Should UK ban ritual animal slaughter?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Like the progressive Danes have?

Animal rights MUST come before religion?

http://www.goldennorth.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/cute-cow.jpg

Graphic Image
http://www.theneworder.org/media/74932/kosher_slaughter-graphic.jpg

[Jesus.]

Not sure we have the stomachs for the fight.

[arista]

No as it the same but takes longer.
we use Electric Stun guns faster to do
same result


That second picture needs to be on a link
not posted
without warning given of Graphic Content

[Nedusa]

I think this is a no brainer. of course an animals welfare must come before a religious practice.

It's bad enough that we breed animals for food and have to kill them, so at least let us kill them in the most humane way possible and that means quickest and least painful way.

Religion should not even be a consideration. if people want to make animals suffer and die slowly in pain then to me that is evil and they are brainwashed into thinking some imaginary deity has decreed it so.

Don't get me started on religion again.

But Yes an animal that exists in this world and is made of flesh and blood ALWAYS trumps a non existant imaginary, invisible man living in the clouds...........!!!!!

[arista]

I think this is a no brainer. of course an animals welfare must come before a religious practice.

It's bad enough that we breed animals for food and have to kill them, so at least let us kill them in the most humane way possible and that means quickest and least painful way.

Religion should not even be a consideration. if people want to make animals suffer and die slowly in pain then to me that is evil and they are brainwashed into thinking some imaginary deity has decreed it so.

Don't get me started on religion again.

But Yes an animal that exists in this world and is made of flesh and blood ALWAYS trumps a non existant imaginary, invisible man living in the clouds...........!!!!!

Halal Meat is a £2Billion Industry

[Jesus.]

No as it the same but takes longer.
we use Electric Stun guns faster to do
same result


That second picture needs to be on a link not posted
and a warning given of Graphic Content

Cigarette packets carry worse pictures than that on them. This is supposed to be SD, so I think people can probably handle a picture of a dead cow.

[Nedusa]

Halal Meat is a 2Billion Industry

And so probably is "organised Religion"......

[arista]

Cigarette packets carry worse pictures than that on them. This is supposed to be SD, so I think people can probably handle a picture of a dead cow.


No many on here do not want to see that
and Warning is needed

[lostalex]

let's all just go vegan and get it over with. it's clear that is the direction we are going..

it's probablly healthier anyway.

[lostalex]

is alcohol vegan?

[Jesus.]

No many on here do not want to see that
and Warning is needed

Moral arbiter for TIBB has spoken. I've seen many worse pics than that around here without any issue.

[Nedusa]

is alcohol vegan?

Yes, most alcohol is brewed or distilled from Fruit ,grain or Vegetables

[Kazanne]

I think anything that is more humane should be used surely it's a no brainer,people are so cruel,I hate to think what animals all over the world are going through because of us

[lostalex]

Yes, most alcohol is brewed or distilled from Fruit ,grain or Vegetables

Exactl;y, see, i'm walk the walk and walk the talk. :hmph:

[Nedusa]

I can see where this thread is going............

[Kate!]

That second picture needs to be on a link
not posted
without warning given of Graphic Content

Fully agree Arista. Spoilered would be fine. I'd view it but it would be preferable to know what the content is in advance rather than it just appear. Not censorship, just choice of whether you want to see.

[Nedusa]

stop trying to instigate. i've heard about you instigating NeEDUSA the INSTIGATOR, that;'s what they call you behind your back.

Really...........I haven't herd that before.........!!!!

[Crimson Dynamo]

I see it like if we killed humans for meat, how would you want them to be killed. We are all animals, humans are no better or worse than cows.

[lostalex]

i feel much more comfortable talking about Ukraine...

[Kate!]

It's udderly barbaric.

[arista]

Fully agree Arista. Spoilered would be fine. I'd view it but it would be preferable to know what the content is in advance rather than it just appear. Not censorship, just choice of whether you want to see.

yes its a Needs a Spoiler

[Kyle]

yes its a Needs a Spoiler

Good idea jar jar.

[Crimson Dynamo]

yes its a Needs a Spoiler

Ok

Spoiler: The cow died


happy?

[Kizzy]

Ok

Spoiler: The cow died


happy?

I agree with kaz, it seems more humane and instantaneous. There was an undercover film made about abattoir practices, the animals are terrified.. the stun gun doesn't always work effectively so they are suspended from hooks and gutted semi concious.... That's not humane is it?

