Anti-bullying father commits suicide

[Shaun]

:(

A grief-stricken father hanged himself after leaving a final farewell message to friends and family on Facebook, an inquest has been told.

Roger Crouch, 55, was discovered hanged by his wife Paola at their home near Winchcombe on 28 November.

He began an anti-bullying campaign after his son Dominic's suicide over rumours he may have been gay.

Mr Crouch wrote on Facebook "Au Revoir, so long - or maybe A Bientot" before taking his own life in his garage.

"The former Gloucestershire County Council director of children's services and Stow-on-the-Wold town clerk was overcome with grief at the suicide of his 15-year-old son Dominic 18 months earlier," the inquest in Gloucester was told.

The court was told Mrs Crouch alerted neighbours who attempted to resuscitate him, but paramedics declared Mr Crouch dead.

She said in a statement read to the court that her husband had continued to suffer mood swings and bouts of depression over Dominic's death.

"There was a lot of death in his life," she said.

On hearing evidence from psychiatrists that her husband had been "overcome by grief", Mrs Crouch added: "I think it's what you might call in an old fashioned way, a broken heart."

Recording his verdict at Gloucester Coroner's Court, assistant coroner David Dooley said: "Clearly he was very taken up with campaigning for his son and others he felt may have been subjected to bullying.

"But he was eventually overwhelmed by grief for his son. On the evidence I feel I can be sure of his settled intent to take his own life," Mr Dooley added.

Mr Crouch's son died when he jumped off a building near his school, St Edwards in Charlton Kings, in May 2010.

Mr Crouch was previously named as a hero of the year by Stonewall, the lesbian, gay and bisexual charity, for his work.

[Benjamin]

I read that this morning on the BBC site. :sad:

[Niamh.]

Must be so hard to carry on after losing a child, poor guy. I feel for his wife though.

[Kazanne]

That is so very sad,I think a lot of people who lose a child feel like that,but most don't carry it out,i hope he is now at peace with his boy.

[Benjamin]

I feel sorry for the poor mother. First her son, then her husband. :sad:

[Kizzy]

It is hard for a parent to try to comprehend how it must feel to experience that...

[lostalex]

They say losing a child is the worst pain any human can experience.

Maybe he didn't want his son to be alone after feeling so alone on this earth. I hope in some better universe they are together again. R.I.P. both of them. :(

[Glenn.]

I feel for his poor wife.

I disagree completely with suicide and feel there is no excuse whatsoever for taking your own life. It's selfish regardless of the circumstances.

It's the wife that has to go through the pain and loss of losing not only her child but now the husband too.

[Niamh.]

I feel for his poor wife.

I disagree completely with suicide and feel there is no excuse whatsoever for taking your own life. It's selfish regardless of the circumstances.

It's the wife that has to go through the pain and loss of losing not only her child but now the husband too.

That's a very heartless statement to make imo

[Benjamin]

It is hard for a parent to try to comprehend how it must feel to experience that...

I think it's hard for anyone to comprehend how it must feel.

[lostalex]

This kind of thing can actually drive quite a wedge between a husband and wife, as men and women tend to grieve in very different ways. But i also have a huge amount of sympathy for this mother/wife.

I agree with everyone saying it's impossible for us to understand though. SO i don't think there is anything to discuss about it.

[Glenn.]

That's a very heartless statement to make imo

Heartless but true. He wasn't thinking about his wife when he killed himself. Just like many others who kill themselves. They don't think about the people they leave behind.

[lostalex]

Heartless but true. He wasn't thinking about his wife when he killed himself. Just like many others who kill themselves. They don't think about the people they leave behind.

Perhaps his pain was so great that it was impossible to think about anything other than the loss of his son. Why would you expect him to be able to be everything to everyone?

[Benjamin]

Heartless but true. He wasn't thinking about his wife when he killed himself. Just like many others who kill themselves. They don't think about the people they leave behind.

When grieving though you tend to not think about others.

[Niamh.]

Heartless but true. He wasn't thinking about his wife when he killed himself. Just like many others who kill themselves. They don't think about the people they leave behind.

Of course they do Glenn, that's a ridiculous thing to say.

[Glenn.]

Of course they do Glenn, that's a ridiculous thing to say.

If they did they wouldn't want to put their loved ones through that.

It's a selfish way out of your problems IMO

[lostalex]

I think Glenn is subscribing to the sexist "men should be the ROCK of the family" mentality.

Men have feelings too Glenn, and men can be emotionally destroyed by these kind of events too.

[Niamh.]

If they did they wouldn't want to put their loved ones through that.

It's a selfish way out of your problems IMO

And what if you suffer from depression and can't see any other way out of your problems? My best friend committed suicide when she was 18 and I can assure you she was not a selfish person.

[lostalex]

I think he just really missed his son, and wanted to see his son, and thought that this was the only possible chance of seeing his son.

I think this man just loved his son A LOT.

TO say this man is selfish offends me, i don't think there is anything selfish about what this man did. I think he just wanted to try to see his son again.

I'm not religious, but in cases like this, i really hope i'm wrong, and i really hope he does get to see his son again.

[Shaun]

It's sad, some people's attitudes to suicide. It's so easy to sit behind a laptop screen and say they're selfish and thoughtless... there is NOTHING more heart-wrenching than losing a child, and although I'd agree that in this instance it was a case of tunnel-vision (such as thinking he had nothing to live for), it's totally his prerogative. Noone has the right to say he has to continue living in total misery.

[Niamh.]

I think he just really missed his son, and wanted to see his son, and thought that this was the only possible chance of seeing his son.

I think this man just loved his son A LOT.

TO say this man is selfish offends me, i don't think there is anything selfish about what this man did. I think he just wanted to try to see his son again.

I'm not religious, but in cases like this, i really hope i'm wrong, and i really hope he does get to see his son again.

Yeah, I agree with all this.

[Glenn.]

I know someone who killed himself and I didn't think he was a selfish person. He left his wife and two young children.

His family have to go on with that pain for the rest if their lives. To me, someone that kills themselves has no thoughts for what their loved ones they leave behind.


My nan and grandad lost a child when he was eleven. My mum lost her brother and my mums brother and sister lost their brother. The pain they went through made it hard to go on. But suicide never entered their minds. Even though it would of been the easier way out.

Grief does affect people in different ways but to kill yourself is the cowards way out.

[Niamh.]

I know someone who killed himself and I didn't think he was a selfish person. He left his wife and two young children.

His family have to go on with that pain for the rest if their lives. To me, someone that kills themselves has no thoughts for what their loved ones they leave behind.


My nan and grandad lost a child when he was eleven. My mum lost her brother and my mums brother and sister lost their brother. The pain they went through made it hard to go on. But suicide never entered their minds. Even though it would of been the easier way out.

Grief does affect people in different ways but to kill yourself is the cowards way out.

:bored: I need to stop replying now.

[Glenn.]

Think of this situation.

A child killer gets life in prison for murdering a 6yr old. He kills himself. What would your view be on that?

[lostalex]

Compare this to Muslim fathers who would KILL their own son for being gay. (this is a reality)

Now THAT would be selfish, killing your own son because you're EMBARASSED of your own son in the arab world. This is a very common happening in the Muslim world.

Stark contrast isn't it?

[bbfan1991]

So sad. RIP to the guy and condolences to his family, death affects people in different ways:(.

[Glenn.]

Compare this to Muslim fathers who would KILL their own son for being gay. (this is a reality)

Now THAT would be selfish, killing your own son because you're EMBARASSED of your own son in the arab world. This is a very common happening in the Muslim world.

Stark contrast isn't it?

That's just outright murder. Slightly off topic their lostalex.

[Niamh.]

Think of this situation.

A child killer gets life in prison for murdering a 6yr old. He kills himself. What would your view be on that?

Yeah because the two situations are so comparable :rolleyes:

[Glenn.]

Yeah because the two situations are so comparable :rolleyes:

It is when you consider the loved ones of the child. Suicide is suicide whatever way you want to look at it. The easy way out.

[Kizzy]

Well, all these hypotheticals and we will never have one clue as to his state of mind.

[GypsyGoth]

It is when you consider the loved ones of the child. Suicide is suicide whatever way you want to look at it. The easy way out.

How can suicide be the easy way out if it leaves loads of relatives devastated?

[Niamh.]

It is when you consider the loved ones of the child. Suicide is suicide whatever way you want to look at it. The easy way out.

So this man is the same as a child killer now. Give me a ****ing break Glenn :bored:

[Glenn.]

How can suicide be the easy way out if it leaves loads of relatives devastated?

Which is the point I'm trying to make.

If you loved your relatives and your friends why on earth would you want to do that to them. To cause them that much pain. OK the bloke lost his son. Fair enough. I don't know what that feels like but I only have to look at my Nan to glimpse what its like to lose a child. Especially at the age of eleven. To put your child to bed for them not to wake up again is devastating.

My Nan said she wanted to die to be with her son again, but the the thought of putting the entire family through that pain and suffering squashed that idea.

[Niamh.]

Which is the point I'm trying to make.

If you loved your relatives and your friends why on earth would you want to do that to them. To cause them that much pain. OK the bloke lost his son. Fair enough. I don't know what that feels like but I only have to look at my Nan to glimpse what its like to lose a child. Especially at the age of eleven. To put your child to bed for them not to wake up again is devastating.

My Nan said she wanted to die to be with her son again, but the the thought of putting the entire family through that pain and suffering squashed that idea.

So your nan is a stronger person than this man. Doesn't make this man selfish or coward. Everyone is different Glenn and for you to just lump him in the same box as a child killer because he's not as strong as your nan is disgusting and naive imo

[GypsyGoth]

Which is the point I'm trying to make.

If you loved your relatives and your friends why on earth would you want to do that to them. To cause them that much pain. OK the bloke lost his son. Fair enough. I don't know what that feels like but I only have to look at my Nan to glimpse what its like to lose a child. Especially at the age of eleven. To put your child to bed for them not to wake up again is devastating.

My Nan said she wanted to die to be with her son again, but the the thought of putting the entire family through that pain and suffering squashed that idea.

What you're saying doesn't back up your point. Your Nan didn't want to put people through pain and suffering, so she stayed alive. That was the easy option, the more difficult choice for her would have been suicide.

Anyway I think that for some people life is unbearable. Although they might look fine and healthy, it's more like they're a person on life support with little quality of life. They would like to die on their terms and end the suffering.

