View Full Version : Avery/Dassey Discussion Thread (Contains spoilers from Making a Murderer) Brendans Conviction Overturned
..atm I'm leaning very much toward guilty with Steven because guilty is the most logical..a big thing for me are the previous things before his wrongful imprisonment..the cat and his threatening his cousin with a gun...those are things that don't really show a 'healthy mind' ..although a long time ago, that unhealthy mind wouldn't really right itself...and torturing an animal, as has been said many times can be a huge red flag to identifying a murderer...there are many inconsistencies with possible suspects which can make theories but that's all they are, inconsistencies ..there is nothing with any other possible suspect that says that unhealthy mind the way Steven's past has said...Teresa's charred remains were found on his property, her car was found on his property, he was 'the last person', so the most logical is that he killed her and surely the most logical is more often than not, the correct..?...and added to what we do know pretty much for certain, that he was a disturbed person....
..the timing of it Girth with his lawsuit case..?..yeah, that does throw it off but I don't even think that's something that Steven would have considered because his mind wasn't/isn't healthy ..in the relatively short time before the wrongful imprisonment that he spent as a free man, he displayed 'disturbing' on two occasions...and in the short time of 2 years since his release, he's killed someone..that to me is the most logical but it's been completely complicated because of the ineptitude and bungling of the police dept and forensics team....
..the problem is because the police dept only ever fully investigated Steven, we'll never know the for sure because all and any possible 'absolute' evidence is now lost...
lostalex
08-02-2016, 07:36 AM
..atm I'm leaning very much toward guilty with Steven because guilty is the most logical..a big thing for me are the previous things before his wrongful imprisonment..the cat and his threatening his cousin with a gun...those are things that don't really show a 'healthy mind' ..although a long time ago, that unhealthy mind wouldn't really right itself...and torturing an animal, as has been said many times can be a huge red flag to identifying a murderer...there are many inconsistencies with possible suspects which can make theories but that's all they are, inconsistencies ..there is nothing with any other possible suspect that says that unhealthy mind the way Steven's past has said...Teresa's charred remains were found on his property, her car was found on his property, he was 'the last person', so the most logical is that he killed her and surely the most logical is more often than not, the correct..?...and added to what we do know pretty much for certain, that he was a disturbed person....
..the timing of it Girth with his lawsuit case..?..yeah, that does throw it off but I don't even think that's something that Steven would have considered because his mind wasn't/isn't healthy ..in the relatively short time before the wrongful imprisonment that he spent as a free man, he displayed 'disturbing' on two occasions...and in the short time of 2 years since his release, he's killed someone..that to me is the most logical but it's been completely complicated because of the ineptitude and bungling of the police dept and forensics team....
every single straight male i grew up with tortured animals. my best friend in elementary school loved to collect caterpillars in a jar during recess... and as soon as we got inside he's fill the jar with water to kill them all. He was certainly not a murderer. well he was a caterpillar murderer when he was 8 years old, but he's certainly not a murderer as an adult. I had plenty of friends that would pour salt on slugs, or take great glee in killing spiders with boots. stomping on ant hills, bashing bee hives with baseball bats.
I still don't believe he did it, and I don't believe Brendan was anything at all to do with it either.
Stevens asked his new lawyer to carry out every forensic test available, would amguilty person really do that? :think:
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/01/30/19/30BBA83F00000578-0-image-a-6_1454183649925.jpg
Theres a hair on that piece of paper and it's annoying me
DemolitionRed
08-02-2016, 09:13 AM
Something like thirty percent of children who have witnessed or been the subject of abuse will go on to harm animals. Stephen was a teenager and so was well aware that what he did was wrong but that doesn't make him a sociopath/psychopath, though it likely does mean he had anti-social behavioural problems. He did this in front of friends and so it could of been peer pressure, alcohol or substance abuse.
At no point (from what I've seen so far) has there been any sign of child or partner abuse. It was repeatedly pointed out what a loving dad and partner he was and this doesn't ring true with a low functioning sociopath, though of course he could be.
There doesn't seem to be any psychiatrists involved in this case though which is odd. If this trial had been in the UK, at least one psychiatrist would of studied Stephens personality. Perhaps they did and we just weren't shown that.
Edited to add: Steven does appear to be void of emotions. He could be a sociopath but even if he is, that doesn't mean he committed this murder.
DemolitionRed
08-02-2016, 09:54 AM
One things for sure, this would never of been admissible in a British court and those detectives who interviewed Brenden certainly wouldn't be practising detectives any more. A confession doesn't make a person guilty unless there's proof to back that confession up. Brenden was a vulnerable teenager with intellectual impairment and its exactly this sort of person who will wrongly confess under pressure.
The entire conviction was unsafe because it lacked evidence and the evidence found pointed towards corruption.
The police officer who called in the Toyota registration 2 days before the car was found.
The key thob turning up and found by one of the police officers who was about to be financially burdened by Stevens compensation claim.
The key thob having none of the murder victims DNA but had Steve's DNA on it.
The blood file that had been tampered with and clearly had a needle mark in the top.
No blood in the garage or blood or bodily fluids in the bedroom.
A spent bullet which had been contaminated.
Inconsistent witness statements, especially over the time of day.
Deleted messages on the murder victims mobile phone.
Important footage of Brendan's interviews missing in the court room.
Relatives not investigated. There could of been very good reasons for sibling murder but they didn't bother to find out.
It all screams of a set up so far but I should watch it all before sticking with that conclusion.
Niamh.
08-02-2016, 09:54 AM
..atm I'm leaning very much toward guilty with Steven because guilty is the most logical..a big thing for me are the previous things before his wrongful imprisonment..the cat and his threatening his cousin with a gun...those are things that don't really show a 'healthy mind' ..although a long time ago, that unhealthy mind wouldn't really right itself...and torturing an animal, as has been said many times can be a huge red flag to identifying a murderer...there are many inconsistencies with possible suspects which can make theories but that's all they are, inconsistencies ..there is nothing with any other possible suspect that says that unhealthy mind the way Steven's past has said...Teresa's charred remains were found on his property, her car was found on his property, he was 'the last person', so the most logical is that he killed her and surely the most logical is more often than not, the correct..?...and added to what we do know pretty much for certain, that he was a disturbed person....
..the timing of it Girth with his lawsuit case..?..yeah, that does throw it off but I don't even think that's something that Steven would have considered because his mind wasn't/isn't healthy ..in the relatively short time before the wrongful imprisonment that he spent as a free man, he displayed 'disturbing' on two occasions...and in the short time of 2 years since his release, he's killed someone..that to me is the most logical but it's been completely complicated because of the ineptitude and bungling of the police dept and forensics team....
Yeah, I keep flip flopping back and forth but I think this probably right too, I do however think the Police interfered with the investigation and because of that they muddied the waters, i think if they'd investigated it properly their case might actually have looked more solid
Niamh.
08-02-2016, 09:55 AM
every single straight male i grew up with tortured animals. my best friend in elementary school loved to collect caterpillars in a jar during recess... and as soon as we got inside he's fill the jar with water to kill them all. He was certainly not a murderer. well he was a caterpillar murderer when he was 8 years old, but he's certainly not a murderer as an adult. I had plenty of friends that would pour salt on slugs, or take great glee in killing spiders with boots. stomping on ant hills, bashing bee hives with baseball bats.
Steve was 20 though when he did that to the cat, wasn't he?
Niamh.
08-02-2016, 09:56 AM
I still don't believe he did it, and I don't believe Brendan was anything at all to do with it either.
Stevens asked his new lawyer to carry out every forensic test available, would amguilty person really do that? :think:
Maybe if he thought it was his only chance and it got him off last time :shrug:
DemolitionRed
08-02-2016, 09:57 AM
Steve was 20 though when he did that to the cat, wasn't he?
I thought he was a juvenile but even if he was 20, he probably had the mental capacity of a 16 year old.
Niamh.
08-02-2016, 09:59 AM
Something like thirty percent of children who have witnessed or been the subject of abuse will go on to harm animals. Stephen was a teenager and so was well aware that what he did was wrong but that doesn't make him a sociopath/psychopath, though it likely does mean he had anti-social behavioural problems. He did this in front of friends and so it could of been peer pressure, alcohol or substance abuse.
At no point (from what I've seen so far) has there been any sign of child or partner abuse. It was repeatedly pointed out what a loving dad and partner he was and this doesn't ring true with a low functioning sociopath, though of course he could be.
There doesn't seem to be any psychiatrists involved in this case though which is odd. If this trial had been in the UK, at least one psychiatrist would of studied Stephens personality. Perhaps they did and we just weren't shown that.
Edited to add: Steven does appear to be void of emotions. He could be a sociopath but even if he is, that doesn't mean he committed this murder.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3398450/He-s-monster-Former-fianc-e-Making-Murderer-s-Steven-Avery-breaks-silence-claim-not-innocent.html
Niamh.
08-02-2016, 10:00 AM
I thought he was a juvenile but even if he was 20, he probably had the mental capacity of a 16 year old.
Also, Brendan told police that Steve used to touch him and other kids inappropriately, that wasn't shown on the Documentary but it was recorded ona phone call he made to his mother from prison
Niamh.
08-02-2016, 10:09 AM
I thought he was a juvenile but even if he was 20, he probably had the mental capacity of a 16 year old.
No I double checked it, he was 20 when he did that
Yeah, I keep flip flopping back and forth but I think this probably right too, I do however think the Police interfered with the investigation and because of that they muddied the waters, i think if they'd investigated it properly their case might actually have looked more solid
..you know what I think (atm..)...and this a bit way out there, I know..(which is why I only voiced it privately to Drew a while ago and then said I would shoot him and burn his body if he ever said anything..)...
..I don't think that the police interfered as much as we think they did, I think they did go onto his property illegally and find Teresa's car so that's been suspicious..but I think that Steven killed Teresa and then himself 'planted evidence' and he did that because he wanted it to be the same as before/the conspiracies and the suspicions etc, so he had to remove evidence and then plant it...it's the most logical thing that the killer is the one who had her car key and I believe he killed her...the dna/sweat/blood..?..well...(those are all things he could get from himself and he seems like a bit of a sweaty person..)...and the charred bones obviously, although he may not have so much planted them later, as burned her body later....
...the 'psychology' I think is a little like I said in another post about Brendon, that he seemed to lead an 'invisible' life in terms of his family/social groups etc and the only pic I've seen him smiling in was one which was taken in prison, that maybe prison has given him something..?...and ok, well he wouldn't have smiled that much with what he was going through/nothing to smile about...but then what would there be to smile about in prison either and I've googled so many pics, not one of him smiling except that one...
