12 shot dead at French Satirical Magazine

[Ninastar]

at least 4 killed at the supermarket

****ing disgusting

[kirklancaster]

..Sky Live have just confirmed none of the supermarket hostages dead but one seriously injured...

Good news Ammi.

Oh -- Just seen Ninastar's post. Now I'm confused.

[kirklancaster]

Medical teams
rush in
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/01/09/article-2903042-248B949B00000578-484_964x407.jpg

The 2 Terrorist Brothers are now Dead (SkyNewsHD reported) the one hostage is free
Well done the snipers

:clap1::clap1::clap1: Great news. May they rot in hell.

[Cherie]

Very butch cassidy and the sundance kid exit by the brothers

[arista]

Ch5HD news just said Live unconfirmed reports
that 4 hostages are dead

[arista]

Reports: One Female Terrorists still on the Run


And sadly now fact on France24
4 hostages at the Kosher Supermarket were Murdered

[Sticks]

Needless to say, in the eyes of some, the brothers will be seen as heroes and martyrs for avenging the insult against their holy prophet, and considered to be enjoying their 70 virgins

After all, that was how some viewed the 9/11 hijackers

[arista]

Needless to say, in the eyes of some, the brothers will be seen as heroes and martyrs for avenging the insult against their holy prophet, and considered to be enjoying their 70 virgins

After all, that was how some viewed the 9/11 hijackers


Yes only by that 10%
of Muslims

[Nedusa]

Needless to say, in the eyes of some, the brothers will be seen as heroes and martyrs for avenging the insult against their holy prophet, and considered to be enjoying their 70 virgins

After all, that was how some viewed the 9/11 hijackers

I'm sure Brothers are revelling in this news as they make their way through their 8th and 9th virgins....






.

[Sticks]

Yes only by that 10%
of Muslims

Who have been radicalised by certain Imams like Abu Hanza, being sentenced in the US, or have been radicalised by Jihadi websites.

[Sticks]

I'm sure Brothers are revelling in this news as they make their way through their 8th and 9th virgins....



This is why Islamic extremists are so dangerous, death is an honour, death in the cause of Islam something to be rewarded.

A group you do not want to needlessly provoke

[arista]

Who have been radicalised by certain Imams like Abu Hanza, being sentenced in the US, or have been radicalised by Jihadi websites.


Yes but they will never get Full Power
over us

[arista]

Ch4HD news full team all over France
great reports now on


One of the gunman at the Kosher store got through to a TV station BFMTV
saying he was working for Yemen


But one Female Terrorist got away in all the confusion at the kosher attack

[kirklancaster]

I'm sure Brothers are revelling in this news as they make their way through their 8th and 9th virgins....

.

:joker::joker::joker: Nearly Peed myself Nedusa fecking howler.

[kirklancaster]

Yes but they will never get Full Power
over us

I agree Arista - feck 'em.

[arista]

AL QAEDA
Killed 13 and 4 today
but now go to Hell
all shot Dead fast


3 Police in total Died (during the magazine and that police women directing traffic later)


But One Female Terrorist
still on the run

[kirklancaster]

Needless to say, in the eyes of some, the brothers will be seen as heroes and martyrs for avenging the insult against their holy prophet, and considered to be enjoying their 70 virgins

After all, that was how some viewed the 9/11 hijackers

For me personally, the more Martyrs the better.

Better a dead Martyr than a live terrorist.

[Sticks]

But Martyrs inspire others, who may seek to avenge them

[arista]

But Martyrs inspire others, who may seek to avenge them



Sure but look at those SAS type French Police today
they will kill more

[arista]

France Minister has now called a Special Security
Meeting this Sunday
in France
The want The UK , USA and Germany to Fly Over
for it.


Ref: Ch4HDNews Live

[kirklancaster]

Sure but look at those SAS type French Police today
they will kill more

:clap1::clap1::clap1: I do hope so Arista, I do hope so.

[arista]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/01/09/article-2903042-248C5E7300000578-636_964x547.jpg

[arista]

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2015/1/9/362172/default/v1/mail-1-720x960.jpg

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2015/1/9/362180/default/v1/sun-1-720x960.jpg

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2015/1/9/362181/default/v1/telegraph-1-720x960.jpg

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2015/1/9/362182/default/v1/times-1-720x960.jpg

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2015/1/9/362174/default/v1/star-1-720x960.jpg

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2015/1/9/362177/default/v0/i-1-720x960.jpg

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2015/1/9/362171/default/v1/mirror-1-720x960.jpg

[Scarlett.]

I can't help but be a bit scared that they'll target the UK next.

[GypsyGoth]

I'm glad they're dead and that it's over.

When a movie is made about this, they should get Jedward to play the Kouachi brothers, that would stop them coming across as martyrs and dissuade others from following in their footsteps

[Brother Leon]

"Because of that, whoever kills a soul - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. "

God bless the Officers who lost their lives the last few days and may these Extremists rot in hell for eternity. Barbarians.

[arista]

I can't help but be a bit scared that they'll target the UK next.


They may do
but we will kill them

[billy123]

What is being voiced is a need for perspective here in a world of muslims what fraction are terrorists in the west?
If we treat British muslims as aliens then that just feeds animosity and distrust.Very well said Kizzy. Unfortunately some are blinded by anger and hatred and cant see that all they are doing is feeding the problem.
Venting anger at a quarter of the planets population 99.99%+ of whom are good people is shortsighted,small minded and counter productive beyond belief.
Some of the things i have read online in the last few days astound me and to see some of the bile spewed on here by people i thought were better than that (well some of them) is just frankly saddening.

Rise above it dont get blinded by hate and anger it is what feeds the tiny few that do this type of thing.
This is something that needs to be dealt nobody is saying otherwise. The actions of these warped freaks is vile but branding 1.6 billion as being the same is just ludicrous.

[Ammi]

Very well said Kizzy. Unfortunately some are blinded by anger and hatred and cant see that all they are doing is feeding the problem.
Venting anger at a quarter of the planets population 99.99%+ of whom are good people is shortsighted,small minded and counter productive beyond belief.
Some of the things i have read online in the last few days astound me and to see some of the bile spewed on here by people i thought were better than that (well some of them) is just frankly saddening.

Rise above it dont get blinded by hate and anger it is what feeds the tiny few that do this type of thing.

..it's also exactly what they want...to cast the pebble of hate, mistrust, suspicion, fear and then watch the ripples spread and encompass....

[Sticks]

I disagree with the Mirror headline, they have died as martyrs. In certain circles they will be honoured as the team who avenged the Holy Prophet, just like the 7/7 bombers and the 9/11 attackers are "honoured" in similar circles

This is why it is inexpedient to draw cartoons and/or publish cartoons that insult Islam. These people do not care if they die, and MI5 has admitted they can not find them.

[Sticks]

I can't help but be a bit scared that they'll target the UK next.

They already have

7/7 bombers and the failed attempt two weeks later

Murder of Lee Rigby

[billy123]

..it's also exactly what they want...to cast the pebble of hate, mistrust, suspicion, fear and then watch the ripples spread and encompass....Exactly Ammi and the disappointing thing for me is seeing so many people oblige them :(
I get the outrage and the anger. These people need to be hunted down and destroyed but these people shouldnt be confused with normal people no matter what they claim their reasons are for doing these things they dont represent anyone except their tiny group of lunatics.

[user104658]

..it's also exactly what they want...to cast the pebble of hate, mistrust, suspicion, fear and then watch the ripples spread and encompass....
It's not just what THEY want, it's exactly what the sinister and powerful interested parties with their grubby fingers around the neck of the entire planet want. Again: not Muslims.

Islamic Extremism is a tool used by people who are not religious at all to further their own unfathomable goals and to shape the world. These are mostly powerful, horrendously wealthy Western men. They use Islam because, frankly, only someone devoutly religious can be duped into throwing away their life and the lives of others by committing these atrocities, and Islam is the only truly devout religion left on any sort of scale.

They push the buttons and pull the strings. Many terrorist attacks are carried out be legitimate extremist groups - spurred on by, or copycat attacks of, certain key events.

Charlie Hebdo absolutely reeks of being one of these key events. As soon as the story broke it didn't feel quite right. The surgical execution of the plan, the conveniently placed evidence, the perfectly framed killshots, the blanket media coverage and the speed of apprehension. And of course, the expected public reaction that will only nurture above mentioned legitimate cells and copycat attacks. It smacks of false flag terrorism. I hate that this is so clear to me. It makes the fuming racism all over Facebook even more ****ing depressing.

[user104658]

They don't even have to be particularly careful about hiding it. People naturally won't believe it to be the case. They will desperately cling to the notion that it's just "immigrants and Muslims raaargh they hate our Western way of life because Allah!". It's the easy option.

People naturally WANT to believe that terrorist attacks and organisations are blotches of darkness and hatred on a world that is light and good. They can't handle the truth that terrorism is just a tiny glimpse, a shark fin peeking through the waves, a symptom of a darkness that runs deeper than they can bare to imagine.