It's just that mental illness is not given the same status as physical illness in our society.

[Glenn.]

So your nan is a stronger person than this man. Doesn't make this man selfish or coward. Everyone is different Glenn and for you to just lump him in the same box as a child killer because he's not as strong as your nan is disgusting and naive imo

Like I said earlier, suicide is suicide. Whatever way you want to look at it. You can't say otherwise because you know I'm right.

If Ian Huntley killed himself you would think it was the coward's way out, would you not?

[Kizzy]

You could then say 'why does insanity exist' ...non compus mentus...out of your mind . I can fully comprehend why such an experience could trigger a reaction like that. And not feel i had to attatch any rational argument to it.

[Niall]

Poor guy. Thats terrible. I feel so sorry for his family too. :sad:

[Niamh.]

Like I said earlier, suicide is suicide. Whatever way you want to look at it. You can't say otherwise because you know I'm right.

If Ian Huntley killed himself you would think it was the coward's way out, would you not?

Don't tell me what I know tyvm. I really need to stop talking to you about this because you're making me really angry.

[Glenn.]

So I am right then :rolleyes:

[Niall]

Like I said earlier, suicide is suicide. Whatever way you want to look at it. You can't say otherwise because you know I'm right.

If Ian Huntley killed himself you would think it was the coward's way out, would you not?

Don't be so ridiculous. This man obviously took his own life because he couldn't cope with the overwhelming sadness he was feeling. Thats completely different to the suicide of a child killer.

[Niamh.]

So I am right then :rolleyes:

No Glenn you're very ****ing wrong.

[GypsyGoth]

So I am right then :rolleyes:

No Glenn, your point is soo ridiculous that it's making her angry, being right is something different.

[Kizzy]

Well if that is your opinion tou are welcome to it. To post silly rolling eyes to goad a reaction from those who do not share your view and are becoming upset is not acceptable.

[Jake.]

This thread has made me far too angry... poor bloke. And suicide is the easier way out? You have no idea how long he may have been contemplating it... perhaps the desicion to kill himself was a harder choice to make. Bloody ignorance and rudeness of some people on here.

[Glenn.]

Don't be so ridiculous. This man obviously took his own life because he couldn't cope with the overwhelming sadness he was feeling. Thats completely different to the suicide of a child killer.

And without a second thought for his poor wife in the process.


Well if that is your opinion tou are welcome to it. To post silly rolling eyes to goad a reaction from those who do not share your view and are becoming upset is not acceptable.

Yeah.

[Kizzy]

yeah.

[Jordan.]

I feel bad for the suffering he went through but not for him leaving his poor wife to grieve another loss.

[Glenn.]

:worship:

[Niall]

And without a second thought for his poor wife in the process.


He was depressed Glenn. Its a mental illness. He was unwell. To criticise someone who was in a such a delicate state and had gone through such a rough time in their life is just uncalled for.

He most likely didn't think of his wife because, as I stated before, he couldn't cope with his day to day existence, and therefore sought a way out.

[Niamh.]

And without a second thought for his poor wife in the process.




Yeah.

You really think a person who loved his son so much he couldn't bear to be on this planet without him, could be that heartless to not even give "a second thought for his poor wife in the process" I'm really surprised at you Glenn.

[Roy Mars III]

what Glenn is saying has rings of truth to it, but went about explaining it and arguing for it in the worst way possible.

But the truth is when you are in the that state you are not thinking like a totally rational person. Depression get a grips of you and stops you from fully analyzing the situation like you normally would. To call him a coward is just the height of ignorance.

[Roy Mars III]

He was depressed Glenn. Its a mental illness. He was unwell. To criticise someone who was in a such a delicate state and had gone through such a rough time in their life is just uncalled for.

He most likely didn't think of his wife because, as I stated before, he couldn't cope with his day to day existence, and therefore sought a way out.

100% this

[Glenn.]

He was depressed Glenn. Its a mental illness. He was unwell. To criticise someone who was in a such a delicate state and had gone through such a rough time in their life is just uncalled for.

He most likely didn't think of his wife because, as I stated before, he couldn't cope with his day to day existence, and therefore sought a way out.

There's help out there for people who go through this.

It must just be me, but if I lost a child I would want to try and get through the situation with the people I love, more so my wife who would be going through the same thing as me. To just end it all wouldn't be an option remotely.

[Jake.]

When your in that state, you haven't got the mindset of which you would normally have. To slag him off because he has left his wife behind is just plain stupid. Noone knows what its like going through what the two parents went through until it has personally happened to you.

[Jake.]

There's help out there for people who go through this.

It must just be me, but if I lost a child I would want to try and get through the situation with the people I love, more so my wife who would be going through the same thing as me. To just end it all wouldn't be an option remotely.

So he is in the wrong because you would be able to cope with it better? My god.

[Smithy]

No Glenn, your point is soo ridiculous that it's making her angry, being right is something different.

:joker:

[Glenn.]

He was doing good in the world with his anti bullying campaign. It should of been enough for him to cope with his days. Knowing he was helping in memory of his son.

[Roy Mars III]

He was doing good in the world with his anti bullying campaign. It should of been enough for him to cope with his days. Knowing he was helping in memory of his son.

who are you to be able to say that

[Angus]

Isn't it just as selfish for others to want those in mental, emotional and physical pain to soldier on in a life they no longer want or enjoy and which they find a daily torture?

The pain of losing one of my children would be unbearable for me, but personally I would never commit suicide because of those I would leave behind, but that would be MY choice and I doubt I'd give a stuff about a stranger's opinion. Walk a mile in someone's shoes before you judge them.

As for being a coward's way out, is it? I think it would take immense courage to kill oneself, when you think of all that could go wrong in the process, or if one is a believer in an afterlife, not knowing for sure what might wait beyond the veil.

[CharlieO]

I read this and felt sad.

[Jake.]

who are you to be able to say that

Exactly... He acts as if he himself has lived through the pain...

[CharlieO]

You really think a person who loved his son so much he couldn't bear to be on this planet without him, could be that heartless to not even give "a second thought for his poor wife in the process" I'm really surprised at you Glenn.

He could have a bad relationship with his wife you don't know?

[Glenn.]

Exactly... He acts as if he himself has lived through the pain...

But my Nan and Grandad have, and they haven't killed themselves.

Neither has the wife in this situation.

[Niamh.]

Isn't it just as selfish for others to want those in mental, emotional and physical pain to soldier on in a life they no longer want or enjoy and which they find a daily torture?

The pain of losing one of my children would be unbearable for me, but personally I would never commit suicide because of those I would leave behind, but that would be MY choice and I doubt I'd give a stuff about a stranger's opinion. Walk a mile in someone's shoes before you judge them.

As for being a coward's way out, is it? I think it would take immense courage to kill oneself, when you think of all that could go wrong in the process, or if one is a believer in an afterlife, not knowing for sure what might wait beyond the veil.

Exactly Angus.

[Jake.]

But my Nan and Grandad have, and they haven't killed themselves.

Neither has the wife in this situation.

My great Nan has, and she is still here. But last time I knew, everybody is different and takes stress differently.

[Roy Mars III]

But my Nan and Grandad have, and they haven't killed themselves.

Neither has the wife in this situation.

everyone handles things differently

[Glenn.]

And everyone has different opinions on everything.:idc:

[CharlieO]

Glenn is wrong. All emotions are controlled by chemicals in the brain, some people produce more bad emotions and cannot handle it, each case varies you cannot say that someone should be able to cope.

[Jake.]

And everyone has different opinions on everything.:idc:

There is an opinion, then there is being rude and disrespectful.

[Niamh.]

Glenn is wrong. All emotions are controlled by chemicals in the brain, some people produce more bad emotions and cannot handle it, each case varies you cannot say that someone should be able to cope.

Exactly Charlie, as for your other post about his relationship with his wife, who knows? I don't, that's the whole point really, nobody knows how he was feeling at the time.

[Glenn.]

All I'm saying is the only people I feel sorry for in situations of suicide are the people left behind. Because in my opinion suicide isn't the answer for anything. All it does is cause more pain and suffering, which obviously people on here are OK with.

[MTVN]

Isn't it just as selfish for others to want those in mental, emotional and physical pain to soldier on in a life they no longer want or enjoy and which they find a daily torture?

The pain of losing one of my children would be unbearable for me, but personally I would never commit suicide because of those I would leave behind, but that would be MY choice and I doubt I'd give a stuff about a stranger's opinion. Walk a mile in someone's shoes before you judge them.

As for being a coward's way out, is it? I think it would take immense courage to kill oneself, when you think of all that could go wrong in the process, or if one is a believer in an afterlife, not knowing for sure what might wait beyond the veil.

Yeah I'd say I agree with this, I find it something hard to comment on because I can't imagine how far at the edge you feel for suicide to be considered the only option, although that's also why I think it's pretty narrow-minded just to label him as "selfish" and be done with it

[Niamh.]

All I'm saying is the only people I feel sorry for in situations of suicide are the people left behind. Because in my opinion suicide isn't the answer for anything. All it does is cause more pain and suffering, which obviously people on here are OK with.

Find me one single post in this thread where anyone has said, that they're fine with the people left behind suffering.

[Kizzy]

obviously....dear me....im done on this thread. I made my point.

[Jake.]

All I'm saying is the only people I feel sorry for in situations of suicide are the people left behind. Because in my opinion suicide isn't the answer for anything. All it does is cause more pain and suffering, which obviously people on here are OK with.

Who has said they are ok with the remaining ones suffereing... also, are you ok with a person living the rest of their days depressed and miserable?

[Vicky.]

I get what glenns saying, hes just going about it the wrong way I think. Its coming across quite badly :S

[Glenn.]

Find me one single post in this thread where anyone has said, that they're fine with the people left behind suffering.

Its the general feeling I'm getting with people who think its OK to kill yourself because you lose a loved one. And people blatantly ignoring the fact is was a selfish act that left a mourning woman who has lost her child too and now has to go on without a husband.

[Jake.]

Yeah Iv'e made my point now, there isn't much else to add.

[Niamh.]

Its the general feeling I'm getting with people who think its OK to kill yourself because you lose a loved one. And people blatantly ignoring the fact is was a selfish act that left a mourning woman who has lost her child too and now has to go on without a husband.