[Livia]

I sometimes think that meat eaters who don't eat Kosher or Halal have a kind of fairy-tale view of abattoirs, where the animals are given some kind of pre-med before they're dispatched off to heaven in a sleepy way. Abattoirs are awful, frightening places full of despair and terror. All animal slaughter is upsetting, but because Kosher and Halal are to do with religion, it's got to be worse, right?

Maybe we should be concentratinig more on demanding that the animal, which is being reared for meat and nothing else, has a natural, quality life while it's alive?

[arista]

Ok

Spoiler: The cow died


happy?


no the image must go hidden
then you can choose to click it or not


Thank you the Mod that helped here

[lostalex]

I sometimes think that meat eaters who don't eat Kosher or Halal have a kind of fairy-tale view of abattoirs, where the animals are given some kind of pre-med before they're dispatched off to heaven in a sleepy way. Abattoirs are awful, frightening places full of despair and terror. All animal slaughter is upsetting, but because Kosher and Halal are to do with religion, it's got to be worse, right?

Maybe we should be concentratinig more on demanding that the animal, which is being reared for meat and nothing else, has a natural, quality life while it's alive?

why are we still eating animals? where's my soylent green?

living in the future is so disappointing.

[Me. I Am Salman]

Well there's conflicting opinion, some argue kosher and halal methods are in fact humane as a swift incision is made and the blood is drained causing quick death. There are studies that western methods may actually cause more pain. I mean shooting a bolt to the head of a sheep hardly shows you to be compassionate

The meat is also far more clean, and it's a method that's been practiced for a long long time. So how about you focus on other things like battery farming where there's pretty much a general consensus that it's inhumane, rather that attempt to alienate minorities even more than they already are. And lbr that's the only reason why this thread was created, LeatherTrumpet seems to be obsessed with pissing off people with religious beliefs

[Kazanne]

I don't eat meat but don't condone people who do,I just hate the way we cant be trusted to treat these animals well while they are alive and at least make their demise as painless as possible,abbattoirs are disgusting places where rules are flaunted ,animals teased and beaten and in the main they get away with it,If people had to kill their own meat or visited an abattoir there would be more veggies I think.

[lostalex]

Well there's conflicting opinion, some argue kosher and halal methods are in fact humane as a swift incision is made and the blood is drained causing quick death. There are studies that western methods may actually cause more pain. I mean shooting a bolt to the head of a sheep hardly shows you to be compassionate

The meat is also far more clean, and it's a method that's been practiced for a long long time. So how about you focus on other things like battery farming where there's pretty much a general consensus that it's inhumane, rather that attempt to alienate minorities even more than they already are. And lbr that's the only reason why this thread was created, LeatherTrumpet seems to be obsessed with pissing off people with religious beliefs

Do you really think a bunch of people 1000 years ago living in a desert are any kind of authority on anything? least of all how to prepare meat?

Didn't they also used to marry 12 y/o girls to their much older cousins and uncles back then? Let's try to put things in perspective...

[Kazanne]

Well there's conflicting opinion, some argue kosher and halal methods are in fact humane as a swift incision is made and the blood is drained causing quick death. There are studies that western methods may actually cause more pain. I mean shooting a bolt to the head of a sheep hardly shows you to be compassionate

The meat is also far more clean, and it's a method that's been practiced for a long long time. So how about you focus on other things like battery farming where there's pretty much a general consensus that it's inhumane, rather that attempt to alienate minorities even more than they already are. And lbr that's the only reason why this thread was created, LeatherTrumpet seems to be obsessed with pissing off people with religious beliefs

Thinking about this salman you could well be right,although I don't like to think of an animal having it's throat cut,maybe it is more humane than our abattoirs where the animals are cramped together can see others getting killed and are terrified,never thought I would come to that conclusion so thanks.

[Niamh.]

I sometimes think that meat eaters who don't eat Kosher or Halal have a kind of fairy-tale view of abattoirs, where the animals are given some kind of pre-med before they're dispatched off to heaven in a sleepy way. Abattoirs are awful, frightening places full of despair and terror. All animal slaughter is upsetting, but because Kosher and Halal are to do with religion, it's got to be worse, right?

Maybe we should be concentratinig more on demanding that the animal, which is being reared for meat and nothing else, has a natural, quality life while it's alive?

I agree with this, I don't think any meat eaters really have a leg to stand on complaining about this type of thing

[Me. I Am Salman]

do you really think a bunch of people 1000 years ago living in a desert are any kind of authority on anything? didn't they also used to marry 12 y/o girls to their much older cousins back then? let's try to put things in perspective...