Like I said - duck and cover. This **** is scripted. You just have to hope that you're not a Redshirt (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Redshirt) like Charlie.

[arista]

I disagree with the Mirror headline, they have died as martyrs. In certain circles they will be honoured as the team who avenged the Holy Prophet, just like the 7/7 bombers and the 9/11 attackers are "honoured" in similar circles

This is why it is inexpedient to draw cartoons and/or publish cartoons that insult Islam. These people do not care if they die, and MI5 has admitted they can not find them.


Of Course as you have a Narrow View of this
with respect

[kirklancaster]

"Because of that, whoever kills a soul - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. "

God bless the Officers who lost their lives the last few days and may these Extremists rot in hell for eternity. Barbarians.

:clap1: Thank you for your sound, rational and totally legitimate comments.

[kirklancaster]

Of Course as you have a Narrow View of this
with respect

:clap1: 'Narrow' doesn't quite describe it Arista.

[user104658]

:clap1: 'Narrow' doesn't quite describe it Arista.
Whilst I do completely (and utterly) reject with any notion that anyone should censor themselves or limit their freedom of expression out of fear, I do maintain that this is not the ONLY narrow or simplistic viewpoint being expressed in this thread.

[Sticks]

Of Course as you have a Narrow View of this
with respect

I have studied materials on this religion, and others. Certain groups have certain mindsets and you ignore and discount them at your peril

Today I was told that the reason the UK press never published the Danish cartoons was that they were ordered not to, so as not to provoke terrorist attacks.

[kirklancaster]

It's not just what THEY want, it's exactly what the sinister and powerful interested parties with their grubby fingers around the neck of the entire planet want. Again: not Muslims.

Islamic Extremism is a tool used by people who are not religious at all to further their own unfathomable goals and to shape the world. These are mostly powerful, horrendously wealthy Western men.
.

Are you seriously saying here, that an 'Illuminati' type 'Grand Plan' by Non-Muslim Western billionaires is behind all this terrorism?

How would 'Islamlifying' the world benefit Western Capitalists? Who are these Western Non-Muslim 'Puppet Masters?

I agree - as I have said on here many, many times - that the Muslim religion is not really the cause of all this terrorist carnage and barbarism, but if religion does have anything at all to do with it, then it is irrefutably the cynical interpretation and exploitation of the text in the Quran by evil, insane monsters who have a propensity to kill, using it as an excuse to do so, and these barbaric demons are definitely not Western Non-Muslim 'Puppet Masters', but Middle Eastern Islamic Terrorists with no 'Strings Attached'. No one's 'making them do it', they are 'doing it' because they are evil, insane and want to do it.

"They use Islam because, frankly, only someone devoutly religious can be duped into throwing away their life and the lives of others by committing these atrocities, and Islam is the only truly devout religion left on any sort of scale."

I think the underlined statement is pure, unsubstantiated fallacy, and highly offensive to devout Christians, Jews, Hindus and people of other faiths, and it is, once again, dangerously 'elevating' Islam above other religions and attaching special status to it - which does seem to be a trait on here among certain people.

"They push the buttons and pull the strings. Many terrorist attacks are carried out be legitimate extremist groups - spurred on by, or copycat attacks of, certain key events.

Charlie Hebdo absolutely reeks of being one of these key events. As soon as the story broke it didn't feel quite right. The surgical execution of the plan, the conveniently placed evidence, the perfectly framed killshots, the blanket media coverage and the speed of apprehension. And of course, the expected public reaction that will only nurture above mentioned legitimate cells and copycat attacks. It smacks of false flag terrorism. I hate that this is so clear to me. It makes the fuming racism all over Facebook even more ****ing depressing "


Just who are these unidentified mythical creatures who; "push the buttons and pull the strings."?

The text I have underlined in your post seems to infer that this atrocity had nothing at all to do with any Islamic Fundamentalist taking offence at any cartoon, but was instead a well planned, well rehearsed conspiracy involving the French Security Services, the French Government, the French Police, the French TV companies, and God knows who else -- in an attempt to do just what?---

A)Discredit the Muslims?

B)Make themselves appear well equipped, well prepared, or elite in the
eyes of the rest of the world when it comes to dealing with terrorists?

I'd like to know how they recruited terrorist killers from the Yemen to play their part, and whether the 16 innocent human lives which were so cruelly cut short by these terrorist vermin, were regarded by your inferred 'conspirators' as acceptable costs in realising their 'false flag terrorism' - whatever that phrase means.

I'd also like to know just what you mean by; "conveniently placed evidence"?

I do understand you though when you write:

"It makes the fuming racism all over Facebook even more ****ing depressing"

Because I feel exactly as depressed reading some of the crap on here which borders on 'Blame-Shifting' and 'Terrorist apologetics'

[Crimson Dynamo]

If these 2 idiot boys had not been lied to about gods and heaven in the first place they would not have gone on to do that. Until we get to the root of this it will continue to happen

[user104658]

It's not apologetics Kirk, I am absolutely not denying that religious extremists are dangerous or that these atrocities are being carried out by religious extremists. I am an anti-theist. I can't stand organised religion. It's been used to twist and manipulate world events for THOUSANDS of years and enough is enough.

However, I am also well aware that the people who are creating these "monsters" (I will conceed and use that phrase) are NOT religious. They use religion because they know that they can warp it to their purpose. The masterminds don't blow themselves up, they send gullible kids to do it. Why? Why, if they believe truly in martyrdom and that they will go to paradise, do they convert and twist others to do it in their place? Answer: because they do not believe in paradise. They know it's a lie. But they know that others do believe it and that is useful to them.

Islam truly is the only religion left that would follow such a path. A thousand years ago, Christianity was used in EXACTLY the same way, to use the devout as weapons. As I said, the older religions have reached a stage where they are more philosophical and interpretative and mostly not dogmatic. Dogmatic churches are small and not useful.

I don't believe in the illuminati Kirk but I do know that you must look deeper than surface appearances to find the truth in this world.

[arista]

I have studied materials on this religion, and others. Certain groups have certain mindsets and you ignore and discount them at your peril

Today I was told that the reason the UK press never published the Danish cartoons was that they were ordered not to, so as not to provoke terrorist attacks.


Of course no one wants a Jihad walking through your office
with a AK47.
So I fully understand the Bloated BBC
and all the Newspapers

[kirklancaster]

Whilst I do completely (and utterly) reject with any notion that anyone should censor themselves or limit their freedom of expression out of fear, I do maintain that this is not the ONLY narrow or simplistic viewpoint being expressed in this thread.

I couldn't agree more, as your post below is but one example:

They don't even have to be particularly careful about hiding it. People naturally won't believe it to be the case. They will desperately cling to the notion that it's just "immigrants and Muslims raaargh they hate our Western way of life because Allah!". It's the easy option.


Although you fail to identify; "They", your statement above is so typical of a 'narrow or simplistic viewpoint being expressed in this thread" - one of utter denial and terrorist apologetics.

FACT:

A) The terrorists committing these atrocious acts of barbaric cold-blooded murder of innocent civilians, are MUSLIM by FAITH. Extremist they undoubtedly are, and not typical of ORDINARY MUSLIMS they may be, but MUSLIM they are, nonetheless.

B) Being ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALISTS, these terrorist by SELF-PROCLAMATION, do indeed, irrefutably "HATE OUR (Western Infidel, Non-Muslim) WAY OF LIFE"

C) Unfettered IMMIGRATION - especially of Muslims - is causally linked,, beyond all doubt to the murderous acts of terrorism currently being perpetrated in various countries throughout the world. The atrocities in France, Australia, Bulgaria, The UK, Azerbaijan, Greece (do you need anymore?) were carried out by IMMIGRANTS living in those countries, or sons of IMMIGRANTS who were born in those countries.

When Osama Bin Laden was finally tracked down and killed, thousands of Muslims in the UK took to the streets in support of him, announcing him as an Islamic hero and condemned the role of US and West in killing him.

Wasn't mad mongrel hate preacher Anjem Choudary – who praised both 7/7 and the September 11 attacks among other atrocities - an IMMIGRANT to this country

In March of 2012, "Azerbaijani security services reported the arrest of 22 individuals, all Azerbaijani citizens (IMMIGRANTS) accused of working with Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps to carry out terrorist attacks against Western embassies and other groups with Western ties."

C) So, in light of the above FACTS and a thousand similar ones, and in accordance with the principles of 'Occam's Razor', our views that Islamic Terrorists are Muslim, that they hate our way of life, and that immigration is linked to terrorism, is not "the easy option" at all, but a totally rational conclusion based specifically upon the overwhelming and heavy preponderance of factual evidence.

For anyone to make a statement to the contrary that; "They will desperately cling to the notion that it's just "immigrants and Muslims raaargh they hate our Western way of life because Allah!". It's the easy option."
is not only a "narrow or simplistic viewpoint" it is a very juvenile one.

As for;

"People naturally WANT to believe that terrorist attacks and organisations are blotches of darkness and hatred on a world that is light and good. They can't handle the truth that terrorism is just a tiny glimpse, a shark fin peeking through the waves, a symptom of a darkness that runs deeper than they can bare to imagine. "

I haven't a clue what you're going on about.

