Homosexuality: Are you REALLY born gay?

[Ashley.]

I somewhat disagree with people who say that you're "born" gay. While this is the case for some people, I think some people can "develop" homosexuality in their later life and begin to show an interest for the same gender over a certain period of time.

What are your thoughts on this?

[Livia]

"Born with it"?

It's not a disease.

[Daniel.]

I'm gay and I didn't choose it. from as young as I remember I've been attracted to guys and it's been out of my control

100% natural, any other suggestions are stupid imo

[Niamh.]

I'm not gay so I can't really have an opinion based on anything other than what I hear gay people say and the very big majority believe that they were born gay so I'm happy to take their word for it. Does it really matter that much either way anyhow?

[Crimson Dynamo]

dominant mother and no father figure?

i dont think you are born with it as such but it cant be just how you are raised and by who due to the numbers and the fact that it was the same 1000 years ago etc

its just a thing that you have 100 babies 5 will end up being a a gay and ending up on Tibb

[LukeB]

I think it develops as you get older

[Ashley.]

"Born with it"?

It's not a disease.

You were the first to mention that word. I wasn't thinking about diseases when I wrote this.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I'm not gay so I can't really have an opinion based on anything other than what I hear gay people say and the very big majority believe that they were born gay so I'm happy to take their word for it. Does it really matter that much either way anyhow?

of course its an interesting thing and it leads into other areas like the gay voice/accent debacle

[Daniel.]

I was raised by a lad like football loving dad and my uncles and cousins are boxers aswell so I really just think your born with it, I defo had a father figure

[Tom4784]

Nobody chooses their sexuality. You're born gay, straight or somewhere in between and nothing can impact or change that.

People coming out later in life will not have chosen to be bi/gay, they would have just repressed that side of themselves.

[Daniel.]

of course its an interesting thing and it leads into other areas like the gay voice/accent debacle

Most gays don't have this.

[Crimson Dynamo]

You were the first to mention that word. I was thinking about diseases when I wrote this.

were you thinking along the lines of say an affliction or a curse?

[Kyle]

I'm just purely going off what happens to me but I can't change my sexuality at all no matter what enters my head so how can I expect anyone else?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Most gays don't have this.


are you quite sure?

[Daniel.]

are you quite sure?

Yes

[Livia]

You were the first to mention that word. I wasn't thinking about diseases when I wrote this.

Your phrasing could have been better.

Nobody chooses their sexuality. You're born gay, straight or somewhere in between and nothing can impact or change that.

People coming out later in life will not have chosen to be bi/gay, they would have just repressed that side of themselves.

This, surely the only answer.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I'm just purely going off what happens to me but I can't change my sexuality at all no matter what enters my head so how can I expect anyone else?

come off it kyle

£3000 quid and your ring would open like an unbolted barn door in a stiff breeze

[Crimson Dynamo]

Yes

well i have been around a bit longer than you and i would say you are wrong

:hee:

[Ashley.]

Nobody chooses their sexuality. You're born gay, straight or somewhere in between and nothing can impact or change that.

People coming out later in life will not have chosen to be bi/gay, they would have just repressed that side of themselves.

But is it possible that one can like the opposite gender all their life, and end up falling in love with someone of the same gender?

[Daniel.]

well i have been around a bit longer than you and i would say you are wrong

:hee:

Whatever, it's just the loud minority that make it known with their voice and actions. I know plenty of gay people who you would only know if they told you.

[Kyle]

come off it kyle

£3000 quid and your ring would open like an unbolted barn door in a stiff breeze

I think that would be more down to the fact I have no scruples would it not? :laugh:

[Ashley.]

Your phrasing could have been better.
Done.

This, surely the only answer.
There's no incorrect answer to this question.

[arista]

Yes its the Cells XY XX
you are born gay or bi
or normal


Sign Of The Times

[Daniel.]

Yeah, anything other than what Dezzy said is just wrong and kinda ignorant imo

[Niamh.]

Whatever, it's just the loud minority that make it known with their voice and actions. I know plenty of gay people who you would only know if they told you.

Yeah, I agree with that, I reckon that's more of a gay lifestyle choice than just being gay if you know what I mean?

[Livia]

Done.

There's no incorrect answer to this question.

If you say so, Ashley.

[Ashley.]

of course its an interesting thing and it leads into other areas like the gay voice/accent debacle

I think the "gay voice" isn't about being gay it's just about the person. Some gay people are quite flamboyant and that's when the "accent" comes out.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Whilst I do not want to connect the 2 in any way shape of form


it does beg the question are you born a paedophile?

[Livia]

Whilst I do not want to connect the 2 in any way shape of form


it does beg the question are you born a paedophile?

I think that whatever you are, it's decided long before you're born.

[Liam-]

You're born with a sexuality, you can't choose it, if someone lives their life being with one gender, then later on in life discover a fondness of the same gender, that's not them choosing to be gay, or developing gayness, it's a piece of them that has just never reached the surface before, like you could go all your life not knowing you were allergic to something, then one day discovering you are by accidentally eating something that causes a reaction, it's the same principle, it just takes some people longer to realise it than others.

[Kyle]

Ashley can you give us some examples of cases you think where people have actually changed their sexuality cos I just can't see it mate sorry.

[Ashley.]

Whilst I do not want to connect the 2 in any way shape of form

it does beg the question are you born a paedophile?

Which I suppose in itself begs the question, can you help who you are attracted to? :shrug:

[Ashley.]

Ashley can you give us some examples of cases you think where people have actually changed their sexuality cos I just can't see it mate sorry.

Beliefs do not require sources.

[Niamh.]

Whilst I do not want to connect the 2 in any way shape of form


it does beg the question are you born a paedophile?

hhhmmmm I would say not in all cases for this because you find alot of paedophiles were victims of abuse as kids themselves

[Crimson Dynamo]

Which itself begs the question, can you help who you are attracted to?

No and its a tough thing but you can chose not to abuse children just to get your rocks off

[arista]

Beliefs do not require sources.


They way you are brought up?

[Kyle]

Beliefs do not require sources.

They should at least have some empirical basis if you want to challenge others to believe it.

[Liam-]

Why would anyone choose to be gay anyway? it's not exactly a benefitial way of life

[Crimson Dynamo]

hhhmmmm I would say not in all cases for this because you find alot of paedophiles were victims of abuse as kids themselves

Or it could be that lots more people than we realise have these attractions but if you are abused you are far more likely to act on them?

:think:


ie it does not stimulate feelings but merely makes you more likely to act on them

[Ashley.]

They should at least have some empirical basis if you want to challenge others to believe it.

I wasn't challenging anyone I just wanted to know what everyone else thought lmao

[Crimson Dynamo]

Why would anyone choose to be gay anyway? it's not exactly a benefitial way of life

its getting better :spin:

[Niamh.]

Or it could be that lots more people than we realise have these attractions but if you are abused you are far more likely to act on them?

:think:


ie it does not stimulate feelings but merely makes you more likely to act on them

I don't believe that no. I think that if you're abused as a kid it gives you a warped idea of what sex is and should be like

[Kyle]

I wasn't challenging anyone I just wanted to know what everyone else thought lmao

Well ok then can you tell us how you have come to the conclusion yourself that you believe people can change their sexuality?

I'm not looking for an argument btw I am genuinely intrigued that is all.

[Cherie]

It's an interesting question, personally I believe people are born gay, but as to whether people are born evil or whether their life experience shape them is not as clear cut to me

[Livia]

Why would anyone choose to be gay anyway? it's not exactly a benefitial way of life

My gay friend, who's really happy and getting married next year, once said to me if he'd been able to choose when he was younger, no way would he have chosen to be gay. He'd have chosen to be straight and have a wife and kids.

[Northern Monkey]

I'm not a scientist or gay so i really would'nt like to say.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I'm not a scientist or gay so i really would'nt like to say.

you dont have to be alex fergusson or david beckham to have an opinion on man u

[Liam-]

My gay friend, who's really happy and getting married next year, once said to me if he'd been able to choose when he was younger, no way would he have chosen to be gay. He'd have chosen to be straight and have a wife and kids.

That's pretty common I think, I know that if I had a choice I'd have chosen to be straight as well, I'm happy being gay, but life would have been way more easy if I wasn't, the notion that someone can choose their sexuality is ludicrous to me.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I would think just about all parents would want their kids straight just because most folks are and its easier


(and i dont want to hear "i just want them healthy and happy yada yada yada)


that is not to say when they are gay they stop loving them, in fact i would imagine when they do find out most love them even more - i know i would

[Tom4784]

But is it possible that one can like the opposite gender all their life, and end up falling in love with someone of the same gender?

I'd say that they were bisexual with a massive preference towards the opposite gender or that they repressed their bi/gay side.