..anyway, that's Brendon...with Steven, well not many people seemed to think of the whole family in anything but a negative way/that creepy weirdo family, type thing...and within the family environment itself..?...again, brother, cousins, nephews etc...all probably a little 'invisible'...so Steven was also a disturbed mind as well..(I think..)...had he have been convicted for the original 6 years for threatening his cousin with a gun/jumping out at her etc...he would have been a guilty man, serving a sentence, nothing more than that...as it was and because of an incompetent forensics person plus a police dept that were all too willing to believe he raped as well...he served 18yrs of a legitimate protested innocence...and the 'attention' that received, suddenly Steven Avery was someone and he was someone in a positive way, because he was an innocent man..people fought for him..'his supporters', he had the full attention of his parents, it became his life for 18yrs and in a perverted, disturbing way..something he likes....he was 'Steven Avery' an innocent man....so I think it became his 'comfort zone' almost but also gave him 'fame'...he killed Teresa I think because, he is a disturbed person, he's a killer...but being a guilty man would give him nothing that he'd been given before and nothing that he 'craved', so he had to try to become an innocent man and 'interfere' himself....
..I guess what I'm thinking as well, is of killers like Mark David Chapman who killed John Lennon, he wanted to be 'famous' and obviously an unwell mind...with Steven I don't think that he wanted to or craved until it came to him through incompetence and a conviction that was wrongful...through that, he got so much attention and I think that was a world that he wanted to live in again....so many people out her, fighting pleading his innocence and focusing on him...
every single straight male i grew up with tortured animals. my best friend in elementary school loved to collect caterpillars in a jar during recess... and as soon as we got inside he's fill the jar with water to kill them all. He was certainly not a murderer. well he was a caterpillar murderer when he was 8 years old, but he's certainly not a murderer as an adult. I had plenty of friends that would pour salt on slugs, or take great glee in killing spiders with boots. stomping on ant hills, bashing bee hives with baseball bats.
..the caterpillar killer, would make a great serial killer name though..:laugh:...but killing a caterpillar though Alex is not the same as what Steven did to the cat...if you had, had a family cat/dog and your best friend came around and picked it up, through it on a fire and burned it...I don't think that you would be thinking, well I had a best friend and he did that, but well doesn't everyone do that../or every straight male as you describe...
DemolitionRed
08-02-2016, 10:23 AM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3398450/He-s-monster-Former-fianc-e-Making-Murderer-s-Steven-Avery-breaks-silence-claim-not-innocent.html
Clearly this programme is biased.
Niamh.
08-02-2016, 10:24 AM
..you know what I think (atm..)...and this a bit way out there, I know..(which is why I only voiced it privately to Drew a while ago and then said I would shoot him and burn his body if he ever said anything..)...
..I don't think that the police interfered as much as we think they did, I think they did go onto his property illegally and find Teresa's car so that's been suspicious..but I think that Steven killed Teresa and then himself 'planted evidence' and he did that because he wanted it to be the same as before/the conspiracies and the suspicions etc, so he had to remove evidence and then plant it...it's the most logical thing that the killer is the one who had her car key and I believe he killed her...the dna/sweat/blood..?..well...(those are all things he could get from himself and he seems like a bit of a sweaty person..)...and the charred bones obviously, although he may not have so much planted them later, as burned her body later....
...the 'psychology' I think is a little like I said in another post about Brendon, that he seemed to lead an 'invisible' life in terms of his family/social groups etc and the only pic I've seen him smiling in was one which was taken in prison, that maybe prison has given him something..?...and ok, well he wouldn't have smiled that much with what he was going through/nothing to smile about...but then what would there be to smile about in prison either and I've googled so many pics, not one of him smiling except that one...
..anyway, that's Brendon...with Steven, well not many people seemed to think of the whole family in anything but a negative way/that creepy weirdo family, type thing...and within the family environment itself..?...again, brother, cousins, nephews etc...all probably a little 'invisible'...so Steven was also a disturbed mind as well..(I think..)...had he have been convicted for the original 6 years for threatening his cousin with a gun/jumping out at her etc...he would have been a guilty man, serving a sentence, nothing more than that...as it was and because of an incompetent forensics person plus a police dept that were all too willing to believe he raped as well...he served 18yrs of a legitimate protested innocence...and the 'attention' that received, suddenly Steven Avery was someone and he was someone in a positive way, because he was an innocent man..people fought for him..'his supporters', he had the full attention of his parents, it became his life for 18yrs and in a perverted, disturbing way..something he likes....he was 'Steven Avery' an innocent man....so I think it became his 'comfort zone' almost but also gave him 'fame'...he killed Teresa I think because, he is a disturbed person, he's a killer...but being a guilty man would give him nothing that he'd been given before and nothing that he 'craved', so he had to try to become an innocent man and 'interfere' himself....
..I guess what I'm thinking as well, is of killers like Mark David Chapman who killed John Lennon, he wanted to be 'famous' and obviously an unwell mind...with Steven I don't think that he wanted to or craved until it came to him through incompetence and a conviction that was wrongful...through that, he got so much attention and I think that was a world that he wanted to live in again....so many people out her, fighting pleading his innocence and focusing on him...
Ohhhhh now that is a very very interesting theory Ammi :think: Definitely one to think about. It would be quite clever but very risky too, is he really that clever? Or incredibly stupid depending on how you look at it?
I need to digest this one properly :laugh:
Niamh.
08-02-2016, 10:26 AM
Clearly this programme is biased.
I know, I was so convinced of how innocent he was straight after I watched it, then i started googling lots when i was done and started feeling like an idiot for letting that show manipulate me so much, now I don't know where I stand on the whole thing, it is an intriguing case though
Niamh.
08-02-2016, 10:27 AM
One things for sure, this would never of been admissible in a British court and those detectives who interviewed Brenden certainly wouldn't be practising detectives any more. A confession doesn't make a person guilty unless there's proof to back that confession up. Brenden was a vulnerable teenager with intellectual impairment and its exactly this sort of person who will wrongly confess under pressure.
The entire conviction was unsafe because it lacked evidence and the evidence found pointed towards corruption.
The police officer who called in the Toyota registration 2 days before the car was found.
The key thob turning up and found by one of the police officers who was about to be financially burdened by Stevens compensation claim.
The key thob having none of the murder victims DNA but had Steve's DNA on it.
The blood file that had been tampered with and clearly had a needle mark in the top.
No blood in the garage or blood or bodily fluids in the bedroom.
A spent bullet which had been contaminated.
Inconsistent witness statements, especially over the time of day.
Deleted messages on the murder victims mobile phone.
Important footage of Brendan's interviews missing in the court room.
Relatives not investigated. There could of been very good reasons for sibling murder but they didn't bother to find out.
It all screams of a set up so far but I should watch it all before sticking with that conclusion.
Apparently those blood vials all have those needle marks in them, it's how they get the blood into the vials
Ohhhhh now that is a very very interesting theory Ammi :think: Definitely one to think about. It would be quite clever but very risky too, is he really that clever? Or incredibly stupid depending on how you look at it?
I need to digest this one properly :laugh:
..yeah I don't know if it was clever or not because 7 jury members at the start thought he was innocent so that could have gone either way...?...so maybe not clever in thinking it through either and the possibility of him not being convicted..but as soon as he was arrested, he was straight in with 'I'm innocent' and he (possibly..)..also factored in the added thing of the timing in killing her, when he was just about to win the lawsuit, so full 'support' with 'corrupt police' dept there as well....
..I just think the most logical is that he killed her....
..also with the blood vial, well that was contaminated by a complete incompetent who had got the wrong hair DNA in the first trial, she's basically useless...
Niamh.
08-02-2016, 10:31 AM
..yeah I don't know if it was clever or not because 7 jury members at the start thought he was innocent so that could have gone either way...?...so maybe not clever in thinking it through either and the possibility of him not being convicted..but as soon as he was arrested, he was straight in with 'I'm innocent' and he (possibly..)..also factored in the added thing of the timing in killing her, when he was just about to win the lawsuit, so full 'support' with 'corrupt police' dept there as well....
..I just think the most logical is that he killed her....
Yeah, I guess it would be quite smart really, it almost worked for him too, it was just that the 3 guilty jurors were obviously more stronger willed. he still might get out though
Niamh.
08-02-2016, 10:36 AM
Here DR, this is about the Blood Vial :
http://uproxx.com/tv/making-a-murderer-blood-vial-steven-avery/
Niamh.
08-02-2016, 10:50 AM
Have a look at this too DR
http://www.esquire.com/entertainment/tv/news/a41666/making-a-murderer-new-revelations/
Yeah, I guess it would be quite smart really, it almost worked for him too, it was just that the 3 guilty jurors were obviously more stronger willed. he still might get out though
...I know there was that one time that we heard, that he more or less said to his mum that he would kill himself...but it didn't feel as though he really meant it to me, but more...'well you better keep this up mum, you better keep focusing on me and my innocence, type thing...his parents whole lives are more or less dedicated to him now, as they have been for the last 28yrs or whatever it is in all...an attention, that maybe he loves, as well as public attention, possibly inmate attention of an 'innocent man', a huge wave of support, plus someone falling in love with him as well, because of his situation really...
Niamh.
08-02-2016, 10:58 AM
...I know there was that one time that we heard, that he more or less said to his mum that he would kill himself...but it didn't feel as though he really meant it to me, but more...'well you better keep this up mum, you better keep focusing on me and my innocence, type thing...his parents whole lives are more or less dedicated to him now, as they have been for the last 28yrs or whatever it is in all...an attention, that maybe he loves, as well as public attention, possibly inmate attention of an 'innocent man', a huge wave of support, plus someone falling in love with him as well, because of his situation really...
Yeah, i was thinking that too, it sounded more like a threat to his mother in a way, didn't it?
That woman and him split up now as well since the Documentary was made.
DemolitionRed
08-02-2016, 11:00 AM
Thanks Niamh, I wondered why that wasn't brought up in court.
I also just read here http://mic.com/articles/131662/steven-avery-5-things-to-know-about-man-at-center-of-making-a-murderer#.GYyKZIPSJ that he covered the cat in gasoline before throwing it on the fire. My sympathies wane for his imprisonment, (guilty or not) when I read stuff like that.
I'm not sure about his ex. There was something odd about her and I got the strong impression that she was likely a socipath. She appeared devoid of any emotion and when Steve mentioned getting her child back she said, "lets get you sorted out first". Most mothers wouldn't be able to think about anything other that bringing their child home but to date, it doesn't look like she's attempted to do that. I also got the impression that she didn't seem to care about him being guilty or not. If she believed he could of been guilty during the trial, why on earth would she of stood by him for as long as she did?.
So were they both sociopaths? they say that sociopaths often relate to other sociopaths and are more likely to have successful relationships with each other.
Niamh.
08-02-2016, 11:06 AM
Thanks Niamh, I wondered why that wasn't brought up in court.
I also just read here http://mic.com/articles/131662/steven-avery-5-things-to-know-about-man-at-center-of-making-a-murderer#.GYyKZIPSJ that he covered the cat in gasoline before throwing it on the fire. My sympathies wane for his imprisonment, (guilty or not) when I read stuff like that.
