[arista]

Utter Bliss



[We ought to be ashamed: Reverend Dr George Carey
said the Church had failed to invest in younger
generations and now risked extinction]

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz2l4xfsx7N


No I am Happy.

[Kazanne]

I'm not,I love old churches,they have a certain atmosphere and I like looking round them and finding out their history.

[Verbal]

Organised religion has been under threat of extinction for hundreds of years. Nothing new.

[Marc]

Don't the Church of England own more land than anybody else?

[King Gizzard]

The church as most people know it maybe. But not the religion itself and more modern forms of churches, no way

[Cherie]

Its in The Mail I thought nobody took any notice of them.

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by arista

Utter Bliss



[We ought to be ashamed: Reverend Dr George Carey
said the Church had failed to invest in younger
generations and now risked extinction]

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz2l4xfsx7N


No I am Happy.

We can only but hope...............!!!!

Originally Posted by Marc

Don't the Church of England own more land than anybody else?

The catholic church is the biggest property/land owner in the world.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

I'm not,I love old churches,they have a certain atmosphere and I like looking round them and finding out their history.

Yes make them into Devil Disco's

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by arista

Yes make them into Devil Disco's

[Livia]

I expect even the most cynical of you will be enjoying the Christmas break, though.

I can't understand the glee some people feel over stories like this. Non-believers can be so aggressive... it's kind of sad.

Originally Posted by Livia

I expect even the most cynical of you will be enjoying the Christmas break, though.

I can't understand the glee some people feel over stories like this. Non-believers can be so aggressive... it's kind of sad.

To be fair - non believers didn't really start this s**t. Christmas is also primarily a pagan festival co-opted by the church. Atheism is still very young, and in the process of asserting itself. The last witch was burned in the UK in the 1790's, so I think religious people perhaps need to take things like that into consideration when attacking people happy to see the church fall on hard times.

That's why Judaism is so chilled out, and Islam is like an angry little brother trying to fight it's way up the pecking order.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

I expect even the most cynical of you will be enjoying the Christmas break, though.

I can't understand the glee some people feel over stories like this. Non-believers can be so aggressive... it's kind of sad.

The Christmas break is a holiday stolen from pagans, i don't think you have to be religious to enjoy time off work and celebrating your family and the joy of giving to eachother and spending time with eachother. People who don't believe in God are allowed to enjoy breaks as well, stolen or not (as the christians originally stole it)

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Jesus.

To be fair - non believers didn't really start this s**t. Christmas is also primarily a pagan festival co-opted by the church. Atheism is still very young, and in the process of asserting itself. The last witch was burned in the UK in the 1790's, so I think religious people perhaps need to take things like that into consideration when attacking people happy to see the church fall on hard times.

That's why Judaism is so chilled out, and Islam is like an angry little brother trying to fight it's way up the pecking order.

It hasn't been a pagan festival for hundreds of years... You're surely not suggesting that non-believers are celebrating the ancient ritual? Don't see many people out making bonfires on 21st December... or adhering to any other pagan rites. They're worshiping mostly at the alter of consumerism, picking and choosing the bits of the Christian festival that they like most. The presents, the carols... the schmaltz. It seems a little disingenuous for those same people to be celebrating the reported and of Christianity.

You seem to be suggesting that Christians deserve to be ridiculed and chastised because they once burned witches. That's not your serious suggestion, surely. And on that point, I'm not sure witches were burned in the UK, I think they were mostly hanged... but that's a whole other discussion.

All I'm saying is, if you're an atheist, good luck to you, that's your affair.. But don't make it your mission to prove people of faith wrong. No one can prove what faith is... that's why it's called faith. Perhaps just allow people to express their faith freely without all the iconoclasts turning out to knock them down.

[Kyle]

Originally Posted by Livia

It hasn't been a pagan festival for hundreds of years... You're surely not suggesting that non-believers are celebrating the ancient ritual? Don't see many people out making bonfires on 21st December... or adhering to any other pagan rites. They're worshiping mostly at the alter of consumerism, picking and choosing the bits of the Christian festival that they like most. The presents, the carols... the schmaltz. It seems a little disingenuous for those same people to be celebrating the reported and of Christianity.

You seem to be suggesting that Christians deserve to be ridiculed and chastised because they once burned witches. That's not your serious suggestion, surely. And on that point, I'm not sure witches were burned in the UK, I think they were mostly hanged... but that's a whole other discussion.

All I'm saying is, if you're an atheist, good luck to you, that's your affair.. But don't make it your mission to prove people of faith wrong. No one can prove what faith is... that's why it's called faith. Perhaps just allow people to express their faith freely without all the iconoclasts turning out to knock them down.

Nobody on this thread has made it their mission to prove people of faith wrong.

But on the other hand I will take delight in this because I don't particularly have a high opinion of organised religion.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

The Christmas break is a holiday stolen from pagans, i don't think you have to be religious to enjoy time off work and celebrating your family and the joy of giving to eachother and spending time with eachother. People who don't believe in God are allowed to enjoy breaks as well, stolen or not (as the christians originally stole it)

But you're not a pagan, Niamh... unless you're celebrating the holiday on 21st December, and also celebrating Samhain and Beltane and Imbolc and all the other pagan festivals.

I'm not saying people shouldn't enjoy Christmas. I'm not a Christian and I enjoy it. I'm saying there's a little too much glee from some people whenever Christianity's knocked, but they'll be celebrating Christmas.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Simple Minds

Nobody on this thread has made it their mission to prove people of faith wrong.

But on the other hand I will take delight in this because I don't particularly have a high opinion of organised religion.

