Parents raise their son as a boy and a girl so he won't grow up to be aggressive...

[Ammi]

..'gender neutral parenting'...thoughts..?...


Max Price is a happy, healthy one-year-old boy who spent yesterday morning playing with his vast collection of toy cars, planes, tractors, and dinosaurs.

Dressed in a red checked lumberjack shirt and rust-coloured jeans, he shouted ‘beep beep!’ and giggled with delight while pushing a plastic motorbike around the living room of his family home.

Then, after lunch, a strange transformation occurred.

Max scampered upstairs to his bedroom with his 23-year-old mother, Lisa, and re-emerged several minutes later wearing a dark blue, knee-length dress decorated with pink flamingos.

He swiftly grabbed a blonde-haired doll, sat her in a pink plastic pram, and took her on a short walk, stopping only when it was time to pretend to breastfeed her.

Later in the afternoon, the child collected several more dolls, found a selection of pink toy cups and saucers, and staged an impromptu tea party.

Max, who turns two later this month and lives in Walsall, is being raised according to a radical technique known as ‘gender-neutral parenting’.

It means Lisa and her husband, Martin, 34, encourage him to wear both boys’ and girls’ clothes, and to play with conventionally female – as well as male – toys.

Rather than being worried if he decides not to play football, and asks instead for someone to paint his fingernails with glittery polish, they instead see it as a form of cute self-expression.

‘If Max wants to wear a pink tutu and fairy wings, then he can wear it,’ says Lisa. ‘He’s just expressing himself. I don’t want to put him in a certain box and treat him that way. I want to teach him to be whatever he wants to be. He can pick his own clothes and, as long as they’re warm enough for the winter, I’ll get him whatever he wants.’

Lisa and Martin live with two elder children – Brandon, ten, and Mia, seven – from Martin’s previous relationship, who are raised along more traditional lines. They also share the terraced home with a hamster called Simon, two cats, Tigger and Pixie, and a German Shepherd called Roxy.

Visitors to the bustling home tend to be surprised, but ‘mostly supportive’, of their decision to pursue gender-neutral parenting.

‘You get the odd funny look, and a bit of hostility, but once we explain how we are bringing our son up, and why, people tend to understand,’ says Lisa

‘I hope that Max won’t get teased when he’s older. But part of what we are trying to do with Max is to instil such a sense of confidence, and a sense of who he is, that he won’t care what anyone else thinks.’


Lisa, a full-time housewife, took the decision to allow Max to identify as either a girl or a boy 12 months ago, after seeing high-profile rape cases being discussed on parenting websites. ‘Gender stereotypes can be so damaging


‘They teach little boys to be aggressive and dominant over women,’ she argues. ‘There’s research out there saying that the whole “boys will be boys” thing basically teaches lads that it’s OK to be a certain way, because it’s in their nature to be aggressive. It’s detrimental for them and for females.’

The decision was fully supported by Martin, an unemployed courier. ‘I think my husband is more of a feminist than I am,’ she says. ‘His biggest concern about the whole thing is usually “does Max have the right shoes to go with that dress!”’

Martin, for his part, adds: ‘My parents told me that I played with my sister’s dolls as a child and it doesn’t bother me. I can’t see why it would bother anyone.’

They are adamant that Max has thrived under the gender-neutral regime, pointing out that he is able to string three or four-word sentences together, and is ‘almost’ potty-trained.


The concept of gender-neutral parenting first became popular among feminists in America during the 1970s, when it inspired the actress Marlo Thomas to write a best-selling children’s book called Free To Be… You and Me. Recently, it has experienced a small revival

In 2011, a Canadian couple made headlines after refusing to reveal the gender of their new-born child Storm in what they called ‘a tribute to freedom and choice’.

The following year, a Cambridgeshire couple, Beck Laxton and Kieran Cooper, revealed they were raising their child Sasha as gender neutral to allow his or her ‘real personality’ to shine through.

In normal circumstances, Max would be required to start wearing gender-specific clothes when he starts at school. However Lisa and Martin have a contingency plan that will allow him to continue dressing as he pleases.

‘We’re planning on home educating Max,’ says Lisa, who was herself home-schooled. ‘However, if he does eventually choose to go to school, and wants to wear a girl’s uniform, I certainly won’t stop him.’

She adds: ‘It doesn’t matter if he’s homosexual, bisexual, transsexual or asexual as far as I’m concerned. I didn’t give birth to him to say “I’m only going to love you if you’re this way”. I love him for who he is.’





http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2559748/If-Max-wants-wear-pink-tutu-fairy-wings-Parents-raise-son-boy-AND-girl-wont-grow-aggressive.html

[Ammi]

u2KE-T6X3zs

[Jords]

fgs

[lostalex]

there's no such thing as boys clothes and girls clothes, or boys toys and girls toys.

It sounds like a fascinating experiment. It can't be any more damaging than "traditional" parenting, which already leads to the violence, rape, and murder rates we have in society now.

[Cherie]

there's no such thing as boys clothes and girls clothes, or boys toys and girls toys.

It sounds like a fascinating experiment. It can't be any more damaging than "traditional" parenting, which already leads to the violence, rape, and murder rates we have in society now.

What about the "traditional parenting" that leads to none of the above, can we have a round of applause for that?

[lostalex]

[/B]

What about the "traditional parenting" that leads to none of the above, can we have a round of applause for that?

I don't think we should congratulate people just for NOT doing horrible things.

That's like saying we should give a round of applause to a man just for NOT beating his wife. You don't deserve praise for just being a decent human being.

Maybe i deserve a round of applause for brushing my teeth this morning. lol

[AnnieK]

I'm not sure about this...surely it will lead to more confusion in the child? I can get allowing him to play with "girls" toys but I'm not sure about dressing him in girls clothes. Children need to determine their own identity and self awareness. The sentiment is good I think, most parents love their children unconditionally regardless of sex, future sexual orientation etc.

[lostalex]

I'm not sure about this...surely it will lead to more confusion in the child? I can get allowing him to play with "girls" toys but I'm not sure about dressing him in girls clothes. Children need to determine their own identity and self awareness. The sentiment is good I think, most parents love their children unconditionally regardless of sex, future sexual orientation etc.

in many parts of the world wearing a dress or skirt is not masculine or feminine...scotland, africa, asia, the middle east, the pacific... they all have traditional male clothes that we'd consider a dress or skirt.

