Anti-bullying father commits suicide

[Pyramid*]

...I couldn't agree more Angus...and evryone is capable of losing those skills....no matter how 'together' they think they are

No matter how strong he 'may' have felt his wife was in comparison to him, no matter that she may 'appeared' to have possibly been coping more that he felt he had : one thing is for sure: there is nothing quite like a double suicide in an immediate family to smash to smithereens, the coping ability for the person left behind: that tends to figure quite highly on testing human coping skills to the absolute maximum.

The man is out of his misery. His poor wife is the one left to pick up the pieces of an utterly shattered life, twice over.

[Kazanne]

Everyone is naturally responsible for themselves foremost.

I think it would be far more selfish for someone to be guilted into living through mental torture just because their suicide could cause hurt for another. Yes the wife will be hurt but if the action was truly the best thing for the father (as it probably was) she should be at peace that he is in a better place.
Yes it will hurt for her but it would be selfish of her to ask the husband to just stay alive and live through tremendous, never ending pain for her.

Good post CharlieO,you made a good point.

[Pyramid*]

Everyone is naturally responsible for themselves foremost.

I think it would be far more selfish for someone to be guilted into living through mental torture just because their suicide could cause hurt for another. Yes the wife will be hurt but if the action was truly the best thing for the father (as it probably was) she should be at peace that he is in a better place.
Yes it will hurt for her but it would be selfish of her to ask the husband to just stay alive and live through tremendous, never ending pain for her.

People learn to live with death. They may never get over it: they learn, in time, to cope. In time. It eases. It doesn't get forgotten about, it eases and we learn how to cope.

Given that this man had bouts of depression: it was naturally going to take far longer for him to learn how to cope: 18months may seem a long time: it's not. Many still are in the throes of trying to accept the loss of the person. It's not about getting over it: you never do - it's about learning how to cope - and how to move forward.

Death is a horrible part of life - but it IS part of life and life has to go on. If everyone who lost someone killed themselves - there wouldn't be many people kicking about - and I'm not being flippant -I'm being serious.

Coping does not come easy, learning how to deal with the pain doesn't come easy. it can take years and years to get to that point - and I do feel this man didn't give himself enough time (through the scant info that we are privy to).

We don't know if he would have felt as wretched as he did - in 5 years, 8 years down the line - and neither did he. He may have felt exactly the same: or the time passing, may have helped him learn how to cope. Time is a great healer: it might not close the wounds entirely, but it certainly allows the gaping hole to shrink - enough to cope with.

[joeysteele]

Wow, another sweeping generalisation presented as a fact with no mitigating reasons or circumstances. For starters most people not agreeing with your black and white opinion are not condoning suicide. They are saying they can understand why some can see it as the only way out of their misery and suffering. Some commit suicide on an impulse, others plan it meticulously, either way the balance of their minds are massively disturbed. Are all mentally ill people, therefore, also selfish because they have no awareness of how their actions impact on those around them?

As for this poor guy's family and friends, if they could see and understand the depths of his despair and depression , were they not being selfish and uncaring by not getting him the help he so obviously needed? Everyone copes with stress very differently, and perhaps his wife was emotionally stronger and able to deal with it better, who knows. That doesn't make this poor man selfish at all - he was just incapable of coping with his pain. If we are going to talk about bullying, how about the attitudes on this thread against a guy who was driven by despair to kill himself? He is now being labelled as selfish and inconsiderate by people who have not a single clue about what sort of pain and distress HE went through before arriving at the awful decision to kill himself.

There is no universal panacea for all ills. We each of us have to find our own way to deal with grief and loss. Some cope way better than others. Sometimes it is a lifetime struggle - not everyone is able to deal with that. Who am I to judge them?

Absolutely brilliant post Angus. I understand people saying that it would on the surface seem a selfish act leaving others with the living pain of the ordeal, however we ar unable to get into the person taking their own life's heads at the time, it must become like an obsession and take over all their thinking and particulary rational thinking.

I would hope personally that if anyone I knew,or even knew of, had thoughts of ending their life for whatever reasons that I amy be able to pick up on that or that they could consider me or someone else a last gasp saloon kind of person to flood out their desperation.
Sadly, that's not the case, they usually do it on impulse, or others seem to be fine the day or so before they actually head off and end their life.
Horrible event, their minds though must be massively tortured and it must finally get firmly implanted in their mind that it is the only way they can get away from everything.
A very sad story this is of this man and his son,I agree it's equally hard for those left behind but it cannot be seen just in black and white,there has to be, in my view, a massively grey area as to those commitiing suicide.

What I would hate most though was the thought of a friend or one of my family feeling they could commit suicide rather than take one last attempt at life by talking to someone,I would hope that in my dealings with all people I know, that I would hopefuly be able to pick up on that but moreso they would feel able to at least hint at what they may be thinking or planning.I would want to do anything I could to help them though that irrational time and get their stable thinking pattern back.

[Glenn.]

I just can't fathom why people on here are so ignorant to the fact that the act of suicide is selfish.

Ok the man was grieving but so was his wife and she is even more now because of this mans decision to end it. It's her that has to deal with it. Her mind will be full of "what ifs" and "If I had onlys"

Using the stance of "guilting" someone to live is a ridiculus way to see it. You can try and wrap it up anyway you like.

This man might not have selfish himself but the point remains. The act of suicide is selfish. To cause more pain for someone is IMO inexcusable.

[Pyramid*]

Absolutely brilliant post Angus. I understand people saying that it would on the surface seem a selfish act leaving others with the living pain of the ordeal, however we ar unable to get into the person taking their own life's heads at the time, it must become like an obsession and take over all their thinking and particulary rational thinking.

I would hope personally that if anyone I knew,or even knew of, had thoughts of ending their life for whatever reasons that I amy be able to pick up on that or that they could consider me or someone else a last gasp saloon kind of person to flood out their desperation.
Sadly, that's not the case, they usually do it on impulse, or others seem to be fine the day or so before they actually head off and end their life.
Horrible event, their minds though must be massively tortured and it must finally get firmly implanted in their mind that it is the only way they can get away from everything.
A very sad story this is of this man and his son,I agree it's equally hard for those left behind but it cannot be seen just in black and white,there has to be, in my view, a massively grey area as to those commitiing suicide.

What I would hate most though was the thought of a friend or one of my family feeling they could commit suicide rather than take one last attempt at life by talking to someone,I would hope that in my dealings with all people I know, that I would hopefuly be able to pick up on that but moreso they would feel able to at least hint at what they may be thinking or planning.I would want to do anything I could to help them though that irrational time and get their stable thinking pattern back.



It isn't quite that straightforward or as simple as that. Honestly, it's not. It would be wonderful if it was: but that's the hardest part of the whole sorry situation surrounding suicides Joey.

[Pyramid*]

I just can't fathom why people on here are so ignorant to the fact that the act of suicide is selfish.

Ok the man was grieving but so was his wife and she is even more now because of this mans decision to end it. It's her that has to deal with it. Her mind will be full of "what ifs" and "If I had onlys"

Using the stance of "guilting" someone to live is a ridiculus way to see it. You can try and wrap it up anyway you like.