Finally, I wish you'd explain:

"Like I said - duck and cover. This **** is scripted. You just have to hope that you're not a Redshirt like Charlie."

And tell us all just "who" has scripted just "what" ****? Is it Shane Black, or William Goldman? _________________

[Z]

A girl I work with said "I'm a terrible person for wanting to have children, what kind of selfish monster would bring a child into this world?" in reference to this attack. I don't want to live in this world anymore, quite fancy just going to a remote island and living with a small community and being done with it.

[kirklancaster]

'I just wish that all those on here who are quick to criticise myself and others for our ‘small-minded, bigoted views’ in condemnation of these atrocities, were as quick and scathing of the bastards perpetrating them. Unfortunately, the ones making the loudest noises on here against us are the very ones whose silence on the terrorists and terrorism is the most notable.'

I don't think it's 'us and them' like this kirk, we all condemn them that goes without saying surely who would find their actions justified but other terrorists?...
What is being voiced is a need for perspective here in a world of muslims what fraction are terrorists in the west?
If we treat British muslims as aliens then that just feeds animosity and distrust.

There is no validity in stating; "That goes without saying" in the context of my post, because if there has been no condemnation of the terrorists and their slaughter by the very people who have criticised us who have condemned it, then "goes without saying" means nothing other than it hasn't been said.

As for; "a need for perspective here in a world of muslims what fraction are terrorists in the west?
If we treat British muslims as aliens then that just feeds animosity and distrust."

I agree Kizzy, but to make this comment in a response where you begin by quoting me, would suggest that you are directing these comments to me, and I have plenty of perspective.

I am sick of stating that I do not link Islamic Fundamentalist terrorists with 'ordinary' Muslims, nor do I favour punishing 'ordinary' Muslims anywhere in the world for the crimes of Islamic Terrorists, and I have stated as much in many long posts on various threads.

I must add though, that the above does not mean that immigration and terrorism are not strongly linked, because they are.

In addition, the fact that someone is a 'British' Muslim does not preclude him/her from also being a terrorist or terrorist supporter and sympathiser.

There is too much 'defensive' aggressive overreaction on this forum. When I stated that a large percentage of people claiming benefits in this country shouldn't be, I came under attack by people claiming that I was "attacking the weakest targets of society", "picking on the sick and poor" etc. etc.

The point is, they were all so blinded by their own ideaologies they just did not bother to try to understand what I was so clearly stating. I was not attacking any genuine ill or disabled person, I was attacking those claiming benefits who weren't ill or disabled or needy.

It is exactly the same with this subject. No matter how many times I state that I am not blaming ordinary Muslims, the bigoted, blinkered idiots on here ignore my statements so they can start to attack from a totally false premise.

It gets wearing.

[kirklancaster]

A girl I work with said "I'm a terrible person for wanting to have children, what kind of selfish monster would bring a child into this world?" in reference to this attack. I don't want to live in this world anymore, quite fancy just going to a remote island and living with a small community and being done with it.

Z - you have pinpointed just about the only regret I have ever entertained about having my beautiful kids. The more I see of this fecked up world, the more I feel that I was selfish in having them.

[Cherie]

A girl I work with said "I'm a terrible person for wanting to have children, what kind of selfish monster would bring a child into this world?" in reference to this attack. I don't want to live in this world anymore, quite fancy just going to a remote island and living with a small community and being done with it.

Bit dramatic we are the lucky generation (so far) of this century, we haven't sent anyone to war, we havent had food rationed, we haven't had to leave our homes to take shelter from bombs etc etc

[Ammi]

..also I think that we all have to experience the very good and the very bad/evil in life as well as everything in-between, it's just the way it is and always has been...but having children helps to balance out that goodness and people in general are still intrinsically good.../the evil are very much a minority...

[MTVN]

To be fair Kirk it can also be wearing how you equate any criticism of your position with a support for terrorism and a sympathy for murderers. I agree with kizzy it does go without saying that everyone here condemns these extremists, it is no less offensive to any of us than it is for you even if we don't all lay our raw emotion and anger bare on this forum. It's not fair to accuse people of being apologists for terrorism just because they have a different view on how to confront it.

[arista]

..also I think that we all have to experience the very good and the very bad/evil in life as well as everything in-between, it's just the way it is and always has been...but having children helps to balance out that goodness and people in general are still intrinsically good.../the evil are very much a minority...


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/01/09/248C2A2900000578-2903380-image-a-35_1420830171656.jpg
Great to see the kids get out alive

The Terrorist in the Kosher Store
the 4 that died were killed before the Police went in
so they may have tried to take his AK47

[Cherie]

..also I think that we all have to experience the very good and the very bad/evil in life as well as everything in-between, it's just the way it is and always has been...but having children helps to balance out that goodness and people in general are still intrinsically good.../the evil are very much a minority...

completely agree with this, if we looked at all the things that could potentially happen to our children in life, accidents, illness, addiction etc no one would ever have a child.

[Kizzy]

There is no validity in stating; "That goes without saying" in the context of my post, because if there has been no condemnation of the terrorists and their slaughter by the very people who have criticised us who have condemned it, then "goes without saying" means nothing other than it hasn't been said.

As for; "a need for perspective here in a world of muslims what fraction are terrorists in the west?
If we treat British muslims as aliens then that just feeds animosity and distrust."

I agree Kizzy, but to make this comment in a response where you begin by quoting me, would suggest that you are directing these comments to me, and I have plenty of perspective.

I am sick of stating that I do not link Islamic Fundamentalist terrorists with 'ordinary' Muslims, nor do I favour punishing 'ordinary' Muslims anywhere in the world for the crimes of Islamic Terrorists, and I have stated as much in many long posts on various threads.

I must add though, that the above does not mean that immigration and terrorism are not strongly linked, because they are.

In addition, the fact that someone is a 'British' Muslim does not preclude him/her from also being a terrorist or terrorist supporter and sympathiser.

There is too much 'defensive' aggressive overreaction on this forum. When I stated that a large percentage of people claiming benefits in this country shouldn't be, I came under attack by people claiming that I was "attacking the weakest targets of society", "picking on the sick and poor" etc. etc.

The point is, they were all so blinded by their own ideaologies they just did not bother to try to understand what I was so clearly stating. I was not attacking any genuine ill or disabled person, I was attacking those claiming benefits who weren't ill or disabled or needy.

It is exactly the same with this subject. No matter how many times I state that I am not blaming ordinary Muslims, the bigoted, blinkered idiots on here ignore my statements so they can start to attack from a totally false premise.

It gets wearing.

I validated it when I said it, and I explained why I said it too.
Of course there are home grown terrorists but again what percentages are we talking when you consider the vast Muslim conurbations in the UK?
That's what I meant when using the word perspective not your personal view.
Nobody is being an idiot they are having their say as you are, if you have nothing against ordinary muslims then it seems there's been some common ground reached as that's all anyone can do.

[Kizzy]

Bit dramatic we are the lucky generation (so far) of this century, we haven't sent anyone to war, we havent had food rationed, we haven't had to leave our homes to take shelter from bombs etc etc

Great point cherie, whenever and wherever conflict happens in the world it keeps turning doesn't it?

[Z]

Bit dramatic we are the lucky generation (so far) of this century, we haven't sent anyone to war, we havent had food rationed, we haven't had to leave our homes to take shelter from bombs etc etc

Yet. Britain has waded into several conflicts and turned itself into a target for retribution. We're at war whether we like it or not.

[user104658]

I'll have to keep this relatively brief, on my lunch break (and also phone typing, so apologies in advance for any typos).

I couldn't agree more, as your post below is but one example:

They don't even have to be particularly careful about hiding it. People naturally won't believe it to be the case. They will desperately cling to the notion that it's just "immigrants and Muslims raaargh they hate our Western way of life because Allah!". It's the easy option.


Although you fail to identify; "They", your statement above is so typical of a 'narrow or simplistic viewpoint being expressed in this thread" - one of utter denial and terrorist apologetics.

I will address this later as you quoted it twice.



FACT:

A) The terrorists committing these atrocious acts of barbaric cold-blooded murder of innocent civilians, are MUSLIM by FAITH. Extremist they undoubtedly are, and not typical of ORDINARY MUSLIMS they may be, but MUSLIM they are, nonetheless.

I don't disagree with you and said as much in my last post. The people committing these acts, who are there waving guns and blowing themselves to pieces, are Muslims. Devout and religious ones. To be doing these things they would frankly have to be because no rational free-thinking person would put themselves in that position. There is nothing to gain. They will die. By necessity the only people who would do it are those who believe in a reward in the afterlife.

B) Being ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALISTS, these terrorist by SELF-PROCLAMATION, do indeed, irrefutably "HATE OUR (Western Infidel, Non-Muslim) WAY OF LIFE"


As above, this is of course true. It's part of the indoctrination process. For them to feel that they will be rewarded for killing in the afterlife, again, by necessity, they must believe that the people they are killing deserve to be killed.


