Japan Hell of a nation in 1937 they invaded China in 1941 They Kicked the Americans

[arista]

China can not stop Japan back in 1937
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Sino-Japanese_War

1941 early morning attack on Americans relaxing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_Harbor_attacks


So its No Wonder America used them
For Atomic Bombs Tests (to stay in front of the weapons race)
they were so pleased they
bombed them again for good measure


Sign Of The Times

[Z]

I find it interesting reading about Hiroshima and Nagasaki, I can't remember which one it was but one of the two of them wasn't the original planned target for the bomb, it was due to bad weather that it was dropped where it was, there were clouds obscuring the view of whichever city it was that was meant to be bombed... Such an awe inspiring awful thing to do, saddens me that there are countries with nuclear arsenals today and that they're still used as a tool to threaten others.

[Roy Mars III]

Hiroshima and Nagasaki had less to do with Japan surrendering than people say. While the destruction was terrible, it was pretty much the same as the fire bombing the US had been doing for a while(if you look at pics of Hiroshima and the earlier bombing of Tokyo they are very similar). It just happened much faster with nukes. Japan would have surrendered soon even with out the bombs. They were too far gone at that point, plus the threat of full on war with the U.S. and Russia

[Jesus.]

Apparently pearl harbour happened on a really cold day. There was a real nip in the air.

[Kyle]

Been reading up on Japan's use of 'comfort women' during the war with China and WWII. Some very harrowing stuff.

[Livia]

Have a read about Japanese prisoner of war camps and their treatment of prisoners. I think that says more about the Japanese than anything else.

[smeagol]

china still hasn't forgiven them for what they did. what did they did to the people was disgusting.
if you watch the christian bale movie the flowers of war. it gives a small insight

What i find interesting is the future. with korea determined to cause ww3 and china allies to them and japan against both. if it came down to it i wonder where they would really stand. hopefully on the right side with us.

wars are so pointless, all that suffering for what.

[arista]

china still hasn't forgiven them for what they did. what did they did to the people was disgusting.
if you watch the christian bale movie the flowers of war. it gives a small insight

What i find interesting is the future. with korea determined to cause ww3 and china allies to them and japan against both. if it came down to it i wonder where they would really stand. hopefully on the right side with us.

wars are so pointless, all that suffering for what.


But in the First World War
the Fecking Germans started taking over Europe and Russia
so war had to start.


Blame the Fecking Germans

[Livia]

But in the First World War
the Fecking Germans started taking over Europe and Russia
so war had to start.


Blame the Fecking Germans

And now they've accomplished it, haven't they. They had their country and their economy built back up for them by the allies after WW2, despite the UK being on its knees, penniless and heavily in debt (we only paid our war debt off to the USA in December 2006), and now the Germans run Europe. Just like they wanted. But I digress... Back to the other dangerous, warring nation with some kind of strange cruelty built into their DNA... Japan.

[arista]

And now they've accomplished it, haven't they. They had their country and their economy built back up for them by the allies after WW2, despite the UK being on its knees, penniless and heavily in debt (we only paid our war debt off to the USA in December 2006), and now the Germans run Europe. Just like they wanted. But I digress... Back to the other dangerous, warring nation with some kind of strange cruelty built into their DNA... Japan.



Yes but not in a Stable Way
The €uro can still impload
due to France , Greece and Spain

[Livia]

Yes but not in a Stable Way
The €uro can stil impload
due to France , Greece and Spain

Fingers crossed.

[Z]

Let's hope not, if the Euro crashes, there are going to be an awful lot of people east of Germany wanting answers and they're going to turn to Mother Russia if they don't get them.

[Jesus.]

Time to leave these petty squabbles in the past.

http://wallmii.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Japanese-Women-Full-HD-Wallpaper.jpg

I would forgive the s**t out of her.

[Kizzy]

No nation has cruelty built into their DNA, it's corrupt governments that cause war and commandeer innocent men to commit atrocious acts in the name of patriotism...

[smeagol]

No nation has cruelty built into their DNA, it's corrupt governments that cause war and commandeer innocent men to commit atrocious acts in the name of patriotism...

every country is the same. your right its those who lead and the sheep that follow is why there is war and suffering. but every country is guilty of unspeakable acts. england were ruthless once upon a time.and still are no saints.

its good to see all the countries get a long and have moved on like it is now.
so much progress.

[Livia]

I wasn't being literal, I didn't think I needed to explain that. I have German blood myself.

[Nedusa]

I agree the Japanese have a particularly strange way of treating their fellow man in a warring scenario . The Second World War showed the cruel and heartless nature of most Japanese soldiers and you would have to assume this trait is hard wired into the Japanese DNA .

They inflicted the most inhuman treatment on prisoners of war you could imagine , treating them worse than animals . They like the Nazis experimented on Allied soldiers and seaman for fun.

Whilst I do not agree with the events of Hiroshima and Nagasaki I do not think it could have happened to a more deserving nation.

[lostalex]

If America just wanted to be evil, we could have built more bombs and bombed russia and china and any other potential threat before they ever got the bomb. There was a period right after ww2 where only WE had the bomb, and if we WANTED to use it to destroy all potential enemies, we could and would have.

America showed incredible restraint and logic in it's use of the ultimate weapon when we were the only nation in the world to have it. We showed incredibly restraint BEFORE other countries had it, and Mutually Assured Destruction became a reality.

If we wanted to conquer the world after ww2, we could have. but we didn't. Instead we empowered the world, and even our enemies. We empowered our enemies (japan/italy/germany) just as much as we empowered our allies (UK/France/all of western europe) after the war. We gave generously and without prejudice.

If America had any hatred in it's heart, we could have put all the Japanese-Americans into gas chambers, instead of the internment camps. We could have dropped the atomic bomb on Tokyo, Berlin, and Milan.

America has proven itself to be trustworthy of having this technology.

[Jesus.]

I agree the Japanese have a particularly strange way of treating their fellow man in a warring scenario . The Second World War showed the cruel and heartless nature of most Japanese soldiers and you would have to assume this trait is hard wired into the Japanese DNA .

They inflicted the most inhuman treatment on prisoners of war you could imagine , treating them worse than animals . They like the Nazis experimented on Allied soldiers and seaman for fun.

Whilst I do not agree with the events of Hiroshima and Nagasaki I do not think it could have happened to a more deserving nation.

It's a human condition, not a Japanese condition. We are programmed to follow hierarchy. That Stanford prison experiment highlights this better than anything.

L_LKzEqlPto

[lostalex]

It's a human condition, not a Japanese condition. We are programmed to follow hierarchy. That Stanford prison experiment highlights this better than anything.

L_LKzEqlPto

but Stanford just proved how an institutional environment can encourage people to be evil, not that people are inherently evil....

It shows that the Japanese had institutionalized evil. The Japanese government, institution, promoted evil. Just like Stanford encouraged the Prison Guards to be evil.

It's true than any institution can make people do evil things if that's their intention. It was definitely the Japanese government's intention to treat prisoners in an evil way. Japan has to account for that. They purposefully did evil.

[Jesus.]

but Stanford just proved how an institutional environment can encourage people to be evil, not that people are inherently evil....

It shows that the Japanese had institutionalized evil. The Japanese government, institution, promoted evil. Just like Stanford encouraged the Prison Guards to be evil.

It's true than any institution can make people do evil things if that's their intention. It was definitely the Japanese government's intention to treat prisoners in an evil way. Japan has to account for that. They purposefully did evil.

Not sure I follow what you're saying. I don't think any nation is or could ever be dismissed as inherently evil. Humans are programmed to follow authority - it's in our evolutionary past, and it is the way that governments and monarchies are automatically set up.

The Japanese government set out to treat other people really inhumanely, but the Japanese guards/army etc, that administered the orders of their superiors, are not evil people, they are just human with human weaknesses.

It's in no way fair to say it is the make up or DNA of a country.

[lostalex]

Not sure I follow what you're saying. I don't think any nation is or could ever be dismissed as inherently evil. Humans are programmed to follow authority - it's in our evolutionary past, and it is the way that governments and monarchies are automatically set up.

The Japanese government set out to treat other people really inhumanely, but the Japanese guards/army etc, that administered the orders of their superiors, are not evil people, they are just human with human weaknesses.

It's in no way fair to say it is the make up or DNA of a country.

What is a country then? maybe it is the language that is dividing us. What is a country and what do you understand the "DNA" of a country to mean?

I would say the "DNA" of a country is judged by it's actions and it's intentions. I would say that Japan could accurately be described as evil on both scores.

So what is your disagreement? spell it out for me.

[Jesus.]

What is a country then? maybe it is the language that is dividing us. What is a country and what do you understand the "DNA" of a country to mean?

I would say the "DNA" of a country is judged by it's actions and it's intentions. I would say that Japan could accurately be described as evil on both scores.

So what is your disagreement? spell it out for me.

If you go back to Nedusa's post which led to my reply, where he said the following:

The Second World War showed the cruel and heartless nature of most Japanese soldiers and you would have to assume this trait is hard wired into the Japanese DNA .