This man might not have selfish himself but the point remains. The act of suicide is selfish. To cause more pain for someone is IMO inexcusable.

I'm not so sure ignorant is quite the best way of describing it. Unwilling to accept that there is a selfish element - regardless.

I do agree with the sentiment that deliberately chosing an action that you know will cause tremedous pain to an innocent party - moreso when you yourself are aware of how that pain feels, yet would still inflict that on a loved one - is the part that I personally cannot get my head around.

[CharlieO]

People learn to live with death. They may never get over it: they learn, in time, to cope. In time. It eases. It doesn't get forgotten about, it eases and we learn how to cope.

Given that this man had bouts of depression: it was naturally going to take far longer for him to learn how to cope: 18months may seem a long time: it's not. Many still are in the throes of trying to accept the loss of the person. It's not about getting over it: you never do - it's about learning how to cope - and how to move forward.

Death is a horrible part of life - but it IS part of life and life has to go on. If everyone who lost someone killed themselves - there wouldn't be many people kicking about - and I'm not being flippant -I'm being serious.

Coping does not come easy, learning how to deal with the pain doesn't come easy. it can take years and years to get to that point - and I do feel this man didn't give himself enough time (through the scant info that we are privy to).

We don't know if he would have felt as wretched as he did - in 5 years, 8 years down the line - and neither did he. He may have felt exactly the same: or the time passing, may have helped him learn how to cope. Time is a great healer: it might not close the wounds entirely, but it certainly allows the gaping hole to shrink - enough to cope with.

Yes time is incredible, however we do not know that it was the only thing putting him in a dark place. He could have been suffering due to other things for over 10 years and he could no longer take the pain. We do not know so I do not see how it is fair deeming him selfish. Some people just don't have the will to allow time to help, they cannot wait for a conclusion which may never arise.
I do not believe he was selfish.

[CharlieO]

I just can't fathom why people on here are so ignorant to the fact that the act of suicide is selfish.

Ok the man was grieving but so was his wife and she is even more now because of this mans decision to end it. It's her that has to deal with it. Her mind will be full of "what ifs" and "If I had onlys"

Using the stance of "guilting" someone to live is a ridiculus way to see it. You can try and wrap it up anyway you like.

This man might not have selfish himself but the point remains. The act of suicide is selfish. To cause more pain for someone is IMO inexcusable.

How so? If someone stays alive and lives through torture through their own mind just because another person may also get hurt it is basically being guilted into torturing yourself.

I agree the act of suicide can have a selfish element but usually not. It is self-preservation and in my opinion if it is properly thought through relatives should realise it can be the best option for the person.

[Pyramid*]

Yes time is incredible, however we do not know that it was the only thing putting him in a dark place. He could have been suffering due to other things for over 10 years and he could no longer take the pain. We do not know so I do not see how it is fair deeming him selfish. Some people just don't have the will to allow time to help, they cannot wait for a conclusion which may never arise.
I do not believe he was selfish.

We do not need to know x/y/z.

It makes no difference to the resultant effect his decision has on those he chose to leave behind, to deal with more grief and despair.

It does seem to 'come over' as most people on here feeling far more sorry for this man - than the woman who has been left to pick up the pieces. Not saying that IS the case: just that it seems there are people far more willing to offer empathy to him - than to his wife. His worries, pains, grief are done and dusted - he made sure of that.

There are more victims of suicide than the ones who chose to end it..... and I have to say, I'm staggered by some of the responses that appear to be intimating: tough luck - he was the one suffering not her - she clearly could cope better. Perhaps she isn't brave enough to end her life - has anyone actually given that any thought?

I said earlier that I don't believe it's an easy thing to do: but the flip side is: she may feel like doing the same thing: but simply not be able to see it through - can you even BEGIN to imagine how it must feel having to live a life like that - having lost both your son and your husband?

I'd say that was far worse a place to be in. Far too many assumptions going on - people commenting that the wife must have far more will to continue, must have stronger character etc. She might well want to do the same thing as her son and husband, but not have the strength to carry it out.

[Pyramid*]

How so? If someone stays alive and lives through torture through their own mind just because another person may also get hurt it is basically being guilted into torturing yourself.

I agree the act of suicide can have a selfish element but usually not. It is self-preservation and in my opinion if it is properly thought through relatives should realise it can be the best option for the person.

Suicide is completely the opposite of self preservation.


Many people who opt for suicide don't actually want to die - they simply want the hurt / pain (or whatever the root cause is) to stop - and they cannot see any other way of stopping the pain/ hurt etc. They want to be rid of the cause of their angst. It's not they don't want to live: they don't want to live with the pain. Many learn how to do that in time. Suicide removes that ability to learn, to adjust, to cope.

[joeysteele]

It isn't quite that straightforward or as simple as that. Honestly, it's not. It would be wonderful if it was: but that's the hardest part of the whole sorry situation surrounding suicides Joey.

I know it's not, you make extremely good and valid points as well Pyramid* as you always do.

I talked 2 years ago though to someone who had tried to take their own life,it was part of a human growth and development session I was taking part in, the answers they gave were that they just weren't thinking at all, they just wanted to be away from all the massive negatives that seemed to be around them, they saw no way forward at all so wanted out.
Someone they knew picked up on the vibes they were giving off and tried to keep a check on them,they alerted others and the person was found after taking an overdose.
Even then, once the person was conscious again they weren't pleased at all that they had been saved.
However when we were talking to the person, which was a year on from the attempt,they were really pleased they had been saved as with help their life was much better. Which is why I said I hoped I would be able to pick up the negative vibes of someone in that distress and also to let it be known, there are others there to reach out to,it may not be an answer,it may not help but I just wish,(as many people when they get these ideas ring something like a helpline),that they would also maybe look closer to home and open the door to let others in.

As you rightly say it's not as simple as that though, that's also why I said it cannot just really be a black and white conclusion to suicides,there are massive grey areas.

I don't know about sucide being selfish,couragious or cowardly but I doubt,(can never say 100%),that I would ever be able to be brave enough or able to carry it out myself.

[Pyramid*]

I know it's not, you make extremely good and valid points as well Pyramid* as you always do.

I talked 2 years ago though to someone who had tried to take their own life,it was part of a human growth and development session I was taking part in, the answers they gave were that they just weren't thinking at all, they just wanted to be away from all the massive negatives that seemed to be around them, they saw no way forward at all so wanted out.
Someone they knew picked up on the vibes they were giving off and tried to keep a check on them,they alerted others and the person was found after taking an overdose.

Even then, once the person was conscious again they weren't pleased at all that they had been saved.

However when we were talking to the person, which was a year on from the attempt,they were really pleased they had been saved as with help their life was much better.

Which is why I said I hoped I would be able to pick up the negative vibes of someone in that distress and also to let it be known, there are others there to reach out to,it may not be an answer,it may not help but I just wish,(as many people when they get these ideas ring something like a helpline),that they would also maybe look closer to home and open the door to let others in.

As you rightly say it's not as simple as that though, that's also why I said it cannot just really be a black and white conclusion to suicides,there are massive grey areas.

I don't know about sucide being selfish,couragious or cowardly but I doubt,(can never say 100%),that I would ever be able to be brave enough or able to carry it out myself.

