Obama throws Christians under a bus to defend ISLAM

[Crimson Dynamo]

http://i.guim.co.uk/static/w-620/h--/q-95/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2015/2/7/1423315931106/1ac6ef6b-bb2d-408d-bfad-c4390ec71f61-1020x612.jpeg

At the National Prayer Breakfast :umm2:, President Obama made a statement:

Humanity has been grappling with these questions throughout human history. And lest we get on our high horse and think this is unique to some other place, remember that during the Crusades and the Inquisition, people committed terrible deeds in the name of Christ. In our home country, slavery and Jim Crow all too often was justified in the name of Christ.



Said former Virginia Gov. Jim Gilmore, a Republican, “The president’s comments this morning at the prayer breakfast are the most offensive I’ve ever heard a president make in my lifetime … He has offended every believing Christian in the United States.” Added Bill Donohue, the president of the Catholic League

I am sorry but the "leader of the free world" thinks that muttering under your breath will be heard by some god thing in the sky who watches 20,000 die a day from hunger

no wonder the world is f ucked up


Only when America tells the world that religion is made up rubbish will we move on as the human race

what do you think?

[user104658]

Come-on now Lt, you're on TiBB. Didn't you know that in the Big Book of Alternate Tibby Histories, the crusades and the Spanish inquisition didn't happen? They are just made up tales designed to discredit Jesus. Probably invented by Muslims. Obama is probably a covert Muslim. Why else would he ever say anything about Christianity that isn't entirely positive? I literally can't think of any reason. Get him waterboarded quick smart, he'll sell out his ISIS masters in no time, and we can get a proper Jesus loving president in place!

[Mystic Mock]

Poor Obama his gonna get massacred for this.:joker:

I do agree with him that Christianity aren't saints either, but Islam is becoming a worldwide problem, they don't accept other peoples way of life, and to convert them some of them think it's okay to bomb people, torture people, and other violent acts, then some of the less extreme ones try to force anybody outside of the Religion to convert into being a Muslim if you want to be with the parents child.

Then of course you've got your moderate and sane Muslims, and they're the ones that can try and change this from within as they won't listen to the UK, USA, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, most of India, China, Mayanmar/Burma, Japan, and a lot of other countries, but if anyone is gonna change that nutball of a Religion it is the moderates.

[VanessaFeltz.]

Poor Obama his gonna get massacred for this.:joker:

I do agree with him that Christianity aren't saints either, but Islam is becoming a worldwide problem, they don't accept other peoples way of life, and to convert them some of them think it's okay to bomb people, torture people, and other violent acts, then some of the less extreme ones try to force anybody outside of the Religion to convert into being a Muslim if you want to be with the parents child.

Then of course you've got your moderate and sane Muslims, and they're the ones that can try and change this from within as they won't listen to the UK, USA, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, most of India, China, Mayanmar/Burma, Japan, and a lot of other countries, but if anyone is gonna change that nutball of a Religion it is the moderates.

:clap1: I am unfortunately living in a muslim country and yeah most of the muslim people here are disrespectful. However most of the muslim people in here doesnt think it is okay to bomb people or torture people, that is just what stupid isis do.

[arista]

Yes the President
is in his own world
upsetting the Americans
on CNBC , CNN America , CBS News
and FoxNewsHD

[Tom4784]

People will always use religion to justify horrific acts, Obama's right to say that Christianity is no better or different to Islam.

[MTVN]

It's fair to make the point he did, Islam is not inherently predisposed to violence and extremism more than Christianity is, and just as the crusades, the Inquisitions, the bloody infighting Christianity saw in the 16th/17th centuries are now treated as stains on Christianity's history that we have long since moved on from, so Isis will probably be looked on in years to come. This paragraph pretty much summed it up for me written after the Paris attacks:

This isn’t difficult to understand when you recognise that Islam isn’t a fixed entity whose nature is preprogrammed by its holy texts or early history. Whether you think Islam is inherently violent or benign, you can scour the Quran and the life of Muhammed and find evidence to support your view. But Islam, like any global religion with a long history, takes a thousand different forms in the many social and political contexts in which people call themselves Muslims. Nobody thinks Christians are forever doomed to carry out acts of genocide because the Old Testament is full of holy war. So why do we find it so hard to see that Muslims can be both Salafists and feminists, fundamentalists and reformists, Isis butchers and Kurdish freedom fighters?

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/charlie-hebdo-if-were-serious-about-addressing-the-threat-of-islamic-fundamentalism-there-are-some-taboos-we-need-to-do-away-with-9974645.html

[sassysocks]

People will always use religion to justify horrific acts, Obama's right to say that Christianity is no better or different to Islam.

The difference being that the horrific acts comminted by Christians were in the past. Such horrific acts commited by Islam are on-going and used as a constant threat in an attempt to create a climate of fear.

As the human race has generally become more civilised we are supposed to know better.

[InOne]

Most Religious histories are written in blood. But seen as Muslims (not all) are actively trying to take over the world at the moment, we should concentrate on the present to try fix the problem.

The crusades were very very different times.

[JoshBB]

He's just saying that christianity has done a lot of **** just like islam has

[Kizzy]

No.. the west is developed and is seen as civilised.
Obama is right to suggest that ALL denominations have blood on their hands, and for Christians that's not as far back as some think.

[Tom4784]

The difference being that the horrific acts comminted by Christians were in the past. Such horrific acts commited by Islam are on-going and used as a constant threat in an attempt to create a climate of fear.

As the human race has generally become more civilised we are supposed to know better.

It doesn't matter that it happened in the past, one day Isis will be a thing of the past but it won't make their crimes any less grave.

Also it's ignorant to say that these acts are being committed by Islam, it's not. Not every Muslim is declaring jihad. It's a small minority that are using Islam to justify their crimes. They aren't even following it properly as, if I recall, using fire to harm others is a huge no no according to the Qu'ran. These people are just using religion to take advantage of vulnerable people and their fears to line their own pockets.

It's like saying that all Christians are peadophiles because of the actions of a few priests. It's a ridiculous notion and I will never understand why people think it's okay to tar an entire religion's worth of people with the same brush.

[sassysocks]

No.. the west is developed and is seen as civilised.
Obama is right to suggest that ALL denominations have blood on their hands, and for Christians that's not as far back as some think.

Noone is saying Christianity doesn't have blood on its hands, like any other religion. We can't change the past. What counts is the now And most religious violence in the world today is connected to Islam.

Frankly I have no time for the Islam excusers as improved education and communications have forced most religions to beoome more aware of peoples' human rights. Why should Islam be any different? Many followers of Islam simply refuse to move on and consider peoples' human rights - and it is usually related to control. No excuses.

[sassysocks]

It doesn't matter that it happened in the past, one day Isis will be a thing of the past but it won't make their crimes any less grave.

Also it's ignorant to say that these acts are being committed by Islam, it's not. Not every Muslim is declaring jihad. It's a small minority that are using Islam to justify their crimes. They aren't even following it properly as, if I recall, using fire to harm others is a huge no no according to the Qu'ran. These people are just using religion to take advantage of vulnerable people and their fears to line their own pockets.

It's like saying that all Christians are peadophiles because of the actions of a few priests. It's a ridiculous notion and I will never understand why people think it's okay to tar an entire religion's worth of people with the same brush.

What happened in the past is different to what is happening now - because we can't do anything about it - only learn from it. And most religions have.

Now is what counts and many Muslims, allegedly in the name of Islam, are using it now. You certainly can't excuse it by saying that one day that will be in the past too. Ridiculous point.

A few priests hardly compares to the number of Muslims currently involved in Islamic violence and threatening world peace so attempting to make such a comparison is ridiculous.

I don't believe in tarring people with the same brush, but I still don't see enough outrage and condemnation of these acts coming from Muslims, including English Muslims, to believe the majority of Muslims are against it.

[MTVN]

Islam is a much newer religion than Christianity and its divisions are a lot more acute and a lot more violent, the Islamic world is at war with itself the same way the Christian world was a few hundred years ago. Yes we should acknowledge that this is the present but we also shouldn't treat Islam as spectacularly different from Christianity in taking the path that it is now, you can't expect the whole world to move through a linear set of stages

[Tom4784]

What happened in the past is different to what is happening now - because we can't do anything about it - only learn from it. And most religions have.

Now is what counts and many Muslims, allegedly in the name of Islam, are using it now. You certainly can't excuse it by saying that one day that will be in the past too. Ridiculous point.

A few priests hardly compares to the number of Muslims currently involved in Islamic violence and threatening world peace so attempting to make such a comparison is ridiculous.

I don't believe in tarring people with the same brush, but I still don't see enough outrage and condemnation of these acts coming from Muslims, including English Muslims, to believe the majority of Muslims are against it.

I'm not comparing the crimes, I'm comparing people's reactions to them. People are quick to separate religion from the crime if the religion in question is Christianity but if a Muslim commits a crime then you expect the whole religion to be dragged over hot coals for it.

There's plenty of Muslims out there that are condemning the actions of Isis but they'll never get representation in the media because it goes against the image of what the media wants Islam to be. Fear sells and most mainstream media outlets want Islam to be their boogeyman. Just because you don't look for it doesn't mean that all of Islam are complacent and happy enough to let Isis do what they want.

Remember, Isis have killed more Muslims than anyone else of any other creed or race. Muslims have more of a reason to oppose Isis than anyone and they do, it's just that it'll never get highlighted in the media since it won't sell as much as fear and hatred will.

[the truth]

People will always use religion to justify horrific acts, Obama's right to say that Christianity is no better or different to Islam.

It is totally different? that's a crazy claim

[the truth]

What happened in the past is different to what is happening now - because we can't do anything about it - only learn from it. And most religions have.

Now is what counts and many Muslims, allegedly in the name of Islam, are using it now. You certainly can't excuse it by saying that one day that will be in the past too. Ridiculous point.

A few priests hardly compares to the number of Muslims currently involved in Islamic violence and threatening world peace so attempting to make such a comparison is ridiculous.

I don't believe in tarring people with the same brush, but I still don't see enough outrage and condemnation of these acts coming from Muslims, including English Muslims, to believe the majority of Muslims are against it.

Obama is wrong here plain and simple....he shouldn't be apologising for these mass murdering psychopaths and he shouldn't be condemning Christians for it either...clearly hes banned from saying jews are just as much to blame as theyre protected unlike Christians....what a mess of double standards....this is about radical islam

[GiRTh]

Obama only has a year left. HE said at the state of the union he isn't gonna run for any office ever again to muttered laughter from the republicans. HE replied by pointing out that he's beat them in every race he's ever run against them . I hope all this signals him going out with a bang. It about time he slapped them around.

[Tom4784]

It is totally different? that's a crazy claim

It's really not, all religion is and has been used as justification for attrocities and Christianity is no different.

It's truly ignorant to think that one religion is better than another, it's all the same. There are extremists in every religion.

[Mystic Mock]

:clap1: I am unfortunately living in a muslim country and yeah most of the muslim people here are disrespectful. However most of the muslim people in here doesnt think it is okay to bomb people or torture people, that is just what stupid isis do.

Turkey does seem like it's the head country for moderate Muslims though, hopefully other Muslim countries will follow their lead someday.

[the truth]

It's really not, all religion is and has been used as justification for attrocities and Christianity is no different.

It's truly ignorant to think that one religion is better than another, it's all the same. There are extremists in every religion.

that's the most ignorant stupidest post Iver EVER READ on any website ever
Christianity and Islam are about as similar as heaven is to hell........totally different ends of the spectrum. you really need to read and learn for about 20 years before you even comment on it further. You live in a society built on Christian principles and laws... where youre allowed free speech to a degree where you live in relative peace with a decent standard of living where we fight for equal rights where we have healthcare for all where we believe in the principle of redemption , enlightenment , forgiveness ......islam and this perverted version of islam praches hate it has no pace for forgiveness anywhere , it has no place for redemption...people get killed for all sorts of so called crimes...you and me would already be killed for writing in this thread...and Jesus said let he who is without sin cast the first stone....every person put their stones down and the woman was set free..now go and sin no more..."


im truly embarrassed for you

[Northern Monkey]

Christianity(mostly) grew up.Islam is still living in the past.Yes Islam is a newer religion but in this day and age it should know better and grow up too.Stoning,beheading and forcing women to cover up does not gel with modern society.Even people in backwards Middle Eastern countries know this due to the technology avaliable now.Ignorance is no excuse for cruel medievil behaviour in todays world.
Not wise from Obama when a large percentage of Americans are devout Christians.

[Kizzy]

that's the most ignorant stupidest post Iver EVER READ on any website ever
Christianity and Islam are about as similar as heaven is to hell........totally different ends of the spectrum. you really need to read and learn for about 20 years before you even comment on it further. You live in a society built on Christian principles and laws... where youre allowed free speech to a degree where you live in relative peace with a decent standard of living where we fight for equal rights where we have healthcare for all where we believe in the principle of redemption , enlightenment , forgiveness ......islam and this perverted version of islam praches hate it has no pace for forgiveness anywhere , it has no place for redemption...people get killed for all sorts of so called crimes...you and me would already be killed for writing in this thread...and Jesus said let he who is without sin cast the first stone....every person put their stones down and the woman was set free..now go and sin no more..."


im truly embarrassed for you

Have you ever been to Ireland?

[Nedusa]

It's fair to make the point he did, Islam is not inherently predisposed to violence and extremism more than Christianity is, and just as the crusades, the Inquisitions, the bloody infighting Christianity saw in the 16th/17th centuries are now treated as stains on Christianity's history that we have long since moved on from, so Isis will probably be looked on in years to come. This paragraph pretty much summed it up for me written after the Paris attacks:

No sorry, don't agree.... Islam by its very nature has violence enshrined at its core. It promote murder for a wide variety of issues including homosexuality and adultery plus if you try to leave this faith one that your parents signed you up for , again the sentence is death.

These rules won't change in 50,100 or 500 years.

Islam in its very nature is not a peace loving religion by any means .





.

[MTVN]

No sorry, don't agree.... Islam by its very nature has violence enshrined at its core. It promote murder for a wide variety of issues including homosexuality and adultery plus if you try to leave this faith one that your parents signed you up for , again the sentence is death.

These rules won't change in 50,100 or 500 years.

Islam in its very nature is not a peace loving religion by any means .





.

I disagree and 500 hundred years ago it would be absolutely unthinkable that people would be free to be publicly blasphemous, utterly reject Christianity, be openly gay, be in adulterous relationships etc. I disagree with the whole concept of 'modernising' because it implies we were always consciously treading the path that took us to where we are today - we weren't. Remember that in Islam's early years it was responsible for some of the greatest scientific, economic and cultural advancements in history, the way the Islamic world is today is not how it's always been and it's now how it always will be.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Islam is just christianity more suited to the middle east and christianity is islam more suited to the west

both a patently ridiculous and just another way of humans seeking to feel important

[GiRTh]

Islam is just christianity more suited to the middle east and christianity is islam more suited to the west

both a patently ridiculous and just another way of humans seeking to feel important100% agree. I have to shake my head when anyone implies Christianity is good and Islam is evil. People have killed in the name of both religions they are as bad as each other IMO.

[Nedusa]

I disagree and 500 hundred years ago it would be absolutely unthinkable that people would be free to be publicly blasphemous, utterly reject Christianity, be openly gay, be in adulterous relationships etc. I disagree with the whole concept of 'modernising' because it implies we were always consciously treading the path that took us to where we are today - we weren't. Remember that in Islam's early years it was responsible for some of the greatest scientific, economic and cultural advancements in history, the way the Islamic world is today is not how it's always been and it's now how it always will be.

No............I don't think so, Christianity at it's core is peaceful, loving, tolerant, forgiving religion.

It may be that 500 years ago it was hijacked for political ends to steal lands and plunder vast riches from backward native peoples.

It may also have been hijacked by a small minority who warped it to suit their own evil agenda's ie the purge against "witches" and other acts of puritannical savagery.

But at it's heart the Gospels tell a story of love and forgiveness that is the whole point of Christianity it is the only way humans can live and evolve together. Gay and Lesbian acceptance together with divorce and abortion are still big issues with the Roman Catholic/Catholic Churches but you are not condemned to death as you would be as a muslim.

Islam is very much a dark, intolerant, do as I say or face the consequences type of religion, very old testament and more suited to controlling people and forcing them to comply or else.

There is no compassion just the end of a sword and this is the mainstream Saudi Arabian or Iranian versions of the faith. Even leaving the radical extremist elements out of the argument it is still a very unpleasant cult to be forced upon children who have the unfortunate luck to be born into a Muslim family.

They are effectively trapped upon pain of death should they seek to exercise free will and decide their own fate.

It is without doubt the most ghastly organised Cult masquerading as a religion and it needs to undergo serious change if it wants to change the views of myself and Billions of people like me worldwide.

It is simply unacceptable in its present form and has no place in the civilised modern world.






.

[the truth]

Have you ever been to Ireland?

yes a nation torn apart by the monarchy and a potato famine and the religion was used as a weapon to destroy them and have them warring amongst themselves...divide and conquer is the oldest trick in the monarchy play book.......forget ye not its the fat greedy king of England who burn down all the catholic churches in the first place and burned anyone who stood in his way because he wanted a to shag more women

[the truth]

Islam is just christianity more suited to the middle east and christianity is islam more suited to the west

both a patently ridiculous and just another way of humans seeking to feel important

complete and utter drivel im embarrassed for you

[the truth]

No............I don't think so, Christianity at it's core is peaceful, loving, tolerant, forgiving religion.

It may be that 500 years ago it was hijacked for political ends to steal lands and plunder vast riches from backward native peoples.

It may also have been hijacked by a small minority who warped it to suit their own evil agenda's ie the purge against "witches" and other acts of puritannical savagery.

But at it's heart the Gospels tell a story of love and forgiveness that is the whole point of Christianity it is the only way humans can live and evolve together. Gay and Lesbian acceptance together with divorce and abortion are still big issues with the Roman Catholic/Catholic Churches but you are not condemned to death as you would be as a muslim.

Islam is very much a dark, intolerant, do as I say or face the consequences type of religion, very old testament and more suited to controlling people and forcing them to comply or else.

There is no compassion just the end of a sword and this is the mainstream Saudi Arabian or Iranian versions of the faith. Even leaving the radical extremist elements out of the argument it is still a very unpleasant cult to be forced upon children who have the unfortunate luck to be born into a Muslim family.

They are effectively trapped upon pain of death should they seek to exercise free will and decide their own fate.

It is without doubt the most ghastly organised Cult masquerading as a religion and it needs to undergo serious change if it wants to change the views of myself and Billions of people like me worldwide.

It is simply unacceptable in its present form and has no place in the civilised modern world.






.

Christinaity and islam are totally opposite ends of the spectrum I agree...Judaism is also a harsh unforgiving religion

[MTVN]

No............I don't think so, Christianity at it's core is peaceful, loving, tolerant, forgiving religion.

It may be that 500 years ago it was hijacked for political ends to steal lands and plunder vast riches from backward native peoples.