[Nedusa]

This kid isn't going to be mixed up or confused as to his/her sexuality at all. Hopefully the presence of genitals may help this child decide what gender he/she is..

I wish parents like this would stop experimenting with their children for their own personal ends. This child could be permanently emotionally damaged due this ridiculous PC nonsense

Whatever next...???

[lostalex]

This kid isn't going to be mixed up or confused as to his/her sexuality at all. Hopefully the presence of genitals may help this child decide what gender he/she is..

I wish parents like this would stop experimenting with their children for their own personal ends. This child could be permanently emotionally damaged due this ridiculous PC nonsense

Whatever next...???

what evidence do you have for your conclusions? or are you just reacting based on stereotypes?

There are plenty of emotionally damaged people who grew up being forced to play with certain toys and forced to wear certain clothes, so how is it any different?

I think the parents saying to the child that what toys you play with and what clothes you wear are NOT important is a much better message to teach a child than the parents who force a child to only play with certain toys or wear certain clothes based on a bigoted society's norms.

[lostalex]

I think all the people criticizing these parents should watch the movie Billy Elliot. :hmph:

[Cherie]

what evidence do you have for your conclusions? or are you just reacting based on stereotypes?

There are plenty of emotionally damaged people who grew up being forced to play with certain toys and forced to wear certain clothes, so how is it any different?

I think the parents saying to the child that what toys you play with and what clothes you wear are NOT important is a much better message to teach a child than the parents who force a child to only play with certain toys or wear certain clothes based on a bigoted society's norms.


what evidence do you have to support your belief that "traditional parenting" turns people into murderers and rapists, if you look into the backgrounds of some serial killers it is sometimes the case that their upbringing has been far from traditional! so bang goes that theory. There are good and bad people in the world, some bad parents will end up turning out fantastic adults and some good parents will have offspring who turn out to be evil bastards.

[lostalex]

what evidence do you have to support your belief that "traditional parenting" turns people into murderers and rapists, if you look into the backgrounds of some serial killers it is sometimes the case that their upbringing has been far from traditional! so bang goes that theory. There are good and bad people in the world, some bad parents will end up turning out fantastic adults and some good parents will have offspring who turn out to be evil bastards.

i never claimed to have evidence, that's why all i said was, it can't be any worse than what parents do now...

[Benjamin]

I don't see the big issue here. Everybody has different ways of parenting, and that is their choice; whether people believe it to be incorrect or not their opinion really doesn't mean too much, especially considering how often the "best" ways to raise your children change all the time (half the time contradicting the "best" ways in time gone by).

[Marc]

Odd

[Cherie]

I don't see the big issue here. Everybody has different ways of parenting, and that is their choice; whether people believe it to be incorrect or not their opinion really doesn't mean too much, especially considering how often the "best" ways to raise your children change all the time (half the time contradicting the "best" ways in time gone by).

.

The parents are doing what they consider to be in the best interests of the child, end of the day he is 1, by the time he is 3 he may have a very different view of being dressed in fairy wings and dresses or he may not, there is a long road ahead for them either way with lots of good and bad decisions to be made. No parent gets it absolutely right all the time and if they tell you they do don't believe them!

[Niall]

I kind of really like this idea. The gender binary creates so many awful issues within society so to see people trying to tackle it within their own families is kind of wonderful to me. Not to mention that it gives the child as much room as possible to express themselves; there's no pressure on them to be the ideal boy or girl. It's a great way of doing things I think.

[Kyle]

Well I was brought up with Action men, hornby train sets and football tops. I wonder when I will start raping women and beating up pensioners. :think:

[lostalex]

Well I was brought up with Action men, hornby train sets and football tops. I wonder when I will start raping women and beating up pensioners. :think:

What does anything you said have to do with this topic?

That's like saying "well i smoke and don't have cancer, so why are so many people saying that smoking causes cancer?"

Forcing gender roles, especially hyp[er-masculine roles on children is damaging, and i would argue the school shootings in the US have a lot to do with reinforcing hyp[er masculine gender roles on males, because thane they can't live up to them, they feel the need to make those kind of hyper masculine actions to prove how powerful and dominant they are. They are frustrated , they are told that in order to be a "real man" they have to be dominant and aggressive. Most of them are young men who feel emasculated by society, told that they aren't real men because they aren't dominant enough. They only feel the need to be masculine to begin with because society tells them that being masculine means being aggressive and violent and dominant.

I don't think there's anything wrong with telling boys that you don't have to be hyper masculine to be a REAL MAN>

just like there's nothing wrong with telling girls that it's okay to be confident and assertive to be a REAL WOMAN>

[Kyle]

What does anything you said have to do with this topic?

That's like saying "well i smoke and don't have cancer, so why are so many people saying that smoking causes cancer?"


No it isn't. There's scientific evidence to correlate smoking with lung cancer. If you have scientific evidence that says that says rape and violence in society is the result of your interpretation of "traditional parenting" then put it forth.

[Nedusa]

what evidence do you have for your conclusions? or are you just reacting based on stereotypes?

There are plenty of emotionally damaged people who grew up being forced to play with certain toys and forced to wear certain clothes, so how is it any different?

I think the parents saying to the child that what toys you play with and what clothes you wear are NOT important is a much better message to teach a child than the parents who force a child to only play with certain toys or wear certain clothes based on a bigoted society's norms.

Oh please...... Gender identity is important to a child , it was a thousand years ago and still will be in a thousand years time.

If he is a boy then please do not try and treat him like a girl and vice versa...

We have no right to mess with children's heads like this.. It is thoughtless and irresponsible....

[lostalex]

No it isn't. There's scientific evidence to correlate smoking with lung cancer. If you have scientific evidence that says that says rape and violence in society is the result of your interpretation of "traditional parenting" then put it forth.

well we have evidence that doing things the same way for the past 100 years causes all of the problems we have in society today. right?

society today is based on what parents have "traditionally" been doing... right?

[lostalex]

Oh please...... Gender identity is important to a child , it was a thousand years ago and still will be in a thousand years time.

If he is a boy then please do not try and treat him like a girl and vice versa...

We have no right to mess with children's heads like this.. It is thoughtless and irresponsible....

but boys and girls, especially at the ages BEFORE puberty, have no differences. it is all influence. And don't you think it can be damaging to teach boys that they SHOULD be aggressive and violent. Telling boys that being aggressive is part of being a boy, and if you are not aggressive you aren't a "real man".... You don't see how that can be damaging? really?