BIB - that's the point you've picked up on that I made earlier - a year down the line was enough time to make a difference to that particular person - with others it can take far far longer: but they can get there in the end and their perspective changes. Not all do - that's always going to be a factor: but it remains the case that many who survived a suicide attempt: DO recover after time to realise that the obstacles (whatever they may have been) are not always as unsurrmountable as they once thought. That doesn't happen suddenly: it takes time, and in some cases: a long time, but they do get there.

[CharlieO]

Suicide is completely the opposite of self preservation.


Many people who opt for suicide don't actually want to die - they simply want the hurt / pain (or whatever the root cause is) to stop - and they cannot see any other way of stopping the pain/ hurt etc. They want to be rid of the cause of their angst. It's not they don't want to live: they don't want to live with the pain. Many learn how to do that in time. Suicide removes that ability to learn, to adjust, to cope.

Yes because sometimes the pain is not worth the effort. It is a way out and some people desire nothingness.

[CharlieO]

However my opinions still completely stand. I give up though, I cannot agree with the majority of your guys points so I just give up.

I do not believe it is a selfish act. I think in cases it can be justified and is not always wrong.

[joeysteele]

BIB - that's the point you've picked up on that I made earlier - a year down the line was enough time to make a difference to that particular person - with others it can take far far longer: but they can get there in the end and their perspective changes. Not all do - that's always going to be a factor: but it remains the case that many who survived a suicide attempt: DO recover after time to realise that the obstacles (whatever they may have been) are not always as unsurrmountable as they once thought. That doesn't happen suddenly: it takes time, and in some cases: a long time, but they do get there.

Absolutely right. The person admitted that at the time the attempt was made, they saw only darkness,a mass of confusion as to all things in their life, people, pressures and all events,so the only thing they focussed on was ending everything.

As time went on and with strong support, a year on and it was like waking up to a much fresher and brighter day.

[Pyramid*]

Yes because sometimes the pain is not worth the effort. It is a way out and some people desire nothingness.

If they don't put the effort in: how will they ever know whether it was worth it or not?

It's a way out for sure, and one borne not without selfishness. That's very much my opinion.

[Angus]

Well I'm baffled as to why this guy, who was in the throes of massive depression brought on by unbearable grief and guilt over the death of his beloved child, is apparently expected to behave entirely rationally and objectively by considering the feelings of others in preference to his own. Conversely, it is abundantly clear to me that these "others" in his life had failed him by not recognising that his mental state was serious enough to warrant getting him the help he so obviously and desperately needed. Perhaps they were "selfishly" too engrossed in their own emotional turmoil to pay him any heed?

[Benjamin]

Just to point out, this man has also had to deal with a lot of death in his life, not just his sons. Maybe he just reached a point of no return. Some of you can call it selfish all you want, but if you fall too far into depression you lose all perspective of life, others and yourself. Sometimes you get the delusion in your head that the best way to fix it all and make things better is to stop being a burden upon others and to end your life. So I would personally say 'selfish' is the wrong word to use.

[Jake.]

Just to point out, this man has also had to deal with a lot of death in his life, not just his sons. Maybe he just reached a point of no return. Some of you can call it selfish all you want, but if you fall too far into depression you lose all perspective of life, others and yourself. Sometimes you get the delusion in your head that the best way to fix it all and make things better is to stop being a burden upon others and to end your life. So I would personally say 'selfish' is the wrong word to use.

:love:

[Niamh.]

Just to point out, this man has also had to deal with a lot of death in his life, not just his sons. Maybe he just reached a point of no return. Some of you can call it selfish all you want, but if you fall too far into depression you lose all perspective of life, others and yourself. Sometimes you get the delusion in your head that the best way to fix it all and make things better is to stop being a burden upon others and to end your life. So I would personally say 'selfish' is the wrong word to use.

So true Ben. Depression is a horrible thing, it's like a disease that eats you up, simply calling someone selfish for their actions in cases like this is too simplistic imo.

[Z]

I'm with Pyramid* and Glenn on this one. I think the language we are all using is probably too harsh on both sides of the argument. I think we can all accept that this man is not a selfish man by nature, he clearly loved his son and his suicide pushed him over the edge. That is a huge tragedy and we mustn't lose sight of that. Rest in peace and I hope you've found your happiness.

But I think what the three of us are trying to argue, is that, especially in this case, suicide is an extremely devastating option. The father knows that from first hand experience because his son's suicide drove him to kill himself. But now, the wife, the mother of that child and the wife to that man, has had to deal with it twice in less than two years. What do you think that's going to do to her? The man she loved to bring a much loved child into the world is gone, and so is that child. And that's why I see it as being a selfish act. But, as I said, selfish isn't the right word, because it's so strong and makes the man seem like a bad person. I don't believe he is. I don't think inconsiderate is the right word either, because that's really flippant and nowhere near strong enough. But somewhere in between those two words, there's something that means the same thing that describes this situation and I hope we can all sort of get the gist of that.

Do people understand that point of view, then? That using the word selfish isn't a character description of this man, it's the nearest word to use to be able to describe the consequences of his final action. He knows how it felt to deal with a suicide of a loved one, and has now doubled that pain for his wife.

[Shaun]

Well said Angus and Ben. I can understand why someone would say his actions were 'selfish' (personally because I believe humans are inherently selfish - I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing, and certainly isn't something that can be helped) but it just comes with so many cruel connotations that it beggars belief that anyone would voice it. And I just think it's saddening to sully someone's name who's been through so much already.

[Ninastar]

I don't think I've posted in here yet, but it's so sad to see people telling others that they their opinion is wrong. I don't think there is a right or wrong opinion with this kind of situation. It's so tricky and I don't think you can have a proper say until it has affected you personally. There's only so much humans can take imo, and I think that if you do commit suicide you aren't in your right state of mind.

Such a sad thing to hear. My heart goes out to the family.

[Shaun]

I think the problems that arose yesterday and the frustrations were because pretty much all parties claim to have been affected by suicide or depression personally, though :/

[Glenn.]

Well said Angus and Ben. I can understand why someone would say his actions were 'selfish' (personally because I believe humans are inherently selfish - I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing, and certainly isn't something that can be helped) but it just comes with so many cruel connotations that it beggars belief that anyone would voice it. And I just think it's saddening to sully someone's name who's been through so much already.

But then I don't agree with keeping quiet because it doesn't conform to politeness. Suicide is a tragic thing to experience for both the person committing the act and those left behind.

I don't think it's something that has to be hushed and not discussed when it affects so many people just because it's impolite.

[Benjamin]

Do people understand that point of view, then? That using the word selfish isn't a character description of this man, it's the nearest word to use to be able to describe the consequences of his final action. He knows how it felt to deal with a suicide of a loved one, and has now doubled that pain for his wife.

Selfish means to carry out actions for the good of ones self without thinking or caring about the consequences of others. So it is still the wrong word to use. How do we know that he hadn't put a lot of thought into his decision (I'm guessing he must have) and considered that he may have been a burden to his wife and others around him by being so depressed, which in turn could have left him feeling more depressed and taking his life would cease the burden he thought he may have been on people.

