To Train up a child

[Niamh.]

I saw a news story on my Facebook feed about a third couple having been found guilty of murdering their child after following "parenting" instructions from this book. I was originally going to make a thread on that story(found here : http://www.examiner.com/article/another-couple-found-guilty-of-murder-for-parenting-by-to-train-up-a-child ) but decided making a thread on the book itself would be better. Has anyone heard of this book before? and how is a book that encourages beating your child with hose pipe, starving your kids and making them sleep outside not only as punishments but before they do anything wrong to "train" them even legal?

They encourage you to even hit 6 month old babies with sticks to train them. This book is actually being sold on amazon........unbelievable :bored:

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/675331.To_Train_Up_a_Child


Here are some recommendations from the book :

Using plastic tubing to beat children, since it hurts a lot but leaves fewer marks to alert authorities
Wearing the plastic tubing around the parent's neck as a constant reminder to obey
"Swatting" babies as young as six months old with instruments such as "a 12-inch willowy branch," thinner plastic tubing or a wooden spoon
"Blanket training" babies by hitting them with an instrument if they try to crawl off a blanket on the floor
Beating older children with rulers, paddles, belts and larger tree branches
"Training" children with pain before they even disobey, in order to teach total obedience
Giving cold water baths, putting children outside in cold weather and withholding meals as discipline
Hosing off children who have potty training accidents
Inflicting punishment until a child is "without breath to complain."


Michael Pearl tells one mother on his website, "I could break his anger in two days. He would be too scared to get angry. On the third day he would draw into a quiet shell and obey."

[Kyle]

I saw a new story on my Facebook feed about a third couple having been found guilty of murdering their child after following "parenting" instructions from this book. I was originally going to make a thread on that story(found here : http://www.examiner.com/article/another-couple-found-guilty-of-murder-for-parenting-by-to-train-up-a-child ) but decided making a thread on the book itself would be better. has anyone heard of this book before? and how is a book that encourages beating your child with hose pipe, starving your kids and making them sleep outside not only as punishments but before they do anything wrong to "train" them even legal?

They encourage you to even hit 6 month old babies with sticks to train them. This book is actually being sold on amazon........unbelievable :bored:

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/675331.To_Train_Up_a_Child

That's not the worst of it, I just clicked the link you put and it's got a 3 star bloody rating. Out there some weirdo is probably using this book to train their kid, probably beating them over the head with it and everything. :conf:

[Niamh.]

Oh there is actually a petition to have Amazon stop selling it :

https://www.change.org/petitions/amazon-refuse-to-carry-books-which-advocate-the-physical-abuse-of-children#share

[HD]

"Goodreads.com"
:hmph:

[Niamh.]

Here are some recommendations from the book :

Using plastic tubing to beat children, since it hurts a lot but leaves fewer marks to alert authorities
Wearing the plastic tubing around the parent's neck as a constant reminder to obey
"Swatting" babies as young as six months old with instruments such as "a 12-inch willowy branch," thinner plastic tubing or a wooden spoon
"Blanket training" babies by hitting them with an instrument if they try to crawl off a blanket on the floor
Beating older children with rulers, paddles, belts and larger tree branches
"Training" children with pain before they even disobey, in order to teach total obedience
Giving cold water baths, putting children outside in cold weather and withholding meals as discipline
Hosing off children who have potty training accidents
Inflicting punishment until a child is "without breath to complain."


Michael Pearl tells one mother on his website, "I could break his anger in two days. He would be too scared to get angry. On the third day he would draw into a quiet shell and obey."

[Tom4784]

I hope this man doesn't have any kids, if he does then they should be taken away from him immediately.

[Josy]

I have no idea how this is allowed to be sold? Who the hell are these people that are buying it/carrying out the things that are in it?

Find all their kids and remove them from them immediately.

[Niamh.]

I hope this man doesn't have any kids, if he does then they should be taken away from him immediately.

Him and his wife wrote the book, they seem to have a bit of a Cult following, scary : / They have 5 children themselves (all adults now)

http://nogreaterjoy.org/about-us/meet-the-pearls/

[Josy]

Him and his wife wrote the book, they seem to have a bit of a Cult following, scary : / They have 5 children themselves

http://nogreaterjoy.org/about-us/meet-the-pearls/

The authorities need to investigate them :suspect:

[Kate!]

omg...wtf! Sicko's!