You know that's a stupid comparison, and there are people with 'authority' now that condone halal/kosher slaughtering

[Kizzy]

Well there's conflicting opinion, some argue kosher and halal methods are in fact humane as a swift incision is made and the blood is drained causing quick death. There are studies that western methods may actually cause more pain. I mean shooting a bolt to the head of a sheep hardly shows you to be compassionate

The meat is also far more clean, and it's a method that's been practiced for a long long time. So how about you focus on other things like battery farming where there's pretty much a general consensus that it's inhumane, rather that attempt to alienate minorities even more than they already are. And lbr that's the only reason why this thread was created, LeatherTrumpet seems to be obsessed with pissing off people with religious beliefs

It invites debate like your thread about the N word salman.

[Crimson Dynamo]

John Blackwell, head of the British Veterinary Association, said animals should be "stunned" before slaughter.

Mr Blackwell told BBC Radio 4's Today programme that animals should be "stunned at the time of death", which would render them "insensible to pain until death supervenes".

"It's important at the time of death for the animals' welfare not to be compromised," he said, while adding that he "respected the beliefs of religious sects".

'Inflamed prejudice'
He said that sheep could remain conscious for up to seven seconds after having their throat cut, while for cattle it was two minutes.

He said there was "good evidence" that showed that animals could perceive pain at the point of having their throats slit, but he conceded that this research was not conclusive.

Animal rights should come before religious beliefs, he added.



I am wondering who is thinking that sheep and cows dont feel any pain or discomfort by getting their throats slit and humans do...?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26463064

[lostalex]

You know that' a stupid comparison

it's not really a stupid comparison, cause they were marrying their cousins... that's a fact... and they were also preparing meat without refrigerators or ovens, or any other kind of modern cooking appliances... so it's not really "stupid" of me to be pointing it out....but it is kinda "stupid" to be taking advice from primitive people from 1000 years ago... people were pretty ****ed up back then, is my point.

[Me. I Am Salman]

Thinking about this salman you could well be right,although I don't like to think of an animal having it's throat cut,maybe it is more humane than our abattoirs where the animals are cramped together can see others getting killed and are terrified,never thought I would come to that conclusion so thanks.

It's ok :hugesmile: the answer is not always black and white and there's loads of conflicting ideas, so why don't we just combat the things that everyone agrees to be cruel

[Kazanne]

John Blackwell, head of the British Veterinary Association, said animals should be "stunned" before slaughter.

Mr Blackwell told BBC Radio 4's Today programme that animals should be "stunned at the time of death", which would render them "insensible to pain until death supervenes".

"It's important at the time of death for the animals' welfare not to be compromised," he said, while adding that he "respected the beliefs of religious sects".

'Inflamed prejudice'
He said that sheep could remain conscious for up to seven seconds after having their throat cut, while for cattle it was two minutes.

He said there was "good evidence" that showed that animals could perceive pain at the point of having their throats slit, but he conceded that this research was not conclusive.

Animal rights should come before religious beliefs, he added.



I am wondering who is thinking that sheep and cows dont feel any pain or discomfort by getting their throats slit and humans do...?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26463064

There's the thing though LT,it's all well and good these laws been made,but people cannot be trusted to carry them out that's where I confict with abattoirs and halal.

[Me. I Am Salman]

it's not really a stupid comparison, cause they were marrying their cousins... that's a fact... and they were also preparing meat without refrigerators or ovens, or any other kind of modern cooking appliances... so it's not really "stupid" of me to be pointing it out....but it is kinda "stupid" to be taking advice from primitive people from 1000 years ago...

No person nowadays accepts marrying at 12/with cousins because of increased knowledge of human nature but studies and research suggest the kosher/halal practice is fine so yes it is a stupid comparison. If it was so primitive it would have died out long ago which is my point

[lostalex]

No person nowadays accepts marrying at 12/with cousins because of increased knowledge of human nature but studies and research suggest the kosher/halal practice is fine so yes it is a stupid comparison. If it was so primitive it would have died out long ago which is my point

you haven't traveled much i see...

[lostalex]

are you religious Salman!?

[Jesus.]

No person nowadays accepts marrying at 12/with cousins because of increased knowledge of human nature but studies and research suggest the kosher/halal practice is fine so yes it is a stupid comparison. If it was so primitive it would have died out long ago which is my point

I dated a nurse, and part of her training was to work with Muslim families who have disabilities through inbreeding. This was in Birmingham - the 2nd city of England, not some far flung country living in the past. It is still a massive problem today.