[Ninastar]

I think the problems that arose yesterday and the frustrations were because pretty much all parties claim to have been affected by suicide or depression personally, though :/

Yeah I agree. I could see good points and bad points in everyone's opinions though. And like I said, I think everyone reacts to it differently so you can't have a right or wrong.

[Z]

Selfish means to carry out actions for the good of ones self without thinking or caring about the consequences of others. So it is still the wrong word to use. How do we know that he hadn't put a lot of thought into his decision (I'm guessing he must have) and considered that he may have been a burden to his wife and others around him by being so depressed, which in turn could have left him feeling more depressed and taking his life would cease the burden he thought he may have been on people.

Did you even read my post? I said that selfish isn't the right word.

[Benjamin]

Did you even read my post? I said that selfish isn't the right word.

It was more for the benefit of those using the word selfish. I was just expanding what you had written. :tongue:

[Ammi]

I still don't like the word 'selfish' in this case..self preservation perhaps, I'm not sure. A loving father has a 'function' a 'purpose and role' to protect his children and his wife....some would say they would die for them..literally. This guy must have felt such a deep disappointment and dispair that he was unable to protect his son from the bullies..he was unable to prevent him from ending his life...perhaps, in his own feelings of failure he felt he was unable to help his wife in any way..maybe he just felt he made things worse.

I still believe this is not black and white and labels should not be attatched..if it where, then I would have to believe that the boy was selfish too...and I can't...he probably just couldn't find any other way out of his suffering and misery...grief and depression are all consuming for some

[Pyramid*]

Well I'm baffled as to why this guy, who was in the throes of massive depression brought on by unbearable grief and guilt over the death of his beloved child, is apparently expected to behave entirely rationally and objectively by considering the feelings of others in preference to his own. Conversely, it is abundantly clear to me that these "others" in his life had failed him by not recognising that his mental state was serious enough to warrant getting him the help he so obviously and desperately needed. Perhaps they were "selfishly" too engrossed in their own emotional turmoil to pay him any heed?

Yes, let's blame everyone else.

Just to point out, this man has also had to deal with a lot of death in his life, not just his sons. Maybe he just reached a point of no return. Some of you can call it selfish all you want, but if you fall too far into depression you lose all perspective of life, others and yourself. Sometimes you get the delusion in your head that the best way to fix it all and make things better is to stop being a burden upon others and to end your life. So I would personally say 'selfish' is the wrong word to use.

I will use the word selfish if I want, because that's my view: that the ACT, his final decision was selfish imo. So I would personally say 'selfish' is the correct word to use to describe his final actions.

[Benjamin]

Yes, let's blame everyone else.



I will use the word selfish if I want, because that's my view: that the ACT, his final decision was selfish imo. So I would personally say 'selfish' is the correct word to use to describe his final actions.

Do that all you want, but selfish is not the correct word to use still.

[Pyramid*]

Well said Angus and Ben. I can understand why someone would say his actions were 'selfish' (personally because I believe humans are inherently selfish - I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing, and certainly isn't something that can be helped) but it just comes with so many cruel connotations that it beggars belief that anyone would voice it. And I just think it's saddening to sully someone's name who's been through so much already.


Why does it beggar belief that anyone woudl voice it.

I'm an adult Shaun, like you and others on here discussing this. I dont' believe in hiding things under the carpet.

As I said earlier: people on here seem to be showing far more understanding and empathy toward the man who is dead - than the woman who is left having to try to deal with this.

No one's name is being sullied - some us are saying that it was a selfish act. We're hardly tarnishing the man, given that it is a personal opinoin on the act of suicide.

[Pyramid*]

I think the problems that arose yesterday and the frustrations were because pretty much all parties claim to have been affected by suicide or depression personally, though :/

I'll say one thing here. You are being completely and utterly out of order with that comment. How dare you infer that people are being untruthful about their own personal situations.

[Pyramid*]

Do that all you want, but selfish is not the correct word to use still.

In my view it is. You don't make the rules up on life UKTurtle. You aren't in the position to tell others what they wish to feel and whether they are wrong to feel such a way.

[fruit_cake]

I wouldn't like to judge his situation but his wife is left to carry everything on her own and that's not right no matter how tough it is/was for him. This issue hasn't really been addressed by those defending his suicide, imo.

Maybe it's a minor point, but he's not really done his anti-bullying campaign any favours either. To me hes sending out a message that bullies win :conf2:

[Benjamin]

In my view it is. You don't make the rules up on life UKTurtle. You aren't in the position to tell others what they wish to feel and whether they are wrong to feel such a way.

No, but I also understand the meaning of simple words Pyramid. The meaning of selfish does not fit here. I have already provided the meaning of selfish, and trust me, you do think about others before you do it and what you are doing to them whilst you are alive. You may not consider the long-term affect on them and you may see that you are relieving them of a burden by having to deal with you, hence you are considering others. In such a state of depression your thought process is not clear or concise.

[Pyramid*]

I wouldn't like to judge his situation but his wife is left to carry everything on her own and that's not right no matter how tough it is/was for him. This issue hasn't really been addressed by those defending his suicide, imo.

Maybe it's a minor point, but he's not really done his anti-bullying campaign any favours either. To me hes sending out a message that bullies win :conf2:

You first part Fruitcake: believe me, I've tried to get others to focus on the wife and to not disassociate the impact on her: but seems that's not up for real consideration, and I agree with you - it doesnt' seem to focus much in taking into account the bigger picture. There is far more to suicide that just the person who chose that way out.

There is the view that the horrible thing is, it does seem the bullies won - hope they are all very happy with themselves.

[Pyramid*]

No, but I also understand the meaning of simple words Pyramid. The meaning of selfish does not fit here. I have already provided the meaning of selfish, and trust me, you do think about others before you do it and what you are doing to them whilst you are alive. You may not consider the long-term effect on them and you may see that you are relieving them of a burden by having to deal with you, hence you are considering others. In such a state of depression your thought process is not clear or concise.

I understand the meaning quite clearly of simple words, and I dont' need to be patronised by you either. I'll quote your own words:

Selfish means to carry out actions for the good of ones self without thinking or caring about the consequences of others.


You have no idea what went through the man's mind - whether he considered he may have been a burden to his wife or not: so let's stop pretending you know more about it than you do. NONE of us, including you, will ever know the answer to that.

It is my view that those who opt for suicide do not care about the consequences or the aftermath. That is my opinion and to be pefectly honest with you, given your mod status: I'm astounded that you are taking such a stance that I cannot have my own view without you telling me my view is wrong. Whatever happened to accepting and respecting someone else's opinions.

I'm very well aware of how depression affect, that's something else you don't have to break down to explain to me.

You seem to have blinkers on in that you feel that your view and your terminology used is only the correct one, any other is incorrect. On that, you are very wrong. We simply disagree on opposite views that we have.

[fruit_cake]

You first part Fruitcake: believe me, I've tried to get others to focus on the wife and to not disassociate the impact on her: but seems that's not up for real consideration, and I agree with you - it doesnt' seem to focus much in taking into account the bigger picture. There is far more to suicide that just the person who chose that way out.

