bombings and attacks which have killed civilians.

:o

Video: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-16534289

[arista]

who cares as they are dead?


America Cares

[GypsyGoth]

This is another reason to get cremated.

[Shasown]

who cares as they are dead?

The local populace do, its not good to desecrate bodies in anyones eyes, but especially in the Muslim eyes. Especially if the bodies are muslims and the desecrators are infidels

after all they are the ones who the UN protection force are trying to win over

[nicole_burks]

Just saw it on the news.. they said that they've identified some of them, and that the Afghan president wants the worst possible punishment.

[_Seth]

Don't blame them after what the Taliban have done.

[Marc]

Absolutely disgusting, they are human beings. I might be seen as naive with my opinion but I don't believe anybody deserves to have their body treated like that once they've died, perhaps ignorant of me but I would like to think there is not one single person in th world who see this as acceptable and that not one person regards this as 'not a bad thing'.

It's awful

[Wildcat!]

I dont know why people act all surprised or outraged by this. I am muslim, I feel bad for the dead, but this is what war does. War is ugly, horrible, and brings out the worst in people. When you ser your comerades explode in front of you, you built up resentment and hatred. Soldiers turn into animals, thats why they need therapy afterwards. Afghans probably are just as bad with the dead of the enemy. I just dont understnd why these idiots keep filming and taking pictures of their atrocities. If you keep it, its bound to pop out somewhere. Who knows what they did to Osama Bin Ladin's body. Hopefully the morons didnt film that.

But these kind of things are what happens with war. War is always ugly. Not neat and tidy like they wanna let you believe. Especially for prisoners, or dead bodies.
Its quite amusing seeing the military leaders all outraged, when they all do it. Some are just stupid and deranged enough, to film it, and keep it, as a souvenir.
I am sure the taliban arent bothered.

[arista]

Don't blame them after what the Taliban have done.


The Americans Carpet Bombed Iraq
at the start of this mess. Murdering the General Public
That Stinks


Both Sides are Guilty

[lostalex]

Really horrible.

I don't know what's more disappointing, what they actually did, or the fact that they were stupid enough to record it and post it on youtube.

The fact is they are putting their fellow soldiers in more danger now because it's gonna be propaganda for the Taliban to recruit more members.

I heard that this particular group or regiment, whatever it's called was on their 6th tour of duty, 6 full tours would definitely be very stressful i think, so i'm not really that upset about what they actually did, and can understand it, even though it was disgusting.

I heard someone on the BBC WHYS make an interesting point, which was that when you have to kill people, you have to lose respect for them, and degrade them in your head, because if you actually had respect for them then you wouldn't have killled them in the first place. I think that makes sense, if you are going to be able to kill someone, you first have to dehumanize them in your head.

I can't imagine what it would be like to be a soldier in a war zone, so i'm trying not to be too judgemental, but this was definitely unacceptable, and there should be some type of disciplinary action against them.

[King Gizzard]

Was just about to say what lostalex said, just gives al-Qadda and the taliban more hate propaganda, stupid

[Marc]

Really horrible.

I don't know what's more disappointing, what they actually did, or the fact that they were stupid enough to record it and post it on youtube.

The fact is they are putting their fellow soldiers in more danger now because it's gonna be propaganda for the Taliban to recruit more members.

I heard that this particular group or regiment, whatever it's called was on their 6th tour of duty, 6 full tours would definitely be very stressful i think, so i'm not really that upset about what they actually did, and can understand it, even though it was disgusting.

I heard someone on the BBC WHYS make an interesting point, which was that when you have to kill people, you have to lose respect for them, and degrade them in your head, because if you actually had respect for them then you wouldn't have killled them in the first place. I think that makes sense, if you are going to be able to kill someone, you first have to dehumanize them in your head.

I can't imagine what it would be like to be a soldier in a war zone, so i'm trying not to be too judgemental, but this was definitely unacceptable, and there should be some type of disciplinary action against them.

Yes valid point but as a human being who doesn't think like a soilder you should be judgemental because it's disgusting.

[_Seth]

I had been brought up to believe the Taliban did all the wrong...

[Livia]

I dont know why people act all surprised or outraged by this. I am muslim, I feel bad for the dead, but this is what war does. War is ugly, horrible, and brings out the worst in people. When you ser your comerades explode in front of you, you built up resentment and hatred. Soldiers turn into animals, thats why they need therapy afterwards. Afghans probably are just as bad with the dead of the enemy. I just dont understnd why these idiots keep filming and taking pictures of their atrocities. If you keep it, its bound to pop out somewhere. Who knows what they did to Osama Bin Ladin's body. Hopefully the morons didnt film that.

But these kind of things are what happens with war. War is always ugly. Not neat and tidy like they wanna let you believe. Especially for prisoners, or dead bodies.
Its quite amusing seeing the military leaders all outraged, when they all do it. Some are just stupid and deranged enough, to film it, and keep it, as a souvenir.
I am sure the taliban arent bothered.


I agree with Wildat on this one. While I don't for one moment condone this, do we think that the Taliban treat their dead enemies' bodies with respect?

Putting stuff like this on Youtube will not help the cause, and I'm not referring just to the USA, but to all the allies serving out there, our own troops included. I'm sure many people will be outraged when they watch this. But you cannot train young men to be soldiers, send them to war, to witness the death and maiming of their friends and colleagues, then expect them to behave in an exemplary manner with the bodies of the enemy. Unless you're a soldier, unless you've served in these conditions, I'm not sure any of us can really understand the pressure they are under nor what would prompt them to do something like this.

[lostalex]

I had been brought up to believe the Taliban did all the wrong...

Well the Taliban have certainly done worse to the dead bodies of coalition troops, that is true.

[lostalex]

I wonder what the soldiers did to Osama Bin Ladens body before they threw him overboard in the middle of the Gulf. I think it's pretty certain they didn't have much respect for that madman's body eigther.

Let's be fair.

If someone was responsible for the deaths of your friends and families, is pissing on the graves of their killers really that wrong?

If someone killed my friends and family, i'd kill them and piss on their graves too. I wouldn't video tape it and put it on youtube though.

I'm more concerned about the propaganda factor than the actual act of pissing on them.

[Marc]

There's no fair and there's no getting back at people. It's disgusting whatever 'side' you're on.

[lostalex]

There's no fair and there's no getting back at people. It's disgusting whatever 'side' you're on.


..but we're the "good guys" :nono:

you need to watch more hollywood movies...

[Tom4784]

There's no defending this, The whole 'oh but the Taliban wouldn't treat our dead with respect' point people have been saying is just repugnant. Just because the Taliban don't always fight fair doesn't mean it gives the right for the forces to commit acts like this. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Why should we lower ourselves to their standards? It'd just void everything we're trying to achieve in Afghanistan.

[lostalex]

There's no defending this, The whole 'oh but the Taliban wouldn't treat our dead with respect' point people have been saying is just repugnant. Just because the Taliban don't always fight fair doesn't mean it gives the right for the forces to commit acts like this. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Why should we lower ourselves to their standards? It'd just void everything we're trying to achieve in Afghanistan.

Is pissing on a dead person really that bad though? I mean they are already dead. Whther they went to "paradise" to have sex with 72 virgins, or whether they are burning in hell for all eternity, eigther way they are long gone from this world. Every cell in their bodies will melt back into the earth, with or without being pissed on.

[MTVN]

There's no defending this, The whole 'oh but the Taliban wouldn't treat our dead with respect' point people have been saying is just repugnant. Just because the Taliban don't always fight fair doesn't mean it gives the right for the forces to commit acts like this. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Why should we lower ourselves to their standards? It'd just void everything we're trying to achieve in Afghanistan.

Yes exactly, it's madness to be in Afghanistan on the basis of bringing democracy to the country and then go and try and downplay this act as if it doesn't go against everything they're supposedly fighting for. That doesn't just make it disgusting, it makes it hypocritical as well.