It may also have been hijacked by a small minority who warped it to suit their own evil agenda's ie the purge against "witches" and other acts of puritannical savagery.

But at it's heart the Gospels tell a story of love and forgiveness that is the whole point of Christianity it is the only way humans can live and evolve together. Gay and Lesbian acceptance together with divorce and abortion are still big issues with the Roman Catholic/Catholic Churches but you are not condemned to death as you would be as a muslim.

Islam is very much a dark, intolerant, do as I say or face the consequences type of religion, very old testament and more suited to controlling people and forcing them to comply or else.

There is no compassion just the end of a sword and this is the mainstream Saudi Arabian or Iranian versions of the faith. Even leaving the radical extremist elements out of the argument it is still a very unpleasant cult to be forced upon children who have the unfortunate luck to be born into a Muslim family.

They are effectively trapped upon pain of death should they seek to exercise free will and decide their own fate.

It is without doubt the most ghastly organised Cult masquerading as a religion and it needs to undergo serious change if it wants to change the views of myself and Billions of people like me worldwide.

It is simply unacceptable in its present form and has no place in the civilised modern world.






.

Honestly I don't feel that Christianity was ever hijacked. We like to think these days that religion was just used as an excuse for bad people to do bad things - it wasn't. Their actions were directly linked to their beliefs, they were motivated just as much by genuine religious zeal as they were for any money or land. It's hard for us to appreciate today in a time where we are pretty indifferent to religion, where for most of us it doesn't impact our lives or our decisions, but it did used to. Most of those who fought Europe's wars of religion were completely confident that God was on their side, that they were justified in massacring the other side because they had forsaken true religion. I'm not talking about oppressing backwards people or targeting a few witches, the whole of Europe tore itself apart over their differing interpretations of Christianity. Sorry if that doesn't fit the happy clappy, love thy neighbour aspect of Christianity but it's true, and where they needed biblical justification for their violence they found it, and were better acquainted with the Bible and the history of Christianity than you or I.

[InOne]

I wonder how big the End Timers in America are these days.

[the truth]

Honestly I don't feel that Christianity was ever hijacked. We like to think these days that religion was just used as an excuse for bad people to do bad things - it wasn't. Their actions were directly linked to their beliefs, they were motivated just as much by genuine religious zeal as they were for any money or land. It's hard for us to appreciate today in a time where we are pretty indifferent to religion, where for most of us it doesn't impact our lives or our decisions, but it did used to. Most of those who fought Europe's wars of religion were completely confident that God was on their side, that they were justified in massacring the other side because they had forsaken true religion. I'm not talking about oppressing backwards people or targeting a few witches, the whole of Europe tore itself apart over their differing interpretations of Christianity. Sorry if that doesn't fit the happy clappy, love thy neighbour aspect of Christianity but it's true, and where they needed biblical justification for their violence they found it, and were better acquainted with the Bible and the history of Christianity than you or I.

the monarchy are greedy mass murderers and would always find justification for their lust for more power and greed...perverting Christs wonderful words are just one of the weapons they pervert, ultimately though its about greed and power for land control wealth resources knowledge...blaming the magnificent teachings of Christ for the mass murderers in the palace is as absurd as blaming you and me for the black death in 1666....these are greedy evil people. irrelevant to the words of Christ

[Kyle]

Honestly I don't feel that Christianity was ever hijacked. We like to think these days that religion was just used as an excuse for bad people to do bad things - it wasn't. Their actions were directly linked to their beliefs, they were motivated just as much by genuine religious zeal as they were for any money or land. It's hard for us to appreciate today in a time where we are pretty indifferent to religion, where for most of us it doesn't impact our lives or our decisions, but it did used to. Most of those who fought Europe's wars of religion were completely confident that God was on their side, that they were justified in massacring the other side because they had forsaken true religion. I'm not talking about oppressing backwards people or targeting a few witches, the whole of Europe tore itself apart over their differing interpretations of Christianity. Sorry if that doesn't fit the happy clappy, love thy neighbour aspect of Christianity but it's true, and where they needed biblical justification for their violence they found it, and were better acquainted with the Bible and the history of Christianity than you or I.

Christian logic

Muslims kill - well they're savages aren't they, killing is all right there in the their holy books. What do you expect?

Christians kill - not true Christians. Obviously didn't interpret the bible properly like my true sect does. Influenced by Satan or probably secularists.

[Headie]

Poor Obama his gonna get massacred for this.:joker:

I do agree with him that Christianity aren't saints either, but Islam is becoming a worldwide problem, they don't accept other peoples way of life, and to convert them some of them think it's okay to bomb people, torture people, and other violent acts, then some of the less extreme ones try to force anybody outside of the Religion to convert into being a Muslim if you want to be with the parents child.

Then of course you've got your moderate and sane Muslims, and they're the ones that can try and change this from within as they won't listen to the UK, USA, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, most of India, China, Mayanmar/Burma, Japan, and a lot of other countries, but if anyone is gonna change that nutball of a Religion it is the moderates.

There is so much wrong with this post I'm not even gonna waste my time on it

[Nedusa]

There is so much wrong with this post I'm not even gonna waste my time on it



Go on.....give it your best shot , After all no point just posting to say you are not going to post.








.

[the truth]

Christian logic

Muslims kill - well they're savages aren't they, killing is all right there in the their holy books. What do you expect?

Christians kill - not true Christians. Obviously didn't interpret the bible properly like my true sect does. Influenced by Satan or probably secularists.

utter lies and drivel........have Christians called a fatwa on every infidel who doesn't believe in Christ? Did Jesus teach that kind of hate? im ashamed for you

[the truth]

100% agree. I have to shake my head when anyone implies Christianity is good and Islam is evil. People have killed in the name of both religions they are as bad as each other IMO.

people have killed in the name of anything ...science power science war famine hunger greed wealth oil land....you don't blame the oil or the land for war just as you shouldn't blame Jesus wonderful teachings....its evil people doing evil things...if there was no religion these people would still do evil things ...they did before religion and they will after it....to blame the best religion of all Christianity is frankly insane

[Ninastar]

Kind of stupid the place and time he said it, but I guess if he's saying that all religions have had their issued, it's a fair enough comment.

However, acting like these issues going on right now with Islam right now is no big deal lols, and that it will sort itself out is just as bad as not doing anything at all.

Yes, there have been issues with other religions in the past, but right NOW the main issue is the islamic terrorists. People like to act like they aren't so much a threat, but do you not think that over the last few years, there's been a massive increase in terrorism worldwide? How many places are on red alert right now? Just because we don't see it everyday, doesn't mean that there is nothing going on right this minute.

People saying that 'all religions have had their problems!!11111' makes sense, but that's irrelevant, considering what's going on right now. Yes, most muslims are nice and won't blow you up, blah blah blah, but there is still a portion who would.

[MTVN]

Kind of stupid the place and time he said it, but I guess if he's saying that all religions have had their issued, it's a fair enough comment.

However, acting like these issues going on right now with Islam right now is no big deal lols, and that it will sort itself out is just as bad as not doing anything at all.

Yes, there have been issues with other religions in the past, but right NOW the main issue is the islamic terrorists. People like to act like they aren't so much a threat, but do you not think that over the last few years, there's been a massive increase in terrorism worldwide? How many places are on red alert right now? Just because we don't see it everyday, doesn't mean that there is nothing going on right this minute.

People saying that 'all religions have had their problems!!11111' makes sense, but that's irrelevant, considering what's going on right now. Yes, most muslims are nice and won't blow you up, blah blah blah, but there is still a portion who would.

IMO the fact that it is happening now with Islam makes the history of Christianity more relevant, it allows us to better understand Islamic extremism instead of treating it as something completely different and alien to our own past. I'm not even saying that to try and hate on Christianity or to try and defend Islam either, I just think it's all worth bearing in mind. It's not even all necessarily about the bad things that have been done in Christianity's name, it's more about the mindset of having such a strong religious zeal that it guides - and is used to justify - everything you do. I know a lot of people like to say that IS/Al Qaeda etc. aren't real Muslims, don't really care about Islam, just use it as an excuse etc. but I don't really agree with that. It might be the case for a lot of them that they are just on a power trip, but we shouldn't separate their religion from their cause any more than we should separate Christianity from the Inquisition, the wars of religion etc.

[the truth]

IMO the fact that it is happening now with Islam makes the history of Christianity more relevant, it allows us to better understand Islamic extremism instead of treating it as something completely different and alien to our own past. I'm not even saying that to try and hate on Christianity or to try and defend Islam either, I just think it's all worth bearing in mind. It's not even all necessarily about the bad things that have been done in Christianity's name, it's more about the mindset of having such a strong religious zeal that it guides - and is used to justify - everything you do. I know a lot of people like to say that IS/Al Qaeda etc. aren't real Muslims, don't really care about Islam, just use it as an excuse etc. but I don't really agree with that. It might be the case for a lot of them that they are just on a power trip, but we shouldn't separate their religion from their cause any more than we should separate Christianity from the Inquisition, the wars of religion etc.

this is all done in the name of islam. its a massive problem now worldwide...obamas intentions are generally good , hes trying to take the sting out of it all but but his speech and timing was awful here....he might as well talk about the queen of England being responsible for the endless wars...its ancient history. this radical islam is here and now and its worldwide

[the truth]

Kind of stupid the place and time he said it, but I guess if he's saying that all religions have had their issued, it's a fair enough comment.

However, acting like these issues going on right now with Islam right now is no big deal lols, and that it will sort itself out is just as bad as not doing anything at all.

Yes, there have been issues with other religions in the past, but right NOW the main issue is the islamic terrorists. People like to act like they aren't so much a threat, but do you not think that over the last few years, there's been a massive increase in terrorism worldwide? How many places are on red alert right now? Just because we don't see it everyday, doesn't mean that there is nothing going on right this minute.

People saying that 'all religions have had their problems!!11111' makes sense, but that's irrelevant, considering what's going on right now. Yes, most muslims are nice and won't blow you up, blah blah blah, but there is still a portion who would.

spot on , glad you saw past the apologists

[VanessaFeltz.]

Turkey does seem like it's the head country for moderate Muslims though, hopefully other Muslim countries will follow their lead someday.

Turkey can do amazing things to lead other muslim countries however Turkey has lots of problems inside because of this goverment. Between 1. world and 2. world war turkey proved they could do amazing things and i hope it will fix itself and do good things again.

[user104658]

Kind of stupid the place and time he said it, but I guess if he's saying that all religions have had their issued, it's a fair enough comment.

However, acting like these issues going on right now with Islam right now is no big deal lols, and that it will sort itself out is just as bad as not doing anything at all.

Yes, there have been issues with other religions in the past, but right NOW the main issue is the islamic terrorists. People like to act like they aren't so much a threat, but do you not think that over the last few years, there's been a massive increase in terrorism worldwide? How many places are on red alert right now? Just because we don't see it everyday, doesn't mean that there is nothing going on right this minute.

People saying that 'all religions have had their problems!!11111' makes sense, but that's irrelevant, considering what's going on right now. Yes, most muslims are nice and won't blow you up, blah blah blah, but there is still a portion who would.
That's only the case if you're saying "Christians and Muslims are the same in many ways" as a way of lessening the blame on Islam / making it seem like it's OK because "one day they'll be fine". That's not my stance at all though. Rather, I think that religion itself is to blame. I lump all of them together and am perfectly comfortable doing so... And pointing out how similar other religions have been in the past is more of a justification for this action of combining, and condemning, all religion.

Do you really, honestly think that it's impossible that Christianity will ever cycle back around to violent action? What if rather than having moved past it, Christianity is simply not in a "violent phase" right now? It might well be again in a few hundred years after the inevitable downfall of Western capitalism. Christian terrorist organisations are by no means outside of the realms of realistic possibility. There are a few, albeit small, examples of such in the world already. In recent history there have been obvious examples :what were the KKK, if not white Christian terrorists?

To state that all of Christianity has now moved beyond that, and will never go back there, is nonsense.

Why is it nonsense? Because people with irrational beliefs are prone to doing irrational things. Anyone who can take a step back from religious belief and take a good look at it can appreciate that every last one of them is a "loopy cult", and that the malleable nature of religious dogma means that anyone devoutly religious - in any religion - is inherently unpredictable and dangerous.

6 million (!!!) people turned up in a park to see the Pope recently. A huge percentage of those will have been very passionate Christians. Are we expected to believe that, if the Vatican and the Pope were to suddenly demand that they take up arms against (whoever), huge numbers of those people wouldn't willingly, even happily, do so in the name of their religion (Christianity)? Of course they would. Many of those people would blindly follow the Pope into whatever jihad he could dream up. Just as dangerous as any Muslim following any mad cleric.

He hasn't done so but it's just an example of how any religion can be used for violent means. IF he wanted to, IF he suddenly snapped or IF other political forces somehow took covert control of the Vatican, that one man could turn millions of those "peaceful christians" into remorseless killers over night. I guarantee it.

[sassysocks]

That's only the case if you're saying "Christians and Muslims are the same in many ways" as a way of lessening the blame on Islam / making it seem like it's OK because "one day they'll be fine". That's not my stance at all though. Rather, I think that religion itself is to blame. I lump all of them together and am perfectly comfortable doing so... And pointing out how similar other religions have been in the past is more of a justification for this action of combining, and condemning, all religion.

Do you really, honestly think that it's impossible that Christianity will ever cycle back around to violent action? What if rather than having moved past it, Christianity is simply not in a "violent phase" right now? It might well be again in a few hundred years after the inevitable downfall of Western capitalism. Christian terrorist organisations are by no means outside of the realms of realistic possibility. There are a few, albeit small, examples of such in the world already. In recent history there have been obvious examples :what were the KKK, if not white Christian terrorists?

To state that all of Christianity has now moved beyond that, and will never go back there, is nonsense.

Why is it nonsense? Because people with irrational beliefs are prone to doing irrational things. Anyone who can take a step back from religious belief and take a good look at it can appreciate that every last one of them is a "loopy cult", and that the malleable nature of religious dogma means that anyone devoutly religious - in any religion - is inherently unpredictable and dangerous.

6 million (!!!) people turned up in a park to see the Pope recently. A huge percentage of those will have been very passionate Christians. Are we expected to believe that, if the Vatican and the Pope were to suddenly demand that they take up arms against (whoever), huge numbers of those people wouldn't willingly, even happily, do so in the name of their religion (Christianity)? Of course they would. Many of those people would blindly follow the Pope into whatever jihad he could dream up. Just as dangerous as any Muslim following any mad cleric.

He hasn't done so but it's just an example of how any religion can be used for violent means. IF he wanted to, IF he suddenly snapped or IF other political forces somehow took covert control of the Vatican, that one man could turn millions of those "peaceful christians" into remorseless killers over night. I guarantee it.

Pure conjecture full of what, ifs and buts. Islam is a problem now which is what we need to focus on, not what others might do one day.

[DemolitionRed]

I wish we had a like button on here. I would be clicking on it for both MTVN & Dezzy.

[Kyle]

utter lies and drivel........have Christians called a fatwa on every infidel who doesn't believe in Christ? Did Jesus teach that kind of hate? im ashamed for you

Coming from a religion that has as chequered a past as Christianity does I'm rather surprised you have the cheek to point the finger at another, regardless of how hard it tries to rack up a higher kill count than yours did.

[Livia]

I wish we had a like button on here. I would be clicking on it for both MTVN & Dezzy.

Same.

[user104658]

Pure conjecture full of what, ifs and buts. Islam is a problem now which is what we need to focus on, not what others might do one day.

I realise this but I was only illustrating a point. I am not saying that the issue doesn't need to be tackled here and now. Religion is a problem that would be much more easily focussed on by realising what it is and appropriately lumping it into one category to be tackled instead of endlessly splitting hairs over which ones are "good", and which ones are "bad", and which branches of each are better than the others, and which are the best churches within those branches, and :sleep:... only for the same issues to arise again in a few generations under a different banner. If EVERYONE would just stop arguing over whose unicorns are the fastest, we'd be more than half way there.

The only really important part of my previous post is this:

"People with irrational beliefs are prone to doing irrational things."

Islam / Christianity / whatever :shrug:.

[Livia]

I ..."People with irrational beliefs are prone to doing irrational things."

Islam / Christianity / whatever :shrug:.

People with no religious beliefs are also prone to do irrational things, so...

[user104658]

People with no religious beliefs are also prone to do irrational things, so...

Not all irrational belief systems are religious. Does it then follow that religious belief systems are not irrational? I don't think so, personally.

I certainly don't think that religion is the root of all of the world's problems or that there would never again be any senseless massacre without religion... but I think it would certainly be a start.

[the truth]

Coming from a religion that has as chequered a past as Christianity does I'm rather surprised you have the cheek to point the finger at another, regardless of how hard it tries to rack up a higher kill count than yours did.


I think youre mistaking Christians for the monarchy

[the truth]

Not all irrational belief systems are religious. Does it then follow that religious belief systems are not irrational? I don't think so, personally.

I certainly don't think that religion is the root of all of the world's problems or that there would never again be any senseless massacre without religion... but I think it would certainly be a start.

start of what? are you planning to destroy all of the tens of thousands of Christian based laws than are the bedrock of western civilization too? what exactly was it that Christ said that you hate so much?

[the truth]

IS this a serious post? I see who its coming from and its contents so cant take it seriously.

is that a serious reply? wow how fickle

[user104658]

start of what? are you planning to destroy all of the tens of thousands of Christian based laws than are the bedrock of western civilization too? what exactly was it that Christ said that you hate so much?
Me personally? No. I would say that just because a lot of law is based on a Christian background, is no reason to continue with the religion. A lot of moral philosophy, including many Christian tales and values, have roots in older mythology such as the Greek and Roman Gods. Do we have to continue to worship those, too?

He hasn't said anything that I particularly "hate", it's just that... None of the supernatural stuff in the Bible is actually true, Jesus wasn't the son of (or a human avatar of) a supreme being (God) because it's highly unlikely that such a being even exists. For a third time: strong, irrational belief can be warped and twisted to nefarious purpose. The specifics of the belief do not matter. The problem is the mindset that is able to believe it, and the level of control that can be taken by figures who wish to exploit it.

[Livia]

Not all irrational belief systems are religious. Does it then follow that religious belief systems are not irrational? I don't think so, personally.

I certainly don't think that religion is the root of all of the world's problems or that there would never again be any senseless massacre without religion... but I think it would certainly be a start.


Some people are good, some people are bad. That's the bottom line. Most people are not extremists, most people don't want to kill other people because they don't share their beliefs. It's an infinitesimally small percentage, just like it's an infinitesimally small percentage of non-religious people who are violent psychopaths. For every act of violence carried out by religious people, there will be at least one and probably many more acts of kindness and compassion. So I don't agree that by having no religion the world would be a better place. All you'd be doing is taking away people's legitimate right to worship in their own way because you yourself have no faith.