I fundamentally disagree that any kind of cruel or heartless trait exists to begin with, or if it did, could ever be hard-wired into a whole nation. People are just people.

A country to me, is just a collection of people who live in a humanly defined piece of land.

There are times in history, when lots of countries could have been classed as inherently evil. England for most of it to be honest, and now we're the biggest bunch of pussies on the planet.

Americans for wiping out the indigenous people, or forcing the Chinese to build their railways and the associated crimes involved there.

We change and we learn.

[lostalex]

I don't think power was as centralized back then as you think it was. It was a fundamental racist Japanese philosophy against outsiders which led to their brutality. It was a racist ideology which they held in their hearts. It was not just a few brutal Japanese leaders forcing people do do what they did, it was a fundamental belief system.

You are trying to make it sound like superiors were standing over them forcing the Japanese people and soldiers to act brutally. It was the fundamental ideology of the Japanese people that was evil, not just the leadership.

There can be no storm without the rain.

[lostalex]

If you go back to Nedusa's post which led to my reply, where he said the following:



I fundamentally disagree that any kind of cruel or heartless trait exists to begin with, or if it did, could ever be hard-wired into a whole nation. People are just people.

A country to me, is just a collection of people who live in a humanly defined piece of land.

There are times in history, when lots of countries could have been classed as inherently evil. England for most of it to be honest, and now we're the biggest bunch of pussies on the planet.

Americans for wiping out the indigenous people, or forcing the Chinese to build their railways and the associated crimes involved there.

We change and we learn.

You mean European colonists wiped out the indigenous people of the Americas.

It is Americans that atone for and try to rectify the crimes of the Europeans against the natives.

[Jesus.]

i don't think power was a centralized back then as you think it was. It was a fundamental racist Japanese philosophy against outsiders which led to their brutality. It was a racist ideology which they held in their hearts.

You are trying to make it sound like superiors were standing over them forcing the Japanese people and soldiers to act brutally. It was the ideology of Japanese nationalism that was evil, not just the leadership.

There can be no storm without the rain.

As a species, we obey our superiors. The generals obey the emperor, the captains obey the generals, and the soldiers obey the captains. It's a small loop, and doesn't require some kind of dictator to hold centralised power.

Even recently we've seen what can happen in photo's of both our armies abusing enemy soldiers we've captured. We know that's wrong, and those soldiers must know it's wrong too, but people do stupid things wherever there are chains of command that sanction such behaviour.

Any ideology concerning nationalism is extremely flawed in my book. I don't believe in American exceptionalism, I don't believe in the flag waving Rule Britannia's either.

People are just people, and we just want to fit in.

[lostalex]

As a species, we obey our superiors. The generals obey the emperor, the captains obey the generals, and the soldiers obey the captains. It's a small loop, and doesn't require some kind of dictator to hold centralised power.

Even recently we've seen what can happen in photo's of both our armies abusing enemy soldiers we've captured. We know that's wrong, and those soldiers must know it's wrong too, but people do stupid things wherever there are chains of command that sanction such behaviour.

Any ideology concerning nationalism is extremely flawed in my book. I don't believe in American exceptionalism, I don't believe in the flag waving Rule Britannia's either.

People are just people, and we just want to fit in.

Sorry, but I don't agree with your relativism.

All countries did not act as evil as Japan did during the war, but all countries have humans.

Saying some people are evil in every country has nothing to do with evil countries doing evil things during past wars. This kind of relativism can be used to excuse anything.

[Jesus.]

You mean European colonists wiped out the indigenous people of the Americas.

It is Americans that atone for and try to rectify the crimes of the Europeans against the natives.

Americans are the descendents of those colonists, you're not a completely different people. When I see white Americans on TV now talking about traditional America, they aren't talking about a time when indigenous people had the run of the land.

[lostalex]

Americans are the descendents of those colonists, you're not a completely different people. When I see white Americans on TV now talking about traditional America, they aren't talking about a time when indigenous people had the run of the land.

white Americans? Oh, i guess when you said Americans, you only meant white people././ wtf.

and FYI, the vast majority of white people in America, came long after Slavery and any assaults on the Native Americans was long over.

the vast majority of white people in America have no connection to owning slaves, or to fighting with the Native people at all. It was specifically the European colonists that did that. so get it right.

It was a European crime more than an American crime. Especially because it was the European aristocracy that was profiting most from colonialism. It was the rich European families profiting from colonialism, not America.

[Jesus.]

Sorry, but I don't agree with your relativism.

All countries did not act as evil as Japan did during the war, but all countries have humans.

All countries didn't act as evil as Germany did either, or Russia, but they have humans too. It is all about the authority.

It's insane to think that a group of people who share an island could have an evil trait. Fear of your (so called) superiors is a powerful motivator. We see it today - people are dying of starvation in north Korea, yet they are all too scared to fight it.

I don't believe the soldiers who run the prisons in that state, are wired differently to you or I. They don't have evil genes or traits. They are just people living in and with different circumstances. History shows us this is what happens. Otherwise the Germans would still be running bombing raids on London.

[Jesus.]

white Americans? Oh, i guess when you said Americans, you only meant white people././ wtf.

and FYI, the vast majority of white people in America, came long after Slavery and any assaults on the Native Americans was long over.

the vast majority of white people in America have no connection to owning slaves, or to fighting with the Native people at all. It was specifically the European colonists that did that. so get it right.

It was a European crime more than an American crime. Especially because it was the European aristocracy that was profiting most from colonialism. It was the rich European families profiting from colonialism, not America.

So it was a multi-cultural America at the time you were wiping out the natives?

You've just proved my point.

the vast majority of white people in America have no connection to owning slaves, or to fighting with the Native people at all.

Exactly - there are no collectively evil traits for nation states..

[lostalex]

So it was a multi-cultural America at the time you were wiping out the natives?

You've just proved my point.



Exactly - there are no collectively evil traits for nation states..

umm, what? Nothing you said applies to anything you are replying to. did you actually read what i said before you replied?

Your replies make no sense.

The vast majority of white Americans came long after slavery and assaults on native americans were over, so how does your reply make sense? Do you understand that most people in America are not ancestors of the people that came over on Mayflower? they came long after, long after colonialism was over. they didn't own slaves, they came here with nothing and had to work their way up against the aristocracy.

Slavery and Colonialism was a European thing, not an American thing.
You really don't seem to know much about American history at all.

[Jesus.]

umm, what? Nothing you said applies to anything you are replying to. did you actually read what i said before you replied? it makes no sense.

The pilgrims that first went across to America to escape the authority of the European church - what heritage were they? What was the heritage of the people who wiped the indigenous people out of the country?

[lostalex]

The pilgrims that first went across to America to escape the authority of the European church - what heritage were they? What was the heritage of the people who wiped the indigenous people out of the country?

European. And you make a good point, because theres different waves of colonists to the Amerricas, there were people like the Pilgrims who wanted to escape religious persecution, but the vast MAJORITY of colonialism was funded by rich people to RAPE the Americas of it's resources. Top find gold and precious metals, or to start plantations to export tobacco and sugar back to Europe.... these were European exploitations, not American.

But you are talking about the original colonists.

You forget that the vast majority of America's population boom came in the 20th century. People that had no connection to slaveyr or European imperialism/colonialism at all.

You don't seem to grasp the timeline of American history.

You seem hell bent on exonerating Europe for these crimes, and saying these are American crimes though.

But you are wrong.

[Z]

I agree with Jesus, people are not born inherently evil, it's a learned behaviour. In times of war, particularly a war as desperate as World War II, soldiers did and saw unspeakably awful things on both sides and from all nations. Japan may have been particularly cruel to prisoners but so were other nations - they were living in extreme conditions, the generation who lived through World War II, and unfortunately it provoked the extreme side of human nature in some instances. Seeing as the USA is the only country in the world to have used nuclear technology in a weaponised form, I wouldn't say it's proven itself responsible with it at all, there was no need to irreversibly damage Japanese territory, kill all those people and create an entire underclass of people in Japan who are completely outcast from society (hibakusha) because of the deformities they have.

As for the Europeans/Americans debate going on... those European settlers went to America to seek out a new life and were the forefathers of America today. Either they were Europeans raping the locals of their resources or they were immigrants who declared themselves to be American. It doesn't really matter, does it? They were Europeans who left Europe to become Americans who live in America. The actions and events that took place remain the same, just splitting hairs debating who did what when it was the same people... their nationality isn't exactly the important point here.

[lostalex]

I agree with Jesus, people are not born inherently evil, it's a learned behaviour. In times of war, particularly a war as desperate as World War II, soldiers did and saw unspeakably awful things on both sides and from all nations. Japan may have been particularly cruel to prisoners but so were other nations - they were living in extreme conditions, the generation who lived through World War II, and unfortunately it provoked the extreme side of human nature in some instances. Seeing as the USA is the only country in the world to have used nuclear technology in a weaponised form, I wouldn't say it's proven itself responsible with it at all, there was no need to irreversibly damage Japanese territory, kill all those people and create an entire underclass of people in Japan who are completely outcast from society (hibakusha) because of the deformities they have.

