The Church 'is on the brink of extinction'

[arista]

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2013/11/18/271378/default/v1/mail-1-329x437.jpg

Utter Bliss


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/11/18/article-2509379-07C6C490000005DC-775_306x452.jpg
[We ought to be ashamed: Reverend Dr George Carey
said the Church had failed to invest in younger
generations and now risked extinction]

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2509379/Church-brink-extinction-Ex-Archbishop-George-Carey-warns-Christianity-crisis.html#ixzz2l4xfsx7N


No I am Happy.

[Kazanne]

I'm not,I love old churches,they have a certain atmosphere and I like looking round them and finding out their history.

[Verbal]

Organised religion has been under threat of extinction for hundreds of years. Nothing new.

[Marc]

Don't the Church of England own more land than anybody else?

[King Gizzard]

The church as most people know it maybe. But not the religion itself and more modern forms of churches, no way

[Cherie]

Its in The Mail :suspect: I thought nobody took any notice of them.

[Nedusa]

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2013/11/18/271378/default/v1/mail-1-329x437.jpg

Utter Bliss


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/11/18/article-2509379-07C6C490000005DC-775_306x452.jpg
[We ought to be ashamed: Reverend Dr George Carey
said the Church had failed to invest in younger
generations and now risked extinction]

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2509379/Church-brink-extinction-Ex-Archbishop-George-Carey-warns-Christianity-crisis.html#ixzz2l4xfsx7N


No I am Happy.

We can only but hope...............!!!!

[Jesus.]

Don't the Church of England own more land than anybody else?

The catholic church is the biggest property/land owner in the world.

[arista]

I'm not,I love old churches,they have a certain atmosphere and I like looking round them and finding out their history.



Yes make them into Devil Disco's

[Niamh.]

Yes make them into Devil Disco's

:laugh2:

[Livia]

I expect even the most cynical of you will be enjoying the Christmas break, though.

I can't understand the glee some people feel over stories like this. Non-believers can be so aggressive... it's kind of sad.

[Jesus.]

I expect even the most cynical of you will be enjoying the Christmas break, though.

I can't understand the glee some people feel over stories like this. Non-believers can be so aggressive... it's kind of sad.

To be fair - non believers didn't really start this s**t. Christmas is also primarily a pagan festival co-opted by the church. Atheism is still very young, and in the process of asserting itself. The last witch was burned in the UK in the 1790's, so I think religious people perhaps need to take things like that into consideration when attacking people happy to see the church fall on hard times.

That's why Judaism is so chilled out, and Islam is like an angry little brother trying to fight it's way up the pecking order.

[Niamh.]

I expect even the most cynical of you will be enjoying the Christmas break, though.

I can't understand the glee some people feel over stories like this. Non-believers can be so aggressive... it's kind of sad.

The Christmas break is a holiday stolen from pagans, i don't think you have to be religious to enjoy time off work and celebrating your family and the joy of giving to eachother and spending time with eachother. People who don't believe in God are allowed to enjoy breaks as well, stolen or not (as the christians originally stole it)

[Livia]

To be fair - non believers didn't really start this s**t. Christmas is also primarily a pagan festival co-opted by the church. Atheism is still very young, and in the process of asserting itself. The last witch was burned in the UK in the 1790's, so I think religious people perhaps need to take things like that into consideration when attacking people happy to see the church fall on hard times.

That's why Judaism is so chilled out, and Islam is like an angry little brother trying to fight it's way up the pecking order.

It hasn't been a pagan festival for hundreds of years... You're surely not suggesting that non-believers are celebrating the ancient ritual? Don't see many people out making bonfires on 21st December... or adhering to any other pagan rites. They're worshiping mostly at the alter of consumerism, picking and choosing the bits of the Christian festival that they like most. The presents, the carols... the schmaltz. It seems a little disingenuous for those same people to be celebrating the reported and of Christianity.

You seem to be suggesting that Christians deserve to be ridiculed and chastised because they once burned witches. That's not your serious suggestion, surely. And on that point, I'm not sure witches were burned in the UK, I think they were mostly hanged... but that's a whole other discussion.

All I'm saying is, if you're an atheist, good luck to you, that's your affair.. But don't make it your mission to prove people of faith wrong. No one can prove what faith is... that's why it's called faith. Perhaps just allow people to express their faith freely without all the iconoclasts turning out to knock them down.

[Kyle]

It hasn't been a pagan festival for hundreds of years... You're surely not suggesting that non-believers are celebrating the ancient ritual? Don't see many people out making bonfires on 21st December... or adhering to any other pagan rites. They're worshiping mostly at the alter of consumerism, picking and choosing the bits of the Christian festival that they like most. The presents, the carols... the schmaltz. It seems a little disingenuous for those same people to be celebrating the reported and of Christianity.

You seem to be suggesting that Christians deserve to be ridiculed and chastised because they once burned witches. That's not your serious suggestion, surely. And on that point, I'm not sure witches were burned in the UK, I think they were mostly hanged... but that's a whole other discussion.

All I'm saying is, if you're an atheist, good luck to you, that's your affair.. But don't make it your mission to prove people of faith wrong. No one can prove what faith is... that's why it's called faith. Perhaps just allow people to express their faith freely without all the iconoclasts turning out to knock them down.

Nobody on this thread has made it their mission to prove people of faith wrong.

But on the other hand I will take delight in this because I don't particularly have a high opinion of organised religion.

[Livia]

The Christmas break is a holiday stolen from pagans, i don't think you have to be religious to enjoy time off work and celebrating your family and the joy of giving to eachother and spending time with eachother. People who don't believe in God are allowed to enjoy breaks as well, stolen or not (as the christians originally stole it)

But you're not a pagan, Niamh... unless you're celebrating the holiday on 21st December, and also celebrating Samhain and Beltane and Imbolc and all the other pagan festivals.

I'm not saying people shouldn't enjoy Christmas. I'm not a Christian and I enjoy it. I'm saying there's a little too much glee from some people whenever Christianity's knocked, but they'll be celebrating Christmas.

[Livia]

Nobody on this thread has made it their mission to prove people of faith wrong.

But on the other hand I will take delight in this because I don't particularly have a high opinion of organised religion.