No one said it's Ok or a good thing to do Glenn. Infact if you read my very first post I said I felt sorry for both the man and his wife, there are no winners in this Glenn and labelling him selfish is just pure ignorance on your part.

[Glenn.]

Who has said they are ok with the remaining ones suffereing... also, are you ok with a person living the rest of their days depressed and miserable?

And how do you suppose the wife is now feeling? Would it be ok for her to kill herself, to waste another life.

A lot of good people in the world die everyday. People who don't want to die, and to have someone just disregard their life like that is selfish.

Especially someone who was campaigning such a needy cause. If it was me, that would of been my drive everyday. To get the message out, to make sure something like a child taking their own life because they were bullied was stamped out.

I couldn't think of a more fitting way to remember your child. To strive and squash out what drove them to suicide in the first place.

Too instead, throw it all away and just end it isn't the answer.

[Ammi]

Anyone who has suffered from depression will know that you cannot think or live beyond your own feelings of unhappiness and deperation. The world around you, including your family, friends etc do not exist...you cannot take on their pain or even acknowledge it as your own consumes you. You can say that sort of self absorbtion is selfish...but it isn't something the person can control, their entire existence is meaningless.
...it is possible to get help of course, if it is recognised and the person seeks help....but imo, a suicide victim is not selfish...they are desperately ill and in need of care, like any other illness...and if they do not get it or are unable to find the strength to seek it, like any illness...it can become 'uncurable'
...back to the OP, bullying in any form...in life...on the internet....is abhorent...two lives were lost..because some disgusting **** bullied this young boy

[CharlieO]

You are acting as if the man just decided to commit suicide out of the blue. Committing suicide is not an easy decision to make, it takes a hell of a lot to drive someone to that point. The feeling of utter helplessness where nothing else could make it better. Some people just cannot cope with that much being put upon them and they have to act for themselves.

If he were to carry on living his life suffering just because he has a wife surely that would be just as unfair, that he has to live in pain because he did not want to hurt another.
There is clearly a depressive gene in that family probably from his side of the family and some times it is the ONLY option.
You do not understand the magnitude of wanting to end your life and how someone is feeling to cause them to do that.

[Jords]

Devastating :sad:

I couldnt even start to think about how he was feeling. And I feel so sad for his wife. I hope shes stronger enough to cope with the 2 losses.

[Glenn.]

Regardless of whether he did it out of the blue or he thought about it for a while he still did it.

The total disregard for life was the result. And its a disregard I don't agree with.

Its a waste.

[Jords]

^
Its not black and white like that though. Not at all.

[Glenn.]

Suicide is a waste of a life.

A terrible waste at that but a waste nonetheless.

[Suze]

Anyone who has suffered from depression will know that you cannot think or live beyond your own feelings of unhappiness and deperation. The world around you, including your family, friends etc do not exist...you cannot take on their pain or even acknowledge it as your own consumes you. You can say that sort of self absorbtion is selfish...but it isn't something the person can control, their entire existence is meaningless.
...it is possible to get help of course, if it is recognised and the person seeks help....but imo, a suicide victim is not selfish...they are desperately ill and in need of care, like any other illness...and if they do not get it or are unable to find the strength to seek it, like any illness...it can become 'uncurable'
...back to the OP, bullying in any form...in life...on the internet....is abhorent...two lives were lost..because some disgusting **** bullied this young boy

Nothing much to add to this ^ Your post Ammi, expresses very well what pain some have where the only solution seeming open to them, is the final one :( Sad but true :(

Glenn, as much as your opinion is a valid one in your eyes, I sincerely hope you never get to suffer the depths of depression some do where they feel no avenues are left to them bar suicide, many things can lead to it, it is not as simple as just believing it is the only way, I am sure many mull over it long before the final decision. Some may even tend to feel they are doing loved one's a favour by ending their own life :(

Sad, sad, story. Poor man :(

[Jake.]

Regardless of whether he did it out of the blue or he thought about it for a while he still did it.

The total disregard for life was the result. And its a disregard I don't agree with.

Its a waste.

But it's not your choice for when somebody decides to go. It is clearly a fact that he must have gotten to such a point of desperation that HE DECIDED that his life was worth leaving. Wether or not his life was worth living cannot be answered, because until you have gone through that yourself, you will not understand such emotions.

[Niamh.]

Nothing much to add to this ^ Your post Ammi, expresses very well what pain some have where the only solution seeming open to them, is the final one :( Sad but true :(

Glenn, as much as your opinion is a valid one in your eyes, I sincerely hope you never get to suffer the depths of depression some do where they feel no avenues are left to them bar suicide, many things can lead to it, it is not as simple as just believing it is the only way, I am sure many mull over it long before the final decision. Some may even tend to feel they are doing loved one's a favour by ending their own life :(

Sad, sad, story. Poor man :(

Yeah, I think this is how my friend felt, I couldn't even begin to imagine what she was going through or how low and desperate things must have seemed for suicide to seem like the only solution.

[Glenn.]

But it's not your choice for when somebody decides to go. It is clearly a fact that he must have gotten to such a point of desperation that HE DECIDED that his life was worth leaving. Wether or not his life was worth living cannot be answered, because until you have gone through that yourself, you will not understand such emotions.

OK. When did I say I decided?:conf:

[CharlieO]

Glenn, please answer me this, how is it a waste of a life? What is life? Why live, what benefit is there?

It is not like his life was created and another's was taken away? we have an abundance of life on earth and one man should be able to make his own decision on that. He was not wasting anything, he was self preserving.

[Jords]

Suicide is a waste of a life.

A terrible waste at that but a waste nonetheless.

I agree. But some people cant cope with the stress and pain life throws at them and this is their way out. And although I see the selfish side of it, its their life and its their choice what they do with it. You could argue its more immoral to make somebody suffer on...

[Shaun]

I hate the term "waste of a life". It's such a grey area at best, and tremendously insulting at worst. Life doesn't come with a set of guidelines - and it's so often attributed to people like Whitney Houston or Amy Winehouse who did WAY, WAY more with their lives than the people who use such a stupid phrase ever have.

[Glenn.]

Theres a huge difference between natural death and simply taking your own because you feel there is no other way out.

And of course it's a waste of life. How can it not be?

Just because there is abundance of life on the planet, it doesn't excuse the situation.

The mans wife would of been going through if not more so what he was going through. And forgive me he couldn't of been in that much of a bad state to update his Facebook status mere minutes before he hung himself.

Life is a precious thing. Good things happen and bad things happen. It's what defines us and I simply refuse to accept this immoral action as anything less than selfish.

I'm sorry, I don't have any sympathy for people that kill themselves and leave devastation and pain behind.

[CharlieO]

I genuinely just cannot see your point of view at all Glenn, it is just so wrong.

[Jords]

I'm sorry, I don't have any sympathy for people that kill themselves and leave devastation and pain behind.

They are dead. They wont care.

[Niamh.]

He couldn't have been in that much of a bad state???? ****ing hell Glenn, he killed himself, finished, gone, end of, what do you think he was thinking?? Oh what a laugh, think I'll kill myself???

[Shaun]

The mans wife would of been going through if not more so what he was going through. And forgive me he couldn't of been in that much of a bad state to update his Facebook status mere minutes before he hung himself.

Why would she have been going through more than him? Because she's a woman?

[CharlieO]

He couldn't have been in that much of a bad state???? ****ing hell Glenn, he killed himself, finished, gone, end of, what do you think he was thinking?? Oh what a laugh, think I'll kill myself???

I don't even know what to say, it is just so ridiculous I cannot fathom it.

[Niamh.]

I don't even know what to say, it is just so ridiculous I cannot fathom it.

Yeah, I think I need to stop reading this thread tbh, I hate that It's making me feel this angry.

[Glenn.]

I genuinely just cannot see your point of view at all Glenn, it is just so wrong.


No it isn't.

Why would she have been going through more than him? Because she's a woman?

Why wouldn't she? She grew the child inside her. A bond the father couldn't rival.

[Glenn.]

What exactly can't anyone understand? Please enlighten me, I'm dying to know.

[Ammi]

Imo the father and mother wouldn't be going through the same thing...that's the thing about grief..it's personal..it can't be shared..and everyone's grief is their own..only theirs. They would both grieve for the same reason but it wouldn't be the same grief...and neither of them may have been able to help the other..the death of a child isn't something that a couple can 'share'...like the birth of a child.

..his 15 year old son committed suicide too..it's interesting that only the father is being discussed

[Marsh.]

I just think it's very difficult to make judgement either way considering none of us actually know these people and the details of their lives.

[lostalex]

Yeah, I think I need to stop reading this thread tbh, I hate that It's making me feel this angry.


now you know why i got out so early. :P


this is the kinda sheet that gets me banned every time.

Say your peace, every word, and then don't look back. That's what i do.

some topics with some people you know you cannot argue with. It sounds horrible but it's true, some people are literally just dumb. Some topics are obviously witch hunts, some topics are obviously genocide. You have to recognize them right away. Just post a big old lecture and get the F OUT. it's the only way.

[Angus]

Theres a huge difference between natural death and simply taking your own because you feel there is no other way out. And of course it's a waste of life. How can it not be? Just because there is abundance of life on the planet, it doesn't excuse the situation. The mans wife would of been going through if not more so what he was going through. And forgive me he couldn't of been in that much of a bad state to update his Facebook status mere minutes before he hung himself. Life is a precious thing. Good things happen and bad things happen. It's what defines us and I simply refuse to accept this immoral action as anything less than selfish. I'm sorry, I don't have any sympathy for people that kill themselves and leave devastation and pain behind.


Life might be a precious thing to you, but to some people it is nothing but a burden. Why can you not see that?

[Marsh.]

Don't think it's fair to call him dumb lostalex. It's just two extremely different perspectives on a situation.

[Shaun]

http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2009/9/7/128968069463932973.jpg

[InOne]

Tragic case for all involved :(

[Angus]

Imo the father and mother wouldn't be going through the same thing...that's the thing about grief..it's personal..it can't be shared..and everyone's grief is their own..only theirs. They would both grieve for the same reason but it wouldn't be the same grief...and neither of them may have been able to help the other..the death of a child isn't something that a couple can 'share'...like the birth of a child.