Sexuality is not something that can change. No one would choose to be gay or bi if it was a choice, life is harder for anyone who isn't straight.

[Niamh.]

I would think just about all parents would want their kids straight just because most folks are and its easier


(and i dont want to hear "i just want them healthy and happy yada yada yada)


that is not to say when they are gay they stop loving them, in fact i would imagine when they do find out most love them even more - i know i would

:laugh: I love my son because he's my son not because he's straight or gay or whatever

[Northern Monkey]

I honestly think it's just natures way of adapting and keeping the population down.However that's just an opinion.I'm no biologist.

[Daniel.]

I'm another who until a couple of years ago would have jumped at the chance of being able to turn straight...

[Will.]

I think so yes, I knew from about 9 I fancied Boys and girls.

I'm more attractive to boys physically but I develop a better relationship/love for a girl more if that makes sense, I feel more likely to have a long term relationship with a woman.

I wouldn't say I'm a typical bi/gay guy, I dress a little quirky and different but I don't have the other so called 'gay features'.

I went to an all boys school which I don't think helped with my sexuality.

I wouldn't want to be straight, I love being bisexual, I'm happy with who I am if I'm being really honest.

I think you are born gay/bi/lesbian/asexual/pansexual etc.

[Ashley.]

Well ok then can you tell us how you have come to the conclusion yourself that you believe people can change their sexuality?

I'm not looking for an argument btw I am genuinely intrigued that is all.

I don't think it's about people "changing" their sexuality at all. I mean, let's say me for example, I have liked boys all my life so I consider myself straight. But what if I see a girl and I like the look of her? I've never shown interest towards girls in the past. So have I been straight up until this point?

Then again, I suppose it's like saying we're asexual until we first fall in love with someone. We're not actually asexual, it's just an empty jar yet to be filled.

[Jack_]

For the most part humans are born as blank slates and every inch of our personalities and mannerisms are learned, socialised behaviour. This includes sexuality, and gender.

That is not to say that you ~choose~ your sexuality, or that it can be changed, this is a common misconception people seem to have with the nurture argument. I don't believe that you are born gay (or straight or otherwise for that matter, sexuality is a spectrum that individuals fall upon somewhere in the early developmental stages of their life), but that doesn't mean I think that people choose to be gay (because like people have already said, you just wouldn't) or that you can change your sexuality, because you can't.

[Kyle]

I'm not a scientist or gay so i really would'nt like to say.

No no, I think there's a place for anyone in this conversatiOn.

If we are to put forward the proposition that a person can change their sexuality then anyone 'theoretically' could be involved.

Again like I said earlier, in no way can I change my sexuality to anything other than heterosexual so I would be inclined to assume that at the very least I'm not capable of changing it and as so many people have said on here neither can anyone else as we know it.

[Northern Monkey]

No no, I think there's a place for anyone in this conversatiOn.

If we are to put forward the proposition that a person can change their sexuality then anyone 'theoretically' could be involved.

Again like I said earlier, in no way can I change my sexuality to anything other than heterosexual so I would be inclined to assume that at the very least I'm not capable of changing it and as so many people have said on here neither can anyone else as we know it.Well yeah.I could'nt choose to be gay i suppose.However i have no understanding of what it feels like to be gay so i can't really speak on wether gay people were born that way or if it happened during puberty or whatever.

[Kyle]

I don't think it's about people "changing" their sexuality at all. I mean, let's say me for example, I have liked boys all my life so I consider myself straight. But what if I see a girl and I like the look of her? I've never shown interest towards girls in the past. So have I been straight up until this point?

Then again, I suppose it's like saying we're asexual until we first fall in love with someone. We're not actually asexual, it's just an empty jar yet to be filled.

But would you be interested in that girl in a sexual way or by the fact that you are possibly temporarily allured to her charm/personality or the way she carries herself?

You mentioned to me the other day that you are around your early 20's so I would have hoped by now you would have noticed an attraction to females in general if you were by now but I don't know. Have you ever thought that you could be capable of being sexually attracted to a girl? What do you think of female sexual organs in general?

[Dominic]

I don't really know much about being gay in general, being a straight woman, but having a friend who always liked girls and only started being attracted to guys in high school after dating a girl makes me think some are born being gay, some aren't.

[Vanessa]

I think so, because it's not a choice for sure. It's something out of your control.

[Jack_]

I don't think it's about people "changing" their sexuality at all. I mean, let's say me for example, I have liked boys all my life so I consider myself straight. But what if I see a girl and I like the look of her? I've never shown interest towards girls in the past. So have I been straight up until this point?

Then again, I suppose it's like saying we're asexual until we first fall in love with someone. We're not actually asexual, it's just an empty jar yet to be filled.

What you're demonstrating is the fluidity of the sexuality spectrum. Nobody is 100% heterosexual or 100% homosexual, for that to be the case you would have to be repulsed at the sight of anyone of the same/opposite sex, and anyone that genuinely argues that is a liar, and most likely uncomfortable with their sexuality.

Everybody can appreciate people they think are attractive regardless of their sexuality. For instance, when straight women compliment each other saying 'you look beautiful' or 'she's gorgeous' or when straight men can acknowledge 'he's a good looking guy', 'he's handsome' etc...to see beauty like this there has be an element of attraction. It's not sexual attraction, but that's not primarily what sexuality is about. It encompasses many things.

As for your point about falling in love with someone outside of your sexuality, I would argue that's entirely possible for just about anybody, and the reason for it is what I've outlined above. Would that make you sexually attracted to them? Probably not, but again - that's not just what sexuality is about.

[Ashley.]

But would you be interested in that girl in a sexual way or by the fact that you are possibly temporarily allured to her charm/personality or the way she carries herself?

You mentioned to me the other day that you are around your early 20's so I would have hoped by now you would have noticed an attraction to females in general if you were by now but I don't know have you ever thought that you could be capable of being sexually attracted to a girl? What do you think of female sexual organs in general?

Yes, I was alluding to sexual attraction. I've always considered myself as straight because I've only liked men and not women, but I've never ruled out the possibility of being with a woman because it's not something that I've experienced and outrightly said I didn't like.a

Don't worry, I know the difference between a supermodel and an ugly if that's what you're saying.

[Niamh.]

But would you be interested in that girl in a sexual way or by the fact that you are possibly temporarily allured to her charm/personality or the way she carries herself?

You mentioned to me the other day that you are around your early 20's so I would have hoped by now you would have noticed an attraction to females in general if you were by now but I don't know. Have you ever thought that you could be capable of being sexually attracted to a girl? What do you think of female sexual organs in general?

Yeah, I get what you're saying, I can think plenty of girls are attractive but the whole "mechanics" of sex with another girl kind of repulses me a bit :laugh:

[Will.]

The best way to look at is,

ask yourself did you choose to be straight?

[LemonJam]

I don't really know much about being gay in general, being a straight woman, but having a friend who always liked girls and only started being attracted to guys in high school after dating a girl makes me think some are born being gay, some aren't.

oh he's probably gay but was repressing it like many coming of age gay people unfortunately. I've actually slept with more girls than guys and had a girlfriend for 4 years before I came out oops.

[Kyle]

Yes, I was alluding to sexual attraction. I've always considered myself as straight because I've only liked men and not women, but I've never ruled out the possibility of being with a woman because it's not something that I've experienced and outrightly said I didn't like.a

Don't worry, I know the difference between a supermodel and an ugly if that's what you're saying.

Well ultimately you are the master of your own desire. If you find yourself in a situation where you want to be in a relationship wit another woman for all the right reasons then have it by all means.

Personally I would have thought you would already know by now in some capacity whether you are sexually attracted to women or not or whether you would just be smitten by them but I'm not you. So long as you are true to yourself and you don't try to force something that you aren't that's all that matters.

[kirklancaster]

dominant mother and no father figure?

i dont think you are born with it as such but it cant be just how you are raised and by who due to the numbers and the fact that it was the same 1000 years ago etc

its just a thing that you have 100 babies 5 will end up being a a gay and ending up on Tibb

:joker::joker::joker:

[Jessica.]

I don't think anyone could choose their sexuality. I am not a lesbian, I have a boyfriend etc.. but I am not a "normal" straight person either. I think my life would have been much easier/less confusing if my sexuality worked like everyone else my age. So, I kind of agree with Jack in a way, there is always fluidity, sexuality is just constructed, people are starting to invent names for all of the extra types now, according to tumblr I would be demisexual. :joker: But I think it's not that important to label anyone. There isn't just "straight" and then everything else, there are different types of "straight" too. I think I am just rambling at this stage. Basically I think people would love to choose if they could but we can't so discussions like this are kind of pointless, I'm sure the majority of people know that you can't choose.

[Niamh.]