With respect, my post wasn't to you, it was to Jesus. He's my friend and we have crossed swords over this issue many times before, so I'm sure you have no idea what anyone's mission is or was.

[Niamh.]

But you're not a pagan, Niamh... unless you're celebrating the holiday on 21st December, and also celebrating Samhain and Beltane and Imbolc and all the other pagan festivals.

I'm not saying people shouldn't enjoy Christmas. I'm not a Christian and I enjoy it. I'm saying there's a little too much glee from some people whenever Christianity's knocked, but they'll be celebrating Christmas.

I never said I was a Pagan Livia, I said the Christians stole the holiday from the pagans so why i can't I steal that time for myself and my family and adapt it how I want to, just like they did?

[arista]

Death to the Church


Utter Bliss

[Kyle]

With respect, my post wasn't to you, it was to Jesus. He's my friend and we have crossed swords over this issue many times before, so I'm sure you have no idea what anyone's mission is or was.

Alright then I'll just leave this thread for you both to have your little private religious battle.

[Jesus.]

It hasn't been a pagan festival for hundreds of years... You're surely not suggesting that non-believers are celebrating the ancient ritual? Don't see many people out making bonfires on 21st December... or adhering to any other pagan rites. They're worshiping mostly at the alter of consumerism, picking and choosing the bits of the Christian festival that they like most. The presents, the carols... the schmaltz. It seems a little disingenuous for those same people to be celebrating the reported and of Christianity.

You seem to be suggesting that Christians deserve to be ridiculed and chastised because they once burned witches. That's not your serious suggestion, surely. And on that point, I'm not sure witches were burned in the UK, I think they were mostly hanged... but that's a whole other discussion.

All I'm saying is, if you're an atheist, good luck to you, that's your affair.. But don't make it your mission to prove people of faith wrong. No one can prove what faith is... that's why it's called faith. Perhaps just allow people to express their faith freely without all the iconoclasts turning out to knock them down.

The current incarnation of the festival seems a bit moot. Unless it was a Pagan festival to begin with, then we have no idea what Christmas or the accompanying paraphernalia would resemble, and whether there would even be a celebration for the baby Jesus at all. I think if you took the Jesus birth myth out of Christmas, then most people wouldn't even notice.

I'm neither suggesting, or ridiculing Christians myself, by saying that the history of religious abuse stretches long and far, and through times where even to say you doubted the existence of god would end in torture at best. So the fact that we're even in a position to discuss the issues is a secular triumph. I don't think Christians/Abrahamic religious people should be too surprised when people are happy to see the power of the church dwindling. As long as we are a Christian country, with representatives in the HOL, then they are up there to be shot at.

I'm not a fan of religion (as you know), but I'm more of a fan of expression and free speech. The further religion is moved out of the public sphere, the better for everyone, but I have no desire to see religion stamped out at all. It should be a really personal thing, and I also have no issues with having public churches, mosques, synagogues, or temples. Just not at the expense of the taxpayer.

People can do what they like as far as I'm concerned, but time is not a significant factor in working out whether opinions and views are worthy.

[Livia]

Alright then I'll just leave this thread for you both to have your little private religious battle.

You said: "Nobody on this thread has made it their mission to prove people of faith wrong." which was rather a sweeping statement seeing that my comments were to Jesus, and we have a previous history of these discussions. There's no need for immaturity.

[Nedusa]

I'm surprised we are even allowed to call it Christmas anymore, Christmas has been sacrificed upon the alter of Political correctness and now it is called Winterval and the cards we send out are now called Holiday cards.

In fact the term "Happy Holidays" is now very prevalent. I'm surprised there isn't a Christian backlash as the last time I checked (I could be wrong) Great Britain was a Christian country with the Churches of England/Scotland/Ireland & Wales.

We seem to bend over backwards to accommodate other minority religions but allow the dilution of the official Christian faith in the process.

I would like to see Christmas celebrated as Christmas with the return of Christmas cards showing Baby Jesus, Joseph and Mary not some watered down snowscape with a few bits of holly and a yulelog......!!!!!

[Livia]

The current incarnation of the festival seems a bit moot. Unless it was a Pagan festival to begin with, then we have no idea what Christmas or the accompanying paraphernalia would resemble, and whether there would even be a celebration for the baby Jesus at all. I think if you took the Jesus birth myth out of Christmas, then most people wouldn't even notice.

I'm neither suggesting, or ridiculing Christians myself, by saying that the history of religious abuse stretches long and far, and through times where even to say you doubted the existence of god would end in torture at best. So the fact that we're even in a position to discuss the issues is a secular triumph. I don't think Christians/Abrahamic religious people should be too surprised when people are happy to see the power of the church dwindling. As long as we are a Christian country, with representatives in the HOL, then they are up there to be shot at.

I'm not a fan of religion (as you know), but I'm more of a fan of expression and free speech. The further religion is moved out of the public sphere, the better for everyone, but I have no desire to see religion stamped out at all. It should be a really personal thing, and I also have no issues with having public churches, mosques, synagogues, or temples. Just not at the expense of the taxpayer.

People can do what they like as far as I'm concerned, but time is not a significant factor in working out whether opinions and views are worthy.


I reckon if you took every Christian element out of Christmas, people would notice. For a start, you'd have to change the name.

Christianity is an easy target, I think. Look at how Christians are treated in the UK, seeing that it is a "Christian country". White, middle-class people are terrified of upsetting other religions and Christians bear the brunt of that, in my opinion. And at a report of the church crumbling, people are on here saying how pleased they are about it. If you're going to rejoice in the demise of Christianity, then take time off work to celebrate Christmas, I think that's a little cynical. [When I say 'you' I don't mean you personally].

[Niamh.]

We could just change the name to Xmas :pipe:

[Livia]

We could just change the name to Xmas :pipe:

Stop making trouble Niamh, or I'll come over there...

[Niamh.]

Stop making trouble Niamh, or I'll come over there...

..for Xmas dinner? No problem :love:

[GiRTh]

Xmas sounds good to me.

[Jesus.]

I reckon if you took every Christian element out of Christmas, people would notice. For a start, you'd have to change the name.