[user104658]

Some people are good, some people are bad. That's the bottom line. Most people are not extremists, most people don't want to kill other people because they don't share their beliefs. It's an infinitesimally small percentage, just like it's an infinitesimally small percentage of non-religious people who are violent psychopaths. For every act of violence carried out by religious people, there will be at least one and probably many more acts of kindness and compassion. So I don't agree that by having no religion the world would be a better place. All you'd be doing is taking away people's legitimate right to worship in their own way because you yourself have no faith.
I have said quite a few times that I wouldn't see anyone forcibly stopped from believing whatever they want to believe. You can't "force" people not to believe in something, anyway. I just keep hoping that one day everyone will wake up and say, "Why did we ever believe in something like that?? lol..."

I doubt that will actually happen. I think religion MIGHT eventually fade into relative obscurity... But it will sadly be a long after we're gone. So I won't even get to say "toljerso" :(

[Livia]

I have said quite a few times that I wouldn't see anyone forcibly stopped from believing whatever they want to believe. You can't "force" people not to believe in something, anyway. I just keep hoping that one day everyone will wake up and say, "Why did we ever believe in something like that?? lol..."

I doubt that will actually happen. I think religion MIGHT eventually fade into relative obscurity... But it will sadly be a long after we're gone. So I won't even get to say "toljerso" :(

I keep hoping that one day people with no faith accept that because they don't understand something doesn't mean it's foolish or bad. I don't think religion will die out, my own faith has been around for five thousand years through some pretty turbulent times to say the least. I think people will finally wake up and get to a point where they accept each other and keep their trunk out of other people's beliefs.

[user104658]

I keep hoping that one day people with no faith accept that because they don't understand something doesn't mean it's foolish or bad. I don't think religion will die out, my own faith has been around for five thousand years through some pretty turbulent times to say the least. I think people will finally wake up and get to a point where they accept each other and keep their trunk out of other people's beliefs.
I can't see that happening until people start keeping their beliefs out of other people's trunks. Including drumming it into their own children. In which case it will die out, because that's what's keeping it going.

[Livia]

I can't see that happening until people start keeping their beliefs out of other people's trunks. Including drumming it into their own children. In which case it will die out, because that's what's keeping it going.

You seem to tar all religions with the same brush. My religion doesn't recruit. I was never forced to do anything as a child instead I chose to got to school on Sundays to learn about my own religion and to study Hebrew. I am not alone. It seems hard for you to accept that people with religious beliefs aren't brainwashed just because you yourself don't understand it. I uphold your right to believe nothing and not be criticised. That surely should be a two-way street.

[user104658]

You seem to tar all religions with the same brush. My religion doesn't recruit. I was never forced to do anything as a child instead I chose to got to school on Sundays to learn about my own religion and to study Hebrew. I am not alone. It seems hard for you to accept that people with religious beliefs aren't brainwashed just because you yourself don't understand it. I uphold your right to believe nothing and not be criticised. That surely should be a two-way street.
To me, though, it says a lot that you considered it "your own religion" before learning about it. It was still your cultural identity. Do you think you would have gone to Sunday school to learn about Judaism and learn Hebrew if your parents had been Christians? Or Hindu? Or non-religious? Maybe you would, I don't know.

Either way, you seem to be suggesting that your experiences are uniform for your entire religion, which is demonstrably not true. There is plenty of fundamentalism and enforced religious practice within the Jewish faith, and in all faiths, just as I'm sure there are people with experiences similar to yours in all faiths. So... Yes, I am comfortable considering all religions under one heading for most purposes. The specifics of the belief system are largely irrelevant, and can mainly be summed up as "miscellaneous supernatural stuff".

[kirklancaster]

"Come-on now Lt, you're on TiBB. Didn't you know that in the Big Book of Alternate Tibby Histories, the crusades and the Spanish inquisition didn't happen? They are just made up tales designed to discredit Jesus. Probably invented by Muslims. Obama is probably a covert Muslim. Why else would he ever say anything about Christianity that isn't entirely positive? I literally can't think of any reason. Get him waterboarded quick smart, he'll sell out his ISIS masters in no time, and we can get a proper Jesus loving president in place!"

Nowhere on this forum has any member ever claimed that “the crusades and the Spanish inquisition didn't happen”, and neither has anyone on here claimed that such historical events are;”just made up tales designed to discredit Jesus”, or claimed that the above were “Probably invented by Muslims”? Consequentially, therefore, TIBB members are not so poorly informed and ‘low-brow’ to believe in any fictitious “Big Book of Alternate Tibby Histories” and any statement which maintains otherwise is plainly ludicrous – yet, any non-TIBB member who is surfing the internet and encounters the above post and its totally non factual comments without further examination of this excellent forum, will be forgiven for believing that the general intellectual standard of its members is woefully low, when the polar opposite is true.

This is supposed to be a SERIOUS DEBATE thread where adult members maturely debate and discuss serious topics with truth, integrity and informed opinion. Politics, terrorism, and religion, are all very serious subjects which are currently creating increasingly widening schisms throughout the world, and spurious statements such as those above, unnecessarily cause offence and really have no place on a Serious Discussion thread – in my opinion.

If we are to debate this very serious issue, then it is imperative that we do not start from deliberately false premises and do not continue with confused misconceptions - as is clearly the case in the above post.

As for Barak Hussein Obama; the evidence that he is a Muslim in thought, word and deed, is preponderous, overwhelming, and irrefutable to any rational, impartial, and sane researcher.

[the truth]

I can't see that happening until people start keeping their beliefs out of other people's trunks. Including drumming it into their own children. In which case it will die out, because that's what's keeping it going.

atheists are far louder about screaming their beliefs in public places and in drumming it into their kids.........often the atheists we hear are aggressive and mocking. it makes one think if they had their way and destroyed Christs words would their words really lead us to a better place?

[the truth]

To me, though, it says a lot that you considered it "your own religion" before learning about it. It was still your cultural identity. Do you think you would have gone to Sunday school to learn about Judaism and learn Hebrew if your parents had been Christians? Or Hindu? Or non-religious? Maybe you would, I don't know.

Either way, you seem to be suggesting that your experiences are uniform for your entire religion, which is demonstrably not true. There is plenty of fundamentalism and enforced religious practice within the Jewish faith, and in all faiths, just as I'm sure there are people with experiences similar to yours in all faiths. So... Yes, I am comfortable considering all religions under one heading for most purposes. The specifics of the belief system are largely irrelevant, and can mainly be summed up as "miscellaneous supernatural stuff".

the specifics are all that's relevant your post is anti logic exactly what you accuse all religions of

[Kizzy]

People with no religious beliefs are also prone to do irrational things, so...

Where in the bible does it say that?...

[Livia]

To me, though, it says a lot that you considered it "your own religion" before learning about it. It was still your cultural identity. Do you think you would have gone to Sunday school to learn about Judaism and learn Hebrew if your parents had been Christians? Or Hindu? Or non-religious? Maybe you would, I don't know.

Either way, you seem to be suggesting that your experiences are uniform for your entire religion, which is demonstrably not true. There is plenty of fundamentalism and enforced religious practice within the Jewish faith, and in all faiths, just as I'm sure there are people with experiences similar to yours in all faiths. So... Yes, I am comfortable considering all religions under one heading for most purposes. The specifics of the belief system are largely irrelevant, and can mainly be summed up as "miscellaneous supernatural stuff".

The highlighted bit is a bit of a wild, sweeping generalisation from someone who has no faith and doesn't understand what it means to have faith, so I understand that lumping all faiths together would make perfect sense to you.

Would I have gone to school to learn about Judaism if my parents weren't Jewish...? I take it your own parents weren't exactly church goers and that's where you've picked up your blinkered ideas about faith. For the record, I am culturally and ethnically Jewish.

[Livia]

Where in the bible does it say that?...

Just under where it says "People with irrational beliefs are prone to doing irrational things."

[user104658]

The highlighted bit is a bit of a wild, sweeping generalisation from someone who has no faith and doesn't understand what it means to have faith, so I understand that lumping all faiths together would make perfect sense to you.

Would I have gone to school to learn about Judaism if my parents weren't Jewish...? I take it your own parents weren't exactly church goers and that's where you've picked up your blinkered ideas about faith. For the record, I am culturally and ethnically Jewish.
You're right, I have no faith. I think I do understand what it means to have faith TO people who have faith... But perhaps it would be prudent to point out that to someone who doesn't have faith it means literally nothing?

Anyway, the second part is incorrect. My mum went to church regularly and my grandmother was a card-carrying God squadder. She was actual friends with the minister and he was constantly at her house - I'd have worried about them if I wasn't 99% certain that the minister was gay (not joking, very VERY camp man).

I also went to church and Sunday School until I was 7 or 8. In fact, if I remember correctly, I realised that God isn't real whilst actually sat at a table at Sunday school. I was doing some sort of maze involving Jesus. It was obscure.

[Livia]

You're right, I have no faith. I think I do understand what it means to have faith TO people who have faith... But perhaps it would be prudent to point out that to someone who doesn't have faith it means literally nothing?

Anyway, the second part is incorrect. My mum went to church regularly and my grandmother was a card-carrying God squadder. She was actual friends with the minister and he was constantly at her house - I'd have worried about them if I wasn't 99% certain that the minister was gay (not joking, very VERY camp man).

I also went to church and Sunday School until I was 7 or 8. In fact, if I remember correctly, I realised that God isn't real whilst actually sat at a table at Sunday school. I was doing some sort of maze involving Jesus. It was obscure.

You didn't "realise" that God wasn't real. You came to that conclusion because you'd had a chance to find out about it for yourself. And that's fine... I don't agree with you, but I'm not going to assume there's something wrong with you because you don't believe.

It would be a fine thing if non-believers afforded people with faith the same courtesy.

[user104658]

You didn't "realise" that God wasn't real. You came to that conclusion because you'd had a chance to find out about it for yourself. And that's fine... I don't agree with you, but I'm not going to assume there's something wrong with you because you don't believe.

It would be a fine thing if non-believers afforded people with faith the same courtesy.
I don't think there's something wrong with people because they believe. People believe whatever they believe for various reasons, by definition a belief isn't a choice.

I think there's something inherently wrong with religion itself.

[kirklancaster]

"People will always use religion to justify horrific acts, Obama's right to say that Christianity is no better or different to Islam."

First of all, Barack Hussein Obama being a Muslim would state that, but it is thinly disguised pro-Islamic propaganda and anti-Christian nonsense, because Christianity most definitely is a totally different religion to Islam.

What's more, Hussein Obama makes the same colossal error which you and others on this thread make, in being confused by just what Christianity is.

Christianity is a religion specifically based upon the life and teachings of Jesus Christ as attested in The New Testament, and Jesus Christ was a pacifist who taught Love, Understanding, Tolerance, Charity and advocated peace and forgiveness.

True Christians are those who put faith and trust in the New Testament and who believe in Jesus as ‘The Christ’ or Messiah, and who follow Christ’s teachings. Therefore true Christians who truly follow the teachings of Christ are also peace loving.

NOWHERE in the New Testament is there any incitement for followers to go out and maim, kill, or subjugate other races, creeds or non-believers and I defy anyone on here to provide evidence to the contrary.

Even the violence within the Old Testament is solely bound by historical context and specific only to the era in which the text was written, as distinct from the open-ended commands throughout the Quran which compel faithful Muslims to to go out and maim, kill, or subjugate other races, creeds or non-believers. These commands are not era specific, and have no predetermined time limit, so are as relevant and applicable for faithful Muslims today as they were to faithful Muslims in Muhammad's time. Which explains the demonic atrocities still being perpetrated in Allah's name after 1500 years.

The above is only one difference between Islam and Christianity, but there are other very real differences, far too numerous to expound upon here.

As for "better than" - whether we are specifically comparing the religions themselves, or their followers interpretation of The New Testament with the Quran, there really is no comparison, because the former is a religion based upon love, peace and tolerance, and the latter is one where 109 of its verses incite beheadings and dismemberment or other violence.

I feel this may be the reason why we do not see faithful Christians holding one freshly-severed innocent's head after another, or witness them coolly moving through school classrooms executing innocent children, setting terrified teachers ablaze, or chanting "Jesus" while they shoot yet more innocent victims in cold blood.

[Ninastar]

Nice to see you posting, Kirk. I agree with a lot of what you're saying. As always.

[MTVN]

As for Barak Hussein Obama; the evidence that he is a Muslim in thought, word and deed, is preponderous, overwhelming, and irrefutable to any rational, impartial, and sane researcher.

What evidence would that be, besides his middle name which is apparently so necessary to include?

[sassysocks]

Thank you Caitlin. I had so many nice pleas from members asking me to reconsider, and I just thought to myself why should I let anyone hound me off here? Then, reading so many (untrue) anti-Christian hate posts just decided me to return.

I'm glad Livia's back too.

Take care. xxx :wavey:

No surprise people wanted you back. Your previous post was excellent and very well expressed. Welcome back.

[kirklancaster]

I don't hate any single religion, I hate the idea of organised religion and (like I've said numerous times...) it's dumb to highlight one religion as being more 'evil' or primative or controlling when all religions are equally primitive and controlling. Again, thinking that one religion is inherently better than another is foolish. They all preach hatred, they all have the same basic premise and methods of control. You are biased and ignorant if you think that Christianity is somehow better than the rest. HAVE YOU EVEN READ THE OLD TESTAMENT? 'Biblical' isn't a term for 'some horrific bat**** crazy **** is going to go down' by chance....


Your post shows an incredible naivety and ignorance of the subject under discussion.

Christianity is of the New Testament - not the Old Testament.

Islam is both primitive and controlling, The Judeo Christian Bible is primitive but not controlling in the slightest.

The Quran preaches open-ended hatred and violence, The Judeo Christian Bible preaches neither.

Islamic Fundamentalist Imams, Muftis and Ayatollahs preach violence and hatred, Rabbis and Priests and Vicars do not.

Please show me any evidence which substantiates the claims in your post.

[kirklancaster]

No surprise people wanted you back. Your previous post was excellent and very well expressed. Welcome back.

Thank you Sassysocks.

[Nedusa]

First of all, Barack Hussein Obama being a Muslim would state that, but it is thinly disguised pro-Islamic propaganda and anti-Christian nonsense, because Christianity most definitely is a totally different religion to Islam.

What's more, Hussein Obama makes the same colossal error which you and others on this thread make, in being confused by just what Christianity is.

Christianity is a religion specifically based upon the life and teachings of Jesus Christ as attested in The New Testament, and Jesus Christ was a pacifist who taught Love, Understanding, Tolerance, Charity and advocated peace and forgiveness.

True Christians are those who put faith and trust in the New Testament and who believe in Jesus as ‘The Christ’ or Messiah, and who follow Christ’s teachings. Therefore true Christians who truly follow the teachings of Christ are also peace loving.

NOWHERE in the New Testament is there any incitement for followers to go out and maim, kill, or subjugate other races, creeds or non-believers and I defy anyone on here to provide evidence to the contrary.

Even the violence within the Old Testament is solely bound by historical context and specific only to the era in which the text was written, as distinct from the open-ended commands throughout the Quran which compel faithful Muslims to to go out and maim, kill, or subjugate other races, creeds or non-believers. These commands are not era specific, and have no predetermined time limit, so are as relevant and applicable for faithful Muslims today as they were to faithful Muslims in Muhammad's time. Which explains the demonic atrocities still being perpetrated in Allah's name after 1500 years.

The above is only one difference between Islam and Christianity, but there are other very real differences, far too numerous to expound upon here.

As for "better than" - whether we are specifically comparing the religions themselves, or their followers interpretation of The New Testament with the Quran, there really is no comparison, because the former is a religion based upon love, peace and tolerance, and the latter is one where 109 of its verses incite beheadings and dismemberment or other violence.

I feel this may be the reason why we do not see faithful Christians holding one freshly-severed innocent's head after another, or witness them coolly moving through school classrooms executing innocent children, setting terrified teachers ablaze, or chanting "Jesus" while they shoot yet more innocent victims in cold blood.

Thanks for posting this Kirk, I read many posts on here arguing that Islam is actually really peaceful and that its misunderstood or that Christianity is or was equally bad and Islam will change and that the religions are similar.

Utter nonsense as you have so eloquently detailed they are fundamentally different, one is a moral code to live by and a blueprint for moving the human race forward to better times. A framework of rules to live by where peace,love and tolerance are cornerstones, beacons shing the way forward.

The other is a dark backward rigid religious cult which worships and sanctifies death,pain,torture and suffering. A set of rules which basically is mind control where obedience and compliance are mandatory and all individuality and creativity are frowned upon.

More a set of rules not to live by but rather to try and not break or ones life will be very short.

So different from Christianity it beggars belief people on here cannot see these glaring differences.

Look forward to the day Islam is seen for what it is and is consigned to the scrapheap of history.




.

[Tom4784]

Whether you support organised religion or not is hardly the issue. You were being challenged on your comparisons between present day Islamic religious doctrine still practicing opression and violence to historical Christian doctrine in an era when people knew no different. Today people do, even in Asia.

Maybe your comprehension skills are not as developed as you think they are and maybe you need to get over yourself.

It's less to do with Islam and more to do with Dictators using it to enforce their reign. The same thing could happen to any religion, you could get a Jewish, Christian, Hindu ETC group that gains some power and enforces it through the darkest parts of their religious text. You could take religion out of the Middle east and the same problems would still exist because it's less about religion and more about power and the means those who have it use to keep it.

[kirklancaster]

Thanks for posting this Kirk, I read many posts on here arguing that Islam is actually really peaceful and that its misunderstood or that Christianity is or was equally bad and Islam will change and that the religions are similar.

Utter nonsense as you have so eloquently detailed they are fundamentally different, one is a moral code to live by and a blueprint for moving the human race forward to better times. A framework of rules to live by where peace,love and tolerance are cornerstones, beacons shing the way forward.

The other is a dark backward rigid religious cult which worships and sanctifies death,pain,torture and suffering. A set of rules which basically is mind control where obedience and compliance are mandatory and all individuality and creativity are frowned upon.

More a set of rules not to live by but rather to try and not break or ones life will be very short.

So different from Christianity it beggars belief people on here cannot see these glaring differences.

Look forward to the day Islam is seen for what it is and is consigned to the scrapheap of history.

.

I am grateful for your comments Nedusa - It is members such as you who are the reason why I returned to this forum.

Thank you.

[user104658]

Islamic Fundamentalist Imams, Muftis and Ayatollahs preach violence and hatred, Rabbis and Priests and Vicars do not.

Oh come on now kirk - this is seriously disingenuous, even from someone with a personal bias on the subject. A bias I'm sure you'll deny you have... But you do have... Christianity is the achilles heel in your reasoned logic, you are incapable of impartiality on the subject of religion.