[Ammi]

'I hope that Max won’t get teased when he’s older. But part of what we are trying to do with Max is to instil such a sense of confidence, and a sense of who he is, that he won’t care what anyone else thinks.’


..that to me seems a contradiction because I can see that Max will almost certainly get teased and it’s very difficult to instil confidence in a child who is being teased, when we’re very young ‘fitting in’ is very important to us..it’s their decision of course but I really wonder if they’re thinking it all through and whether it really is in the best interests for Max or just something they want to try out...I’m really not sure about this at all..I think as people we tend to associate things with memories/good experiences/bad experiences etc and if Max gets badly teased because of his parent’s decision to do this and that makes him terribly unhappy, then rather than it help him to grow up to not have prejudices and intolerances etc, it could actually do the exact opposite because cross-dressing etc could evoke painful memories and unhappiness...?...hopefully we get to a stage in our lives when we don't care what anyone else thinks, but that stage is not when we're a young child...just playing devil’s advocate...

[lostalex]

'I hope that Max won’t get teased when he’s older. But part of what we are trying to do with Max is to instil such a sense of confidence, and a sense of who he is, that he won’t care what anyone else thinks.’


..that to me seems a contradiction because I can see that Max will almost certainly get teased and it’s very difficult to instil confidence in a child who is being teased, when we’re very young ‘fitting in’ is very important to us..it’s their decision of course but I really wonder if they’re thinking it all through and whether it really is in the best interests for Max or just something they want to try out...I’m really not sure about this at all..I think as people we tend to associate things with memories/good experiences/bad experiences etc and if Max gets badly teased because of his parent’s decision to do this and that makes him terribly unhappy, then rather than it help him to grow up to not have prejudices and intolerances etc, it could actually do the exact opposite because cross-dressing etc could evoke painful memories and unhappiness...?...hopefully we get to a stage in our lives when we don't care what anyone else thinks, but that stage is not when we're a young child...just playing devil’s advocate...

Teaching a child that they should repress themselves just so they don't get bullied is horrible though.

We should be trying to alter the behavior of the bullies, not the behavior of the kids that are being bullied.

Don't you agree?

[lostalex]

I think it's interesting that everyone in this thread is assuming that this kid will end up being bullied, and never for one second thinks that this kid might BE a bully to other kids....

Isn't that interesting?

What does that mean that no one here is worried about this kid becoming a bully, they just assume he will be a victim. and why aren't you more worried about the Bullies, and stopping them, instead of worrying about who will be the victim of bullying?

[Ammi]

Teaching a child that they should repress themselves just so they don't get bullied is horrible though.

We should be trying to alter the behavior of the bullies, not the behavior of the kids that are being bullied.

Don't you agree?

..yeah I do totally Alex, but his gender is male so I don't see that it's repressing him for him to be dressed as male...that's not enforcing anything aggressive or 'macho' on him...

[Kyle]

but boys and girls, especially at the ages BEFORE puberty, have no differences. it is all influence. And don't you think it can be damaging to teach boys that they SHOULD be aggressive and violent. Telling boys that being aggressive is part of being a boy, and if you are not aggressive you aren't a "real man".... You don't see how that can be damaging? really?

Who is teaching their male children to be aggressive and violent? Were you raised in a gladiator arena or something?

[lostalex]

..yeah I do totally Alex, but his gender is male so I don't see that it's repressing him for him to be dressed as male...that's not enforcing anything aggressive or 'macho' on him...

but there is no such thing as "dressing as a male"...

no one complains when a girl wears jeans or boots.

qYwgG2oyUbA

[lostalex]

Who is teaching their male children to be aggressive and violent? Were you raised in a gladiator arena or something?

i don't have the time to explain that if you don't understand, you obviously have no cultural awareness of the pressure placed on boys.

[Ammi]

but there is no such thing as "dressing as a male"...

no one complains when a girl wears jeans or boots.

qYwgG2oyUbA

..but at that young age, there is what your peers are wearing as a boy or a girl..that doesn't determine anything else about your character or sexuality etc but it does help children to 'fit in' and when I say fit in, I mean in a sense that their parents aren't trying to encourage something that would make them vulnerable to being bullied and being terribly unhappy...because surely that would be selfish..

[Kate!]

i don't have the time to explain that if you don't understand, you obviously have no cultural awareness of the pressure placed on boys.

Bit patronising? :shrug:

My view, these parents are actively fostering confusion in this child. It'd be all well and good that if your child showed signs of WANTING to dress in clothes usually worn by the other sex/play with toys that differed from gender stereotypes etc THEN you let them exercise that right. But not actively introduce it and promote it. I find it quite odd.

[Kyle]

i don't have the time to explain that if you don't understand, you obviously have no cultural awareness of the pressure placed on boys.

Because there wasn't one. Since birth till this very day I have not had one item of clothing, toy or piece of advice from my father that suggested to me I should disrespect women, rape them and beat them and assault people for no other reason than to assert some sort of primal superiority.

If a boy is brought up with any of those impressions in his mind it's most likely down to negligible parenting.

[Jesus.]

Good parents are good parents, and bad parents are bad parents. I applaud the attitude of the parents, because they are obviously looking at this as a way to teach tolerance and understanding to their infant. However, raising your child as gender neutral will probably have no impact on this, but the love, teaching and boundaries they set up for him will.

They could dress him in nothing but military fatigues up until his teenage years, but teach him the right from wrong, and he'll be equally well rounded.

[Kyle]

Bit patronising? :shrug:

My view, these parents are actively fostering confusion in this child. It'd be all well and good that if your child showed signs of WANTING to dress in clothes usually worn by the other sex/play with toys that differed from gender stereotypes etc THEN you let them exercise that right. But not actively introduce it and promote it. I find it quite odd.

This tbh.

I made a long winded post about this earlier but abandoned it because I wasn't a parent so I had no authority on how to bring up a child.

[Kazanne]

He surely will be confused,also teased as he gets older,while it may be an 'interesting' experiment we are not the one being used for it,why cant kids just be boys and girls without interference,if they are parented in a good and fair way,they will hopefully grow up to be decent human beings,let them play with whatever toys they want to,but dressing him as a girl is too far imo.