C) Unfettered IMMIGRATION - especially of Muslims - is causally linked,, beyond all doubt to the murderous acts of terrorism currently being perpetrated in various countries throughout the world. The atrocities in France, Australia, Bulgaria, The UK, Azerbaijan, Greece (do you need anymore?) were carried out by IMMIGRANTS living in those countries, or sons of IMMIGRANTS who were born in those countries.

When Osama Bin Laden was finally tracked down and killed, thousands of Muslims in the UK took to the streets in support of him, announcing him as an Islamic hero and condemned the role of US and West in killing him.

Wasn't mad mongrel hate preacher Anjem Choudary – who praised both 7/7 and the September 11 attacks among other atrocities - an IMMIGRANT to this country

In March of 2012, "Azerbaijani security services reported the arrest of 22 individuals, all Azerbaijani citizens (IMMIGRANTS) accused of working with Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps to carry out terrorist attacks against Western embassies and other groups with Western ties."
I'm even prepared to tentatively state that you have a point there, buried in all of that. The people carrying out these attacks are indeed often immigrants and removing them from the equation may indeed increase security (in the short term) but I fully and completely believe that these dangerous people are ONLY a weapon. They are the guns, they are the bullets, they are not the finger on the trigger. You don't beat a holly by taking away the stick he's been hitting people with... He will just find another, bigger stick. With thorns on it. In other words: cut immigration and another way will simply be found.
C) So, in light of the above FACTS and a thousand similar ones, and in accordance with the principles of 'Occam's Razor', our views that Islamic Terrorists are Muslim, that they hate our way of life, and that immigration is linked to terrorism, is not "the easy option" at all, but a totally rational conclusion based specifically upon the overwhelming and heavy preponderance of factual evidence.

For anyone to make a statement to the contrary that; "They will desperately cling to the notion that it's just "immigrants and Muslims raaargh they hate our Western way of life because Allah!". It's the easy option."
is not only a "narrow or simplistic viewpoint" it is a very juvenile one.

Now I will address this and draw your attention to something. I said the notion that it is JUST immigrants / Muslims etc. Not that it isn't. Just that there is more to it. So much more, that your solution simply would not work. It would not stop this. It's a red herring.
[QUOTE=kirklancaster;7463692]
As for;

"People naturally WANT to believe that terrorist attacks and organisations are blotches of darkness and hatred on a world that is light and good. They can't handle the truth that terrorism is just a tiny glimpse, a shark fin peeking through the waves, a symptom of a darkness that runs deeper than they can bare to imagine. "

I haven't a clue what you're going on about. People want the answer to be simple because then they have somewhere to focus their understandable anger and because it makes it seem like the solution might be simple, too. Which makes them feel safer. If people want something to be true then they are more likely to believe that it is.


Finally, I wish you'd explain:

"Like I said - duck and cover. This **** is scripted. You just have to hope that you're not a Redshirt like Charlie."

And tell us all just "who" has scripted just "what" ****? Is it Shane Black, or William Goldman? _________________


I don't know if you know what a "redshirt" is but just incase: it originates from Star Trek, and has become shorthand for a small character who is killed off for the sake of advancing the plot. I. E. A redshirt is killed by aliens, so now Kirk and Co must destroy those aliens, to avenge redshirt and to save the enterprise. And the audience cheers them on.

I can't tell you "who" has motivation for this absolute madness, Kirk, nor what those motivations are. The geopolitical mess tangled up in this, and in Russia / Ukraine, and North Korea and their hackers, is near unfathomable but that does not mean it isn't there.

You get to see the villains, you get to see the heroes, you get to see the action. You DON'T get to see the writers. Thats the whole point. I know you don't understand this Kirk and I know that you disagree, I know that for you it is simple. That herding all of the immigrants into a corner in the middle east and dropping a bomb would solve the problem forever. But I will never share that ideology.

I know that the terrorists are Muslims and I know that their individual motivations are hatred and religion. I also know that if it wasn't them, it would simply be someone else.

[Kizzy]

Yet. Britain has waded into several conflicts and turned itself into a target for retribution. We're at war whether we like it or not.

I don't know waded in is the correct term Z, we will have treaties with other countries to provide aid and or support and them us didn't you do this diplomatic type stuff in uni?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster View Post

FACT:

A) The terrorists committing these atrocious acts of barbaric cold-blooded murder of innocent civilians, are MUSLIM by FAITH. Extremist they undoubtedly are, and not typical of ORDINARY MUSLIMS they may be, but MUSLIM they are, nonetheless.

I've just nicked a bit of your posts to make a side note that not all terrorists are Muslim from birth, that some are converts identified and radicalised by extremists.

[Cherie]

Yet. Britain has waded into several conflicts and turned itself into a target for retribution. We're at war whether we like it or not.

Bali has been a terrorist target, what did they do to deserve it., my point is as civilians apart from being searched at airports our lives are practically unaffected by current events, not saying that might not change in the future.

[Sticks]

Point of information, the 7/7 bombers were British Born Muslims.

[arista]

Point of information, the 7/7 bombers were British Born Muslims.


Yes Revenge for Blairs/Bush Iraq

[kirklancaster]

Point of information, the 7/7 bombers were British Born Muslims.

True Sticks, but I did say:

"Unfettered IMMIGRATION - especially of Muslims - is causally linked,, beyond all doubt to the murderous acts of terrorism currently being perpetrated in various countries throughout the world. The atrocities in France, Australia, Bulgaria, The UK, Azerbaijan, Greece (do you need anymore?) were carried out by IMMIGRANTS living in those countries, or sons of IMMIGRANTS who were born in those countries." :

[Nedusa]

It's not apologetics Kirk, I am absolutely not denying that religious extremists are dangerous or that these atrocities are being carried out by religious extremists. I am an anti-theist. I can't stand organised religion. It's been used to twist and manipulate world events for THOUSANDS of years and enough is enough.

However, I am also well aware that the people who are creating these "monsters" (I will conceed and use that phrase) are NOT religious. They use religion because they know that they can warp it to their purpose. The masterminds don't blow themselves up, they send gullible kids to do it. Why? Why, if they believe truly in martyrdom and that they will go to paradise, do they convert and twist others to do it in their place? Answer: because they do not believe in paradise. They know it's a lie. But they know that others do believe it and that is useful to them.

Islam truly is the only religion left that would follow such a path. A thousand years ago, Christianity was used in EXACTLY the same way, to use the devout as weapons. As I said, the older religions have reached a stage where they are more philosophical and interpretative and mostly not dogmatic. Dogmatic churches are small and not useful.

I don't believe in the illuminati Kirk but I do know that you must look deeper than surface appearances to find the truth in this world.


Interesting post, and in the same vein did anyone see the videos floating around the web that set to show that the film footage of the Paris policeman being executed by the two gunman on wed is in fact a fake.

The video blogger went into great detail shoeing that this was faked as there was no blood and the gun that fired the headshot to kill the policeman actually missed his head .

He showed all the camera angles and trajectory points and he also proved the position of the shooting had changed from the footage shown the day after.

An interesting and thought provoking video which left me puzzled as I could not fault his evidence.

So now a new dimension enters the story, was any of it faked ? If so why ? To benefit whom ?

Anyone on here hear any of this ? Or can shed any light on this .





.

[Crimson Dynamo]

until we stop parents and communities from abusing children with religious lies this will always happen

[user104658]

until we stop parents and communities from abusing children with religious lies this will always happen
Actually agree with that LT. I fully accept any adult's right to explore and choose a religion if that's what floats their boat but I reject the notion that parents get to be the masters of their children's destinies by indoctrinating them into a church - any church - while their minds are still so fragile and easily moulded. People instinctually are horrified by it when it's something like scientology or a tiny cult run by Billy Hick on a farm in central America, yet when it's a "proper" religion it's accepted without question. Why? Just because "more people believe it"? It's not actually any different... 20 followers, 50,000 or 2 billion... Forcing a religious belief system onto a young mind is not right. It lays a groundwork that is wide open to exploitation. And that does apply to all of the major religions.

[user104658]

Interesting post, and in the same vein did anyone see the videos floating around the web that set to show that the film footage of the Paris policeman being executed by the two gunman on wed is in fact a fake.

The video blogger went into great detail shoeing that this was faked as there was no blood and the gun that fired the headshot to kill the policeman actually missed his head .

He showed all the camera angles and trajectory points and he also proved the position of the shooting had changed from the footage shown the day after.

An interesting and thought provoking video which left me puzzled as I could not fault his evidence.

So now a new dimension enters the story, was any of it faked ? If so why ? To benefit whom ?

Anyone on here hear any of this ? Or can shed any light on this .





.
I'm not huge on Internet conspiracy theories usually, but I do know that an assault rifle firing a 7.62x39mm round at near point blank range into someone's skull would make a serious ****ing mess. I have to wonder.

[Z]

I don't know waded in is the correct term Z, we will have treaties with other countries to provide aid and or support and them us didn't you do this diplomatic type stuff in uni?