But, yes, anyway - you point out that "Fundamentalist Imams" preach hatred whereas "Rabbis and Priests" do not. This is an obviously unfair comparison. Non-fundamentalist Imams do not preach hate, and there are Fundamentalist Priests, preachers and certainly Rabbis who absolutely and unquestionably DO preach hatred and violence. There are several well documented Fundamentalist Jewish Rabbis in Israel whose entire motivation is to convert young Jews into armed thugs. There are several hate-preaching Christian churches that plague every American state. You can't possibly deny this, you can't possibly state with such certainty that "Rabbis, Priests and Vicars do not preach hatred or violence". It's not just incorrect, it's a bare-faced lie.

I won't even deny that there are probably a greater number of Fundamentalist Islamic preachers than either of the others or that it's a more widespread issue, but what you are doing is implying that "most" Islamic preachers are hateful and - unfathomably - that there are ZERO Jewish or Christian preachers preaching anything negative.

[the truth]

Oh come on now kirk - this is seriously disingenuous, even from someone with a personal bias on the subject. A bias I'm sure you'll deny you have... But you do have... Christianity is the achilles heel in your reasoned logic, you are incapable of impartiality on the subject of religion.

But, yes, anyway - you point out that "Fundamentalist Imams" preach hatred whereas "Rabbis and Priests" do not. This is an obviously unfair comparison. Non-fundamentalist Imams do not preach hate, and there are Fundamentalist Priests, preachers and certainly Rabbis who absolutely and unquestionably DO preach hatred and violence. There are several well documented Fundamentalist Jewish Rabbis in Israel whose entire motivation is to convert young Jews into armed thugs. There are several hate-preaching Christian churches that plague every American state. You can't possibly deny this, you can't possibly state with such certainty that "Rabbis, Priests and Vicars do not preach hatred or violence". It's not just incorrect, it's a bare-faced lie.

Christian preachers do not preach this poison........Islam seems to be infiltrated with this radical twisted disease whereas rabbis im not so sure I don't follow Judaism as closely.....Christian churches are on the whole places of magnificent preachers and fantastic people doing good work ....when you take into account the billion plus Christians the amount of good work they do across the globe is astounding.....in charity work in caring in missionary work and voluntary is remarkable.........its just a shame other religions cannot be as forgiving and charitable as Christians but that will never be the case as there was only one Christ who was a magnificent example to all humanity

[Kizzy]

Sorry Dezzy, but I do read every post on every thread which I subscribe to, in the same way that I read and research, and cross check and cross reference, any subject on which I am interested in before I form an opinion, and therefore, when I do post an opinion it as near a 'qualified' opinion as possible.

Islam and Christianity are subjects of which I already have a considerable knowledge of - being both a Christian, and also interested in all religions since I was young - and my posts have nothing to do with being "self righteous" and being "self obsessed" or thinking that "everyone should kneel before" my "truth", but are to do with not allowing groundless attacks on Christianity to go unchallenged - especially when such attacks are cloaked in pseudo fact and ludicrous misconceptions.

I am also not dim, and able to perceive irrational anti-Christianity attacks no matter how expertly disguised among phrases such as "all religions", in the same manner that I cannot help but conclude from the preponderance of evidence, that whilst certain members on here continually attack Christianity, their lack of real condemnation or even criticism of Islam and Islamic terrorists is glaring.

It seems clear to me, that it is the Modus Operandi of certain members on here to post ill thought out, sweeping and presumptuous fallacies, then when rebutted by legitimate and reasoned counter responses, they resort to 4 reactions against those validly countering:

A) Insult
B) Ridicule
B) Ignore
C) Make false complaint to a Moderator.

The above is neither discussion, nor debate.

If you can't take on board that some don't differentiate between religions that's not anyone elses fault but your own.

It's also rather insulting to have the insinuation that if you are anti religion you must by default be pro terrorist! It's ridiculous and as I'm suspecting on of the 'certain members' I feel it's important to highlight when you are making these shameful remarks.

Nobody has to justify why they don't align themselves with Christianity, it doesn't make them any less than yourself or anyone else who blindly follows.

[user104658]

Christian preachers do not preach this poison........Islam seems to be infiltrated with this radical twisted disease whereas rabbis im not so sure I don't follow Judaism as closely.....Christian churches are on the whole places of magnificent preachers and fantastic people doing good work ....when you take into account the billion plus Christians the amount of good work they do across the globe is astounding.....in charity work in caring in missionary work and voluntary is remarkable.........its just a shame other religions cannot be as forgiving and charitable as Christians but that will never be the case as there was only one Christ who was a magnificent example to all humanity
Again - there are NO Christian churches preaching anything hateful? Not one? Utterly ridiculous :facepalm:

[Kizzy]

http://www.addictinginfo.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/wbc-protest-islam.jpg

[the truth]

Again - there are NO Christian churches preaching anything hateful? Not one? Utterly ridiculous :facepalm:

None ive ever heard of or been to .......frankly ive heard more hate from you in this thread than I have in a lifetime of visiting the Christian churches where ive never ever heard 1 bigoted word in my life

[Tom4784]

If you can't take on board that some don't differentiate between religions that's not anyone elses fault but your own.

It's also rather insulting to have the insinuation that if you are anti religion you must by default be pro terrorist! It's ridiculous and as I'm suspecting on of the 'certain members' I feel it's important to highlight when you are making these shameful remarks.

Nobody has to justify why they don't align themselves with Christianity, it doesn't make them any less than yourself or anyone else who blindly follows.

Well Kizzy, it's finally happened. We've agreed on something :laugh:

[kirklancaster]

Oh come on now kirk - this is seriously disingenuous, even from someone with a personal bias on the subject. A bias I'm sure you'll deny you have... But you do have... Christianity is the achilles heel in your reasoned logic, you are incapable of impartiality on the subject of religion.

But, yes, anyway - you point out that "Fundamentalist Imams" preach hatred whereas "Rabbis and Priests" do not. This is an obviously unfair comparison. Non-fundamentalist Imams do not preach hate, and there are Fundamentalist Priests, preachers and certainly Rabbis who absolutely and unquestionably DO preach hatred and violence. There are several well documented Fundamentalist Jewish Rabbis in Israel whose entire motivation is to convert young Jews into armed thugs. There are several hate-preaching Christian churches that plague every American state. You can't possibly deny this, you can't possibly state with such certainty that "Rabbis, Priests and Vicars do not preach hatred or violence". It's not just incorrect, it's a bare-faced lie.

I won't even deny that there are probably a greater number of Fundamentalist Islamic preachers than either of the others or that it's a more widespread issue, but what you are doing is implying that "most" Islamic preachers are hateful and - unfathomably - that there are ZERO Jewish or Christian preachers preaching anything negative.

In answer to your ridiculous and presumptuous claims which I have emboldened, I am not implying anything of the sort. Do not 'twist' my statements which are in print for all to see. If I had meant that "most" Islamic preachers are hateful I would have stated as much, and if I had meant that there are ZERO Jewish or Christian preachers preaching anything negative, I would have stated as much.

As for your other claims, I welcome you expounding upon them with suitable corroborating evidence.

[Kizzy]

Well Kizzy, it's finally happened. We've agreed on something :laugh:

Hallelujah! :hehe:

[kirklancaster]

If you can't take on board that some don't differentiate between religions that's not anyone elses fault but your own.

It's also rather insulting to have the insinuation that if you are anti religion you must by default be pro terrorist! It's ridiculous and as I'm suspecting on of the 'certain members' I feel it's important to highlight when you are making these shameful remarks.

Nobody has to justify why they don't align themselves with Christianity, it doesn't make them any less than yourself or anyone else who blindly follows.

"If you can't take on board that some don't differentiate between religions that's not anyone elses fault but your own."


:joker: What the hell are you talking about above? It makes no sense.

"It's also rather insulting to have the insinuation that if you are anti religion you must by default be pro terrorist! It's ridiculous and as I'm suspecting on of the 'certain members' I feel it's important to highlight when you are making these shameful remarks."

:joker::joker: What the hell are you talking about in the section which I have emboldened above? It makes no sense.

Please calm down Kizzy, and re-post the part of my post from which you draw such ridiculous conclusions so that I and others on here can actually cross reference to see where you may have at least some justification - no matter how tenuous - for your misinterpretations. Oh, and I genuinely don't understand what you mean by: "as I'm suspecting on of the 'certain members'"? What are you "suspecting" "on of" which "members"?

Bye for now. :wavey:

[Kizzy]

"If you can't take on board that some don't differentiate between religions that's not anyone elses fault but your own."


:joker: What the hell are you talking about above? It makes no sense.

"It's also rather insulting to have the insinuation that if you are anti religion you must by default be pro terrorist! It's ridiculous and as I'm suspecting on of the 'certain members' I feel it's important to highlight when you are making these shameful remarks."

:joker::joker: What the hell are you talking about in the section which I have emboldened above? It makes no sense.

Please calm down Kizzy, and re-post the part of my post from which you draw such ridiculous conclusions so that I and others on here can actually cross reference to see where you may have at least some justification - no matter how tenuous - for your misinterpretations. Oh, and I genuinely don't understand what you mean by: "as I'm suspecting on of the 'certain members'"? What are you "suspecting" "on of" which "members"?

Bye for now. :wavey:

Ah patronising?...

It makes sense if you think back to when I said all religions operate through a system of fear, for power and influence at their core... in that respect they're all the same.
If you don't do this, that will happen.

I am calm, I will explain... 'certain members on here continually attack Christianity, their lack of real condemnation or even criticism of Islam and Islamic terrorists is glaring'

I feel you are suggesting I am one of these members that you are opposed to, I take offence to the fact you are insinuating that as well as 'attacking' Christianity by not stating that I condemn terrorism as if it's some 'glaring' statement of some sort....Does everyone now have to state the obvious to appease you?

[user104658]

In answer to your ridiculous and presumptuous claims which I have emboldened, I am not implying anything of the sort. Do not 'twist' my statements which are in print for all to see. If I had meant that "most" Islamic preachers are hateful I would have stated as much, and if I had meant that there are ZERO Jewish or Christian preachers preaching anything negative, I would have stated as much.

As for your other claims, I welcome you expounding upon them with suitable corroborating evidence.
Yes they are in print, they don't require any twisting, it is exactly what you said. Again:



Islamic Fundamentalist Imams, Muftis and Ayatollahs preach violence and hatred, Rabbis and Priests and Vicars do not.

It's a non-statement. Islamic Fundamentalist Imams preach violence and hatred. Jewish Fundamentalist Rabbis preach violence and hatred. Christian Fundamentalist preachers preach violence and hatred. Your statement was disingenuous because you compared fundamentalists from one religion to "normal" preachers of other religions. It's not a direct comparison. It's meaningless, and designed purely to cast some in a better light than others.

As for the second part, are you really asking me to back up / "prove" that there are Rabbis in Israel preaching hatred of Palestine, or that certain Bible-belt American preachers advocate violence against homosexuals? Are you trying to say that without proof, you think these claims are false? It's common knowledge, Kirk.

[kirklancaster]

I will answer you out of common courtesy despite your descent once more into 'Strawman' tactics.Here is what I actually stated:

"Originally Posted by kirklancaster - "Islamic Fundamentalist Imams, Muftis and Ayatollahs preach violence and hatred, Rabbis and Priests and Vicars do not."

And here is what you dishonestly twist my statement into:

"but what you are doing is implying that "most" Islamic preachers are hateful and - unfathomably - that there are ZERO Jewish or Christian preachers preaching anything negative."


Now let's analyse what you are attempting to do:

I specify Islamic Fundamentalist Imams, Muftis and Ayatollahs. You turn my clear STATEMENT into your IMPLICATION without any genuine reason.

You turn my "ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALIST" in to your "MOST ISLAMIC PREACHERS" when that is CLEARLY NOT WHAT I WROTE.

In my opinion, most "Islamic preachers" are - like most Muslims - peace loving moderate people of faith. ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALIST PREACHERS are not.

You are deliberately TWISTING what I actually wrote, but when I accused you of such a practice you write:

"Yes they are in print, they don't require any twisting, it is exactly what you said."

Well, clearly, it is NOT EXACTLY WHAT I SAID - IS IT?

So please stop with the deceitful Strawman tactics because it just ruins threads. We have some seriously intelligent and knowledgeable members on here who shy away once you employ such tactics and it is not fair,not conducive to intelligent debate, and impoverishes the forum.

And as for:

"for the second part, are you really asking me to back up / "prove" that there are Rabbis in Israel preaching hatred of Palestine, or that certain Bible-belt American preachers advocate violence against homosexuals? Are you trying to say that without proof, you think these claims are false? It's common knowledge, Kirk."

Yes Toy Soldier, I am asking you to provide evidence for what you claim. You make so many 'sweeping claims' in your posts - all without genuine grounds - that I would like you to corroborate these particular claims.

[user104658]

I will answer you out of common courtesy despite your descent once more into 'Strawman' tactics.Here is what I actually stated:

"Originally Posted by kirklancaster - "Islamic Fundamentalist Imams, Muftis and Ayatollahs preach violence and hatred, Rabbis and Priests and Vicars do not."

And here is what you dishonestly twist my statement into:

"but what you are doing is implying that "most" Islamic preachers are hateful and - unfathomably - that there are ZERO Jewish or Christian preachers preaching anything negative."


Now let's analyse what you are attempting to do:

I specify Islamic Fundamentalist Imams, Muftis and Ayatollahs. You turn my clear STATEMENT into your IMPLICATION without any genuine reason.

You turn my "ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALIST" in to your "MOST ISLAMIC PREACHERS" when that is CLEARLY NOT WHAT I WROTE.

In my opinion, most "Islamic preachers" are - like most Muslims - peace loving moderate people of faith. ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALIST PREACHERS are not.

You are deliberately TWISTING what I actually wrote, but when I accused you of such a practice you write:

"Yes they are in print, they don't require any twisting, it is exactly what you said."

Well, clearly, it is NOT EXACTLY WHAT I SAID - IS IT?

So please stop with the deceitful Strawman tactics because it just ruins threads. We have some seriously intelligent and knowledgeable members on here who shy away once you employ such tactics and it is not fair,not conducive to intelligent debate, and impoverishes the forum.

And as for:

"for the second part, are you really asking me to back up / "prove" that there are Rabbis in Israel preaching hatred of Palestine, or that certain Bible-belt American preachers advocate violence against homosexuals? Are you trying to say that without proof, you think these claims are false? It's common knowledge, Kirk."

Yes Toy Soldier, I am asking you to provide evidence for what you claim. You make so many 'sweeping claims' in your posts - all without genuine grounds - that I would like you to corroborate these particular claims.

I'm not buying it kirk, why would you compare Fundamentalist Islamic preachers to non-fundamentalist Christian and Jewish preachers? It's like comparing rabid dogs to normal cats and pointing out that the normal cats don't attack people. You are saying nothing about the normal dogs, or the rabid cats. It is a moot point. You deliberately compare the worst Islamic preachers to the normal everyday Jewish and Christian preachers. You completely overlook the normal Islamic preachers and the worst Jewish and Christian preachers, to make your point. Like I said, it is disingenuous.

Also, whilst you qualified the statement about Islamic preachers with "Fundamentalist", you offered no specifics for Priests, Vicars and Rabbis. You simply said outright that "they do not preach hatred", implying that *none* of them preach hatred, ever. Which is simply not true.

I don't believe for a second that you think it's true that every last rabbi and preacher is non-violent, that you believe there is not a single non-peaceful Jewish and Christian preacher in the world, without me "proving it". I think you know fine well that they exist. Making out that it must be "proven" can only be considered an attempt to disproportionately and with bias defend the faiths that you have deemed the "better ones". It's also massively offensive to the thousands of people who have been on the receiving end of Christian intolerance and the people who have been beaten and killed by what can only be described as Jewish jihadists in Israel.

However, quickly, here is a good one because it contains videos - first hand evidence - of hateful Christian preachers. Please watch the videos. I'm sure you will still, somehow, deny it:

http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2012/05/30/492188/churches-preach-anti-gay-violence/

As for hatred preached by Rabbis in Israel, kirk, I am not even for a second going to entertain the notion that you don't know about this. Seriously. It is a massive problem, it would take you 30 seconds to find thousands of articles on the issue. The US and even occasionally the Israeli government themselves have condemned these Jewish hate preachers. Trying to claim they don't exist is patently ridiculous.

However, here is a link to an article - which includes direct quotations - from a hateful Rabbi in the good old US of A.

http://mondoweiss.net/2014/10/genocidal-atlanta-hashanah

I would also point out that the people who own and run this website are themselves Jewish.

[Josy]

Can we stick to discussing the topic of the thread and NOT other members please, this includes blanket statements like 'certain members' 'some members' and so on, it constantly turns into tit for tat sniping and then completely ruins the thread for others.

This goes for this thread and all of the other ones in this section.

[arista]

http://www.addictinginfo.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/wbc-protest-islam.jpg



Yes Happy America

[kirklancaster]

What evidence would that be, besides his middle name which is apparently so necessary to include?

I apologise for the delay in responding Matt, but I got drawn in elsewhere on here – unfortunately. This is going to be a long post , but could have been ten times longer because of the sheer weight of evidence that Obama is a Muslim. I have 28 pages on Obama and this very subject in my own files alone which are the result of researching and cross referencing internet articles, newspaper articles, and excerpts from 2 books (I’m currently writing a thriller novel ) I have found the usual articles which rebut some of which I post here, but after extensive past and recent cross checking, I'm inclined to believe this which I post.

Can I start with the name which is Obama’s:

HUSSEIN

This strictly Muslim name is reputedly unheard of prior to first being used by the prophet Muhammad when he named his grandson Husayn ibn Ali after claiming that he had been commanded to do so by the archangel Gabriel.

BACKGROUND
1) Obama was born a Muslim because his real father, Barack Obama Sr. was Muslim. So Obama was raised as a Muslim.

2)When Obama’s mother divorced Obama Sr, She married another Muslim - Lolo Soetoro. So Obama continued to be raised as a Muslim:

3) Obama's own half-sister, Maya Soetoro-Ng states: "My whole family was Muslim, and most of the people I knew were Muslim."

4) In 1967 Obama’s family relocated to the predominantly Muslim country of Indonesia and Obama's first school was ‘Francis of Assisi’ a Catholic School which catered for other Faiths. Documents show that each student had to choose one of five state-sanctioned religions when registering – Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Catholic or Protestant. Barack Hussein Obama – now using the name Barry Soetoro – registered his faith as Muslim.

5)A former Indonesian classmate of Obama’s - Rony Amir - is on record as stating that; “All the relatives of Barry's (Obama’s alias) father were very devout Muslims" and describes Obama as "previously quite religious in Islam."

6) Obama’s second school in Indonesia was the ‘Besuki’ Public School in Jakarta, where ‘Barry’ also registered his faith as Muslim.

7) Teachers and former classmates confirm that he enrolled as a Muslim.

8) As a Muslim pupil, Obama studied the Quran two hours every week.

9) In his autobiography, ‘Dreams of My Father’, Obama relates how he got into trouble for clowning around during “Koranic studies” confirming that he was a Muslim.

10) Nicholas D. Kristof of ‘The New York Times’ reports that Obama "recalled the opening lines of the Arabic call to prayer, reciting them him with a “first-rate accent."