- signs petition instantly - :mad:

[Vanessa]

How is this allowed i have no idea. It's murder. :nono:

[Niamh.]

I have no idea how this is allowed to be sold? Who the hell are these people that are buying it/carrying out the things that are in it?

Find all their kids and remove them from them immediately.

here's some comments from people who gave it 5 stars on Amazon :

1 of 1 people found the following review helpful
5.0 out of 5 stars biblical truths, November 20, 2013
By vmstoltzfus - See all my reviews
This review is from: To Train Up a Child (Paperback)
Sound biblical truths are all I can say for this book! Read it with an open mind ask the Holy Spirit to guide you and you will see it for what it truly is. Who has better results.... those who do not discipline their children at all or those who discipline with love??? May we know the truth for only the truth will set us free.


1 of 1 people found the following review helpful
5.0 out of 5 stars Bonded Family, November 20, 2013
By Laura Stockman - See all my reviews
This review is from: To Train Up a Child (Paperback)
Our children are happy to obey and we have a lot of fun together. We look forward to the long summer holidays because we enjoy all the extra time we can spend with them. To Train Up a Child is the best book for parents we can recommend!

2 of 2 people found the following review helpful
5.0 out of 5 stars I have truely read this book!, November 20, 2013
By Debbie Ford - See all my reviews
This review is from: To Train Up a Child (Paperback)
This is a very helpful book that I would tell anyone with kids or planning on having kids to read. It has a lot of very practical ways to teach your kids to be obedient and respectful. This is turn will help you enjoy your children and help your children be happy! These techniques really do work, but you must remember that all of these tips are given in love. Remember no discipline techniques should be taken to extremes. This book is truely eye opening and should be read by all parents who wish to raise their children to be better than society expects them to be!

2 of 2 people found the following review helpful
5.0 out of 5 stars Heavenly Children & Happy Mom's, November 20, 2013
By susan rossbach - See all my reviews
This review is from: To Train Up a Child (Paperback)
This is a great book. It will save your child and your sanity! The Pearls will make it so you love your child and the world loves your child. They teach you important Spirit building as well. Their approach is a refreshing change to the Devil filled world! We have 6 perfect angels (kids) that I can take anywhere and never be embarrassed. All of them will sit and not cause a disturbance in any restaurant or theater. They are truly happy and healthy kids. So many people that talk about their kids like they are burdens that they hate it makes my heart cry. If you don't Love your children the world certainly will not!!! This book is a must have for any new mother!

[Josy]

^^Crazyness, I'm reading some of the reviews on good reads and thankfully the majority of them are negative.

[Vicky.]

I heard about this book a whileback and signed the (or a) petition back then. Its just disgusting.

[Kate!]

it is disgusting, find it hard to comprehend any parent would feel what is being advocated here as a good idea :conf: Some people aren't fit to have kids.

[arista]

"Using plastic tubing to beat children, since it hurts a lot but leaves fewer marks to alert authorities"


Shocking

[arista]

How is this allowed i have no idea. It's murder. :nono:



American States
use these books

[Jesus.]

Fear is not something that should ever be used. I prefer the methods that encourage the use of sign language with children before they can talk.

Expression and communication will always be better than shutting people down and telling them that you know best.

[Ammi]

..what I don't understand is how these books are even published ..surely the publishers have to take some responsibility as well...there will always be lunatics out there but as a publisher, you would just take one look at what their views are and send them on their way, with a phone call to child services...

[arista]

..what I don't understand is how these books are even published ..surely the publishers have to take some responsibility as well...there will always be lunatics out there but as a publisher, you would just take one look at what their views are and send them on their way, with a phone call to child services...


Most are American
Nothing like the UK

[Niamh.]

Fear is not something that should ever be used. I prefer the methods that encourage the use of sign language with children before they can talk.

Expression and communication will always be better than shutting people down and telling them that you know best.

I agree, I disagree with punishing children physically as a rule but this is an another league altogether

[Ammi]

.. but I don't think the UK is that much better in that UK Amazon still sell it, and maybe it's available in some shops here as well...?... of course, the writers of it are extrememly disturbing but it's a whole 'chain' thing of why it's even available to be bought by anyone else...

[arista]

.. but I don't think the UK is that much better in that UK Amazon still sell it, and maybe it's available in some shops here as well...?... of course, the writers of it are extrememly disturbing but it's a whole 'chain' thing of why it's even available to be bought by anyone else...



Yes as it makes money.