[Ammi]

..I do think that Alex makes some good points and I can totally see where he is coming from...but I also think that in trying to encourage a more 'open-minded/tolerant' etc child...they've got it a bit wrong in terms of it being about clothes and are not thinking enough about other areas of his young life and school life that this could have a very serious and unhappy effect on...they're just kind of focusing on it all in the wrong way imo...

[T*]

I don't see the big issue here. Everybody has different ways of parenting, and that is their choice; whether people believe it to be incorrect or not their opinion really doesn't mean too much, especially considering how often the "best" ways to raise your children change all the time (half the time contradicting the "best" ways in time gone by).

Totally agree with Ben here, it's not a big issue at all.

[Kyle]

It's almost as if these parents seem to think that the only reason boys don't play with girls toys and wear girls clothes is because of a fear of being mocked. I'm sure there are a small minority of boys who would get pleasure out of playing with Barbie or my little pony and wearing a pink tutu but I don't think the vast majority would be interested and that's why I don't think everybody should be subjected to it so early.

[lostalex]

Good parents are good parents, and bad parents are bad parents. I applaud the attitude of the parents, because they are obviously looking at this as a way to teach tolerance and understanding to their infant. However, raising your child as gender neutral will probably have no impact on this, but the love, teaching and boundaries they set up for him will.

They could dress him in nothing but military fatigues up until his teenage years, but teach him the right from wrong, and he'll be equally well rounded.

perfect post. 5 stars.

I can't explain it any better so i'll stop trying.

[lostalex]

Bit patronising? :shrug:

My view, these parents are actively fostering confusion in this child. It'd be all well and good that if your child showed signs of WANTING to dress in clothes usually worn by the other sex/play with toys that differed from gender stereotypes etc THEN you let them exercise that right. But not actively introduce it and promote it. I find it quite odd.

i reject the idea that giving a child more freedom = confusion. what if you just let him/her decide for themselves. I think all children are confused all the time, that is part of childhood. You don't understand because you don't know, therefore you are confused.

Believe it or not, i was a child once too.

[AnnieK]

The only thing that confuses me is that they are actively creating a divide between the sexes. If in the morning he is a boy and plays with boys toys and wears boys clothes and then in the afternoon he is dressed as a girl and plays with girls toys they are highlighting the difference between the sexes. Surely to promote gender neutral behaviour he should be dressed in gender neutral clothes with access to both boys and girls clothes at all times?

[lostalex]

The only thing that confuses me is that they are actively creating a divide between the sexes. If in the morning he is a boy and plays with boys toys and wears boys clothes and then in the afternoon he is dressed as a girl and plays with girls toys they are highlighting the difference between the sexes. Surely to promote gender neutral behaviour he should be dressed in gender neutral clothes with access to both boys and girls clothes at all times?

I agree, I noticed that too. The idea that there are certain times to be a "boy" and certain time to be a "girl"... i didn't understand that either. It's totally contradictory to the idea of gender neutrality that they claim to be embracing.

[arista]

u2KE-T6X3zs


Why are they doing it



It Stinks

[Jesus.]

I think Arista was raised under gender neutral parenting. That's why he's so effeminate.

[Niamh.]

The only thing that confuses me is that they are actively creating a divide between the sexes. If in the morning he is a boy and plays with boys toys and wears boys clothes and then in the afternoon he is dressed as a girl and plays with girls toys they are highlighting the difference between the sexes. Surely to promote gender neutral behaviour he should be dressed in gender neutral clothes with access to both boys and girls clothes at all times?

Yeah, I agree with that

[Ammi]

Why are they doing it



It Stinks

..I think somehow they have good intentions but I personally think that their focus is all wrong...

[Kate!]

i reject the idea that giving a child more freedom = confusion. what if you just let him/her decide for themselves. I think all children are confused all the time, that is part of childhood. You don't understand because you don't know, therefore you are confused.

Believe it or not, i was a child once too.

But my post IS advocating letting them have freedom to decide for themselves and support whatever inclinations a child may naturally have? What these parents are doing is imposing set times for their child to be encouraged to be masculine and set times to be feminine. I find it very odd.

[Nedusa]

I can kinda see the point Alex is making...he is saying aggressive gender sterotyping of youngsters into adopting the roles society has established on them can be damaging to them as for the male stereotype this would involve encouragement of negative qualities such as aggression and machoness.

But nature will assert these roles to these children anyway by virtue of the amounts of testosterone and oestrogen they have. We as parents have to be able to allow their gender development within acceptable limits, allow them to dress as their gender dictates but I agree we should not try and encourage the worst excesses of gender behaviour in them.

As parents we want the very best for our children male or female and as long as we teach them properly and give them plenty of love they should be well adjusted enough to embrace their gender but not develop the more extreme traits like misogyny and misandry eg....

[lostalex]

But my post IS advocating letting them have freedom to decide for themselves and support whatever inclinations a child may naturally have? What these parents are doing is imposing set times for their child to be encouraged to be masculine and set times to be feminine. I find it very odd.

oh well i agree, what these parents are doing, with the set times for being a "male" and then being a "female" i agree that's just bizarre. They seem to be reinforcing gender stereotypes just as much as any other parents by doing that.

I was just speaking generally, and making a broader point.

[armand.kay]

there's no such thing as boys clothes and girls clothes, or boys toys and girls toys.

It sounds like a fascinating experiment. It can't be any more damaging than "traditional" parenting, which already leads to the violence, rape, and murder rates we have in society now.

As weird as I find this story I agree with you.

[Jessica.]

When I have children I will let them pick their own clothes, if I have a son and he wants to wear a tutu with bells on it and use a wand pretending to be a fairy then it's not my business to stop him because it's not harmful. I think these people have the idea right but they are doing it in the wrong way, especially by making it something public.

I think it's not fair on children to make them feel like they can't express themselves how they want or even in situations that wouldn't be a big deal. For example, if my nephew came to stay in my house and got wet in the rain, he would prefer to wear his wet t-shirt than borrow one of his sisters for a short time, just because he would actually be embarrassed to wear something for "girls".

[Shaun]

Too much consideration and worry placed on what will happen to him at school, or what people will say about him. If adults bitching about what a child is wearing is really that bothersome to you you need to just remind yourself you're not an adult bitching about what a child is wearing. Whatever kids say about him can be dealt with by the school's disciplinary system.

[lostalex]

I don't remember caring at all what i was wearing when i was a kid. i really didn't care. i honestly don't remember how or why i picked what clothes i put on each day when i was a little kid. I literally just grabbed things out of my drawers and put them on. It wasn't until puberty that i cared about what i wore.