11) Obama's half-sister recalled that the family (including Obama) attended the mosque "for big communal events.

12) Obama’s childhood friends state that "Obama sometimes went to Friday prayers at the local mosque."

13) Not only is it on record that "Obama occasionally followed his stepfather to the mosque for Friday prayers." Zulfin Adi – an Indonesian Muslim friend of Obama’s states that Obama "was Muslim. He went to the mosque. I remember him wearing a sarong"

14) Indeed Matt, Obama himself has stated that while living in Indonesia, a Muslim country, he "didn't practice (Islam)" a statement which though designed to rebut claims that he is a Muslim, actually confirms that he is – practicing or not. (The claim that he is non-practicing is a lie anyway).

15) When questioned, Obama’s PR spokesperson went on record as saying that he couldn’t answer why Obama was listed as a Muslim at both his Indonesian schools and emphasised: . "Senator Obama has never been a Muslim."

16) However, when further pressed less than a couple of months later, the Obama PR Office “retreated from that absolute statement and instead issued a more nuanced one: "Obama has never been a practicing Muslim." Again, this distinction actually confirms that he is a Muslim.

Matt, the evidence that Obama was born and raised a Muslim is irrefutable in my opinion, but it is the depths of his deceit in trying to conceal this fact, and the hypocrisy of cloaking his Islamic faith under Christianity which I find highly suspect and very sinister.

So let’s see what Obama himself says about his faith and see if it tallies with the truth above.

Here’s Barack Hussein Obama’s declarations prior to securing the presidency, where he denies being a Muslim, denies ever having been a Muslim, and repeatedly stresses what a devout Christian he is:

Lie No 1) Barak Obama December 2007:
"I've always been a Christian......... The only connection I've had to Islam is that my grandfather on my father's side came from that country [Kenya]. But I've never practiced Islam."

Lie No 2)Barak Obama February 2008:
"I have never been a Muslim. … other than my name and the fact that I lived in a populous Muslim country for 4 years when I was a child [Indonesia, 1967-71] I have very little connection to the Islamic religion."

Lie No 3) 12th Nov 2008 - Obama’s Campaign Website when he was running for the presidency:
"Barack Obama Is Not and Has Never Been a Muslim," and: "Obama never prayed in a mosque. He has never been a Muslim, was not raised a Muslim, and is a committed Christian."

Lie No 4) 22nd Dec 2008 – When explaining his Muslim heritage: “My father was from Kenya, and a lot of people in his village were Muslim. He didn't practice Islam. Truth is he wasn't very religious. He met my mother. My mother was a Christian from Kansas, and they married and then divorced. I was raised by my mother. So, I've always been a Christian. The only connection I've had to Islam is that my grandfather on my father's side came from that country. But I've never practiced Islam. … For a while, I lived in Indonesia because my mother was teaching there. And that's a Muslim country. And I went to school. But I didn't practice.”

Now let’s just study the devout Christian image he projected during his 2008 Presidential Campaign as in this below taken from just one of his campaign leaflets:

“Guided by his Christian faith, Barack Obama is the leader we can trust....”

“Barak Obama: Committed Christian”

“I believe in the power of prayer”

“We do what we do because God is with us....

"When Moses was first called to lead his people to the promised land, he said, “I don’t think I can do it Lord, I don’t feel brave and courageous”. The Lord said, “I will be with you, I’ll show you what to do”

And then let’s weigh the above against his statements and actions concerning Christianity, since:

1) Prior to giving a televised speech from the ‘Gaston Hall’ in the Georgetown University, the White House requested the university to “cover over” a monogram symbolizing Jesus Christ’s name which would be in camera shot behind the President. “The Gold ‘IHS’ monogram inscribed on a pediment in the hall was covered over by a piece of black-painted plywood, and remained covered over the next day”.

Quotes By Barack Obama About Christianity and the Bible.

2) “Whatever we once were, we are no longer a Christian nation”

3) “We do not consider ourselves a Christian nation.”

4) “Which passages of scripture should guide our public policy? Should we go with Leviticus, which suggests slavery is OK and that eating shellfish is an abomination? Or we could go with Deuteronomy, which suggests stoning your child if he strays from the faith?”

5) “Even those who claim the Bible’s inerrancy make distinctions between Scriptural edicts, sensing that some passages – the Ten Commandments, say, or a belief in Christ’s divinity – are central to Christian faith, while others are more culturally specific and may be modified to accommodate modern life.”

6) “If all it took was someone proclaiming I believe Jesus Christ and that he died for my sins, and that was all there was to it, people wouldn’t have to keep coming to church, would they.”

And this last proves Obama’s lies that his mother (who was a ‘secular humanist) was a Christian and so he was “raised as a Christian” –

7) “I’ve said this before, and I know this raises questions in the minds of some evangelicals. I do not believe that my mother, who never formally embraced Christianity as far as I know … I do not believe she went to hell.”

OBAMA AND ISLAM
1) Obama is on record as stating that:” The Muslim call to prayer is one of the prettiest sounds on Earth at sunset and recited the opening lines; ‘Allah is supreme.... I witness that there is no God but Allah’ in a perfect Arabic accent.

2) Obama personally raised nearly $1 million dollars and campaigned for a Kenyan President who had a written agreement with Islamic leaders pledging to convert Kenya to an Islamic State which bans Christianity.

3) Obama stated that the autobiography of infamous black Muslim activist Malcolm X “inspired him in his youth”.

4) Obama visited several mosques whilst on a political trip to Kenya but did not visit any of the many churches or even the National Temple.

5) Obama enjoyed a bigger increase in voter support in 2008 (compared to 2004) by Muslims than by any other voting group, including blacks; "Muslim turnout in the U.S. elections reached 95 percent, the highest Muslim turnout in U.S. history."

6) Obama rarely attends church or has church services in the White House and when ‘President-elect’ he never attended [Sunday] church services – a departure from the example of his two immediate predecessors.

7) At the G-20 summit in April 2009, Obama bowed deeply to Saudi King Abdullah, a Muslim who is also the 'Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques'. This caused an outrage because no other US President in history had ever displayed such obsequious deference to any foreign official, and Obama himself has never bowed to any other Royal Leaders. Obama later stated, "We have to change our behavior in showing the Muslim world greater respect".

8) In 2006, Obama gave an irreverent speech about using the Bible in public policy. “It resembled a stand-up comedy act, with Obama making fun of the books of the Torah, The Ten Commandments and The Sermon on The Mount, and other key Biblical passages.

9) On September 25, 2012, in his address to The United Nations General Assembly, Obama stated that: "The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam"

10) Obama's spiritual mentor of 20 years, Rev. J. Wright explained in an interview "that Barack Obama was steeped in Islam when he first met him," and said that he “made it comfortable” for Obama to accept Christianity without having renounce his Islamic background.” (something Obama was concerned about).

11) Obama selected Chuck Hagel – a former Republican senator “most sympathetic to Muslim positions in the Middle East” - to be Secretary of Defense despite intense objections by both political parties. The ‘Iranian State Press’ approved of his choice.

12) During a televised interview with George Stephanopoulos, whilst discussing whether John McCain's campaign has suggested that Obama is not a Christian, Obama committed a huge ‘faux pas’ when he said that:“John McCain had not talked about my Muslim faith” .Stephanopoulos, aware of this Freudian slip' and the potential outrage, then suggested that Obama change his answer to refer instead to "Christian faith."

13) In a recent speech on Islamic terrorism, Obama stated that: “ISIL is not 'Islamic.' No religion condones the killing of innocents, and the vast majority of ISIL's victims have been Muslim. And ISIL is certainly not a state; it was formerly al Qaeda's affiliate in Iraq and has taken advantage of sectarian strife and Syria's civil war to gain territory on both sides of the Iraq-Syrian border. It is recognized by no government nor by the people it subjugates."

14) “We will convey our deep appreciation for the Islamic faith, which has done so much over the centuries to shape the world — including in my own country.”

15)“As a student of history, I also know civilisation’s debt to Islam.

16) “Islam has always been part of America”

17) “We will encourage more Americans to study in Muslim communities”.

18) “I made clear that America is not – and never will be – at war with Islam.”

19)“Islam is not part of the problem in combating violent extremism – it is an important part of promoting peace.”

20) “Throughout history, Islam has demonstrated through words and deeds the possibilities of religious tolerance and racial equality.” (His he for real???)

22)“Ramadan is a celebration of a faith known for great diversity and racial equality.

23) The Holy Koran tells us, ‘O mankind! We have created you male and a female; and we have made you into nations and tribes so that you may know one another.’”

24)“I look forward to hosting an after dinner celebrating Ramadan here at the White House later this week, and wish you a blessed month.”

25)“That experience guides my conviction that partnership between America and Islam must be based on what Islam is, not what it isn’t. And I consider it part of my responsibility as president of the United States to fight against negative stereotypes of Islam wherever they appear.”

Transcript: President Obama's ISIS speech
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-HqHSkYG-Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CseUglupmZk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tKMiRxnRN4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaKeWwE0t7E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Yro63c7B7A

[the truth]

Great post there , incredibly detailed and serious food for thought.

[kirklancaster]

Great post there , incredibly detailed and serious food for thought.

Thank you Truth.

[Tom4784]

http://www.addictinginfo.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/wbc-protest-islam.jpg

This doesn't make sense, I thought Christianity was a peaceful and tolerant religion? Why are these Christians cheering the deaths of innocent people and quoting bible passages that demand allegiance or death? I thought Christianity was far too developed for this. All Christians should be made to apologise and denounce the actions of the Christians in this picture lest they be tarred with the same brush.

At the end of the day it's the extremists that define an entire religion isn't it? All Muslims are obviously Isis supporters that want to spread misery and death through their barbaric religion and Christianity is obviously filled with peadophilic white supremacists that preach hate and rejoice at the deaths of innocent people just because they had the audacity to follow a different god. Who cares about the majority of peaceful followers of both religions? Let's focus on the extreme minority and use that to base our opinion on.

[the truth]

This doesn't make sense, I thought Christianity was a peaceful and tolerant religion? Why are these Christians cheering the deaths of innocent people and quoting bible passages that demand allegiance or death? I thought Christianity was far too developed for this. All Christians should be made to apologise and denounce the actions of the Christians in this picture lest they be tarred with the same brush.

At the end of the day it's the extremists that define an entire religion isn't it? All Muslims are obviously Isis supporters that want to spread misery and death through their barbaric religion and Christianity is obviously filled with peadophilic white supremacists that preach hate and rejoice at the deaths of innocent people just because they had the audacity to follow a different god. Who cares about the majority of peaceful followers of both religions? Let's focus on the extreme minority and use that to base our opinion on.

the billion plus Christians follow Christ not a handful of lunatics from the Midwest, get some perspective

[Tom4784]

the billion plus Christians follow Christ not a handful of lunatics from the Midwest, get some perspective

Your logic is that the minority defines the majority though, you're quick to brand Islam a violent religion due to the actions of a loud minority but you refuse to apply the same logic to your own religion? That's incredibly hypocritical.

[user104658]

Kirk - I have to admit I found your post regarding Obama and Islam to be quite interesting and certainly very thorough. However, my overwhelming feeling when I was reading it was: how sad, and deeply disturbing, that anyone who wants to have a hope of becoming leader of supposedly the most diverse and free country in the world, has to pretend to be a devout Christian to stand a chance.

It is sinister that he concealed his past and feigned allegiance to Christianity to succeed in US politics. But it's not the act of concealment that is sinister - but the very fact that he would simply have HAD to, or else be rejected by the people there.

Is that not strange?

Why is it essential that a US president be a devout Christian? Why is anything else considered "dark" or "sinister"? Of course this is a rhetorical question. I already know why.

[kirklancaster]

Kirk - I have to admit I found your post regarding Obama and Islam to be quite interesting and certainly very thorough. However, my overwhelming feeling when I was reading it was: how sad, and deeply disturbing, that anyone who wants to have a hope of becoming leader of supposedly the most diverse and free country in the world, has to pretend to be a devout Christian to stand a chance.

It is sinister that he concealed his past and feigned allegiance to Christianity to succeed in US politics. But it's not the act of concealment that is sinister - but the very fact that he would simply have HAD to, or else be rejected by the people there.

Is that not strange?

Why is it essential that a US president be a devout Christian? Why is anything else considered "dark" or "sinister"? Of course this is a rhetorical question. I already know why.

I agree that him being Muslim should have no bearing on whether he would make a good President or not - in my book it shouldn't, and I don't really know just why he did not be honest from the start.

You might be right and he may have been advised from the start of his political ambition that he would have to conceal his true faith and 'adopt' Christianity in order to stand any chance of realising that ambition, but I think that was bad advice because the truth was bound to surface at some point.

I do have a real problem with his 'charade', but on a personal level, I have a greater problem - not with his 'feigned allegiance to Christianity' as you termed it - but with his increasingly evident anti-Christian attitude, because he has started to actually mock the very faith he 'adopted' in order to attain the presidency -- no matter what genuine reasons he may have had to feign such allegiance in the first place.

I don't profess to know all the answers T.S. but I can't help having my suspicions in light of what I regard as overwhelming evidence which justifies the many questions which do need answering about this 'iffy' matter.

[lostalex]

Islam as an organization and philosophy is more evil than the KKK.

[Alf]

The free Western World with Christian values are not only at war with a medievil barbaric religion, but we're also at war with the looney liberal left who seem to think that westerners are the oppressers and every one else are the oppressed.


Enoch was right.

[Livia]

The free Western World with Christian values are not only at war with a medievil barbaric religion, but we're also at war with the looney liberal left who seem to think that westerners are the oppressers and every one else are the oppressed.


Enoch was right.

Not sure I agree with the Enoch comment, but the rest of it is pretty close to the truth.

Nice to see you wannashag!

[sassysocks]

This doesn't make sense, I thought Christianity was a peaceful and tolerant religion? Why are these Christians cheering the deaths of innocent people and quoting bible passages that demand allegiance or death? I thought Christianity was far too developed for this. All Christians should be made to apologise and denounce the actions of the Christians in this picture lest they be tarred with the same brush.

At the end of the day it's the extremists that define an entire religion isn't it? All Muslims are obviously Isis supporters that want to spread misery and death through their barbaric religion and Christianity is obviously filled with peadophilic white supremacists that preach hate and rejoice at the deaths of innocent people just because they had the audacity to follow a different god. Who cares about the majority of peaceful followers of both religions? Let's focus on the extreme minority and use that to base our opinion on.

Are these Christians planting bombs, taking hostages and beheading them and burning them alive? Are they stoning their own people to death and enforcing control through fear and violence? Are they trying to enforce their so-called beliefs and way of life onto others? Do they have many parts of the world on alert because of their terrorist activities? Another ridiculous comparison from someone trying to be clever but just demonstrating they cannot see the wood for the trees.

Like many, I feel that if the majority of so-called normal Muslims were to speak up more and do more to deal with their own instead of the rest of the world having to do it, maybe I would believe there was less support for their criminal activities from normal Muslims.

The Western world has more freedom and less oppression because the majority (normal people) wanted it and have worked together to make it happen by standing up to the minority and not turning a blind eye to their activities.

Worldwide the Muslim community is extensive, growing at a far greater rate than most other communities - is it really so hard for the majority to deal with the minority assuming of course that normal Muslims are indeed the majority or the extremist Muslims are in the minority.

[Tom4784]

Are these Christians planting bombs, taking hostages and beheading them and burning them alive? Are they stoning their own people to death and enforcing control through fear and violence? Are they trying to enforce their so-called beliefs and way of life onto others? Do they have many parts of the world on alert because of their terrorist activities? Another ridiculous comparison from someone trying to be clever but just demonstrating they cannot see the wood for the trees.

Like many, I feel that if the majority of so-called normal Muslims were to speak up more and do more to deal with their own instead of the rest of the world having to do it, maybe I would believe there was less support for their criminal activities from normal Muslims.

The Western world has more freedom and less oppression because the majority (normal people) wanted it and have worked together to make it happen by standing up to the minority and not turning a blind eye to their activities.

Worldwide the Muslim community is extensive, growing at a far greater rate than most other communities - is it really so hard for the majority to deal with the minority assuming of course that normal Muslims are indeed the majority or the extremist Muslims are in the minority.

Still hypocritical, you expect all Muslims to atone for the sins of the few extremists yet you aren't prepared to hold other religions to the same standard. You can't pick or choose, it's all or nothing.

[sassysocks]

Still hypocritical, you expect all Muslims to atone for the sins of the few extremists yet you aren't prepared to hold other religions to the same standard. You can't pick or choose, it's all or nothing.

Again you miss the point.

Firstly are the extremists in the minority? If so why don't the majority do more to deal with the minority. At the end of the day the majority have the power so it is hardly any surprise that many doubt exactly who is and is not in the majority.

Secondly I am living in the present not the past. It is the Muslim religion causing all the problems today and threatening world peace, which of course affects all of us.

[user104658]

.

The Western world has more freedom and less oppression because the majority (normal people) wanted it and have worked together to make it happen by standing up to the minority and not turning a blind eye to their activities..

A common misconception. The western world has more personal freedom because it revolves around capitalism, and because the people who are running things benefit hugely from that capitalism and exploiting a free (or more or less free) market with huge numbers of relatively well off, relatively frivolous consumers.

Freedom and lack of oppression is essential to that consumer economy. Having a pleasant, comfortable life (and having a desire to keep it pleasant and comfortable, or make it more pleasant and comfortable) is also an integral to that capitalist / consumer economy.

That is why we are "free", and that is why we are "comfortable". If it benefited those with power and money for us not to be free or comfortable, we would not be free or comfortable.

[the truth]

Your logic is that the minority defines the majority though, you're quick to brand Islam a violent religion due to the actions of a loud minority but you refuse to apply the same logic to your own religion? That's incredibly hypocritical.

your comparing an ant-hill with an Everest of terrorism.....a misguided family of idiots from the sticks who have spouted drivel and carried out zero terrorist attacks compared with the worldwide terrorism of radical islam....your desperate moral relativity would be embarrassing from a 5 year old child who had no knowledge of the world

[the truth]

The free Western World with Christian values are not only at war with a medievil barbaric religion, but we're also at war with the looney liberal left who seem to think that westerners are the oppressers and every one else are the oppressed.


Enoch was right.

True

[the truth]

Still hypocritical, you expect all Muslims to atone for the sins of the few extremists yet you aren't prepared to hold other religions to the same standard. You can't pick or choose, it's all or nothing.

He never said that.....But muslim leaders , the muslim councils and those who have some authority should unite loudly as one to denounce the mass spread of radical islam terrorism....Obama needs to stop fudging this, the problem is with radical islam and radial Judaism / Zionism too

[the truth]

Are these Christians planting bombs, taking hostages and beheading them and burning them alive? Are they stoning their own people to death and enforcing control through fear and violence? Are they trying to enforce their so-called beliefs and way of life onto others? Do they have many parts of the world on alert because of their terrorist activities? Another ridiculous comparison from someone trying to be clever but just demonstrating they cannot see the wood for the trees.