I don't think anyone could choose their sexuality. I am not a lesbian, I have a boyfriend etc.. but I am not a "normal" straight person either. I think my life would have been much easier/less confusing if my sexuality worked like everyone else my age. So, I kind of agree with Jack in a way, there is always fluidity, sexuality is just constructed, people are starting to invent names for all of the extra types now, according to tumblr I would be demisexual. :joker: But I think it's not that important to label anyone. There isn't just "straight" and then everything else, there are different types of "straight" too. I think I am just rambling at this stage. Basically I think people would love to choose if they could but we can't so discussions like this are kind of pointless, I'm sure the majority of people know that you can't choose.

had to google Demisexual :laugh: just sounds like you put a deeper value on sex though from reading the definition

[LukeB]

I do think you're born being gay/lesbian but you don't realise it until later on in life.. also i'm glad you changed the title because it's not an illness/disease. I'm bisexual and im happy being that way.. because being gay isn't bad at all..

[Jessica.]

had to google Demisexual :laugh: just sounds like you put a deeper value on sex though from reading the definition

Well I don't find people "hot", I don't get an instant attraction to someone just by looking at them, I've never had a "crush" on someone. I can appreciate when someone looks good but don't feel anything, it does nothing to me. It seems that when other people look at someone they find appealing they feel kind of attraction etc.. and that has never happened to me. It's very hard to explain, I have only started discovering this about myself recently. :joker:

[Niamh.]

Well I don't find people "hot", I don't get an instant attraction to someone just by looking at them, I've never had a "crush" on someone. I can appreciate when someone looks good but don't feel anything, it does nothing to me. It seems that when other people look at someone they find appealing they feel kind of attraction etc.. and that has never happened to me. It's very hard to explain, I have only started discovering this about myself recently. :joker:

I bet all that is pretty good news for your boyfriend :laugh:

[Crimson Dynamo]

mind you women are enough to turn a man to be a gay

the state of them and all the bloody problems they create


:idc:

[joeysteele]

Nobody chooses their sexuality. You're born gay, straight or somewhere in between and nothing can impact or change that.

People coming out later in life will not have chosen to be bi/gay, they would have just repressed that side of themselves.

This really, says it all for me.

[Jessica.]

I bet all that is pretty good news for your boyfriend :laugh:

:joker: He doesn't even know.

[Niamh.]

:joker: He doesn't even know.

Really? How come?

[Jessica.]

Really? How come?

I don't know, it hasn't come up, I don't really find it that important.

[Niamh.]

I don't know, it hasn't come up, I don't really find it that important.

Fair enough

[Ninastar]

It's a thing in your genes/something that happens through birth. As much as I love my ladies, I would never ever choose to be this way. It's hard.

[Ashley.]

mind you women are enough to turn a man to be a gay

the state of them and all the bloody problems they create


:idc:

You think we're cleaning in that kitchen? Nah. We're plotting.

[JoshBB]

I don't think it really matters, but I remember reading something that said your sexuality is decided and essentially 'locked in' by the age of 2.

Whether it's genetics or developed, you can't change it.

[Dollface]

I think people are born gay yes

[JoshBB]

It's a thing in your genes/something that happens through birth. As much as I love my ladies, I would never ever choose to be this way. It's hard.

Same with me liking guys.

Being straight would be 100000x easier :laugh:

Don't get me wrong.. it's not like I hate being gay, because I've learned to love myself for who I am, but life would be easier.

[Marsh.]

It's hard.

It would be if you weren't a gay.

[Ashley.]

Why do people say "a gay" it's not a species

[Ninastar]

Same with me liking guys.

Being straight would be 100000x easier :laugh:

Don't get me wrong.. it's not like I hate being gay, because I've learned to love myself for who I am, but life would be easier.

Yeah I'm in the same boat. There's times where I do hate being gay though. It happens every few months, but the rest of the time I'm happy. I think people get like that with everything though.

[arista]

Why do people say "a gay" it's not a species

http://sim02.in.com/62/49b666af8f1577c2bb59b11d009c5f45_pt_xl.jpg

[Ninastar]

It would be if you weren't a gay.

i make nipples hard so there's that!!!!

[Kyle]

"Born with it"?

It's not a disease.

Maybe she's born with it

Maybe it's Gaybelline

[Dollface]

Why do people say "a gay" it's not a species

"Born with it"?

It's not a disease.

:omgno:

[Dollface]

Maybe she's born with it

Maybe it's Gaybelline

:laugh2:

[Liam-]

Why do people say "a gay" it's not a species

A singular gay is 'a gay' a group of gays is a 'TiBB meetup'

[Crimson Dynamo]

Why do people say "a gay" it's not a species

its just a bit of gentle ribbing

thats what she said

[Crimson Dynamo]

Maybe she's born with it

Maybe it's Gaybelline

:joker:

[Marsh.]

Why do people say "a gay" it's not a species

Why do people not get sarcasm. It's not hard.

[Kate!]

Born that way

[Crimson Dynamo]

Why do people not get sarcasm. It's not hard.

:nono:

less of that bannable tone Marsh

[LukeB]

Born that way

0BsLd4Y060Q

[arista]

Theres loads of happy songs singing Life is So Gay
from 40 years back.

"Gay" has been Hijacked

[Daniel.]

I hate being gay because most gay guys tend to be ugly

[Ashley.]

Theres loads of happy songs singing Life is So Gay
from 40 years back.

"Gay" has been Hijacked

It's because homosexuals were thought to be happier than heterosexuals so everyone called them gay as in happy and then the word just stuck

...now it's used as an insult

[Jordan.]

Everyone is born gay, anything else is a choice (joy)

[Marsh.]

:nono:

less of that bannable tone Marsh

http://i.imgur.com/z9WjHPi.png

[TomC]

I think some people are misunderstanding what the OP means. They are not suggesting that you 'choose' it. They are saying that your psychology can change as you develop.

It's an interesting debate, and no one really can say for definite why and how some people are gay.

Personally, I believe being gay can develop as you grow due to external circumstances. I think having the lack of a father figure can lead to homosexuality, as controversial an opinion that may be.

I am quite inclined to think that no one is born straight or gay, and it develops in your childhood as your hormones and sex organs start to develop etc. In fact it just occurred to me, you don't really feel attraction to people properly until early puberty, so how can someone be born with a sexuality?

I just don't know.

[Ashley.]

I think some people are misunderstanding what the OP means. They are not suggesting that you 'choose' it. They are saying that your psychology can change as you develop.

It's an interesting debate, and no one really can say for definite why and how some people are gay.

Personally, I believe being gay can develop as you grow due to external circumstances. I think having the lack of a father figure can lead to homosexuality, as controversial an opinion that may be.

I am quite inclined to think that no one is born straight or gay, and it develops in your childhood as your hormones and sex organs start to develop etc. In fact it just occurred to me, you don't really feel attraction to people properly until early puberty, so how can someone be born with a sexuality?

I just don't know.

Thank you!!

I agree with your points, too!

[Marsh.]

I think some people are misunderstanding what the OP means. They are not suggesting that you 'choose' it. They are saying that your psychology can change as you develop.

It's an interesting debate, and no one really can say for definite why and how some people are gay.

Personally, I believe being gay can develop as you grow due to external circumstances. I think having the lack of a father figure can lead to homosexuality, as controversial an opinion that may be.

I am quite inclined to think that no one is born straight or gay, and it develops in your childhood as your hormones and sex organs start to develop etc. In fact it just occurred to me, you don't really feel attraction to people properly until early puberty, so how can someone be born with a sexuality?

I just don't know.

I agree. It takes a good few years for you to start feeling any sort of sexual attraction.

[Liam-]

I've had a prominent father figure all my life and I'm still a bumder

[TomC]

Thank you!!

I agree with your points, too!

Glad I interpreted you correctly!

[TomC]

I've had a prominent father figure all my life and I still turned into a bumder

I never said having no strong father figure will always make you gay and having one will always make you straight. I just meant there may be a correlation.

[Marsh.]

I've had a prominent father figure all my life and I'm still a bumder

"Can" :fist:

[Crimson Dynamo]

I hate being gay because most gay guys tend to be ugly

huge swathes of tibb shade?

[Marsh.]

I hate being gay because most gay guys tend to be ugly

Jay looks much better these days.

[Withano]

Nobody chooses their sexuality. You're born gay, straight or somewhere in between and nothing can impact or change that.

People coming out later in life will not have chosen to be bi/gay, they would have just repressed that side of themselves.

.

[Marsh.]

Of all the people you could have used to blame for the 'born gay' concept.. you went with tony blair? :laugh2:

I'm shocked. I was certain he would have gone with a woman? :shocked:

[Ashley.]

gays should die lol its okay i'm allowed to say that because I'm gay too lol x

no this is not justified.