Its been on many TV Debates
but no one is going to stop using amazon
as they sell so much good stuff cheaper
even grocery.

[Kizzy]

Crazyness... I notice one purchaser states they are 'christian' I just don't know what to say, shocked doesn't really come close.

[Niamh.]

Crazyness... I notice one purchaser states they are 'christian' I just don't know what to say, shocked doesn't really come close.

I think the people who wrote the book are Christian as well and claim it's a Christian way of bringing up your kids

http://nogreaterjoy.org/about-us/meet-the-pearls/

[Cherie]

Can't believe they managed to publish the book never mind sell it.

[Ammi]

QIs1-4uj_zs

[arista]

QIs1-4uj_zs



Yes American Evil

[Lee.]

Erm, I can take my children to a restaurant without causing a disturbance without ever feeling the need to beat them with sticks! Bloody hell! Why/how could anybody think that these sort of techniques will do children good?? :(

[Niamh.]

QIs1-4uj_zs

I'll watch that later

[Niamh.]

Erm, I can take my children to a restaurant without causing a disturbance without ever feeling the need to beat them with sticks! Bloody hell! Why/how could anybody think that these sort of techniques will do children good?? :(

Yeah, I know it's as if people think if you don't hit your kids they're going to be out of control lunatics. My children were always well behaved as young kids and now and I have never hit them

[user104658]

Erm, I can take my children to a restaurant without causing a disturbance without ever feeling the need to beat them with sticks! Bloody hell! Why/how could anybody think that these sort of techniques will do children good?? :(

I can take mine anywhere and they have never been punished, in any way, physical or otherwise... but these people will always lie in order to peddle their madness. The best way to gain a child's respect (as is true with ANY person), at any age, is mutual respect. A child who likes you, enjoys spending time with you, and feels like an equal will have no desire to "act up" in the first place so no threat of punishment is needed. It's a simple enough concept. Doesn't really fill books though so there's no money to be made from it.

The Pearls are the worst of it but there are plenty of Pearl-lites out there doing just as much damage... e.g. Tizzie cry-it-out Hall, who advocates putting an extra layer of bedding under your 1 year old, so that when you leave them to cry so much that they VOMIT, you can quickly remove the soiled bedding without picking them up. She also recommends piling them under 10 to 15 blankets so that they "sleep well". She's a one woman SIDS machine.

[user104658]

Yeah, I know it's as if people think if you don't hit your kids they're going to be out of control lunatics.

It's a self-justification process; usually they did / do hit their own children so they have to make it "necessary" in their minds in order to make it OK... and so, people who don't do the same must be raising brats.

It's some of the worst logic I've ever heard, though... one of the absolute basics of child psychology is that they're little behavioural sponges for the first couple of years. If you hit them when they don't do what you want, you're teaching them to hit others when they don't do what they want. And very little else!

[the truth]

who wrote that?

[Josy]

who wrote that?

It tells you in the OP who wrote it..

[Ninastar]

im all for stricter parenting but this is barbaric.

[Niall]

I saw posts about this book floating around Tumblr in the past couple days and I was shocked enough to see Amazon and the publishers letting it through, but to see people seriously adhering to its 'advice'? I can't believe parents could be so callous and evil to their children. You don't beat another adult with a belt/wooden spoon/plastic tubing when they wrong you, so what makes it right to do it to someone more than half your age and size?

It's even more twisted to see people proclaim this in the name of Christianity. If God is love, then wouldn't it follow that you never lay a hand on a child? There are just so many things wrong with this that I could be here till next week talking about it..

[the truth]

who wrote that?

[the truth]

I saw posts about this book floating around Tumblr in the past couple days and I was shocked enough to see Amazon and the publishers letting it through, but to see people seriously adhering to its 'advice'? I can't believe parents could be so callous and evil to their children. You don't beat another adult with a belt/wooden spoon/plastic tubing when they wrong you, so what makes it right to do it to someone more than half your age and size?

It's even more twisted to see people proclaim this in the name of Christianity. If God is love, then wouldn't it follow that you never lay a hand on a child? There are just so many things wrong with this that I could be here till next week talking about it..

Theyre deranged....just as some people watch movies and then do copy cat killings? can we ban all movies, all religion, all music etc etc etc impossible. we need to be more vigilant and weed out nutjobs and also take weapons off the streets too which make it easier for nutjobs to wreak havoc

[Niamh.]