Christianity is an easy target, I think. Look at how Christians are treated in the UK, seeing that it is a "Christian country". White, middle-class people are terrified of upsetting other religions and Christians bear the brunt of that, in my opinion. And at a report of the church crumbling, people are on here saying how pleased they are about it. If you're going to rejoice in the demise of Christianity, then take time off work to celebrate Christmas, I think that's a little cynical. [When I say 'you' I don't mean you personally].

I do agree in that Christians are the easiest target. There is a reason people don't attack Islam quite so publicly, and whether any of us like it or not, the public fight against Islam (as an example) has been taken over by the far right and no one wants to be associated with that either. We're too ignorant of Sikhs and Hindus, and most people actually believe that the big fat man sitting on a cushion is the Buddha. Most of us attended dreary assemblies with monotone hymns about spirits, love, and Jesus. It's what we know - it's always easier to mock an old friend than a stranger. And the CoE still gets a say when it comes to legislating the country. Pay tax, and don't expect your opinions to be taken more seriously because you believe in the supernatural. That's all I ask.

More children would know who Santa Claus over Jesus.

[King Gizzard]

I reckon if you took every Christian element out of Christmas, people would notice. For a start, you'd have to change the name.

Christianity is an easy target, I think. Look at how Christians are treated in the UK, seeing that it is a "Christian country". White, middle-class people are terrified of upsetting other religions and Christians bear the brunt of that, in my opinion. And at a report of the church crumbling, people are on here saying how pleased they are about it. If you're going to rejoice in the demise of Christianity, then take time off work to celebrate Christmas, I think that's a little cynical. [When I say 'you' I don't mean you personally].

Would definitely agree with just about all of this, and whether or not it was stolen from pagan tradition we still celebrate Christmas because of Christianity/Saint Nicholas, not Pagan religion

[Jesus.]

Lets go the whole hog and have triple xmas.

http://i.imgur.com/JEdnv05.jpg

[MTVN]

Well I guess Christmas as we know it has lots of different roots which are just as much cultural as religious, a lot of the celebrations have always been quite secular in a way, all the eating and drinking and extravagance is part of the reason it used to be the more godly sort who frowned on it so much

[cheeky_monkey]

Its in The Mail :suspect: I thought nobody took any notice of them.

I take no notice of The daily fail. :)

[Kizzy]

Witches were drowned..They said at the time 'Yule be sorry'..... *Maniacal laughter*

[arista]

Witches were drowned..They said at the time 'Yule be sorry'..... *Maniacal laughter*


Yes Evil Church.

[Kizzy]

Whatever you choose to put your 'faith' modern life has very little to do with the trappings of church for many.
Maybe too the likes of 'reverend' Flowers and the frequent exposures of the dark side of Catholicism make it hard for some to see the benefit?

[Stu]

I love celebrating the pagan bits :idc:.

[arista]

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/5717/1708/320/happy_yule.jpg

[Niall]

Given the often backwards and intolerant nature of the Church, I can't say I sympathise with them. Hopefully it'll push them in the right direction of modernisation, and to re-think the issues with which they are deeply misguided. Organised religion nearly always tends to be rather toxic anyway..

[Kizzy]

Blessed be!

[Kazanne]

I find churches quite comforting and peaceful.i don't get caught up in all the religious hoo ha,I have my belief which I don't force on others, so for me a church is a place to reflect and think.

[joeysteele]

I reckon if you took every Christian element out of Christmas, people would notice. For a start, you'd have to change the name.

Christianity is an easy target, I think. Look at how Christians are treated in the UK, seeing that it is a "Christian country". White, middle-class people are terrified of upsetting other religions and Christians bear the brunt of that, in my opinion. And at a report of the church crumbling, people are on here saying how pleased they are about it. If you're going to rejoice in the demise of Christianity, then take time off work to celebrate Christmas, I think that's a little cynical. [When I say 'you' I don't mean you personally].

I totally agree with this and as ever I am full of admiration and respect for your views on this which are as ever, well balanced.

[the truth]

It hasn't been a pagan festival for hundreds of years... You're surely not suggesting that non-believers are celebrating the ancient ritual? Don't see many people out making bonfires on 21st December... or adhering to any other pagan rites. They're worshiping mostly at the alter of consumerism, picking and choosing the bits of the Christian festival that they like most. The presents, the carols... the schmaltz. It seems a little disingenuous for those same people to be celebrating the reported and of Christianity.

You seem to be suggesting that Christians deserve to be ridiculed and chastised because they once burned witches. That's not your serious suggestion, surely. And on that point, I'm not sure witches were burned in the UK, I think they were mostly hanged... but that's a whole other discussion.

All I'm saying is, if you're an atheist, good luck to you, that's your affair.. But don't make it your mission to prove people of faith wrong. No one can prove what faith is... that's why it's called faith. Perhaps just allow people to express their faith freely without all the iconoclasts turning out to knock them down.

I 100% agree, brilliantly put and totally true

[the truth]

Blessed be!

The great aneurin bevan who gave us the NHS and built 1 million social houses was a devout Christian as are so many other wonderful people... The Christian church feeds, clothes and saves millions of people worldwide. sadly all this is ignored in favour of a miniscule amount of perverts in the Church, a same level of perversion we see in every organization in the world. The good the Church does outweighs the bad by a zillion to one. The atheists can burn every Church down and celebrate their hatred. But the Christian beliefs will still live on in the hearts and minds of the billions of Christians

[Kizzy]

I don't see anyone rejoicing in it but it's understandable how it's happened, there will always be Christians, but maybe Christianity just won't be the multi million pound organisation it was?

[the truth]

I don't see anyone rejoicing in it but it's understandable how it's happened, there will always be Christians, but maybe Christianity just won't be the multi million pound organisation it was?

Look at the world, most organizations need money....these wonderful buildings don't pay for themselves neither does missionary work....But ultimately the beliefs will ensure it rises again against the current mindless self defeating cowardice of Christian bashing

[Stu]

Read in Christian Bale's Batman voice it makes for quite the experience.

[Kizzy]

Nobody was christian bashing though? Everyone is entitled to their view if that's atheist, agnostic or pagan.
Don't worry there's always the jam and jerusalem brigade from middle England, onward christian soldiers.....