Like many, I feel that if the majority of so-called normal Muslims were to speak up more and do more to deal with their own instead of the rest of the world having to do it, maybe I would believe there was less support for their criminal activities from normal Muslims.

The Western world has more freedom and less oppression because the majority (normal people) wanted it and have worked together to make it happen by standing up to the minority and not turning a blind eye to their activities.

Worldwide the Muslim community is extensive, growing at a far greater rate than most other communities - is it really so hard for the majority to deal with the minority assuming of course that normal Muslims are indeed the majority or the extremist Muslims are in the minority.

agreed. its a massive problem that the loony liberals have more than helped to create....its become so mental now , these sickos can bomb the innocent yet its racist for the innocent to say you bombed me

[sassysocks]

A common misconception. The western world has more personal freedom because it revolves around capitalism, and because the people who are running things benefit hugely from that capitalism and exploiting a free (or more or less free) market with huge numbers of relatively well off, relatively frivolous consumers.

Freedom and lack of oppression is essential to that consumer economy. Having a pleasant, comfortable life (and having a desire to keep it pleasant and comfortable, or make it more pleasant and comfortable) is also an integral to that capitalist / consumer economy.

That is why we are "free", and that is why we are "comfortable". If it benefited those with power and money for us not to be free or comfortable, we would not be free or comfortable.

No way of life is perfect and never will be and there will always those that benefit more than others. But the capitalist system has proved most successful for the majority which is why the majority are relatively content with the way things are and why so many come from less successful economies in their droves. Give me capitalism to dictatorship any day.

Improved education and communication, all part of the capitalist environment, have led to a better understanding and support of human rights and a better life for most. Such a system benefits the majority which is why it is so successful and why so many subscribe to it and why many of those that don't resent those that do.

[user104658]

No way of life is perfect and never will be and there will always those that benefit more than others. But the capitalist system has proved most successful for the majority which is why the majority are relatively content with the way things are and why so many come from less successful economies in their droves. Give me capitalism to dictatorship any day.

Improved education and communication, all part of the capitalist environment, have led to a better understanding and support of human rights and a better life for most. Such a system benefits the majority which is why it is so successful and why so many subscribe to it and why many of those that don't resent those that do.
I'm not saying that we aren't comparatively lucky to live comfortable lives and have a higher degree of personal freedom than most. I am aware that the majority of the world's population have it "worse" in many ways (although not in every way, in my opinion, but that's another debate).

All I'm disputing is the reasoning for it. We are not comfortable and free because we joined hands and stood up to the minority of rich / powerful people and demanded respect. We are comfortable and free because it benefits that rich and powerful minority for us to be comfortable and free. As soon as it stops being beneficial for those people (hopefully it won't, but if it does) then we can wave our comfort and freedom goodbye. Because whilst we have comfort, and we have freedom, and we (mostly) have a large degree of control over our own lives and decisions, what we certainly don't have is any power or control on a grander scale. We have what we are allowed.

[sassysocks]

I'm not saying that we aren't comparatively lucky to live comfortable lives and have a higher degree of personal freedom than most. I am aware that the majority of the world's population have it "worse" in many ways (although not in every way, in my opinion, but that's another debate).

All I'm disputing is the reasoning for it. We are not comfortable and free because we joined hands and stood up to the minority of rich / powerful people and demanded respect. We are comfortable and free because it benefits that rich and powerful minority for us to be comfortable and free. As soon as it stops being beneficial for those people (hopefully it won't, but if it does) then we can wave our comfort and freedom goodbye. Because whilst we have comfort, and we have freedom, and we (mostly) have a large degree of control over our own lives and decisions, what we certainly don't have is any power or control on a grander scale. We have what we are allowed.

I don't disagree with much of what you say but I think we can't go backwards and we (Westerners) are now too educated and free-thinking to accept anything less than what we have and will always stand up and demand certain rights and never wave our comfort and freedom goodbye quietly. I simply don't believe that could happen now.

Which is why such religous dictatorships deny the majority an education and don't allow them the power of free-thought thus denying them a voice and stripping them of any power. They end up totallly brainwashed and believing all the garbage they have been spoon-fed since birth.

I think the reasoning behind our way of life. although not perfect, is less brutal, less controlling and more respectful and compassionate than that of religous dictatorships. What we do have it more control over our lives and more power than those confined by enforced religous doctrine.

[Tom4784]

Again you miss the point.

Firstly are the extremists in the minority? If so why don't the majority do more to deal with the minority. At the end of the day the majority have the power so it is hardly any surprise that many doubt exactly who is and is not in the majority.

Secondly I am living in the present not the past. It is the Muslim religion causing all the problems today and threatening world peace, which of course affects all of us.

I didn't miss any point, you just refuse to understand.

The extremists are obviously the minority, they're just a loud and organised one and they're hard for the military forces of the world to stop so why do you expect your average Muslim to be able to do anything? Would you expect the same from Christians if Isis was a Christian organisation? I'm guessing you wouldn't, well, I KNOW you wouldn't.

Also it's not Islam that's causing problems, It's extremists that are using the religion that's causing the problems, the fact you can't differentiate between a Muslim and a terrorist is just sad. I dislike religion because of extremists but it's not only Islam that's guilty of having extremist groups that use their faith for their own gain. Like ?I've said plenty of times in this topic, all religions are basically the same, it's foolish to argue against one and defend another.

[Tom4784]

He never said that.....But muslim leaders , the muslim councils and those who have some authority should unite loudly as one to denounce the mass spread of radical islam terrorism....Obama needs to stop fudging this, the problem is with radical islam and radial Judaism / Zionism too

There's been plenty of anti-isis movements and protests from the muslim community but you act like they're condoning Isis because you're only looking to the mainstream media for answers. The media will never paint muslims in a good light, they earn too much money from Muslims being the evil boogeymen to scare people like you into buying their papers and buying into their crap.

Muslims have spoken out against Isis and extremism but they'll never get highlighted in the media since it doesn't fit with what the media's image of Islam is, thus it gets ignored. The media will only ever typically highlight stories that paint Muslims in a bad light.

[user104658]

Muslims have spoken out against Isis and extremism but they'll never get highlighted in the media since it doesn't fit with what the media's image of Islam is, thus it gets ignored. The media will only ever typically highlight stories that paint Muslims in a bad light.

Not only that, but currently the ONLY really feet in boots on the ground fighting against the main ISIS forces are Muslims. Or, in fact, progressive non-religious groups of people who come from Muslim backgrounds (something that the mass media would have us believe don't actually exist, because people are murdered if they try to leave Islam).

[sassysocks]

There's been plenty of anti-isis movements and protests from the muslim community but you act like they're condoning Isis because you're only looking to the mainstream media for answers. The media will never paint muslims in a good light, they earn too much money from Muslims being the evil boogeymen to scare people like you into buying their papers and buying into their crap.

Muslims have spoken out against Isis and extremism but they'll never get highlighted in the media since it doesn't fit with what the media's image of Islam is, thus it gets ignored. The media will only ever typically highlight stories that paint Muslims in a bad light.

I'm sorry but you're obsessed with the media and your belief that they are intent on undermining all Muslims. Whether or not there is any truth in that you are out of order implying that you are the only one clued-up enough to see that.

According to you everyone who is distrustful of the Muslim religon is brainwashed by the media and most likely middle-aged women terrified of them because they are not like us. You wish. Patronising garbage.

On point, some Muslims may have spoken out, but not enough. They don't have to be congregating on street corners with anti-British banners to support extremist activity. Who knows what is going on behind closed doors. If it were simply a small minority of young British Muslims going abroad and taking up arms against Britain and becoming involved in terrorist activity that would not be so worrying, but there are increasing numbers of them doing so.

We are told Muslims are very respectful of their parents and their beliefs so if their parents are bringing them up to respect Britain and are denouncing the extremists, why are they so full of hate for the British. Where does it come from? Home seems an obvious start.

[Tom4784]

I'm sorry but you're obsessed with the media and your belief that they are intent on undermining all Muslims. Whether or not there is any truth in that you are out of order implying that you are the only one clued-up enough to see that.

According to you everyone who is distrustful of the Muslim religon is brainwashed by the media and most likely middle-aged women terrified of them because they are not like us. You wish. Patronising garbage.

On point, some Muslims may have spoken out, but not enough. They don't have to be congregating on street corners with anti-British banners to support extremist activity. Who knows what is going on behind closed doors. If it were simply a small minority of young British Muslims going abroad and taking up arms against Britain and becoming involved in terrorist activity that would not be so worrying, but there are increasing numbers of them doing so.

We are told Muslims are very respectful of their parents and their beliefs so if their parents are bringing them up to respect Britain and are denouncing the extremists, why are they so full of hate for the British. Where does it come from? Home seems an obvious start.

A million Muslims could unite in the middle of Trafalgar Square and have a massive protest against Isis and Extremism and it still would not be enough for you, nothing ever will. It's much easier to blame the Muslims and think them all terrorists isn't it?

[sassysocks]

A million Muslims could unite in the middle of Trafalgar Square and have a massive protest against Isis and Extremism and it still would not be enough for you, nothing ever will. It's much easier to blame the Muslims and think them all terrorists isn't it?

I don't know what would be enough, but what we are getting now, which is practically nothing, is not it. The parents of these Muslim men publicly disowning them would be a start.

[Johnnyuk123]

The world would be a better place without ANY religion.

[Tom4784]

I don't know what would be enough, but what we are getting now, which is practically nothing, is not it. The parents of these Muslim men publicly disowning them would be a start.

There's plenty of Muslim outcry against Isis, you just aren't made aware of it. Remember, Muslims have suffered more at the hands of Isis than anyone.

[the truth]

The world would be a better place without ANY religion.

yet you you appear to believe in clairvocancy with your absurd crystal ball predictions....so without the peaceful wondrous loving forgiving words of wisdom of Jesus the world will somehow be more peaceful , yeah right? so no one will fight over land power wealth oil control etc etc etc get a grip youre in fantasy land mate

[the truth]

There's been plenty of anti-isis movements and protests from the muslim community but you act like they're condoning Isis because you're only looking to the mainstream media for answers. The media will never paint muslims in a good light, they earn too much money from Muslims being the evil boogeymen to scare people like you into buying their papers and buying into their crap.

Muslims have spoken out against Isis and extremism but they'll never get highlighted in the media since it doesn't fit with what the media's image of Islam is, thus it gets ignored. The media will only ever typically highlight stories that paint Muslims in a bad light.

complete made up lies..........its nothing to do with the media.......the truth is radical islam is blowing innocent people up across the globe in random acts of horrific terrorism..........you actually dare to belittle the evil they do and pass it off as the fault of the media or other religions...we see through your lies. its radical islam and it needs to be targetted

[the truth]

A million Muslims could unite in the middle of Trafalgar Square and have a massive protest against Isis and Extremism and it still would not be enough for you, nothing ever will. It's much easier to blame the Muslims and think them all terrorists isn't it?

that hasn't happened it hasn't even come close to happening and the mass mass terrorist murders of radical islam continue, get real

[Tom4784]

complete made up lies..........its nothing to do with the media.......the truth is radical islam is blowing innocent people up across the globe in random acts of horrific terrorism..........you actually dare to belittle the evil they do and pass it off as the fault of the media or other religions...we see through your lies. its radical islam and it needs to be targetted

Perfect example of what I'm talking about. Hysterical ignorant nonsense.

[Alf]

Not sure I agree with the Enoch comment, but the rest of it is pretty close to the truth.

Nice to see you wannashag!
I just put the Enoch comment in to wind up the looney left. (they're so easy to offend)

Although if you do watch his rivers' of blood speech, it'a hard to say he got it wrong. And most of what he said is happening.

[kirklancaster]

The world would be a better place without ANY religion.

Sorry Johnny, but this statement is pure cliched fallacy. So will you please bear with me while I explain just why I say as much?

NON-RELIGIOUS WARS (source: Steve Perry):

1.) The Seven Years’ War (Britain & France)
2.)The American Revolution
3.)The French Revolution
4.)The Napoleonic Wars (France & Europe)
5.)The Revolutions in the Americas
6.)The Wars to create and preserve the British Empire (Boer War, Irish Revolution, and the Great Game with Russia would all be examples)
7.)The American Civil War
8.)The Crimean War
9.)The Spanish-American War
10.)The Great War, The War to End All Wars, or World War I.
11.)The Italian invasion of Ethiopia
12.)The Spanish Civil War
13.)Stalin’s invasions of Finland, the Baltic states, and Poland
14.)World War II
15.)The Chinese Revolution
16.)The Cold War, including but not limited to the Korean War, the Cuban Missile Crisis, the Vietnam War, the American intervention in Grenada, and the Soviet campaign in Afghanistan
17.)The Cultural Revolution in China
18.)Pol Pot’s Khmer Rouge Revolution
19.)The Falklands War
20.)The Persian Gulf War between Iran & Iraq
21.)The Persian Gulf War between the United Nations and Iraq
The Breakup of Yugoslavia (beginning with Slovenia).

More:

Philip and Axelrod’s three-volume Encyclopaedia of Wars, is an extensive work which analyses 1,763 wars which have been fought since the beginning of recorded human history, and concludes that only 123 as being religious in nature. This is a mere 6.98% of all wars, but if one removes wars waged in the name of Islam (66), this already low percentage falls by half to just 3.23%.

Irrefutably then, non-religious motivations and secular ideologies are to blame for nearly all wars – not Religion.

But the above only deals with war and the statement was that “The world would be a better place without ANY religion.” So I’ll continue:

What of atrocities, genocide, and other examples of ‘Man’s Inhumanity To Man’ outside of the accepted definition of ‘war’ - as in ‘Dictatorships’?:

From R. J. Rummel’s work ‘Lethal Politics and Death by Government’:.

Non-Religious Dictator Lives Lost
• Joseph Stalin - 42,672,000
• Mao Zedong - 37,828,000
• Adolf Hitler - 20,946,000
• Chiang Kai-shek - 10,214,000
• Vladimir Lenin - 4,017,000
• Hideki Tojo - 3,990,000
• Pol Pot - 2,397,0003

Rummel says: “Almost 170 million men, women and children have been shot, beaten, tortured, knifed, burned, starved, frozen, crushed or worked to death; buried alive, drowned, hung, bombed or killed in any other of a myriad of ways governments have inflicted death on unarmed, helpless citizens and foreigners. The dead could conceivably be nearly 360 million people. It is though our species has been devastated by a modern Black Plague. And indeed it has, but a plague of Power, not germs.”

What of Non-State murders?

Abul Djabar killed 65 men and boys in Afghanistan by strangling them with turbans while raping them and was suspected of over 300 murders.

Javad Iqbal Mughal killed 100 boys Lahore, Pakistan.

Luis Garavo killed 172 children in Colombia but suspected of over 400 murders.

The historical list totals many thousands and include many more familiar names, from Americans such as Gary Ridgeway (90 victims) and Jeffrey Dahmer, to home-grown monsters such as Harold Shipman (up to 297 victims) and Peter Sutcliffe and Fred and Rose West, and all with not a religious motive in sight.

But hey, let’s not stop here; perhaps our streets and homes would be safer if we rid the world of all religion?

Let’s just look at a couple of statistics from The Office of National Statistics for 2014:

• Latest figures from the Crime Survey for England and Wales (CSEW) show that, for the offences it covers, there were an estimated 7.0 million incidents of crime against households and resident adults (aged 16 and over) in England and Wales
• The numbers of rapes (24,043) and other sexual offences (48,934) are the highest recorded by the police since 2002/03.

7 Million Incidents of crime in one year, and this is just ‘reported’ crime.

But would this crime decrease without religion in the world or increase? Here’s why I firmly believe that crime would escalate:

A) Throughout history religion is only to blame for a miniscule percentage of all the atrocities, strife and troubles perpetrated by men against fellow men.
B) Without religion, all instances of ‘Man’s In humanity To Man, and all wars and crimes, would be thousands of times greater, because the simple fact is, that the greater billions of religious faithful throughout recorded history have been peaceful and law abiding specifically because of their religious beliefs – and this includes Christians, Muslims, Jews, and other faiths.

I’ll leave the last words to the much maligned (on here) Jesus Christ:

“For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man” (Mark 7:21–23).
:

[Johnnyuk123]

Sorry Johnny, but this statement is pure cliched fallacy. So will you please bear with me while I explain just why I say as much?

NON-RELIGIOUS WARS (source: Steve Perry):

1.) The Seven Years’ War (Britain & France)
2.)The American Revolution
3.)The French Revolution
4.)The Napoleonic Wars (France & Europe)
5.)The Revolutions in the Americas
6.)The Wars to create and preserve the British Empire (Boer War, Irish Revolution, and the Great Game with Russia would all be examples)
7.)The American Civil War
8.)The Crimean War
9.)The Spanish-American War
10.)The Great War, The War to End All Wars, or World War I.
11.)The Italian invasion of Ethiopia
12.)The Spanish Civil War
13.)Stalin’s invasions of Finland, the Baltic states, and Poland
14.)World War II
15.)The Chinese Revolution
16.)The Cold War, including but not limited to the Korean War, the Cuban Missile Crisis, the Vietnam War, the American intervention in Grenada, and the Soviet campaign in Afghanistan
17.)The Cultural Revolution in China
18.)Pol Pot’s Khmer Rouge Revolution
19.)The Falklands War
20.)The Persian Gulf War between Iran & Iraq
21.)The Persian Gulf War between the United Nations and Iraq
The Breakup of Yugoslavia (beginning with Slovenia).

More:

Philip and Axelrod’s three-volume Encyclopaedia of Wars, is an extensive work which analyses 1,763 wars which have been fought since the beginning of recorded human history, and concludes that only 123 as being religious in nature. This is a mere 6.98% of all wars, but if one removes wars waged in the name of Islam (66), this already low percentage falls by half to just 3.23%.

Irrefutably then, non-religious motivations and secular ideologies are to blame for nearly all wars – not Religion.

But the above only deals with war and the statement was that “The world would be a better place without ANY religion.” So I’ll continue:

What of atrocities, genocide, and other examples of ‘Man’s Inhumanity To Man’ outside of the accepted definition of ‘war’ - as in ‘Dictatorships’?:

From R. J. Rummel’s work ‘Lethal Politics and Death by Government’:.

Non-Religious Dictator Lives Lost
• Joseph Stalin - 42,672,000
• Mao Zedong - 37,828,000
• Adolf Hitler - 20,946,000
• Chiang Kai-shek - 10,214,000
• Vladimir Lenin - 4,017,000
• Hideki Tojo - 3,990,000
• Pol Pot - 2,397,0003

Rummel says: “Almost 170 million men, women and children have been shot, beaten, tortured, knifed, burned, starved, frozen, crushed or worked to death; buried alive, drowned, hung, bombed or killed in any other of a myriad of ways governments have inflicted death on unarmed, helpless citizens and foreigners. The dead could conceivably be nearly 360 million people. It is though our species has been devastated by a modern Black Plague. And indeed it has, but a plague of Power, not germs.”