I'm not sure about his ex. There was something odd about her and I got the strong impression that she was likely a socipath. She appeared devoid of any emotion and when Steve mentioned getting her child back she said, "lets get you sorted out first". Most mothers wouldn't be able to think about anything other that bringing their child home but to date, it doesn't look like she's attempted to do that. I also got the impression that she didn't seem to care about him being guilty or not. If she believed he could of been guilty during the trial, why on earth would she of stood by him for as long as she did?.
So were they both sociopaths? they say that sociopaths often relate to other sociopaths and are more likely to have successful relationships with each other.
Yeah, he did that to the cat and also, I found that while watching the Documentary they made you feel sorry for and almost like Steve was the victim in the incident where he ran his cousin off the road and pulled a gun on her just because he said that she was making up stories about him? hhhmmmm i don't know. Also, 6 years of the 18 he spent in prison originally were justified and were for that crime that he definitely committed. I read somewhere too that he was trying to get his cousin into his car that day but let her go when he realised her child was in her car.
Not sure about his ex Jodi but his first wife was threatened by him too and none of his kids have anything to do with him. Weird though that she ended up marrying Brendans dad, I think they're all just a really strange bunch
Thanks Niamh, I wondered why that wasn't brought up in court.
I also just read here http://mic.com/articles/131662/steven-avery-5-things-to-know-about-man-at-center-of-making-a-murderer#.GYyKZIPSJ that he covered the cat in gasoline before throwing it on the fire. My sympathies wane for his imprisonment, (guilty or not) when I read stuff like that.
I'm not sure about his ex. There was something odd about her and I got the strong impression that she was likely a socipath. She appeared devoid of any emotion and when Steve mentioned getting her child back she said, "lets get you sorted out first". Most mothers wouldn't be able to think about anything other that bringing their child home but to date, it doesn't look like she's attempted to do that. I also got the impression that she didn't seem to care about him being guilty or not. If she believed he could of been guilty during the trial, why on earth would she of stood by him for as long as she did?.
So were they both sociopaths? they say that sociopaths often relate to other sociopaths and are more likely to have successful relationships with each other.
..I don't think there's a label tbh, I just think that they're a very creepy 'inbred' family in many ways..but I think Steven has a very unhealthy and disturbed mind and he got a taste of something he liked in his 18yrs of 'innocent', he stopped becoming a creep and became a full on focus of positive attention...from inside the family and from a public...
Yeah, he did that to the cat and also, I found that while watching the Documentary they made you feel sorry for and almost like Steve was the victim in the incident where he ran his cousin off the road and pulled a gun on her just because he said that she was making up stories about him? hhhmmmm i don't know. Also, 6 years of the 18 he spent in prison originally were justified and were for that crime that he definitely committed. I read somewhere too that he was trying to get his cousin into his car that day but let her go when he realised her child was in her car.
Not sure about his ex Jodi but his first wife was threatened by him too and none of his kids have anything to do with him. Weird though that she ended up marrying Brendans dad, I think they're all just a really strange bunch
..also a gun again and what we know for sure from her remains is that Teresa was shot in the head..all of the other stuff/rape/torture etc are things we don't know ever took place....
I started reading the court transcripts, haven't even got any further than the first day yet though, reading it is a bit of a chore because all the 'umming' 'ahhing' etc was annoying to read through :laugh:
The documentary does come across as biased but then the Manitowoc Sheriffs office, Teresa's family/friends and the prosecution team were asked to take part but refused so it was never gonna come across any other way tbh.
Also whether people think he's guilty or not I'm just glad the show has blew the whole thing wide open and the corruption from the Sheriffs department and throughout the court case has came to light, they both do really deserve a new fair trial.
Niamh.
08-02-2016, 11:54 AM
I started reading the court transcripts, haven't even got any further than the first day yet though, reading it is a bit of a chore because all the 'umming' 'ahhing' etc was annoying to read through :laugh:
The documentary does come across as biased but then the Manitowoc Sheriffs office, Teresa's family/friends and the prosecution team were asked to take part but refused so it was never gonna come across any other way tbh.
Also whether people think he's guilty or not I'm just glad the show has blew the whole thing wide open and the corruption from the Sheriffs department and throughout the court case has came to light, they both do really deserve a new fair trial.
Yeah absolutely and for me Brendans part in all this has been much more upsetting to watch and who I'd most feel sorry for. I mean there is no doubt in my mind that his confession should have been inadmissible based solely on the behaviour of his first lawyer, that was truly disgusting
..yeah I started to read them as well Josy, I thought right I'll get this small section done now but OMG, what is that um/em/urr stuff..I've never actually noticed witnesses or lawyers doing it when we see it but it takes up 50% of court time it seems...(so I didn't get very far..)...I do agree though totally, a fair trial is everyone's entitlement....
DemolitionRed
08-02-2016, 12:22 PM
Also whether people think he's guilty or not I'm just glad the show has blew the whole thing wide open and the corruption from the Sheriffs department and throughout the court case has came to light, they both do really deserve a new fair trial.
Absolutely. Regardless of whether they were guilty or not, it wasn't a fair trial. Brendan's defence lawyer was moronic and should of been struck off for breaking every rule in the book.
Absolutely. Regardless of whether they were guilty or not, it wasn't a fair trial. Brendan's defence lawyer was moronic and should of been struck off for breaking every rule in the book.
..he was a failed politician apparently (the first one..)...and only took the case on for the 'fame and fortune' as it were/the publicity...he had no interest in his client, I think I read that he had admitted that...I'm not sure if he's still practicing law or not actually...
Niamh.
08-02-2016, 01:02 PM
..he was a failed politician apparently (the first one..)...and only took the case on for the 'fame and fortune' as it were/the publicity...he had no interest in his client, I think I read that he had admitted that...I'm not sure if he's still practicing law or not actually...
Surely he isn't if he actually came out and admitted that? Disgraceful
Surely he isn't if he actually came out and admitted that? Disgraceful
..I'll try to find the link but I have so many links stored and looked at so many sites and articles that specific ones are impossible to bookmark...but he had apparently just run for a State office or something and lost ..and felt that involvement in this case would help with a law career instead.../such a high profile case...he always looked in interviews as though he was preening himself for the cameras and it was all about him, not Brendan...I never liked the look of him...
He is still practising law according to this 'where are they now' article: http://bgr.com/2016/01/21/making-a-murderer-where-are-they-now-james-lenk-colborn/
Niamh.
08-02-2016, 01:14 PM
He is still practising law according to this 'where are they now' article: http://bgr.com/2016/01/21/making-a-murderer-where-are-they-now-james-lenk-colborn/
:/
..I guess it worked for him, then/his law career...I wonder if he's 'small town cases' or if he gets some of the bigger cases to represent...
Niamh.
08-02-2016, 01:40 PM
..I guess it worked for him, then/his law career...I wonder if he's 'small town cases' or if he gets some of the bigger cases to represent...
who in their right mind would want him representing them though?
who in their right mind would want him representing them though?
....yeah I know, but he's obviously still working ...I've tried to think actually before I replied, to think well maybe this or that, but no I can't think who tbh...
...(maybe Wisconsin has lots of people not in their right minds who need defence attorneys..)..sorry Alex, I the love USA...
Niamh.
08-02-2016, 01:56 PM
....yeah I know, but he's obviously still working ...I've tried to think actually before I replied, to think well maybe this or that, but no I can't think who tbh...
...(maybe Wisconsin has lots of people not in their right minds who need defence attorneys..)..sorry Alex, I the love USA...
:fan:
DemolitionRed
08-02-2016, 03:43 PM
Kratz didn’t face a disciplinary hearing for the way he handled the Avery case but in 2010 his law license was suspended for four months and he was fined over $23,000. The disciplinary actions came after Kratz sent sexual texts to a victim of domestic abuse, while still working as the Calumet County D.A. and handling domestic abuse prosecution. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/ex-da-ken-kratzs-law-license-suspended-in-sexting-scandal/
Kachinsky is still an attorney in Wisconsin, where he continues to work in juvenile defense -- though his name has recently been removed from his firm's masthead.
http://www.inquisitr.com/2658949/len-kachinsky-lawyer-from-making-a-murderer-posts-about-cancer-on-facebook-as-law-firm-hides-bio/
Avery’s defense lawyer, Dean Strang still practices law and is also a lecturer at The University of Wisconism. He’s also had some of his work published including a book ‘Worse Than The Devil: Anarchists, Clarence Darrow, and Justice in a Time Of Terror’
Jerome Buting, the other defence lawyer is still an active lawyer and despite losing that infinite case, is still doing well today.
DemolitionRed
08-02-2016, 03:45 PM
..he was a failed politician apparently (the first one..)...and only took the case on for the 'fame and fortune' as it were/the publicity...he had no interest in his client, I think I read that he had admitted that...I'm not sure if he's still practicing law or not actually...
Plus he was a court appointed lawyer so Brendan didn't get to choose.
I wanted to throw things at my tv when the judge asked Brendan if he thought
Kachinsky was doing a good job.
That Len guy was a judge for a while
http://i67.tinypic.com/2ee975g.jpg
Plus he was a court appointed lawyer so Brendan didn't get to choose.
I wanted to throw things at my tv when the judge asked Brendan if he thought
Kachinsky was doing a good job.
..I bet your TV throwing urges started with his first words about Brandon, DR.. "we have a 16 year old who was, while morally and legally responsible, was heavily influenced by someone who was evil incarnate"
...such a... look at me, this is my moment not yours Brendon, speech and all polished and shiny/smiling into the cameras...all we were lacking was that Colgate smile sparkle... with the severity of the case, this was Brendon's life he was smiling about while he was almost checking his hair...I did warm to Dean Strang straight away though..a completely different first impression...
That Len guy was a judge for a while
..yeah you're right Josy, he had run for judge/not politician and came third or something just before the trial...this was his first court appointed case, so maybe he took it because he thought it could help with his career or was told it would....
Niamh.
08-02-2016, 08:23 PM
http://i67.tinypic.com/2ee975g.jpg
Who does he think did it then? And why is he so sure he knows who did or didn't do it?
Maybe his lawyer doesn't want him mentioning names or something.
Bit odd that he said at one point one of his brothers could have done it though.
That was his new layer that posted that on twiter
..I still think 'to all my supporters' that he has some kind of perverted addiction to being 'the innocent man' and the positive attention it gives him...:laugh:...
Niamh.
08-02-2016, 08:31 PM
He says "it's obvious who killed her" though, is it? Who then? :think:
Niamh.
08-02-2016, 08:31 PM
..I still think 'to all my supporters' that he has some kind of perverted addiction to being 'the innocent man' and the positive attention it gives him...:laugh:...