And let's not forget that despoiling the dead is also illegal under both the Geneva convention and under US military law, they will hopefully face prosecution

[Livia]

There's no defending this, The whole 'oh but the Taliban wouldn't treat our dead with respect' point people have been saying is just repugnant. Just because the Taliban don't always fight fair doesn't mean it gives the right for the forces to commit acts like this. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Why should we lower ourselves to their standards? It'd just void everything we're trying to achieve in Afghanistan.

It's easy to sit safely at home and say things like this.

[Livia]

.......And let's not forget that despoiling the dead is also illegal under both the Geneva convention and under US military law, they will hopefully face prosecution

Perhaps someone will be good enough to send a copy of the Geneva Convention to the Taliban.

[MTVN]

Perhaps someone will be good enough to send a copy of the Geneva Convention to the Taliban.

Bit of a moot point, the Taliban have never claimed to uphold the Geneva convention as the US do, or make such things illegal under their own military law. It doesn't seem much of an argument to me to say that "well the Taliban do it to", the Taliban also use suicide bombings but that wouldn't be a justification for NATO forces to start using them

[Tom4784]

Perhaps someone will be good enough to send a copy of the Geneva Convention to the Taliban.

If we lower ourselves to commit such acts then tell me, what makes us any better then them?

It's easy to sit safely at home and say things like this.

It's also easy not to piss over corpses but it didn't stop these soldiers didn't it?

[lostalex]

Yes exactly, it's madness to be in Afghanistan on the basis of bringing democracy to the country and then go and try and downplay this act as if it doesn't go against everything they're supposedly fighting for. That doesn't just make it disgusting, it makes it hypocritical as well.

And let's not forget that despoiling the dead is also illegal under both the Geneva convention and under US military law, they will hopefully face prosecution


the geneva conventions are a joke, as is the UN, when's the last time western europe or the UN actually got stuck in to solve a problem. IF the UN did it's job then maybe the Iraq and Afghan wars would never have happened. If the UN actually did any thing at all, why does no one ask, why isn't the UN actually doing **** to stop wars???

WHat has the UN done against the taliban everytime they break the Geneva conventions??? Abosolutely NOTHING.

The UN is a pathetic joke.

[MTVN]

the geneva conventions are a joke, as is the UN, when's the last time western europe or the UN actually got stuck in to solve a problem. IF the UN did it's job then maybe the Iraq and Afghan wars would never have happened. If the UN actually did any thing at all, why does no one ask, why isn't the UN actually doing **** to stop wars???

WHat has the UN done against the taliban everytime they break the Geneva conventions??? Abosolutely NOTHING.

Are the US Military Laws a joke?

The UN is currently involved in 16 peacekeeping missions worldwide, a lot of them in places most people don't give a sh*t about or aren't reported

And see my above post, plus it's quite hard to actually prosecute the Taliban given the circumstances. We just kill them instead.

[lostalex]

Are the US Military Laws a joke?

The UN is currently involved in 16 peacekeeping missions worldwide, a lot of them in places most people don't give a sh*t about or aren't reported

And see my above post, plus it's quite hard to actually prosecute the Taliban given the circumstances. We just kill them instead.


Yea and alot of those peace keeping missions, we hear about the "peacekeepers" raping little girls and spreading diseases, so what's yur point??
The relief effort in Haiti, led by UN peacekeepers, the UN brought Cholera into Haiti, how many times have we heard about the UN peacekeepers being accused of pedophilia and rape in Africa?? too many to count.

The UN "peacekeepers" are much worse than anything we've seen from US and NATO troops.

[MTVN]

Yea and alot of those peace keeping missions, we hear about the "peacekeepers" raping little girls and spreading diseases, so what's yur point??
The relief effort in Haiti, led by UN peacekeepers, the UN brought Cholera into Haiti, how many times have we heard about the UN peacekeepers being accused of pedophilia and rape in Africa?? too many to count.

The UN "peacekeepers" are much worse than anything we've seen from US and NATO troops.

Hmm I don't know that much about the UN peacekeepers tbh and this is going a bit off topic, but fact remains the US have signed and ratified the Geneva convention, and this act is illegal under both that and their own military law

[lostalex]

Hmm I don't know that much about the UN peacekeepers tbh and this is going a bit off topic, but fact remains the US have signed and ratified the Geneva convention, and this act is illegal under both that and their own military law

Well i agree, the US should hold itself to a higher standard, and this video is disgraceful, and i'm sure all involved will be punished.

Perhaps we should be holding EVERYONE to such a high standard though, that's my only point.

[MTVN]

Well i agree, the US should hold itself to a higher standard, and this video is disgraceful, and i'm sure all involved will be punished.

Perhaps we should be holding EVERYONE to such a high standard though, that's my only point.

Well the Taliban are technically accountable to the Geneva convention but like I said it's not exactly easy to prosecute them while the war is going on, but if, for example, Bin Laden had been captured instead of just killed then he would have too have been prosecuted under the convention

[lostalex]

Well the Taliban are technically accountable to the Geneva convention but like I said it's not exactly easy to prosecute them while the war is going on, but if, for example, Bin Laden had been captured instead of just killed then he would have too have been prosecuted under the convention

The Taliban are not subject to the Geneva convention because they do not have a country or uniforms or a government.


An interesting question though, would it be better for the world for Bin Laden to have had a world wide platform to speak his hate? Would it benefit the world in any way for him to have a platform in court to spread his hateful propaganda and paint himself as a victim? Or is it actually better that he never got that chance?

Sometimes doing the right thing isn't pretty. Sometimes denying people rights is actually protecting other peoples rights.

It is illegal to preach racism in Europe right? You can be put in jail in Europe for saying something racist. Personally i believe in free speech, but maybe sometimes, you should protect people from very manipulative speech that could cause more violence.

[Wildcat!]

There's no defending this, The whole 'oh but the Taliban wouldn't treat our dead with respect' point people have been saying is just repugnant. Just because the Taliban don't always fight fair doesn't mean it gives the right for the forces to commit acts like this. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Why should we lower ourselves to their standards? It'd just void everything we're trying to achieve in Afghanistan.

We all agree, that its disgusting and appaling. Its safe to say, most people would never do such a thing. My point is, it does happen, all the time, in war situations, on any side. So, I am not shocked watsoever. This is a reason, to avoid putting people in those situations, at all costs. Soldiers commit atrocities, they sometimes kill, or see innocent civilians being killed. So they are all somewhat, scared for life, because they would never do such a thing otherwise. These are usually regular people, some just teenagers wanting to get paid. Because you make good money, if youre deployed. But the things that they see, and do, turn them into neanderthals. Not saying everyone has done such things, directly. But they've all seen it, or been around it. Only because o the soldiers code, they dont put it in any reports. Unfortunately, people like to film everything these days, thats why, more and more are revealed now. But its nothing new, or surprising.

[Wildcat!]

Is pissing on a dead person really that bad though? I mean they are already dead. Whther they went to "paradise" to have sex with 72 virgins, or whether they are burning in hell for all eternity, eigther way they are long gone from this world. Every cell in their bodies will melt back into the earth, with or without being pissed on.

ITS BAD because you are supposed to respect the dead, no matter what, even executed criminals, gets a proper respect and burial.
I thing everyone will agree, that its 'THAT BAD". The only thing is, I am not surprised, that it does happen.

[lostalex]

ITS BAD because you are supposed to respect the dead, no matter what, even executed criminals, gets a proper respect and burial.
I thing everyone will agree, that its 'THAT BAD". The only thing is, I am not surprised, that it does happen.

i didn't say it's not bad, I asked is it THAT bad...

Is it comparable to waterboarding live human beings? i think not.

Is it comparable to the Abuse of live prisoners in Abu Graib? i think not.

I'm just sayin it's not THAT bad.