[the truth]

Read in Christian Bale's Batman voice it makes for quite the experience.

another non-contribution:sleep:

[user104658]

I struggle with this... I know a couple of devout Christians and thwyre very nice, kind, generous people and they get a lot out of the church and the community that surrounds it, a lot of strength and support in tough times, which can only be a good thing.

However, trying to take organised reliion seriously is almost impossible. It's quite clearly ridiculous. They not only sound like fairytales but also it's very obvious (and understandable) WHY they exist (fear of death, fear of loss, fear of the unknown, a sense of belonging), which makes them even less believable, IMO.

It's like trying to keep a straight face whilst someone tells you in all sincerity that their best friend is Spiderman.

But each to their own... I suppose... so long as they're not hurting anyone (another debate, and certainly not all or even the majority of "believers" do harm) then each to their own. I personally find the whole concept as mad as a bag of frogs. And it's certainly not a "national disgrace" that the churches are seeing less attendance and support. Gone are the day's when "faith" was enforced through government, thankfully, and so keeping their flock is entirely their own responsibility. People aren't interested. It's as simple as that.


Side note on Christmas: it's true that it hasn't been a pagan festival for hundreds of years. But I'm afraid it also hasn't been a Christian one for at least three decades. You can't willingly accept the former whilst denying that the latter is also perfectly valid.

[Niamh.]

Great post Toy Soldier, that's pretty much exactly my thoughts on the whole thing as well. It must be nice sometimes though to really believe in it all so much. My daughters grandmother recently died of a brain tumor and she was very religious, it was a great comfort to her when she was dying, she really believed she was going to heaven which must have been comforting to her family as well to see that she wasn't afraid

[Kizzy]

You can have that level of faith in christianity/god without the conflicting views of the church of England/ catholicism though.
The King James bible was written to control the masses, it's not working anymore.

[Livia]

I struggle with this... I know a couple of devout Christians and thwyre very nice, kind, generous people and they get a lot out of the church and the community that surrounds it, a lot of strength and support in tough times, which can only be a good thing.

However, trying to take organised reliion seriously is almost impossible. It's quite clearly ridiculous. They not only sound like fairytales but also it's very obvious (and understandable) WHY they exist (fear of death, fear of loss, fear of the unknown, a sense of belonging), which makes them even less believable, IMO.

It's like trying to keep a straight face whilst someone tells you in all sincerity that their best friend is Spiderman.

But each to their own... I suppose... so long as they're not hurting anyone (another debate, and certainly not all or even the majority of "believers" do harm) then each to their own. I personally find the whole concept as mad as a bag of frogs. And it's certainly not a "national disgrace" that the churches are seeing less attendance and support. Gone are the day's when "faith" was enforced through government, thankfully, and so keeping their flock is entirely their own responsibility. People aren't interested. It's as simple as that.


Side note on Christmas: it's true that it hasn't been a pagan festival for hundreds of years. But I'm afraid it also hasn't been a Christian one for at least three decades. You can't willingly accept the former whilst denying that the latter is also perfectly valid.

Because taking organised religion seriously is impossible for you, that doesn't mean that the faith of religious people is wrong. Comparing God to Spiderman is typical of the smart-arse, athiestic ridicule that non-believers think they have a right to throw at people of faith.

If you have no faith, that's your thing. I'm not going to laugh at you and I'm certainly not going to try to convert you... I respect your belief. And yet, you feel free, more than that, you feel entitled to laugh at me?

I also feel quite insulted when non-believers sum up faith by saying that people follow a religion because of "fear of death, fear of loss, fear of the unknown, a sense of belonging..." You have no faith, so what would you know about why people are religious? How about if I sum up all non-believers as being too shallow to truly comprehend what faith is? That'd be really insulting and ignorant of me wouldn't it. Yet it's the same thing as you trying to sum up why I am religious without knowing the first thing about either my religion or about me.

I'm not sure how you decided that for three decades, Christmas hasn't been a Christian festival. I think the 2 billion Christians in the world might disagree with you on that point.

[smudgie]

It would be a sad day if all our churches shut down.

I am not a religious person but I love to look at the old churches.
They give small villages a sense of community, somewhere to meet, have a sing song and perhaps discuss how to help some fellow villager out. It is not all about fire and brimstone.
Walking into York Minster gave me goosebumps, such a beautiful place.

As to religion and faith, I personally believe in good rather than god, but I respect anyone's right to their beliefs, just as long as they are peaceful and not thrust upon others.
Live and let live I say.

[arista]

I find churches quite comforting and peaceful.i don't get caught up in all the religious hoo ha,I have my belief which I don't force on others, so for me a church is a place to reflect and think.



Yes as a Disco it will have a Chill Section for you

[Kazanne]

Yes as a Disco it will have a Chill Section for you

Stop it arista,otherwise I might have to incur the wrath of God on you:hugesmile:he IS a bigger force than you.

[Kyle]

Stop it arista,otherwise I might have to incur the wrath of God on you:hugesmile:he IS a bigger force than you.

Which God? :hugesmile:

Zeus? Mars? Hera? Horus? Athena? Dionysius? Heket? Ra? Thor? Acan? Ah Tabai? Gukumatz? Raven?:p

[arista]

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/7/70453/1385120-5cd1b49c564f45f1f0d403f714905d084236bec6.jpg


No its this one From Star Trek 5

[arista]

http://www.dangermouse.net/blog/images/trek/ST5_3.jpg

[Kyle]

That looks like Liam Neeson Arista! :hugesmile: while I wouldn't go so far as to say he is a God I did love his narration on the new Jeff Wayne's War of the Worlds :dance:

[arista]

That looks like Liam Neeson Arista! :hugesmile: while I wouldn't go so far as to say he is a God I did love his narration on the new Jeff Wayne's War of the Worlds :dance:



In Star Trek 5
the God wants to Join with the Ship
Bring it closer he demands



Dirty bugger

[Kazanne]

Which God? :hugesmile:

Zeus? Mars? Hera? Horus? Athena? Dionysius? Heket? Ra? Thor? Acan? Ah Tabai? Gukumatz? Raven?:p

This one http://i581.photobucket.com/albums/ss254/xSupernaturalxx/Gerard%20Butler/butler19.jpg (http://media.photobucket.com/user/xSupernaturalxx/media/Gerard%20Butler/butler19.jpg.html):hugesmile:

[Niamh.]