It's a self-justification process; usually they did / do hit their own children so they have to make it "necessary" in their minds in order to make it OK... and so, people who don't do the same must be raising brats.

It's some of the worst logic I've ever heard, though... one of the absolute basics of child psychology is that they're little behavioural sponges for the first couple of years. If you hit them when they don't do what you want, you're teaching them to hit others when they don't do what they want. And very little else!

Yes, exactly, I mean that makes so much sense, I don't get how logically people don't see that. I mean you would be arrested it you hit another adult but people still think hitting a little child is ok? It makes no sense at all to me.

And in regards to your other post about that other book :shocked: That is pretty vile, leaving your baby cry till she/he vomits?? Jesus christ, I don't even know what to say about that

[user104658]

Yes, exactly, I mean that makes so much sense, I don't get how logically people don't see that. I mean you would be arrested it you hit another adult but people still think hitting a little child is ok? It makes no sense at all to me.

And in regards to your other post about that other book :shocked: That is pretty vile, leaving your baby cry till she/he vomits?? Jesus christ, I don't even know what to say about that

The "cult of Tizzie" is insane... at one point, she had thousands of people paying £30 a month each to be members of her one-on-one advice forum. That says it all, really. The money she was making by teaching parents how to "break" their children was insane. It seems to have died down a bit since then (she was in the mainstream media a lot for a while) but I assume she's still around. I stepped back from the whole "battle" (campaigning for respectful parenting) over 6 months ago, I was becoming genuinely depressed with it.

Some of her followers are genuinely mental - at one point, we had the top google search result for "is Tizzie Hall dangerous?" :joker: ... that was a can of worms! Had quite a few angry, ranting messages and one actual death threat defending her :shocked:. Not a serious one obviously, the usual internet hot air, but still... totally ridiculous.

The Pearl's followers are even worse from what I've heard, really obsessive and protective of them. I guess the more extreme the advice is, the more extreme the followers are.

[Niamh.]

The "cult of Tizzie" is insane... at one point, she had thousands of people paying £30 a month each to be members of her one-on-one advice forum. That says it all, really. The money she was making by teaching parents how to "break" their children was insane. It seems to have died down a bit since then (she was in the mainstream media a lot for a while) but I assume she's still around. I stepped back from the whole "battle" (campaigning for respectful parenting) over 6 months ago, I was becoming genuinely depressed with it.

Some of her followers are genuinely mental - at one point, we had the top google search result for "is Tizzie Hall dangerous?" :joker: ... that was a can of worms! Had quite a few angry, ranting messages and one actual death threat defending her :shocked:. Not a serious one obviously, the usual internet hot air, but still... totally ridiculous.

The Pearl's followers are even worse from what I've heard, really obsessive and protective of them. I guess the more extreme the advice is, the more extreme the followers are.

It's genuinely upsetting thinking about that many parents thinking along those lines. Even the term "break" your children should sound all wrong to parents? Surely they need to be protected and taught not broken, it's maddening just how many assholes are out there in charge of innocent little childrens lives like that.

These Pearl followers and also probably Tizzie Halls all sound like members of some ****ed up cult where control and will bending is a top priority to keep members in line

[Niamh.]

Here's another article i found an interesting read :

The Pearls strongly advocate for the spanking of children—even those who have committed minor infractions—saying that God demands that parents spank. The Pearls suggest that spankers use implements rather than the hand, because “hands are for loving and helping,” despite the fact one study shows that physical punishment with an implement is more likely to lead to physical abuse than if no implement is used.
http://religiouschildmaltreatment.com/2011/08/the-last-victims-a-letter-to-zariah/

[Z]

This is shocking... how is this allowed?

[Niamh.]

here's a list of the 5 worst parenting books............not surprisingly this one is No1

http://evolutionaryparenting.com/five-worst-parenting-books/

[GiRTh]

Just wow. These Christian crazies are far more dangerous than people think.

[Niamh.]

I know, I pity the poor children that are born into these families

[GiRTh]

here's a list of the 5 worst parenting books............not surprisingly this one is No1

http://evolutionaryparenting.com/five-worst-parenting-books/LMAO

The number two book on that list is also by Christian Crazies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Becoming_Baby_Wise

This gem advocates starving your children.