Yeah I think your theory is the best one yet :laugh:
Hes only started saying 'my supporters' since his family have been telling him of the petitions and stuff going on for both him and Brendan, some of the fb pages have nearly a million followers and they have been sending them both letters and money.
Drew.
08-02-2016, 08:34 PM
His family are raking in the money living the high life on behalf of him it seems
His family are raking in the money living the high life on behalf of him it seems
The family don't accept any money as far as I'm aware, all cheques have to be made out to the prisons for their accounts in there and then there's another fundraising thing for the lawyer for the new forensic tests and stuff
Oh wait apparently people send both Stevens mum and Brendans mum fuel cards for travelling to and fro the prisons
..the travel was around 120/150-ish miles away as well, wasn't it...
Brendan was only half an hour away but he was moved a couple of weeks ago and it's around 3 hour drive there and the same back.
Not sure about Steven or where he is etc
DemolitionRed
08-02-2016, 09:17 PM
..I bet your TV throwing urges started with his first words about Brandon, DR.. "we have a 16 year old who was, while morally and legally responsible, was heavily influenced by someone who was evil incarnate"
...such a... look at me, this is my moment not yours Brendon, speech and all polished and shiny/smiling into the cameras...all we were lacking was that Colgate smile sparkle... with the severity of the case, this was Brendon's life he was smiling about while he was almost checking his hair...I did warm to Dean Strang straight away though..a completely different first impression...
Court appointed lawyers tend to be the crud that nobody else wants but this guy was unbelievable.
Whilst we may moan about people in this country getting of on technicalities, I'm glad we're not tolerant of crooked lawyers or get away with kangaroo courts like that.
I really liked Strang as well. He reminded me a lot of my dentist for some strange reason. :hehe:
Niamh.
08-02-2016, 09:32 PM
Court appointed lawyers tend to be the crud that nobody else wants but this guy was unbelievable.
Whilst we may moan about people in this country getting of on technicalities, I'm glad we're not tolerant of crooked lawyers or get away with kangaroo courts like that.
I really liked Strang as well. He reminded me a lot of my dentist for some strange reason. :hehe:
I read in one article as well that because both Strang and Buting are such likeable guys and Kratz is such a creep it's much easier to see Steve as the good guy and the state as the baddies :laugh:
Strang reminded me of Michael McIntyre
GiRTh
08-02-2016, 09:42 PM
Court appointed lawyers tend to be the crud that nobody else wants but this guy was unbelievable.
Whilst we may moan about people in this country getting of on technicalities, I'm glad we're not tolerant of crooked lawyers or get away with kangaroo courts like that.
I really liked Strang as well. He reminded me a lot of my dentist for some strange reason. :hehe:
http://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2016/jan/04/dean-strang-making-a-murderer-netflix-sex-symbol
:hehe:
Niamh.
08-02-2016, 09:58 PM
http://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2016/jan/04/dean-strang-making-a-murderer-netflix-sex-symbol
:hehe:
Steady on now, I wouldn't go that far :hehe:
...Girth revealing his secret crush, eh...:fan:...so it was never anything to do with conspiracies or an interesting case hmmm, it was always Dean, was it...
GiRTh
09-02-2016, 07:25 AM
http://i1298.photobucket.com/albums/ag50/Geoff_Taylor/agent-strang_zpscpqgnabg.jpg (http://s1298.photobucket.com/user/Geoff_Taylor/media/agent-strang_zpscpqgnabg.jpg.html)
..I know my theory is way out there and probably nothing like but the more I think about it, the more I'm still leaning toward Steven being guilty because it's the most logical and most probable/the last person to see her alive...there are lots of possible suspects, I know...and suspicious behaviour could be interpreted with many but Steven has a disturbing 'profile' and her charred remains/car lead to him...anything else to me would just involve too many 'coincidence' type things/maybe two people (the killer and the police dept..).. working at the same time to frame him etc...so we can look at possibilities, and yes...these things are possible, we can always make paths fit but just less probable than the more obvious to me...and isn't it usually the obvious...
...I think it was Girth that said...hmmm, but the timing of it, when he was just about to win a huge lawsuit, well that doesn't sit right....and yeah, that's a possible thing but then if you flip that over, then the timing of someone/Teresa being murdered at that 'perfect time' as well/what were the chances..?..OMG, look at this, we can use this to convict him again and all solved/how great did this turn out, phew.....I do think that there were mistakes made though and the police entered the property in an eagerness to arrest him, but that doesn't mean to say that they weren't correct to feel for sure it was him...and probably lessons to be learned in general..also some complete incompetence....the forensic specialist, well she messed up in both crimes..(for all we know she may have messed up in 20 crimes, but we only know of these 2, so is she basically unable to do her job..?..)...I mean, a judicial system just can't have people with such a vital, key role, being inept..so that seriously needs looking at...I guess that I disagree with DR as well in that what this is highlighted are 'human failings/flaws/errors' and I think this could and probably happens with any justice system/here in the UK as well, it's just that we're not so aware of them but there are wrongful convictions etc and mistakes made, for the simple reason of 'human'...but all in all, these are still systems that we have to put faith in because they're all we have and for the most part, do work....we just have to put trust in, the same way as we do with surgeons etc and trusting with our lives..but humans are open to error...
..I don't know with Brendon, of his involvement/if any or none at all but he's a very vulnerable and pliable person so would fairly much, I think...do or say whatever was asked of him..'Brendon can you...'..'yes of course..'...so if he did play a part in Teresa's murder, yes manipulated and instructed into doing it, I would think, so of a much lesser guilt but can that mean he's not a danger to the public, should he be a free man..if in an environment of 'bad/evil', could he do again...but placed in a good and positive environment though..how could that be guaranteed, it couldn't...he to me is the ultimate of complete failings everywhere around him, just so terrible sad...
...I do think the thing is here as Josy has said and has been said from the get go..'the right to a fair trial' for both of them but at the same time...can either ever have that now/is that even a possibility/has that 'right' passed because of the time lapse now...sadly I'm not sure that's possible anymore...but I do think because of any other explanation, involving coincidences/coming togethers/and highly complicated things/corruptions involving multiple persons etc, that my logic is saying that Steven is most likely guilty and killed Teresa...
http://i1298.photobucket.com/albums/ag50/Geoff_Taylor/agent-strang_zpscpqgnabg.jpg (http://s1298.photobucket.com/user/Geoff_Taylor/media/agent-strang_zpscpqgnabg.jpg.html)
...:laugh:...see you got there in the end, Girth...you know we wouldn't have judged you if you had just said that at the beginning...we're all understanding of a bit of Dean love....
...actually it looks as though he has nail polish on his toes in that pic...you like that, eh...his feminine side..:wink:...
Niamh.
09-02-2016, 10:07 AM
http://i1298.photobucket.com/albums/ag50/Geoff_Taylor/agent-strang_zpscpqgnabg.jpg (http://s1298.photobucket.com/user/Geoff_Taylor/media/agent-strang_zpscpqgnabg.jpg.html)
:laugh2:
Niamh.
09-02-2016, 10:11 AM
..I know my theory is way out there and probably nothing like but the more I think about it, the more I'm still leaning toward Steven being guilty because it's the most logical and most probable/the last person to see her alive...there are lots of possible suspects, I know...and suspicious behaviour could be interpreted with many but Steven has a disturbing 'profile' and her charred remains/car lead to him...anything else to me would just involve too many 'coincidence' type things/maybe two people (the killer and the police dept..).. working at the same time to frame him etc...so we can look at possibilities, and yes...these things are possible, we can always make paths fit but just less probable than the more obvious to me...and isn't it usually the obvious...
...I think it was Girth that said...hmmm, but the timing of it, when he was just about to win a huge lawsuit, well that doesn't sit right....and yeah, that's a possible thing but then if you flip that over, then the timing of someone/Teresa being murdered at that 'perfect time' as well/what were the chances..?..OMG, look at this, we can use this to convict him again and all solved/how great did this turn out, phew.....I do think that there were mistakes made though and the police entered the property in an eagerness to arrest him, but that doesn't mean to say that they weren't correct to feel for sure it was him...and probably lessons to be learned in general..also some complete incompetence....the forensic specialist, well she messed up in both crimes..(for all we know she may have messed up in 20 crimes, but we only know of these 2, so is she basically unable to do her job..?..)...I mean, a judicial system just can't have people with such a vital, key role, being inept..so that seriously needs looking at...I guess that I disagree with DR as well in that what this is highlighted are 'human failings/flaws/errors' and I think this could and probably happens with any justice system/here in the UK as well, it's just that we're not so aware of them but there are wrongful convictions etc and mistakes made, for the simple reason of 'human'...but all in all, these are still systems that we have to put faith in because they're all we have and for the most part, do work....we just have to put trust in, the same way as we do with surgeons etc and trusting with our lives..but humans are open to error...
..I don't know with Brendon, of his involvement/if any or none at all but he's a very vulnerable and pliable person so would fairly much, I think...do or say whatever was asked of him..'Brendon can you...'..'yes of course..'...so if he did play a part in Teresa's murder, yes manipulated and instructed into doing it, I would think, so of a much lesser guilt but can that mean he's not a danger to the public, should he be a free man..if in an environment of 'bad/evil', could he do again...but placed in a good and positive environment though..how could that be guaranteed, it couldn't...he to me is the ultimate of complete failings everywhere around him, just so terrible sad...
...I do think the thing is here as Josy has said and has been said from the get go..'the right to a fair trial' for both of them but at the same time...can either ever have that now/is that even a possibility/has that 'right' passed because of the time lapse now...sadly I'm not sure that's possible anymore...but I do think because of any other explanation, involving coincidences/coming togethers/and highly complicated things/corruptions involving multiple persons etc, that my logic is saying that Steven is most likely guilty and killed Teresa...
Yeah I wasn't joking when i said I liked your theory, personally i think it's most plausible.
Yeah the timing could be considered off but then again when would be the ideal time to murder someone if you're a murderer? When he's won his lawsuit and has 36million? Does money stop a murderer from being a murderer? I don't think so
Niamh.
09-02-2016, 10:12 AM
...actually it looks as though he has nail polish on his toes in that pic...you like that, eh...his feminine side..:wink:...
That's not nail polish, that's Steve Avery's blood :o
user104658
09-02-2016, 10:43 AM
That's not nail polish, that's Steve Avery's blood :o
"If Steve's blood on my toes looks the ****, YOU MUST AQUIT!"
Niamh.
09-02-2016, 10:45 AM
"If Steve's blood on my toes looks the ****, YOU MUST AQUIT!"
:laugh:
If the blood on my toes makes me look filthy, then it's pretty obvious that Steve is NOT GUILTY!!
user104658
09-02-2016, 11:17 AM
:laugh:
If the blood on my toes makes me look filthy, then it's pretty obvious that Steve is NOT GUILTY!!