That looks like Liam Neeson Arista! :hugesmile: while I wouldn't go so far as to say he is a God I did love his narration on the new Jeff Wayne's War of the Worlds :dance:

Have you not seen Taken? :pipe:

[Kyle]

This one http://i581.photobucket.com/albums/ss254/xSupernaturalxx/Gerard%20Butler/butler19.jpg (http://media.photobucket.com/user/xSupernaturalxx/media/Gerard%20Butler/butler19.jpg.html):hugesmile:

Wow I walked into that one lol. :hugesmile:

[Kyle]

Have you not seen Taken? :pipe:

I haven't, I get the feeling it's a must see :pipe:

[Niamh.]

I haven't, I get the feeling it's a must see :pipe:

Yes you must, put it on your "to watch" Christmas movie list (not that it's a christmas movies but you know what I mean) you won't regret it

[Kyle]

Yes you must, put it on your "to watch" Christmas movie list (not that it's a christmas movies but you know what I mean) you won't regret it

I don't want to take this thread any further than it already is off the beaten path but I just looked on amazon the blu-Ray is only 7 quid. Think I'll 'take' that :hugesmile:

[Niamh.]

I don't want to take this thread any further than it already is off the beaten path but I just looked on amazon the blu-Ray is only 7 quid. Think I'll 'take' that :hugesmile:

Good move :love:

[smudgie]

This one http://i581.photobucket.com/albums/ss254/xSupernaturalxx/Gerard%20Butler/butler19.jpg (http://media.photobucket.com/user/xSupernaturalxx/media/Gerard%20Butler/butler19.jpg.html):hugesmile:

Phwooooar.
As the songs says "well I saw his face..now I'm a believer.:dance:


(I do know the song is actually her face.:joker:)

[Jesus.]

Because taking organised religion seriously is impossible for you, that doesn't mean that the faith of religious people is wrong. Comparing God to Spiderman is typical of the smart-arse, athiestic ridicule that non-believers think they have a right to throw at people of faith.

If you have no faith, that's your thing. I'm not going to laugh at you and I'm certainly not going to try to convert you... I respect your belief. And yet, you feel free, more than that, you feel entitled to laugh at me?

I also feel quite insulted when non-believers sum up faith by saying that people follow a religion because of "fear of death, fear of loss, fear of the unknown, a sense of belonging..." You have no faith, so what would you know about why people are religious? How about if I sum up all non-believers as being too shallow to truly comprehend what faith is? That'd be really insulting and ignorant of me wouldn't it. Yet it's the same thing as you trying to sum up why I am religious without knowing the first thing about either my religion or about me.

I'm not sure how you decided that for three decades, Christmas hasn't been a Christian festival. I think the 2 billion Christians in the world might disagree with you on that point.


I'm not saying I agree with everything that was said, but the definition of faith is to believe in something for which there is no evidence. To call someone too shallow to have that position (which I know you weren't doing) just wouldn't be an insult, because it's absurd.

Even parts of scripture that may carry truth, still carry more myth along with it. If you read a child some of the stories from the monotheistic books, then there is a huge amount of insanity in there.

To play devils advocate for a second, what is the difference between Samson killing 1000 philistines with the jawbone of a donkey, and spiderman fighting Dr. Octopus?

[Kizzy]

Nevermind the poor philistines what about those edomites?.... wonder why jesus hated them so much?

[Livia]

I'm not saying I agree with everything that was said, but the definition of faith is to believe in something for which there is no evidence. To call someone too shallow to have that position (which I know you weren't doing) just wouldn't be an insult, because it's absurd.

Even parts of scripture that may carry truth, still carry more myth along with it. If you read a child some of the stories from the monotheistic books, then there is a huge amount of insanity in there.

To play devils advocate for a second, what is the difference between Samson killing 1000 philistines with the jawbone of a donkey, and spiderman fighting Dr. Octopus?

Well... for a start, Samson was a warrior and leader who fought against a cruel oppressor... so I imagine he'd be right up your Strasse. Is it all true, or open to interpretation as stories often are? It's up to the individual to struggle with that question and everyone's interpretation will differ.

Spiderman is a comic book character made up by Stan Lee who, as far as I know, has never claimed to be God.

[the truth]

Given the often backwards and intolerant nature of the Church, I can't say I sympathise with them. Hopefully it'll push them in the right direction of modernisation, and to re-think the issues with which they are deeply misguided. Organised religion nearly always tends to be rather toxic anyway..

The Church is not intolerant, it has beliefs and written scriptures that go back 2 millennia ....But it has compromised and we thankfully see gay people and women bishops now....the positives from the Church are simply enormous as they bring communities together, help feed and clothe the hungry and the charity and missionary work helps millions worldwide:wavey:

[the truth]

You can have that level of faith in christianity/god without the conflicting views of the church of England/ catholicism though.
The King James bible was written to control the masses, it's not working anymore.

Christianity was NOT created to control the masses, if anything it rebels against the monarchies and fights the power

[user104658]

Christianity was NOT created to control the masses, if anything it rebels against the monarchies and fights the power

Ahh come on, even a Christian historian would take issue with this claim, surely? The Roman Empire initially was originally threatened by Christianity, it could see the speed at which the religion was growing, and so it adopted it and used it as a system of control, often through forced conversion. It wasn't created to control the masses (whether you believe in it's "truth" or not) but it certainly HAS been used to that end and has been several times throughout history (Romans, Crusades, colonization of Africa, colonisation of the American continent, etc.). To say otherwise is... well... it's just turning a blind eye to history :conf:.

[the truth]

Ahh come on, even a Christian historian would take issue with this claim, surely? The Roman Empire initially was originally threatened by Christianity, it could see the speed at which the religion was growing, and so it adopted it and used it as a system of control, often through forced conversion. It wasn't created to control the masses (whether you believe in it's "truth" or not) but it certainly HAS been used to that end and has been several times throughout history (Romans, Crusades, colonization of Africa, colonisation of the American continent, etc.). To say otherwise is... well... it's just turning a blind eye to history :conf:.

the monarchy has hijacked anything and everything to maintain its revolting tyranny for 1000s of years....the fact they tried to pervert Christs messages is irrelevant to Christs actual message....Im surprised you allowed the powers that be to befuddle you. It really is simple.