[Liam-]

gays should die lol its okay i'm allowed to say that because I'm gay too lol x

What

[Ashley.]

What

It was an exaggeration to mirror how silly people sound when they say "I'm allowed to say it because it's what I am"

[JoshBB]

It was an exaggeration to mirror how silly people sound when they say "I'm allowed to say it because it's what I am"

Do you not understand the concept of reclaiming words used as slurs, and turning them into a message of empowerment? If not, there, I just explained it to you. :laugh:

[Ashley.]

Do you not understand the concept of reclaiming words used as slurs, and turning them into a message of empowerment? If not, there, I just explained it to you. :laugh:

Well no because it's not like that isn't it, it's just an excuse to offend.

[Liam-]

It was an exaggeration to mirror how silly people sound when they say "I'm allowed to say it because it's what I am"

Yes, because me using derogatory words to describe myself is completely comparable - even when exaggerated - to a gay saying all gays should die.

Gay people are allowed to say those words if they want to, just like black people are allowed to use the N word if they want to, I don't use the words to describe other people, just myself, normally when I'm being sarcastic or trying to pove a point, social immunity is great that way.

[JoshBB]

Well no because it's not like that isn't it, it's just an excuse to offend.

um?? yes it is though? :laugh:

Can I just ask, are you LGBT+ yourself or straight?

[TomC]

It was an exaggeration to mirror how silly people sound when they say "I'm allowed to say it because it's what I am"

I agree. If the word is heard being banded around, it loses it's potency, it becomes acceptable, and everyone says it, and that's wrong IMO.

[Northern Monkey]

Filthy hetero scum should all die a slow death.Specially me!
It's ok though cos i'm straight.

[JoshBB]

I agree. If the word is heard being banded around, it loses it's potency, it becomes acceptable, and everyone says it, and that's wrong IMO.

That's the whole point.

Then the word can't be used in an abusive, hateful, or offensive manner.. the words then lose their power. Reclaiming words is an important aspect of empowering any group that faces prejudice.

[Lostie!]

I somewhat disagree with people who say that you're "born" gay. While this is the case for some people, I think some people can "develop" homosexuality in their later life and begin to show an interest for the same gender over a certain period of time.

What are your thoughts on this?

Yeah, I think it varies depending on the individual. Some identify as gay from a younger age, and I absolutely believe some only develop those feelings later in life.

There isn't a simple yes / now answer to the debate that applies to all gay people.

[TomC]

That's the whole point.

Then the word can't be used in an abusive, hateful, or offensive manner.. the words then lose their power. Reclaiming words is an important aspect of empowering any group that faces prejudice.

I disagree to be honest. People will still use it as abuse - although we don't really have racism against black people in this country any more, regardless of the fact black people casually call each other the N word, it can still be used as a highly abusive term.

[Ashley.]

um?? yes it is though? :laugh:

No, this just leads back to my earlier thread about how gay people can be homophobic.

[Marsh.]

I find this thread deeply deeply upsetting.

[JoshBB]

No, this just leads back to my earlier thread about how gay people can be homophobic.

It doesn't lead back to homophobia at all :laugh:

Are you going to discuss this properly or am I wasting my time?

[JoshBB]

I disagree to be honest. People will still use it as abuse - although we don't really have racism against black people in this country any more, regardless of the fact black people casually call each other the N word, it can still be used as a highly abusive term.

Yeah but eventually it would get to the point where if someone used it as abuse then it would have far less impact on the person and they would be far less upset/angered by it

[Liam-]

Not my self shaming being deleted :hmph:

[TomC]

Yeah but eventually it would get to the point where if someone used it as abuse then it would have far less impact on the person and they would be far less upset/angered by it

Your point just doesn't make sense to me. Because gay people use derogatory words to describe themselves, it stops being derogatory when others say it? Like I said, this has happened before which ethnic minorities and indeed sexual minorities and nothing changes - the word remains as offensive, regardless of whether it's taboo or not.

[Glenn.]

I find anyone that thinks being gay is a choice, to be extremely ignorant. I'm a bit offended tbh.

[DemolitionRed]

Whilst I do not want to connect the 2 in any way shape of form


it does beg the question are you born a paedophile?

Why would you even associate the two?

[Glenn.]

I just realised who the op is and I'm shocked that someone with supposedly high intelligence to be a solicitor/lawyer etc can have such stupid opinions.

[TomC]

I find anyone that thinks being gay is a choice, to be extremely ignorant. I'm a bit offended tbh.

They never said it was a choice!

[Ashley.]

I just realised who the op is and I'm shocked that someone with supposedly high intelligence to be a solicitor/lawyer etc can have such stupid opinions.

Lmao @ you thinking that I think being gay is a choice and then saying I'm stupid for something that YOU assumed.

Sometimes I think you try to be controversial on purpose and tbh it's getting on my nerves.

[Glenn.]

If gay people, in someone's view, wasn't born gay then they imply that it's a choice rather than not.

[JoshBB]

Your point just doesn't make sense to me. Because gay people use derogatory words to describe themselves, it stops being derogatory when others say it? Like I said, this has happened before which ethnic minorities and indeed sexual minorities and nothing changes - the word remains as offensive, regardless of whether it's taboo or not.

You're going to have to google the concept, I'm not very good at explaining it but it makes sense to me and I think it would for you too.

[JoshBB]

Sometimes I think you try to be controversial on purpose and tbh it's getting on my nerves.

sCREAMING

[Ashley.]

If gay people, in someone's view, wasn't born gay then they imply that it's a choice rather than not.

You're the one doing the implying.

Currently I'm straight. Could I fall in love with another girl sometime in the future? Perhaps. Does that mean I've been bi/gay all of my life, despite never having feelings for a girl up until that point? Perhaps.

[Glenn.]

Then I don't quite get the thread? In your first post you state quite ignorantly that you don't think people are born gay. Have I missed something?

[Ashley.]

Then I don't quite get the thread? In your first post you state quite ignorantly that you don't think people are born gay. Have I missed something?

And you say that I'm a stupid person for thinking that just because I don't have the same opinion as you, like you do in every single ****ing thread in this forum.

Now I wait patiently for my first ban :idc:

[Marsh.]

If gay people, in someone's view, wasn't born gay then they imply that it's a choice rather than not.

No it doesn't. It's suggesting that sexuality forms later in life.

There are many things we are that we don't choose to be but are also not born with either.

[Glenn.]

You're the one doing the implying.

Currently I'm straight. Could I fall in love with another girl sometime in the future? Perhaps. Does that mean I've been bi/gay all of my life, despite never having feelings for a girl up until that point? Perhaps.

Yes it means you're bi. You don't just wake up one day being gay

[Jack_]

If gay people, in someone's view, wasn't born gay then they imply that it's a choice rather than not.

No it doesn't in the slightest. This is exactly the kind of misconception I was talking about in my first post in this thread.

Some people believe you are born with a sexuality (i.e. nature), others believe your sexuality comes into fruition through socialisation (i.e. nurture). Neither of these possibilities ever implies that it is possible to choose, or indeed change your sexuality. At all.

You do not choose how you are socialised, you are a product of your environment. Therefore you do not choose your sexuality. Nor can you change it. But that doesn't necessarily mean you were born with it.

I honestly don't understand why people often make this correlation between the nurture argument and people saying sexuality is a choice, the two are not related at all :shrug: the idea that you can choose or change your sexuality is moronic, but the idea that sexuality is socialised and learned behaviour is not, and is a very valid argument

[Glenn.]

No it doesn't. It's suggesting that sexuality forms later in life.

There are many things we are that we don't choose to be but are also not born with either.

Gay isn't something you just develop though. The underlining feeling has always been there but opportunities and such don't arise to fully understand them feelings. It's like dezzy quite rightly says, if someone has had straight relationships all their lives then they sudden go come out as gay, theyve suppressed it.

[Marsh.]

No it doesn't in the slightest. This is exactly the kind of misconception I was talking about in my first post in this thread.

Some people believe you are born with a sexuality (i.e. nature), others believe your sexuality comes into fruition through socialisation (i.e. nurture). Neither of these possibilities ever implies that it is possible to choose, or indeed change your sexuality. At all.

You do not choose how you are socialised, you are a product of your environment. Therefore you do not choose your sexuality. Nor can you change it. But that doesn't necessarily mean you were born with it.

I honestly don't understand why people often make this correlation between the nurture argument and people saying sexuality is a choice, the two are not related at all :shrug: the idea that you can choose or change your sexuality is moronic, but the idea that sexuality is socialised and learned behaviour is not, and is a very valid argument

Exactly.

It's like a cold blooded murderer. Doubtful they were born like that but their frame of mind was formed through their upbringing/environment etc.

Not that I'm suggesting a link between psychos and gays. :unsure:

[Marsh.]