There is the view that the horrible thing is, it does seem the bullies won - hope they are all very happy with themselves.

I can completely see what you're saying Pyramid. It seems to me a lot are so lost in sympathy for the father that they can't see the people who are still left, still alone and still in need of help and sympathy.

On top of what she has already suffered, losing a child and now a husband, she presumably now has to arrange a funeral, inform the families and it wouldn't be unusual that she were put under scrutiny and questioned by anxious relatives and friend about his decision to take his own life.

What's more, as you quite rightly say, the bullies are probably quite happy with themselves now. She has to face them alone, with no support, knowing that they have destroyed her life and her family.

I do have sympathy for the father, but I don't agree with his decision to take his own life. I think maybe I'd describe it as a 'self-centred' rather than a 'selfish' act, as selfish implies to me that he has gone through some sort of conscious thought process when deciding to commit suicide.

[Benjamin]

I understand the meaning quite clearly. I'll quote your own words:


You have no idea what went through the man's mind - whether he considered he may have been a burden to his wife or not: so let's stop pretending you know more about it than you do. NONE of us, including you, will ever know the answer to that.

It is my view that those who opt for suicide do not care about the consequences or the aftermath. That is my opinion and to be pefectly honest with you, given your mod status: I'm astounded that you are taking such a stance that I cannot have my own view without you telling me my view is wrong. Whatever happened to accepting and respecting someone else's opinions.

I'm very well aware of how depression affect, that's something else you don't have to break down to explain to me.

You seem to have blinkers on in that you feel that your view and your terminology used is only the correct one, any other is incorrect. On that, you are very wrong. We simply disagree on opposite views that we have.

My mod status has nothing to do with having a debate so stop trying to bring that into this.

I have no blinkers on at all. I do feel for the wife, as stated in my very first post in the thread, but to call this man's actions selfish is wrong. Like I have said, selfish means you do not think about others at all, only about yourself.

And when it comes to respecting people's opinions you are a fine one to comment on that. But that is for another time. But yes, I do believe that you and others who use the word 'selfish' in this context are wrong. That is my opinion. If you do not like it, tough. It isn't me being rude, it isn't me abusing my mod powers, it is my opinion, just like you have your set opinion that using that word is right.

It's not often I will take such a firm stance with an opinion, but on this one I do.

[Ammi]

In my personal opinion, suicide is a desperate act by someone who is in excrutiating pain and the human response to pain is to want it to stop.
In the literal sense, that can be described as selfish..as the entire focus is on one's self. In the same way that there needs to be more help and awareness about bullying, I think there should also be more support for sufferers of depression...I believe it was this father's third suicide attempt, he had undergone psychiatric treatment, had spearheaded an anti bullying campaign...he had obviously made attempts to stop the pain. I can only assume that he felt unsuccessful in this.

[Pyramid*]

My mod status has nothing to do with having a debate so stop trying to bring that into this.

I have no blinkers on at all. I do feel for the wife, as stated in my very first post in the thread, but to call this man's actions selfish is wrong. Like I have said, selfish means you do not think about others at all, only about yourself.

And when it comes to respecting people's opinions you are a fine one to comment on that. But that is for another time. But yes, I do believe that you and others who use the word 'selfish' in this context are wrong. That is my opinion. If you do not like it, tough. It isn't me being rude, it isn't me abusing my mod powers, it is my opinion, just like you have your set opinion that using that word is right.

It's not often I will take such a firm stance with an opinion, but on this one I do.

I'm most certainly being far more respectful towards others on this thread are being: therefore your comment to me personally if not only unecessary, it's almost baiting - it has absolutely not one thing to do with this debate. Not a thing.

Regardless: you are a moderator, that is factual and in posting, for you to be taking the stance of telling others that the view they personally hold is wrong - is not upholding the rules that we are all asked to follow - be respectful of others opinions, argue them but accept them. You might not agree, but that does not make you right, and them wrong.

One persons opinion doesn't make another persons opinion wrong: which is what you have stated to me several times. Add to that, the way in which you have attempted to belittle another fm, by caustically telling them that you 'understand the meaning of simple words'. There is no need for that at all.

Hardly the way forward for good and healthy debate.

[Benjamin]

I'm most certainly being far more respectful towards others on this thread are being: therefore your comment to me personally if not only unecessary, it's almost baiting - it has absolutely not one thing to do with this debate. Not a thing.

Regardless: you are a moderator, that is factual and in posting, for you to be taking the stance of telling others that the view they personally hold is wrong - is not upholding the rules that we are all asked to follow - be respectful of others opinions, argue them but accept them. You might not agree, but that does not make you right, and them wrong.

One persons opinion doesn't make another persons opinion wrong: which is what you have stated to me several times. Add to that, the way in which you have attempted to belittle another fm, by caustically telling them that you 'understand the meaning of simple words'. There is no need for that at all.

Hardly the way forward for good and healthy debate.


Like I said I believe you and others who use the word selfish are wrong. But bringing in my mod status has nothing to do with this, it just looks like a cheap shot to try and back up your opinions. And belittling FM's constantly? No, once AND ONLY ONCE did I say that I understand the meaning of simple words and that was in response to you saying that I don't make up the rules of life. You are right I don't, but the meaning of words I do understand and selfish does not fit this man's actions.

And in respecting people's opinions, I am. Not once have I insulted anyone for the opinion they hold, nor have I tried to bring in irrelevant points to try and 'outdo' them. I feel they are wrong and I have stated my opinion on a sensitive subject, if you do not like that then I'm afraid that is tough.

I am not arguing with you on this any more as I have nothing else to say. But feel free to respond back like you always do.

[Glenn.]

But couldn't the word selfish be used on both sides of the argument? Maybe he did think he was a burden and the release for the him and his family was suicide. But on the flip side he wasn't thinking about the hurt he would cause to his wife as Pyramid has pointed already struggled to adjust to the fact her son killed herself, to now have to go through that again and even more so, on her own?

I don't think it's fair to say someone's opinion is wrong just because you don't agree with it Ben.

[Benjamin]

But couldn't the word selfish be used on both sides of the argument? Maybe he did think he was a burden and the release for the him and his family was suicide. But on the flip side he wasn't thinking about the hurt he would cause to his wife as Pyramid has pointed already struggled to adjust to the fact her son killed herself, to now have to go through that again and even more so, on her own?

I don't think it's fair to say someone's opinion is wrong just because you don't agree with it Ben.

My opinion is that those who use that word are wrong. It's no less fair than people calling this man selfish. I respect people's opinions if they choose to use that word, but to me it is wrong.

[Pyramid*]

Like I said I believe you and others who use the word selfish are wrong. But bringing in my mod status has nothing to do with this, it just looks like a cheap shot to try and back up your opinions. And belittling FM's constantly? No, once AND ONLY ONCE did I say that I understand the meaning of simple words and that was in response to you saying that I don't make up the rules of life. You are right I don't, but the meaning of words I do understand and selfish does not fit this man's actions.

And in respecting people's opinions, I am. Not once have I insulted anyone for the opinion they hold, nor have I tried to bring in irrelevant points to try and 'outdo' them. I feel they are wrong and I have stated my opinion on a sensitive subject, if you do not like that then I'm afraid that is tough.