I think it's all too easy for us, UK citizens in 2015, to see what's happening around us and not take into account the decades and decades of history that have led to this point - the many different religions forced to live together and share territory in the Middle East were forced to do so by Western leaders who were acting in their own self interest. So I think it was a mistake for us to go into Iraq in 2003 because it's just kicking the hornet's nest (yet again) - we, the collective we, are to blame for stirring up the religious tension in that region just as much as the people who are living there are to blame for acting on their tension and irritations. My comment was coming from that point of view - I think the more we continue to get involved in the Middle East, the more likely we are to be on the receiving end of a hellish series of terrorist attacks that might never end because we live in the age of the internet and smart phones and travelling without borders because we're in the European Union and everybody is better informed than they ever were at any point in time in history... That is why I believe that we're at war whether we like it or not. Except what we're at war with doesn't have a territory we can beat into submission like all enemies in all previous wars known to man have had... because no army can stop an idea, you can't kill an idea. The idea is that the West is decadent and has caused a great deal of pain and suffering to devout Muslims and the West needs to be punished... and I don't even think they're wrong in thinking that way, because it's true, we, as a collective whole, over the last century at the very least, have helped to create this mess... which leads me onto Cherie's post...

Bali has been a terrorist target, what did they do to deserve it., my point is as civilians apart from being searched at airports our lives are practically unaffected by current events, not saying that might not change in the future.

Bali was a terrorist target because it had been Westernised - it had been subverted into a Western hedonistic tourist trap. I want to agree with you that our lives are practically unaffected but I can't because the truth is that our lives have already been affected, it's just that we won't wake up and smell the coffee until it happens on our doorstep. Do you think the people of Australia thought they were unaffected until a plane full of their nationals was shot down in Ukrainian territory or until a cafe was taken hostage by a radical preacher and several of its citizens taken hostage and a few even killed? Did the people of France think they were unaffected until some office workers were mown down, police officers shot, people taken hostage? The USA and 9/11? The UK and 7/7? We're at war with an idea that is so far widespread that I'm not sure there is any solution but to either back down completely and stop meddling in their affairs or to blow the world to bits in the hope that we might kill an abstract idea and somehow terrify people who aren't afraid to die into not pursuing their suicidal logic anymore.

The world is not a nice place to be living in right now. World War III is happening and those of us with a warm bed to sleep in at night won't believe it because it's much easier to convince ourselves that everything will be alright because it isn't happening to us, until it happens to us. Then we'll want the world to take notice of us but the world won't because everyone else is doing the exact same thing. I just hope I'm not one of the unlucky ones who gets caught up in the crisis when the **** eventually hits the fan in the UK. If it can happen to the USA, Australia and France, it can happen to us too. Terrorism doesn't respect borders.

[Ninastar]

Oh Greg.... :clap1: :love:

[arista]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/01/10/2492AF2700000578-0-image-a-9_1420926718231.jpg

Sticks
King Rupert is with your viewpoint

[kirklancaster]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/01/10/2492AF2700000578-0-image-a-9_1420926718231.jpg

Sticks
King Rupert is with your viewpoint

Is your comment a mistake Arista or are you being sarcastic? Because King Rupert's viewpoint is anything but Stick's viewpoint.

[arista]

Is your comment a mistake Arista or are you being sarcastic? Because King Rupert's viewpoint is anything but Stick's viewpoint.



I thought it will make Sticks Happy


King Rupert does not need to post on twitter

[Cherie]

I think it's all too easy for us, UK citizens in 2015, to see what's happening around us and not take into account the decades and decades of history that have led to this point - the many different religions forced to live together and share territory in the Middle East were forced to do so by Western leaders who were acting in their own self interest. So I think it was a mistake for us to go into Iraq in 2003 because it's just kicking the hornet's nest (yet again) - we, the collective we, are to blame for stirring up the religious tension in that region just as much as the people who are living there are to blame for acting on their tension and irritations. My comment was coming from that point of view - I think the more we continue to get involved in the Middle East, the more likely we are to be on the receiving end of a hellish series of terrorist attacks that might never end because we live in the age of the internet and smart phones and travelling without borders because we're in the European Union and everybody is better informed than they ever were at any point in time in history... That is why I believe that we're at war whether we like it or not. Except what we're at war with doesn't have a territory we can beat into submission like all enemies in all previous wars known to man have had... because no army can stop an idea, you can't kill an idea. The idea is that the West is decadent and has caused a great deal of pain and suffering to devout Muslims and the West needs to be punished... and I don't even think they're wrong in thinking that way, because it's true, we, as a collective whole, over the last century at the very least, have helped to create this mess... which leads me onto Cherie's post...



Bali was a terrorist target because it had been Westernised - it had been subverted into a Western hedonistic tourist trap. I want to agree with you that our lives are practically unaffected but I can't because the truth is that our lives have already been affected, it's just that we won't wake up and smell the coffee until it happens on our doorstep. Do you think the people of Australia thought they were unaffected until a plane full of their nationals was shot down in Ukrainian territory or until a cafe was taken hostage by a radical preacher and several of its citizens taken hostage and a few even killed? Did the people of France think they were unaffected until some office workers were mown down, police officers shot, people taken hostage? The USA and 9/11? The UK and 7/7? We're at war with an idea that is so far widespread that I'm not sure there is any solution but to either back down completely and stop meddling in their affairs or to blow the world to bits in the hope that we might kill an abstract idea and somehow terrify people who aren't afraid to die into not pursuing their suicidal logic anymore.

The world is not a nice place to be living in right now. World War III is happening and those of us with a warm bed to sleep in at night won't believe it because it's much easier to convince ourselves that everything will be alright because it isn't happening to us, until it happens to us. Then we'll want the world to take notice of us but the world won't because everyone else is doing the exact same thing. I just hope I'm not one of the unlucky ones who gets caught up in the crisis when the **** eventually hits the fan in the UK. If it can happen to the USA, Australia and France, it can happen to us too. Terrorism doesn't respect borders.


Z what do you mean when the **** "eventually" hits the fan in the UK, Lee Rigby, the 7/7 bombings? and before that the IRA bombings, the UK has long been a target of terrorists. especially London, has it stopped people going about their daily business, has anyone had a second thought as to whether they should attend a crowded event, or take a train, or an airplane. No one said the World is a nice place now, but exactly when back through the ages has the World been a nice place, name me one era when dark and evil deeds were not carried out in the name of something or other, it's not so long ago we were putting kids up chimneys! at the moment countries are subject to random acts of terror, that has been the case for years, not sure what has suddenly changed? is it because people who live outside the major cities have suddenly realised oh this could come to my doorstep? because people living in major Cities have had that threat hanging over them for decades.

[kirklancaster]

I thought it will make Sticks Happy


King Rupert does not need to post on twitter

Aah. Arista is capable of brilliant sarcasm as well as being most strong and most wise. :worship:

[user104658]

No one said the World is a nice place now, but exactly when back through the ages has the World been a nice place, name me one era when dark and evil deeds were not carried out in the name of something or other, it's not so long ago we were putting kids up chimneys!

You may have a point there, it's not like things have ever been any better, and throughout history have at times been far worse for everyday people. Though I would personally argue, rarely much worse politically.

Personally, I think the only real difference is that the world is now so "connected", and everyone knows about everything that's going on. 150 years ago, if something like this happened in Paris it would probably have taken weeks for the news to spread beyond the major cities. A hundred years before that, residents of smaller towns and villages would probably never have heard anything about it. Most probably wouldn't even know about something like this happening in London.

But now - we don't just hear about it quickly - the whole world hears about it instantly. We hear about it live while the events are ongoing. And then we hear the follow-ups from normal people on social networking. Even as recently as 15 years ago that wasn't the case. Then we hear from world leaders within hours. Things become major global events that, once upon a time, simply wouldn't even have made front page news... to be read by the small percentage of people who were even literate.

[Kizzy]

I think it's all too easy for us, UK citizens in 2015, to see what's happening around us and not take into account the decades and decades of history that have led to this point - the many different religions forced to live together and share territory in the Middle East were forced to do so by Western leaders who were acting in their own self interest. So I think it was a mistake for us to go into Iraq in 2003 because it's just kicking the hornet's nest (yet again) - we, the collective we, are to blame for stirring up the religious tension in that region just as much as the people who are living there are to blame for acting on their tension and irritations. My comment was coming from that point of view - I think the more we continue to get involved in the Middle East, the more likely we are to be on the receiving end of a hellish series of terrorist attacks that might never end because we live in the age of the internet and smart phones and travelling without borders because we're in the European Union and everybody is better informed than they ever were at any point in time in history... That is why I believe that we're at war whether we like it or not. Except what we're at war with doesn't have a territory we can beat into submission like all enemies in all previous wars known to man have had... because no army can stop an idea, you can't kill an idea. The idea is that the West is decadent and has caused a great deal of pain and suffering to devout Muslims and the West needs to be punished... and I don't even think they're wrong in thinking that way, because it's true, we, as a collective whole, over the last century at the very least, have helped to create this mess... which leads me onto Cherie's post...