[Me. I Am Salman]

I sometimes think that meat eaters who don't eat Kosher or Halal have a kind of fairy-tale view of abattoirs, where the animals are given some kind of pre-med before they're dispatched off to heaven in a sleepy way. Abattoirs are awful, frightening places full of despair and terror. All animal slaughter is upsetting, but because Kosher and Halal are to do with religion, it's got to be worse, right?

Maybe we should be concentratinig more on demanding that the animal, which is being reared for meat and nothing else, has a natural, quality life while it's alive?

Exactly. I see none of that when I go to Bangladesh, families usually rear and slaughter the animals themselves. So how about people in western society stop trying to take some moral or ethical high-ground when it comes to animal welfare

[Me. I Am Salman]

I dated a nurse, and part of her training was to work with Muslim families who have disabilities through inbreeding. This was in Birmingham - the 2nd city of England, not some far flung country living in the past. It is still a massive problem today.

Yes because these people are thick and uneducated and don't know its dangers. It's more of a cultural problem anyway

[Jesus.]

Yes because these people are thick and uneducated and don't know its dangers

I wasn't having a go, I was just providing some information. It was mainly fathers impregnating their own children, as opposed to cousins, but it's still a big issue within Muslim communities. Birmingham has a massive Muslim population so there is more of a chance for these practices to be carried on.

[lostalex]

lol, wait, so are you saying that people who adhere to archaic religious traditions are thick? i'm confused by you salman.
/?
cause that's what i was saying, and then you acted outraged, and now you are saying what exactly?

[Me. I Am Salman]

I wasn't having a go, I was just providing some information. It was mainly fathers impregnating their own children, as opposed to cousins, but it's still a big issue within Muslim communities. Birmingham has a massive Muslim population so there is more of a chance for these practices to be carried on.

No I know you werent lol. But yeah it's more of a cultural problem as it's prominent in South asian communities

[Kizzy]

Are we still talking about meat?....

[Vicky.]

Tbh I dont know much about different ways of killing for meat. But I think it should always be done in the most humane (hard given the circumstances though..) and (more importantly) quickest way.

[Livia]

John Blackwell, head of the British Veterinary Association, said animals should be "stunned" before slaughter.

Mr Blackwell told BBC Radio 4's Today programme that animals should be "stunned at the time of death", which would render them "insensible to pain until death supervenes".

"It's important at the time of death for the animals' welfare not to be compromised," he said, while adding that he "respected the beliefs of religious sects".

'Inflamed prejudice'
He said that sheep could remain conscious for up to seven seconds after having their throat cut, while for cattle it was two minutes.

He said there was "good evidence" that showed that animals could perceive pain at the point of having their throats slit, but he conceded that this research was not conclusive.

Animal rights should come before religious beliefs, he added.



I am wondering who is thinking that sheep and cows dont feel any pain or discomfort by getting their throats slit and humans do...?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26463064


Chickens that live their lives in tiny cages without being able to stand up properly so people can buy cheap eggs... Pigs kept in pens too small for them to even turn around and are bred continually so people can have cheap pork... calves taken from their mother as soon as they're born and kept in the dark for their short miserable life so that people can pay through the nose for veal... all cruel. Did the veterinary surgeon who seems so concerned with religious rites have an opinion an any of that stuff, do you think?

[Livia]

Yes because these people are thick and uneducated and don't know its dangers. It's more of a cultural problem anyway

Salman, I can understand your frustration. Don't be drawn into defending your faith... this is supposed to be a discussion about animal slaughter and not the rights and wrongs of any particular faith in general.

[Niamh.]

Yes, can we stick to the discussion at hand - Animal Slaughter please

[lostalex]

yes, i agree, more animal slaughter please! i came inn this thread for dead animals and all i get is religion! :hmph:

[Niamh.]

yes, i agree, more animal slaughter please! i came inn this thread for dead animals and all i get is religion! :hmph:

Super :thumbs:

[Z]

I like dying animals the best, then you get to see them die

[Crimson Dynamo]

Its more about the best way to kill animals and the most humane based on the best scientific thinking available and not superstition passed down by families.

[lostalex]

I like dying animals the best, then you get to see them die

only the yummy ones though.

but no eating porcupines plzzz, they are too cute.

2y4cQEEyuTw

[Nedusa]

It's udderly barbaric.

Yes.........I Know it Behooves me to agree with you..........