As for the Europeans/Americans debate going on... those European settlers went to America to seek out a new life and were the forefathers of America today. Either they were Europeans raping the locals of their resources or they were immigrants who declared themselves to be American. It doesn't really matter, does it? They were Europeans who left Europe to become Americans who live in America. The actions and events that took place remain the same, just splitting hairs debating who did what when it was the same people... their nationality isn't exactly the important point here.

that is simply false, many other countries have also used nuclear weapons. including the UK, france, China, Russia....etc.

[Z]

that is simply false, many other countries have also used nuclear weapons.

No other country in the world has bombed another country with nuclear technology. Other countries have access to that technology and have tested it out in remote parts of their territory, but there have been no further Hiroshimas or Nagasakis.

[Jesus.]

Yeah, I'm well aware that people came later, but exactly what are you using as a cut off point? Some of the founding fathers were slave owners, so I'm a bit confused at your portrayal of the history of the US as being bad at the start, but it was all cleared up as quickly as anything, when the US was battling appalling race crimes and segregation more recently than we were both fighting Nazism.

This is moving miles away from my initial argument that there are no such things as evil traits within the people that share a piece of land and live in close proximity to each other - that's the point I came into this thread to make, so I have no idea how we're now on American history!!

[lostalex]

Yeah, I'm well aware that people came later, but exactly what are you using as a cut off point? Some of the founding fathers were slave owners, so I'm a bit confused at your portrayal of the history of the US as being bad at the start, but it was all cleared up as quickly as anything, when the US was battling appalling race crimes and segregation more recently than we were both fighting Nazism.

This is moving miles away from my initial argument that there are no such things as evil traits within the people that share a piece of land and live in close proximity to each other - that's the point I came into this thread to make, so I have no idea how we're now on American history!!

I'm objecting to your moral relativism, we are talking a very specific time in history and very specific behaviors and actions by specific countries.

I'm objecting to you acting like everyone is just equally weevil to let's just pretend it didn't happen.

I'm objecting to relativism in general.

I'm objecting to the idea that you can't criticize specific countries actions during specific times, and let's just all shut up and forgive everyone for everything and say that the whole world is evil, humans are evil, and no one should judge anyone else, and let's just act like everything that happens in the world is just part of one big pot of ****, therefore you never hold any specific country accountable. That's what i'm objecting to.

It's not fair to say that all humans are evil, so let's just forget which countries did what to whom. Sorry, but we shouldn't forget, and yes certain countries did certain things and they should ALWAYS be held accountable for them.

Not all humans were evil during ww2, Japan and Germany and Italy were evil. And it's a disgrace to act like all countries were wrong back then, cause we weren't. some countries are worse than others. i'm sick of this relativistic idea of equality.

All Countries are NOT equal. All Cultures are NOT equal. All People are NOT equal.

[lostalex]

No other country in the world has bombed another country with nuclear technology. Other countries have access to that technology and have tested it out in remote parts of their territory, but there have been no further Hiroshimas or Nagasakis.

America used those weapons to end the worst war in the history of the world. (a war which America shouldn't have even been involved in, a war created by Europe)

If ever there is a time to use them, that was it. America stepped in when it didn't have to, to end the worst and most dangerous war in human history.

[Jesus.]

I'm objecting to your moral relativism, we are talking a very specific time in history and very specific behaviors and actions by specific countries.

I'm objecting to you acting like everyone is just equally weevil to let's just pretend it didn't happen.

I'm objecting to relativism in general.

I'm objecting to the idea that you can't criticize specific countries actions during specific times, and let's just all shut up and forgive everyone for everything and say that the whole world is evil, humans are evil, and no one should judge anyone else, and let's just act like everything that happens in the world is just part of one big pot of ****, therefore you never hold any specific country accountable. That's what i'm objecting to.

It's not fair to say that all humans are evil, so let's just forget which countries did what to whom. Sorry, but we shouldn't forget, and yes certain countries did certain things and they should ALWAYS be held accountable for them.

I don't agree that all humans are evil, no. I do believe every single one of us has the capacity to act in the same way that the guards in Auschwitz did. Every last person on the planet.

As we're being specific again, about a specific country during a specific time, we punished those people. How long should the punishment last? How many generations should we wait before welcoming them back into the worldwide community again? Is 70 years enough? Should we wait 150 years? Maybe 1000?

Who makes that judgement. Keeping people separate only increases isolation, which in turn, offers a breeding ground for more resentment, and potential for trouble.

The Japanese are more interested in karaoke, underage sex, and getting hand jobs from robots, than they are about attacking America. Our own dickishness will continually come back and bite us on the ass if we keep treating countries like children on the naughty step.

[Z]

America used those weapons to end the worst war in the history of the world. (a war which America shouldn't have even been involved in, a war created by Europe)

If ever there is a time to use them, that was it. America stepped in when it didn't have to, to end the worst and most dangerous war in human history.

The war in Europe ended in May 1945. The USA dropped bombs on Japan of its own accord in August 1945. America only stepped in on the Allies' side for financial reasons; plenty of Americans were keen supporters of the Nazis, it was purely a business decision, not one based on morality or a desire to help, pure financial gain, so no, America didn't have to step in, it wanted to step in. There was never an okay time to use them, and using them opened up a can of worms that still affects the world today, in my opinion. It may have caused the Japanese to surrender but they were well on their way to that point before America dropped the bombs by all accounts.

[lostalex]

The war in Europe ended in May 1945. The USA dropped bombs on Japan of its own accord in August 1945. America only stepped in on the Allies' side for financial reasons; plenty of Americans were keen supporters of the Nazis, it was purely a business decision, not one based on morality or a desire to help, pure financial gain, so no, America didn't have to step in, it wanted to step in. There was never an okay time to use them, and using them opened up a can of worms that still affects the world today, in my opinion. It may have caused the Japanese to surrender but they were well on their way to that point before America dropped the bombs by all accounts.

lol, i love how Brits say America was "late to the war" but you have the audacity to say the war was over when Germany was defeated. Shows that the Brits think ww2 was only a European war. It was CREATED by Europe, but it wasn't just a EUROPEAN war. It was a WORLD WAR. (hence the name)

I love all you Brits, monday morning quarterbacking, the UK didn't give a **** about the pacific at that point, so easy to now say "well Japan wasn't really that important, they would have surrendered...maybe, probably..." :joker:

[arista]

Yes Pearl Harbor brought
America into the war
by then Hitler has declared war on America.

Japans sneak attack was well thought out.

[Z]

lol, i love how Brits say America was "late to the war" but you have the audacity to say the war was over when Germany was defeated. Shows that the Brits think ww2 was only a European war. It was CREATED by Europe, but it wasn't just a EUROPEAN war. It was a WORLD WAR. (hence the name)

What are you even talking about? You're quoting words that I didn't even type. I said the war in Europe was over when Germany was defeated, i.e. where the majority of the fighting had taken place precisely because it was created by Europe. The Soviet Union had the most casualties of World War II. Most of the brutal fighting took place on the Eastern front. America and Japan had their own separate conflict going on that America chose to settle by dropping two nuclear bombs on Japanese territory with the threat of dropping even more if they chose to carry on fighting. For all intents and purposes, the 'world' aspect of World War II ended in May 1945, because that's when the rest of the world put down the guns and started to clear away the rubble. Firstly I didn't say America was late to the war; but why are you even taking issue with that idea? It didn't become involved in World War II until later on. That is a fact. It became involved because it was being courted by both sides and the financial deals it made with the Allies were the more attractive proposition and that's what drove America into the war. The UK only finished paying back debts to America from World War II in the 21st century, for example.

[lostalex]

Yes Pearl Harbor brought
America into the war
by then Hitler has declared war on America.

Japans sneak attack was well thought out.

Not that well thought out... They thought America would be intimidated by it. Pushed further back into an isolationist hole.

Japan did not predict it would stir America into an all out fury.

They didn't expect to wake the sleeping giant.

[Z]

Not that well thought out... They thought America would be intimidated by it. Pushed further back into an isolationist hole.

Japan did not predict it would stir America into an all out fury.

They didn't expect to wake the sleeping giant.

Yeah I'll bet those Japanese commanders thought "nah this won't piss them off", definitely.

[lostalex]

Yeah I'll bet those Japanese commanders thought "nah this won't piss them off", definitely.

actually they did, they did genuinely think that the US would be intimidated by them.

America was trying to stay out of things at the time. America was not a major military power back then.

You don't seem to understand the situation if you don't understand that., America was not the World Power you know it as today, it was just a former british colony.

You really don't understand that America was not a superpower before ww2, do you? America had no interest in being a world power back then.

The people on this forum seem to have no historical perspective, they view everything from the modern lens. You cannot understand history if you look at it from a modern perspective, you can only understand history if you can see it through the eyes of the time.

The narrative is defined by the time.

[Z]

actually they did, they did genuinely think that the US would be intimidated by them.

America was trying to stay out of things at the time. America was not a major military power back then.

You don't seem to understand the situation if you don't understand that., America was not the World Power you know it as today, it was just a former british colony.

You really don't understand that America was not a superpower before ww2, do you? America had no interest in being a world power back then.