What of Non-State murders?

Abul Djabar killed 65 men and boys in Afghanistan by strangling them with turbans while raping them and was suspected of over 300 murders.

Javad Iqbal Mughal killed 100 boys Lahore, Pakistan.

Luis Garavo killed 172 children in Colombia but suspected of over 400 murders.

The historical list totals many thousands and include many more familiar names, from Americans such as Gary Ridgeway (90 victims) and Jeffrey Dahmer, to home-grown monsters such as Harold Shipman (up to 297 victims) and Peter Sutcliffe and Fred and Rose West, and all with not a religious motive in sight.

But hey, let’s not stop here; perhaps our streets and homes would be safer if we rid the world of all religion?

Let’s just look at a couple of statistics from The Office of National Statistics for 2014:

• Latest figures from the Crime Survey for England and Wales (CSEW) show that, for the offences it covers, there were an estimated 7.0 million incidents of crime against households and resident adults (aged 16 and over) in England and Wales
• The numbers of rapes (24,043) and other sexual offences (48,934) are the highest recorded by the police since 2002/03.

7 Million Incidents of crime in one year, and this is just ‘reported’ crime.

But would this crime decrease without religion in the world or increase? Here’s why I firmly believe that crime would escalate:

A) Throughout history religion is only to blame for a miniscule percentage of all the atrocities, strife and troubles perpetrated by men against fellow men.
B) Without religion, all instances of ‘Man’s In humanity To Man, and all wars and crimes, would be thousands of times greater, because the simple fact is, that the greater billions of religious faithful throughout recorded history have been peaceful and law abiding specifically because of their religious beliefs – and this includes Christians, Muslims, Jews, and other faiths.

I’ll leave the last words to the much maligned (on here) Jesus Christ:

“For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man” (Mark 7:21–23).
:

Apparently god created everything yes?
I rest my case.

[kirklancaster]

Apparently god created everything yes?
I rest my case.

No Johnny, with respect. Irrespective of how everything came into being, the statement was; "The world would be a better place without ANY religion."

Take God out of the equation and presume that all religion is groundless fantasy, and we are still left with the truth that religion is not responsible for the vast majority of all the ills in the world, and therefore, removing all religion would not render the world a better place, but quite probably would render it a far, far, more terrible place.

Thanks for responding anyway.

[Crimson Dynamo]

The christian god of the bible killed around 25 million in his book and of course happily watches 20,000 children die each day of the year from hunger

around 7.3 million a year or 730 million in the last 100 years

hi again kirk

[kirklancaster]

The christian god of the bible killed around 25 million in his book and of course happily watches 20,000 children die each day of the year from hunger

around 7.3 million a year or 730 million in the last 100 years

hi again kirk

Hi LT.

But the statement under discussion referred to religion. If there was no God and no religion, the world would not be a better place, and 20,000 children would still die each day of the year from hunger.

And according to Islam there is no God but Allah, so does your claim pertain to him?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Hi LT.

But the statement under discussion referred to religion. If there was no God and no religion, the world would not be a better place, and 20,000 children would still die each day of the year from hunger.

And according to Islam there is no God but Allah, so does your claim pertain to him?


No religion would be great as it would mean humans could face up to life and responsibility and it would encourage learning :spin:

[letmein]

I apologise for the delay in responding Matt, but I got drawn in elsewhere on here – unfortunately. This is going to be a long post , but could have been ten times longer because of the sheer weight of evidence that Obama is a Muslim. I have 28 pages on Obama and this very subject in my own files alone which are the result of researching and cross referencing internet articles, newspaper articles, and excerpts from 2 books (I’m currently writing a thriller novel ) I have found the usual articles which rebut some of which I post here, but after extensive past and recent cross checking, I'm inclined to believe this which I post.

Can I start with the name which is Obama’s:

HUSSEIN

This strictly Muslim name is reputedly unheard of prior to first being used by the prophet Muhammad when he named his grandson Husayn ibn Ali after claiming that he had been commanded to do so by the archangel Gabriel.

BACKGROUND
1) Obama was born a Muslim because his real father, Barack Obama Sr. was Muslim. So Obama was raised as a Muslim.

2)When Obama’s mother divorced Obama Sr, She married another Muslim - Lolo Soetoro. So Obama continued to be raised as a Muslim:

3) Obama's own half-sister, Maya Soetoro-Ng states: "My whole family was Muslim, and most of the people I knew were Muslim."

4) In 1967 Obama’s family relocated to the predominantly Muslim country of Indonesia and Obama's first school was ‘Francis of Assisi’ a Catholic School which catered for other Faiths. Documents show that each student had to choose one of five state-sanctioned religions when registering – Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Catholic or Protestant. Barack Hussein Obama – now using the name Barry Soetoro – registered his faith as Muslim.

5)A former Indonesian classmate of Obama’s - Rony Amir - is on record as stating that; “All the relatives of Barry's (Obama’s alias) father were very devout Muslims" and describes Obama as "previously quite religious in Islam."

6) Obama’s second school in Indonesia was the ‘Besuki’ Public School in Jakarta, where ‘Barry’ also registered his faith as Muslim.

7) Teachers and former classmates confirm that he enrolled as a Muslim.

8) As a Muslim pupil, Obama studied the Quran two hours every week.

9) In his autobiography, ‘Dreams of My Father’, Obama relates how he got into trouble for clowning around during “Koranic studies” confirming that he was a Muslim.

10) Nicholas D. Kristof of ‘The New York Times’ reports that Obama "recalled the opening lines of the Arabic call to prayer, reciting them him with a “first-rate accent."

11) Obama's half-sister recalled that the family (including Obama) attended the mosque "for big communal events.

12) Obama’s childhood friends state that "Obama sometimes went to Friday prayers at the local mosque."

13) Not only is it on record that "Obama occasionally followed his stepfather to the mosque for Friday prayers." Zulfin Adi – an Indonesian Muslim friend of Obama’s states that Obama "was Muslim. He went to the mosque. I remember him wearing a sarong"

14) Indeed Matt, Obama himself has stated that while living in Indonesia, a Muslim country, he "didn't practice (Islam)" a statement which though designed to rebut claims that he is a Muslim, actually confirms that he is – practicing or not. (The claim that he is non-practicing is a lie anyway).

15) When questioned, Obama’s PR spokesperson went on record as saying that he couldn’t answer why Obama was listed as a Muslim at both his Indonesian schools and emphasised: . "Senator Obama has never been a Muslim."

16) However, when further pressed less than a couple of months later, the Obama PR Office “retreated from that absolute statement and instead issued a more nuanced one: "Obama has never been a practicing Muslim." Again, this distinction actually confirms that he is a Muslim.

Matt, the evidence that Obama was born and raised a Muslim is irrefutable in my opinion, but it is the depths of his deceit in trying to conceal this fact, and the hypocrisy of cloaking his Islamic faith under Christianity which I find highly suspect and very sinister.

So let’s see what Obama himself says about his faith and see if it tallies with the truth above.

Here’s Barack Hussein Obama’s declarations prior to securing the presidency, where he denies being a Muslim, denies ever having been a Muslim, and repeatedly stresses what a devout Christian he is:

Lie No 1) Barak Obama December 2007:
"I've always been a Christian......... The only connection I've had to Islam is that my grandfather on my father's side came from that country [Kenya]. But I've never practiced Islam."

Lie No 2)Barak Obama February 2008:
"I have never been a Muslim. … other than my name and the fact that I lived in a populous Muslim country for 4 years when I was a child [Indonesia, 1967-71] I have very little connection to the Islamic religion."

Lie No 3) 12th Nov 2008 - Obama’s Campaign Website when he was running for the presidency:
"Barack Obama Is Not and Has Never Been a Muslim," and: "Obama never prayed in a mosque. He has never been a Muslim, was not raised a Muslim, and is a committed Christian."

Lie No 4) 22nd Dec 2008 – When explaining his Muslim heritage: “My father was from Kenya, and a lot of people in his village were Muslim. He didn't practice Islam. Truth is he wasn't very religious. He met my mother. My mother was a Christian from Kansas, and they married and then divorced. I was raised by my mother. So, I've always been a Christian. The only connection I've had to Islam is that my grandfather on my father's side came from that country. But I've never practiced Islam. … For a while, I lived in Indonesia because my mother was teaching there. And that's a Muslim country. And I went to school. But I didn't practice.”

Now let’s just study the devout Christian image he projected during his 2008 Presidential Campaign as in this below taken from just one of his campaign leaflets:

“Guided by his Christian faith, Barack Obama is the leader we can trust....”

“Barak Obama: Committed Christian”

“I believe in the power of prayer”

“We do what we do because God is with us....

"When Moses was first called to lead his people to the promised land, he said, “I don’t think I can do it Lord, I don’t feel brave and courageous”. The Lord said, “I will be with you, I’ll show you what to do”

And then let’s weigh the above against his statements and actions concerning Christianity, since:

1) Prior to giving a televised speech from the ‘Gaston Hall’ in the Georgetown University, the White House requested the university to “cover over” a monogram symbolizing Jesus Christ’s name which would be in camera shot behind the President. “The Gold ‘IHS’ monogram inscribed on a pediment in the hall was covered over by a piece of black-painted plywood, and remained covered over the next day”.

Quotes By Barack Obama About Christianity and the Bible.

2) “Whatever we once were, we are no longer a Christian nation”

3) “We do not consider ourselves a Christian nation.”

4) “Which passages of scripture should guide our public policy? Should we go with Leviticus, which suggests slavery is OK and that eating shellfish is an abomination? Or we could go with Deuteronomy, which suggests stoning your child if he strays from the faith?”

5) “Even those who claim the Bible’s inerrancy make distinctions between Scriptural edicts, sensing that some passages – the Ten Commandments, say, or a belief in Christ’s divinity – are central to Christian faith, while others are more culturally specific and may be modified to accommodate modern life.”

6) “If all it took was someone proclaiming I believe Jesus Christ and that he died for my sins, and that was all there was to it, people wouldn’t have to keep coming to church, would they.”

And this last proves Obama’s lies that his mother (who was a ‘secular humanist) was a Christian and so he was “raised as a Christian” –

7) “I’ve said this before, and I know this raises questions in the minds of some evangelicals. I do not believe that my mother, who never formally embraced Christianity as far as I know … I do not believe she went to hell.”

OBAMA AND ISLAM
1) Obama is on record as stating that:” The Muslim call to prayer is one of the prettiest sounds on Earth at sunset and recited the opening lines; ‘Allah is supreme.... I witness that there is no God but Allah’ in a perfect Arabic accent.

2) Obama personally raised nearly $1 million dollars and campaigned for a Kenyan President who had a written agreement with Islamic leaders pledging to convert Kenya to an Islamic State which bans Christianity.

3) Obama stated that the autobiography of infamous black Muslim activist Malcolm X “inspired him in his youth”.

4) Obama visited several mosques whilst on a political trip to Kenya but did not visit any of the many churches or even the National Temple.

5) Obama enjoyed a bigger increase in voter support in 2008 (compared to 2004) by Muslims than by any other voting group, including blacks; "Muslim turnout in the U.S. elections reached 95 percent, the highest Muslim turnout in U.S. history."

6) Obama rarely attends church or has church services in the White House and when ‘President-elect’ he never attended [Sunday] church services – a departure from the example of his two immediate predecessors.

7) At the G-20 summit in April 2009, Obama bowed deeply to Saudi King Abdullah, a Muslim who is also the 'Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques'. This caused an outrage because no other US President in history had ever displayed such obsequious deference to any foreign official, and Obama himself has never bowed to any other Royal Leaders. Obama later stated, "We have to change our behavior in showing the Muslim world greater respect".

8) In 2006, Obama gave an irreverent speech about using the Bible in public policy. “It resembled a stand-up comedy act, with Obama making fun of the books of the Torah, The Ten Commandments and The Sermon on The Mount, and other key Biblical passages.

9) On September 25, 2012, in his address to The United Nations General Assembly, Obama stated that: "The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam"

10) Obama's spiritual mentor of 20 years, Rev. J. Wright explained in an interview "that Barack Obama was steeped in Islam when he first met him," and said that he “made it comfortable” for Obama to accept Christianity without having renounce his Islamic background.” (something Obama was concerned about).

11) Obama selected Chuck Hagel – a former Republican senator “most sympathetic to Muslim positions in the Middle East” - to be Secretary of Defense despite intense objections by both political parties. The ‘Iranian State Press’ approved of his choice.

12) During a televised interview with George Stephanopoulos, whilst discussing whether John McCain's campaign has suggested that Obama is not a Christian, Obama committed a huge ‘faux pas’ when he said that:“John McCain had not talked about my Muslim faith” .Stephanopoulos, aware of this Freudian slip' and the potential outrage, then suggested that Obama change his answer to refer instead to "Christian faith."

13) In a recent speech on Islamic terrorism, Obama stated that: “ISIL is not 'Islamic.' No religion condones the killing of innocents, and the vast majority of ISIL's victims have been Muslim. And ISIL is certainly not a state; it was formerly al Qaeda's affiliate in Iraq and has taken advantage of sectarian strife and Syria's civil war to gain territory on both sides of the Iraq-Syrian border. It is recognized by no government nor by the people it subjugates."

14) “We will convey our deep appreciation for the Islamic faith, which has done so much over the centuries to shape the world — including in my own country.”

15)“As a student of history, I also know civilisation’s debt to Islam.

16) “Islam has always been part of America”

17) “We will encourage more Americans to study in Muslim communities”.

18) “I made clear that America is not – and never will be – at war with Islam.”

19)“Islam is not part of the problem in combating violent extremism – it is an important part of promoting peace.”

20) “Throughout history, Islam has demonstrated through words and deeds the possibilities of religious tolerance and racial equality.” (His he for real???)

22)“Ramadan is a celebration of a faith known for great diversity and racial equality.

23) The Holy Koran tells us, ‘O mankind! We have created you male and a female; and we have made you into nations and tribes so that you may know one another.’”

24)“I look forward to hosting an after dinner celebrating Ramadan here at the White House later this week, and wish you a blessed month.”

25)“That experience guides my conviction that partnership between America and Islam must be based on what Islam is, not what it isn’t. And I consider it part of my responsibility as president of the United States to fight against negative stereotypes of Islam wherever they appear.”

Transcript: President Obama's ISIS speech
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-HqHSkYG-Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CseUglupmZk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tKMiRxnRN4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaKeWwE0t7E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Yro63c7B7A

Snopes is not your friend, hon.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp

You copied and pasted most of this trash from Conservapedia, which is a far-Right Christian fundamentalist web site:

http://www.conservapedia.com/Obama's_Religion

Rational Wiki sums them up in a frank and funny way:

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Conservapedia

You should also research Conservapedia's so-called sources. Stop being lazy.

[Crimson Dynamo]

:hehe:

[letmein]

Yes the President
is in his own world
upsetting the Americans
on CNBC , CNN America , CBS News
and FoxNewsHD

Uh, no, but thanks for playing. :wavey:

[Johnnyuk123]

The christian god of the bible killed around 25 million in his book and of course happily watches 20,000 children die each day of the year from hunger

around 7.3 million a year or 730 million in the last 100 years

hi again kirk

And let's not forget that God who created everything but yet you don't hear those of faith talking about their god creating....
Rapists
murderers
cancer etc...

Why would a god or any god for that matter create such things?????
Additionally the world is flat and a man can survive 3 days at the bottom of the ocean inside a whale. Another man can part the ocean apparently.You can feed 5000 with only 5 fish too.
Talking snakes are also real. It's in the bible so it must be true?
Santa must be true too and we all know it ain't.:joker::joker::joker:

[Johnnyuk123]

If you think about it. Lets say that God created everything. In such a high position of authority why did he not make every human being and animal immortal. He had that option apparently but decided against it.:joker:

[Kyle]

If you think about it. Lets say that God created everything. In such a high position of authority why did he not make every human being and animal immortal. He had that option apparently but decided against it.:joker:

Er excuse me, we were meant to be immortal before Eve decided to be a prat and eat from the tree of knowledge. So don't blame God for us not being immortal, blame those sneaky split arses :nono:

1 Timothy 2:14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

[kirklancaster]

Snopes is not your friend, hon.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp

You copied and pasted most of this trash from Conservapedia, which is a far-Right Christian fundamentalist web site:

http://www.conservapedia.com/Obama's_Religion

Rational Wiki sums them up in a frank and funny way:

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Conservapedia

You should also research Conservapedia's so-called sources. Stop being lazy.

What???? Why are you acting as though you've just made the expose of the century. I already stated; "I have 28 pages on Obama and this very subject in my own files alone which are the result of researching and cross referencing internet articles, newspaper articles, and excerpts from 2 books (I’m currently writing a thriller novel ) I have found the usual articles which rebut some of which I post here, but after extensive past and recent cross checking, I'm inclined to believe this which I post.

Where do you learn information from? Serious question, and how would you post collated information from several different sources? When it comes to lists, apart from editing out any irrelevant parts, why would anyone try to rewrite them in their entirety? There are only so many words one can use.

Where is this lazy? Posting links is lazy.

I have read dozens of articles on this, and cross checked what I posted. I also stated that I have read the usual rebuttal articles too, but after evaluating what I'd read and watched, I believe what I've posted.

I tried to post links to the YouTube vids I watched, and I suppose you think they're fake as well? So why don't you post what you regard as the truth then, if you consider the information in my post is 'crap'?

Are you saying Obama wasn't and isn't a Muslim? Are you saying he didn't repeatedly lie about his Muslim faith and go to great lengths to conceal it? Are you saying that knowledge gleaned from a 'Right Wing Christian Website' is invalid just because it's a 'Right Wing Christian Website'?

I'd be really interested in seeing your evidence which rebuts the information which you dismiss as crap, so please post. I'd have more respect if you did, rather than you merely diving in to discredit without offering your version of the 'truth' - with corroboration.

In fact, why don't you take the lists in my post and address each point individually, stating why they're 'crap' and rebutting them with what you maintain is the truth?

I call sniping lazy - not the researching and collating of information from multiple sources.

[kirklancaster]

And let's not forget that God who created everything but yet you don't hear those of faith talking about their god creating....
Rapists
murderers
cancer etc...

Why would a god or any god for that matter create such things?????
Additionally the world is flat and a man can survive 3 days at the bottom of the ocean inside a whale. Another man can part the ocean apparently.You can feed 5000 with only 5 fish too.
Talking snakes are also real. It's in the bible so it must be true?
Santa must be true too and we all know it ain't.:joker::joker::joker:

You are merely trotting out the same old cliched rubbish which many others have done before you and though there are very serious answers to your questions, the mocking manner of your post tells me that investing the time and effort in answering you would not be worth the result.

I am disappointed Johnny.

[Johnnyuk123]

yet you you appear to believe in clairvocancy with your absurd crystal ball predictions....so without the peaceful wondrous loving forgiving words of wisdom of Jesus the world will somehow be more peaceful , yeah right? so no one will fight over land power wealth oil control etc etc etc get a grip youre in fantasy land mate

So you have met Jesus in person?