I remember like 4 or 5 years ago there a video of a US marine throwing a dog off a cliff. Is this even as bad as that? i don't think so.

Compared to the other scandals in the "war on terrorism" it doesn't seem THAT bad to me.

It's wrong, but is it THAT wrong?

[CharlieO]

Put all men together in an army this is what you get. Men will always try to act like 'lads' in front of each other to impress. Though I am truly disgusted by this.

[Shasown]

i didn't say it's not bad, I asked is it THAT bad...

Is it comparable to waterboarding live human beings? i think not.

Is it comparable to the Abuse of live prisoners in Abu Graib? i think not.

I'm just sayin it's not THAT bad.

I remember like 4 or 5 years ago there a video of a US marine throwing a dog off a cliff. Is this even as bad as that? i don't think so.

Compared to the other scandals in the "war on terrorism" it doesn't seem THAT bad to me.

It's wrong, but is it THAT wrong?

There are different degrees on wrongness, torture may be deemed necessary in order to obtain information that could save lives, note the word could, Sometimes it doesnt.

Abuse of live prisoners is as wrong as body desecration, creates the same results, hate from the people we need on our side.


Put all men together in an army this is what you get. Men will always try to act like 'lads' in front of each other to impress. Though I am truly disgusted by this.

Sorry Charlie but thats garbage. Its not about acting the lad or being macho

Its caused by the elation of still being alive when rounds are flying and others are dying.

Its about the feelings after action of guilt and pure and utter happinesss not to be lying either dead or covered in your own blood and s**t.

During any sort of combat the adrenaline flows as do other hormones and chemicals.

Afterwards you come down fast, but you are still buzzing. Only problem is the normal inhibitions we impose have been loosened by the buzz and fear. You sit giggling, minor things are hilarious, you are floating in something called the joie de vivre - the ecstatic elation of being alive.

Dont think this posing thing is anything new, its happened during and after battles throughout history, only difference is nowadays the troops carry mobile phones with cameras or even hand held DV recorders.

[Niamh.]

Absolutely disgusting, they are human beings. I might be seen as naive with my opinion but I don't believe anybody deserves to have their body treated like that once they've died, perhaps ignorant of me but I would like to think there is not one single person in th world who see this as acceptable and that not one person regards this as 'not a bad thing'.

It's awful

This.

[Jesus.]

I'm no fan of the American empire, and on the surface this seems like a really bad story. However, I think it's worse for people that have a religious belief, which the taliban obviously do.

Once I am no more in this life, then that's it for me. All that will be left is soon to be rotting flesh, and the beginning of a new ecology for fly eggs/maggots etc.

I can only relate this to how I would feel, and would I be bothered if someone took a piss on me when I was dead?

The simple answer is no, although, the American Empire will not be winning any hearts and minds with these actions.

[lostalex]

I'm no fan of the American empire, and on the surface this seems like a really bad story. However, I think it's worse for people that have a religious belief, which the taliban obviously do.

Once I am no more in this life, then that's it for me. All that will be left is soon to be rotting flesh, and the beginning of a new ecology for fly eggs/maggots etc.

I can only relate this to how I would feel, and would I be bothered if someone took a piss on me when I was dead?

The simple answer is no, although, the American Empire will not be winning any hearts and minds with these actions.


the "american empire" was defeated in 1776. so what are you talking about?

[Jesus.]

the "american empire" was defeated in 1776. so what are you talking about?

America has an unofficial empire. The troops they have across the world in unnecessary countries attest to that fact.

[Crimson Dynamo]

The local populace do, its not good to desecrate bodies in anyones eyes, but especially in the Muslim eyes. Especially if the bodies are muslims and the desecrators are infidels

after all they are the ones who the UN protection force are trying to win over

I could not give a FF about muslims and their medieval superstitions. Actions like this will remind them that no one cares about what they think and ultimately whilst they walking around in their socks praying to a made up diety the rest of the world are looking at porn on their Ipad 2's and eating ice cream. :wavey:

[lostalex]

America has an unofficial empire. The troops they have across the world in unnecessary countries attest to that fact.

unneccesary countries? really? unneccessary when we protected you from the Soviet Union? Unnecesary in the Japan? Really? if you don't see how those bases were necessary, then you need to read a history book.

Try to have some historical perspective please.

the USA does not have any military bases in any country without the explicit permission from those countries. The USA doesn't force it's presence on anyone.

[Jesus.]

unneccesary countries? really? unneccessary when we protected you from the Soviet Union? Unnecesary in the Japan? Really? if you don't see how those bases were necessary, then you need to read a history book.

Try to have some historical perspective please.

Protected us from the soviet union? Kennedy nearly got us all wiped out in a nuclear war over Cuba.

America has troops in between 100-200 countries. You still haven't left Germany yet. I'm not calling America "the great satan" or anything, but you have a very narrow perspective on your view of history. The cold war is now over, so why do you still need these bases? You actually said it yourself. Those bases "were" necessary.

I know my history, very well, and refuse to whitewash the despicable acts that my own country has perpetrated throughout history. If you expect me to be anything other than objective, you are sadly mistaken, and your defence is pretty lacking in any kind of substance.

[lostalex]

Protected us from the soviet union? Kennedy nearly got us all wiped out in a nuclear war over Cuba.

America has troops in between 100-200 countries. You still haven't left Germany yet. I'm not calling America "the great satan" or anything, but you have a very narrow perspective on your view of history. The cold war is now over, so why do you still need these bases? You actually said it yourself. Those bases "were" necessary.

I know my history, very well, and refuse to whitewash the despicable acts that my own country has perpetrated throughout history. If you expect me to be anything other than objective, you are sadly mistaken, and your defence is pretty lacking in any kind of substance.

If it wasn't for America, you'd be a Soviet Republic right now. Don't forget that. You had no defense from the soviets just like the rest of post war europe. The only reason democracy survived in Europe was because of American protection. That's a SOLID FACT.

[Crimson Dynamo]

ITS BAD because you are supposed to respect the dead, no matter what, even executed criminals, gets a proper respect and burial.
I thing everyone will agree, that its 'THAT BAD". The only thing is, I am not surprised, that it does happen.

dude, they just shot them dead with a high powered rifle. I would think that respect may take a back seat here


i would be looking for the pre-death respect

[Jesus.]

If it wasn't for America, you'd be a Soviet Republic right now. Don't forget that. You had no defense from the soviets just like the rest of post war europe. The only reason democracy survived in Europe was because of American protection. That's a SOLID FACT.

And this is relevant, how?

I've never stated that America has never done anything good, I just said you have an unofficial empire - which you demonstrably do.

Your point reads a little like "if my auntie had bollocks, she'd be my uncle". No one knows what would have played out after WWII. There are no solid facts in speculation.

[lostalex]

And this is relevant, how?

I've never stated that America has never done anything good, I just said you have an unofficial empire - which you demonstrably do.

Your point reads a little like "if my auntie had bollocks, she'd be my uncle". No one knows what would have played out after WWII. There are no solid facts in speculation.
No, America is not an Empire, an Empire conquors. America is invited into every country it has military personel in.

Name one country where there are American military personel that are not given permission by the country they are in??

You make no sense.

[Jesus.]

No, America is not an Empire, an Empire conquors. America is invited into every country it has military personel in.

Name one country where there are American military personel that are not given permission by the country they are in??

You make no sense.

Iraq. Afghanistan. What do I win?

[lostalex]

Iraq. Afghanistan. What do I win?

America military is not in Iraq we left last year, and America is asked to be in Afghanistan by the democratically elected government of Afghanistan. If the Afghan government asked all American troops to leave tomorrow, we'd be out.

[MTVN]

America military is not in Iraq we left last year, and America is asked to be in Afghanistan by the democratically elected government of Afghanistan. If the Afghan government asked all American troops to leave tomorrow, we'd be out.