I understand the situation perfectly well. America had no desire to be drawn into the conflict unless it was on its own terms. The Japanese logic may well have been to attack American soil and intimidate America; but in what world would they have thought "this won't piss people off" exactly? Just as the Japanese vindictiveness inspired the surprise attack on Pearl Harbour, the USA got revenge (and more) by dropping two A-bombs on Japan. There is just no excuse for what they did to generations of Japanese people in my opinion, there are people alive today who are severely disabled and completely outcast from society because of complications of nuclear radiation. The USA used World War II to position itself as a global leader and to pretend that it was provoked into joining the war when it hadn't been mulling it over for years is just madness. Refugees were flooding over to American soil to get away from the war; Hitler's own nephew enlisted in the American military when he got the chance - America may not have entered the war for a couple of years but it was very much affected by it and was always going to be joining the war effort one way or another, it just took its time to pick a side.

[lostalex]

The USA didn't "use" the situation, we just realized that the entire world was going nuts, and no one else was going to stand up so we HAD to. We were FORCED to.

Europe and Asia were piles of ruble, and if the US didn't stand up, it would be left to Communist Russia to rebuild the world in it's image.

We had no choice. Don't act like we WANTED it, or planned it. We waited til the absolute last minute to get involved, we had really hoped that Europe could sort out it's own mess.

[lily.]

http://www.ftffpodcast.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/murica-18.jpg

[lostalex]

http://www.ingeniouspress.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/eagle_murica_da1.png

[Z]

The USA didn't "use" the situation, it just realized that the entire world was going nuts, and no one else was going to stand up so we HAD to. we were FORCED to. Europe and Asia were piles of Ruble, and if the US didn't stand up, it would be left to the Communist Rossia to rebuild the world in it's image.

We had no choice.

And I think this says more about your perception of World War II than it does about mine. You are choosing to ignore all the stone cold facts in favour of "America the great defender" and refusing to see past it. Of course the USA used the situation to its advantage; it became the world leader after World War II, do you think that happened accidentally? It had Western Europe paying it back for 60+ years (I'm not sure if other countries still owe the USA war reparations) - the USA didn't have to do anything, plenty of countries opted out of World War II. You even admit to the truth of the situation without realising it - America stepped in because if it didn't, someone else would have (the USSR) - America saw an opportunity and grabbed it with both hands. That doesn't mean America didn't stand up and haul ass to help win the war on behalf of the flagging European forces but I can't believe you're sitting here trying to tell me that it was some morality tale and the USA only got involved because it felt it had a duty to protect the world. That's bull****.

[lostalex]

And I think this says more about your perception of World War II than it does about mine. You are choosing to ignore all the stone cold facts in favour of "America the great defender" and refusing to see past it. Of course the USA used the situation to its advantage; it became the world leader after World War II, do you think that happened accidentally? It had Western Europe paying it back for 60+ years (I'm not sure if other countries still owe the USA war reparations) - the USA didn't have to do anything, plenty of countries opted out of World War II. You even admit to the truth of the situation without realising it - America stepped in because if it didn't, someone else would have (the USSR) - America saw an opportunity and grabbed it with both hands. That doesn't mean America didn't stand up and haul ass to help win the war on behalf of the flagging European forces but I can't believe you're sitting here trying to tell me that it was some morality tale and the USA only got involved because it felt it had a duty to protect the world. That's bull****.

right.... so you blame us for taking too long to get involved in the war, (we were LATE TO THE WAR) and then when we did come in, and save your asses, we get accused of planning to take over the world for getting involved, and it was our plan all along to become world powers!

:joker:

listen to yourself.

[Nedusa]

I don't think power was as centralized back then as you think it was. It was a fundamental racist Japanese philosophy against outsiders which led to their brutality. It was a racist ideology which they held in their hearts. It was not just a few brutal Japanese leaders forcing people do do what they did, it was a fundamental belief system.

You are trying to make it sound like superiors were standing over them forcing the Japanese people and soldiers to act brutally. It was the fundamental ideology of the Japanese people that was evil, not just the leadership.

There can be no storm without the rain.

Yes .........agree with this the Japanese seemed to revel in the inhuman way they treated allied POW, justifying it by saying these servicemen should not have allowed themselves to be captured alive therefore they are subhuman and worthy of any/all tortures that are then inflicted on them.

and Boy...!!! did the Japanese enjoy revelling in these tortures...sure they did !!!... so I think the contention that they have an evil streak hard wired into their collective DNA is well justified....!!!!

[Nedusa]

right.... so you blame us for taking too long to get involved in the war, (we were LATE TO THE WAR) and then when we did come in, and save your asses, we get accused of planning to take over the world for getting involved, and it was our plan all along to become world powers!

:joker:

listen to yourself.

Can we please stick to the topic of this Thread and NOT get derailed into a Europe v America debate

[lostalex]

Can we please stick to the topic of this Thread and NOT get derailed into a Europe v America debate

I'm not even sure what the topic of this thread is. the original post is pretty vague.

Is it about whether the US was right to use nuclear weapons on Japan? or what?

Arista doesn't really speak in clear sentences, so I can't really say for sure... :conf:

[Jesus.]

Yes .........agree with this the Japanese seemed to revel in the inhuman way they treated allied POW, justifying it by saying these servicemen should not have allowed themselves to be captured alive therefore they are subhuman and worthy of any/all tortures that are then inflicted on them.

and Boy...!!! did the Japanese enjoy revelling in these tortures...sure they did !!!... so I think the contention that they have an evil streak hard wired into their collective DNA is well justified....!!!!

And backed up with absolutely no evidence. All Germans enjoyed torturing Jews, all English people loved torturing everyone at one point, All Russians loved torturing it's own citizens, Every single Arab loved 9/11.

It's absolute nonsense, and I think you know it.

[lostalex]

And backed up with absolutely no evidence. All Germans enjoyed torturing Jews, all English people loved torturing everyone at one point, All Russians loved torturing it's own citizens, Every single Arab loved 9/11.

It's absolute nonsense, and I think you know it.

you are saying that because generalizations aren't 100% true it's not fair to make generalizations... but you are missing the point of generalizations...

by your logic we can't talk about any large scale issues, because all generalizations are unfair, right?

[Z]

right.... so you blame us for taking too long to get involved in the war, (we were LATE TO THE WAR) and then when we did come in, and save your asses, we get accused of planning to take over the world for getting involved, and it was our plan all along to become world powers!

:joker:

listen to yourself.

Right.............................................

That isn't what I said at all, where did you pull that one from? I didn't blame America for taking too long to get involved in the war, that's something you brought up that you claim I said (which I didn't). What I said was that America didn't get involved because it was trying to decide which side to take, for financial gain. Absolutely nothing wrong with that whatsoever, going to war is as much an economic decision as it is a political one seeing as when a country goes to war, its war efforts are dictated by the strength of its economy and you don't want to back the wrong horse and end up with an economy in tatters (see: Germany after 1945).

Where was I accusing America of anything? I'm pointing out stone cold hard facts. America became a global leading nation because it set up a network of debt collection and creating "special relationships" with Western European nations after World War II - it created institutions like NATO to form a network between these countries in order to create a sphere of influence that became increasingly important as the Soviet Union did the same and the Cold War escalated. Why are you even taking issue with what I'm saying? America became a global leader after World War II and still is now - that didn't happen accidentally, or do you think America somehow became a global leader by good fortune and it's just held onto that ability over the last 70 years by sheer fluke?

[Z]

I think it was wrong to drop nuclear bombs on Japan. It's sad enough when incidents like Chernobyl and Fukushima irreversibly damage the environment, leave areas uninhabitable, cause pollution and affect thousands of lives; without turning that disaster prone technology into a weaponised form used to punish innocent civilians who weren't hurting anyone. Evil is not hardwired into an entire nation's psyche from birth, evil actions are learned from people in charge teaching their subordinates; war brings the worst out in armies because of how desperate and frustrating wars are.

[lostalex]

I think it was wrong to drop nuclear bombs on Japan. It's sad enough when incidents like Chernobyl and Fukushima irreversibly damage the environment, leave areas uninhabitable, cause pollution and affect thousands of lives; without turning that disaster prone technology into a weaponised form used to punish innocent civilians who weren't hurting anyone. Evil is not hardwired into an entire nation's psyche from birth, evil actions are learned from people in charge teaching their subordinates; war brings the worst out in armies because of how desperate and frustrating wars are.

are you actually comparing nuclear power accidents to the worst war in human history?

i don't see how they comparable. accidents at power plants providing power for millions of homes, compared to dropping bombs on a nation that was trying to murder millions of lives...

not the same thing at all.

[Jesus.]

you are saying that because generalizations aren't 100% true it's not fair to make generalizations... but you are missing the point of generalizations...

by your logic we can't talk about any large scale issues, because all generalizations are unfair, right?

Not at all. If you want to say that all Japanese people have an evil trait, then by all means go for your life, but you're making a scientific claim in that instance, because what we know of genetics. It's no different, or less offensive as saying black people aren't as intelligent as white people.

If you want to generalise about English people moaning about weather, or cueing, then that's different - they are our idiosyncrasies. But when you dismiss a whole people as being this or that, then you need to do more than just state it.