..his 15 year old son committed suicide too..it's interesting that only the father is being discussed

You are absolutely right Ammi. There is that element of guilt involved also - he probably felt he had failed his child, and I can't imagine how awful that must be. It's something you can't even begin to empathise with unless you have children yourself. If, god forbid, one of my kids, to whom I gave life, deliberately ended it, I would be in such pain and self loathing about my failure as a parent, that I can't even begin to explain how desperate and heart broken I would be.

[lostalex]

F Canada.

P3KvXrryHUQ


tLrxPVPvvjU


w-yFcs8XPhs


B6HGTlJX4hU

[Glenn.]

No ones digging a except for his distraught wife for her dead husband:idc:

[Shaun]

oh jesus christ glenn...

[Marsh.]

No ones digging a except for his distraught wife for her dead husband:idc:

Inappropriate joke for something you seemed to be taking extremely seriously a few posts back.

[Glenn.]

I just can't quite believe I'm being ridiculed because I don't condone suicide.

[Angus]

I just can't quite believe I'm being ridiculed because I don't condone suicide.


It's academic - I doubt whether anyone in such terrible pain would give a stuff about whether you or anyone else condones their actions or not. As for his wife, if her life is so precious to her, she will be able to carry on. We all of us deal with our grief differently. I have had many occasions in my life when I would have gladly ended it all, but I could not bring myself to do it. But that's MY choice, and I certainly wouldn't feel the need to run my decisions about my own body and my own life past anyone, ever. If there's one thing of which I am certain, it is that I, and I alone, own my body, mind and soul.

[lostalex]

I just can't quite believe I'm being ridiculed because I don't condone suicide.

umm, who condoned suicide?

[lostalex]

just watch the youtube clips i posted, it's hilarious watching howard ridicule the canadians on his first day in the canadian market.

can't we all just get along and ridicule canadians?

[MTVN]

What's it got to do with suicide :conf2:

[lostalex]

What's it got to do with suicide :conf2:

nothing, i'm just trying to lighten up the mood, and stop people from arguing over something that meansNOTHING because the guy is DEAD.

[Glenn.]

umm, who condoned suicide?

The mere fact that people are shooting down my opinions on suicide?

[Marsh.]

Lostalex trying to diffuse the tension in a thread? Have you been taking classes? :hugesmile:

And, uh, I like Canadians. :blush:

[Ammi]

I just think it's very difficult to make judgement either way considering none of us actually know these people and the details of their lives.

...that is exactly right. No parent ever believes they will outlive their children. If you lose a child to cancer, you could channel your grief through helping other similar families and fundraising... if your child was murdered, you could focus your grief on the capture/conviction/sentencing...and you could hate the murderer..hate is a focus, a channel....if you lost your child through suicide....you could focus on the 'reason'..help bully victims...

...you could do that...if you were able to channel your grief...if you were able to focus on another aspect...people always say 'take your mind off' ..'keep busy' .....

...but you have to be able to do that. You have to know how to do that...you have to be able to be able to find a reason..a cause..something you feel strongly enough about to be able to channel your emotions into...at a time when you have very little strength to put one foor in front of the other...

...you could argue, that if he hadn't of committed suicide...maybe in a month...6 months...a year....things may have seemed different to him...he may have found a channel...

...but this was the cards he was dealt...this was the reality of his life...this was the despair he felt...there was no 'future' for him...there was only a 'now'...and he obviously felt that was the only channel he had

[Kazanne]

Think of this situation.

A child killer gets life in prison for murdering a 6yr old. He kills himself. What would your view be on that?

They dont get life!!!!and they rarely kill themselves IF they do I say it's great they at least had a conscience about what they did,IF that is the reason they did it,and nice that they saved us loads of money and imo suicide is NOT a cowards way out it is usually desperation.

[Glenn.]

They dont get life!!!!and they rarely kill themselves IF they do I say it's great they at least had a conscience about what they did,IF that is the reason they did it,and nice that they saved us loads of money and imo suicide is NOT a cowards way out it is usually desperation.

And you think the family of the murdered child would think like that?

[Kazanne]

And you think the family of the murdered child would think like that?

I really dont think I am the right person to question on that,lets just say this guy wasn't a child murderer,he loved his son and I as a mum can see why he was so distraught.

[Glenn.]

I really dont think I am the right person to question on that,lets just say this guy wasn't a child murderer,he loved his son and I as a mum can see why he was so distraught.

Hypothetically if your child was murdered and the murderer killed himself, then how would you feel?

[Marsh.]

...you could argue, that if he hadn't of committed suicide...maybe in a month...6 months...a year....things may have seemed different to him...he may have found a channel...


That's what guts me personally when it comes to suicides. You think how, with the right help and support, this person could have been guided into a happier and healthier future.

My mum suffered with depression a lot when she was younger aswell as panic attacks and everything. She said it feels like a different person when she thinks back to her darkest times when it felt like she'd never feel happiness again. You never know what the future holds.

[Marsh.]

Hypothetically if your child was murdered and the murderer killed himself, then how would you feel?

Sorry, I know this was directed at kazanne but how is that relevant to this particular case?

[Ammi]

That's what guts me personally when it comes to suicides. You think how, with the right help and support, this person could have been guided into a happier and healthier future.

My mum suffered with depression a lot when she was younger aswell as panic attacks and everything. She said it feels like a different person when she thinks back to her darkest times when it felt like she'd never feel happiness again. You never know what the future holds.

No you don't..but we don't live in the future..we live in the present...sometimes people can't see beyond their grief to recognise they need help..none of us have got a suicide tick list...we can only take every minute as it comes and hope we get through to the next...this guy couldn't do that..his grief had obviously become bigger than him..some get through and some don't

[Marsh.]

No you don't..but we don't live in the future..we live in the present...sometimes people can't see beyond their grief to recognise they need help..none of us have got a suicide tick list...we can only take every minute as it comes and hope we get through to the next...this guy couldn't do that..his grief had obviously become bigger than him..some get through and some don't

I know that. Just saying it's sad when from a rational POV these tragedies can be avoided.

[Kazanne]

Hypothetically if your child was murdered and the murderer killed himself, then how would you feel?

Good riddance to them ,is the polite way of putting it.

[Ammi]

I know that. Just saying it's sad when from a rational POV these tragedies can be avoided.

Yes...there probably aren't many people who commit suicide while they are rational

[Glenn.]

Sorry, I know this was directed at kazanne but how is that relevant to this particular case?

For kazannes viewpoint on suicide.

[Glenn.]

Really? You would think 'good riddance' for someone who murdered your child? You would of thought them taking the easy way out?

[Kazanne]

For kazannes viewpoint on suicide.

Glenn,a girl I used to nanny for in New York recently committed suicide and it was a complete shock,when i looked after her she was 8ish and a sweet lively kid that was always smiling and happy,We were given the news just before christmas that she had died she was 21,turns out she had Bi Polar and suffered bad depression and in the end took her own life,her family realize she she was ill ,she was not selfish imo,she just couldn't hack day to day life anymore,it was hard for me to comprehend as I still thought of her as that sweet ,smiling kid,,but unless we have ever been there we really cannot call them cowards or selfish,just my opinion of course.

[Kazanne]

Really? You would think 'good riddance' for someone who murdered your child? You would of thought them taking the easy way out?

Glenn ,if someone touched my kid they wouldn't have to commit suicide,I'de do it for them,sorry but you did ask and the 'child murder' topic really is not relevent.

[Glenn.]

I girl in my year at school killed herself on Christmas Eve because her mum and dad refused to let her go out clubbing. Prime example of a selfish suicide. Her family can no longer celebrate Christmas down to her selfish actions.

[Ammi]

People in despair don't make a tick list..the pros and the cons...which is the easier/harder way..there are no pros

..I'm still wondering why nobody is saying how selfish his 15 year old son was...he committed suicide too

[Ammi]

I girl in my year at school killed herself on Christmas Eve because her mum and dad refused to let her go out clubbing. Prime example of a selfish suicide. Her family can no longer celebrate Christmas down to her selfish actions.

..I don't think you can equate not being able to have a night out with losing a child...it's not that black and white

[Kazanne]

People in despair don't make a tick list..the pros and the cons...which is the easier/harder way..there are no pros

..I'm still wondering why nobody is saying how selfish his 15 year old son was...he committed suicide too

Good point Ammi,and the girl Glenn said committed suicide Xmas eve because she couldn't go clubbing surely MUST have had other issues going on in her life to do that.

[Jamie.]

I feel for his poor wife.

I disagree completely with suicide and feel there is no excuse whatsoever for taking your own life. It's selfish regardless of the circumstances.

It's the wife that has to go through the pain and loss of losing not only her child but now the husband too.

A very heartless comment Glenn.
--

Poor guy, he must have felt awful. I totally feel for his wife and him.
Bullying is TOTALLY disgraceful and I am totally against it.

Just to add on to this, if there are any spots of bullying in real or on this site (or anywhere), I have got a few links for support:
ChildLine: childline.org.uk (0800 1111)
(I am one of these!) CyberMentors: cybermentors.org.uk
TheFutureYou: thefutureyou.org.uk

These are just 3 of the many.

Thanks :)

[CharlieO]

I girl in my year at school killed herself on Christmas Eve because her mum and dad refused to let her go out clubbing. Prime example of a selfish suicide. Her family can no longer celebrate Christmas down to her selfish actions.

She most likely had far stronger reasons than that. And if she did not why would someone want to live if something that little made them that unhappy.

The decision to get close to committing suicide IS NOT EASY. It takes a brave person to do it and an extremely depressed person to want to.
You honestly have no idea.

[Glenn.]

Good point Ammi,and the girl Glenn said committed suicide Xmas eve because she couldn't go clubbing surely MUST have had other issues going on in her life to do that.

No she didn't. She was perfectly sane. Her mother and father told her no and she ran upstairs screaming she was going to kill herself.

[Jamie.]

No she didn't. She was perfectly sane. Her mother and father told her no and she ran upstairs screaming she was going to kill herself.

Glenn, you are being EXTREMELY rude and offending many people on here (I being one of those)
If you have nothing NICE to say, GET OF THE DAMN FORUM. your so inconciderate and rude.

[Ammi]

Good point Ammi,and the girl Glenn said committed suicide Xmas eve because she couldn't go clubbing surely MUST have had other issues going on in her life to do that.