[Niamh.]

I don't remember caring at all what i was wearing when i was a kid. i really didn't care. i honestly don't remember how or why i picked what clothes i put on each day when i was a little kid. I literally just grabbed things out of my drawers and put them on. It wasn't until puberty that i cared about what i wore.

Depends on the child I guess, my son started being funny about what he was wearing when he was 4 years old, it was weird things as well like he didn't like a certain t shirt because it had stripes on it and stuff like that

[daniel-lewis-1985]

Why can she not just teach the boy moral values? This will probably do more harm than good.

Kids are cruel and seeing as this child sees this as 100% normal he's bound to speak about it in school ending in bullying from other children.

I suspect this kid will have a lot of mental health issues in his later years.

[Jack_]

Gender neutral parenting is a perfectly acceptable and progressive idea, but it does seem like they're not exactly implementing it right as others have pointed out.

Gender codes and stereotypes are very damaging to society, and the quicker we try to eradicate them, the more social problems we will solve. I think someone in this thread said something like 'I don't think the majority of boys would be interested in playing with Barbie' or words to that effect - and well...why is that? Because boys are brought up to wear boys clothes, have 'play fights', have toys that are men and are figures of authority, power and strength, the list goes on. They don't just pop out of the vag and immediately start craving some Action Men dolls or to watch Robot Wars, these behaviours and beliefs are taught, learned. They aren't biological or ascribed, they are socialised attitudes given by society, parents, schools, the media etc. The way you conquer that is by reversing the attitudes of those institutions and making gender concepts neutral, equal and open.

I think everyone in this thread should watch the videos in this thread that I posted a couple of weeks ago:

http://www.thisisbigbrother.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6692593

The trailers for those films highlight the damaging nature of both male and female gender stereotypes, and continuing to socialise children to adhere to these ridiculous, man-made concepts is damaging and restrictive to the freedom of a child to determine the kind of person they want to be, not someone that is identified by their gender. The only difference people really have are biological ones - i.e. what you've got downstairs, every child is born as a blank slate, and it is the messages and stereotypes that you instil in them that makes them either a 'man' or a 'woman' - that is, a person that adheres to the roles that society has told them they must act out since they have either a cock or a ***t.

As for the idea of the child being bullied - well yes that is almost certainly a problem, but I've always hated this idea that we should repress children's behaviour in fear of them being bullied. What exactly does that solve? Why are people running scared of bullies instead of actually addressing the real problem which is changing the bullies themselves? People are bullied when they are different, part of a minority - so the more you increase something, the more normal it becomes, and the less reason people have to single you out for it. The more children integrate with people of different skin colours, nationalities and sexualities, the more accepting and understanding they become of each other, this is the same for anything. The more people that take the bull by the horns and trial this kind of thing, the less it becomes something out of the ordinary, and the less children can be bullied for it.

[Niall]

It's almost as if these parents seem to think that the only reason boys don't play with girls toys and wear girls clothes is because of a fear of being mocked. I'm sure there are a small minority of boys who would get pleasure out of playing with Barbie or my little pony and wearing a pink tutu but I don't think the vast majority would be interested and that's why I don't think everybody should be subjected to it so early.

I don't think it's that the vast majority wouldn't be interested, but rather they're socialised to be disinterested in female encoded objects from a young age. Straight after birth you're already colour coded into a gender (blue or pink) and it just progresses from there. Adverts targeted at young boys often play up the gender angle to exploit them as a market, and in doing so it encourages preference on those stereotypically 'male' things over the female ones.

And the bizarrely sexist/patriarchal nature of female-oriented toys often renders them boring too. If female toys were given the same focus on making the product dynamic and exciting instead of the rather stale doll and house formula then I'm sure many boys would be much more interested in picking them up too.

It's not a case of being subjected to anything too early because.. well that's already rampant in society today.

[smudgie]

Heaven knows why the parents are making an issue out of it.
We had a "dressing up box" when or kids were little,if our son wanted to walk up and down in high heels we never thought any more of it than our daughter dressing up as a cowboy.
Son was bought a little dinner service, daughter was bought train sets etc
Kids veer towards what they want to play with, just give them plenty of options.
Nothing new or forward thinking in these parents at all. Just letting the child do what they want is the best way.

[Josy]

Idiotic.

Trying to prove gender is in no way an issue by turning it into an issue.

And the mother saying she hopes he isn't bullied just shows that she knows he will and it will be because of them.

Just let the kid make his own decisions ffs.

[Tom4784]

The idea of turning your own child into some sort of social experiment is repugnant.

I think the idea of Gender Neutral parenting is pretty pointless, If the boy shows signs of wanting to play with dolls and such then support him but don't force it on him. I just think this parenting style is going to cause more problems down the line then it's going to solve.

The thought that raising a boy traditionally creates aggression is moronic, confusion causes aggression, hardship causes aggression and resentment creates aggression among other things. The boy's going to be confused as hell when he grows up and he'll possibly even resent his parents for raising him in that way. It's an idealistic and ultimately flawed way of raising a child.

[Niamh.]

The idea of turning your own child into some sort of social experiment is repugnant.

I think the idea of Gender Neutral parenting is pretty pointless, If the boy shows signs of wanting to play with dolls and such then support him but don't force it on him. I just think this parenting style is going to cause more problems down the line then it's going to solve.

The thought that raising a boy traditionally creates aggression is moronic, confusion causes aggression, hardship causes aggression and resentment creates aggression among other things. The boy's going to be confused as hell when he grows up and he'll possibly even resent his parents for raising him in that way. It's an idealistic and ultimately flawed way of raising a child.

Yes exactly, it's very bad and self indulgent parenting imo. I agree very much with what Smudgie said also, if you don't want a child to play with just "boy toys" etc because society tells you that's what they should be doing then give them all the different options and let them choose themselves. Don't blatantly separate the two and give them separate times etc, that's only enforcing the gender stereotypes

[Z]

I'm not sure about this...surely it will lead to more confusion in the child? I can get allowing him to play with "girls" toys but I'm not sure about dressing him in girls clothes. Children need to determine their own identity and self awareness. The sentiment is good I think, most parents love their children unconditionally regardless of sex, future sexual orientation etc.

But do you not think that by letting him dress up and play with all these different things, they're actually allowing him to determine his own identity? If they were just raising him like most other people raise their kids, he would have an identity imposed upon him that he would accept as his own once he reached a certain age, for example: you like football, you spike your hair up, you play with toy cars...