"If you think blood on my toes makes me look a bit flirty, let's head to Avery's yard and start gettin' dirty"
user104658
09-02-2016, 11:20 AM
FFS who makes these things:
https://41.media.tumblr.com/e3917c10342fd3a3253ac445a1950099/tumblr_o0iqg8Xbm51ql1yd0o1_500.png
:joker:
Niamh.
09-02-2016, 11:21 AM
"If you think blood on my toes makes me look a bit flirty, let's head to Avery's yard and start gettin' dirty"
"If the Blood on my toes came from that Vial, then don't you agree Steve deserves a new trial?"
Niamh.
09-02-2016, 11:22 AM
FFS who makes these things:
https://41.media.tumblr.com/e3917c10342fd3a3253ac445a1950099/tumblr_o0iqg8Xbm51ql1yd0o1_500.png
:joker:
My moms husband was very impressed by the fact he had a Hurling statue in his office
http://i.imgur.com/vNK06V2.jpg?1
user104658
09-02-2016, 11:23 AM
"If the Blood on my toes came from that Vial, then don't you agree Steve deserves a new trial?"
"If Avery's blood's only where Avery goes,
how do you explain that it's coating my toes?
I'll tell you fine jurors; it came from a vial,
And THAT is why Avery should get a new trial."
Case dismissed drop the ****ing mic.
Niamh.
09-02-2016, 11:26 AM
"If Avery's blood's only where Avery goes,
how do you explain that it's coating my toes?
I'll tell you fine jurors; it came from a vial,
And THAT is why Avery should get a new trial.
Case dismissed drop the ****ing mic."
:laugh2:
http://www.vogue.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/06/BrowserPreview_tmp-5.gif
..if you had blood on your toes and it's not there anymore..don't worry, you'll probably find it on a RAV4...
Niamh.
10-02-2016, 09:41 AM
..if you had blood on your toes and it's not there anymore..don't worry, you'll probably find it on a RAV4...
:laugh2:
..you know what I think (atm..)...and this a bit way out there, I know..(which is why I only voiced it privately to Drew a while ago and then said I would shoot him and burn his body if he ever said anything..)...
..I don't think that the police interfered as much as we think they did, I think they did go onto his property illegally and find Teresa's car so that's been suspicious..but I think that Steven killed Teresa and then himself 'planted evidence' and he did that because he wanted it to be the same as before/the conspiracies and the suspicions etc, so he had to remove evidence and then plant it...it's the most logical thing that the killer is the one who had her car key and I believe he killed her...the dna/sweat/blood..?..well...(those are all things he could get from himself and he seems like a bit of a sweaty person..)...and the charred bones obviously, although he may not have so much planted them later, as burned her body later....
...the 'psychology' I think is a little like I said in another post about Brendon, that he seemed to lead an 'invisible' life in terms of his family/social groups etc and the only pic I've seen him smiling in was one which was taken in prison, that maybe prison has given him something..?...and ok, well he wouldn't have smiled that much with what he was going through/nothing to smile about...but then what would there be to smile about in prison either and I've googled so many pics, not one of him smiling except that one...
..anyway, that's Brendon...with Steven, well not many people seemed to think of the whole family in anything but a negative way/that creepy weirdo family, type thing...and within the family environment itself..?...again, brother, cousins, nephews etc...all probably a little 'invisible'...so Steven was also a disturbed mind as well..(I think..)...had he have been convicted for the original 6 years for threatening his cousin with a gun/jumping out at her etc...he would have been a guilty man, serving a sentence, nothing more than that...as it was and because of an incompetent forensics person plus a police dept that were all too willing to believe he raped as well...he served 18yrs of a legitimate protested innocence...and the 'attention' that received, suddenly Steven Avery was someone and he was someone in a positive way, because he was an innocent man..people fought for him..'his supporters', he had the full attention of his parents, it became his life for 18yrs and in a perverted, disturbing way..something he likes....he was 'Steven Avery' an innocent man....so I think it became his 'comfort zone' almost but also gave him 'fame'...he killed Teresa I think because, he is a disturbed person, he's a killer...but being a guilty man would give him nothing that he'd been given before and nothing that he 'craved', so he had to try to become an innocent man and 'interfere' himself....
..I guess what I'm thinking as well, is of killers like Mark David Chapman who killed John Lennon, he wanted to be 'famous' and obviously an unwell mind...with Steven I don't think that he wanted to or craved until it came to him through incompetence and a conviction that was wrongful...through that, he got so much attention and I think that was a world that he wanted to live in again....so many people out her, fighting pleading his innocence and focusing on him...
Thanks for the link to this thread Ammi....I've now watched it all and read most everything here. Another addict!
I'm not sure about that theory Ammi. If Avery killed Theresa so he could once again be the 'framed' innocent man wasn't he taking an enormous risk by going overboard with his 'planted evidence' to the extent that he wouldn't seem even slightly innocent at all, but glaringly guilty?
Not just planting the key himself and planting his sweat and blood in her car, but leaving her car on his premises, not removing her remains from the fire pit and drum etc, planting a bullet in his garage etc? How would any of that point to any doubt at all as to his guilt, in his own mind? There would have been no innocent man wrongly convicted, but a guilty man locked away for life.
He wouldn't have known beforehand that the Manatowoc county guys would enter his premises when they shouldn't have, therefore throwing particular suspicion on them (given the past history) for planting the key, bullet, blood etc. Once they had entered a few times, I believe Steve and his family weren't allowed back on their premises for some time? so maybe he couldn't have planted the key/bullet later. I'm pretty sure the bullet at least was found when the family were holed up somewhere else and it hadn't been in the garage when searched many times previously. He wouldn't have wiped the key clean of Teresa's dna and left his own on it if he wanted it to appear he was framed.
Also, the millions that were about to be his....he wouldn't have been a 'nobody' but a very rich man in his community... with all the clout that comes with that for many people. He and his family had been poor all their lives, looked down upon - wouldn't he have felt how good it would be to rub his riches in the faces of those who had looked upon them as 'scum'? Why kill someone at THAT time just for the attention of a dubious 'innocent man wrongly convicted' storyline again?
On the other hand, if he killed her because he is evil or perverted, not for the innocent man wrongly convicted tag, why would he leave her car on the premises and burn her body in his own firepit? What about the stench of a burning body?
Or if he burned her body somewhere else, why would he move it to his firepit? Why partially cover the car with some branches so instead of hiding it, it only made it stand out among the other cars? Why not drive her car with the body in it somewhere well away and dispose of it instead of leaving both right there practically in his own backyard? He doesn't seem crazy or stupid enough for that.
So although I dislike the man a lot, at the moment I'm thinking innocent.
And that poor Brendan was just used by police. I've no idea how any jury could have found him guilty beyond reasonable doubt...
Thanks for the link to this thread Ammi....I've now watched it all and read most everything here. Another addict!
I'm not sure about that theory Ammi. If Avery killed Theresa so he could once again be the 'framed' innocent man wasn't he taking an enormous risk by going overboard with his 'planted evidence' to the extent that he wouldn't seem even slightly innocent at all, but glaringly guilty?
Not just planting the key himself and planting his sweat and blood in her car, but leaving her car on his premises, not removing her remains from the fire pit and drum etc, planting a bullet in his garage etc? How would any of that point to any doubt at all as to his guilt, in his own mind? There would have been no innocent man wrongly convicted, but a guilty man locked away for life.
He wouldn't have known beforehand that the Manatowoc county guys would enter his premises when they shouldn't have, therefore throwing particular suspicion on them (given the past history) for planting the key, bullet, blood etc. Once they had entered a few times, I believe Steve and his family weren't allowed back on their premises for some time? so maybe he couldn't have planted the key/bullet later. I'm pretty sure the bullet at least was found when the family were holed up somewhere else and it hadn't been in the garage when searched many times previously. He wouldn't have wiped the key clean of Teresa's dna and left his own on it if he wanted it to appear he was framed.
Also, the millions that were about to be his....he wouldn't have been a 'nobody' but a very rich man in his community... with all the clout that comes with that for many people. He and his family had been poor all their lives, looked down upon - wouldn't he have felt how good it would be to rub his riches in the faces of those who had looked upon them as 'scum'? Why kill someone at THAT time just for the attention of a dubious 'innocent man wrongly convicted' storyline again?
On the other hand, if he killed her because he is evil or perverted, not for the innocent man wrongly convicted tag, why would he leave her car on the premises and burn her body in his own firepit? What about the stench of a burning body?
Or if he burned her body somewhere else, why would he move it to his firepit? Why partially cover the car with some branches so instead of hiding it, it only made it stand out among the other cars? Why not drive her car with the body in it somewhere well away and dispose of it instead of leaving both right there practically in his own backyard? He doesn't seem crazy or stupid enough for that.
So although I dislike the man a lot, at the moment I'm thinking innocent.
And that poor Brendan was just used by police. I've no idea how any jury could have found him guilty beyond reasonable doubt...
...ahhh you found us..:love:..I was hoping that you would and have been looking forward to your thoughts on this jet...have you researched any other sites of things that we didn't see in the series yet..?...I'm so sorry that I don't have time to actually read your thoughts this morning/work etc but I will read your post thoroughly later...and welcome to the world of obsession..:laugh:...
This is the top reasons why I'm back to thinking 100% okay maybe 99% not guilty...
Where is all the blood/dna in the trailer and garage?
It's very possible that Avery Salvage wasn't Teresa's last stop.
Why would Steven and Brendan miraculously (and impossibly imo) clean every single piece of blood/dna evidence from the trailer/garage then drive her car to the other side of the yard and just leave it there where anyone could find it especially as they have use of a crusher then go 100 miles away with the rest of the family to the cabin for 3/4 days. I mean they aren't the most sensible people in the world but c'mon now.
The 'damning evidence' that prosecution said were left out of the show isn't damning at all in fact most of is pretty far fetched and slightly embellished.
No motive and why would someone that had spent 18 years in prison and who was due to get a huge payout want to risk everything to go back?
Manitowoc County Sheriffs are completely corrupt.
They both had alibi's
Not one other person was ever investigated, asked for alibis and so on which to me is very strange considering messages had been deleted from her voicemail and some close to her had admitting 'hacking' her phone passwords.
And the fact that they needed and eyewitness so badly then along comes Brendan who added to Steves alibi of being not guilty and the ridiculous coerced 'confession' comes into it.
DemolitionRed
12-02-2016, 08:21 AM
What I want to know is, why didn't Brendan's defence lawyer jump in and correct the prosecutor when he was initially talking to the jury and claiming there was blood seeping up out of the concrete in the garage floor?.
Josy, the blood in the trailer/garage question - My thoughts.....Wasn't the only evidence they found that caused death a gunshot to the head? I'm thinking Teresa's throat wasn't slit at all as anything Brendan said could be put down to police trying to get details out of him and unfortunately for them some of it didn't fit as he was making it up 'to please them'. As the only place her blood was found (if I remember correctly) was in her car, then after such a supposedly violent death (stabbing, shooting) then she couldn't have met her end that way in Steve's trailer or garage.