[Z]

are you actually comparing nuclear power accidents to the worst war in human history?

i don't see how they comparable. accidents at power plants providing power for millions of homes, compared to dripping bombs in nations that were trying to murder millions of lives...

not the same thing at all.

No Alex, I'm not, and you know I'm not.

[lostalex]

Not at all. If you want to say that all Japanese people have an evil trait, then by all means go for your life, but you're making a scientific claim in that instance, because what we know of genetics. It's no different, or less offensive as saying black people aren't as intelligent as white people.

If you want to generalise about English people moaning about weather, or cueing, then that's different - they are our idiosyncrasies. But when you dismiss a whole people as being this or that, then you need to do more than just state it.

no, we were talking about specific actions by a specific nation.

you act like we can't say Japan did this, and Japan was that, because not EVERY SINGLE JAPANESE PERSON did it. then we can't talk about it at all, by that logic.

[Z]

no, we were talking about specific actions by a specific nation.

you act like we can't say Japan did this, and Japan was that, because not EVERY SINGLE JAPANESE PERSON did it. then we can't talk about it at all, by that logic.

You can say some Japanese people did this, some people in Japan were that; the government of Japan was that, but you can't make sweeping statements that everyone from one country is evil because they're from that country...

[Jesus.]

no, we were talking about specific actions by a specific nation.

you act like we can't say Japan did this, and Japan was that, because not EVERY SINGLE JAPANESE PERSON did it. then we can't talk about it at all, by that logic.

Then you've missed the point of our whole discussion in this thread. To claim that's what I'm saying is stupid. Why would I try and deny history? Read the post that Nedusa made, then read my reply again where I posted the Sanford prison documentary.

There is nothing wrong with highlighting and facing up to the historical actions of a country - be it England, the US, or Japan, but to assign those actions to inherent traits of a peoples is nonsensical to me, and in no way valid.

[Tom4784]

I don't think it's fair to paint all of Japan as monsters, just like with Germany there were likely a large section of Japanese society that didn't agree to what was going on but didn't have the means to do anything about it. If we were put in the same situation we'd most likely go along with whatever just to save ourselves, it's easy to judge the citizens of Japan or Germany but we've never lived under the kinds of governments that they did during the war.

A lot of armies committed atrocities in WW2 because each side was demonised and the soldiers on all sides were lead to believe that the enemy was less than human. War brings out the worst in people. It definitely brought out the worst in America, the dropping of the atomic bombs were one of the worst atrocities of WW2 and innocent people are still suffering from it today. There was no excuse for it, Japan was on their way to surredering anyway. It was just a cruel attack against Japan's civillians.

[lostalex]

You guys are just attacking the idea of generalizations in general. You are being too meta.

You are dissecting the idea of talking about Japan, instead of talking about Japan.

[Jesus.]

Well what do you actually want to say about Japan? I'm pretty sure we're all happy to discuss them, and I'm sure none of us would have issues discussing any unsavoury aspects of their past, but the issue here is that we wouldn't assign those actions to the fact they were Japanese.

[lostalex]

Well what do you actually want to say about Japan? I'm pretty sure we're all happy to discuss them, and I'm sure none of us would have issues discussing any unsavoury aspects of their past, but the issue here is that we wouldn't assign those actions to the fact they were Japanese.

no one was ever talking about every single japanese person that ever existed though, so why did you start talking about every single japnaese person?

I don't hate japnese people. :nono:

I have a sim that looks a little japanese and i love him almost just as much as my other sims.

[Z]

Well then what are you actually saying Alex?

[lostalex]

Well then what are you actually saying Alex?

Scots really don't get irony. :wavey:

[Z]

Scots really don't get irony. :wavey:

I don't think Americans do either.................

[lostalex]

I don't think Americans do either.................

yea, that's why it's ironic that i said that... you just proved my point. :wavey:

[Z]

yea, that's why it's ironic that i said that... you just proved my point.

:joker: You're ridiculous, never change :love:

[lostalex]

:joker: You're ridiculous, never change :love:

I promise <3

[Nedusa]

And backed up with absolutely no evidence. All Germans enjoyed torturing Jews, all English people loved torturing everyone at one point, All Russians loved torturing it's own citizens, Every single Arab loved 9/11.

It's absolute nonsense, and I think you know it.

No.......your wrong it's well documented and supported by masses of witness testimony.

The Japanese were brutal to their prisoners... not in doubt ..a fact !!!

I don't know why you don't know this it's universally accepted that the Japanese acted in this way. :puzzled::puzzled:

[Nedusa]

I don't think it's fair to paint all of Japan as monsters, just like with Germany there were likely a large section of Japanese society that didn't agree to what was going on but didn't have the means to do anything about it. If we were put in the same situation we'd most likely go along with whatever just to save ourselves, it's easy to judge the citizens of Japan or Germany but we've never lived under the kinds of governments that they did during the war.

A lot of armies committed atrocities in WW2 because each side was demonised and the soldiers on all sides were lead to believe that the enemy was less than human. War brings out the worst in people. It definitely brought out the worst in America, the dropping of the atomic bombs were one of the worst atrocities of WW2 and innocent people are still suffering from it today. There was no excuse for it, Japan was on their way to surredering anyway. It was just a cruel attack against Japan's civillians.

Well ...let's just hope Japan never gets into a warlike posture again and has a War with Britain which we lose and the Japanese become our occupiers..

You might have reason to change the tone of your post...:xyxwave:

[Jesus.]

No.......your wrong it's well documented and supported by masses of witness testimony.

The Japanese were brutal to their prisoners... not in doubt ..a fact !!!

I don't know why you don't know this it's universally accepted that the Japanese acted in this way. :puzzled::puzzled:

I'm not disputing their actions. I'm disputing your point that it is just part of their inherent make up. Feel as though I've made that specific point about 3,000 times in the last 3 pages.

I'm not disputing the events took place, I'm disputing it's because they were Japanese.

[lostalex]

I'm not disputing their actions. I'm disputing your point that it is just part of their inherent make up. Feel as though I've made that specific point about 3,000 times in the last 3 pages.

I'm not disputing the events took place, I'm disputing it's because they were Japanese.

yes you've made the same point over and over again, which is frustrating to everyone who keeps telling you that your point has nothing to do with the topic of Japan in WW2.

yes, we get it, you don't like generalizations, you object to the idea of condemning individual Japanese people. but we are discussing nations. you keep trying to make it about individuals.

You don't seem to understand the difference.

[Z]

Sorta relevant to the thread, maybe not, but Japan I believe is the most ethnically homogenous country in the world, something like 98-99% of the people who live in Japan are ethnically Japanese

[arista]

Sorta relevant to the thread, maybe not, but Japan I believe is the most ethnically homogenous country in the world, something like 98-99% of the people who live in Japan are ethnically Japanese


Yes they had the power to takeover China
before World War 2 started

[Tom4784]

Well ...let's just hope Japan never gets into a warlike posture again and has a War with Britain which we lose and the Japanese become our occupiers..

You might have reason to change the tone of your post...:xyxwave:

You could say that about any country.

It doesn't make economic sense of Japan to go to war with anyone, they would gain nothing from it. No point in painting Japan as a boogeyman when there isn't any danger of them going to war with us. How many Japanese products do we use in our day to day lives? How many TVs, Mobiles, consoles, tablets etc come from Japan? Why would they go to war with one of their biggest consumers?

Your 'point' is illogical. There is as much chance of Japan starting a war with us as Germany suddenly deciding to don the Nazi colours again and try to finish what they started, both are extremely unlikely.

[Livia]

The cruelty of the Japanese, although not literally hard-wired into their DNA, was hard-wired into their psyche. Their actions were as a result of hundreds of years of their culture. No one's surely going to dispute that. But we must not accuse them of cruelty, and when they refused to apologise to the few remaining survivors even after all that time, we said, okay. Hirohito, who was emperor of Japan when they were starving, beating, working and torturing our prisoners to death, died an old man, still emperor, comfortable in his own bed... and we say, okay. And yet... the BBC make one joke about Hiroshima and they're summoned to the Japanese embassy where they demanded the BBC apologise... and they DID!

We are required to forgive and forget. We're required to see the good in people now. However, it seems we're still required to continue to beat ourselves up over our colonialist past, a past way before anyone alive now. Forget he German and Japanese atrocities, committed within the living memory of some. But continue to be contrite about our own past. This country gave my family a home after the war when they arrived here broken and penniless, but the face of Britain people still wish to expose is the colonising aristocracy of a time gone by.

Forgive the Germans and the Japanese by all means. But never forget what they were once capable of.

[Tom4784]

The cruelty of the Japanese, although not literally hard-wired into their DNA, was hard-wired into their psyche. Their actions were as a result of hundreds of years of their culture. No one's surely going to dispute that. But we must not accuse them of cruelty, and when they refused to apologise to the few remaining survivors even after all that time, we said, okay. Hirohito, who was emperor of Japan when they were starving, beating, working and torturing our prisoners to death, died an old man, still emperor, comfortable in his own bed... and we say, okay. And yet... the BBC make one joke about Hiroshima and they're summoned to the Japanese embassy where they demanded the BBC apologise... and they DID!