With respect, my post wasn't to you, it was to Jesus. He's my friend and we have crossed swords over this issue many times before, so I'm sure you have no idea what anyone's mission is or was.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

But you're not a pagan, Niamh... unless you're celebrating the holiday on 21st December, and also celebrating Samhain and Beltane and Imbolc and all the other pagan festivals.

I'm not saying people shouldn't enjoy Christmas. I'm not a Christian and I enjoy it. I'm saying there's a little too much glee from some people whenever Christianity's knocked, but they'll be celebrating Christmas.

I never said I was a Pagan Livia, I said the Christians stole the holiday from the pagans so why i can't I steal that time for myself and my family and adapt it how I want to, just like they did?

[arista]

Death to the Church


Utter Bliss

[Kyle]

Originally Posted by Livia

With respect, my post wasn't to you, it was to Jesus. He's my friend and we have crossed swords over this issue many times before, so I'm sure you have no idea what anyone's mission is or was.

Alright then I'll just leave this thread for you both to have your little private religious battle.

Originally Posted by Livia

It hasn't been a pagan festival for hundreds of years... You're surely not suggesting that non-believers are celebrating the ancient ritual? Don't see many people out making bonfires on 21st December... or adhering to any other pagan rites. They're worshiping mostly at the alter of consumerism, picking and choosing the bits of the Christian festival that they like most. The presents, the carols... the schmaltz. It seems a little disingenuous for those same people to be celebrating the reported and of Christianity.

You seem to be suggesting that Christians deserve to be ridiculed and chastised because they once burned witches. That's not your serious suggestion, surely. And on that point, I'm not sure witches were burned in the UK, I think they were mostly hanged... but that's a whole other discussion.

All I'm saying is, if you're an atheist, good luck to you, that's your affair.. But don't make it your mission to prove people of faith wrong. No one can prove what faith is... that's why it's called faith. Perhaps just allow people to express their faith freely without all the iconoclasts turning out to knock them down.

The current incarnation of the festival seems a bit moot. Unless it was a Pagan festival to begin with, then we have no idea what Christmas or the accompanying paraphernalia would resemble, and whether there would even be a celebration for the baby Jesus at all. I think if you took the Jesus birth myth out of Christmas, then most people wouldn't even notice.

I'm neither suggesting, or ridiculing Christians myself, by saying that the history of religious abuse stretches long and far, and through times where even to say you doubted the existence of god would end in torture at best. So the fact that we're even in a position to discuss the issues is a secular triumph. I don't think Christians/Abrahamic religious people should be too surprised when people are happy to see the power of the church dwindling. As long as we are a Christian country, with representatives in the HOL, then they are up there to be shot at.

I'm not a fan of religion (as you know), but I'm more of a fan of expression and free speech. The further religion is moved out of the public sphere, the better for everyone, but I have no desire to see religion stamped out at all. It should be a really personal thing, and I also have no issues with having public churches, mosques, synagogues, or temples. Just not at the expense of the taxpayer.

People can do what they like as far as I'm concerned, but time is not a significant factor in working out whether opinions and views are worthy.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Simple Minds

Alright then I'll just leave this thread for you both to have your little private religious battle.

You said: "Nobody on this thread has made it their mission to prove people of faith wrong." which was rather a sweeping statement seeing that my comments were to Jesus, and we have a previous history of these discussions. There's no need for immaturity.

[Nedusa]

I'm surprised we are even allowed to call it Christmas anymore, Christmas has been sacrificed upon the alter of Political correctness and now it is called Winterval and the cards we send out are now called Holiday cards.

In fact the term "Happy Holidays" is now very prevalent. I'm surprised there isn't a Christian backlash as the last time I checked (I could be wrong) Great Britain was a Christian country with the Churches of England/Scotland/Ireland & Wales.

We seem to bend over backwards to accommodate other minority religions but allow the dilution of the official Christian faith in the process.

I would like to see Christmas celebrated as Christmas with the return of Christmas cards showing Baby Jesus, Joseph and Mary not some watered down snowscape with a few bits of holly and a yulelog......!!!!!

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Jesus.

The current incarnation of the festival seems a bit moot. Unless it was a Pagan festival to begin with, then we have no idea what Christmas or the accompanying paraphernalia would resemble, and whether there would even be a celebration for the baby Jesus at all. I think if you took the Jesus birth myth out of Christmas, then most people wouldn't even notice.

I'm neither suggesting, or ridiculing Christians myself, by saying that the history of religious abuse stretches long and far, and through times where even to say you doubted the existence of god would end in torture at best. So the fact that we're even in a position to discuss the issues is a secular triumph. I don't think Christians/Abrahamic religious people should be too surprised when people are happy to see the power of the church dwindling. As long as we are a Christian country, with representatives in the HOL, then they are up there to be shot at.

I'm not a fan of religion (as you know), but I'm more of a fan of expression and free speech. The further religion is moved out of the public sphere, the better for everyone, but I have no desire to see religion stamped out at all. It should be a really personal thing, and I also have no issues with having public churches, mosques, synagogues, or temples. Just not at the expense of the taxpayer.

People can do what they like as far as I'm concerned, but time is not a significant factor in working out whether opinions and views are worthy.

I reckon if you took every Christian element out of Christmas, people would notice. For a start, you'd have to change the name.

Christianity is an easy target, I think. Look at how Christians are treated in the UK, seeing that it is a "Christian country". White, middle-class people are terrified of upsetting other religions and Christians bear the brunt of that, in my opinion. And at a report of the church crumbling, people are on here saying how pleased they are about it. If you're going to rejoice in the demise of Christianity, then take time off work to celebrate Christmas, I think that's a little cynical. [When I say 'you' I don't mean you personally].

[Niamh.]

We could just change the name to Xmas