You mean the guy that the West installed as leader of their puppet government and who heads one of the most corrupt countries in the world where electoral fraud is rife? That democratically elected government? :joker::joker:

[Glenn.]

-thinks its funny- :idc:

[Shasown]

America military is not in Iraq we left last year, and America is asked to be in Afghanistan by the democratically elected government of Afghanistan. If the Afghan government asked all American troops to leave tomorrow, we'd be out.

Talk about ignoring the truth.

There are still US military training teams in Iraq.

Saddam Hussein didnt invite US forces into the country in the first place nor did the Taliban invite US forces into Afghanistan. I think the fact that both of those fought the Americans when they decided to pop into those countries could be seen as a request for the American forces to leave.

[Me. I Am Salman]

sick vile twats
there is no way of condoning this sort of behaviour AT ALL.

[Me. I Am Salman]

theyre making problems for america worse.

[Mystic Mock]

Why did they urinate on dead bodies for? it's unnecessary and vulgar.

[Shasown]

Why did they urinate on dead bodies for? it's unnecessary and vulgar.

Possibly to show their contempt for the enemy that they had just taken out in a firefight. To show how macho they were and to pose for the prat with the camera.

[Mystic Mock]

Possibly to show their contempt for the enemy that they had just taken out in a firefight. To show how macho they were and to pose for the prat with the camera.

It's just vile though,afterall those Afghans was only following orders from currupt higher ups in Al Qaeda.

[Me. I Am Salman]

Why did they urinate on dead bodies for? it's unnecessary and vulgar.

this.

[Me. I Am Salman]

doesnt matter who you are. nobody deserves to get pissed on when they die. pricks need to be chucked out the army NOW!!

[lostalex]

You mean the guy that the West installed as leader of their puppet government and who heads one of the most corrupt countries in the world where electoral fraud is rife? That democratically elected government? :joker::joker:

No, i mean the democratically elected leader/goverment of Afghanistan, election monitored by the UN and many independent witnesses. you think elections were more free under the Taliban?? The people voted in that election under the thread of death by the Taliban terrorists, how dare you degrade those brave people's votes.

When's the last time you had to go out to vote under the threat from terrorists? I think it's very sad that you are trying to demean the effort put by the brave souls that voted in that election. Voting in that country is literally takes epic bravery, and for you to demean that disgusts me.

[Shasown]

No, i mean the democratically elected leader/goverment of Afghanistan, election monitored by the UN and many independent witnesses. you think elections were more free under the Taliban?? The people voted in that election under the thread of death by the Taliban terrorists, how dare you degrade those brave people's votes.

When's the last time you had to go out to vote under the threat from terrorists? I think it's very sad that you are trying to demean the effort put by the brave souls that voted in that election.

Nice try. :joker::joker::joker::joker:

Moral outrage, while attempting to divert everyone from the fact you got pwned.

PMSL

[lostalex]

this.


Why did the Native Americans cut off the scalps of white settlers in America after the various battles?

Taking trophies and demeaning the dead of the enemy is part of war historically. This is not new.

[lostalex]

Nice try. :joker::joker::joker::joker:

Moral outrage, while attempting to divert everyone from the fact you got pwned.

PMSL

It's not my job to educate you. If you have a problem with the elections in Afghanistan, take it up with the UN who supervised it.

[Shasown]

doesnt matter who you are. nobody deserves to get pissed on when they die. pricks need to be chucked out the army NOW!!

Try telling that to a group of generally poorly educated young men who a few minutes earlier were fighting for their lives. Men who go through the same sort of extreme high pressure day, for weeks on end.

Men who know if they get taken captive by the enemy who hates them with a religious fervour wont be treated according to the Geneva Convention but will be tortured in the most painful way by that same enemy.

Live under those conditions for a few weeks and maybe you will start to understand why they did what they did.

[MTVN]

No, i mean the democratically elected leader/goverment of Afghanistan, election monitored by the UN and many independent witnesses. you think elections were more free under the Taliban?? The people voted in that election under the thread of death by the Taliban terrorists, how dare you degrade those brave people's votes.

When's the last time you had to go out to vote under the threat from terrorists? I think it's very sad that you are trying to demean the effort put by the brave souls that voted in that election. Voting in that country is literally takes epic bravery, and for you to demean that disgusts me.

Lmao I'm not demeaning the voters, if anything you are by making out they were taking part in legitimate elections under a legitimate government

You realise Afghanistan is the 3rd most corrupt country in the world http://www.transparency.org/policy_research/surveys_indices/cpi/2010/results

And that there was a lot of evidence of fraud in the last elections http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-11353711

[Shasown]

It's not my job to educate you. If you have a problem with the elections in Afghanistan, take it up with the UN who supervised it.

Its a good thing it isnt your job because you would fail miserably.

I dont have a problems with elections in Afghanistan, they dont affect me, and am wise enough to realise the situation in that part of the world is what it is.

I do however have a problem with people who post their opinion then when challenged on it try in some way to throw dirt at others.

[lostalex]

Lmao I'm not demeaning the voters, if anything you are by making out they were taking part in legitimate elections under a legitimate government

You realise Afghanistan is the 3rd most corrupt country in the world http://www.transparency.org/policy_research/surveys_indices/cpi/2010/results

And that there was a lot of evidence of fraud in the last elections http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-11353711
well really that only shows how transparent they are, even if it was transparently currupt. how many government are holding elections that have no monitorring and no one see's how currupt they are?

When's the last time China even had an election? just out of curiosity...

[lostalex]

Its a good thing it isnt your job because you would fail miserably.

I dont have a problems with elections in Afghanistan, they dont affect me, and am wise enough to realise the situation in that part of the world is what it is.

I do however have a problem with people who post their opinion then when challenged on it try in some way to throw dirt at others.

ok, so after yu throw dirt, you don't like people to throw it back? really?

something about black houses and glass kettles comes to mind... wait, what?

[Shasown]

ok, so after yu throw dirt, you don't like people to throw it back? really?

something about black kettles and glass houses comes to mind... hmmmm

You mean kettles and pots and grimey arses? Or throwing stones in Glass houses?

Looks like you are suffering from a bad case of mixed metaphors mate.

If you want to educate us at least get your proverbs correct. People might even look upon your posts as more than some ramblings from a PTT

[lostalex]

You mean kettles and pots and grimey arses? Or throwing stones in Glass houses?

Looks like you are suffering from a bad case of mixed metaphors mate.

If you want to educate us at least get your proverbs correct. People might even look upon your posts as more than some ramblings from a PTT


you just don't get the American sense of humor...

[MTVN]

well really that only shows how transparent they are, even if it was transparently currupt. how many government are holding elections that have no monitorring and no one see's how currupt they are?

When's the last time China even had an election? just out of curiosity...

A couple of days ago actually http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_China_presidential_election,_2012#Resu lt

[lostalex]

A couple of days ago actually http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_China_presidential_election,_2012#Resu lt

really?

[Shasown]

you just don't get the American sense of humor...

Just like the existance of god, am still waiting for proof.


Another smokescreen there, Al?

[Me. I Am Salman]

Try telling that to a group of generally poorly educated young men who a few minutes earlier were fighting for their lives. Men who go through the same sort of extreme high pressure day, for weeks on end.

Men who know if they get taken captive by the enemy who hates them with a religious fervour wont be treated according to the Geneva Convention but will be tortured in the most painful way by that same enemy.

Live under those conditions for a few weeks and maybe you will start to understand why they did what they did.

i still wouldn't piss on a dead human being.

[Shasown]

i still wouldn't piss on a dead human being.

There is an aphorism/adage credited to the Native American that states you should never condemn a man till you have walked a mile (spent a day/week) in his moccasins.

Go through the same things and see how you react before you criticise too hashly.

[lostalex]

Just like the existance of god, am still waiting for proof.


Another smokescreen there, Al?

don't call me Al, i'm not a truck driver.

[Shasown]

don't call me Al, i'm not a truck driver.


oooh I am sorry, you think there is something wrong with Truck drivers?