We are required to forgive and forget. We're required to see the good in people now. However, it seems we're still required to continue to beat ourselves up over our colonialist past, a past way before anyone alive now. Forget he German and Japanese atrocities, committed within the living memory of some. But continue to be contrite about our own past. This country gave my family a home after the war when they arrived here broken and penniless, but the face of Britain people still wish to expose is the colonising aristocracy of a time gone by.

Forgive the Germans and the Japanese by all means. But never forget what they were once capable of.

But would we be any different if we lived under the same government as they did back then? I don't think we would be. We would be the same, just doing what we can in fear of our lives.

I also don't think any country was innocent when it came to cruelty in WW2, like I said before we demonised them as much as they demonised us. I doubt we treated PoWs any better but since we were the victors I'm guessing such cases were glossed over when it came to the history books.

Either way nothing justifies Hiroshima or Nagasaki, the bombing of cities is cowardly and the willful murder of civilians is the ultimate cowardice, especially considering that Japan was on the ropes. We played a part in killing thousands of civilians and damning generations of innocent people yet to be born to crippling illnesses and disease. Nothing justifies that response and it's no surprise that we're apologetic to Japan to this day over it. How many government and Army officials that would have been behind Pearl Harbour and the torturing of prisoners were in those cities compared to innocent civilians?

[lostalex]

But would we be any different if we lived under the same government as they did back then? I don't think we would be. We would be the same, just doing what we can in fear of our lives.

I also don't think any country was innocent when it came to cruelty in WW2, like I said before we demonised them as much as they demonised us. I doubt we treated PoWs any better but since we were the victors I'm guessing such cases were glossed over when it came to the history books.

Either way nothing justifies Hiroshima or Nagasaki, the bombing of cities is cowardly and the willful murder of civilians is the ultimate cowardice, especially considering that Japan was on the ropes. We played a part in killing thousands of civilians and damning generations of innocent people yet to be born to crippling illnesses and disease. Nothing justifies that response and it's no surprise that we're apologetic to Japan to this day over it. How many government and Army officials that would have been behind Pearl Harbour and the torturing of prisoners were in those cities compared to innocent civilians?

but countries did behave differently in WW2, and it's not fair to say that we're all the same, because we aren't all the same, and we weren't back then either.

I don't understand why some people keep insisting that we were. All countries were not all the same, Some countries behaved horribly, like awfully, and horrifically, and other countries did not reach the same levels of depravity. Why are some people trying to re0write history and say we are all equal?

Sorry, but no, not all countries are equal. Some countries are worse than others. We are not all equal.

And saying that all countries are equal or capable of the same things is denying that some countries behaved more admirally than others, and it's not fair to take away the fact that some countries did show more bravery and behaved with more dignity and were more admirable than others.

I think it's disgraceful to say that the USA or UK was just as capable of being as horrible as Japan and Germany. We weren't and we aren't.

It's basically saying we only did the right thing by CHANCE, and that any country could have been as evil.


No. It wasn't by chance. We did the right thing because that's who we are, and we deserve credit for that.

[Livia]

But would we be any different if we lived under the same government as they did back then? I don't think we would be. We would be the same, just doing what we can in fear of our lives.

I also don't think any country was innocent when it came to cruelty in WW2, like I said before we demonised them as much as they demonised us. I doubt we treated PoWs any better but since we were the victors I'm guessing such cases were glossed over when it came to the history books.

Either way nothing justifies Hiroshima or Nagasaki, the bombing of cities is cowardly and the willful murder of civilians is the ultimate cowardice, especially considering that Japan was on the ropes. We played a part in killing thousands of civilians and damning generations of innocent people yet to be born to crippling illnesses and disease. Nothing justifies that response and it's no surprise that we're apologetic to Japan to this day over it. How many government and Army officials that would have been behind Pearl Harbour and the torturing of prisoners were in those cities compared to innocent civilians?

You're very wrong to compare the British treatment of prisoners to the treatment meted out by Germany and especially Japan.

You forget how many millions of civilians suffered and died at the hands of the Nazis and the Japanese. And not just suffered and died... were tortured, or worked to death, then shot when they were no longer needed. Women, children, treated like animals. I don't condone the use of nuclear weapons, but I truly believe in this case, it was for the greater good. And had the Japanese - or the Germans - had nuclear weapons, do you think they would have hesitated for one minute to use them against us?

Really Dezzy, I respect you very much, you know that. But I have to say you need to look into the actions that led to Hiroshima. Unless you feel that the only humans that are worth anything are Japanese.

And before you say we're right to be apologetic to the Japanese, please... take some time to read some prisoners' accounts of their life under the Japanese. How these men, mostly dead now, woke up screaming night after night, remembering the horrors they saw and were put through. And then we can talk more if you want. But right now, I don't feel like you are in charge of all the facts.

[Tom4784]

but countries did behave differently in WW2, and it's not fair to say that we're all the same, because we aren't all the same, and we weren't back then either.

I don't understand why some people keep insisting that we were. All countries were not all the same, Some countries behaved horribly, like awfully, and horrifically, and other countries did not reach the same levels of depravity. Why are some people trying to re0write history and say we are all equal?

Sorry, but no, not all countries are equal. Some countries are worse than others. We are not all equal.

And saying tat all countries are equal or capable of the same things is denying that some countries behaved more admirally than others, and it's not fair to take away the fact that some cow tries did show more bravery and behaved with more dignity and were more admirable than others.

I think it's disgraceful to say that the USA or UK was just as capable of being as horrible as Japan and Germany. We weren't and we aren't.

What we did to Hiroshima and Nagasaki was not admirable, honourable, brave or dignified. It was pathetic, cruel and cowardly. It was a complete atrocity. Japan wasn't innocent either but what's worse? The torturing of PoW's or the mass murder of hundreds of thousands of innocent men, women and children plus causing mass biolgical ailments for generations to come? Japan did some terrible things but what we did to those two cities can never be justified.

[Z]

I think nuclear bombing Japan twice is a gigantic step too far regardless of how the Japanese chose to treat prisoners of war. Disagree with me by all means, but I don't think any amount of reading personal accounts of torture would change my mind about that - the actions of the Japanese military towards prisoners of war do not justify causing hundreds of thousands of deaths and causing damage to generations of people and irradiating entire cities.

[lostalex]

What we did to Hiroshima and Nagasaki was not admirable, honourable, brave or dignified. It was pathetic, cruel and cowardly. It was a complete atrocity. Japan wasn't innocent either but what's worse? The torturing of PoW's or the mass murder of hundreds of thousands of innocent men, women and children plus causing mass biolgical ailments for generations to come? Japan did some terrible things but what we did to those two cities can never be justified.

It was NOT cowardly to save 1 million American lives by putting an END to that HORRIBLE WAR!

how dare you.

1 Million Amwrican lives or even 1 more would have been a WASTE on a war that we didn't start and we didn't want but we DAMN SURE WERE GOING TO END!

We wanted an END TO IT!

and don't you dare call any soldier or airman a COWARD for wanting an end to it. America sacrificed FAR MORE than its share of sons in that war. SO don't you dare say we were cowards. America was NEVER cowardly in that war, and you only have breath in your lungs BECAUSE of those American lives that died for you. Americans died for your survival, how dare you say we were the cowards.

[Livia]

What we did to Hiroshima and Nagasaki was not admirable, honourable, brave or dignified. It was pathetic, cruel and cowardly. It was a complete atrocity. Japan wasn't innocent either but what's worse? The torturing of PoW's or the mass murder of hundreds of thousands of innocent men, women and children plus causing mass biolgical ailments for generations to come? Japan did some terrible things but what we did to those two cities can never be justified.

No one's saying nuclear weapons are the way to go. But you should remember that this came at the end of five years of war. Britain was almost on its knees... and it wasn't just POWs the Japanese tortured and killed, which is why I suggest you should look more into it. I think that if they knew then what we know now about the bombs they dropped, it would have been different. But it's okay to say that in hindsight. At the time, we and the other allies, were desperate for a solution.

Trying to apportion blame is futile. However, I am proud of Great Britain's actions in WW2, given the length of time they'd been fighting and the cost to the country both financially and in terms of lives. And I say that as the child of holocaust survivors who happen to be German, and not Japanese. But it's the same meat and different gravy to me. Something had to be done about Germany and Japan or the world as we know it today would be very different.

[Livia]

I think nuclear bombing Japan twice is a gigantic step too far regardless of how the Japanese chose to treat prisoners of war. Disagree with me by all means, but I don't think any amount of reading personal accounts of torture would change my mind about that - the actions of the Japanese military towards prisoners of war do not justify causing hundreds of thousands of deaths and causing damage to generations of people and irradiating entire cities.

Which is why I said look more into it. It wasn't just a couple of POWs.

Like I said to Dezzy, if they'd known then what we know now... it would have been different. Germany gassed 6 million of my people, and people still whine about Dresden being bombed, despite the fact Jewish slave workers who could have been killed any minute were cheering while the bombs dropped.