Bali was a terrorist target because it had been Westernised - it had been subverted into a Western hedonistic tourist trap. I want to agree with you that our lives are practically unaffected but I can't because the truth is that our lives have already been affected, it's just that we won't wake up and smell the coffee until it happens on our doorstep. Do you think the people of Australia thought they were unaffected until a plane full of their nationals was shot down in Ukrainian territory or until a cafe was taken hostage by a radical preacher and several of its citizens taken hostage and a few even killed? Did the people of France think they were unaffected until some office workers were mown down, police officers shot, people taken hostage? The USA and 9/11? The UK and 7/7? We're at war with an idea that is so far widespread that I'm not sure there is any solution but to either back down completely and stop meddling in their affairs or to blow the world to bits in the hope that we might kill an abstract idea and somehow terrify people who aren't afraid to die into not pursuing their suicidal logic anymore.

The world is not a nice place to be living in right now. World War III is happening and those of us with a warm bed to sleep in at night won't believe it because it's much easier to convince ourselves that everything will be alright because it isn't happening to us, until it happens to us. Then we'll want the world to take notice of us but the world won't because everyone else is doing the exact same thing. I just hope I'm not one of the unlucky ones who gets caught up in the crisis when the **** eventually hits the fan in the UK. If it can happen to the USA, Australia and France, it can happen to us too. Terrorism doesn't respect borders.

I totally agree, someone posted a vid once of a news interview with a Muslim academic, he suggested that when those captured fighting for the taliban were shown videos of anti-war protests in the UK.. they couldn't believe it that we didn't want war at all as it was not what they had been led to believe.
I think modern war is a construct for power and the control of natural resources, it has nothing to do with religion or people or even money.
We just have to hope this was just a lone wolf attack with no direct involvement from any organisation.

[user104658]

I think modern war is a construct for power and the control of natural resources, it has nothing to do with religion or people or even money.


I completely agree, and I don't even think it's just modern war. It's pretty much every war throughout history. There's a heavy focus when it comes to WWII on Hitler's odd "quirks" involving a master race but, in truth, his main goal was to conquer Europe and use it as a staging area to then conquer the Americas (and presumably eventually the world). He wanted to control ALL of the resources and rebuild the world under one banner (his). It just so happened that he held many odd beliefs and, as his power started to grow, he decided to indulge those beliefs. In fact, I personally believe that is he hadn't been so distracted by his ethnic cleansing campaigns and his obsession with the paranormal, Germany probably would not have been defeated.

Anyway, got a bit sidetracked there, but these modern wars - like I was trying to say earlier, I don't think most of the people involved in these conflicts really comprehend what's going on. Even our own high level politicians in the west. I think they buy into the storyline as much as anyone else and they fully believe their role.

As for who the people directing the flow - the "scriptwriters" - are, it's also so difficult to understand. Sir Lancaster asked me earlier to explain "who" these people are, I think imagining that I was talking about some sort of Bond villain character sat in a bunker stroking a white cat, but it's not that. It's not one person or a group of people with any specific motivation. It's more like a tidal force of collective consciousness, made up of all sorts of individual motivations, and yes, at the end of the day it only ever comes down to "power".

[Sticks]

I am not sure I agree with Murdoch actually

My viewpoint has been a pragmatic one, it is not wise to publish inflammatory material that will provoke a deadly violent reaction. sometimes for a greater good we must self censor.

[Z]

Z what do you mean when the **** "eventually" hits the fan in the UK, Lee Rigby, the 7/7 bombings? and before that the IRA bombings, the UK has long been a target of terrorists. especially London, has it stopped people going about their daily business, has anyone had a second thought as to whether they should attend a crowded event, or take a train, or an airplane. No one said the World is a nice place now, but exactly when back through the ages has the World been a nice place, name me one era when dark and evil deeds were not carried out in the name of something or other, it's not so long ago we were putting kids up chimneys! at the moment countries are subject to random acts of terror, that has been the case for years, not sure what has suddenly changed? is it because people who live outside the major cities have suddenly realised oh this could come to my doorstep? because people living in major Cities have had that threat hanging over them for decades.

What I mean is that I think things are going to get worse and we're going to see more cases like the series of events in Paris happening around the world as small groups of extremist Muslims around the world start to play copycat. We live in the globalised age of information where everything is instant to us; it's going to become impossible to stop. The world has never been a nice place and has always been at war but the world has never been so well connected and now I think because of this we're right at the beginning of a new kind of war that none of us are prepared for because there is no historical precedent for it. What has suddenly changed is that we're not going through some diplomatic process where we're formally declaring war on a nation and we duke it out and then sign a treaty when someone's been battered into submission or we take their territory - the enemy is all around us, it's over the sea, it's next door, it's on another continent, it's someone we know. My belief is that soon we WILL all be too scared to go about our regular lives because our lives as we know them will be changed forever when terrorism hits us in our small communities and isn't some big city phenomenon anymore.

I totally agree, someone posted a vid once of a news interview with a Muslim academic, he suggested that when those captured fighting for the taliban were shown videos of anti-war protests in the UK.. they couldn't believe it that we didn't want war at all as it was not what they had been led to believe.
I think modern war is a construct for power and the control of natural resources, it has nothing to do with religion or people or even money.
We just have to hope this was just a lone wolf attack with no direct involvement from any organisation.

Yes. Just as there are plenty of people in the UK who think Islam = extremism, there are people who think West = evil. Religion and people who follow one fanatically are just pawns in the battle for geopolitical control. Russia and China frequently block Eurasian relations in security council meetings to stop the USA from political manoeuvering. Meanwhile, countries that are not one of those three, and the people living in them, suffer endlessly because they've been turned into a political statement.

[arista]

I am not sure I agree with Murdoch actually

My viewpoint has been a pragmatic one, it is not wise to publish inflammatory material that will provoke a deadly violent reaction. sometimes for a greater good we must self censor.


OK

[MTVN]

Couldn't agree more with this article: http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/paris-attacks-dont-blame-these-atrocities-on-security-failures-9970228.html

Somehow the degree of failure of the "war on terror" launched by Bush and supported by Britain has never led to those who launched it being held culpable. Fail it demonstrably did, since in 2001 al-Qaeda had a few hundred activists confined to a few camps and towns in Afghanistan and Iraq. Fourteen years later, after vast expenditure on anti-terrorism by the US and its allies, al-Qaeda-type movements control large areas of Iraq and Syria and dominate the Sunni Arab armed opposition in both countries. Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, based in Yemen, is a growing power as the shock troops of the Sunni community. On the same day as the Charlie Hebdo attack in Paris, some 36 police cadets were killed in the Yemeni capital Sanaa by an al-Qaeda suicide bomber.
...

In the wake of the Paris killings there is much speculation about what links there may have been with foreign jihadis in the shape of Isis or al-Qaeda in Yemen. But this rather misses the point. Attacks on civilians require weapons, ammunition and the ability to use them, but no great level of combat training. What is really driving these attacks in Europe, and will go on doing so, is the collapse of so many Muslim states into violence and anarchy providing an ideal environment for Sunni jihadism to grow. Unsurprisingly, extreme fanatical Sunni jihadis, whom sympathisers might see as "holy warriors" and one Afghan journalist described as "holy fascists", do well in wartime conditions. The Isis, in particular, relates to the world around it almost solely through acts of violence.

...

The failure that has put all the world in danger is at the level of politics rather than security. It was political leaders who got rid of Saddam Hussein in Iraq, Muammar Gaddafi in Libya and have tried to displace Bashar al-Assad in Syria without thinking through the consequences. One can argue about whether or not this was a good thing to do, but the result of these actions has been to open the gates to al-Qaeda, Isis and their clones. From these savage conflicts sparks are bound to fly and start fires in Europe.

[Z]

I agree with that too, Matt.

[Livia]

I wonder how the secret and diplomatic services have managed to muddle though without addressing the simplistic ideals expressed in this thread.

[kirklancaster]

I wonder how the secret and diplomatic services have managed to muddle though without addressing the simplistic ideals expressed in this thread.

:clap1::clap1::clap1: And I don't care if you include my ideals as 'simplistic' in that Liv. :hehe:

[Livia]

:clap1::clap1::clap1: And I don't care if you include my ideals as 'simplistic' in that Liv. :hehe:

I'm referring to the idea that we've brought this all on ourselves. I'm referring to the constant accusation that the West is responsible for the murderous terrorist actions of ISIL. Isn't that what men who beat their wives say? You made me do it. Isn't that what the people who behead journalists say? You made me do it. All the while 17 people lay dead and countless other grieve all because a group of people who want to drag us back to the dark ages took exception to a drawing.

[user104658]

I'm referring to the idea that we've brought this all on ourselves. I'm referring to the constant accusation that the West is responsible for the murderous terrorist actions of ISIL. Isn't that what men who beat their wives say? You made me do it. Isn't that what the people who behead journalists say? You made me do it. All the while 17 people lay dead and countless other grieve all because a group of people who want to drag us back to the dark ages took exception to a drawing.