Once Brendan had told the police on tape and video that is where it happened, they had to go with that. I'm amazed the jury let the blood question go unanswered. I couldn't have found him guilty on that point alone.
As we only have Brendan's story about the throat slitting and shooting, and I think he is innocent and he wasn't there at all, then there would be no blood in those area's, as there wasn't.
Which means Steve didn't kill her, or he killed her elsewhere.
Which doesn't help lol and as I'm new to this thread all this may have been said before....
Josy, the blood in the trailer/garage question - My thoughts.....Wasn't the only evidence they found that caused death a gunshot to the head? I'm thinking Teresa's throat wasn't slit at all as anything Brendan said could be put down to police trying to get details out of him and unfortunately for them some of it didn't fit as he was making it up 'to please them'. As the only place her blood was found (if I remember correctly) was in her car, then after such a supposedly violent death (stabbing, shooting) then she couldn't have met her end that way in Steve's trailer or garage.
Once Brendan had told the police on tape and video that is where it happened, they had to go with that. I'm amazed the jury let the blood question go unanswered. I couldn't have found him guilty on that point alone.
As we only have Brendan's story about the throat slitting and shooting, and I think he is innocent and he wasn't there at all, then there would be no blood in those area's, as there wasn't.
Which means Steve didn't kill her, or he killed her elsewhere.
Which doesn't help lol and as I'm new to this thread all this may have been said before....
Exactly, yet both of them were found guilty (one of killing her or being party to in the garage and one of killing her or being party to in the trailer)
Which goes back to the main point of the whole trial and investigation being a complete farce and both being entitled to at least a new fair trial.
I don't believe any of the stuff from Brendan's story happened at all, you could see they were pushing at him to mention a gun/Teresa being shot but he guessed at lots of other things first and then they had no choice but to include all that because they wanted to use what he eventually said about her being shot.
And then Kratz really had a field day with feeding all the gory information to the media, something that should never have happened.
..Brendan's 'confession' of Teresa's murder was something he said at his trial that he had seen in a movie 'Kiss the Girls'/something similar, I think it was Matt that posted that...
..as well as Kratz, it was the judge as well, not only what he allowed but his words as well...the linking and talking about Avery's past crime of brutal rape, when that had already been established as being false and he was completely innocent and also one of the charges which he was found guilty of in his murder conviction...wasn't that of a felon illegally owning a firearm..?...but surely he wasn't a felon though...?...
Thanks for the link to this thread Ammi....I've now watched it all and read most everything here. Another addict!
I'm not sure about that theory Ammi. If Avery killed Theresa so he could once again be the 'framed' innocent man wasn't he taking an enormous risk by going overboard with his 'planted evidence' to the extent that he wouldn't seem even slightly innocent at all, but glaringly guilty?
Not just planting the key himself and planting his sweat and blood in her car, but leaving her car on his premises, not removing her remains from the fire pit and drum etc, planting a bullet in his garage etc? How would any of that point to any doubt at all as to his guilt, in his own mind? There would have been no innocent man wrongly convicted, but a guilty man locked away for life.
He wouldn't have known beforehand that the Manatowoc county guys would enter his premises when they shouldn't have, therefore throwing particular suspicion on them (given the past history) for planting the key, bullet, blood etc. Once they had entered a few times, I believe Steve and his family weren't allowed back on their premises for some time? so maybe he couldn't have planted the key/bullet later. I'm pretty sure the bullet at least was found when the family were holed up somewhere else and it hadn't been in the garage when searched many times previously. He wouldn't have wiped the key clean of Teresa's dna and left his own on it if he wanted it to appear he was framed.
Also, the millions that were about to be his....he wouldn't have been a 'nobody' but a very rich man in his community... with all the clout that comes with that for many people. He and his family had been poor all their lives, looked down upon - wouldn't he have felt how good it would be to rub his riches in the faces of those who had looked upon them as 'scum'? Why kill someone at THAT time just for the attention of a dubious 'innocent man wrongly convicted' storyline again?
On the other hand, if he killed her because he is evil or perverted, not for the innocent man wrongly convicted tag, why would he leave her car on the premises and burn her body in his own firepit? What about the stench of a burning body?
Or if he burned her body somewhere else, why would he move it to his firepit? Why partially cover the car with some branches so instead of hiding it, it only made it stand out among the other cars? Why not drive her car with the body in it somewhere well away and dispose of it instead of leaving both right there practically in his own backyard? He doesn't seem crazy or stupid enough for that.
So although I dislike the man a lot, at the moment I'm thinking innocent.
And that poor Brendan was just used by police. I've no idea how any jury could have found him guilty beyond reasonable doubt...
....hmmm, but with all of that evidence as it is right now, he isn't glaringly guilty though, that's the thing..?..(if that theory were true, which I'm not totally convinced of myself, the case is too complicated/wouldn't that mean that he more or less got it just right/'planting in stages etc'..he couldn't be found innocent and not convicted and he couldn't be a guilty man either...and that's where we're at right now..?..)...there is probably no doubt that the person who murdered her had her car key and no doubt that he had his own DNA to 'plant', rather than more complicated and corruption explanations...
..yeah, I do understand what you're saying about him being a rich man, making him 'someone' in his mind..?...but then, that would also be a 'sound/logical mind' thought ..maybe in his unhealthy and disturbed mind, that would have just given him 'the same nobody but with money'..?...more about the genuine respect/support he felt in his thoughts, that being an 'innocent man' gave him in those 18yrs...(actually if it were a true theory, it really would be 'the making of a murderer' in that he was made that murderer in prison...
..I guess my train of thought with the theory anyway, came from the thing that we don't know for sure anything other than Teresa was shot in the head and her body burned...and a shot to the head feeling to me more like an 'execution'...for some reason that's really bugging me and not the 'profile' of this sort of murder...so if we look at the potential suspects but count out Steven as being innocent, but being framed..?...why then when that murderer would want everything to point to Steven would they burn the body...they had planted the car on his property, they pretty much knew he would be the number 1 suspect, so why not leave her body in the car/leave the keys in the car etc...?..surely a risk to start 'planting' when they could have just driven away after leaving all evidence in one place and be pretty certain he would be convicted..?...and also that 'murderer' going back to the property to plant after a time when they would know that the property would surely have had police/forensics around constantly..a huge risk of being found putting her remains outside the garage, in a full open area..also his van/trailer where he lived, being something that seems to be a place that could be easily seen with people going in and out of...so are we saying that the police themselves actually murdered someone because of the lawsuit he was about to win..?..hmmm, that would be hard to believe tbh, corruption possibly but murder...
..one of the things that's really bugging me as well is the whole timing...oh how convenient that he should be convicted of murder just before he was about to win....but how 'convenient' also that Teresa be killed/that anyone be murdered just before as well ..in a county that was meant to have comparatively little serious crimes like that...
....hmmm, but with all of that evidence as it is right now, he isn't glaringly guilty though, that's the thing..?..(if that theory were true, which I'm not totally convinced of myself, the case is too complicated/wouldn't that mean that he more or less got it just right/'planting in stages etc'..he couldn't be found innocent and not convicted and he couldn't be a guilty man either...and that's where we're at right now..?..)...there is probably no doubt that the person who murdered her had her car key and no doubt that he had his own DNA to 'plant', rather than more complicated and corruption explanations...
..yeah, I do understand what you're saying about him being a rich man, making him 'someone' in his mind..?...but then, that would also be a 'sound/logical mind' thought ..maybe in his unhealthy and disturbed mind, that would have just given him 'the same nobody but with money'..?...more about the genuine respect/support he felt in his thoughts, that being an 'innocent man' gave him in those 18yrs...(actually if it were a true theory, it really would be 'the making of a murderer' in that he was made that murderer in prison...
..I guess my train of thought with the theory anyway, came from the thing that we don't know for sure anything other than Teresa was shot in the head and her body burned...and a shot to the head feeling to me more like an 'execution'...for some reason that's really bugging me and not the 'profile' of this sort of murder...so if we look at the potential suspects but count out Steven as being innocent, but being framed..?...why then when that murderer would want everything to point to Steven would they burn the body...they had planted the car on his property, they pretty much knew he would be the number 1 suspect, so why not leave her body in the car/leave the keys in the car etc...?..surely a risk to start 'planting' when they could have just driven away after leaving all evidence in one place and be pretty certain he would be convicted..?...and also that 'murderer' going back to the property to plant after a time when they would know that the property would surely have had police/forensics around constantly..a huge risk of being found putting her remains outside the garage, in a full open area..also his van/trailer where he lived, being something that seems to be a place that could be easily seen with people going in and out of...so are we saying that the police themselves actually murdered someone because of the lawsuit he was about to win..?..hmmm, that would be hard to believe tbh, corruption possibly but murder...
..one of the things that's really bugging me as well is the whole timing...oh how convenient that he should be convicted of murder just before he was about to win....but how 'convenient' also that Teresa be killed/that anyone be murdered just before as well ..in a county that was meant to have comparatively little serious crimes like that...
I think the theory that he framed himself only fits 'after the fact' - it fits in well with what transpired after the murder, but could it fit if it was 'planned'? Could he have been smart enough to get it all right, could everything he hoped would happen fall beautifully into place? There are too many things that could have gone wrong. What if he was arrested within days and couldn't plant the key, and later, the bullet? (I wish I knew when he and the family were removed from their home and weren't allowed back for 6 weeks.) What if someone had seen him moving her body to the firepit to be burnt? etc. Now it is being reported that Teresa had a BUNCH of keys, not just one, and they have never been found. :conf:
And all those years in prison when nothing is happening for long long periods between appeals etc. No attention, no real hope. He already had experience of that for 18 yrs...at his age would he want all that again? I wouldn't. But then he might have been very disturbed, as you say, and I'm of a sound mind. IMO. :hehe: AND he did seem very laid back and unperturbed when convicted again, almost as if he was enjoying it, so....it's all a bit of a mind **** isn't it? :shrug:
What do you think of the police/Bobby Dassey/Scotty T theory that was linked back on page one?
The fact her body was burnt is the one thing that convinces me she was raped. If her body was found intact, there would have been an autopsy and evidence of the rapist's dna would have been found. This, to me, points to Bobby Dassey and Scotty T. They were the ones that said they saw Teresa talking to Steve. They only had alibis for each other. Bobby had scratches on his back. They gave some unconvincing evidence at the trial. They could have kidnapped her, taken her into the woods and raped her, then like many rapists before them, shot her so she couldn't tell. They burn her body in the woods, put the remains in the drum and throw them into Steve's firepit. They drive the car to the yard, put some branches around it so it would stand out among the other cars (for it wasn't exactly camouflaged, was it?)