[Kizzy]

I don't know how they have the cheek to call themselves human let alone christian :(
There would be uproar if someone advocated mistreating a dog like this, but as it's their own flesh and blood that in a warped way makes it acceptable?
:crazy:

[Kizzy]

I don't know how they have the cheek to call themselves human let alone christian :(
There would be uproar if someone advocated mistreating a dog like this, but as it's their own flesh and blood that in a warped way makes it acceptable?
:crazy:

[Benjamin]

Just out of interest has anyone passing criticism of this book actually read it? Not saying I condone what this book sounds like it is about but without reading it I find it hard actually knowing what is in the book and to have much of an opinion on it.

[Lee.]

Yes I read it as part of my bookclub recently :idc:

[Benjamin]

Yes I read it as part of my bookclub recently :idc:

Did you actually?

[GiRTh]

I don't know how they have the cheek to call themselves human let alone christian :(
There would be uproar if someone advocated mistreating a dog like this, but as it's their own flesh and blood that in a warped way makes it acceptable?
:crazy:Totally agree.

They seem to think their Christian faith makes anything they're told in the name of that faith an acceptable way to behave. It seems dont want to think for themselves they just want to follow. Its crazy.

[Lee.]

Did you actually?

No I actually did not

[Niamh.]

Just out of interest has anyone passing criticism of this book actually read it? Not saying I condone what this book sounds like it is about but without reading it I find it and actually knowing what is in the book I find it hard to have to great an opinion.

No I haven't read it but these are actual quotes from the book, I think having read those quotes alone gives anyone the right to critisize both the book and the authors for child abuse and recommending you abuse your children to other parents :

The Pearls recommend switching infants only a few months old on their bare skin. They describe switching their own 4 month old daughter (p.9).
At four months she was too unknowing to be punished for disobedience. But for her own good, we attempted to train her not to climb the stairs by coordinating the voice command of “No” with little spats on the bare legs. The switch was a twelve-inch long, one-eighth-inch diameter sprig from a willow tree.

On p.60 they recommend switching babies who cannot sleep and are crying, and to never allow them “to get up.”
But what of the grouch who would rather complain than sleep? Get tough. Be firm with him. Never put him down and then allow him to get up. If, after putting him down, you remember he just woke up, do not reward his complaining by allowing him to get up.For the sake of consistency in training, you must follow through. He may not be able to sleep, but he can be trained to lie there quietly. He will very quickly come to know that any time he is laid down there is no alternative but to stay put. To get up is to be on the firing line and get switched back down.

On p.59 they recommend spanking a 3 year old until he is “totally broken.”
She then administers about ten slow, patient licks on his bare legs. He cries in pain. If he continues to show defiance by jerking around and defending himself, or by expressing anger, then she will wait a moment and again lecture him and again spank him. When it is obvious he is totally broken, she will hand him the rag and very calmly say, “Johnny, clean up your mess.” He should very contritely wipe up the water.

http://whynottrainachild.com/2010/04/20/quotes-from-ttuac/

[Niamh.]

and to add, I certainly wouldn't be giving those people my money by buying their book

[Benjamin]

No I haven't read it but these are actual quotes from the book, I think having read those quotes alone gives anyone the right to critisize both the book and the authors for child abuse and recommending you abuse your children to other parents :

The Pearls recommend switching infants only a few months old on their bare skin. They describe switching their own 4 month old daughter (p.9).
At four months she was too unknowing to be punished for disobedience. But for her own good, we attempted to train her not to climb the stairs by coordinating the voice command of “No” with little spats on the bare legs. The switch was a twelve-inch long, one-eighth-inch diameter sprig from a willow tree.

On p.60 they recommend switching babies who cannot sleep and are crying, and to never allow them “to get up.”
But what of the grouch who would rather complain than sleep? Get tough. Be firm with him. Never put him down and then allow him to get up. If, after putting him down, you remember he just woke up, do not reward his complaining by allowing him to get up.For the sake of consistency in training, you must follow through. He may not be able to sleep, but he can be trained to lie there quietly. He will very quickly come to know that any time he is laid down there is no alternative but to stay put. To get up is to be on the firing line and get switched back down.

On p.59 they recommend spanking a 3 year old until he is “totally broken.”
She then administers about ten slow, patient licks on his bare legs. He cries in pain. If he continues to show defiance by jerking around and defending himself, or by expressing anger, then she will wait a moment and again lecture him and again spank him. When it is obvious he is totally broken, she will hand him the rag and very calmly say, “Johnny, clean up your mess.” He should very contritely wipe up the water.

http://whynottrainachild.com/2010/04/20/quotes-from-ttuac/

Yes but without actually reading the whole book it's hard to fully know the full story of it. It would be like having an opinions on a film you have never watched but heard about from everyone else.