It's all well and good sitting in the comfort and safety of a home other people died to keep free, and say we were wrong.

[arista]

"Japan did some terrible things but what# we did to those two cities can never be justified. "


Yes but those Atomic Bombs got finished
with Hitlers Science men - who then became USA Citizens
it was a Rush as the Americans wanted real Big Tests done
before Russia built theirs

[Jesus.]

Isn't that what history is about? If you can't look at things objectively 70 years after the event, and reach a conclusion based on right or wrong, then the old line about failing to learn from history, means were bound to repeat the same mistakes, holds true.

Why isn't the goal to be better, rather than at the same level?

[Tom4784]

You're very wrong to compare the British treatment of prisoners to the treatment meted out by Germany and especially Japan.

You forget how many millions of civilians suffered and died at the hands of the Nazis and the Japanese. And not just suffered and died... were tortured, or worked to death, then shot when they were no longer needed. Women, children, treated like animals. I don't condone the use of nuclear weapons, but I truly believe in this case, it was for the greater good. And had the Japanese - or the Germans - had nuclear weapons, do you think they would have hesitated for one minute to use them against us?

Really Dezzy, I respect you very much, you know that. But I have to say you need to look into the actions that led to Hiroshima. Unless you feel that the only humans that are worth anything are Japanese.

And before you say we're right to be apologetic to the Japanese, please... take some time to read some prisoners' accounts of their life under the Japanese. How these men, mostly dead now, woke up screaming night after night, remembering the horrors they saw and were put through. And then we can talk more if you want. But right now, I don't feel like you are in charge of all the facts.

We could argue about the ifs and buts all night but at the end of the day, we had the atomic weapons, they didn't and we chose to use them when we were already winning. We could have won without them, we didn't need to harm two cities full of innocent people and damn their children to lives filled with suffering and pain.

How would you feel if you or your family was maimed and/or killed for no other reason than because your government went to war with a country with Atomic Weapons? You wouldn't get any say in the matter but you'd pay the price for it anyway. The people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki paid the price of their government's actions for no other reasons than where they lived.

Nothing can ever justify going after civilians in my eyes, it's just pathetic. Hell, those bombs killed PoWs too.... What we did to those innocent people is beyond justification.

[lostalex]

Isn't that what history is about? If you can't look at things objectively 70 years after the event, and reach a conclusion based on right or wrong, then the old line about failing to learn from history, means were bound to repeat the same mistakes, holds true.

Why isn't the goal to be better, rather than at the same level?

can't look at history objectively? you won't even let us look at history PERIOD without bitching about terminology and semantics. :nono:

Look who's talking.

and we don't have to try to be better, We're already better. That's the point you don't understand. You don't understand how good you have it dude.

[Z]

Which is why I said look more into it. It wasn't just a couple of POWs.

Like I said to Dezzy, if they'd known then what we know now... it would have been different. Germany gassed 6 million of my people, and people still whine about Dresden being bombed, despite the fact Jewish slave workers who could have been killed any minute were cheering while the bombs dropped.

It's all well and good sitting in the comfort and safety of a home other people died to keep free, and say we were wrong.

I'm well aware it wasn't just a couple of POWs. Of course it's all good and well for me to say I think it's wrong to nuclear bomb innocent civilians, I didn't live through World War II, but my opinion is that it was wrong to do so. I would hate to see another nuclear bomb be dropped anywhere in the world ever again. Looking at pictures and reading interviews with hibakusha in Japan is just tragic on so many levels; these people are outcast in society for something that they had nothing to do with, I don't know how anyone can say that people deserve to be nuclear bombed, I mean it's just cruel. Obviously at the time emotions were running high and the war had been long and arduous and this was America's big secret weapon coming to fruition but to me it just came across as the ultimate muscle flexing exercise in modern history, it was unnecessary and vicious.

[Nedusa]

You could say that about any country.

It doesn't make economic sense of Japan to go to war with anyone, they would gain nothing from it. No point in painting Japan as a boogeyman when there isn't any danger of them going to war with us. How many Japanese products do we use in our day to day lives? How many TVs, Mobiles, consoles, tablets etc come from Japan? Why would they go to war with one of their biggest consumers?

Your 'point' is illogical. There is as much chance of Japan starting a war with us as Germany suddenly deciding to don the Nazi colours again and try to finish what they started, both are extremely unlikely.

I know....I know.....Calm down !!!! I was talking Hypothetically, I know currently Japan doesn't pose a serious threat to the UK or NATO or any Superpower..

My point was that I'm glad they don't pose a threat because I for one, based on their strange philosophy that being taken a prisoner makes you unfit to be treated as a human being and subsequently fair game for mis-treatment abuse,rape,torture an death.....would not want to be around if they were to become our conquerers.....

I would prefer to take my chances with the German armed forces any day

[lostalex]

I want the people that think all countries are equal to actually go live in some other countries.

Go live in Russia, or Cuba, or China, or any communist country, and then come back and tell me that we are all the same, that we are all equal. :joker:

You have no idea what you are talking about.

We are not all equal, we are better.

[arista]

I want the people that think all countries are equal to actually go live in some other countries.

Go live in Russia, or Cuba, or China, or any communist country, and then come back and tell me that we are all the same, that we are all equal. :joker:

You have no idea what you are talking about.

We are not all equal, we are better.


true

[Tom4784]

I want the people that think all countries are equal to actually go live in some other countries.

Go live in Russia, or Cuba, or China, or any communist country, and then come back and tell me that we are all the same, that we are all equal. :joker:

You have no idea what you are talking about.

We are not all equal, we are better.

No one ever said we were equal? I'm just saying that no one came away squeaky clean after WW2, both sides committed atrocities.

[Jesus.]

can't look at history objectively? you won't even let us look at history PERIOD without bitching about terminology and semantics. :nono:

Look who's talking.

and we don't have to try to be better, We're already better. That's the point you don't understand. You don't understand how good you have it dude.

You're better than that reply. I know that much.

The only thing I've really stated repeatedly in this thread is that you can't assign traits that don't exist (like evil) to a whole nation of people.

[Z]

It'd be like claiming everyone from France is a pervert because they're French or everyone from Norway is a psychopath because they're from Norway. I don't understand why you would believe in that logic.

[lostalex]

You're better than that reply. I know that much.

The only thing I've really stated repeatedly in this thread is that you can't assign traits that don't exist (like evil) to a whole nation of people.

again you keep nit picking about the WHOLE nation, as if you can't talk about countries unless you account for every single individual....

You are so adverse to generalizations. Which is fair enough, i agree generalizations are obnoxious. but you can't have discussions about large issues without using some generalizations.

You are shutting down the conversation by using the exceptions and the outliers, how do you have a conversations about large groups of people and nations if you don't use generalizations though?

[Z]

again you keep nit picking about the WHOLE nation, as if you can't talk about countries unless you account for every single individual....

You are so adverse to generalizations. Which is fair enough, i agree generalizations are obnoxious. but you can't have discussions about large issues without using some generalizations.

You are shutting down the conversation by using the exceptions and the outliers, how do you have a conversations about large groups of people and nations if you don't use generalizations though?

By making a qualifying statement like "many ___ are this" or "during World War II, a lot of ____ did that" - instead of just writing off an entire group of people with an offensive label like "they're all evil" or whatever the case may be.

[lostalex]

It'd be like claiming everyone from France is a pervert because they're French or everyone from Norway is a psychopath because they're from Norway. I don't understand why you would believe in that logic.

as an American i'm used to being generalized about, and guess what, all of the generalizations, although not true for ME, still have some truth to them and most of the topics are to do with things that are worth having conversations aout in america...

American stereotypes... obesity, gun laws, foreign policy, all things that are worth talking about. there are ways of talking about things in a general sense in a respectful way,. just because every American doesn't own a gun doesn't mean that we can't tok about America's gun laws.

I could just shut down every conversation by saying,. NOT ALL AMERICANS OWN GUNS! i don't own a gun, i've never seen someone use a gun or threaten anyone with a gun, but i can still have a conversation with someone about gun laws in America without immediately shutting them down screaming about how dare you generalize about me!

IT's okay to talk about issues and use generalizations if you do it in a respectful way/

[Jesus.]

again you keep nit picking about the WHOLE nation, as if you can't talk about countries unless you account for every single individual....

You are so adverse to generalizations. Which is fair enough, i agree generalizations are obnoxious. but you can't have discussions about large issues without using some generalizations.

You are shutting down the conversation by using the exceptions and the outliers, how do you have a conversations about large groups of people and nations if you don't use generalizations though?

Because people have repeatedly labelled whole nations in this thread as possessing characteristics it's impossible to have.

That doesn't make it impossible to discuss, it means you have to try harder if I can shut down your main argument by pointing out one absolutely obvious flaw in your logic.

Having discussions about large groups of people is really easy, as long as the starting point isn't those little ****ing Japs with their anger issues and penchant for torture. Unless you're joking of course, then if that's the case - **** the little kamikaze bastards.

If you feel that does restrict your ability to discuss these things, then personally, I would start with examining my own logic (or lack thereof) prior to attacking someone else's point which has been expressed simply and clearly, and backed up by others.