Now....what if the police knew or strongly suspected the 2 of them. They could have found something incriminating that they didn't reveal - not even to Dassey and Scotty T themselves. That would account for why they didn't even bother to take fingerprints, dna samples etc from them, or anyone else around the yard for that matter. They didn't want them to be found out - they wanted Steve. And they go on to plant the key, the bullet, the blood etc as outlined in that linked theory.
Do you think we will ever know? I read there is going to be a retrial with a new lawyer...
user104658
13-02-2016, 02:24 PM
To have framed himself to set up this whole narrative, Avery would have to have genius-level intelligence and unless he's pulling the ultimate "Keyser Soze", he just doesn't have that sort of intellect.
Also... No... Sadly I don't think we'll ever know what happened to the girl. If Avery and Brendan are found not to have done it and released, even proven conclusively to be innocent, they will still never be able to charge anyone else with the murder. Any ability to investigate further, and more evidence there might once have been, will have been gone or tainted for years by now.
I think the theory that he framed himself only fits 'after the fact' - it fits in well with what transpired after the murder, but could it fit if it was 'planned'? Could he have been smart enough to get it all right, could everything he hoped would happen fall beautifully into place? There are too many things that could have gone wrong. What if he was arrested within days and couldn't plant the key, and later, the bullet? (I wish I knew when he and the family were removed from their home and weren't allowed back for 6 weeks.) What if someone had seen him moving her body to the firepit to be burnt? etc. Now it is being reported that Teresa had a BUNCH of keys, not just one, and they have never been found. :conf:
And all those years in prison when nothing is happening for long long periods between appeals etc. No attention, no real hope. He already had experience of that for 18 yrs...at his age would he want all that again? I wouldn't. But then he might have been very disturbed, as you say, and I'm of a sound mind. IMO. :hehe: AND he did seem very laid back and unperturbed when convicted again, almost as if he was enjoying it, so....it's all a bit of a mind **** isn't it? :shrug:
What do you think of the police/Bobby Dassey/Scotty T theory that was linked back on page one?
The fact her body was burnt is the one thing that convinces me she was raped. If her body was found intact, there would have been an autopsy and evidence of the rapist's dna would have been found. This, to me, points to Bobby Dassey and Scotty T. They were the ones that said they saw Teresa talking to Steve. They only had alibis for each other. Bobby had scratches on his back. They gave some unconvincing evidence at the trial. They could have kidnapped her, taken her into the woods and raped her, then like many rapists before them, shot her so she couldn't tell. They burn her body in the woods, put the remains in the drum and throw them into Steve's firepit. They drive the car to the yard, put some branches around it so it would stand out among the other cars (for it wasn't exactly camouflaged, was it?)
Now....what if the police knew or strongly suspected the 2 of them. They could have found something incriminating that they didn't reveal - not even to Dassey and Scotty T themselves. That would account for why they didn't even bother to take fingerprints, dna samples etc from them, or anyone else around the yard for that matter. They didn't want them to be found out - they wanted Steve. And they go on to plant the key, the bullet, the blood etc as outlined in that linked theory.
Do you think we will ever know? I read there is going to be a retrial with a new lawyer...
....hmmm, see I like this theory as well..(the thing is that it's so complicated and with many potential suspects because there seem to have been many 'suspicious' things, that in honing in on one theory, it's easy to lose sight of other things as well because I forgot the scratches on his back..)...yeah, I did also suspect Bobby and Scott T as well at the beginning...it would also be a 'less complicated' theory as well, wouldn't it...maybe they didn't even take Teresa elsewhere but could have killed her on the property somewhere/nowhere near any of their homes, there were 40 acres..?...and they were going hunting so had their guns all ready to go, I would think also that gun shots/a gun shot wouldn't be an unusual thing or necessarily drawn alarm/attention because there must have been much target practice there, surely..?..so maybe she was always on the property but hidden..has it been proven btw that the incinerator wasn't in use at that time...?...could her body have been burned there and then remains planted in Steven's fire-pit after it was obvious that he was the main suspect because the police knew she had visited..?..so maybe not even intending to frame Steven at the time/not thinking that far ahead but seeing an opportunity to...?..and then obviously, in living there themselves, planting the keys and his DNA would be relatively easy..?...especially as they also knew that they weren't being particularly closely watched by any detectives still looking for evidence...
...and whether the police ever suspected them or not, their focus only ever being Steven...but also the possibility that it was only ever going to be Steven for the police because of how many things did fit with it being him and because they genuinely felt him guilty, so didn't explore any other possibility/look for any other evidence for anyone else living there...obviously they needed Brendan for that as well, but they pretty much would know how easy he would be to manipulate...(and the same worrying thing from the first conviction of not caring of a possible murderer still out there..)...
..I agree with TS in that I don't think we'll ever know for sure sadly because so much time has passed but also, even if Bobby and Scott T were to actually confess or one of them to confess..(which would be highly unlikely..)...like Gregory Allen did to the rape, I doubt anything would ever be disclosed about it and it would be something that police dept would do nothing about...to have made so many errors the first time was pretty damning enough of either their incompetency or corruptions, so to allow that to happen a second time..?....no...
..I'm not sure what 'absolute' evidence anyone could find now for it ever to be a possibility of ever knowing for sure...
Also... No... Sadly I don't think we'll ever know what happened to the girl. If Avery and Brendan are found not to have done it and released, even proven conclusively to be innocent, they will still never be able to charge anyone else with the murder. Any ability to investigate further, and more evidence there might once have been, will have been gone or tainted for years by now.
Yep, and I also think it's not worth speculating over really. Saying that Teresa's ex or her brother might have done it on the basis that they look 'dodgy' is the same sort of thinking that meant Avery never had a chance of a fair trial. I don't think that Avery did it and I don't think there was enough evidence to convict him but there was a heck of a lot more than there is for Bobby Dassey or anyone else. Sad truth is probably that no one will ever know for sure what happened and who was responsible.
GiRTh
13-02-2016, 10:51 PM
Yep, and I also think it's not worth speculating over really. Saying that Teresa's ex or her brother might have done it on the basis that they look 'dodgy' is the same sort of thinking that meant Avery never had a chance of a fair trial. I don't think that Avery did it and I don't think there was enough evidence to convict him but there was a heck of a lot more than there is for Bobby Dassey or anyone else. Sad truth is probably that no one will ever know for sure what happened and who was responsible.
Its a bit more that that. The fact Bobby and Scotty alibied each other and Bobby's reaction to the conviction; the quote 'This is the best decision ever' is a strange reaction to a family member being convicted even if they think he did it. Also, the saga with the cell phone that her BF 'guessed' her password was never investigated even though it was clear someone had deleted messages and didnt her brother talk about 'grieving before her body had even been found. Its more than they looked a bit dodgy.
The fact Bobby and Scotty were never considered suspects beggers belief considering the supposed obsession the police had with the Avery family.
One thing that I'm still not sure about; why was Jodi not allowed to drink? She said she'd be arrested if she drank. I never quite got that.
Its a bit more that that. The fact Bobby and Scotty alibied each other and Bobby's reaction to the conviction; the quote 'This is the best decision ever' is a strange reaction to a family member being convicted even if they think he did it. Also, the saga with the cell phone that her BF 'guessed' her password was never investigated even though it was clear someone had deleted messages.
The fact Bobby and Scotty were never considered suspects beggers belief considering the supposed obsession the police had with the Avery family.
One thing that I'm still not sure about; why was Jodi not allowed to drink? She said she'd be arrested if she drank. I never quite got that.
The alibi thing is a bit strange but its still a leap to suppose they're guilty because of it and if that is the sort of evidence that suggests guilt then there's more that can be applied to Steven than to anyone else. Also that quote was from Scott and it might be that from his point of view Steven is responsible for his step son still rotting in jail right now. Scott is still campaigning for Brendan's release and has been since the conviction. Big part of the documentary really was that people have a right to be presumed innocent and anyone suggesting otherwise should have to be 'swimming upstream' in an attempt to prove it. There just isn't enough to say that any of Bobby/Scott/the ex are guilty apart from a couple of questionable statements. Easy to forget that these are all people who have their own lives and families now and a load of armchair detectives talking about them being murderers must be pretty horrible. In fairness I am guilty of this as well because I've got pretty into all the various theories and everything but it just struck me reading a 'where are they now' article how Bobby now has a wife and kids, Theresa's brother has a standard city job etc. they've all tried to get on with their lives and suddenly they've not only become worldwide names but also suspects.
GiRTh
13-02-2016, 11:23 PM
The alibi thing is a bit strange but its still a leap to suppose they're guilty because of it and if that is the sort of evidence that suggests guilt then there's more that can be applied to Steven than to anyone else. Also that quote was from Scott and it might be that from his point of view Steven is responsible for his step son still rotting in jail right now. Scott is still campaigning for Brendan's release and has been since the conviction. Big part of the documentary really was that people have a right to be presumed innocent and anyone suggesting otherwise should have to be 'swimming upstream' in an attempt to prove it. There just isn't enough to say that any of Bobby/Scott/the ex are guilty apart from a couple of questionable statements. Easy to forget that these are all people who have their own lives and families now and a load of armchair detectives talking about them being murderers must be pretty horrible. In fairness I am guilty of this as well because I've got pretty into all the various theories and everything but it just struck me reading a 'where are they now' article how Bobby now has a wife and kids, Theresa's brother has a standard city job etc. they've all tried to get on with their lives and suddenly they've not only become worldwide names but also suspects.Agree but I thnk the whole point of the series was for the armchair detecitve to find Avery innocent.
I think all the points made should have been investigated but as we know there was only ever one suspect.
The alibi thing is a bit strange but its still a leap to suppose they're guilty because of it and if that is the sort of evidence that suggests guilt then there's more that can be applied to Steven than to anyone else. Also that quote was from Scott and it might be that from his point of view Steven is responsible for his step son still rotting in jail right now. Scott is still campaigning for Brendan's release and has been since the conviction. Big part of the documentary really was that people have a right to be presumed innocent and anyone suggesting otherwise should have to be 'swimming upstream' in an attempt to prove it. There just isn't enough to say that any of Bobby/Scott/the ex are guilty apart from a couple of questionable statements. Easy to forget that these are all people who have their own lives and families now and a load of armchair detectives talking about them being murderers must be pretty horrible. In fairness I am guilty of this as well because I've got pretty into all the various theories and everything but it just struck me reading a 'where are they now' article how Bobby now has a wife and kids, Theresa's brother has a standard city job etc. they've all tried to get on with their lives and suddenly they've not only become worldwide names but also suspects.
Good point, but they can blame the police for that. If they had been properly investigated (as they should have been) and eliminated from the inquiry at the time no suspicion would be thrown on them now.