I'm not saying this book isn't down right ludicrous, it sounds awful, but I myself find it hard to gain a proper opinion on it unless I were to read it.

[Ammi]

..what I don't understand is how these things can be published and allowed to be sold...you will always get lunatics/extremes, whether it be under the guise of 'religion' or not...and I'm sure that some 'christians' still have archaic 'Magdalene' views on what makes a child a Christian child...as they're are some very cruel/bazaar traditions in other religions as well..but they shouldn't be allowed to 'sell' those views to others and they should be closely investigated by authorities...

[Niamh.]

Yes but without actually reading the whole book it's hard to fully know the full story of it. It would be like having an opinions on a film you have never watched but heard about from everyone else.

I'm not saying this book isn't down right ludicrous, it sounds awful, but I myself find it hard to gain a proper opinion on it unless I were to read it.

I don't get what you mean by that tbh, this is a parenting advice manual not a story, I've read some of their advice, that is quite frankly abusive, there may well be some gems in there but that's not the point, the point is there is some horrendous and abusive stuff in there and for that alone, these people should be arrested imo, it doesn't matter an iota what else is in the book

[Ammi]

Yes but without actually reading the whole book it's hard to fully know the full story of it. It would be like having an opinions on a film you have never watched but heard about from everyone else.

I'm not saying this book isn't down right ludicrous, it sounds awful, but I myself find it hard to gain a proper opinion on it unless I were to read it.

..but isn't this a forum of discussing things, though Ben...and I know it's not identical but isn't it similar to saying..oh, you're not married, so can't really comment on marriage..or don't have children, so can't comment on parenthood..etc, that sort of thing....

[Niamh.]

Here's their advice for if your child has a toilet accident :

They recommend hosing off a child outside in order to clean him if he continues to soil himself.
So, my suggestion was that the father explain to the boy that, now that he was a man, he would no longer be washed in the house. He was too big and too stinky to be cleaned by the babywipes. From now on, he would be washed outside with a garden hose.

[Benjamin]

..but isn't this a forum of discussing things, though Ben...and I know it's not identical but isn't it similar to saying..oh, you're not married, so can't really comment on marriage..or don't have children, so can't comment on parenthood..etc, that sort of thing....

Reread what I wrote. I'm not saying you shouldn't have opinions on it. I said I find it hard to make a full opinion without reading the whole book.

And lynch me all you want, some of the things about the book are actually not that bad.

[Niamh.]

Reread what I wrote. I'm not saying you shouldn't have opinions on it. I said I find it hard to make a full opinion without reading the whole book.

And lynch me all you want, some of the things about the book are actually not that bad.

But it doesn't matter if some of the things in the book aren't that bad imo because there are some things in there, that these people are passing out as advice on how to raise a child that are jail worthy, do you see what I'm saying? In this case imo I don't think whether or not you read the book matters

[Ammi]

Reread what I wrote. I'm not saying you shouldn't have opinions on it. I said I find it hard to make a full one without reading the whole book.

And lynch me all you want, some of the things about the book are actually not that bad.

..no one's 'lynching' anyone...for me it doesn't matter what the not so bad things are because of the messages and impact of the bad ones, which a third set of parents have just been found guilty of murdering their child because they believed in the book as a 'manual' for Christian parenting..yeah, that's gullible/idiotic etc but for me it's a reason why the book shouldn't be allowed for anyone to read...laws have been made/changed when just one person has been harmed by something and this is now three times..so anything good in it is irrelevant to me....

[Benjamin]

But it doesn't matter if some of the things in the book aren't that bad imo because there are some things in there, that these people are passing out as advice on how to raise a child that are jail worthy, do you see what I'm saying? In this case imo I don't think whether or not you read the book matters

In my opinion it does. I'll leave it at that.

[GiRTh]

I havent read the book but the danger, for me, is in Christian crazies taking the book literally. If you read up on the children who have died it seems their parent didnt interpret the advise in the book, they took it literally. That is very dangerous.

EDIT: Apparently, one of the kids who died was beaten for hours for mispronouncing a word.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Lydia_Schatz

[Niamh.]

In my opinion it does. I'll leave it at that.