I am not arguing with you on this any more as I have nothing else to say. But feel free to respond back like you always do.

I didn't say you were belittling FMs constantly, I have no idea why you are makign an issue out of that with capital letters. (Actually I do, you didn't read correctly what I wrote). . Neither did I infer you have insulted anyone for their opinion. I respectfully suggest you re-read what I actually wrote and not what you think I wrote, or what you believe you read in the words I used.

You are wrong to assume your opinion is the correct one. Yo may believe it is:- which is understandable since it is subjective but that is not to say that yours is the only view to be had.

I will respond as I see fit - it is a public thread for all to participate in and I shall continue to do so, so I'm pretty sure I don't need to be told I'm free to respond back. That would be my choice to do so.

[Glenn.]

Ben. Surely you can understand the act of suicide is wrong?

[Benjamin]

Ben. Surely you can understand the act of suicide is wrong?

I never said suicide was right. I just said it wasn't selfish. There is a huge difference.

[Angus]

I don't think I have rubbished anyone's opinion - though I have commented on the one-sidedness of accusing this poor man of being "selfish". I think any judgment of his actions should be balanced against the recognition that the state of his mind at the time he ended his life was such that he was incapable of making any rational decision, being so overwhelmed with grief and pain, never mind be able to foresee the repercussions of his actions on others. To use the word "selfish" to describe his suicide is to presuppose that he purposefully and deliberately chose a course of action having full possession of all his faculties when in fact he did not.

[Kazanne]

No one will be in full agreement on this thread,I just see that this man loved his son so much he could not live without him,It DOES happen,I don't think he was selfish ,he was just so overcome with grief,his wife may even take some comfort that he is with his son.

[Pyramid*]

I don't think I have rubbished anyone's opinion - though I have commented on the one-sidedness of accusing this poor man of being "selfish". I think any judgment of his actions should be balanced against the recognition that the state of his mind at the time he ended his life was such that he was incapable of making any rational decision, being so overwhelmed with grief and pain, never mind be able to foresee the repercussions of his actions on others. To use the word "selfish" to describe his suicide is to presuppose that he purposefully and deliberately chose a course of action having full possession of all his faculties when in fact he did not.

As much as it is to presuppose that he didn't. Not one of us can ever know precisely what he was able to comprehend or not. It appear it is fine for a one sided argument, as long as it is in favour of assuming he was completely without any understanding of the impact of him taking his own life would subsequently result in for his wife.

Much one way assumptions going on here without considering both sides of the coin.

[Glenn.]

It takes a lot to kill yourself.

The basic reaction of the human body when fatally under attack is to stay alive. Yeah he was grieving but there must of been a tiny bit of him that resisted no matter how depressed he was. That would of been his bodies natural reaction to the situation. It's a primitive instinct to stay alive.

The point of the matter is no matter how you wrap it up to be moral and right is he had no thought for his wife when he hung himself. Simple as that. He's dead he had no more pain and suffering, something his wife has to live with for the rest of her life. Wondering every day if she could of done something different. IMO no one has that right to make someone feel like that. And the mere fact that it didn't stop the suicide shows there was only thought for himself in that moment.

[Shaun]

I think a more appropriate word could be 'desperate'. That suggests a kind of...finality about the decision, and supercedes any defamation about his conscience.

This is all quite silly now though. I do regret posting the thread in the first place :laugh:

[Benjamin]

An interesting point, that I forgot to mention earlier, is that if you speak to a lot of the loved ones, who have been left behind, they do not consider the act to be done for selfish purposes.

[Kazanne]

I think a more appropriate word could be 'desperate'. That suggests a kind of...finality about the decision, and supercedes any defamation about his conscience.

This is all quite silly now though. I do regret posting the thread in the first place :laugh:

Don't regret posting the thread Shaun,it has been a really good debate:xyxwave:

[Ammi]

No one will be in full agreement on this thread,I just see that this man loved his son so much he could not live without him,It DOES happen,I don't think he was selfish ,he was just so overcome with grief,his wife may even take some comfort that he is with his son.

I agree Kazanne...suicide/abortion/death penalty...any life/death subject cannot NOT be emotive and the opinions will be diverse and passionate

[Benjamin]

I concur. It's been interesting to see opinions on such a sensitive and misunderstood subject.

[Pyramid*]

I think a more appropriate word could be 'desperate'. That suggests a kind of...finality about the decision, and supercedes any defamation about his conscience.

This is all quite silly now though. I do regret posting the thread in the first place


It's been a fired up subject for sure, but that was always going to be the case, overall though, it's interesting to see how different people view the same situation.



is that if you speak to a lot of the loved ones, who have been left behind, they do not consider the act to be done for selfish purposes.


You are speaking to one of those loved ones who have been left behind, and this one does consider it a selfish act: an incredibly hard and difficult one to have to see through, but I still find it selfish. Most of my relatives at the time felt exactly the same btw.

[Glenn.]

I doubt it would go through your head if you were a loved one. You probably wouldn't see it as selfish at the time.

But over the years it would dawn on you.

My friend that killed herself for instance. I was incredibly sad when I found out. And I was sad for a long time, until it settled on me no matter how she was feeling, the was explicitly no reason for suicide and the fact she did and left her family to pick up the pieces was disgusting.

[Niamh.]

I doubt it would go through your head if you were a loved one. You probably wouldn't see it as selfish at the time.

But over the years it would dawn on you.

My friend that killed herself for instance. I was incredibly sad when I found out. And I was sad for a long time, until it settled on me no matter how she was feeling, the was explicitly no reason for suicide and the fact she did and left her family to pick up the pieces was disgusting.

Aw Glenn, please don't start calling people who commit suicide disgusting. selfish was bad enough.

[Benjamin]

I doubt it would go through your head if you were a loved one. You probably wouldn't see it as selfish at the time.

But over the years it would dawn on you.

My friend that killed herself for instance. I was incredibly sad when I found out. And I was sad for a long time, until it settled on me no matter how she was feeling, the was explicitly no reason for suicide and the fact she did and left her family to pick up the pieces was disgusting.

See again, I find that generalisation wrong. I think it is best I leave this thread for a while before I do get angry.

[Glenn.]

In this case it was disgusting. To tell your parents you were going to kill yourself because they refused to let you out clubbing on Christmas Eve then to do it? What would you call it?

[Z]

Aw Glenn, please don't start calling people who commit suicide disgusting. selfish was bad enough.

I don't think it's fair to say that to Glenn. It's how he personally feels. Not everyone has the same view on suicide; matters of life and death provoke the strongest responses from people and I think we should all accept that fact. I know for a fact that my parents see suicide as being a selfish act and I do too - just because it makes that person's suffering end doesn't mean the matter is over and done with. Every person that dies affects somebody else, whether it be family, friends, neighbours, employers... somebody cares.