[Johnnyuk123]

You are merely trotting out the same old cliched rubbish which many others have done before you and though there are very serious answers to your questions, the mocking manner of your post tells me that investing the time and effort in answering you would not be worth the result.

I am disappointed Johnny.

Yet you responded? Explain?

[Johnnyuk123]

Er excuse me, we were meant to be immortal before Eve decided to be a prat and eat from the tree of knowledge. So don't blame God for us not being immortal, blame those sneaky split arses :nono:

1 Timothy 2:14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

Do you have a link to eve if so please post it?

[Johnnyuk123]

Follow it up by a link showing that the world is actually flat?

[Kyle]

Do you have a link to eve if so please post it?

I'm an atheist pal I was just looking to wind a few women up tonight but nobody bit :laugh:

[GiRTh]

Are people in this thread seriously trying to make the claim that Christianity is good and Islam is evil? I think there are very few people on this planet who are qualified to make such an argument. The delusion is very high if forum members on a Big Brother forum seriously think they can make that claim. Good luck Ladies and gentlemen but I don't think any of you know anywhere near enough to be having this discussion.

[GiRTh]

is that a serious reply? wow how fickleI refer you to my recent post.

[the truth]

Are people in this thread seriously trying to make the claim that Christianity is good and Islam is evil? I think there are very few people on this planet who are qualified to make such an argument. The delusion is very high if forum members on a Big Brother forum seriously think they can make that claim. Good luck Ladies and gentlemen but I don't think any of you know anywhere near enough to be having this discussion.

yes I am saying Christianity is a great thing and Islam is not

[kirklancaster]

I'm an atheist pal I was just looking to wind a few women up tonight but nobody bit :laugh:

:laugh:

[kirklancaster]

Perfect example of what I'm talking about. Hysterical ignorant nonsense.

I don't agree at all. Dezzy. Here is his post in its entirety:

Originally Posted by the truth:
"complete made up lies..........its nothing to do with the media.......the truth is radical islam is blowing innocent people up across the globe in random acts of horrific terrorism..........you actually dare to belittle the evil they do and pass it off as the fault of the media or other religions...we see through your lies. its radical islam and it needs to be targetted"

There is no "hysterics" here - just stating of facts: There is no ignorance - but quite the reverse; knowledgeable and valid comment.There is no nonsense - only truth:

A) Radical Islamics are blowing up and murdering innocent people across the globe with sickening frequency.

B) If the above is true - which it irrefutably is - then the media can only report it.

C) He is careful to specify 'Radical' Islam and not all Islam, which is the truth.

D) The Media and/or other religions are not the cause of the atrocities perpetrated by these terrorists, so he is right to state as much.

I really don’t believe that we will progress matters on this thread (or any other) until some basic facts are first proposed, examined, and mutually accepted and agreed upon, so that once such facts are established, we do not all keep futilely moving around in argumentative circles.

It is, after all, banal for any of us to ask questions or make erroneous statements in a post, then have those questions legitimately answered or such misconceptions corrected in a response (with corroboration) only for the original poster to then ignore the response and pose the same questions and make the same erroneous statements in a subsequent post.

I am not advocating that anyone should defer to anyone else’s views, even if such views are more plausible and backed up by the superior evidence, but what I am saying, is that it would aid proper debate if we all did address points made in counter responses – even if at the end of any debate we just agree to amicably disagree.

For example; no one is stating that all Islam is responsible for these atrocities, or that the majority of peace-loving, moderate Muslims are, only that Islamac Fundamentalist Terrorists are. Yet post after post works from a false premise that people are blaming all Islam or all peace-loving moderate Muslims.

It gets us nowhere.

[Alf]

Are people in this thread seriously trying to make the claim that Christianity is good and Islam is evil? I think there are very few people on this planet who are qualified to make such an argument. The delusion is very high if forum members on a Big Brother forum seriously think they can make that claim. Good luck Ladies and gentlemen but I don't think any of you know anywhere near enough to be having this discussion.
Christianity preaches to love thy neighbour and welcome everybody, Islam preaches to surrender to God and you will live in paradise.

[Nedusa]

Most peaceful law-abiding Muslims especially if they live in the West, need to study their faith a bit more and ask themselves some serious questions about what their religion actually espouses.

It promotes intolerance of other religions this resulting in division,exclusion and disconnectivity which is not the normal human state.

It demands obediance upon pain of punishment and possibly death. This is not enlightening but rather oppressive and bullying/controlling.

It promotes conversion of other faiths to Islam and considers Non Muslims as lesser people or worse. This is arrogant, immoral and confrontational.

It considers it the duty of all Muslims to promote the Muslim agenda even if they live in a Non Muslim land. This is treasonable and highly divisive.

All of the above applies to ALL Muslims these are the central tenets of their "peaceful" faith which as you can see is not peaceful at all.

Now I have deliberately tried to avoid this post being construed as Hate speech and therefore removed by the Mods. I want to have a sensible debate about these issues and try and see if there is room for reform to move away from these unfortunate religious principles which in a Christian Country are a red rag to a bull.

[kirklancaster]

Most peaceful law-abiding Muslims especially if they live in the West, need to study their faith a bit more and ask themselves some serious questions about what their religion actually espouses.

It promotes intolerance of other religions this resulting in division,exclusion and disconnectivity which is not the normal human state.

It demands obediance upon pain of punishment and possibly death. This is not enlightening but rather oppressive and bullying/controlling.

It promotes conversion of other faiths to Islam and considers Non Muslims as lesser people or worse. This is arrogant, immoral and confrontational.

It considers it the duty of all Muslims to promote the Muslim agenda even if they live in a Non Muslim land. This is treasonable and highly divisive.

All of the above applies to ALL Muslims these are the central tenets of their "peaceful" faith which as you can see is not peaceful at all.

Now I have deliberately tried to avoid this post being construed as Hate speech and therefore removed by the Mods. I want to have a sensible debate about these issues and try and see if there is room for reform to move away from these unfortunate religious principles which in a Christian Country are a red rag to a bull.

:worship::worship::worship: You have excelled yourself. (if only we all could debate this sensibly without all the usual overly defensive, overly aggressive, irrational lashback)

[Kizzy]

II42IpzskRI

[Crimson Dynamo]

24% of uk muslins agree with paris attack


http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31293196

[kirklancaster]

24% of uk muslins agree with paris attack


http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31293196

This is very illuminating and would seem to destroy a fair few arguments that all Muslims are peace loving and anti-terrorist. Thank you LT.

[kirklancaster]

II42IpzskRI

She is beautiful and her words are welcome and very, very moving, but one Muslim denouncing Islamic terrorism does not rebut Nedusa's contentions or equate to LT's post above which states that a massive 24% of UK Muslims AGREE with the Paris atrocities.

To put it into perspective, that's nearly 800,000 UK domiciled Muslims whose loyalties lie more with Islamic Fundamentalist terrorists than they do with the Western democracy which welcomed them (or their parents) in and which freedoms they are enjoying.

It all kind of destroys all the erratic, irrational arguments against my posts for a start. Nuff said.

[Kizzy]

She is beautiful and her words are welcome and very, very moving, but one Muslim denouncing Islamic terrorism does not rebut Nedusa's contentions or equate to LT's post above which states that a massive 24% of UK Muslims AGREE with the Paris atrocities.

To put it into perspective, that's nearly 800,000 UK domiciled Muslims whose loyalties lie more with Islamic Fundamentalist terrorists than they do with the Western democracy which welcomed them (or their parents) in and which freedoms they are enjoying.

It all kind of destroys all the erratic, irrational arguments against my posts for a start. Nuff said.

It's hypocritical for you to in one thread berate me for disagreeing with someones view and in this one suggest that anyone who doesn't think how you, LT and nedusa think have an 'erratic, irrational argument'.

[GiRTh]

Christianity preaches to love thy neighbour and welcome everybody, Islam preaches to surrender to God and you will live in paradise.Christianity also preaches and eye for an eye then later preaches turn the other cheek. Its very contradictory.

It that all Islam teaches? I thought it taught a little bit more than that, IF that is all you've taken from Islam then you are the exact person I'm referring to in my original post.

[MTVN]

She is beautiful and her words are welcome and very, very moving, but one Muslim denouncing Islamic terrorism does not rebut Nedusa's contentions or equate to LT's post above which states that a massive 24% of UK Muslims AGREE with the Paris atrocities.

To put it into perspective, that's nearly 800,000 UK domiciled Muslims whose loyalties lie more with Islamic Fundamentalist terrorists than they do with the Western democracy which welcomed them (or their parents) in and which freedoms they are enjoying.

It all kind of destroys all the erratic, irrational arguments against my posts for a start. Nuff said.

Well in the interests of clarity the statement was "I have some sympathy for the motives behind the Charlie Hebdo attack" and 27% agreed out of a sample size of 1,000. That is different to agreeing with the attack and those 1,000 are not necessarily representative. Yes it is still worrying, but no one has said that all Muslims are anti-terrorist as you said above, that is self-evidently wrong.

That poll also found that 95% of those asked felt a loyalty to Britain. Do you not think that is welcome?

[Niamh.]

Well in the interests of clarity the statement was "I have some sympathy for the motives behind the Charlie Hebdo attack" and 27% agreed out of a sample size of 1,000. That is different to agreeing with the attack and those 1,000 are not necessarily representative. Yes it is still worrying, but no one has said that all Muslims are anti-terrorist as you said above, that is self-evidently wrong.

That poll also found that 95% of those asked felt a loyalty to Britain. Do you not think that is welcome?

Also, I think it would depend on how you interpret the question, "Do you have some sympathy behind the motives" a Muslim person could take to mean, that they agree that the cartoons were offensive to them but not necessarily mean they agree with the action of "revenge" carried out.

I think if the question was more like "Do you agree that the Charlie Hebdo attack was not an extreme reaction to the cartoon" or something like that the number may have been lower

[Nedusa]

24% of uk muslins agree with paris attack


http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31293196

If true this is a disgraceful statistic, I rather suspected the majority of Muslims agree in principal to the ideals behind the attack if not the murderous methods employed.

But to think that a quarter of UK Muslims agree with the attacks themselves and the resulting violent assassination of these journalists is almost too much to believe.

I can't imagine however if questioned a 1/4 of UK Muslims saying such a thing so perhaps I should take this statistic with a large pinch of salt.

[kirklancaster]

It's hypocritical for you to in one thread berate me for disagreeing with someones view and in this one suggest that anyone who doesn't think how you, LT and nedusa think have an 'erratic, irrational argument'.

Oh dear; I've never ever berated anyone for disagreeing with anyone's viewpoint - can you please expound so that I can apologise if I have?

Also, I am not suggesting that anyone who disagrees with me, LT and Nedusa are "erratic" and irrational" at all, or that all their arguments are, and you are misinterpreting what I said. When I said:

"It all kind of destroys all the erratic, irrational arguments against my posts for a start. Nuff said."

I was talking about specific arguments as being irrational (in my opinion) in certain posts which have criticised my posts or opposed the points I've made in them, not all posts in general. "All the erratic, irrational arguments" - not "all arguments".

I am opinionated, and outspoken, but I totally believe in what I write, and I do not ever write to 'try to be clever', or to merely elicit applause or admiration (in fact I have lost admirers because of my views) I write because I am driven, and there are many things which I know and have experienced which have shaped my views, but which I cannot post on an open forum because it may endanger my family.

I welcome any honest and reasoned debate or discussion.

[kirklancaster]

Well in the interests of clarity the statement was "I have some sympathy for the motives behind the Charlie Hebdo attack" and 27% agreed out of a sample size of 1,000. That is different to agreeing with the attack and those 1,000 are not necessarily representative. Yes it is still worrying, but no one has said that all Muslims are anti-terrorist as you said above, that is self-evidently wrong.

That poll also found that 95% of those asked felt a loyalty to Britain. Do you not think that is welcome?

Of course I do think that it's welcome that 95% of those questioned felt a loyalty to Britain, I wish it was 100%.

Again, I can only take surveys at face value and not try to second guess how truly representative of the UK Muslim population those surveyed really were, or to what degree their self-confessed sympathy for the motives behind the Paris murders were.

My own true and extensive personal experience is that the survey at face value actually reflects the attitudes to IS of a lot of domiciled UK Muslims.

Finally, a lot of posts on here have implied and/or insinuated that all UK Muslims are anti-terrorist, and I could search and reproduce such posts if I had to but I see no reason to.

[Crimson Dynamo]

"I have some sympathy for the motives behind the Charlie Hebdo attack"

what kind of sick human would even voice this to a friend never mind an actual survey?


it beggars belief

[Niamh.]

"I have some sympathy for the motives behind the Charlie Hebdo attack"

what kind of sick human would even voice this to a friend never mind an actual survey?


it beggars belief

It's a question designed to obscure the vote. Asking about the "motive" rather then just the attack itself is going to make people give a different answer. You can agree that Muslims might be offended without agreeing with what they actually did in response to it

[Crimson Dynamo]

I wish they had just asked them

Do you know that all that prophet and god stuff you were brainwashed with by your parents and elders is utter bollocks?

no?

well newsflash it is and you have been murmuring under your breath to no one

[Livia]

I wish they had just asked them

Do you know that all that prophet and god stuff you were brainwashed with by your parents and elders is utter bollocks?

no?

well newsflash it is and you have been murmuring under your breath to no one

Shut up, Trumpet, you heathen.

[JoshBB]

24% of uk muslins agree with paris attack


http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31293196

And what about the 76% who don't? Are you going to ignore them?

[Crimson Dynamo]

And what about the 76% who don't? Are you going to ignore them?

I was hoping people could master subtraction

but as the figure should have been 100 the story is not about 76% now is it?

[arista]

If true this is a disgraceful statistic, I rather suspected the majority of Muslims agree in principal to the ideals behind the attack if not the murderous methods employed.

But to think that a quarter of UK Muslims agree with the attacks themselves and the resulting violent assassination of these journalists is almost too much to believe.

I can't imagine however if questioned a 1/4 of UK Muslims saying such a thing so perhaps I should take this statistic with a large pinch of salt.



more like bloody typical


Sign Of The Times

[Cherie]

I would like to throw this thread under a bus

[Kizzy]

Oh dear; I've never ever berated anyone for disagreeing with anyone's viewpoint - can you please expound so that I can apologise if I have?

Also, I am not suggesting that anyone who disagrees with me, LT and Nedusa are "erratic" and irrational" at all, or that all their arguments are, and you are misinterpreting what I said. When I said:

"It all kind of destroys all the erratic, irrational arguments against my posts for a start. Nuff said."

I was talking about specific arguments as being irrational (in my opinion) in certain posts which have criticised my posts or opposed the points I've made in them, not all posts in general. "All the erratic, irrational arguments" - not "all arguments".

I am opinionated, and outspoken, but I totally believe in what I write, and I do not ever write to 'try to be clever', or to merely elicit applause or admiration (in fact I have lost admirers because of my views) I write because I am driven, and there are many things which I know and have experienced which have shaped my views, but which I cannot post on an open forum because it may endanger my family.

I welcome any honest and reasoned debate or discussion.

Yes, yes you have it's a running theme throughout your posts to make derogatory comments relating to posters whose take doesn't mirror your viewpoint.
The fact one small study was lauded as the opinion of 800,000 Muslims is not outspoken ... it's fallacious.

[kirklancaster]

Yes, yes you have it's a running theme throughout your posts to make derogatory comments relating to posters whose take doesn't mirror your viewpoint.
The fact one small study was lauded as the opinion of 800,000 Muslims is not outspoken ... it's fallacious.

:joker:You say what you want and think what you want. You are an expert at accusing others of your own sins. :smug:

I know the difference between arguing for arguing's sake and debating and discussing. :smug:

Your opinion on the survey is your opinion and mine is mine, so what else is there to say dear little argumentative one? :idc:

Except Bye. :wavey:

[Kizzy]

:joker:You say what you want and think what you want. You are an expert at accusing others of your own sins. :smug:

I know the difference between arguing for arguing's sake and debating and discussing. :smug:

Your opinion on the survey is your opinion and mine is mine, so what else is there to say dear little argumentative one? :idc:

Except Bye. :wavey:

I'll ignore the patronising comments and the smileys and just add you stated that as fact... and it isn't.

[kirklancaster]

I'll ignore the patronising comments and the smileys and just add you stated that as fact... and it isn't.

I know; instead of keep posting comments why don't we play a little game of TRUTH?

It's really simple: You make an accusatory statement about me or my post, like this one:

Originally Posted by Kizzy
"It's hypocritical for you to in one thread berate me for disagreeing with someones view"

Then I post a response to it, like this one:

"Oh dear; I've never ever berated anyone for disagreeing with anyone's viewpoint - can you please expound so that I can apologise if I have?"


Then you ignore my response and do not expound with any examples of where I have "berated" you for "disagreeing with someone's view" - simply because YOU KNOW THERE ARE NONE and do not want to be exposed as making false claims - again.

So then, you just SKIRT THE ISSUE and simply post another load of twaddle, like this:

Originally Posted by Kizzy
"Yes, yes you have it's a running theme throughout your posts to make derogatory comments relating to posters whose take doesn't mirror your viewpoint."

So now, I then challenge you to provide PROOF which corroborates and justifies your outrageous claims above -- But I don't hold my breath waiting for you to do so, but instead prime myself for the next response from you which SKIRTS THIS CHALLENGE and makes yet another unjustified, groundless claim. Strictly based on past experience with you, you understand?

Aah well.... Momma always said; tedious is as tedious does.

Bye Again. :wavey:

[Kizzy]

I know; instead of keep posting comments why don't we play a little game of TRUTH?

It's really simple: You make an accusatory statement about me or my post, like this one:

Originally Posted by Kizzy
"It's hypocritical for you to in one thread berate me for disagreeing with someones view"

Then I post a response to it, like this one:

"Oh dear; I've never ever berated anyone for disagreeing with anyone's viewpoint - can you please expound so that I can apologise if I have?"


Then you ignore my response and do not expound with any examples of where I have "berated" you for "disagreeing with someone's view" - simply because YOU KNOW THERE ARE NONE and do not want to be exposed as making false claims - again.

So then, you just SKIRT THE ISSUE and simply post another load of twaddle, like this:

Originally Posted by Kizzy
"Yes, yes you have it's a running theme throughout your posts to make derogatory comments relating to posters whose take doesn't mirror your viewpoint."

So now, I then challenge you to provide PROOF which corroborates and justifies your outrageous claims above -- But I don 't hold my breath waiting for you to do so, but instead prime myself for the next response from you which SKIRTS THIS CHALLENGE and makes yet another unjustified, groundless claim. Strictly based on past experience with you, you understand?

Aah well.... Momma always said; tedious is as tedious does.

Bye Again. :wavey:

It was another thread in discussion today, it has no bearing on this thread so I didn't wish to discuss it here.