Once you get past the unusual nature of what they're doing, I actually think it's a really wonderful thing. They're teaching him that he can be whoever he wants to be without fear of judgment from them from birth. Isn't that what all children want to hear from their parents? They won't judge him if he turns out to be any different from anyone else because they're encouraging him to be whoever he wants to be. I mean it's not like this is so isolated; Sweden not long ago introduced a gender neutral pronoun that people can use instead of he/she/him/her so that if people want to be ambiguous about gender and not discriminate in any way, they now have the vocabulary for that.

[Ninastar]

I love how these parents almost always want to go public with their stories. Perhaps it's to raise awareness... but I personally think otherwise. I've never been a fan of this. It's just so... pointless.

I don't think it is fair on the child. He was born a boy and if you don't want him to be 'damaged by stereotypes' then raise him to not give a damn about stereotypes. Let him wear clothes with pink, let him play with dolls, let him play dress up, but don't tell him he is a girl because he's not. Kids have no idea what girls toys/boys toys actually are until their about 4 onwards. I don't think it's fair for parents to tell their kids 'you can be a girl if you want to' when they it's physically impossible unless they actually get a sex change. I understand when older people believe they are stuck in the wrong body and that is fair enough, they can believe that if they like. But it is so wrong to convince and influence your child into thinking they can be more than one gender, or the gender of the opposite sex.

I am all for letting girls and boys playing with whatever toys they like. It's just toys. Girls playing with naked barbie dolls and boys playing with naked wrestling dolls? it's funny how those are meant to be the stereotypical 'straight kid toys' don't you think?

All I care about is children being praised for who they are, the way they were born and not raised as a social experiment. I just personally don't think it's fair. You can call me ignorant/small minded all you like, I don't give a damn. Kids shouldn't be made to change for the parents benefit.

[Ammi]

But do you not think that by letting him dress up and play with all these different things, they're actually allowing him to determine his own identity? If they were just raising him like most other people raise their kids, he would have an identity imposed upon him that he would accept as his own once he reached a certain age, for example: you like football, you spike your hair up, you play with toy cars...
Once you get past the unusual nature of what they're doing, I actually think it's a really wonderful thing. They're teaching him that he can be whoever he wants to be without fear of judgment from them from birth. Isn't that what all children want to hear from their parents? They won't judge him if he turns out to be any different from anyone else because they're encouraging him to be whoever he wants to be. I mean it's not like this is so isolated; Sweden not long ago introduced a gender neutral pronoun that people can use instead of he/she/him/her so that if people want to be ambiguous about gender and not discriminate in any way, they now have the vocabulary for that.


..I don't see that what they're doing does the same thing though...my boys didn't always play with stereotypical 'boy' toys, I don't think that really matters but I think with this, the method they're using..judgement from others will be exactly what he gets...

[AnnieK]

But do you not think that by letting him dress up and play with all these different things, they're actually allowing him to determine his own identity? If they were just raising him like most other people raise their kids, he would have an identity imposed upon him that he would accept as his own once he reached a certain age, for example: you like football, you spike your hair up, you play with toy cars...

Once you get past the unusual nature of what they're doing, I actually think it's a really wonderful thing. They're teaching him that he can be whoever he wants to be without fear of judgment from them from birth. Isn't that what all children want to hear from their parents? They won't judge him if he turns out to be any different from anyone else because they're encouraging him to be whoever he wants to be. I mean it's not like this is so isolated; Sweden not long ago introduced a gender neutral pronoun that people can use instead of he/she/him/her so that if people want to be ambiguous about gender and not discriminate in any way, they now have the vocabulary for that.

Yeah I agree conceptually its a great idea. I did post later that I think they are enforcing the stereotypes further though by having morning as a boy and allowing him to play with boys toys and afternoons as a girl playing with dolls. Why not allowing him to play with what he wants to play with?

I think the majority of parents teach their children then can be what they want to be. I have gender neutral toys, when my son visits his grandparents or nursery there are both gender toys and he is not forced to play with gender specific and does in fact play with both but I don't feel I am judging him by dressing him as a boy when that is, in fact what he is.

[Josy]

But do you not think that by letting him dress up and play with all these different things, they're actually allowing him to determine his own identity? If they were just raising him like most other people raise their kids, he would have an identity imposed upon him that he would accept as his own once he reached a certain age, for example: you like football, you spike your hair up, you play with toy cars...

Once you get past the unusual nature of what they're doing, I actually think it's a really wonderful thing. They're teaching him that he can be whoever he wants to be without fear of judgment from them from birth. Isn't that what all children want to hear from their parents? They won't judge him if he turns out to be any different from anyone else because they're encouraging him to be whoever he wants to be. I mean it's not like this is so isolated; Sweden not long ago introduced a gender neutral pronoun that people can use instead of he/she/him/her so that if people want to be ambiguous about gender and not discriminate in any way, they now have the vocabulary for that.

I get your point Zee but I honestly think these parents are pushing their own opinions onto this child, if he wants to play with dolls and prams fair enough and if he wants to play with trucks and dinosaurs that's also fair enough, but why does he have to wait until he's in a dress to play with dolls and then dressed as a boy to play with trucks? that's not gender neutralising at all, let him play with what he wants when he wants without dressing him up in a certain way, what she is doing is still stereotyping.

His mother also says this

‘They teach little boys to be aggressive and dominant over women,’ she argues. ‘There’s research out there saying that the whole “boys will be boys” thing basically teaches lads that it’s OK to be a certain way, because it’s in their nature to be aggressive. It’s detrimental for them and for females.’


That is extremely insulting to anyone that has brought up their children in a more traditional way, it's also stereotyping again, something that she claims damages kids.

The parents are making it into a big issue when they should be concentrating on teaching him manners and respect for other people then when he's older he can make decisions for himself.

[Z]

Yeah I agree with all three of you; I just think that the first few posts in this thread were just sort of rubbishing them as parents when I think they're doing a very admirable thing, just perhaps not doing it in the most effective way. I don't understand why they've separated it into boy time and girl time; surely just get him a mixture of traditionally boy/girl toys/clothes/whatever and leave him to make his mind up about what he wants to play with and wear. At any rate I think it's an interesting concept and at least it's not as ridiculous as the social experiment I came across in Germany of the little boy whose parents wanted to see how long hair would grow naturally so they had this ratty horrid pig tail growing at the back of his head but the rest of it kept short :yuk:

[Livia]

More woolly-headed liberal parents propelling their son toward an adolescence of counselling and therapy. Meet you all back here in, say, twelve years to see how this pans out.