..the two can't be compared imo Kazanne..I'm sure this man wasn't taking revenge on his wife when he killed himself

[CharlieO]

No she didn't. She was perfectly sane. Her mother and father told her no and she ran upstairs screaming she was going to kill herself.

HOW WOULD YOU KNOW? This is mental how you think it is an easy thing to do. Clearly she had depressive and uncontrollable issues caused by chemicals in the brain which were too much for herself as a human to handle.

[Ammi]

No she didn't. She was perfectly sane. Her mother and father told her no and she ran upstairs screaming she was going to kill herself.

..if that's the case Glenn..and she was rational and just wanted revenge on her parents...that's not selfish...it's stupid

[Glenn.]

Because I knew her?

[Jake.]

Theres a huge difference between natural death and simply taking your own because you feel there is no other way out.

And of course it's a waste of life. How can it not be?

Just because there is abundance of life on the planet, it doesn't excuse the situation.

The mans wife would of been going through if not more so what he was going through. And forgive me he couldn't of been in that much of a bad state to update his Facebook status mere minutes before he hung himself.

Life is a precious thing. Good things happen and bad things happen. It's what defines us and I simply refuse to accept this immoral action as anything less than selfish.

I'm sorry, I don't have any sympathy for people that kill themselves and leave devastation and pain behind.

Answer me this Glenn.... what do you think of the boy who killed himself (the one who was bullied)?

[Glenn.]

Glenn, you are being EXTREMELY rude and offending many people on here (I being one of those)
If you have nothing NICE to say, GET OF THE DAMN FORUM. your so inconciderate and rude.

In what way exactly am I being rude? Ive been called ignorant throughout because of my opinion.

[Shaun]

Making jokes about the widow having to dig holes? No not rude at all.

[Jamie.]

In what way exactly am I being rude? Ive been called ignorant throughout because of my opinion.

Keep your opinions to yourself if you know they will effect others

[Glenn.]

Answer me this Glenn.... what do you think of the boy who killed himself (the one who was bullied)?

The same as the father. I don't condone suicide. It's awful that the child was bullied and disgraceful that it wasn't picked up.

Needless to say suicide is not an option

[CharlieO]

Because I knew her?

Clearly you did not. People can hide things easily. Not one of my close friends know about my depressive past but they would all say they knew me.
You are ignorant beyond belief it is incomprehensible.

[Jamie.]

The same as the father. I don't condone suicide. It's awful that the child was bullied and disgraceful that it wasn't picked up.

Needless to say suicide is not an option

And what do you suggest otherwise?

[Glenn.]

Making jokes about the widow having to dig holes? No not rude at all.

And? It's no different to having Whitney Housten on your deathlist.

[Jake.]

The same as the father. I don't condone suicide. It's awful that the child was bullied and disgraceful that it wasn't picked up.

Needless to say suicide is not an option

So was the child also selfish? Or were the teenagers who made his life un-liveable the selfish ones?

[CharlieO]

The same as the father. I don't condone suicide. It's awful that the child was bullied and disgraceful that it wasn't picked up.

Needless to say suicide is not an option

So you would prefer that boy and that father to just live in suffering and torture from their own minds?

[Glenn.]

Clearly you did not. People can hide things easily. Not one of my close friends know about my depressive past but they would all say they knew me.
You are ignorant beyond belief it is incomprehensible.

Well clearly I did. And exactly how am I ignorant? Because I fail to be a sheep and say exactly what's on my mind?

[Jesus.]

I don't agree with suicide and have some sympathy with the case Glenn is forwarding here. However, it's impossible to know what is actually happening inside the head of the person concerned, unless you (rather impossibly) walk a mile in their shoes.

No one knows how the connecting circuits of our brains, are firing/misfiring in the heads of others.

[Glenn.]

So was the child also selfish? Or were the teenagers who made his life un-liveable the selfish ones?

Erm both were.

[CharlieO]

Well clearly I did. And exactly how am I ignorant? Because I fail to be a sheep and say exactly what's on my mind?

You cannot even contemplate the fact that someone you 'knew' had other things going on that she wouldn't discuss with you which would put her in a pit of helplessness. No not ignorant at all.

[Jake.]

Erm both were.

Right......... clearly most on here will have to agree to disagree with you.

[Angus]

And what do you suggest otherwise?

It's obvious, the alternative on offer seems to be a lifetime of unimaginable emotional and mental suffering which can never be assuaged. We all lead very different lives depending on the interaction of so many environmental, circumstantial, familial and genetic factors. How on earth can anyone say there is a "one size fits all" solution to such an emotive and personal issue? Having an open mind on the subject does not mean it is condoned - just understood.

[Glenn.]

Right......... clearly most on here will have to agree to disagree with you.

Do you disagree then?

The child was selfish to kill himself and the bullies were just as selfish for causing such upset.

I fail to understand why anyone is condoning this, but to instead insult someone who disagrees with suicide. And I'm being rude??

[Jamie.]

I know how this kid felt, nearly.
I was not bullied for being gay, because I'm not.
But I was bullied because of a disability and once, just ONCE felt suicidal.
And it's horrible, a horrible feeling.
So you, Glenn, have NO right to say that its selfish.

[Glenn.]

You cannot even contemplate the fact that someone you 'knew' had other things going on that she wouldn't discuss with you which would put her in a pit of helplessness. No not ignorant at all.

No I'm not. She killed herself because she wanted to show her parents a lesson. She was a happy girl, pretty much the perfect life, boyfriend a decent job.

I think you're the one being ignorant. But hey, what do I know.

[Glenn.]

I know how this kid felt, nearly.
I was not bullied for being gay, because I'm not.
But I was bullied because of a disability and once, just ONCE felt suicidal.
And it's horrible, a horrible feeling.
So you, Glenn, have NO right to say that its selfish.

I'm human so have the basic right of freedom of speech.

[Jamie.]

I'm human do have the basic right of freedom of speech.

In this case, no.

[Glenn.]

Yes I do.

It's my opinion. And it's an opinion that echoes across the world.

[CharlieO]

No I'm not. She killed herself because she wanted to show her parents a lesson. She was a happy girl, pretty much the perfect life, boyfriend a decent job.

I think you're the one being ignorant. But hey, what do I know.

That is what you think/were told. She would have had other things going on and will have had a mental defect where by the chemicals in her brain were not functioning correctly.

We are not condoning suicide but sometimes it is an option, if someone is living an amazingly painful life with no joy and no hope, why should that person carry on living it?

[CharlieO]

I'm human so have the basic right of freedom of speech.

You do but it is a ridiculous use of the right.

[Jamie.]

Glenn, I am not going to argue with you, but I ask one question, Have you ever felt suicidal OR tried for a reason of bullying or a relative dying?

[Glenn.]

Your right it is their decision. They have that right.

It's their choice to kill themselves and not once have I said otherwise today. I just don't agree with it. I have no sympathy with people that kill themselves regardless of the situation. If that makes me heartless, I couldn't care less.

[CharlieO]

Glenn, if you had a relative that has suffered with extreme depression for several years and they had done everything that they could to help themselves (drugs, psychiatrists, doctors etc) and they could no longer cope with life and just lived like a vegetable because they could not take the world. Constantly upset, constantly crying, not enjoying anything, spoiling things for others around them because they cannot even physically smile anymore or see the good in things.

They were begging you about how their only wish was to die ad they could not take life anymore, crying on you about how it was far too painful. Are you telling us you would say that is selfish of them and you would not accept it as the best thing for that person at that point? or would in fact you be the selfish one, saying that their decision is selfish even though their pain could be a whole lot worse than any of the grievers may feel?

[Jamie.]

Your right, it is their decision, but 99% of them have perfect reasons.
I am also against suicide, there are always people to speak to about suicide, but people have their reasons, child abuse, bullying, whatever the case.

[Angus]

Your right it is their decision. They have that right.

It's their choice to kill themselves and not once have I said otherwise today. I just don't agree with it. I have no sympathy with people that kill themselves regardless of the situation. If that makes me heartless, I couldn't care less.

That one sentence negates the whole of your argument. If you couldn't care less about another human being's suffering, then your opinion is pretty much worthless:idc:

[fruit_cake]

how ironic that an anti-bullying thread turns into.....

[Glenn.]

Glenn, if you had a relative that has suffered with extreme depression for several years and they had done everything that they could to help themselves (drugs, psychiatrists, doctors etc) and they could no longer cope with life and just lived like a vegetable because they could not take the world. Constantly upset, constantly crying, not enjoying anything, spoiling things for others around them because they cannot even physically smile anymore or see the good in things.

They were begging you about how their only wish was to die ad they could not take life anymore, crying on you about how it was far too painful. Are you telling us you would say that is selfish of them and you would not accept it as the best thing for that person at that point? or would in fact you be the selfish one, saying that their decision is selfish even though their pain could be a whole lot worse than any of the grievers may feel?

There really wouldn't be that much you could do in circumstances like that. If they fail to help themselves with a network of family and friends that want to help around them, then they would be a lost cause. There's nothing worse than someone unwilling to help themselves. There's a difference to someone wanting help to people that refuse it, because 'its too much'


The father in this situation was the front of a campaign to stop bullying. That should of been enough. Knowing he was striving for something positive in what must of been an unbearable time. He also had his wife who needed his support, because she lost a son too. He was duty bound to support her as the wife was duty bound to do likewise. Not to mention the friends of the family plus the followers of his campaign.



That one sentence negates the whole of your argument. If you couldn't care less about another human being's suffering, then your opinion is pretty much worthless:idc:

Yeah sure. Because the father thought of his wife as he was tying a rope around his neck.

The same can be said to those that today have brushed off my replies as ignorant. My posts being quashed because I don't agree with throwing a life away. No life is worthless.

Glenn, I am not going to argue with you, but I ask one question, Have you ever felt suicidal OR tried for a reason of bullying or a relative dying?

Yes. I was bullied in middle school and had to take a year out because of it. I thought about ending it. I even started writing a letter to my mum and dad apologizing for what I was doing. I couldn't finish the letter because I was overcome with emotion. The mere thought of my mother and father finding my lifeless body hanging in my bedroom was enough to put me straight. I overcome it. I went to school and put the tosser making my life hell in hospital and learned to stick up for myself.

So in answer to your question yes I have been suicidal. I know perfectly well what it feels like, but I refused to be that person and put my family through that pain.

[CharlieO]

'Should have been enough'

Who are you to say what makes someone happy?