[Z]

as an American i'm used to being generalized about, and guess what, all of the generalizations, although not true for ME, still have some truth to them and most of the topics are to do with things that are worth having conversations aout in america...

American stereotypes... obesity, gun laws, foreign policy, all things that are worth talking about. there are ways of talking about things in a general sense in a respectful way,. just because every American doesn't own a gun doesn't mean that we can't tok about America's gun laws.

I could just shut down every conversation by saying,. NOT ALL AMERICANS OWN GUNS!

There's a huge difference between generalising about mindsets ("Japanese people are evil") and actual issues ("America has a problem with obesity/guns") - do you not see the difference? Are you the same as every other American? No, you're you and everybody else is everybody else. There might be some aspects of your personality and outlook on life that are shaped by your nationality, which would in this case explain why so many Japanese soldiers committed acts of cruelty in WWII, but that doesn't mean all Japanese people are uninitiated psychopaths just waiting for an unfortunate Westerner to turn their back so they can torture them... And especially to judge a country based on something that happened 70+ years ago is a bit ridiculous; are all Germans Nazis right now in 2014? No. The world has moved on, it's a very different country now. Were all Germans ever Nazis? No, the Nazis were a political party, they had supporters and they had people who disagreed with them.

[lostalex]

There's a huge difference between generalising about mindsets ("Japanese people are evil") and actual issues ("America has a problem with obesity/guns") - do you not see the difference? Are you the same as every other American? No, you're you and everybody else is everybody else. There might be some aspects of your personality and outlook on life that are shaped by your nationality, which would in this case explain why so many Japanese soldiers committed acts of cruelty in WWII, but that doesn't mean all Japanese people are uninitiated psychopaths just waiting for an unfortunate Westerner to turn their back so they can torture them... And especially to judge a country based on something that happened 70+ years ago is a bit ridiculous; are all Germans Nazis right now in 2014? No. The world has moved on, it's a very different country now. Were all Germans ever Nazis? No, the Nazis were a political party, they had supporters and they had people who disagreed with them.

Who said Japanese people were evil? Say their name, because it would be racist to say that and you should report anyone who said that. No one said that. There's a difference between saying Japan's actions in ww2 were evil vs. Japanese people are evil.

You(not only you) are the one manipulating everything said about Japan's actions and behaviors as a nation, into personalized attacks on Japanese people, and it's obnoxious.

[Z]

Who said Japanese people were evil? Say their name, because it would be racist to say that and you should report anyone who said that. No one said that. There's a difference between saying Japan's actions in ww2 were evil vs. Japanese people are evil.

You(not only you) are the one manipulating everything said about Japan's actions and behaviors as a nation, into personalized attacks on Japanese people, and it's obnoxious.

How did this get flipped round onto me when I've been the one saying it's not fair to generalise people exactly? I'm saying it's wrong to generalise an entire nation of people and claim they all think the same way or believe the same things because of their nationality.

[lostalex]

How did this get flipped round onto me when I've been the one saying it's not fair to generalise people exactly? I'm saying it's wrong to generalise an entire nation of people and claim they all think the same way or believe the same things because of their nationality.

but you are one of the people making it seem like anything that anyone says about Japan, is some sort of attack on Japanese people. You are not being fair to the people who have made legitimate comments about Japan as a nation during that time period.

[Z]

but you are one of the people making it seem like anything that anyone says about Japan, is some sort of attack on Japanese people. You are not being fair to the people who have made legitimate comments about Japan as a nation during that time period.

That's not my aim whatsoever nor what I've even been discussing? We've lost sight of the point (was there ever one? :laugh:) - dropping nuclear bombs has never and will never be a positive course of action, in my opinion. As Japan is the only country in the world to have been the victim of a nuclear bombing (on two occasions) I can see why you think that means I'm defending the Japanese people, but I'm not really, I'd think it was wrong if they were dropped on any country's territory in an act of aggression. It was an unnecessarily overwhelming course of action that sought to destroy Japan, not beat it into submission, but destroy it. The US government was ruthless in its approach and showed no regard for the Japanese people. I find that wrong. That doesn't mean I therefore think it was okay that the Japanese people committed atrocities in the war, there isn't always a right and wrong perspective in every situation. Japan did some ****ty things and the USA responded with two almighty ****tier things that have destroyed Japanese lives and land for generations to come. I hope that the world has learned from this lesson and we'll never see that repeated ever again.

[lostalex]

That's not my aim whatsoever nor what I've even been discussing? We've lost sight of the point (was there ever one? :laugh:) - dropping nuclear bombs has never and will never be a positive course of action, in my opinion. As Japan is the only country in the world to have been the victim of a nuclear bombing (on two occasions) I can see why you think that means I'm defending the Japanese people, but I'm not really, I'd think it was wrong if they were dropped on any country's territory in an act of aggression. It was an unnecessarily overwhelming course of action that sought to destroy Japan, not beat it into submission, but destroy it. The US government was ruthless in its approach and showed no regard for the Japanese people. I find that wrong. That doesn't mean I therefore think it was okay that the Japanese people committed atrocities in the war, there isn't always a right and wrong perspective in every situation. Japan did some ****ty things and the USA responded with two almighty ****tier things that have destroyed Japanese lives and land for generations to come. I hope that the world has learned from this lesson and we'll never see that repeated ever again.

well i disagree with you, I think Japan did some ****ty things, and US was more than compassionate to Japan during that war. I think the USA did was we thought was the best for Japan and the world, and i think history has proved the USA's actions were the right actions.

Japan is a strong and free nation today. The USA could have turned Japan into a waste land if we wanted, but instead we supported them after the war, and did everything we could to make them a stronger, better, free'er country. I don't think you can fault the USA in our treatment of Japan post ww2. and i think you could say the same for Germany and all of western Europe.

The USA could have been like the Soviet Union after the war, and just proclaimed countries to be our territory like Russia did to eastern Europe (and if not for the bomb, i think russia would also have started to move to Asia), but we didn't. Instead we helped them rebuild themselves and encouraged them to be free democratic countries. i really don't think you can fault the USA after WW2. I think we did things very right.

[Z]

well i disagree with you, I think Japan did some ****ty things, and US was more than compassionate to Japan during that war. I think the USA did was we thought was the best for Japan and the world, and i think history has proved the USA's actions were the right actions.

Japan is a strong and free nation today. The USA could have turned Japan into a waste land if we wanted, but instead we supported them after the war, and did everything we could to make them a stronger, better, free'er country. I don't think you can fault the USA in our treatment of Japan post ww2. and i think you could say the same for Germany and all of western Europe.

The USA could have been like the Soviet Union after the war, and just proclaimed countries to be our territory like Russia did to eastern Europe (and if not for the bomb, i think russia would also have started to move to Asia), but we didn't. Instead we helped them rebuild themselves and encouraged them to be free democratic countries. i really don't think you can fault the USA after WW2. I think we did things very right.

I agree with you about the post war stuff; but the USA financially gained from those situations let us not forget, this wasn't an exercise in charity, it was about making profits and creating a sphere of influence - the difference between the USA and the USSR in their approach is that the USA was all about positive encouragement and growth whereas the USSR treated its sphere of influence with negative oppression and drastic 5 year plans that pushed its people to the limit. This is not a criticism of the USA, it's just that that's how the USA partly managed to consolidate its position as a global superpower.

Clearly we'll never agree on the issue of the rights and wrongs of using nuclear technology in a weaponised form so there's not much point going back and forth on it anymore with you.

[lostalex]

I agree with you about the post war stuff; but the USA financially gained from those situations let us not forget, this wasn't an exercise in charity, it was about making profits and creating a sphere of influence - the difference between the USA and the USSR in their approach is that the USA was all about positive encouragement and growth whereas the USSR treated its sphere of influence with negative oppression and drastic 5 year plans that pushed its people to the limit. This is not a criticism of the USA, it's just that that's how the USA partly managed to consolidate its position as a global superpower.

Clearly we'll never agree on the issue of the rights and wrongs of using nuclear technology in a weaponised form so there's not much point going back and forth on it anymore with you.

America paid in blood with thousands of young boy's lives. Our children. That blood was absolutely charity. How dare you imply that we lost our sons for profit.

You have such a cynical and twisted view of things, and i can't help but notice it's against the US mostly. It's still upsetting to me how Europeans need to justify America saving you by thinking America only did it for profit. It's so twisted and unfair. Shame on you.

Europe is still not properly grateful to America for what we did to save you.

[Kizzy]

If you want to be fastidious modern day Americans decend from Europeans I guess.
Anyhow.... Is what our government is doing to denigrate the 'underclass' in this country an example of the
Stanford prison experiment?
'Them' and 'us'... divide and conquer, old..infirm, incompetant, incapacitated = drain on resources surplus to requirements.

[lostalex]

If you want to be fastidious modern day Americans decend from Europeans I guess.
Anyhow.... Is what our government is doing to denigrate the 'underclass' in this country an example of the
Stanford prison experiment?
'Them' and 'us'... divide and conquer, old..infirm, incompetant, incapacitated = drain on resources surplus to requirements.

Who are you talking to?