Gay isn't something you just develop though. The underlining feeling has always been there but opportunities and such don't arise to fully understand them feelings. It's like dezzy quite rightly says, if someone has had straight relationships all their lives then they sudden go come out as gay, theyve suppressed it.

I'm not saying "develop gay", I'm talking about sexuality in general.

Babies, as far as I'm aware, don't have sexual urges. It's something that develops later. Therefore whatever sexuality they are -straight, gay, bi, whatever- also forms later.

[Glenn.]

No it doesn't in the slightest. This is exactly the kind of misconception I was talking about in my first post in this thread.

Some people believe you are born with a sexuality (i.e. nature), others believe your sexuality comes into fruition through socialisation (i.e. nurture). Neither of these possibilities ever implies that it is possible to choose, or indeed change your sexuality. At all.

You do not choose how you are socialised, you are a product of your environment. Therefore you do not choose your sexuality. Nor can you change it. But that doesn't necessarily mean you were born with it.

I honestly don't understand why people often make this correlation between the nurture argument and people saying sexuality is a choice, the two are not related at all :shrug: the idea that you can choose or change your sexuality is moronic, but the idea that sexuality is socialised and learned behaviour is not, and is a very valid argument
The nurture argument is invalid. Daniel said he was brought up in a, for want of a better word, 'straight' family. He's still gay.

[Marsh.]

The nurture argument is invalid. Daniel said he was brought up in a, for want of a better word, 'straight' family. He's still gay.

The nurture argument isn't suggesting that you have to grow up around gay people to become gay. :joker:

[Jamie89]

I'm not gay so I can't really have an opinion based on anything other than what I hear gay people say and the very big majority believe that they were born gay so I'm happy to take their word for it. Does it really matter that much either way anyhow?

You don't need to be gay to have an opinion on sexuality. Everyone has one :spin:

I'd say that they were bisexual with a massive preference towards the opposite gender or that they repressed their bi/gay side.

Sexuality is not something that can change. No one would choose to be gay or bi if it was a choice, life is harder for anyone who isn't straight.

:nono: I completely disagree. It really bothers me when people say things like that. Speak for yourself fine, but not for everyone else. I love being gay, wouldn't change it for anything!

I hate being gay because most gay guys tend to be ugly

:joker:

[Glenn.]

I'm not saying "develop gay", I'm talking about sexuality in general.

Babies, as far as I'm aware, don't have sexual urges. It's something that develops later. Therefore whatever sexuality they are -straight, gay, bi, whatever- also forms later.

But when then sexual urges come into effect you already know or are confused about what triggers them urges. Most people know what floats their boats and gay people mainly suppress it because of the stigma they believe it holds.

[Jack_]

Exactly.

It's like a cold blooded murderer. Doubtful they were born like that but their frame of mind was formed through their upbringing/environment etc.

Not that I'm suggesting a link between psychos and gays. :unsure:

Indeed.

Humans are for the most part born as blank slates, and all of our personality traits, mannerisms and interests are the product of socialisation. This includes gender and sexuality.

Unless you have some sort of psychological issue then most human traits are learned behaviour as opposed to something you're born with.

[Jamie89]

I think it's the kinsey scale that describes sexuality as being more of a point on a scale rather than something where you're one of 2 or 3 things. I believe this, and that sexuality can be fluid for some people and change over time, even if it's just small changes. Everything about us is complicated and I think sexuality is too, and so it's oversimplified by saying that everyone has to define themselves as gay/straight or bi and then stick with that for life. They're just labels. I've only ever been attracted to men though so I identify as gay but I've known plenty of "straight" and "gay" people who've dabbled. One of my gay friends has sex with women all the time, but that's for different reasons lol.
As to whether or not it's set at birth, I think it is to an extent but then maybe environment can play a part too. I have no idea, except for the fact that it's NOT a choice.

[Glenn.]

The nurture argument isn't suggesting that you have to grow up around gay people to become gay. :joker:
Of course it does. That was his personal environment.

[Marsh.]

But when then sexual urges come into effect you already know or are confused about what triggers them urges. Most people know what floats their boats and gay people mainly suppress it because of the stigma they believe it holds.

Yes but have you known from BIRTH? No. :laugh: It's formed as you've grown up and then you reach sexual maturity and you're aware of what turns you on.

[Marsh.]

Of course it does. That was his personal environment.

:facepalm: It's a hell of a lot more complex than that.

[Glenn.]

:facepalm:

What environments would you say could contribute to someone being gay

[Marsh.]

What environments would you say could contribute to someone being gay

It's not as simple as putting together a formula to say...

If you grow up with a straight mother and father - you'll be straight

If you are brought up by your single mother and a gay uncle - you'll be gay.

It's a hell of a lot more complex than that.

[Glenn.]

It's not as simple as putting together a formula to say...

If you grow up with a straight mother and father - you'll be straight

If you are brought up by your single mother and a gay uncle - you'll be gay.

It's a hell of a lot more complex than that.

Like?

[Jack_]

The nurture argument is invalid. Daniel said he was brought up in a, for want of a better word, 'straight' family. He's still gay.

One person's experiences posted on an internet forum does not negate an entire body of research and work into a specific argument :conf:

People also commonly assume that the nurture argument is specifically related to your family formation but that isn't just what it's about, it is far more than that. From the second you are born you are injected with norms, values, ideas, belief systems, messages, codes, cultures, environments, the list goes on. The specific elements of what shapes a person are impossible to nail down, but socialisation plays an instrumental role in the development of human beings, from the way we talk, to the things we're interested in, right down to our gender and our sexuality.

None of this is chosen, but these are not ideas you are born with whilst floating in the womb.

[Jamie89]

You're all talking as if you KNOW lol. No one knows or understands the complexities of how sexuality is developed, just like there's so many other things about us and our brains for example that noone understands. The only thing we can be sure about is that it isn't a choice

[Marsh.]

Like?

:joker: I'm not a psychologist. I'm explaining the OPs point of view and how the nurture argument is not as simple as you're making it nor is it suggesting sexuality is a conscious choice.

[Niamh.]

You don't need to be gay to have an opinion on sexuality. Everyone has one :spin:







:nono: I completely disagree. It really bothers me when people say things like that. Speak for yourself fine, but not for everyone else. I love being gay, wouldn't change it for anything!







:joker:


Why is my name coming up for all 3 of those quotes, I only said the first one :suspect:

[Jamie89]

Why is my name coming up for all 3 of those quotes, I only said the first one :suspect:

That's odd? It's appearing as it should on mine. Refresh your screen? :laugh:

[Glenn.]

One person's experiences posted on an internet forum does not negate an entire body of research and work into a specific argument :conf:

People also commonly assume that the nurture argument is specifically related to your family formation but that isn't just what it's about, it is far more than that. From the second you are born you are injected with norms, values, ideas, belief systems, messages, codes, cultures, environments, the list goes on. The specific elements of what shapes a person are impossible to nail down, but socialisation plays an instrumental role in the development of human beings, from the way we talk, to the things we're interested in, right down to our gender and our sexuality.

None of this is chosen, but these are not ideas you are born with whilst floating in the womb.

There are parents out there that drill so much crap into children's heads for example, how being gay is wrong. I've had that from my own father. I've been brought up by my father to think that being gay is disgusting etc and I actually did believe it at one point. But that didn't stop me being gay nor did it make me straight.

[Jack_]

There are parents out there that drill so much crap into children's heads for example, how being gay is wrong. I've had that from my own father. I've been brought up by my father to think that being gay is disgusting etc and I actually did believe it at one point. But that didn't stop me being gay nor did it make me straight.

Again, you are trying to nail the nurture argument down to specific elements which is not what it is about at all. As Marsh said, it is far more complex than that, and it is. Socialisation is not a process that can be dissected and analysed, it just ~is~. Your very being is the product of it.

And actually, if anything, I'd argue that usually being told something is bad has the opposite effect, especially on children :laugh: a bit like 'wet paint - do not touch' signs or kids that have emerged from strictly religious families and go off the rails when they get a bit of freedom. Note, I'm not actually saying what your dad said had any effect because as I said before, it's not specific things like that that the nurture argument is about

[Glenn.]

Again, you are trying to nail the nurture argument down to specific elements which is not what it is about at all. As Marsh said, it is far more complex than that, and it is. Socialisation is not a process that can be dissected and analysed, it just ~is~. Your very being is the product of it.

And actually, if anything, I'd argue that usually being told something is bad has the opposite effect, especially on children :laugh: a bit like 'wet paint - do not touch' signs or kids that have emerged from strictly religious families and go off the rails when they get a bit of freedom. Note, I'm not actually saying what your dad said had any effect because as I said before, it's not specific things like that that the nurture argument is about

So the nuture argument is just as concise as religion then?

[Daniel.]