[Shaun]

And? It's no different to having Whitney Housten on your deathlist.

Didn't actually. In fact I objected to the thread being bumped so soon after her death. Try harder.

[Glenn.]

Who are you to say what makes someone happy?

Would that not of made you happy then? Knowing he had all that support?

Seems to me your clutching at straws.

[CharlieO]

Would that not of made you happy then? Knowing he had all that support?

Seems to me your clutching at straws.

No to be honest it wouldn't. What do you not understand about the fact he probably had a depressive gene which caused the chemicals in his brain to not produce at the optimum balance. It is ridiculous that because people believed in his cause it means he should have been happy. You do not know what else was going on in his personal life also.

Also me 'clutching at straws'? Your whole premise is ridiculous to begin with.

[Glenn.]

No to be honest it wouldn't. What do you not understand about the fact he probably had a depressive gene which caused the chemicals in his brain to not produce at the optimum balance. It is ridiculous that because people believed in his cause it means he should have been happy. You do not know what else was going on in his personal life also.

Also me 'clutching at straws'? Your whole premise is ridiculous to begin with.

Anyone who makes excuses about how suicide is right is ridiculous.

[CharlieO]

Anyone who makes excuses about how suicide is right is ridiculous.

No one has said it is right. It just is not always entirely wrong.

[CharlieO]

Anyone who makes excuses about how suicide is right is ridiculous.

What about when the twin towers got crashed into? People committed suicide rather than burning to death? Was that entirely wrong and selfish?

[Glenn.]

What about when the twin towers got crashed into? People committed suicide rather than burning to death? Was that entirely wrong and selfish?

Yeah. They were going to die anyway. I would of killed myself if I was up in them towers, knowing there was no way out.

Its not really comparable to the situation we're discussing though is it?

[Pyramid*]

I have sat here and read every post here and to be perfectly honest: I am pretty disgusted at the way some (many) posters on here are addressing Glenn.

He has his own opinion and has spent time explain why he has his views. I have seen no posts in which he has been disrespectful: yet he's been accused of that.

So far, I've seen him being cursed at, being told he is wrong, ignorant, doesn't know what he is talking about and god know what else - simply because he sees suicide in a different light to others on here.

What happened to respecting someone elses opinion - regardless of how controversial it may be? Is that no longer allowed on this forum without the person being sworn at and insulted in all manner of ways?

I for one, totally and completely understand exactly where Glenn is coming from. 100% understand. I understand because I have been there in fairly similar circumstances: as in 'this woman, the wife in this sad story' being left having to deal with not one suicide but two. - and I can tell you all quite categorically: that whilst no one can understand what depth of despair the suicidal person in, no one can be in the suicidal person's mind and appreciate what does drive them to make that final fatal decison: the twist in the knife is that it IS selfish to the one / ones that are left behind. There IS a degree of selfishness in the act. Is it cowardly to take your own life? yes, partly imo. It must also be one of the hardest things to do at the same time.

I can tell say with hand on heart - it leaves so much doubt that you yourself feel worthless, that in reality, you meant little to that person who took their own life, you are left feeling helpless because you perhaps didn't notice how bad they were, or could you have helped more, , you feel that you weren't able to help the one you loved, questions go unanswered, you feel completely abandoned by those you loved and that's before you even start to think about grieving for them. That's only touching the surface on how it feels. And here's the kick: that feeling never leaves you. EVER.

The person who takes their own life - having already experienced the pain a suicide has caused / is causing them: they know how hard it is to cope with (to the point that they cannot cope and elect for suicuide). They know those feelings that I've just mentioned above - and know them all too well.

To expect the person/s left behind to have to deal with double that feeling with a second suicuide - it's not saying that they aren't thinking of that person: but at that particular point in time, what they are thinking more of : is their OWN grief and how they cannot cope with it. Whether that be through feeling a failure as a parent, mixed with the grief, the hurt, the pain..... whatever goes on in their mind: That means more to them, than the other person they know they are going to leave behind. It's enough to make them follow the same terrible path.

I can see both points of view - those who take their own life: and those who are left behind.

But to berate Glenn in the manner that some of you are doing here because he has a strong opinion - and to speak to him in the manner that some are: is out of order.

I don't particularly care who agrees or disagrees with me - but that's my tuppeniesworth - I don't intend belittling, cursing or mocking anyone who doesn't share my opinon: I may not agree but I'll respect someone else thought and views.

[CharlieO]

Yeah. They were going to die anyway. I would of killed myself if I was up in them towers, knowing there was no way out.

Its not really comparable to the situation we're discussing though is it?

How so, depression could be the same, trapped in your own mind, knowing there is no way to get better, having to live with constant mental pain. How is that completely different?

[Glenn.]

Thanks Pyramid :hug:

[Pyramid*]

How so, depression could be the same, trapped in your own mind, knowing there is no way to get better, having to live with constant mental pain. How is that completely different?

Knowing that you death is imminent Charlie: either by way of being burnt alive, crushed and dying in absolute agony: vs throwing yourself from 120 floor up and death coming quickly is a completely different ball game altogether.

[Glenn.]

How so, depression could be the same, trapped in your own mind, knowing there is no way to get better, having to live with constant mental pain. How is that completely different?


There was literally NO hope of getting out of them towers alive.

Being trapped in a burning building is not the same as being trapped in your own mind. They were being burnt alive.

To make such a comparison is disgusting.

[CharlieO]

There was literally NO hope of getting out of them towers alive.

Being trapped in a burning building is not the same as being trapped in your own mind. They were being burnt alive.

To make such a comparison is disgusting.

We now know there was no hope. Most of them did not know what was happening, they may have been saved they did not know.

You have clearly never felt depression. The fact you say someone should just be able to live with their pain is far more disgusting as you do not know what they go through. It is a horrible, painful monster, depression is. Sometimes death and a sense of nothingness is better than being in constant pain.

[CharlieO]

Knowing that you death is imminent Charlie: either by way of being burnt alive, crushed and dying in absolute agony: vs throwing yourself from 120 floor up and death coming quickly is a completely different ball game altogether.

I believe it is different in a sense of physical and mental yes, but in honesty I believe the mind can cause a million times more pain than a physical effect can. I believe that the mental pain of depression spread over many years would be worse as the mind can override physical pain and inflict a great deal of mental pain.

[Glenn.]

We now know there was no hope. Most of them did not know what was happening, they may have been saved they did not know.

You have clearly never felt depression. The fact you say someone should just be able to live with their pain is far more disgusting as you do not know what they go through. It is a horrible, painful monster, depression is. Sometimes death and a sense of nothingness is better than being in constant pain.

That's your stance on it then. 'They didn't know what was happening'


My friend I no longer feel inclined to argue with you.

You are now clutching at straws by twisting your own example to suit your argument.

And yes I have felt depression. I know what its like to feel there is nothing. The thought of devastating my family and friends eased that.

Don't talk to me about not knowing what depression is.

[Pyramid*]

We now know there was no hope. Most of them did not know what was happening, they may have been saved they did not know.

You have clearly never felt depression. The fact you say someone should just be able to live with their pain is far more disgusting as you do not know what they go through. It is a horrible, painful monster, depression is. Sometimes death and a sense of nothingness is better than being in constant pain.

Charlie, with all respect: you don't KNOW what anyone else may have gone through in their life. They shouldn't have to declare that they 'do know from personal experience'' to prove their point.

Depression affects people all so very differently on various levels.

I don't find Glenn's views disgusting. I may not agree with some of his views: but he has his reasons - just as you have yours - and each of you feel strongly.

I dont' think there is anything to be gained from labelling anyone disgusting because they don't have your view: from personal insight or not.

The comparison to the TT, is not comparable to the mental anguish of depression. Depression doesn't take hold in the space of an hour or two: the comparison simply is not there. IMO of course.

[Marsh.]

Glenn, if you had a relative that has suffered with extreme depression for several years and they had done everything that they could to help themselves (drugs, psychiatrists, doctors etc) and they could no longer cope with life and just lived like a vegetable because they could not take the world. Constantly upset, constantly crying, not enjoying anything, spoiling things for others around them because they cannot even physically smile anymore or see the good in things.

They were begging you about how their only wish was to die ad they could not take life anymore, crying on you about how it was far too painful. Are you telling us you would say that is selfish of them and you would not accept it as the best thing for that person at that point? or would in fact you be the selfish one, saying that their decision is selfish even though their pain could be a whole lot worse than any of the grievers may feel?


Regardless of your other points I don't think I would ever say suicide was someone's best option.

[Glenn.]

Its never an option, whatever situation.

[fruit_cake]

I have sat here and read every post here and to be perfectly honest: I am pretty disgusted at the way some (many) posters on here are addressing Glenn.

He has his own opinion and has spent time explain why he has his views. I have seen no posts in which he has been disrespectful: yet he's been accused of that.

So far, I've seen him being cursed at, being told he is wrong, ignorant, doesn't know what he is talking about and god know what else - simply because he sees suicide in a different light to others on here.

What happened to respecting someone elses opinion - regardless of how controversial it may be? Is that no longer allowed on this forum without the person being sworn at and insulted in all manner of ways?

I for one, totally and completely understand exactly where Glenn is coming from. 100% understand. I understand because I have been there in fairly similar circumstances: as in 'this woman, the wife in this sad story' being left having to deal with not one suicide but two. - and I can tell you all quite categorically: that whilst no one can understand what depth of despair the suicidal person in, no one can be in the suicidal person's mind and appreciate what does drive them to make that final fatal decison: the twist in the knife is that it IS selfish to the one / ones that are left behind. There IS a degree of selfishness in the act. Is it cowardly to take your own life? yes, partly imo. It must also be one of the hardest things to do at the same time.

I can tell say with hand on heart - it leaves so much doubt that you yourself feel worthless, that in reality, you meant little to that person who took their own life, you are left feeling helpless because you perhaps didn't notice how bad they were, or could you have helped more, , you feel that you weren't able to help the one you loved, questions go unanswered, you feel completely abandoned by those you loved and that's before you even start to think about grieving for them. That's only touching the surface on how it feels. And here's the kick: that feeling never leaves you. EVER.

The person who takes their own life - having already experienced the pain a suicide has caused / is causing them: they know how hard it is to cope with (to the point that they cannot cope and elect for suicuide). They know those feelings that I've just mentioned above - and know them all too well.