Allowing a little boy to wear a dress is just odd. I mean, it's not like it's something that's happened naturally, his parents have bought the dress for him to wear. What a ridiculous society we've become.

[Nedusa]

Yeah I agree with all three of you; I just think that the first few posts in this thread were just sort of rubbishing them as parents when I think they're doing a very admirable thing, just perhaps not doing it in the most effective way. I don't understand why they've separated it into boy time and girl time; surely just get him a mixture of traditionally boy/girl toys/clothes/whatever and leave him to make his mind up about what he wants to play with and wear. At any rate I think it's an interesting concept and at least it's not as ridiculous as the social experiment I came across in Germany of the little boy whose parents wanted to see how long hair would grow naturally so they had this ratty horrid pig tail growing at the back of his head but the rest of it kept short :yuk:

I agree that the parents here have unwittingly made this into an issue by their very actions. They should have just let the child decide which toys he wanted to play with and what clothes he wanted to wear. most likely the same ones as the rest of the other little boys are wearing and playing with.

This type of social experimenting is well intentioned but at best wishful thinking at worst downright damaging to the child as he could stand out in his class or school playground and become the target for years of abuse. It could damage him emotionally and seriously impact on his relationship with his parents.

Like a lot of posters have said, just point him in the right gender direction but let him decide what he feels comfortable with.

I agree the idea of encouraging little boys to play with guns and soldiers and wargames etc... is unecessary and panders to Societies obsession with power and control.....let children decide what they want to play with and what they believe in ie No religious indoctrination . Teach them about ALL religions and again let them decide when they have reached an age where they can make an informed decision....

[lostalex]

I agree with all of the people questioning the motives of the parents going public about this. Why would any parent call the Daily Mail to tell them that their son wears dresses? There definitely seems to be alterior motives here.

remember the Balloon Boy from a few years ago? turned out the father was just a fame *****.

http://www.examiner.com/images/blog/EXID300/images/balloon-boy-richard-heene.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-UZmgH35WdC4/TVq5iiZZDOI/AAAAAAAAACU/AtM0N0AtofE/s1600/BalloonBoy.jpg

[Jack_]

More woolly-headed liberal parents propelling their son toward an adolescence of counselling and therapy. Meet you all back here in, say, twelve years to see how this pans out.

Allowing a little boy to wear a dress is just odd. I mean, it's not like it's something that's happened naturally, his parents have bought the dress for him to wear. What a ridiculous society we've become.

But then boys and girls being interested in Barbie/Action Men, or wanting to wear dresses and makeup or jeans and baseball caps aren't naturally acquired tastes either, they are socialised. I'm not disagreeing with people arguing that the way these parents are going about this is wrong, they've misunderstood the concept of gender neutral parenting, but children don't 'naturally' want to or not want to wear dresses, they learn the behaviours of their peers, the media and what their parents teach them.

If you were to place a one year old child in a white room with a dress and a pair of jeans, and a dolls house with Barbies and Action Men and toy cars in two separate piles, and left them to walk up to one to dress up in/play with - taking the hypothetical assumption that they haven't ever interacted with other people their age or had any sort of guidance from their parents or the media - the chances of them going to either pile is a completely 50/50 toss up, there isn't any 'natural' instinct whatsoever - it is a toss of a coin. You put a child that's interacted with other children of a similar age, had media messages fed to them and had guidance from their parents, and they will probably go to the pile that fits the gender stereotypes they've been taught. It isn't natural though, it's learned behaviour.

[lostalex]

..yeah I do totally Alex, but his gender is male so I don't see that it's repressing him for him to be dressed as male...that's not enforcing anything aggressive or 'macho' on him...

wearing a dress isn't gonna make him any less male though.

[Nedusa]

wearing a dress isn't gonna make him any less male though.

I agree............Will.I.am was wearing one on the Voice on TV on sat night.

and he's quite male..........isn't he ??

[Vicky.]

Im all for not having 'girls' toys and 'boys' toys and stuff lke that, but to actively change your kids clothes to a dress halfway through the day and get him to play with dolls instead of cars as he had played with cars on the morning is taking the piss a bit and will just confuse the child. Seems to be a ****ing experiment tbh

[Ammi]

wearing a dress isn't gonna make him any less male though.

..no but wearing 'boy' clothes isn't going to make him any more male either though, Alex..I just think the focus is completely wrong with the parents...

[the truth]

its half a good idea to allow kids different toys and so on... I dont see why a boy cant play with a doll or a girl cant play with a cowboy etc etc but to put a one year old boy in dresses and paint his nails and womens shoes is insane and will confuse the heck out of the poor lad. he shouldnt be used as a guinea pig by a radical feminist who clearly has issues with men and stereotypes them and puts them in a box. the exact thing she is preaching against. Im more worried too if neither parents works, a child needs to have positive role models and to see at least one of them earn a living is very good for his development.

[lostalex]

I agree............Will.I.am was wearing one on the Voice on TV on sat night.

and he's quite male..........isn't he ??

he's a lot of things...

[lostalex]

..no but wearing 'boy' clothes isn't going to make him any more male either though, Alex..I just think the focus is completely wrong with the parents...

i agree, they don't seem to be letting him have freedom, they seem to be pushing both gender stereotypes on him, when they should be pushing no gender stereotypes. That's why i think it's a BS story.

This whole story reeks of BS to me. I think the DM made it up. I think they hired people to pose for pictures, and made up the story.

[Ammi]

its half a good idea to allow kids different toys and so on... I dont see why a boy cant play with a doll or a girl cant play with a cowboy etc etc but to put a one year old boy in dresses and paint his nails and womens shoes is insane and will confuse the heck out of the poor lad. he shouldnt be used as a guinea pig by a radical feminist who clearly has issues with men and stereotypes them and puts them in a box. the exact thing she is preaching against. Im more worried too if neither parents works, a child needs to have positive role models and to see at least one of them earn a living is very good for his development.


..the article says that his father has the more 'feminist' views than his mum...

The decision was fully supported by Martin, an unemployed courier. ‘I think my husband is more of a feminist than I am,’ she says. ‘His biggest concern about the whole thing is usually “does Max have the right shoes to go with that dress!”’