Come on Livia, in all seriousness, do you actually believe that the attack on Charlie Hebdo had anything to do with anyone taking an exception to a drawing? In all seriousness? Do you think when they sat down and discussed the "why" of what they were about to do (because it seems to have been exceptionally well planned), they said "because they drew Mohammad!!"?

Even if you do hypothetically take this event as nothing more than random extremist action... no one actually thinks it was about the cartoons themselves. An attack on the very idea of the free press itself - maybe. To send a message. But it's not because these terrorists saw the drawings and took offense. It's just... not.


Again removing any idea of defense or blame from the scenario: the west is not responsible for the actions of these individuals. The west however is (demonstrably) responsible for creating the chaotic environment of war that has allowed these groups to thrive and grow into a very real threat. Even if that was never the intention - even if the intention was to stamp them out and truly restore democracy to these regions - that is not what happened... it all went horribly wrong and the reach of these organisations grew exponentially. Your "secret and diplomatic services" didn't manage so well there, did they? Or am I wrong? Are you going to tell me that, actually, these wars successfully achieved exactly what they set out to achieve? Because if so, the news channels I'm watching must be being broadcast from some sort of horrible alternate reality...

Pointing this out is not a witch hunt. It's not saying "BLAME THE WEST!!" for the sake of someone to blame, or to be an "apologist" for terrorists. Hell... if it WAS possible to round every last one of them into one little patch of desert and nuke the living **** out of it, I'd say why not! Go for it! I don't really care - I'm not a particularly "nice" person. At least the problem would actually be solved.

No. Trying desperately to point out that raging and shouting and bombing is not the way to go isn't for the sake of the "poor little Muslims". It's because I wholeheartedly believe that these angry actions will have exactly the same effect as they did post-911. We'll "shock and awe" at them for a bit, send in some more troops for several years, realize "oh ****, this isn't really working, we'd better get our arses out of here" and leave behind an even bigger melting pot in which ever increasing numbers of Islamic extremists will spawn. We WILL NOT wipe them out. We will make more. It's inevitable. It'll continue in this cycle until they figure out how to build dirty bombs and eventually aquire warheads and then we'll all die. Meh. At least in the meantime, we can TRY not to be a part of the problem.

[MTVN]

Those 17 dead are at least owed our understanding, our appreciation that the rise of Islamic extremist groups is an incredibly complex phenomenon and - like it or not - Western foreign policy is a part of that phenomenon. Western involvement in the Middle East and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are a part of this story. As Robert Fisk was writing the other day, the bloody history of French-Algerian relations (http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/charlie-hebdo-paris-attack-brothers-campaign-of-terror-can-be-traced-back-to-algeria-in-1954-9969184.html) are a part of this story. Pretending it isn't will get us nowhere. Claiming that its tantamount to victim blaming to try and analyse the context behind these attacks will get us nowhere.

To quote from that article by Fisk:

Maybe all newspaper and television reports should carry a “history corner”, a little reminder that nothing – absolutely zilch – happens without a past. Massacres, bloodletting, fury, sorrow, police hunts (“widening” or “narrowing” as sub-editors wish) take the headlines. Always it’s the “who” and the “how” – but rarely the “why”. Take the crime against humanity in Paris this week – the words “atrocity” and “barbarity” somehow diminish the savagery of this act – and its immediate aftermath.

We know the victims: journalists, cartoonists, cops. And how they were killed. Masked gunmen, Kalashnikov automatic rifles, ruthless, almost professional nonchalance. And the answer to “why” was helpfully supplied by the murderers. They wanted to avenge “the Prophet” for Charlie Hebdo’s irreverent and (for Muslims) highly offensive cartoons. And of course, we must all repeat the rubric: nothing – nothing ever – could justify these cruel acts of mass murder. And no, the killers cannot call on history to justify their crimes.

But there’s an important context that somehow got left out of the story this week, the “history corner” that many Frenchmen as well as Algerians prefer to ignore: the bloody 1954-62 struggle of an entire people for freedom against a brutal imperial regime, a prolonged war which remains the foundational quarrel of Arabs and French to this day.


So yes, nothing can justify these attacks. There is not a shred of responsibility that the cartoonists need to take for the way that they were gunned down in cold blood. ISIS and Al Qaeda are murdering scum who deserve no sympathy. No one has sought to deny any of that. But let us not allow it to wilfully blind ourselves to the wider picture, a picture that is far bigger than three gunmen and some offensive cartoons. Let us not allow it to prevent us from trying to comprehend the true extent of the threat, it's character, it's motivation and it's background. Otherwise we will never be able to confront it, otherwise we will just feed the perpetual cycle of violence.

Edit - was posting the same time as TS above - I share his sentiments

[user104658]

So yes, nothing can justify these attacks. There is not a shred of responsibility that the cartoonists need to take for the way that they were gunned down in cold blood. ISIS and Al Qaeda are murdering scum who deserve no sympathy. No one has sought to deny any of that. But let us not allow it to wilfully blind ourselves to the wider picture


I've said this quite a few times over the last few days but, apparently, it's still being a sympathiser.

I guess I look at it as being like this but on a grander scale: The majority of notable psychopathic serial killers have seriously messed up backstories. Yes, they are monsters. Yes, they are unfathomably dangerous, yes they have killed innocent people and destroyed other innocent lives in the process and yes, they should almost always be put down like dogs for it because they are indeed "unfixable monsters". But does that mean that we should entirely ignore their backgrounds - childhoods filled with extreme abuse (often sexual, usually at the hands of their own parents) that broke and twisted them into what they became. Does that inspire sympathy? In some, maybe. For me, not really. They became what they became. Regardless: it should NEVER be ignored, because understanding and acknowledging what CREATES monsters is what will allow us to stop them from being created in the first place. Countless books have been written on the psychologies of these people. And it has positively impacted how we care for and protect young people.

There is absolutely no point in wiping terrorists from the face of the planet whilst failing completely to acknowledge what the circumstances were that created such hatred in the first place. We have to examine it and acknowledge the past to ensure that history stops repeating itself. What baffles me, is the number of people in threads like this who would cry "none of that matters a jot!" and ignore it completely in favour of unbridled rage and revenge. Baffles me, but doesn't surprise me.

[arista]

Ch4HD News Live just confirmed
the Terrorist who took over the Kosher market
and shot dead the Police Women
had shot a jogger some time before

[Kizzy]

I'm referring to the idea that we've brought this all on ourselves. I'm referring to the constant accusation that the West is responsible for the murderous terrorist actions of ISIL. Isn't that what men who beat their wives say? You made me do it. Isn't that what the people who behead journalists say? You made me do it. All the while 17 people lay dead and countless other grieve all because a group of people who want to drag us back to the dark ages took exception to a drawing.

We are not NATO livia we're just bods on a forum discussing contemporary issues.
Nobody is saying anyone is directly responsible for the rise and rise of terrorism against the west, there's just a few theories being kicked about is all.

[kirklancaster]

Those 17 dead are at least owed our understanding, our appreciation that the rise of Islamic extremist groups is an incredibly complex phenomenon and - like it or not - Western foreign policy is a part of that phenomenon. Western involvement in the Middle East and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are a part of this story. As Robert Fisk was writing the other day, the bloody history of French-Algerian relations (http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/charlie-hebdo-paris-attack-brothers-campaign-of-terror-can-be-traced-back-to-algeria-in-1954-9969184.html) are a part of this story. Pretending it isn't will get us nowhere. Claiming that its tantamount to victim blaming to try and analyse the context behind these attacks will get us nowhere.

To quote from that article by Fisk:



So yes, nothing can justify these attacks. There is not a shred of responsibility that the cartoonists need to take for the way that they were gunned down in cold blood. ISIS and Al Qaeda are murdering scum who deserve no sympathy. No one has sought to deny any of that. But let us not allow it to wilfully blind ourselves to the wider picture, a picture that is far bigger than three gunmen and some offensive cartoons. Let us not allow it to prevent us from trying to comprehend the true extent of the threat, it's character, it's motivation and it's background. Otherwise we will never be able to confront it, otherwise we will just feed the perpetual cycle of violence.

Edit - was posting the same time as TS above - I share his sentiments

No, sorry MTVN - you are posting from a totally different perspective from T.S and certain others, though T.S does keep changing his stance.

I agree with most of what you say and I genuinely respect your passion and belief in what you are saying - it is patent.

[Kizzy]

No, sorry MTVN - you are posting from a totally different perspective from T.S and certain others, though T.S does keep changing his stance.

I agree with most of what you say and I genuinely respect your passion and belief in what you are saying - it is patent.

Stick to your own perspective and let others figure out where they stand on theirs maybe?
I happen to agree with MTVN as it is a much more honest and pragmatic view than many, the age of denial and belligerence is over.

[user104658]

No, sorry MTVN - you are posting from a totally different perspective from T.S and certain others, though T.S does keep changing his stance.

Not entirely sure what qualifies you to decide which perspective someone else is posting from... but anyhoo...