To expect the person/s left behind to have to deal with double that feeling with a second suicuide - it's not saying that they aren't thinking of that person: but at that particular point in time, what they are thinking more of : is their OWN grief and how they cannot cope with it. Whether that be through feeling a failure as a parent, mixed with the grief, the hurt, the pain..... whatever goes on in their mind: That means more to them, than the other person they know they are going to leave behind. It's enough to make them follow the same terrible path.

I can see both points of view - those who take their own life: and those who are left behind.

But to berate Glenn in the manner that some of you are doing here because he has a strong opinion - and to speak to him in the manner that some are: is out of order.

I don't particularly care who agrees or disagrees with me - but that's my tuppeniesworth - I don't intend belittling, cursing or mocking anyone who doesn't share my opinon: I may not agree but I'll respect someone else thought and views.

well said Pyramid I agree with you, the treatment of Glenn in this thread is disgraceful.

[Pyramid*]

well said Pyramid I agree with you, the treatment of Glenn in this thread is disgraceful.

Nice to see that we do (albeit rarely) find common ground.

I just do not see the need for it. It's a sensitive and emotive subject: that I understand, and passions flare understandably: but we're all adults in the main on here: and if we're going to talk about respecting the persons concerned in the story: we should perhaps start respecting each other first.

[Glenn.]

Noticeable that no one else has commented for a while.

[Pyramid*]

Noticeable that no one else has commented for a while.

New name for me...... Thread Killer. :bawling:

[Glenn.]

:joker:

[Glenn.]

Seems a lot of people have gone quiet.

[Pyramid*]

Mmm....

The hardest part for the mum/wife now: is for her to try to not get into the frame of mind of "What's the point in me continuing" - she's now got a double whammy to deal with. How she copes with that - it's a real toughie, that's for sure. Regardless of what we know (or don't know) about the 'state' of their marital situation: it doesn't detract from the fact that with the most awful the loss of her son, she now has the loss of her husband to cope with: it will really test her to the limit.

It may not sound like 'much'... but to be told of a death is one thing - to actually find the person (as anyone who has found themselves in that position: finding a loved one dead via suicide or natural cause) : that's an image that never leaves your mind - because that tends to be the 'last' image you will have of them. It's not pleasant. It's not the best memory to have.

My heart really truly goes out to her, it's devastating and utterly life changing - it's fair to say that the poor soul is going to have one hell of a hard journey ahead of her. :(

[Glenn.]

I've said right from the beginning of this thread, that its the wife I really feel for. Its her that's got to carry on.

[fruit_cake]

Nice to see that we do (albeit rarely) find common ground.



we should make the most of it while it lasts :dance:

[fruit_cake]

I've said right from the beginning of this thread, that its the wife I really feel for. Its her that's got to carry on.

She has been left in a terrible situation, it's a very tragic story all round imo

[Pyramid*]

we should make the most of it while it lasts :dance:

tee hee.... ach we'll cross swords again, fine well we both know, but nice to see that some good comes out of ''tragic'' threads like this.

Puts a lot into perspective really - for all we all moan and gripe.

[Glenn.]

Yeah, she has been left in a terrible situation. Something she will never really come to terms with.

[Pyramid*]

I've said right from the beginning of this thread, that its the wife I really feel for. Its her that's got to carry on.

That's the bit I'm totally with you on.

Don't get me wrong: at the point of 'no return' for the Dad, hell knows what kind of suffering he endured at that particular point that pushed him to the edge: but as heartless as it is: his suffering is over - that is the brutal reality of the situation.

The poor woman is the one left to try to somehow pick up the pieces of her life being shattered (again), due to circumstances that she never had a hand in, that she had no control over - but still has to suffer the consequences of someone else's actions. It is truly a horrible, horrible place to be.

[Glenn.]

Damn right.

[Jake.]

That's the bit I'm totally with you on.

Don't get me wrong: at the point of 'no return' for the Dad, hell knows what kind of suffering he endured at that particular point that pushed him to the edge: but as heartless as it is: his suffering is over - that is the brutal reality of the situation.

The poor woman is the one left to try to somehow pick up the pieces of her life being shattered (again), due to circumstances that she never had a hand in, that she had no control over - but still has to suffer the consequences of someone else's actions. It is truly a horrible, horrible place to be.

100% agree woth you, but throughout my whole point has been what the father must have felt to do what he did. I can only hope that the wife stays strong and doesn't break down like he did.

[Glenn.]

Yeah lets not see another life get thrown down the drain.

[Tom4784]

It's an incredibly sad situation, I feel for the Wife. It's unthinkable to try and guess what losing a child is like but to lose your husband as well....

[Jake.]

Suicide is never a nice subject... and just think, if the bullies hadn't of done what they did, there wouldn't be a heartbroken wife who has had to plan two funerals in under two years...

[Pyramid*]

100% agree woth you, but throughout my whole point has been what the father must have felt to do what he did. I can only hope that the wife stays strong and doesn't break down like he did.

I understand what you are saying, but I also understand what Glenn has been saying: that the father knows what that suffering feels like: but regardless (of his state of mind) - it still wasn't enough to stop him from putting his wife through, for a 2nd time, what he couldn't cope with, once......... that's the aspect I personally cannot comprehend.

Knowing how it feels : and to know that your action will compound that sorrow/grief/pain/ loss/ heartache/ destitution/ emptiness etc: on the loved one you are leaving behind. That's not to say the man was selfish: the ACT was selfish.

[Glenn.]

I understand what you are saying, but I also understand what Glenn has been saying: that the father knows what that suffering feels like: but regardless (of his state of mind) - it still wasn't enough to stop him from putting his wife through, for a 2nd time, what he couldn't cope with, once......... that's the aspect I personally cannot comprehend.

Knowing how it feels : and to know that your action will compound that sorrow/grief/pain/ loss/ heartache/ destitution/ emptiness etc: on the loved one you are leaving behind. That's not to say the man was selfish: the ACT was selfish.

This is what I've been trying to say. I know I obviously went about it all wrong, but my point still stands. Suicide is selfish.

[Pyramid*]

Suicide is never a nice subject... and just think, if the bullies hadn't of done what they did, there wouldn't be a heartbroken wife who has had to plan two funerals in under two years...


This is what hacks me off about bullying. People think it's a laugh, a big joke, just a bit of fun, no sense of humour.

Yet they have no idea how that individual feels inside: or rather, how they are being MADE to feel - and if they voice that - they are ridiculed or mocked even more: exacerbating the problem.

It is something I cannot abide. This is a perfect example of how somethig that some people think is ''just a laugh at someone elses expense'' completely and utterly destroys lives: in the full meaning of the word 'destroy'.

It sickens me tbh.

[Jake.]

I understand what you are saying, but I also understand what Glenn has been saying: that the father knows what that suffering feels like: but regardless (of his state of mind) - it still wasn't enough to stop him from putting his wife through, for a 2nd time, what he couldn't cope with, once......... that's the aspect I personally cannot comprehend.

Knowing how it feels : and to know that your action will compound that sorrow/grief/pain/ loss/ heartache/ destitution/ emptiness etc: on the loved one you are leaving behind. That's not to say the man was selfish: the ACT was selfish.

And I get what you are saying. But clearly anyone who is even contemplating suicide isnt in their normal mindset. It must get to the point where every sad emotion takes over and you forget everyone else, because the only thing on your mind is pain and sadness

[Jake.]

This is what hacks me off about bullying. People think it's a laugh, a big joke, just a bit of fun, no sense of humour.

Yet they have no idea how that individual feels inside: or rather, how they are being MADE to feel - and if they voice that - they are ridiculed or mocked even more: exacerbating the problem.

It is something I cannot abide. This is a perfect example of how somethig that some people think is ''just a laugh at someone elses expense'' completely and utterly destroys lives: in the full meaning of the word 'destroy'.

It sickens me tbh.

Here here.

[Pyramid*]

And I get what you are saying. But clearly anyone who is even contemplating suicide isnt in their normal mindset. It must get to the point where every sad emotion takes over and you forget everyone else, because the only thing on your mind is pain and sadness

therin lies the problem. It only takes minutes (if that, depending on the method) - to make that snap decision - and before you know it, it's too late - the damage is done.

Even my saying that though: I still cannot comprehend the thought of putting someone else through that same suffering that you are experiencing yourself - (if that makes sense). the son wouldn't know what that felt like, but the dad did..... even in such a distressed state of mind: that's the bit I cannot personally fathom out. I never will. Obviously.

All over bullying.

[Glenn.]

Its sickening.

[Jake.]

It's dispicible how a stupid bunch of idiots have ended two lives. Hopefully karma will get them in the end, whether its from being bullied themselves or a life of loneliness.

[Pyramid*]

It's dispicible how a stupid bunch of idiots have ended two lives. Hopefully karma will get them in the end, whether its from being bullied themselves or a life of loneliness.

I'd more wish for them developing a real hefty dose of conscience and having to live with their own actions and the effects of their actions on other.... for the rest of their natural. If I was the really spiteful type , it could be that they see their own children suffer in the same way: but I could never wish that same fate on anyone tbh.

[Kizzy]

Im choosing to opt back into this thread at this point to reiterate my point, people who commit suicide are not selfish. That is not in any way meant to detract or infer that anyone elses point on this thread is called into question.

[Benjamin]

Keep it on topic in here please.

[Z]

I get Glenn's point about it being a selfish act... this man has been so tortured by the suicide of his son that it has driven him to suicide. I would never call him selfish. This was a man who clearly loved his son to the ends of the earth and back. But it is selfish to do that to his wife, someone who also had to deal with the suicide of her son. What does she have left? It's horrible. I hope she's coping but I somehow don't think she can be coping very well. So I think that's why suicide is selfish, because the person committing it hasn't really thought about what their loved ones will go through when they're gone. This case is particularly useful for highlighting that because it's a suicide in response to a suicide. The son's suicide ended up driving the dad to suicide. That's a powerful image, and I think people need to think about that when they talk about this...

[Glenn.]

I was actually shocked at how many people couldn't see where I was coming from. Was it so hard to understand? :conf:

[Kizzy]

Soz ben i wrote and rewrote that post that many times .....im not unlikeable either, i just dont play favorites and speak my mind. You are not the victim here glen, your point is hard to understand yes, as hard as mine and others is to you. But i respect you for your view, can you say the same of others?