It's nature, I don't believe it's nurture for a minute

[Jack_]

So the nuture argument is just as concise as religion then?

I don't even get what this post is supposed to mean...

Is it a dig at religion? Always down for that...

[Glenn.]

I don't like the idea of being told 'you're gay because of this' or 'oh that's why you're gay' it's a crock of ****. I'm gay because I'm gay, that's the way is. I can't change that.

[Marsh.]

I don't like the idea of being told 'you're gay because of this' or 'oh that's why you're gay' it's a crock of ****. I'm gay because I'm gay, that's the way is. I can't change that.

Nobody's saying you can change it though. :cons:

You're still assuming this is all to do with influencing a person to make a conscious decision. It isn't.

Do you honestly think you'd be the exact same person you are today if you were brought up by another family? In another culture? Another country? etc etc

[Glenn.]

I don't even get what this post is supposed to mean...

Is it a dig at religion? Always down for that...

Not so much a dig at religion. I meant by the way that it's just an unanswerable question and people just follow it.

[Glenn.]

Nobody's saying you can change it though. :cons:

You're still assuming this is all to do with influencing a person to make a conscious decision. It isn't.

Do you honestly think you'd be the exact same person you are today if you were brought up by another family? In another culture? Another country? etc etc

Sexuality is nothing to do with culture, what country you're in or what family you're brought up in. It's unique to a equally unique being.

[Jack_]

I don't like the idea of being told 'you're gay because of this' or 'oh that's why you're gay' it's a crock of ****. I'm gay because I'm gay, that's the way is. I can't change that.

Why are you being so hostile? I get the feeling it's because you still have the misconception that by arguing that sexuality is socialised you think people believe it's a choice and that it can be changed, and if so I need to categorically repeat it again - that is not the case. The two are not related.

You do not choose your sexuality, and you cannot change it. It is a moronic argument, but one that is totally separate from the idea that much like every other aspect of every human being on the planet, your sexuality is socialised, learned behaviour.

Yes you are gay because you're gay, but there are reasons why people are a lot of things, and they need to be researched and analysed so we can begin to understand the world we live in and why we are the way we are. Whether you wish to listen to that or not is up to you, doesn't mean it shouldn't be theorised about or isn't real though :laugh:

[Jordan.]

The thought that you're born with all your preferences already determined seems wrong to me

[Marsh.]

Sexuality is nothing to do with culture, what country you're in or what family you're brought up in. It's unique to a equally unique being.

I never said that. I'm suggesting everything about a person is a combination of everything that surrounds a person, who they interact with, the experiences they have, the childhood they had. It all comes together to make a person who they are.

It's not as simple as saying, you have a short temper because your mum does, you're straight because your dad is a religious homophobic etc. Humans are complex with many sides to them, all of which have some root in our experiences and our past.

Hence therapy and counselling helping people get to the root of things about themselves, discover things about themselves by looking back on their lives.

That's why babies are so bloody dull, :laugh:, they haven't formed anything yet because they're new. As they grow you see their "person" form and change and adapt as they grow up due to a combination of EVERYTHING that makes them who they are.

I meant sexuality is just as much a part of you as everything else that you are, your personality traits and everything. All of which wouldn't be exactly the same if your life to date had been affected by different factors. Is that suggesting you chose to be gay? No. Is it suggesting you chose to be... I don't know... short tempered? Or hate baked beans? Or what sense of humour you have? No it means it's all formed from a bunch of variable factors that are different for everyone.

[Glenn.]

Yes but have you known from BIRTH? No. :laugh: It's formed as you've grown up and then you reach sexual maturity and you're aware of what turns you on.


No one knows anything at birth except how to suck on a tit(the irony for a gay man) but I had an inkling when I was very young and I can't explain why I had that feeling. I didn't know what it was until I started to get them urges.

[Marsh.]

No one knows anything at birth except how to suck on a tit(the irony for a gay man) but I had an inkling when I was very young and I can't explain why I had that feeling. I didn't know what it was until I started to get them urges.

Very young. That doesn't suggest you were born with that feeling. It still developed, just as EVERYTHING about a person develops after birth.

I'm not suggesting you can't be a gay six year old (albeit without knowing about sex at that age). But that six year old hasn't been gay from birth. :laugh:

[JoshBB]

No one knows anything at birth except how to suck on a tit(the irony for a gay man) but I had an inkling when I was very young and I can't explain why I had that feeling. I didn't know what it was until I started to get them urges.

Yeah, for me at least, I knew I was different from a young age. I couldn't quite put my finger on it but when I realised I was gay it felt almost like I had always known it.

That sounded so deep :omgno:

[Jack_]

The thought that you're born with all your preferences already determined seems wrong to me

Because it is wrong, like I said we are all born pretty much as blank slates and the people we become is the product of the environment we are born into

Like, it's actually a hilarious notion to me to think that there's a female foetus floating around in the womb right now that is already wanting a Barbie doll, is looking forward to watching The Apprentice, likes Taylor Swift, has a Scouse accent, eats with their knife and fork the 'wrong way round', gesticulates a lot when speaking and is ravenous for some cock :laugh:

From the second a child is born they are learning about what this bizarre place is and in the process every inch of their personality and identity is being formed. There is nothing inherent about any of it, it is all a product of socialisation

[JoshBB]

I remember my Psychology teacher mentioning we'll be looking at sexuality in a few months..

so I'll report back to yall and provide you with the deets :laugh:

[Glenn.]

Very young. That doesn't suggest you were born with that feeling. It still developed, just as EVERYTHING about a person develops after birth.

But it still developed at a very young age. I'm talking 5-6yrs old. I still had a hell of a lot of developing to do which is why I don't favour the nuture argument.

[Marsh.]

Yeah, for me at least, I knew I was different from a young age. I couldn't quite put my finger on it but when I realised I was gay it felt almost like I had always known it.

That sounded so deep :omgno:

That's how it feels for everyone. That's not a counter argument against the "nurture" stuff. :laugh:

We can all only remember being who we are because that's the way it is.

I can't remember being inside mother as a baby with no knowledge of anything. :laugh:

[Jordan.]

Because it is wrong, like I said we are all born pretty much as blank slates and the people we become is the product of the environment we are born into

Like, it's actually a hilarious notion to me to think that there's a female foetus floating around in the womb right now that is already wanting a Barbie doll, is looking forward to watching The Apprentice, likes Taylor Swift, has a Scouse accent, eats with their knife and fork the 'wrong way round', gesticulates a lot when speaking and is ravenous for some cock :laugh:

From the second a child is born they are learning about what this bizarre place is and in the process every inch of their personality and identity is being formed. There is nothing inherent about any of it, it is all a product of socialisation

Screaming at the middle part. Yeah I agree with you though.

[Marsh.]

But it still developed at a very young age. I'm talking 5-6yrs old. I still had a hell of a lot of developing to do which is why I don't favour the nuture argument.

Yes, you still had a lot of developing to do, in all areas of who you are as a person.

Nobody is saying you've developed into a homosexual at 5 and then your dad's shouting developed you to a heterosexual by age 10. :laugh:

But whatever age you can say you "knew" you were gay or whatever else, it still developed AFTER birth.

[JoshBB]

That's how it feels for everyone. That's not a counter argument against the "nurture" stuff. :laugh:

We can all only remember being who we are because that's the way it is.

I can't remember being inside mother as a baby with no knowledge of anything. :laugh:

Oh that wasn't a counter-argument, just thought you might find it relatable or something :laugh:

[Rob!]

The only form of penetration I can do is to stick it in a hole that **** comes out of. Why would I choose that?

[Jack_]

I remember my Psychology teacher mentioning we'll be looking at sexuality in a few months..

so I'll report back to yall and provide you with the deets :laugh:

I expect a lot of it will be rooted in nature, as is naturally usually the case with psychology :laugh:

But it still developed at a very young age. I'm talking 5-6yrs old. I still had a hell of a lot of developing to do which is why I don't favour the nuture argument.

Your sexuality will have absolutely been established by that age, we're not talking about sexuality forming in puberty, it will have been rooted in the very early developmental stages of a child's life along with gender (before you would even consciously think about it), but that doesn't mean it's not a thing

[Marsh.]

The only form of penetration I can do is to stick it in a hole that **** comes out of. Why would I choose that?

Because you like scat?

[Rob!]

Because you like scat?

See you in six months :wavey:

[Marsh.]

See you in six months :wavey:

:joker:

[JoshBB]

Because you like scat?

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view5/2717465/girl-sets-herself-on-fire-o.gif

[Glenn.]