Why are you getting annoyed with me? Jeez, I'm actually trying to discuss it with you but you obviously wanted to make your point and leave without any debate at all :joker:

[Benjamin]

Why are you getting annoyed with me? Jeez, I'm actually trying to discuss it with you but you obviously wanted to make your point and leave without any debate at all :joker:

I'm not annoyed at you. :tongue:

I just don't often stay too long in these types of threads because I find I have to try and justify myself too much and I haven't the patience for it normally. So I just say my point and leave.

[Benjamin]

I havent read the book but the danger, for me, is in Christian crazies taking the book literally. If you read up on the children who have died it seems their parent didnt interpret the advise in the book, they took it literally. That is very dangerous.


I would like to highlight this though.

[Niamh.]

Did you read the actual quotes from the book though? Even if you follow that advise to the letter, it's still child abuse and no matter what else they say in that book, it's sullied by their advocating of child abuse

[Vicky.]

I havent read any of these books, and I dont intend to. The snippets are enough to tell me what they are like, and what the people who follow the 'advice' are like too. ****ing assholes who don't deserve to have children. I hope one day the parents are treat the way they treat their children..lets see if they think its acceptable then.

[GiRTh]

Did you read the actual quotes from the book though? Even if you follow that advise to the letter, it's still child abuse and no matter what else they say in that book, it's sullied by their advocating of child abuseThat is, I think, what Ben is trying to say. IF you are a level headed person you interpret the book and adapt it to your circumstances but if you are a Christian crazie who wants to be told what to do and then blame the consequences on the Lord moving in mysterious ways then you take the book literally and beat the hell out of your kids for the slightest thing. In that context the book is not so dangerous.

[Niamh.]

That is, I think, what Ben is trying to say. IF you are a level headed person you interpret the book and adapt it to your circumstances but if you are a Christian crazie who wants to be told what to do and then blame the consequences on the Lord moving in mysterious ways then you take the book literally and beat hte hell out of your kids for the slightest thing. In that context the book is not so dangerous.

Is it? To me he's saying that if you haven't read the book you can't say it's a worthless heap of s**t, I think I can, after reading some quotes from it

[Ammi]

I havent read the book but the danger, for me, is in Christian crazies taking the book literally. If you read up on the children who have died it seems their parent didnt interpret the advise in the book, they took it literally. That is very dangerous.

EDIT: Apparently, one of the kids who died was beaten for hours for mispronouncing a word.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Lydia_Schatz

..yeah I agree but for me the danger is any crazies though, not just 'christian' ones with any book like this which has been and is still being allowed...maybe, a portion of it is interpretation but crazies don't have the ability to interpret, that's why they're 'extreme'..and if just one child was harmed directly from an interpretation of this book, then that seriously needs to be looked at and acted on...

[GiRTh]

Is it? To me he's saying that if you haven't read the book you can't say it's a worthless heap of s**t, I think I can, after reading some quotes from it
OK I thought he was saying that until you've read it you cant correctly interpret it.

[Ammi]

That is, I think, what Ben is trying to say. IF you are a level headed person you interpret the book and adapt it to your circumstances but if you are a Christian crazie who wants to be told what to do and then blame the consequences on the Lord moving in mysterious ways then you take the book literally and beat the hell out of your kids for the slightest thing. In that context the book is not so dangerous.

...hmmm, so 'not dangerous' in that it should be allowed and left for interpretation from the non crazies....I still don't think I get that in that if it was a book that said..'you should beat the gay out of gays'..and worse stuff....or torture someone's culture out of them...and even one crazy/extremist acted on that directly...then in any context, that's 'dangerous' for a book like that to be out there for people's interpretations...

[Niamh.]

OK I thought he was saying that until you've read it you cant correctly interpret it.

Well, yes that was what I meant, in not so nice terms :laugh: But yeah I think I can say that it's not a good book for advice on raising a child based solely on upsetting quotes I've read and to add to that I wouldn't support those people by buying and reading the rest of it

[GiRTh]

The fact that the author is high ranking religious leader does taint my argument. As a high ranking religious leader he should know how much influence he has and be more responsible. In such a context the book is very dangerous.

[Benjamin]

Is it? To me he's saying that if you haven't read the book you can't say it's a worthless heap of s**t, I think I can, after reading some quotes from it

No I never. I said that you cannot get a full opinion on the book unless you read it.

[Niamh.]

No I never. I said that you cannot get a full opinion on the book unless you read it.

Ok, well I can get enough of an opinion on the book to know It contains advice to parents to abuse their children............which is all I've been saying