[lostalex]

I was actually shocked at how many people couldn't see where I was coming from. Was it so hard to understand? :conf:

well your position changed a bit from the start of the thread, to be fair.

[InOne]

I was actually shocked at how many people couldn't see where I was coming from. Was it so hard to understand? :conf:

I can see where you're coming from. But you put it in quite a cold way and didn't really explain you reasons. What you posted came across as quite detached, can you not see that?

[Glenn.]

Soz ben i wrote and rewrote that post that many times .....im not unlikeable either, i just dont play favorites and speak my mind. You are not the victim here glen, your point is hard to understand yes, as hard as mine and others is to you. But i respect you for your view, can you say the same of others?

That's what I don't understand. How is the thought of a man killing himself leaving his wife to suffer pain and anguish of another dead loved one not selfish.

Its all well and good for people to express their opinions but to shoot mine down for being 'ignorant' and 'rude', because they didn't go with the status quo is outright disgusting.

[Glenn.]

well your position changed a bit from the start of the thread, to be fair.

How exactly?

[Kizzy]

And on that note im out again, its too emotive to be tit for tatting.

[Glenn.]

I can see where you're coming from. But you put it in quite a cold way and didn't really explain you reasons. What you posted came across as quite detached, can you not see that?

Maybe. But I didn't know you got the gas chamber for being detached.

[lostalex]

How exactly? well you seemed to acknowledge the desperation felt by the man eventually...

[Glenn.]

Maybe so, but I didn't and never will agree with the man killing himself.

[Benjamin]

Maybe. But I didn't know you got the gas chamber for being detached.

I think that is down to the high sensitivity of this subject. Don't forget some people here have had first hand experience in having people they know commit suicide. It's definitely an area that you need to respond to with a careful selection of words and emotions.

[InOne]

Maybe. But I didn't know you got the gas chamber for being detached.

Well if posters have personal experience with suicide, then the way you're talking is obviously going to annoy them. It's a really complex thing that is basically a personal experience for everyone. Everyone is going to deal with it on different levels, but you were just saying bluntly as if it was truth when you really can't speak for everyone. I'm not attacking you or anything, I'm just trying to get reason on both sides.

[Glenn.]

I think that is down to the high sensitivity of this subject. Don't forget some people here have had first hand experience in having people they know commit suicide. It's definitely an area that you need to respond to with a careful selection of words and emotions.

So have I. Its something that doesn't get discussed enough in the world. It is a terrible thing for someone to kill themselves to feel they have no way out, but like I have said and Pyramid has said, its a selfish act to pursuit.

It's all well and good for people to discuss the well being of the person killing themselves, but what about the poor souls that get left behind that have to deal with the consequences of their actions.

That's all I was saying. I honestly don't care who I offend. Just because someone finds it upsetting it doesn't mean I'm going to turn my back on my beliefs and stay quiet. Like I said, I have the right of Freedom of Speech and can say what I like. Even if it is politically correct.

[Ammi]

I get Glenn's point about it being a selfish act... this man has been so tortured by the suicide of his son that it has driven him to suicide. I would never call him selfish. This was a man who clearly loved his son to the ends of the earth and back. But it is selfish to do that to his wife, someone who also had to deal with the suicide of her son. What does she have left? It's horrible. I hope she's coping but I somehow don't think she can be coping very well. So I think that's why suicide is selfish, because the person committing it hasn't really thought about what their loved ones will go through when they're gone. This case is particularly useful for highlighting that because it's a suicide in response to a suicide. The son's suicide ended up driving the dad to suicide. That's a powerful image, and I think people need to think about that when they talk about this...

..yes, I'm actually going to think about this one for a bit...if someone was suffering extreme pain, physical pain..and they put an end to that pain, my instinct would be compassion..and then there's euthanasia which I've heard tagged with phrases like 'put them out of their misery'
.....physical/emotional pain....hmmm..I think emotional suffering is less 'black and white'...by the very definition, it is emotional...it is interesting

[Ammi]

...afterthought
This isn't a black/white..right/wrong thing imo
....euthanasia/suicide/abortion...I don't think there is any other topic more emotional than life/death and for some there is personal experience thrown into the mix...this type of story will always evoke strong opinion

...I think in these highly emotive topics, people concentrate on one response only (in reply to their own post)...and they're quite quick moving too, so I know that I'm sometimes 'blind' to the content of everyone's else's post.........if you did feel 'ganged up' on Glenn, I apologise if I contributed to that in any way
...there is nothing more guaranteed to heat the blood than a life/death topic......well maybe Lady Gaga......or Rhianna

[Angus]

Anyone who makes excuses about how suicide is right is ridiculous.


Wow, another sweeping generalisation presented as a fact with no mitigating reasons or circumstances. For starters most people not agreeing with your black and white opinion are not condoning suicide. They are saying they can understand why some can see it as the only way out of their misery and suffering. Some commit suicide on an impulse, others plan it meticulously, either way the balance of their minds are massively disturbed. Are all mentally ill people, therefore, also selfish because they have no awareness of how their actions impact on those around them?

As for this poor guy's family and friends, if they could see and understand the depths of his despair and depression , were they not being selfish and uncaring by not getting him the help he so obviously needed? Everyone copes with stress very differently, and perhaps his wife was emotionally stronger and able to deal with it better, who knows. That doesn't make this poor man selfish at all - he was just incapable of coping with his pain. If we are going to talk about bullying, how about the attitudes on this thread against a guy who was driven by despair to kill himself? He is now being labelled as selfish and inconsiderate by people who have not a single clue about what sort of pain and distress HE went through before arriving at the awful decision to kill himself.

There is no universal panacea for all ills. We each of us have to find our own way to deal with grief and loss. Some cope way better than others. Sometimes it is a lifetime struggle - not everyone is able to deal with that. Who am I to judge them?

[Angus]

Maybe. But I didn't know you got the gas chamber for being detached.



We are human beings who respond to emotive subjects emotionally. No-one can rationalise suicide or what leads some to consider it the only option left to them. One can only try and empathise with the utter despair this poor guy felt and a few of us commenting on this thread have maybe experienced it personally. The fact we are still here says more about our coping mechanisms than about whether we are intrinsically selfish or not.

[Ammi]

We are human beings who respond to emotive subjects emotionally. No-one can rationalise suicide or what leads some to consider it the only option left to them. One can only try and empathise with the utter despair this poor guy felt and a few of us commenting on this thread have maybe experienced it personally. The fact we are still here says more about our coping mechanisms than about whether we are intrinsically selfish or not.

...I couldn't agree more Angus...and evryone is capable of losing those skills....no matter how 'together' they think they are

[CharlieO]

Everyone is naturally responsible for themselves foremost.

I think it would be far more selfish for someone to be guilted into living through mental torture just because their suicide could cause hurt for another. Yes the wife will be hurt but if the action was truly the best thing for the father (as it probably was) she should be at peace that he is in a better place.
Yes it will hurt for her but it would be selfish of her to ask the husband to just stay alive and live through tremendous, never ending pain for her.

[Pyramid*]

Wow, another sweeping generalisation presented as a fact with no mitigating reasons or circumstances. For starters most people not agreeing with your black and white opinion are not condoning suicide. They are saying they can understand why some can see it as the only way out of their misery and suffering. Some commit suicide on an impulse, others plan it meticulously, either way the balance of their minds are massively disturbed. Are all mentally ill people, therefore, also selfish because they have no awareness of how their actions impact on those around them?

As for this poor guy's family and friends, if they could see and understand the depths of his despair and depression , were they not being selfish and uncaring by not getting him the help he so obviously needed? Everyone copes with stress very differently, and perhaps his wife was emotionally stronger and able to deal with it better, who knows. That doesn't make this poor man selfish at all - he was just incapable of coping with his pain. If we are going to talk about bullying, how about the attitudes on this thread against a guy who was driven by despair to kill himself? He is now being labelled as selfish and inconsiderate by people who have not a single clue about what sort of pain and distress HE went through before arriving at the awful decision to kill himself.

There is no universal panacea for all ills. We each of us have to find our own way to deal with grief and loss. Some cope way better than others. Sometimes it is a lifetime struggle - not everyone is able to deal with that. Who am I to judge them?


Few points in your post I'd like to address :

were they not being selfish and uncaring by not getting him the help he so obviously needed

You (like the rest of us) have no idea what help or support he was given by these people, yet you are now being prepared to consider placing some if not all blame, at their door for this man chosing suicide. You are judging those others in the man's life and questioning if THEY were the selfish ones - when you know little about them or the man himself.

2nd part in bold


He is now being labelled as selfish and inconsiderate by people who have not a single clue about what sort of pain and distress HE went through before arriving at the awful decision to kill himself.


People have said on here time and time again: his decision to kill himself was a selfish and inconsiderate act - I believce it was selfish and inconsiderate. You might not agree with that, but the fact remains: the act and the effect is one in which if not selfish, if not inconsiderate: (regardless of his state of mind) - is apparent. Should he put the feelings of others over his own feelings: that's entirely a different debate. The fact remains: he chose his own feelings over those of others. Is that right or wrong? I can't say - I can however have the view that it is a selfish act, leaving others with the burden. Some may say he made the choice to remove himself from the pain: fine - that I understand. I also say that in doing so: he made the decision to ADD to the pain that he was aware of how it felt, and acted, knowing the impact that has on a person - knowing that he will add even more pain to the survivor. I cannot see how anyone cannot understand why some on here regard that as a selfish act.

Again. you are judging others on here for having a right to their own opinion. You might not agree with it, you may not like it, but it's a bit rich Angus when you use the words toward others here ''by people who have not a single clue ....''..... you don't have any special powers to allow you to make that judgement towards others on here, you have no more insight into how that poor man felt than any of us on here do: irrespective of which side of the argument you stand for.

The last part in bold.


Who am I to judge? .

I pose this very question to you: because you ask that question as though it absolves you of any need to question or judge someone elses actions - yet you have shown you are judging others - people on here, the man's family and friends.

We are all judging one way or another: - you yourself in your own post have offered consideration to judging the man's family/friends as possibly being selfish in not getting him enough help.

You are judging others on here who don't agree with your view - yet for some twisted reasoning: you dont' think some posters on here are allowed to make their own different judgements - in the same way that you yourself ARE indeed judging those same posters. That smacks of 'one rule for me, another rule for you'.