[Angus]

It takes a lot to kill yourself. The basic reaction of the human body when fatally under attack is to stay alive. Yeah he was grieving but there must of been a tiny bit of him that resisted no matter how depressed he was. That would of been his bodies natural reaction to the situation. It's a primitive instinct to stay alive. The point of the matter is no matter how you wrap it up to be moral and right is he had no thought for his wife when he hung himself. Simple as that. He's dead he had no more pain and suffering, something his wife has to live with for the rest of her life. Wondering every day if she could of done something different. IMO no one has that right to make someone feel like that. And the mere fact that it didn't stop the suicide shows there was only thought for himself in that moment.


I certainly wouldn't consider suicide "moral" or "right". There seems to be no concession whatsoever in your stance to the notion that he was NOT in his right and sane mind when he did the deed. So you are judging him somewhat unfairly by standards we normally attribute to people in full possession of all their mental faculties. I find that hard to understand. To commit suicide is not a normal reaction to life's adversities, so one can only speculate about the state of his mind at that moment. I would wager he was mentally unbalanced, totally incapable of rationalising his behaviour, let alone control it. Why should he be labelled "selfish" for being in the grip of a mental aberration so totally outside his control?

[Glenn.]

Her own parents feel the same. They naturally blamed themselves for not letting her go out, but it sunk in to the fact they weren't to blame and I quote her mum directly, "I will never forgive her for doing this". I agree with them completely.

[Niamh.]

In this case it was disgusting. To tell your parents you were going to kill yourself because they refused to let you out clubbing on Christmas Eve then to do it? What would you call it?

Do you really think that was her only reason for taking her life though? I just find that so hard to believe that someone would deprive themselves of the only life they have just to hurt someone else.

[Glenn.]

Yes it was Niamh. Honestly, she had no worries in her life. She was embarrassed because her friends were going out and she wasn't allowed.

[Pyramid*]

See again, I find that generalisation wrong. I think it is best I leave this thread for a while before I do get angry.

I dont' see it as generalising. It is how Glenn feels.

[Niamh.]

Yes it was Niamh. Honestly, she had no worries in her life. She was embarrassed because her friends were going out and she wasn't allowed.

Ok, well I'll have to take your word for that. It just seems so crazy, I can't even get my head around it. I would say though, that most people kill themselves out of utter desperation and hopelessness.

[Glenn.]

Ok, well I'll have to take your word for that. It just seems so crazy, I can't even get my head around it. I would say though, that most people kill themselves out of utter desperation and hopelessness.

Honestly, the island was shocked to the core.

[Angus]

Yes it was Niamh. Honestly, she had no worries in her life. She was embarrassed because her friends were going out and she wasn't allowed.



That is something none of us can ever know for sure, not even her parents. Being grounded or whatever might just have been the straw that broke the camel's back. who knows? No matter how close we think we are with people we can't be sure that we know EVERYTHING about them.

However, my personal opinion is that it is more likely she didn't intend to irrevocably harm herself, it was more a cry for attention that went wrong.

[Niamh.]

Honestly, the island was shocked to the core.

Well, if that was genuinely the only reason she did it, then I could see why you would consider her to be selfish. With my friend, she suffered from depression, she was getting help but it obviously wasn't enough. She did want to and try to feel better. She left me a letter, and in it she said that she could never be the happy person she once was and I felt so bad for her, feeling like that, so hopeless and not seeing how she would ever get out of it.

[Ammi]

In this case it was disgusting. To tell your parents you were going to kill yourself because they refused to let you out clubbing on Christmas Eve then to do it? What would you call it?

This is a genuine question Glenn...do you think your opinion may be different if your friend hadn't done what she had...because imo her reasons, if as you say were simply that, are not typical or representative of other suicides..which come from pain and not anger

[Glenn.]

That is something none of us can ever know for sure, not even her parents. Being grounded or whatever might just have been the straw that broke the camel's back. who knows? No matter how close we think we are with people we can't be sure that we know EVERYTHING about them.

However, my personal opinion is that it is more likely she didn't intend to irrevocably harm herself, it was more a cry for attention that went wrong.

If she was so depressed someone would of noticed. She had a number of close friends. She had the perfect life. Depression really wasn't a factor in this.

[Glenn.]

This is a genuine question Glenn...do you think your opinion may be different if your friend hadn't done what she had...because imo her reasons, if as you say were simply that, are not typical or representative of other suicides..which come from pain and not anger

I would feel the same either way. Of course her suicide has some impact in my views but we've had a lot of suicides on the island and all have left families devastated.

So in answer to your question, no I wouldnt feel differently at all. I just don't think it's right.

[Angus]

If she was so depressed someone would of noticed. She had a number of close friends. She had the perfect life. Depression really wasn't a factor in this.


I was merely playing the devil's advocate since it is not unusual to hear famillies and friends express shock and surprise when a loved one commits suicide saying they had no idea why blah blah blah.....

Personally I think she was just intending to scare her family but it went horribly wrong. Sadly we will never know. As for her mother being angry with her - anger is a much easier emotion to deal with than grief.

[Jesus.]

No one will be in full agreement on this thread,I just see that this man loved his son so much he could not live without him,It DOES happen,I don't think he was selfish ,he was just so overcome with grief,his wife may even take some comfort that he is with his son.

Except he isn't really with his son. He may be decomposing next to his decomposing son, but they are not frolicking on clouds, skipping, and taking harp lessons together.

[Glenn.]

This is the news report (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1417369/Police-inquiry-into-hanged-girls-death.html) of the my friend suicide

[Angus]

This is the news report (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1417369/Police-inquiry-into-hanged-girls-death.html) of the my friend suicide


Having read that, I'm even more convinced that she didn't really intend to kill herself.

[Jake.]

Except he isn't really with his son. He may be decomposing next to his decomposing son, but they are not frolicking on clouds, skipping, and taking harp lessons together.

In your opinion...

[Jesus.]

In your opinion...

Well there is no evidence to suggest otherwise.

[Jake.]

Well there is no evidence to suggest otherwise.

And there is no evidence to suggest that heaven doesn't exist. Im not getting into this, we will ve hear all night and it is completely off topic.

[Jesus.]

And there is no evidence to suggest that heaven doesn't exist. Im not getting into this, we will ve hear all night and it is completely off topic.

There is no proof heaven doesn't exist because it's impossible to prove a negative. It's up to those that postulate a heaven to step up and prove there is substance to their beliefs.

There is no proof that I'm not playing with a pink unicorn this very minute.

[Niamh.]

There is no proof heaven doesn't exist because it's impossible to prove a negative. It's up to those that postulate a heaven to step up and prove there is substance to their beliefs.

There is no proof that I'm not playing with a pink unicorn this very minute.

Are you? :suspect:

[Jesus.]

Are you? :suspect:

I might be :dance:

http://www.doggiecakes.com/blog/uploaded_images/Avanti_Card_Halloween_Pug_in_Pink_Unicorn_Costume-777479.jpg

[Livia]

People with no faith can be so aggressive and dismissive towards those who do. Why can't people's beliefs be their own affair? People who believe in something don't have to prove a thing to those with no faith.

[Kazanne]

Except he isn't really with his son. He may be decomposing next to his decomposing son, but they are not frolicking on clouds, skipping, and taking harp lessons together.

No one knows that do they?and no one said they were 'frollicking on clouds with harps' did they?In his mind he would be with his son,NO ONE knows what is after death for certain.