I didn't realise people were being that literal with the thread. Of course I don't think that there are gay babies being born and they are aware of it. But the phrase, 'born gay' is just a phrase.
I don't feel I was nurtured in anyway to be gay. There wasn't anything that helped me sway towards men, nothing that influenced it, which is basically what the nuture argument is about.
When a gay person says I was born gay, they mean that at the time they felt a bit differently or acted a bit differently, looking back when they knew what that meant, it's easy to say, 'I've been gay for a very long time'

[Jessica.]

Like, it's actually a hilarious notion to me to think that there's a female foetus floating around in the womb right now that is already wanting a Barbie doll, is looking forward to watching The Apprentice, likes Taylor Swift, has a Scouse accent, eats with their knife and fork the 'wrong way round', gesticulates a lot when speaking and is ravenous for some cock :laugh:

oh my god :laugh3: :laugh3: :laugh3: :laugh3: :laugh3:

[Glenn.]

Anyway I'm going to watch some very hardcore gay porn and forget this thread exists. Goodnight

[JoshBB]

Anyway I'm going to watch some very hardcore gay porn and forget this thread exists. Goodnight

Have fun

[Rob!]

For what it's worth though:

I was sexually attracted to both boys and girls when I was at school. I even remember feeling whatever a six year old's equivalent of being aroused is about boys in primary.
I've slept with two women but then after my first experience with a guy when I was sixteen it was like girls became an instant thing of the past and I haven't been even remotely attracted to once since.
I'd love to be bisexual - in that I'd love the opportunity to be able to fall in love with both sexes but it just doesn't seem to be like that in my brain. Hell I hate being gay tbh - it's awful a lot of the time and there are a lot of twats in the gay community.
If a woman comes into my life that I happen to fall in love with then it won't be something that I fight, I'll go in (:hehe:) and see what happens though.

[Marsh.]

I didn't realise people were being that literal with the thread. Of course I don't think that there are gay babies being born and they are aware of it. But the phrase, 'born gay' is just a phrase.
I don't feel I was nurtured in anyway to be gay. There wasn't anything that helped me sway towards men, nothing that influenced it, which is basically what the nuture argument is about.
When a gay person says I was born gay, they mean that at the time they felt a bit differently or acted a bit differently, looking back when they knew what that meant, it's easy to say, 'I've been gay for a very long time'

Nurture doesn't mean there has to be a specific pin point of something that made them gay.

It's saying that, just like everything else about that person, it's a combination of EVERYTHING in their life. Therefore you can't have a formula for what makes anyone anything because no two people have the same experiences/life specifically. There are too many factors involved in life to pinpoint.

It's one huge lottery. Depending on which variables in our lives change, we can be different people in different ways, sexuality included.

Like earlier, I wasn't suggesting a different culture would make you gay or straight, I was suggesting culture is ONE OF MANY ways in which someone's life can be different and therefore have created a different person.

[Glenn.]

Nurture doesn't mean there has to be a specific pin point of something that made them gay.

It's saying that, just like everything else about that person, it's a combination of EVERYTHING in their life. Therefore you can't have a formula for what makes anyone anything because no two people have the same experiences/life specifically. There are too many factors involved in life to pinpoint.

It's one huge lottery. Depending on which variables in our lives change, we can be different people in different ways, sexuality included.

So many things influence it then?

[Marsh.]

So many things influence it then?

Yes.

But things influence it all the same. It isn't an inherent part of you that you are born with, like a hereditary condition. :laugh:

[Jack_]

I didn't realise people were being that literal with the thread. Of course I don't think that there are gay babies being born and they are aware of it. But the phrase, 'born gay' is just a phrase.
I don't feel I was nurtured in anyway to be gay. There wasn't anything that helped me sway towards men, nothing that influenced it, which is basically what the nuture argument is about.
When a gay person says I was born gay, they mean that at the time they felt a bit differently or acted a bit differently, looking back when they knew what that meant, it's easy to say, 'I've been gay for a very long time'

You won't feel that your sexuality was nurtured though or be able to pin point specific things that helped develop it, of course not. Just as you won't be able to recall specific things that created your mannerisms, your interests, your style choices, your personality, etc etc. It's not something you can really look back on and correlate saying 'yeah that caused that and x caused y', it just happens without you even knowing.

When people realise they are gay, even when they're very young, that is because their sexuality has been formed in the early years of their life. I'm sorry but I really can't buy into the notion that you're sat in the womb, or even as far back as being part sperm part egg, and already you're gagging for the d or v. Or both. Babies are the the furthest thing from sexualised you can get.

[Glenn.]

Yes.

But things influence it all the same. It isn't an inherent part of you that you are born with, like a hereditary condition. :laugh:

So how does the nuture argument have any basis then?

[Rob!]

Yes.

But things influence it all the same. It isn't an inherent part of you that you are born with, like a hereditary condition. :laugh:

Is it not a genetic thing though somewhere along the line or is that all just bull****?

[Daniel.]

People thinking anything other than your born gay :worry:

[JoshBB]

Is it not a genetic thing though somewhere along the line or is that all just bull****?

My personal belief is that it is a mixture of environmental exposure and recessive genes.

Not that it matters, just a theory of mine. I don't think its a choice whatsoever though, and not something that can be 'cured'.

[Marsh.]

So how does the nuture argument have any basis then?

All of the influences in life IS the nurture argument.

Are you still thinking it's somehow about a parent teaching which sexuality you should be? :unsure:

Nature is something that you are born with, nurture is dependent on all of life's variables and influences on who we are, which change from person to person who all have very different factors affecting their lives.

[Marsh.]

Is it not a genetic thing though somewhere along the line or is that all just bull****?

Personally, I don't think sexual orientation is something you inherit genetically. :laugh:

[Glenn.]

All of the influences in life IS the nurture argument.

Are you still thinking it's somehow about a parent teaching which sexuality you should be? :unsure:

Nature is something that you are born with, nurture is dependent on all of life's variables and influences on who we are.

I think is rather just stick with I was born gay. The nuture argument is as vague as the whole God created the universe crap.

[Marsh.]

My personal belief is that it is a mixture of environmental exposure and recessive genes.

Not that it matters, just a theory of mine. I don't think its a choice whatsoever though, and not something that can be 'cured'.

Oh I don't know, I've turned a few lesbians in my time. :smug:

[Glenn.]

Oh I don't know, I've turned a few lesbians in my time. :smug:

Did you drug them before hand?

[Marsh.]

I think is rather just stick with I was born gay. The nuture argument is as vague as the whole God created the universe crap.

It's not vague.

Just as I couldn't sit here and pin point exactly why I have any of the personality traits /preferences I have in any area of life doesn't make the argument itself vague. :laugh:

I wasn't born with specific food preferences or sexual preferences, it developed later. Not being able to sit and write a simple formula doesn't make it automatically invalid. Psychology of humans and our behaviour is insanely complex. I'd be worried if they could say "abc=straight / xyz=gay"

[Marsh.]

Did you drug them before hand?

No, I was just only allowed to use my fingers. :nono:

[Gstar]

Agree with OP

[Glenn.]

It's not vague.

Just as I couldn't sit here and pin point exactly why I have any of the personality traits /preferences I have in any area of life doesn't make the argument itself vague. :laugh:

Of course it's vague. It's all assumptions and how we think our brains and bodies work.

[Rob!]

Oh I don't know, I've turned a few lesbians stomachs in my time. :smug:

:smug:

[Marsh.]

Of course it's vague. It's all assumptions and how we think our brains and bodies work.

No, it is how we work. That's how we are all unique because no two lives are exactly the same are they?

Otherwise, we'd have test tube babies being born with the parents choosing what sexuality they want them to have, whether they want them to have little patience or a lot, they want them to have a short temper or a penchant for throwing breakable objects. :laugh:

Just because you can't sit down and go "Right, Jay loves being smacked around the bedroom because of xyz" doesn't mean he was born being a sadomasochist. :laugh:

Why do you think people go to therapy? :laugh: To learn more about things, to work through their issues. If we were all conceived as the people we are there'd be nothing we could do to evolve as people.

[Marsh.]

:smug:

:fist:

[Jack_]

Of course it's vague. It's all assumptions and how we think our brains and bodies work.

So you believe that people's personalities, mannerisms, characteristics, interests, etc etc are all inherent, were all created when the egg was fertilised? Genetically? You don't believe socialisation is a thing, and that the way people act and are is dependent on the place and time in which they are brought up in and live?

Seriously?

[Lostie!]

Then I don't quite get the thread? In your first post you state quite ignorantly that you don't think people are born gay. Have I missed something?

She said she believes some are but it's a different case for others, the way I took it she was merely saying that the "born gay" stance isn't a blanket term that accurately covers all. She also never suggested in the OP that it's a deliberate choice.

I don't see how she's being ignorant or stupid.

[Jack_]

Slightly related - I thought this was quite an interesting excerpt from an article on the Guardian I just found:

These issues highlight a fundamental problem that goes well beyond the peculiarities of these particular studies. Scientists are asking whether homosexuality is natural when we can’t even agree exactly what homosexuality is. Homosexuality, as with all sexualities, is a social construction.