[MTVN]

I suppose it's definitely true that war dehumanises people, it'd be stupid to think things like this, and far worse, haven't gone on in almost every war throughout history, they just didn't have phones to film it on

[Jesus.]

Why did the Native Americans cut off the scalps of white settlers in America after the various battles?

Taking trophies and demeaning the dead of the enemy is part of war historically. This is not new.

You really don't want to bring up native Americans as an American. Your treatment of them was appalling, and inexcusable.

[Me. I Am Salman]

There is an aphorism/adage credited to the Native American that states you should never condemn a man till you have walked a mile (spent a day/week) in his moccasins.

Go through the same things and see how you react before you criticise too hashly.

you seem to be condoning their behaviour when even the American government themselves find the act done by their own soldiers disgusting

[lostalex]

You really don't want to bring up native Americans as an American. Your treatment of them was appalling, and inexcusable.

compared to what? compared to the wars for land in europe? you must be joking. North America has nothing to be ashamed of compared to the other continents. North America is the least violent continent in history except for Antartica and Australia(which really isn't a true continent)

South America, Europe, Africa, and Asia have been far worse than anything that's happened in North America.

[Me. I Am Salman]

There is an aphorism/adage credited to the Native American that states you should never condemn a man till you have walked a mile (spent a day/week) in his moccasins.

Go through the same things and see how you react before you criticise too hashly.

so say if someone gave me a hard life. do i have the right to piss on them after they die? :nono:
its inhumane and i cant believe that somebody is actually condoning it

[lostalex]

so say if someone gave me a hard life. do i have the right to piss on them after they die? :nono:
its inhumane and i cant believe that somebody is actually condoning it

i have no problem with someone pissing on a terrorist, dead or alive. i only have a problem with them filming it, because the enemy will use it for propaganda.

[MTVN]

compared to what? compared to the wars for land in europe? you must be joking. North America has nothing to be ashamed of compared to the other continents. North America is the least violent continent in history except for Antartica and Australia(which really isn't a true continent)

South America, Europe, Africa, and Asia have been far worse than anything that's happened in North America.

fgs it isn't a ******ing competition

so say if someone gave me a hard life. do i have the right to piss on them after they die? :nono:
its inhumane and i cant believe that somebody is actually condoning it

It's less about condoning and more about understanding I think, sure it's inhumane but that's what war does

[lostalex]

fgs it isn't a ******ing competition



dunno why yur telling me this. Try telling that to the person i was responding to. let's put things in perspective plzzzz.

[MTVN]

dunno why yur telling me this. Try telling that to the person i was responding to. let's put things in perspective plzzzz.

But every time someone says anything critical about America you insist on making these inane comparisons between the US and Europe to try and show that America is the lesser evil, or that other places are far worse, it's tedious

Yes maybe Jesus H Christ's comment was a bit provocative but he never said that America alone had committed atrocities, why can't we just accept that all countries have blood on their hands without getting overly defensive of the country to which we were born

[lostalex]

But every time someone says anything critical about America you insist on making these inane comparisons between the US and Europe to try and show that America is the lesser evil, or that other places are far worse, it's tedious

Yes maybe Jesus H Christ's comment was a bit provocative but he never said that America alone had committed atrocities, why can't we just accept that all countries have blood on their hands without getting overly defensive of the country to which we were born

Well i think you are ignoring the obvious then. If you don't think i'll respond to criticisim of America by pointing out the hypocrisy of it comming from a European, when Europe is the most violent continent on the planet, i'm sorry, but you arn't looking at things objectively.

How is it weird for me to respond to jibes about America by giving it back to Europe?? You don't understand that really??
What is confusing or unfair about that???

You think there should be a double standard?? Sorry, but i know history, and i'm not gonna let someone from Europe say that America is violent or imperialist, when Europe's history, especially Britains is FAR FAR worse. It's about acknowledging the truth. I'm not British, I'm American, and if you talk trash about America, i'm gonna educate you about the hypocrisy.

[Me. I Am Salman]

i have no problem with someone pissing on a terrorist, dead or alive. i only have a problem with them filming it, because the enemy will use it for propaganda.

:o

[Jesus.]

compared to what? compared to the wars for land in europe? you must be joking. North America has nothing to be ashamed of compared to the other continents. North America is the least violent continent in history except for Antartica and Australia(which really isn't a true continent)

South America, Europe, Africa, and Asia have been far worse than anything that's happened in North America.

I have no problems admitting that England have acted appallingly towards most other countries in the world, at some point or other. That really is a bizarre answer you've provided. I really can't put into words the disgust with which I review our history. Of course, I am fortunate in one regard, that being that I have no patriotic thoughts in my head. I view the country of my birth as nothing more than an accident of my family tree. I have no loyalty to "england" as a whole, only to my friends and family, regardless of where they happen to reside or were born on this planet.

dunno why yur telling me this. Try telling that to the person i was responding to. let's put things in perspective plzzzz.

You're the one that who brought native Americans into this thread. I merely informed you that you were on shaky ground by doing so, which is historically accurate.

[MTVN]

Well i think you are ignoring the obvious then. If you don't think i'll respond to criticisim of America by pointing out the hypocrisy of it comming from a European, when Europe is the most violent continent on the planet, i'm sorry, but you arn't looking at things objectively.

How is it weird for me to respond to jibes about America by giving it back to Europe?? You don't understand that really??
What is confusing or unfair about that???

You think there should be a double standard??
Sorry, but i know history, and i'm not gonna let someone from Europe say that America is violent or imperialist, when Europe's history, especially Britains is FAR FAR worse. It's about acknowledging the truth. I'm not British, I'm American, and if you talk trash about America, i'm gonna educate you about the hypocrisy.

You're missing the point and this is the problem, the citizens of a country are not accountable for what their nation did in the past, nor are they representative of an entire country or continent. Of course European countries have committed atrocities but that doesn't mean Britons shouldn't be allowed to criticise American ones, it doesn't suddenly lose all it's weight.

Why do you view everything as a contest between Europeans and Americans, if someone points out an American atrocity it doesn't mean they are trying to get one over on Americans, and the same if an American criticised British colonialism. You say you know history but you're just reducing it down to a complete point scoring contest.

I'm happy to criticise the UK's history and it's state today, I've done so a lot on here, I'm also going to criticise America because it's futile to take the side of your own country by default. Like with Jesus, I also view my nationality as an accident and hold no loyalty to it which commits me to having to defend it

[Me. I Am Salman]

fgs it isn't a ******ing competition



It's less about condoning and more about understanding I think, sure it's inhumane but that's what war does


if we're trying to understand bad behaviour maybe we should try to understand the terrorists way of thinking too. i bet they werent even terrorists they were just people who were unlawfully killed. wouldnt be surprised as it has been done before by the us troops. what if they were afraid and were just defending themselves and were killed in the process?

[MTVN]

if we're trying to understand bad behaviour maybe we should try to understand the terrorists way of thinking too. i bet they werent even terrorists they were just people who were unlawfully killed. wouldnt be surprised as it has been done before by the us troops. what if they were afraid and were just defending themselves and were killed in the process?

Yes I agree, we should understand terrorists, it's certainly not just a black and white picture of America/Britain = good, Taleban = bad.

[lostalex]

You're missing the point and this is the problem, the citizens of a country are not accountable for what their nation did in the past, nor are they representative of an entire country or continent. Of course European countries have committed atrocities but that doesn't mean Britons shouldn't be allowed to criticise American ones, it doesn't suddenly lose all it's weight.

Why do you view everything as a contest between Europeans and Americans, if someone points out an American atrocity it doesn't mean they are trying to get one over on Americans, and the same if an American criticised British colonialism. You say you know history but you're just reducing it down to a complete point scoring contest.