[Jesus.]

People with no faith can be so aggressive and dismissive towards those who do. Why can't people's beliefs be their own affair? People who believe in something don't have to prove a thing to those with no faith.

Because in no other sphere of life, would people be able to make ridiculous claims, and go completely unchallenged. Asking someone to show their workings out is not aggressive.

If beliefs stay personal and inside that persons own home/head, then I have no problem with it, but nobody is being fair when we allow to nonsense to pass without question.

[Jesus.]

No one knows that do they?and no one said they were 'frollicking on clouds with harps' did they?In his mind he would be with his son,NO ONE knows what is after death for certain.

Well we do know that he may be decomposing next to his decomposing son, but that's the only claim I made. I actually feel that giving your body back to the earth and becoming a vehicle for new life, is all the afterlife I'll ever need.

[Livia]

Because in no other sphere of life, would people be able to make ridiculous claims, and go completely unchallenged. Asking someone to show their workings out is not aggressive.

If beliefs stay personal and inside that persons own home/head, then I have no problem with it, but nobody is being fair when we allow to nonsense to pass without question.

I have never suggested my faith is good for everyone, and everyone should join in. It's personal to me. No one has to justify their faith to you, or to anyone so if you have a problem with it, it's very much your problem. I wouldn't ask you to "show the workings" of what you believe, because I don't care what you believe. I wouldn't try to belittle you by suggesting what you do or don't believe is "ridiculous".

Unless you really do have all the answers, I'd say it's down to the individual to follow their faith and as long as they're not trying to convert or otherwise interefere with you, you should respect that.

[Jesus.]

I have never suggested my faith is good for everyone, and everyone should join in. It's personal to me. No one has to justify their faith to you, or to anyone so if you have a problem with it, it's very much your problem. I wouldn't ask you to "show the workings" of what you believe, because I don't care what you believe. I wouldn't try to belittle you by suggesting what you do or don't believe is "ridiculous".

Unless you really do have all the answers, I'd say it's down to the individual to follow their faith and as long as they're not trying to convert or otherwise interefere with you, you should respect that.

Faith = belief without evidence. Religion and the religious aren't happy with the kind of personal faith that you advocate, they very much want a say in public life.

When British Bishops blame homosexuality for floods, then that faith that you advocate, refuses to stay personal and private.

I wouldn't go around making claims about things that rely on bronze-aged myths to corroborate their story. By all means, ask me to show my workings out on any subject I hold an opinion, and I'll explain it to you. What I absolutely would not do, is retreat behind the protection of faith.

By having faith, you have a model of how the world works in your head. Asking to explain that is not aggressive.

By not having faith, I also have a model of how the world works in my head. Anyone asking me to explain that is not being aggressive towards me.

[Jake.]

Faith = belief without evidence. Religion and the religious aren't happy with the kind of personal faith that you advocate, they very much want a say in public life.

When British Bishops blame homosexuality for floods, then that faith that you advocate, refuses to stay personal and private.

I wouldn't go around making claims about things that rely on bronze-aged myths to corroborate their story. By all means, ask me to show my workings out on any subject I hold an opinion, and I'll explain it to you. What I absolutely would not do, is retreat behind the protection of faith.

By having faith, you have a model of how the world works in your head. Asking to explain that is not aggressive.

By not having faith, I also have a model of how the world works in my head. Anyone asking me to explain that is not being aggressive towards me.

So if you believe in heaven, you need to believe in the whole Catholic shabang? I can't stand it when people feel the need to question a persons belief to such a high extent. Tell me again, why is it any of your business?

[Jesus.]

So if you believe in heaven, you need to believe in the whole Catholic shabang. I can't stand it when people feel the need to question a persons belief to such a high extent. Tell me again, why is it any of your business?

If people can't explain their beliefs, then maybe they should spend more time thinking about them, so they can?

Ask me anything about what I believe and I'll explain it happily, without being offended by the big, bad, atheist.

I neither ask, nor expect, anything I believe to be exempt from evidence or facts.

I wasn't even replying to one of your posts, but you had to interject a religious response. Yet amazingly, you are now having a go at me for your initiation of this dialogue.

[Jake.]

If people can't explain their beliefs, then maybe they should spend more time thinking about them, so they can?

Ask me anything about what I believe and I'll explain it happily, without being offended by the big, bad, atheist.

I neither ask, nor expect, anything I believe to be exempt from evidence or facts.

I wasn't even replying to one of your posts, but you had to interject a religious response. Yet amazingly, you are now having a go at me for your initiation of this dialogue.

Go on then, ask me an actual question about my beliefs and I will answer. But don't tell me I'm wrong when you obviously don't agree.

[Jesus.]

Go on then, ask me an actual question about my beliefs and I will answer. But don't tell me I'm wrong when you obviously don't agree.

Do you believe in heaven?

What happens there?

What evidence is there for that?

[Jake.]

Do you believe in heaven?

Yep...

[Jake.]

Do you believe in heaven?

What happens there?

What evidence is there for that?

We see deceased love ones and spend eternal life together. And nope, thats why its called a belief.

[Pyramid*]

Unless things have changed since I was a young girl and being brought up RC (and they may have), suicide to a Catholic was a grevious sin, a mortal sin and the soul would be sent to Purgatory, and then eternal death in hell. So as far as sitting clouds and playing harps is concerned - as far as the Catholic faith is concerned, that won't be happening. Suicide was regarded as one of the big 'no nos'.

That aside: I'm not entirely sure what religion has to do with this thread - it seems to have taken some offshoot in a totally different direction.

[Jake.]

Unless things have changed since I was a young girl and being brought up RC (and they may have), suicide to a Catholic was a grevious sin, a mortal sin and the soul would be sent to Purgatory, and then eternal death in hell. So as far as sitting clouds and playing harps is concerned - as far as the Catholic faith is concerned, that won't be happening. Suicide was regarded as one of the big 'no nos'.

That aside: I'm not entirely sure what religion has to do with this thread - it seems to have taken some offshoot in a totally different direction.

The bottom part was exactly why I wanted this conversation to finish when it began.

[Pyramid*]

The bottom part was exactly why I wanted this conversation to finish when it began.

I know, I spotted that earlier.

JHC: it would perhaps be a great debating subject though, and worthy of it's own thread. Given your username: I'd say you'd be ideal for its creation!

[joeysteele]

No one will be in full agreement on this thread,I just see that this man loved his son so much he could not live without him,It DOES happen,I don't think he was selfish ,he was just so overcome with grief,his wife may even take some comfort that he is with his son.

That's a very strong point you make kazanne, a new way of looking at things maybe from his wifes eyes.That's a very warm oulook you have raised as a possibility concerning his wife.

I don't go with the he was selfish point because really rational thinking from him had gone in all probability at the time he ended his life too.
It is just all really sad.

[lostalex]

i remember when Anna Nicole was found dead, a lot of people said she did it on purpose to be with her son.

[Angus]

i remember when Anna Nicole was found dead, a lot of people said she did it on purpose to be with her son.

That may well be true and I, for one, wouldn't judge her. There can be no worse pain in life than losing a child and I can understand how that could have affected her mental state.