What does that mean? In his book The History of Sexuality Michel Foucault charted a major shift in our construction of sexual desires over the past few centuries. There are two important changes. First, we have developed the idea that our sexual desires reveal a fundamental truth about who we are, and second we have created a conviction that we have an obligation to seek out that truth and express it. As Jesi Egan argues, “within this framework, sex isn’t just something you do. Instead, the kind of sex you have (or want to have) becomes a symptom of something else: your sexuality.”

Instead of just being a thing we do, therefore, sex has become an essential part of our identity. Hence the creation of the terms “homosexuality” and “heterosexuality” — terms which were never related to physical truths, but instead to social truths. This picture of sexuality is where we stand today: our sexual desires help construct our social identity, one which we believe tells a fundamental truth about who we are.

To understand this a bit more it is worth looking at past expressions of sexual desire.

Ancient Greece is usually noted as one of the most open societies when it came to male homosexual acts, which were seen by some as “the most praise-worthy, substantive and Godly forms of love.” Greece’s ancient culture is known to include a form of relationship called pederasty, a socially acknowledged and acceptable form of erotic love between an adult male and a younger man.

Or what about the Sambia in Papua New Guinea? Believing it possesses “masculine spirit”, boys in the Sambia are required to ingest semen as part of a ritual to allow them to mature to men. All boys go through a period in their life where they are required to perform regular oral sex on older members of society. When they become men themselves they then repay the favour by offering their semen to boys wishing to become men.

These sorts of examples are not just related to homosexual acts either. Look at the different perceptions of female beauty throughout the ages. In the Renaissance period for example more voluptuous women who had large breasts and hips were portrayed as beautiful, whereas in Victorian England women’s beauty was based around an hourglass figure created by corsets designed to cinch a waste as tightly as possible. These are both very different to mainstream perceptions of female beauty today, which are (controversially) based heavily on an ideal of model-type thinness.

This is the major problem that advocates of a gay gene face. Our sexual desires and ideals change based on our society at any given time. Do proponents of the gay gene believe that those in Ancient Greece or in the Sambia had/have a greater prevalence of a gay gene than we do today? Do our perceptions of female beauty change over the times because of shifts in the genes of straight men?

The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2015/jul/10/born-this-way-society-sexuality-gay-gene)

[Northern Monkey]

I think maybe there might not be just one answer?
Maybe there are various factors?
Genetics or social interactions through early life or hormonal imbalances or a combination?

[Glenn.]

So you believe that people's personalities, mannerisms, characteristics, interests, etc etc are all inherent, were all created when the egg was fertilised? Genetically? You don't believe socialisation is a thing, and that the way people act and are is dependent on the place and time in which they are brought up in and live?

Seriously?

I actually said in a few posts back that I didn't believe that gay babies are born. But I also don't believe that someone's environment or socialisation or how they are brought up determines their sexuality. It's like saying someone born in Brighton is going to grow and and be gay because there's a lot of gay people in Brighton

[Daniel.]

I was born to be emo

[Daniel.]

I just don't get what in my personal life would make me gay?

[MB.]

Stop arguing and enjoy cock you lot

[Jordan.]

I just don't get what in my personal life would make me gay?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CPwnq7QUcAA8yps.jpg

[Marsh.]

I actually said in a few posts back that I didn't believe that gay babies are born. But I also don't believe that someone's environment or socialisation or how they are brought up determines their sexuality. It's like saying someone born in Brighton is going to grow and and be gay because there's a lot of gay people in Brighton

Yes, but you're focussing on ONE OF MANY factors - the fact they were born in Brighton.

We are all brought up with millions of different influences and variables that change from person to person, not just who are parents are or where we live.

No one's saying that only ONE FACTOR can affect your sexuality. It's a combination of everything. Hence no formula as each and every person is entirely unique in their circumstances and life.

[Jack_]

I actually said in a few posts back that I didn't believe that gay babies are born. But I also don't believe that someone's environment or socialisation or how they are brought up determines their sexuality. It's like saying someone born in Brighton is going to grow and and be gay because there's a lot of gay people in Brighton

Well if you don't believe babies are born with a sexuality, then the only other option is for one's sexuality to be developed unconsciously in the early stages of life as a product of your surroundings. There's no in between :laugh: the second you're born socialisation begins immediately, so either you're born with your personality, mannerisms and sexuality already mapped out, or you're born as a blank slate and all of these are learned behaviour. Again, not through choice, but developed outside of the womb all the same

And that is far too simplistic :laugh: it's not like that at all

[Glenn.]

Yes, but you're focussing on ONE OF MANY factors - the fact they were born in Brighton.

We are all brought up with millions of different influences and variables that change from person to person.

No one's saying that only ONE FACTOR can affect your sexuality. It's a combination of everything. Hence no formula.

I wasn't focussing on one factor. It was example.

[Marsh.]

I wasn't focussing on one factor. It was example.

An example that focusses on one factor all the same.

There are too many factors in life to list them all conclusively.

[Glenn.]

An example that focusses on one factor all the same.

There are too many factors in life to list them all conclusively.

But a lot of different factors would come into play if you lived in a place with a lot of gay people.

[Marsh.]

But a lot of different factors would come into play if you lived in a place with a lot of gay people.

Yes, but it wouldn't be a case of "You're gay because you grew up in Brighton with lots of gay people" because someone else who also grew up in Brighton will have grown up straight or bi because outside of the fact they live in Brighton they have a million and one DIFFERENT factors all merging together to make a different person.

Hence why you can get twins with different sexualities.

[Dollface]

http://31.media.tumblr.com/7c497a75afd8ed764953ae3f1a552ed4/tumblr_inline_mflkwg1xga1ro8qpo.gif

[Marsh.]

Awww, see, animals can be camp as christmas too. :laugh:

[LukeB]

http://31.media.tumblr.com/7c497a75afd8ed764953ae3f1a552ed4/tumblr_inline_mflkwg1xga1ro8qpo.gif

:flutter:

[Glenn.]

I'm going to bed. You can have your nuture crap all you want. It's just a bunch of researchers who have nothing better to do who vaguely put together a bunch of crap.

[Marsh.]

I'm going to bed. You can have your nuture crap all you want. It's just a bunch of researchers who have nothing better to do who vaguely put together a bunch of crap.

I love respectful debates.

I wonder what factors make you such a ferociously defensive person....

[iRyan]

Sexuality is on a spectrum. Some people realize where they are on that spectrum as early as they can remember, others realize it much later in life.

[Marsh.]

I think your wrong, you think I'm wrong. Debates are completely pointless.

Not really. I don't think you're wrong, I just have a different viewpoint.

I just think the way you approach a discussion is a little.... hostile when it doesn't need to be.

[Dollface]

I'm going to bed. You can have your nuture crap all you want. It's just a bunch of researchers who have nothing better to do who vaguely put together a bunch of crap.

https://33.media.tumblr.com/f21aced973a99b6504e142246be8ffce/tumblr_n3io2zHR6C1skbu7co1_500.gif

[Glenn.]

Not really. I don't think you're wrong, I just have a different viewpoint.

I just think the way you approach a discussion is a little.... hostile when it doesn't need to be.

There's not a lot I can do about that. It's how I've been 'nurtured'

[Jack_]

I'm going to bed. You can have your nuture crap all you want. It's just a bunch of researchers who have nothing better to do who vaguely put together a bunch of crap.

:umm2:

Yes, researchers who have nothing better to do but try to theorise the world we live in in and its people in work you can't be bothered to read in order to make sense of it and try to be a progressive force for change

You can have all your stubborn 'I can't be bothered to comprehend this because it's stretches beyond what I've been taught so it must be crap!' attitude all you want. It's just a bunch of people on an internet forum who fail to understand basic societal concepts who whine on about not understanding it and so refute and ridicule it rather ironically

Is this how serious debates is supposed to work? :cheer2:

[Marsh.]

There's not a lot I can do about that. It's how I've been 'nurtured'

Correct. We've made progress. :laugh:

Although just because you've grown into an angry person doesn't mean there aren't ways you can learn to control it. :nono:

[Daniel.]

im perched for james realising he's gay soon

[Dollface]

https://38.media.tumblr.com/ebfdff66a4784b2fe2c92a175b61fcd1/tumblr_n96vuvwz5K1tzjfs1o1_500.gif

[Marsh.]

im perched for james realising he's gay soon

He already knows he is.

But just like most self-respecting homosexuals, he knows when a cock is full of sh*t and calling themselves Austin.

[Jay.]

maybe some people fall out the pussy and get scared of it

and some like it

idk i've not read any of this and i don't know anything about it to possibly comment