[user104658]

the monarchy has hijacked anything and everything to maintain its revolting tyranny for 1000s of years....the fact they tried to pervert Christs messages is irrelevant to Christs actual message....Im surprised you allowed the powers that be to befuddle you. It really is simple.

The fact that it was hijacked to that end rather than created for that reason isn't really all that important, though... not to an "unbeliever", anyway. The reason it took hold so quickly, and so massively (there was mention of "2 billion Christians" before - an exaggerated figure of course but still, illustrative) is because it was used by Empires (Roman, British, Spanish). Often through threat of violence. Whether you see that as a corruption of an original religious Truth, or simply as a convenient tool used to control primitive minds, is largely irrelevant. The motivations of those spreading the faith en masse was what it was and to deny that is to twist the facts.

[the truth]

The fact that it was hijacked to that end rather than created for that reason isn't really all that important, though... not to an "unbeliever", anyway. The reason it took hold so quickly, and so massively (there was mention of "2 billion Christians" before - an exaggerated figure of course but still, illustrative) is because it was used by Empires (Roman, British, Spanish). Often through threat of violence. Whether you see that as a corruption of an original religious Truth, or simply as a convenient tool used to control primitive minds, is largely irrelevant. The motivations of those spreading the faith en masse was what it was and to deny that is to twist the facts.

I 100% disagree entirely. The word of Christ is all that matters. The fact a bunch of empire building mass murdering monarchies who carried out mass murder, torture, starvation, death camps, rapists and psychos use and pervert and corrupted everything, including their version fo patriotism, they perverted versions of religion, just as they corrupt the concept of democracy , science , sociology and many other facets of society ...doesn't make these subjects any less valid. Should we scrap science because of the atomic bomb? should we scrap democracy because democratic nations allowed evil scum like stalin, hitler , Mussolini to rise to power? no. we work with what weve got.....we learn from the mistakes, we try to capture the evil doers and punish them and we attempt to rewards the just, the smart and the hard working....does life always work out perfectly ? no. but that doesn't mean you throw out the baby with the bathwater and certainly not throw out the timeless lessons of Christ

[Livia]

The fact that it was hijacked to that end rather than created for that reason isn't really all that important, though... not to an "unbeliever", anyway. The reason it took hold so quickly, and so massively (there was mention of "2 billion Christians" before - an exaggerated figure of course but still, illustrative) is because it was used by Empires (Roman, British, Spanish). Often through threat of violence. Whether you see that as a corruption of an original religious Truth, or simply as a convenient tool used to control primitive minds, is largely irrelevant. The motivations of those spreading the faith en masse was what it was and to deny that is to twist the facts.

"Christianity is the world's biggest religion, with about 2.1 billion followers worldwide. It is based on the teachings of Jesus Christ who lived in the Holy Land 2,000 years ago."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/

Just one link... there's plenty of other reliable sites giving the same number if you don't trust the BBC.

[user104658]

"Christianity is the world's biggest religion, with about 2.1 billion followers worldwide. It is based on the teachings of Jesus Christ who lived in the Holy Land 2,000 years ago."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/

Just one link... there's plenty of other reliable sites giving the same number if you don't trust the BBC.

2.1 billion people officially considered Christian does not equate to 2.1 billion Christians. For example, I was christened Church of Scotland, as were most of my friends, and we are all included in that 2.1 billion Christians. But like I said I only have two or three friends who are accurately "Christians". The truth is, a large proportion of that 2.1 billion Christians are either non-religious or practice religious apathety - they vaguely believe in God, but have never even glanced at a bible and know very little about "their religion". Considering these people to be "Christians" is doctoring the figures on a massive scale.

[user104658]

I 100% disagree entirely. The word of Christ is all that matters. The fact a bunch of empire building mass murdering monarchies who carried out mass murder, torture, starvation, death camps, rapists and psychos use and pervert and corrupted everything, including their version fo patriotism, they perverted versions of religion, just as they corrupt the concept of democracy , science , sociology and many other facets of society ...doesn't make these subjects any less valid. Should we scrap science because of the atomic bomb? should we scrap democracy because democratic nations allowed evil scum like stalin, hitler , Mussolini to rise to power? no. we work with what weve got.....we learn from the mistakes, we try to capture the evil doers and punish them and we attempt to rewards the just, the smart and the hard working....does life always work out perfectly ? no. but that doesn't mean you throw out the baby with the bathwater and certainly not throw out the timeless lessons of Christ

I'm not saying there aren't good messages in the bible or lesons to be learned; in fact, I said in my original post that the (truly) Christians friends that I do have are goodhearted, charitable people who I would say are clearly "better" for their faith. Not only that, I envy them that faith. It centres them, it grounds them, they have a sort of stability and an an immunity to chaos that I would love to experience.

However, I understand too much about the history and politics of organised religion to ever find that. It holds and teaches some wonderful lessons but it doesn't and never has made any sort of reasonable sense. It's a nice dream, in a world of countless nice dreams, but the truth is, it takes either indocrination from birth or traumatic experience to reach that level of belief. I didn't have the former, and I truly hope to never experience the latter.

[Niall]

The Church is not intolerant, it has beliefs and written scriptures that go back 2 millennia ....But it has compromised and we thankfully see gay people and women bishops now....the positives from the Church are simply enormous as they bring communities together, help feed and clothe the hungry and the charity and missionary work helps millions worldwide:wavey:

Coming from a Catholic upbringing I don't agree one bit. Women are still discriminated against at all levels of the clergy, and don't even get me started on how they treat LGBT people (granted Pope Francis made some positive remarks, but it wasn't exactly a firm step forward either). Not to mention the fact that the very same organisation until three years ago, still promoted unprotected sex despite AIDS being a huge issue for a plethora of countries.

So in my opinion, the Church may have come a substantial way, but it hasn't come far enough. There's a hell of a lot more it could stand to do to improve itself.