[Ammi]

i agree, they don't seem to be letting him have freedom, they seem to be pushing both gender stereotypes on him, when they should be pushing no gender stereotypes. That's why i think it's a BS story.

This whole story reeks of BS to me. I think the DM made it up. I think they hired people to pose for pictures, and made up the story.


..no, I agree Alex, I think that publicising it seems wrong to me...

[Vicky.]

The parents are just experimenting on this poor child who is extremely likely to grow up very confused about why he is a boy half of the day and a girl the other half, they have no idea what gender neutral parenting really is, and are using the kid for publicity. As such, I think they are utter arseholes.

[arista]

The parents are just experimenting on this poor child who is extremely likely to grow up very confused about why he is a boy half of the day and a girl the other half, they have no idea what gender neutral parenting really is, and are using the kid for publicity. As such, I think they are utter arseholes.


Bang On Right Vicky

[Crimson Dynamo]

Life is hard enough without your parents running experiments on yo ass

[the truth]

..the article says that his father has the more 'feminist' views than his mum...

The decision was fully supported by Martin, an unemployed courier. ‘I think my husband is more of a feminist than I am,’ she says. ‘His biggest concern about the whole thing is usually “does Max have the right shoes to go with that dress!”’

I know, clearly the father is a complete and utter idiot.

[Livia]

But then boys and girls being interested in Barbie/Action Men, or wanting to wear dresses and makeup or jeans and baseball caps aren't naturally acquired tastes either, they are socialised. I'm not disagreeing with people arguing that the way these parents are going about this is wrong, they've misunderstood the concept of gender neutral parenting, but children don't 'naturally' want to or not want to wear dresses, they learn the behaviours of their peers, the media and what their parents teach them.

If you were to place a one year old child in a white room with a dress and a pair of jeans, and a dolls house with Barbies and Action Men and toy cars in two separate piles, and left them to walk up to one to dress up in/play with - taking the hypothetical assumption that they haven't ever interacted with other people their age or had any sort of guidance from their parents or the media - the chances of them going to either pile is a completely 50/50 toss up, there isn't any 'natural' instinct whatsoever - it is a toss of a coin. You put a child that's interacted with other children of a similar age, had media messages fed to them and had guidance from their parents, and they will probably go to the pile that fits the gender stereotypes they've been taught. It isn't natural though, it's learned behaviour.

I'm not sure that all gender interaction and preference is learned, so what would or wouldn't happen is purely conjecture.

While I understand having gender-neutral toys, dressing your child as a boy in the morning and a girl in the afternoon is bonkers. He is a boy. No amount of pink dresses is going to change that and I'm not sure it's helping him now, or that it will help him in the future.

[the truth]

I'm not sure that all gender interaction and preference is learned, so what would or wouldn't happen is purely conjecture.

While I understand having gender-neutral toys, dressing your child as a boy in the morning and a girl in the afternoon is bonkers. He is a boy. No amount of pink dresses is going to change that and I'm not sure it's helping him now, or that it will help him in the future.

this is all built around the insane notion that all maleness is evil and we must brainwash it out of our boys. this is the revisionist bull**** history that radical feminist has taught us and BBC are leading the way.

[lostalex]

Livia, may I ask you a question?

Do you believe that women are naturally submissive to men, and that women are naturally more inclined to be caregivers as opposed to leaders?

[the truth]

Livia, may I ask you a question?

Do you believe that women are naturally submissive to men, and that women are naturally more inclined to be caregivers as opposed to leaders?

do you?

[lostalex]

do you?
I am asking the question, so i can't taint the question with my own opinions, i'll give my opinion after she answers

But i'd also be interested in knowing your answer to that question "the truth", feel free to answer it if you wish. though i'm pretty sure i already know your opinion../.

[the truth]

I am asking the question, so i can't taint the question with my own opinions, i'll give my opinion after she answers

But i'd also be interested in knowing your answer to that question "the truth", feel free to answer it if you wish. though i'm pretty sure i already know your opinion../.

My answer is no to both questions

[lostalex]

My answer is no to both questions

oh, that's surprising. are you just saying that in an ironic politically correct way? or do you really mean it?

[James]

These stories always remind me of the sad and infamous case in Canada where a boy was raised as a girl, on the advice of a psychologist who believed gender identity was learned, but the boy never identified as female. He had a sad life and eventually killed himself.

There was a TV documentary shown about it a while ago. There is more about it here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

[the truth]

oh, that's surprising. are you just saying that in an ironic politically correct way? or do you really mean it?

No I mean it.

[the truth]

These stories always remind me of the sad and infamous case in Canada where a boy was raised as a girl, on the advice of a psychologist who believed gender identity was learned, but the boy never identified as female. He had a sad life and eventually killed himself.

There was a TV documentary shown about it a while ago. There is more about it here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

fascinating James, thanks for that

[Niamh.]

These stories always remind me of the sad and infamous case in Canada where a boy was raised as a girl, on the advice of a psychologist who believed gender identity was learned, but the boy never identified as female. He had a sad life and eventually killed himself.

There was a TV documentary shown about it a while ago. There is more about it here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

Oh wow, I never heard of that. I just don't understand how people can use their kids to "experiment" like that, I really don't see what the problem with traditional parenting is. If you don't want your kids to be aggressive or sexist just teach them not to be by not being like that yourself, lead by example. Don't over complicate things by doing all this crazy s**t

[the truth]

Oh wow, I never heard of that. I just don't understand how people can use their kids to "experiment" like that, I really don't see what the problem with traditional parenting is. If you don't want your kids to be aggressive or sexist just teach them not to be by not being like that yourself, lead by example. Don't over complicate things by doing all this crazy s**t

agreed. but this nonsense is the result of the brainless drivel of radical feminism going unitellectually unchallenged in the UK for decades. this is where the liberal radical feminist drivel leads us

[daniel-lewis-1985]

oh, that's surprising. are you just saying that in an ironic politically correct way? or do you really mean it?

I honestly don't believe his response if im honest but maybe people change overnight.

[Vicky.]

agreed. but this nonsense is the result of the brainless drivel of radical feminism going unitellectually unchallenged in the UK for decades. this is where the liberal radical feminist drivel leads us

I honestly don't believe his response if im honest but maybe people change overnight.

:laugh:

[daniel-lewis-1985]

:laugh:

Case closed lol.