[Nedusa]

it's not really a stupid comparison, cause they were marrying their cousins... that's a fact... and they were also preparing meat without refrigerators or ovens, or any other kind of modern cooking appliances... so it's not really "stupid" of me to be pointing it out....but it is kinda "stupid" to be taking advice from primitive people from 1000 years ago... people were pretty ****ed up back then, is my point.

Exactly...........that's a major part of my argument against organised traditional religions, they were developed millenia ago. the rules and rituals about what you can and cannot do were brought into being by people who as you say were primitive and uninformed.

Sadly, I think people following these ridiculous rituals and do & dont's, should know better and realise just how daft most of this stuff is..........

[Nedusa]

Yes, can we stick to the discussion at hand - Animal Slaughter please

Actually this thread is about what has higher importance Animal's rights or Religious practices.....:wavey:

[Me. I Am Salman]

no one cares medusa

[Crimson Dynamo]

no one cares medusa

People do care that is why the senior vet in the UK has brought it up. Animal rights must come before peoples unfounded personal beliefs they inherited from parents.

[Niamh.]

Actually this thread is about what has higher importance Animal's rights or Religious practices.....:wavey:

Religious practices concerning animal slaughter yes, not an open day on attacking all parts of religion.

[Livia]

Chickens that live their lives in tiny cages without being able to stand up properly so people can buy cheap eggs... Pigs kept in pens too small for them to even turn around and are bred continually so people can have cheap pork... calves taken from their mother as soon as they're born and kept in the dark for their short miserable life so that people can pay through the nose for veal... all cruel. Did the veterinary surgeon who seems so concerned with religious rites have an opinion an any of that stuff, do you think?

People do care that is why the senior vet in the UK has brought it up. Animal rights must come before peoples unfounded personal beliefs they inherited from parents.

I've quoted my own post because it kind of addresses yours and you either missed it or ignored it. If non-religous slaughter was above reproach I could understand your argument. As it is, this is just avenue for the very vocal anti-religous lobby of this forum to try to drag down people of faith.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I've quoted my own post because it kind of addresses yours and you either missed it or ignored it. If non-religous slaughter was above reproach I could understand your argument. As it is, this is just avenue for the very vocal anti-religous lobby of this forum to try to drag down people of faith.

To be fair he can be concerned about more than one subject and he is, today he is taking on religious ritual slaughter. By highlighting this he is in no way saying that the non-religious slaughter of animals is perfect, coz it aint.

One step at a time

Sweet Jesus

[Livia]

To be fair he can be concerned about more than one subject and he is, today he is taking on religious ritual slaughter. By highlighting this he is in no way saying that the non-religious slaughter of animals is perfect, coz it aint.

One step at a time

Sweet Jesus

I understand that. What I don't understand is that non-ritual slaughter is far more widespread and the numbers of animals slaughtered in a non-ritual way far outnumber those slaughtered by religious rules. There are also regular and numerous reports of bad practice surrounding animals raised for food and I know for a fact that MPs and MEPs are regularly contacted by people concerned about all kinds of issues surrounding the ethical treatment of animals in the way they're kept, the way they're bred, the way they're transported and the way they're slaughtered. And yet this vet ignoring all that and raising the question of ritual slaughter. I'd be interested to know why he's concerned enough to make an issue of ritual slaughter and not of all the other bad practices going on every day in the UK.

[Nedusa]

Religious practices concerning animal slaughter yes, not an open day on attacking all parts of religion.

Agreed..................:blush:

[Apple202]

yup

animal rights > religious freedom

[Apple202]

but tbh i just think whatever is the most humane and fastest method should always be used, and that should be made law and inspected constantly

[Z]

I think if we were forced to watch how all types of animal meat widely consumed in the UK ends up in the packaging in our supermarkets more people would be vegetarians. I never think about where the meat came from and how it was slaughtered when I'm eating meat. Perhaps I should. It would stop me from eating meat.

[joeysteele]

I hated those programmes that showed the killing process in abbattoirs, the animals looked terrified going in there and must have been able to sense fear and smell the blood too.
grow it,kill it,eat it I think the series was,something like that anyway.

There are no easy ways to kill an animal for food really, all will have some fault as to the process but I cannot see change coming as to halal processes.
I guess that for as long as people demand meat it will go on and nothing will change at all for any methods used.
The point also is the argument that the animals slaughtered are only bred in the first place for food,if there was not the demand for meat then they likely would never have been bred at all.

I do agree a lot of the farming methods are rather dubious and cause suffering to a lot of animals even before they get anywhere near the slaughtering stage.