I'm happy to criticise the UK's history and it's state today, I've done so a lot on here, I'm also going to criticise America because it's futile to take the side of your own country by default. Like with Jesus, I also view my nationality as an accident and hold no loyalty to it which commits me to having to defend it

I think you understand it.

It's like when someone has something nasty to say about your family. Now they may be saying the same things you've said to your own family members, but if someone outside the family says it, you will be defensive. The point is, it's none of your business, you are not American, you are European, you have plenty of problems in Europe, how DARE you have anything to say about America.

You saying something about my family, is not the same as me saying something nasty about my family. Why do Europeans think they have the RIGHT to have a comment? it's none of you're business.

You will not find a single comment on this forum where i criticized Europe without them saying something about America first.

I have no interest in giving my 2 cents into European business. But once you talk about ME and MINE, then the flood gates open. You wanna talk about America, then i have every right to start talking about Europe.

That's fair, imo.

[Me. I Am Salman]

yes i agree, we should understand terrorists, it's certainly not just a black and white picture of america/britain = good, taleban = bad.

THANK YOU :spin:

[lostalex]

Yes I agree, we should understand terrorists, it's certainly not just a black and white picture of America/Britain = good, Taleban = bad.

the taliban arn't bad? The Taliban supported Al Queada, let them have training camps, gave Osama Bin Laden his platform to INVENT 9/11. The Taliban are just as Guilty of 9/11 as Al Queada.

Every single Taliban should be killed, just like they were trying to kill every American. the Taliban were perfectly happy to let OBL kill Americans, now they have the gall to complain that they are the victims? Give me a FOOKING BREAK.

Every death, torture and indignity done to the Taliban is fully justified.

[MTVN]

I think you understand it.

It's like when someone has something nasty to say about your family. Now they may be saying the same things you've said to your own family members, but if someone outside the family says it, you will be defensive. The point is, it's none of your business, you are not American, you are European, you have plenty of problems in Europe, how DARE you have anything to say about America.

You saying something about my family, is not the same as me saying something nasty about my family. Why do Europeans think they have the RIGHT to have a comment? it's none of you're business.

You will not find a single comment on this forum where i criticized Europe without them saying something about America first.

I have no interest in giving my 2 cents into European business. But once you talk about ME and MINE, then the flood gates open. You wanna talk about America, then i have every right to start talking about Europe.

That's fair, imo.

Well that's the crux of the matter, you consider your country a "family" who you should defend no matter what, rightly or wrongly. I don't see it that way, and that kind of thinking is why I'm don't really like patriotism in general, we shouldn't be reluctant to criticise our own country because our nationality is only decided by chance.

And I know you only talk about Europe when people talk about America but that's the problem, it means people can't criticise the US without things turning into some kind of a contest on here. I wouldn't mind if someone actually said something like "Europe is perfect while America is a hellhole" but nobody really does think like that.

[lostalex]

Well that's the crux of the matter, you consider your country a "family" who you should defend no matter what, rightly or wrongly. I don't see it that way, and that kind of thinking is why I'm don't really like patriotism in general, we shouldn't be reluctant to criticise our own country because our nationality is only decided by chance.

And I know you only talk about Europe when people talk about America but that's the problem, it means people can't criticise the US without things turning into some kind of a contest on here. I wouldn't mind if someone actually said something like "Europe is perfect while America is a hellhole" but nobody really does think like that.

So then why are you so offended when i give it back if you arn't defensive about your country and continent??

[MTVN]

the taliban arn't bad? The Taliban supported Al Queada, let them have training camps, gave Osama Bin Laden his platform to INVENT 9/11. The Taliban are just as Guilty of 9/11 as Al Queada.

Every single Taliban should be killed, just like they were trying to kill every American. the Taliban were perfectly happy to let OBL kill Americans, now they have the gall to complain that they are the victims? Give me a FOOKING BREAK.

Every death, torture and indignity done to the Taliban is fully justified.

Again, this is too black and white a picture. It doesn't hurt to understand why people might join the Taliban, or have a different perspective on things. Do you think that if foreign invaders had entered your country and waged war on it for over a decade you wouldn't hold some animosity towards them as well? A lot of them have very legitimate grievances against NATO and the West

[MTVN]

So then why are you so offended when i give it back if you arn't defensive about your country and continent??

Because it derails threads and takes them off-topic, turning things into just plain mud slinging and Britain v America contests

[lostalex]

Again, this is too black and white a picture. It doesn't hurt to understand why people might join the Taliban, or have a different perspective on things. Do you think that if foreign invaders had entered your country and waged war on it for over a decade you wouldn't hold some animosity towards them as well? A lot of them have very legitimate grievances against NATO and the West

foreign invaders? there were no US troops in Afghanistan before 9/11, so wtf are you talking about?? In fact, we actually gave them HELP when the RUSSIANS were invading them, and look what we got for helping them. No good deed goes unpunished.

[lostalex]

Because it derails threads and takes them off-topic, turning things into just plain mud slinging and Britain v America contests

So why arn't you giving tit to the people that try to use America as a scapegoat, instead you are focusing on me. You're making no sense. If someone brings America into the conversation, then i ave every right to respond to them. I'm not the one that brings America into the conversations. As an American though, i do have a responsibility to educate ignorant people about America, if they want to talk lies about my country.

[Jesus.]

So why arn't you giving tit to the people that try to use America as a scapegoat, instead you are focusing on me. You're making no sense. If someone brings America into the conversation, then i ave every right to respond to them. I'm not the one that brings America into the conversations. As an American though, i do have a responsibility to educate ignorant people about America, if they want to talk lies about my country.

Can you identify the lies, please?

[MTVN]

foreign invaders? there were no US troops in Afghanistan before 9/11, so wtf are you talking about?? In fact, we actually gave them HELP when the RUSSIANS were invading them, and look what we got for helping them. No good deed goes unpunished.

Because every single Taliban fighter joined before 9/11 did they? Recruitment has never been so high since the war started

So why arn't you giving tit to the people that try to use America as a scapegoat, instead you are focusing on me. You're making no sense. If someone brings America into the conversation, then i ave every right to respond to them. I'm not the one that brings America into the conversations. As an American though, i do have a responsibility to educate ignorant people about America, if they want to talk lies about my country.

If someone randomly went into a thread and said "America's such a ****hole, Britain is amazing" then yeah but if someone says something about America when it's relevant to the thread or discussion then there's no need to jump in and turn it into a contest by trying to prove the UK/Europe is worse

[lostalex]

Because every single Taliban fighter joined before 9/11 did they? Recruitment has never been so high since the war started



If someone randomly went into a thread and said "America's such a ****hole, Britain is amazing" then yeah but if someone says something about America when it's relevant to the thread or discussion then there's no need to jump in and turn it into a contest by trying to prove the UK/Europe is worse

i have never attacked Britain, i've simply put things into perspective. If i hated Britain and British people then i would be trolling,. and i don't troll. I never start any conversation or post being negative about the UK, ever. If you can prove me wrong please quote any post i've made where i was negative about the UK without provocation.

[Me. I Am Salman]

when American troops potentially put the lives of normal civillians in danger, no wonder more people are signing up to the taliban. they see america as the west sees terrorists.

[lostalex]

Don't try to use America as a scapegoat. I'm critical of America in plenty of threads as well, but if you try to use America as a scapegoat unfairly, then i'll educate you. The fact is there is a lot of xenophobic racists against America on this forum, and i have absolutely no guilt about standing up to them. I have no problem talking about the problems in America when it's fair, but when it's unfair, my back will go up, and i'll get just as nasty in response. And i'm perfectly justified in doing so.

[lostalex]

when American troops potentially put the lives of normal civillians in danger, no wonder more people are signing up to the taliban. they see america as the west sees terrorists.

As oppossed to British troops, or australian c=troops or canadian troops or dutch troopps? why are you singling out American troops? don't be stupid. It's NATO in Afghanistan, not America.

[Jesus.]