[the truth]

Coming from a Catholic upbringing I don't agree one bit. Women are still discriminated against at all levels of the clergy, and don't even get me started on how they treat LGBT people (granted Pope Francis made some positive remarks, but it wasn't exactly a firm step forward either). Not to mention the fact that the very same organisation until three years ago, still promoted unprotected sex despite the AIDS being a huge issue for a plethora of countries.

So in my opinion, the Church may have come a substantial way, but it hasn't come far enough. There's a hell of a lot more it could stand to do to improve itself.

Youre a Catholic and I agree with you on these facets of the religion , they need to keep on sorting that out, Im a Methodist so we veer off a little on these matters. I am 100% in favour of women , disabled, black, whatever Bishops, priests etc etc etc I also abhor the promotion of unprotected sex, yet another thing Christ did not teach.

[the truth]

I'm not saying there aren't good messages in the bible or lesons to be learned; in fact, I said in my original post that the (truly) Christians friends that I do have are goodhearted, charitable people who I would say are clearly "better" for their faith. Not only that, I envy them that faith. It centres them, it grounds them, they have a sort of stability and an an immunity to chaos that I would love to experience.

However, I understand too much about the history and politics of organised religion to ever find that. It holds and teaches some wonderful lessons but it doesn't and never has made any sort of reasonable sense. It's a nice dream, in a world of countless nice dreams, but the truth is, it takes either indocrination from birth or traumatic experience to reach that level of belief. I didn't have the former, and I truly hope to never experience the latter.

Im not at that level of unquestioning belief in every word. Nor have I suffered any major trauma or indoctrination nor do I think for a moment the majority of the 2.1 billion Christians have either. I was merely inspired by great people and the Bible and Christ himself.

[T*]

I am an athiest but as much as I like you arista, you can't go around saying things like "Utter bliss"

[the truth]

I am an athiest but as much as I like you arista, you can't go around saying things like "Utter bliss"

I know its a plain unpleasant. Out of curiosity and in the spirit of open mindedness, whats your belief in terms of the world, the universe, death , morality, theology, the scriptures, etc

[Kizzy]

Christianity was NOT created to control the masses, if anything it rebels against the monarchies and fights the power

I didn't say it was... I suggested the KJV version was is all, i'm getting right into theology thanks to this thread.

[the truth]

I didn't say it was... I suggested the KJV version was is all, i'm getting right into theology thanks to this thread.

which bits from the KJV are you referring to?

[Marsh.]

It hasn't been a pagan festival for hundreds of years... You're surely not suggesting that non-believers are celebrating the ancient ritual? Don't see many people out making bonfires on 21st December... or adhering to any other pagan rites. They're worshiping mostly at the alter of consumerism, picking and choosing the bits of the Christian festival that they like most. The presents, the carols... the schmaltz. It seems a little disingenuous for those same people to be celebrating the reported and of Christianity.

You seem to be suggesting that Christians deserve to be ridiculed and chastised because they once burned witches. That's not your serious suggestion, surely. And on that point, I'm not sure witches were burned in the UK, I think they were mostly hanged... but that's a whole other discussion.

All I'm saying is, if you're an atheist, good luck to you, that's your affair.. But don't make it your mission to prove people of faith wrong. No one can prove what faith is... that's why it's called faith. Perhaps just allow people to express their faith freely without all the iconoclasts turning out to knock them down.


Because taking organised religion seriously is impossible for you, that doesn't mean that the faith of religious people is wrong. Comparing God to Spiderman is typical of the smart-arse, athiestic ridicule that non-believers think they have a right to throw at people of faith.

If you have no faith, that's your thing. I'm not going to laugh at you and I'm certainly not going to try to convert you... I respect your belief. And yet, you feel free, more than that, you feel entitled to laugh at me?

I also feel quite insulted when non-believers sum up faith by saying that people follow a religion because of "fear of death, fear of loss, fear of the unknown, a sense of belonging..." You have no faith, so what would you know about why people are religious? How about if I sum up all non-believers as being too shallow to truly comprehend what faith is? That'd be really insulting and ignorant of me wouldn't it. Yet it's the same thing as you trying to sum up why I am religious without knowing the first thing about either my religion or about me.

I'm not sure how you decided that for three decades, Christmas hasn't been a Christian festival. I think the 2 billion Christians in the world might disagree with you on that point.

I'm surprised we are even allowed to call it Christmas anymore, Christmas has been sacrificed upon the alter of Political correctness and now it is called Winterval and the cards we send out are now called Holiday cards.

In fact the term "Happy Holidays" is now very prevalent. I'm surprised there isn't a Christian backlash as the last time I checked (I could be wrong) Great Britain was a Christian country with the Churches of England/Scotland/Ireland & Wales.

We seem to bend over backwards to accommodate other minority religions but allow the dilution of the official Christian faith in the process.

I would like to see Christmas celebrated as Christmas with the return of Christmas cards showing Baby Jesus, Joseph and Mary not some watered down snowscape with a few bits of holly and a yulelog......!!!!!

:worship:

We could just change the name to Xmas :pipe:

Stop making trouble Niamh, or I'll come over there...

..for Xmas dinner? No problem :love:

:laugh:

[Kizzy]

All of it.... It's chopped and shaped to within an inch of it's life. Like you say the monarchy hijacked religion re wrote the bible for their own ends to make the people meek, humble and subserviant.

[MTVN]

But it was also the monarchy who introduced the Bible in English to this country for the first time under Henry VIII

[the truth]

But it was also the monarchy who introduced the Bible in English to this country for the first time under Henry VIII

They also burned down all the churches when a greedy king decided he wanted loads of wives, they also chased down and tortured those who attempted to write a Welsh version....Lovely people....Just the type who Christ preached against. The monarchy have disfigured the meaning of everything, even the unearned "war" medals on the duke of edinburghs chest are an insult to real war heroes

[the truth]

All of it.... It's chopped and shaped to within an inch of it's life. Like you say the monarchy hijacked religion re wrote the bible for their own ends to make the people meek, humble and subserviant.