Whilst my posts may at times be "babbling" (I prefer "rambling", personally) and a couple of the things I say may appear to be contradictory, e.g. trying to understand the perspective of Muslim communities and what turns people to terrorism whilst similtaneously not giving a **** if they're wiped out in nuclear hellfire, this is only because I often post a "train of thought" rather than a focused and referenced thesis. Ultimately, this is a chat forum and not an academic discussion. My exact thoughts and opinions on many issues are not 100% nailed down and do occasionally alter slightly, and don't have the quality of steely obstinance that yours appear to (perhaps that comes with age?), but I do feel comfortable in assuring you that my "stance" on this issue, broadly, has not "changed" at all.

[arista]

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2015/1/9/1420836618489/Martin-Rowson-10.1.2015-016.jpg

[James]

From the article.


The failure that has put all the world in danger is at the level of politics rather than security. It was political leaders who got rid of Saddam Hussein in Iraq, Muammar Gaddafi in Libya and have tried to displace Bashar al-Assad in Syria without thinking through the consequences.


I'm no great expert on the subject, but surely the Syrian civil war (which has fueled extremism) started because of the Arab Spring protests, and those started because people in a lot of these countries were sick and tired of being ruled by dictators.

I do think we blame ourselves too much for a lot of these problems.

[MTVN]

No, sorry MTVN - you are posting from a totally different perspective from T.S and certain others, though T.S does keep changing his stance.

I agree with most of what you say and I genuinely respect your passion and belief in what you are saying - it is patent.

Thanks Kirk, but reading the post that TS made just before mine I do agree with a lot of what he says, and a lot of what he's said throughout the thread. I don't agree with the theory of who's pulling the strings though.

From the article.



I'm no great expert on the subject, but surely the Syrian civil war (which has fueled extremism) started because of the Arab Spring protests, and those started because people in a lot of these countries were sick and tired of being ruled by dictators.

I do think we blame ourselves too much for a lot of these problems.

Mmm to some extent maybe. But the character of opposition forces was IMO always a lot more sinister than we in the West realised, not just in Syria but elsewhere. I'm not sure it's coincidence that in the countries where we once hailed the birth of the Arab Spring there now exists chaos, violence, and hotbeds of dangerous ideologies. Perhaps the only country that has emerged in a reasonable state is Tunisia. Egypt turned reactionary and is now essentially a military dictatorship. In Libya you have numerous warring militias fighting over Gaddafi's ruins. In Syria the only meaningful opposition that now exists is that of the extremists; ISIS and their cronies.

I'm sure there were some in the original Arab Spring protests who craved western style democracy and were sick of their dictators, our media seized on that to present it as the long-awaited Arab awakening, evidence that the Neocons were right all along - they all wanted democracy really, we just needed to show them they wanted it. But the opposition was also always less unified than we liked to think, it was always plagued by infighting, differing motivations and ethnic/religious tension. A lot of these Middle Eastern countries have always been melting pots of such tensions, and as brutal as they were the only things keeping a lid on those tensions were the dictators. They go and you have a dangerous power vacuum, as you have now in Libya, in Iraq, and to some extent in Syria, though it'd be worse if Assad had been removed. A lot of Middle Eastern dictators were/are monsters, but they understood their countries. We didn't. Almost every country in recent years that we thought was ready to rise up against their leader has gone to hell.

I'm reading a book atm on how much of a failure it was to try and impose western style democracy on Iraq and it has this quote in from T.E. Lawrence. He was writing in 1917 but it seems to apply today: "Do not try to do too much with your own hands. Better the Arabs do it tolerably than that you do it perfectly. It is their war, and you are to help them, not to win it for them. Actually, also, under the very odd conditions of Arabia, your practical work will not be as good as, perhaps, you think it is."

[Nedusa]

Come on Livia, in all seriousness, do you actually believe that the attack on Charlie Hebdo had anything to do with anyone taking an exception to a drawing? In all seriousness? Do you think when they sat down and discussed the "why" of what they were about to do (because it seems to have been exceptionally well planned), they said "because they drew Mohammad!!"?

Even if you do hypothetically take this event as nothing more than random extremist action... no one actually thinks it was about the cartoons themselves. An attack on the very idea of the free press itself - maybe. To send a message. But it's not because these terrorists saw the drawings and took offense. It's just... not.


Again removing any idea of defense or blame from the scenario: the west is not responsible for the actions of these individuals. The west however is (demonstrably) responsible for creating the chaotic environment of war that has allowed these groups to thrive and grow into a very real threat. Even if that was never the intention - even if the intention was to stamp them out and truly restore democracy to these regions - that is not what happened... it all went horribly wrong and the reach of these organisations grew exponentially. Your "secret and diplomatic services" didn't manage so well there, did they? Or am I wrong? Are you going to tell me that, actually, these wars successfully achieved exactly what they set out to achieve? Because if so, the news channels I'm watching must be being broadcast from some sort of horrible alternate reality...

Pointing this out is not a witch hunt. It's not saying "BLAME THE WEST!!" for the sake of someone to blame, or to be an "apologist" for terrorists. Hell... if it WAS possible to round every last one of them into one little patch of desert and nuke the living **** out of it, I'd say why not! Go for it! I don't really care - I'm not a particularly "nice" person. At least the problem would actually be solved.

No. Trying desperately to point out that raging and shouting and bombing is not the way to go isn't for the sake of the "poor little Muslims". It's because I wholeheartedly believe that these angry actions will have exactly the same effect as they did post-911. We'll "shock and awe" at them for a bit, send in some more troops for several years, realize "oh ****, this isn't really working, we'd better get our arses out of here" and leave behind an even bigger melting pot in which ever increasing numbers of Islamic extremists will spawn. We WILL NOT wipe them out. We will make more. It's inevitable. It'll continue in this cycle until they figure out how to build dirty bombs and eventually aquire warheads and then we'll all die. Meh. At least in the meantime, we can TRY not to be a part of the problem.


That's a very pessimistic fatalistic view of things, surely there are some other endgame options.

Maybe the put them all into a field and set off a few warheads is a better option.

I'm getting very depressed about this whole situation, as it does seem to be getting worse year by year.





.

[kirklancaster]

Stick to your own perspective and let others figure out where they stand on theirs maybe?
I happen to agree with MTVN as it is a much more honest and pragmatic view than many, the age of denial and belligerence is over.

Are you telling me that I cannot have an opinion on another poster's perspective?

Don't even try giving me orders.

[kirklancaster]

Thanks Kirk, but reading the post that TS made just before mine I do agree with a lot of what he says, and a lot of what he's said throughout the thread. I don't agree with the theory of who's pulling the strings though.


The trouble is MTVN - T.S's points which you agree with, are not only a complete reversal of his stance but also are the very points I made which he heavily criticised me for and posted responses taking me to task for holding those views. He even uses the terminology I used which he professed in several responses to 'deplore'.

This is why I stated that your perspective was different.

[Kizzy]

Are you telling me that I cannot have an opinion on another poster's perspective?

Don't even try giving me orders.

Are you ordering me not to give you orders?..

[user104658]

The trouble is MTVN - T.S's points which you agree with, are not only a complete reversal of his stance

No.

but also are the very points I made which he heavily criticised me for and posted responses taking me to task for holding those views.
No...

He even uses the terminology I used which he professed in several responses to 'deplore'.


http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j130/Hannibalism_photos/bloodyguy.gif

[kirklancaster]

From the article.

I'm no great expert on the subject, but surely the Syrian civil war (which has fueled extremism) started because of the Arab Spring protests, and those started because people in a lot of these countries were sick and tired of being ruled by dictators.

I do think we blame ourselves too much for a lot of these problems.

I think so too James.

[letmein]

A girl I work with said "I'm a terrible person for wanting to have children, what kind of selfish monster would bring a child into this world?" in reference to this attack. I don't want to live in this world anymore, quite fancy just going to a remote island and living with a small community and being done with it.

Americans have been through way worse than this. Talk to them about it.

[Z]

Americans have been through way worse than this. Talk to them about it.

The girl I work with is Canadian, we were speaking about what had happened in France but more generally too about terrorism and the war on terror and how the world is just full of crazy people. I wouldn't even put America in the top 5 for country on the receiving end of global atrocities to be honest.

[Sticks]

The Islamic State has hacked the US military's Youtube and Twitter accounts, and possibly more that the US is not saying. The Islamic state has started to publish details of the addresses of families of US soldiers, warning them that their families are now being targeted.

See here (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-30785232)


Maybe we should more careful what we say about Muslims, Islam and their Holy Prophet, as they are watching

:shocked:

[arista]

Sticks there is a thread about that.

[arista]

New Charlie Hebdo To Show Mohammed Cartoons


http://news.sky.com/story/1406541/new-charlie-hebdo-to-show-mohammed-cartoons

[Cherie]

The Islamic State has hacked the US military's Youtube and Twitter accounts, and possibly more that the US is not saying. The Islamic state has started to publish details of the addresses of families of US soldiers, warning them that their families are now being targeted.

See here (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-30785232)


Maybe we should more careful what we say about Muslims, Islam and their Holy Prophet, as they are watching

:shocked:

Poor Kirk

[Sticks]

Sticks there is a thread about that.

Sorry, did not spot it