Don't try to use America as a scapegoat. I'm critical of America in plenty of threads as well, but if you try to use America as a scapegoat unfairly, then i'll educate you.

Examples of American scapegoating, please?

Examples of the lies you claimed had been spoken in this thread?

[MTVN]

i have never attacked Britain, i've simply put things into perspective. If i hated Britain and British people then i would be trolling,. and i don't troll. I never start any conversation or post being negative about the UK, ever. If you can prove me wrong please quote any post i've made where i was negative about the UK without provocation.

Well a post like this for example: http://www.thisisbigbrother.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4786617&highlight=#post4786617

It was completely uncalled for and irrelevant to the thread.

[lostalex]

Examples of American scapegoating, please?

Examples of the lies you claimed had been spoken in this thread?
lol..
America causes racism, America causes obesity, America causes terrorism, America causes bad movies and destruction of "real culture". need i go on? You must be kidding.

We arn't talking about just THIS thread, obviously. i'm beiong accussed of some how being patriotic and nationalist in all threads, so don't try to make it just about this thread.

[Mystic Mock]

Yes I agree, we should understand terrorists, it's certainly not just a black and white picture of America/Britain = good, Taleban = bad.

I'm sorry MTVN but I have to disagree with you here,Al Qaeda was bad for causing 9/11 when the Americans hadn't even done anything to them at that point.

[MTVN]

I'm sorry MTVN but I have to disagree with you here,Al Qaeda was bad for causing 9/11 when the Americans hadn't even done anything to them at that point.

Even they had their motives though, the US had a military base in Saudi Arabia for example, Bin Laden thought that was a desecration of holy land. And there were the sanctions against Iraq which prevented necessities going into the country and caused huge poverty. And there's obviously the US support for Israel as well.

I'm definitely not saying these justified 9/11 but it's not really true that America hadn't done anything in the Middle East

[Mystic Mock]

Well a post like this for example: http://www.thisisbigbrother.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4786617&highlight=#post4786617

It was completely uncalled for and irrelevant to the thread.

I remember that post.:joker:

[Jesus.]

I'm sorry MTVN but I have to disagree with you here,Al Qaeda was bad for causing 9/11 when the Americans hadn't even done anything to them at that point.

That's just not true. The Americans support the Israeli occupation of Palestine, they have put dictators into place across the Muslim world. Bin Laden was funded by the USA, when he was fighting the Russians.

The US has very dirty hands when it comes to the Muslim world (as does the UK in fairness).

That said, even if the US had agreed to remove all their troops from Muslim lands across the globe, Bin Laden would have still attacked them.

[Jesus.]

lol..
America causes racism, America causes obesity, America causes terrorism, America causes bad movies and destruction of "real culture". need i go on? You must be kidding.

We arn't talking about just THIS thread, obviously. i'm beiong accussed of some how being patriotic and nationalist in all threads, so don't try to make it just about this thread.

Apologies then, but I've never seen/participated in those threads. I thought you were specifically talking about this thread.

[Mystic Mock]

Even they had their motives though, the US had a military base in Saudi Arabia for example, Bin Laden thought that was a desecration of holy land. And there were the sanctions against Iraq which prevented necessities going into the country and caused huge poverty. And there's obviously the US support for Israel as well.

I'm definitely not saying these justified 9/11 but it's not really true that America hadn't done anything in the Middle East

I thought the Iraq war was after the Afghan war? because I remember the Americans was claiming weapons of mass destruction.:joker:

The Americans are not perfect but they hadn't done anything to Afrghanistan which is the only country Bin Laden should have been protecting really,so I don't see why he went for them really.

[MTVN]

I thought the Iraq war was after the Afghan war? because I remember the Americans was claiming weapons of mass distruction.:joker:

The Americans are not perfect but they hadn't done anything to Afrghanistan which is the only country Bin Laden should be protecting really,so I don't see why he went for them really.

It wasn't the first time the US used military action against Iraq though, they also did in the Gulf War after Iraq invaded Kuwait, after which economic sanctions were imposed which was in part responsible for thousands of deaths. And Bin Laden was Saudi I think and most of the hijackers were also from there which is why they were so angered about the American intervention in Saudi Arabia

[Jesus.]

I thought the Iraq war was after the Afghan war? because I remember the Americans was claiming weapons of mass destruction.:joker:

The Americans are not perfect but they hadn't done anything to Afrghanistan which is the only country Bin Laden should have been protecting really,so I don't see why he went for them really.

The first Iraq war in 1990 lead to sanctions against Iraq right up until the 2nd war commenced.

Your history is a little skewed there, too. When the internets is properly working again, you should research the history behind it all, it's really fascinating. But then again, I am a history geek.

[Mystic Mock]

The first Iraq war in 1990 lead to sanctions against Iraq right up until the 2nd war commenced.

Your history is a little skewed there, too. When the internets is properly working again, you should research the history behind it all, it's really fascinating. But then again, I am a history geek.

Yeah ok thanks.

And MTVN I didn't know Bin Laden was Saudi,I assumed he was from Afghanistan considering the Americans was so angry at them at the time.

[Shasown]

As oppossed to British troops, or australian c=troops or canadian troops or dutch troopps? why are you singling out American troops? don't be stupid. It's NATO in Afghanistan, not America.

Wouldnt have anything to do with the fact that the troops urinating on the dead enemy bodies were American would it? It doesnt look to me as if it was a multi national unit desecrating the bodies.

How would you feel if a video appeared on You Tube where a dead American body was being urinated on by members of the Taliban forces? Maybe with subtitles translating what they were saying.

[Shasown]

you seem to be condoning their behaviour when even the American government themselves find the act done by their own soldiers disgusting

Seem to be?

Oh you mean by explaining that life isnt always cut and dried, black or white? And there are often extenuating or mitigating circumstances in incidents like these?

Am neither condemning nor condoning. I think if you read through all my posts in this thread you wont find me supporting what they have done merely explaining why incidents such as these can and do happen.

Sorry for the injection of realism.

[arista]

"Sorry for the injection of realism. "


No Keep at It
We Need Realism

[lostalex]

How would you feel if a video appeared on You Tube where a dead American body was being urinated on by members of the Taliban forces? Maybe with subtitles translating what they were saying.

Umm, they've done much worse to the bodies of dead American troops and i didn't have a thing to say about it. it's expected. not sure what point you're making.

[Shasown]

Umm, they've done much worse to the bodies of dead American troops and i didn't have a thing to say about it. it's expected. not sure what point you're making.

I havent seen any videos posted on You tube though by them doing that have you?

[lostalex]

I havent seen any videos posted on You tube though by them doing that have you?

i've seen videos of them dragging dead american soldiers from the back of trucks with their flesh being scrapped off, stringing them up from light posts and bridges, kicking them around like rag dolls, and ofcourse beheadings.....there are plenty of vids online man.

[Shasown]

i've seen videos of them dragging dead american soldiers from the back of trucks with their flesh being scrapped off, stringing them up from light posts and bridges, kicking them around like rag dolls, and ofcourse beheadings.....there are plenty of vids online man.

Nah I dont think you have, not on You Tube, you may have seen videos posted by some of the smaller Islamic militant groups in Iraq, thats not Afghanistan though and not the Taliban.

Lets not get all confuddled and befused eh?

[lostalex]

Nah I dont think you have, not on You Tube, you may have seen videos posted by some of the smaller Islamic militant groups in Iraq, thats not Afghanistan though and not the Taliban.

Lets not get all confuddled and befused eh?

lol, okay, cause it's not on youtube, that means it's not online?? wtf. I've seen a man **** a chicken too, and that's not on youtube eigther. If you think the only way to see video's online is youtube well you havn't seen much of the internet. the internet is much bigger than YOUTUBE.

[Shasown]

lol, okay, cause it's not on youtube, that means it's not online?? wtf. I've seen a man **** a chicken too, and that's not on youtube eigther. If you think the only way to see video's online is youtube,m well you havn't seen much of the internet. the internet is much bigger than YOUTUBE.