Ive read various versions of the Bible and online you can get a variety of interpretations....None of it has ever made me or most Christians I know subvervient to the monarchy or the power. Nor has it radicalised anyone I have ever met....Mind you Im a Methodist which is generally considered a less extreme interpretation if you like. But I agree that it can potentially be used as a weapon by the powers that be against the weak minded. The monarchy have never been constrained by Christian morality or human decency. They have simply carried on butchering their way across the globe. revolting people. By the real heart of Christ's teachings are not about subservience , theyre about love, honour, justice, truth and rebelling against the power.

[MTVN]

They also burned down all the churches when a greedy king decided he wanted loads of wives, they also chased down and tortured those who attempted to write a Welsh version....Lovely people....Just the type who Christ preached against. The monarchy have disfigured the meaning of everything, even the unearned "war" medals on the duke of edinburghs chest are an insult to real war heroes

'The monarchy' and it's relation to religion is not a static and unchanging thing, the relationship and attitude towards the church has varied hugely in the last few hundred years. That's my point, that you can't just reduce it down to monarchy hijacking christianity or the bible. Like you might consider Henry VIII to have been completely against christianity, he considered himself the most devoutly religous monarch in Europe who had God's backing in everything he did. He might have closed down monasteries to increase royal power but also because a lot of them were dens of vice and corruption and considered remnants of the papacy's grip on the country which God didn't approve of etc. etc.

Kind of raises the whole point about how open to interpretation Christianity and religion is

[the truth]

'The monarchy' and it's relation to religion is not a static and unchanging thing, the relationship and attitude towards the church has varied hugely in the last few hundred years. That's my point, that you can't just reduce it down to monarchy hijacking christianity or the bible. Like you might consider Henry VIII to have been completely against christianity, he considered himself the most devoutly religous monarch in Europe who had God's backing in everything he did. He might have closed down monasteries to increase royal power but also because a lot of them were dens of vice and corruption and considered remnants of the papacy's grip on the country which God didn't approve of etc. etc.

Kind of raises the whole point about how open to interpretation Christianity and religion is

It raises nothing of the kind. sorry no offence that's just fickle thinking.
The monarchy are scum. They stand for nothing at all.
Their interpretation of Jesus is 100% irrelevant....
Even moreso in this day and age

[MTVN]

It raises nothing of the kind. sorry no offence that's just fickle thinking.
The monarchy are scum. They stand for nothing at all.
Their interpretation of Jesus is 100% irrelevant....
Even moreso in this day and age

Well ok then

[the truth]

On a happier note as Christmas approaches I hope you enjoy this song from the 1980's to get you in the mood.....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShN8UIk5-mw

[Kizzy]

I appreciate that initially the KJV contained all books including the Apocrypha, but took it out in 1885.. why? My guess is it didn't fit with the sensibilities of the time.

[the truth]

I appreciate that initially the KJV contained all books including the Apocrypha, but took it out in 1885.. why? My guess is it didn't fit with the sensibilities of the time.

Thankfully great men like anuerin bevan saw through the pro monarchy revised parts and fought for healthcare and social housing for the poor sick and vulnerable etc

[user104658]

Im not at that level of unquestioning belief in every word. Nor have I suffered any major trauma or indoctrination nor do I think for a moment the majority of the 2.1 billion Christians have either. I was merely inspired by great people and the Bible and Christ himself.

I can understand that but - and I say this without it intending to be insulting or belittling those with faith - can we not be inspired by entirely fictional characters and stories whilst still accepting them as fiction? I know I have been, many times. Furthermore, even assuming some truth in many of the bible stories but no literal truth in the existence of a God / true miracles, are the HUMAN stories of people doing good and great things (in the name of God or otherwise) not just as inspiring without the supernatural element? Are they not even MORE inspiring?

That's something I struggle to get my head around. Is a person doing good, charitable, wonderful things for others just because they feel inclined to do so, and making moral choices to do no harm to others purely through empathy - with no watchful God, no promise of Heaven, no threat of Hell - not more impressive than when a someone does it fully believing that there is a system of reward and punishment at work?

[the truth]

I can understand that but - and I say this without it intending to be insulting or belittling those with faith - can we not be inspired by entirely fictional characters and stories whilst still accepting them as fiction? I know I have been, many times. Furthermore, even assuming some truth in many of the bible stories but no literal truth in the existence of a God / true miracles, are the HUMAN stories of people doing good and great things (in the name of God or otherwise) not just as inspiring without the supernatural element? Are they not even MORE inspiring?

That's something I struggle to get my head around. Is a person doing good, charitable, wonderful things for others just because they feel inclined to do so, and making moral choices to do no harm to others purely through empathy - with no watchful God, no promise of Heaven, no threat of Hell - not more impressive than when a someone does it fully believing that there is a system of reward and punishment at work?

That's just one part of it...why do you choose to throw it all out because there are parts that some believe that you don't? The point isn't just did this or this happen exactly and literally as written, the point is the moral lessons to be learned....The point is that yes some people do believe the literal versions, others take a view its more symbolic, some don't necessarily believe every word, but still take a enormous wisdom from it. I think Christianity is essential , I think its superior to other religions, as far more enlightened. I also think on the whole our society has done well by Christian values. Christianity allows us the opportunity to wrestle with questions of theology, or morality , the meaning of life and beyond. Some way we can do that regardless of the good book. But if we do that, who plays God? Cameron? Obama? The monarchy? The banks? David Beckham?

The Bible is a gift. Do I believe we should follow it slavishly? No. Do I believe it has infinite value to human evolution? Yes. Do I think the life of Jesus, whether its all literal, symbolic, whatever, it is of seismic value. No one man has influenced and inspired the world more to behave in a better more moral and just way. Who had really heard of or dared speak publicly about forgiveness, redemption, enlightenment in the middle east 2000 years ago.

I do not however believe anyone has the right to publicly moralise to others and that goes for all religions and atheists who do it in the UK and online more than religious people. If you want to know about Christ its best to go to Church. However in the end its how we live our lives that counts. I think Christianity gives one a better opportunity to be a moral decent well balanced person. But that doesn't always happen in reality. The best people I know work so hard they don't even have time to go to Church , yet in practice they are better people than some of those who attend Church regularly.

In the end its how one lives ones life.

8:1 Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.
8:2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
8:3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
8:4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
8:5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
8:6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
8:8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
8:9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
8:10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.