Yep ok then off you go on a tangent.

I asked about being posted on You tube simply because it has a huge following, so vids posted on there are automatically going to be viewed by a wider audience, vids posted on smaller sites like some rag head terrorists home movie site arent going to get viewed by anywhere near as many people.

Love the body swerve on the whole Iraqi militant Afghanistan Taliban thing though.

Tell you what, see if you can find a verifiable video by the Taliban where they mutilate or desecrate a dead American Serviceman.

[lostalex]

Yep ok then off you go on a tangent.

I asked about being posted on You tube simply because it has a huge following, so vids posted on there are automatically going to be viewed by a wider audience, vids posted on smaller sites like some rag head terrorists home movie site arent going to get viewed by anywhere near as many people.

Love the body swerve on the whole Iraqi militant Afghanistan Taliban thing though.

Tell you what, see if you can find a verifiable video by the Taliban where they mutilate or desecrate a dead American Serviceman.

i'm sorry, why do you expect me to PROVE anything to you?? If you wanna find it go find it. I'm not gonna do your homework for you.

I don't need to PROVE that i'm not lying to you. If you don't believe me, well **** you too. i don't care.

[Shasown]

i'm sorry, why do you expect me to PROVE anything to you?? If you wanna find it go find it. I'm not gonna do your homework for you.

Simply to see if you can back up the outlandish claims you have made in this thread mate, as they say either put up or shut up.

[lostalex]

Simply to see if you can back up the outlandish claims you have made in this thread mate, as they say either put up or shut up.

Okay, where's yur bibliography for everything you've said?? :hugesmile: yur being pedantic now.

[Shasown]

Okay, where's yur bibliography for everything you've said?? :hugesmile: yur being pedantic now.

Evasion once again eh?

You claimed the Taliban had.....

Prove it

[lostalex]

Evasion once again eh?

You claimed the Taliban had.....

Prove it

right, i'm being evasive, because you think i'm lying. I'm not gonna search the internet for video's i've watched months, in some cases years ago just to prove to you i'm not lying. I don't give a flying freak if you believe me or not. I have nothing to prove to you.

i don't have to justify or prove what i say to you, and frankly it's disrespectful for you to demand i do. If you think i'm a liar, then fook you too, i don't give a fook.

If you wanna pretend i'm just making sh!t up, well fine, i don't care, doesn't change the facts.

[Shasown]

right, i'm being evasive, because you think i'm lying. I'm not gonna search the internet for video's i've watched months, in some cases years ago just to prove to you i'm not lying. I don't give a flying freak if you believe me or not. I have nothing to prove to you.

i don't have to justiofy or prove what i say to you, and frankly it's disrespectful for you to demand i do. If you think i'm a liar, then fook you too, i don't give a fook.

i dont think you are a liar, I think you dont know what you are talking about.

The Taliban are different from the militants in Iraq, they may be anti american and foreign, that doesnt make them the same.

The video showing the two US servicemen being dragged behind the vehicle was shot in Iraq. Similarly American bodies (the sniper team who had their eyes gouged out etc) were mutilated in Mogadishu. Again not Afghanistan and not the Taliban. Google the names "Kristian Menchaca and Thomas Tucker" And Delta Force snipers Shugart and Gordon - Mogadishu

You said you had seen videos of the Taliban multiating US bodies, beheading people etc.

"Umm, they've done much worse to the bodies of dead American troops "

"i've seen videos of them dragging dead american soldiers from the back of trucks with their flesh being scrapped off, stringing them up from light posts and bridges, kicking them around like rag dolls, and ofcourse beheadings.....there are plenty of vids online man."

I asked you where, is all. Back up what you claim dude, otherwise dont make the claims.

[lostalex]

Obviously i meant the muslim militants in general. Our Enemy. DO you think those soldiers pissing on those bodies gave a fook whether they were taliban, al queada or just some local idiot with a bomb? Ofcourse not. Anyways... Yur just arguing for fun now.

[Shasown]

Obviously i meant the muslim militants in general. Our Enemy. DO you think those soldiers pissing on those bodies gave a fook whether they were taliban, al queada or just some local idiot with a bomb? Ofcourse not. Anyways... Yur just arguing for fun now.


No not arguing for fun just pointing out the errors in your arguments. If you dont want your points picked to bits present facts not wild assed fantasies.

Those troops fell short of the standards expected for combatants under the Law of Armed Conflict, under the US Military Code of Justice and under the laws of the US.

Whether or not the current enemy they are fighting or previous enemies they have fought against did similar or worse is of no consequence, they have standards to live up to. Those marines failed to live up to those standards and should be punished.

[lostalex]

No not arguing for fun just pointing out the errors in your arguments. If you dont want your points picked to bits present facts not wild assed fantasies.

Those troops fell short of the standards expected for combatants under the Law of Armed Conflict, under the US Military Code of Justice and under the laws of the US.

Whether or not the current enemy they are fighting or previous enemies they have fought against did similar or worse is of no consequence, they have standards to live up to. Those marines failed to live up to those standards and should be punished.

nothing i said was "wild" or fantastical.

I agree that the marines should have followed the codes of the marines, and i especially think they shouldn't have filmed themselves acting so unprofessionally. we arn't disagreeing about that.

[Shasown]

nothing i said was "wild" or fantastical.

I agree that the marines should have followed the codes of the marines, and i especially think they shouldn't have filmed themselves acting so unprofessionally. we arn't disagreeing about that.

Wildly inaccurate though.

You said that "Umm, they've done much worse to the bodies of dead American " and "i've seen videos of them dragging dead american soldiers". I am not aware of the Taliban mutilating bodies after death.

When I was in Afghanistan - 2002-2003 (pull up a sandbag and swing that tilley) we all knew to be captured by the Taliban you would be tortured and suffer, but your body when dead would be treated fairly decently. Left where it would be found and recovered relatively quickly.

The reasons for that derive from their religious beliefs, you can do what you like to a person especially an enemy while alive within the examples set in the Hadith, but a body becomes sacrosanct even the body of infidels. Besides they like injuries and torture to be apparent on their enemy so that word of the brutality spreads terror among their enemy.

[lostalex]

You also said that "Umm, they've done much worse to the bodies of dead American " and "i've seen videos of them dragging dead american soldiers". I am not aware of the Taliban mutilating bodies after death.

When I was in Afghanistan - 2002-2003 (pull up a sandbag and swing that tilley) we all knew to be captured by the Taliban you would be tortured and suffer, but your body when dead would be treated fairly decently. Left where it would be found and recovered relatively quickly.

The reasons for that derive from their religious beliefs, you can do what you like to a person especially an enemy while alive within the examples set in the Hadith, but a body becomes sacrosanct even the body of infidels. Besides they like injuries and torture to be apparent on their enemy so that word of the brutality spreads terror among their enemy.

oh well that mustv'e been so comforting. :rolleyes:

I wonder how many of these bodies that were tortured and suffered so much were picked up by these marines? Something tells me, finding yur buddy after being tortured, no matter how respectfully it was treated might not bring them much solace...

[Shasown]

oh well that mustv'e been so comforting. :rolleyes:

I wonder how many of these bodies that were tortured and suffered so much were picked up by these marines? Something tells me, finding yur buddy after being tortured, no matter how respectfully it was treated might not bring them much solace...

By those marines, probably none. There have been very few NATO forces captured or kidnapped by the Taliban, even fewer during the original incursion into the country.

We only had the tales of Russian troops captured on their little holiday there to go on.

Very few of the troops captured by the Taliban over the last few years received any sort of ill treatment.

Those troops might however have seen their mates shot or worse killed or injured by IEDs, not particularly pleasant either way.

[InOne]

liveleak has 1000's of graphic vids from the middle east. Did you see them there lostalex?