....hmmm, I do know what you mean Matt, these are conflicts of thoughts that I've had as well...especially with Teresa's own family and any suspicions from the series toward them..her parents, not only having the pain of Teresa's death/how she was killed/ not even knowing themselves fully but having so much focus on the person who they believe to have murdered her/the campaign to free him and now the documentary series... it's become all about Steven and very little about Teresa/the victim...just unimaginable enough without having her son thought of as a suspect as well...
..it was the same with the first conviction wasn't it...the victim of rape becoming a secondary type person in Steven's pleas of innocence that proved to be true...but her life must have been/must be terribly devasted by that brutal attack...there was a vein of thought there as well of no sympathy with Steven/his wrongful imprisonment for that crime because of him disturbingly burning the cat and jumping out in front of his cousin's car and threatening her with a gun...not a 'well minded' person....but the bigger picture, whatever the vein of thought of that was that a rapist was still out there and free...and the same with this/in both cases...because of the mistake and errors/because of the incompetence/because of the corruption/because of the manipulation of Brendon..because of, because of, because of....whatever theory is held....Bobby for instance..?...is now married with children and presumably has a good life....but in his 'good and free life' now, he may just have murdered Teresa Halbach...so ughhhh, a difficult one....
..if it were my child, you're totally right, I wouldn't want to see this series probably and I wouldn't want to see these discussions and I wouldn't want to see the focus and attention on the person that I completely believed had murdered my child....but the thought of the person who ended her life having lived free for 10yrs (potentially..)...would I think for me, be a much more disturbing and painful thought...one of the worst and most painful/life destroying things as a parent who has lost a child in the way they lost Teresa must be the 'not knowing'...their body never being found/their killer never being held accountable, you know...
Looks to me like a Mafioso style of set-up.
People in high places of power can get away with anything, they can even get away with assassinating a president in broad daylight in front of the viewing public.
lostalex
16-02-2016, 02:23 PM
Looks to me like a Mafioso style of set-up.
People in high places of power can get away with anything, they can even get away with assassinating a president in broad daylight in front of the viewing public.
no, a solitary psychopathic communist murdered the president.
no, a solitary psychopathic communist murdered the president.
It was the Mafia, they still ran your Country at that point.
lostalex
17-02-2016, 09:59 AM
It was the Mafia, they still ran your Country at that point.
that doesn't make any sense. look what happened to the mafia. if they had that much power in the US government then why did the US government completely destroy them a decade later? and why would the current US government still be hiding your so-called truth?
that doesn't make any sense. look what happened to the mafia. if they had that much power in the US government then why did the US government completely destroy them a decade later? and why would the current US government still be hiding your so-called truth?The hard drug culture of the 70s when the coke and heroin came on the scene played a big part in the downfall of the Mafia.
Why would the current government want to show how corrupt their establishment is by letting everybody know that they co-operated with the Mafia to assassinate a popular president.
I don't know this as fact, but this is just my assumption.
Anyway enough of Kennedy, back to the topic.
About Steven Avery
Prosecutors tried to delay his bail application applying for a motion to extend the case giving them more time to respond to corruption allegations.
But the state has been told to file their paperwork by March 2 so the case can go forward meaning Avery will learn what prosecutors have up their sleeve next Wednesday.
Read more at http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/making-murderers-steven-avery-given-7429287#lXGMhho7xSeAF6ab.99
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/making-murderers-steven-avery-given-7429287#pJowjDDRZC3yv3jo.97
Does anybody know if Brendan got to watch Wrestlemania?
..just to say Josy, because you've posted about Kathleen Zellner taking up Stephen's case..?..I read a few days ago..(sorry I forgot to save the link..)...that she's building up her appeal now as she is saying there is proof that Teresa used her phone after she left the Avery's home, that she did actually leave there ...
Niamh.
10-03-2016, 10:01 AM
..just to say Josy, because you've posted about Kathleen Zellner taking up Stephen's case..?..I read a few days ago..(sorry I forgot to save the link..)...that she's building up her appeal now as she is saying there is proof that Teresa used her phone after she left the Avery's home, that she did actually leave there ...
Oh wow, really? I wonder where that evidence came from? that would have been vital in his case
Oh wow, really? I wonder where that evidence came from? that would have been vital in his case
..I'm not sure this was the exact link but...
http://www.nme.com/filmandtv/news/lawyer-for-making-a-murderer-subject-steven-avery-/401759
Niamh.
10-03-2016, 12:34 PM
..I'm not sure this was the exact link but...
http://www.nme.com/filmandtv/news/lawyer-for-making-a-murderer-subject-steven-avery-/401759
should she be tweeting evidence and stuff like that though before a case?
Yeah I've been.keeping up with her tweets ammi
She's also said there's evidence that the sherrifs officers were trying to get avery for murder before teresa was even found and that people were using fake id's to check in and out of the crime scene
Niamh.
10-03-2016, 12:38 PM
Yeah I've been.keeping up with her tweets ammi
She's also said there's evidence that the sherrifs officers were trying to get avery for murder before teresa was even found and that people were using fake id's to check in and out of the crime scene
:o
jesus Christ if that's true I hope to **** that every single one of them pricks is held completely accountable and they're locked up for the rest of their miserable lives
#MakingAMurderer2
..yeah I was wondering as well, should she be tweeting all of it/trial by tweet..I thought that evidence to be used in a case was meant to be kept confidential and she's been tweeting how she's going to dispute all of the other 'evidence' as well..?...
:o
jesus Christ if that's true I hope to **** that every single one of them pricks is held completely accountable and they're locked up for the rest of their miserable lives
#MakingAMurderer2
..a friend of mine who also watched it, said that they were already making a 2nd series to update...so maybe all of these tweets are like 'publicity tasters' for it..:laugh:...
Niamh.
10-03-2016, 12:42 PM
Yeah I've been.keeping up with her tweets ammi
She's also said there's evidence that the sherrifs officers were trying to get avery for murder before teresa was even found and that people were using fake id's to check in and out of the crime scene
I mean there's a difference between planting evidence on a guy because you believe he's responsible and actively setting a guy up when you know he didn't do it, a massive difference, obviously both are wrong but the latter is unforgivably bad
user104658
10-03-2016, 12:58 PM
I'm telling you, it's a catspiracy. That's right. Catspiracy. The fire-cat survived all those years ago and all of this has been part of it's evil master-plan. Avery in fact knew that the cat was a supervillain all along, that's why he tried to destroy it the only way he knew how. With flame.
Everyone forgot about the damned cat.
Niamh.
10-03-2016, 01:27 PM
I'm telling you, it's a catspiracy. That's right. Catspiracy. The fire-cat survived all those years ago and all of this has been part of it's evil master-plan. Avery in fact knew that the cat was a supervillain all along, that's why he tried to destroy it the only way he knew how. With flame.
Everyone forgot about the damned cat.
plot twist :o
Niamh.
16-05-2016, 02:40 PM
any of you read/watch these? I'm definitely leaning more on the side that he is actually guilty now
http://www.newstalk1130.com/onair/common-sense-central-37717/rebutting-a-murderer-14280387/
andybigbro
16-05-2016, 04:28 PM
any of you read/watch these? I'm definitely leaning more on the side that he is actually guilty now
http://www.newstalk1130.com/onair/common-sense-central-37717/rebutting-a-murderer-14280387/
Really ? I might read them later if I get time
..just to say Josy, because you've posted about Kathleen Zellner taking up Stephen's case..?..I read a few days ago..(sorry I forgot to save the link..)...that she's building up her appeal now as she is saying there is proof that Teresa used her phone after she left the Avery's home, that she did actually leave there ...
or someone used her phone.
Niamh.
17-05-2016, 06:37 PM
or someone used her phone.
yep, that phone was found in the burn pit with her body so there's no reason why Steve couldn't have used it somewhere else and then brought it back to burn unless they actually have a person who she personally spoke to afterwards
user104658
17-05-2016, 09:21 PM
It's pretty obvious that the documentary itself is one-sided and plays certain things up / down from drama and entertainment...
...That said, there's quite a bit of irony in seeing someone complaining about how one-sided and biased the documentary is, and then proceed to be completely biased in the opposite direction :joker:. I'd like to see someone go through it all with genuine impartiality and counter each point. Having skimmed a few of those transcripts... there's an awful lot of conjecture and guesswork going on in the rebuttals?
^ Agree. Just looking at the first one:
In yet another example of Making a Murderer minimizing or ignoring anything that would make Avery or his family look at all unsympathetic, the series does not explain that Avery’s brothers, Charles and Earl, were also well known to law enforcement, which would have had reason not to trust them.
Three years after Steven was convicted of the rape, Charles was charged with sexual assault but acquitted. In 1999, his former wife accused him of sexually assaulting her and wrapping a telephone cord around his neck. A deferred prosecution agreement saved him from serving prison time.
In 1992, Earl pleaded no contest to battery and fourth degree sexual assault after attacking his wife.
Do these sound like entirely credible witnesses? Or would it have been logical for investigators to believe that they were lying to protect their brother?
Even if that wasn't all conjecture, the writer seems to be using Charles and Earl's charges as a justification for authorities not believing them despite those incidents taking place years after Steven's trial and conviction
Niamh.
18-05-2016, 08:53 AM
Yeah of course it's one sided but I guess that's to even up the onesideness of the documentary I guess :laugh:
user104658
18-05-2016, 09:04 AM
Yeah of course it's one sided but I guess that's to even up the onesideness of the documentary I guess :laugh:
But it's just one preaching one thing at loggerheads with another preaching the opposite; two conflicting forms of extremism don't even out into one reasonable stance. You don't get any real objective balancing of the facts.
...a bit like TiBB Serious Debates and News actually. :joker:
Niamh.
18-05-2016, 09:06 AM
But it's just one preaching one thing at loggerheads with another preaching the opposite; two conflicting forms of extremism don't even out into one reasonable stance. You don't get any real objective balancing of the facts.
...a bit like TiBB Serious Debates and News actually. :joker:
In this instance he's just countering claims made by the documentary though.
I am really interested to hear about this new phone evidence though
user104658
18-05-2016, 09:12 AM
In this instance he's just countering claims made by the documentary though.
I am really interested to hear about this new phone evidence though
Yeah but not just with evidence. He's not just saying, "The documentary said X but actually here's some evidence that might show Y, Z, etc."
There's an awful lot of "But it COULD have been this, or this, or this... because I think this... and they might not be trustworthy because blah blah..."
Too many ifs, buts and maybes to be branding itself as a "rebuttal". It's more a guy just arguing that he disagrees and sharing his musings, just like we do here... which is fine... it's more the way that it's been set out as something more conclusive that bothers me.
Niamh.
18-05-2016, 09:15 AM
Yeah but not just with evidence. He's not just saying, "The documentary said X but actually here's some evidence that might show Y, Z, etc."
There's an awful lot of "But it COULD have been this, or this, or this... because I think this... and they might not be trustworthy because blah blah..."
Too many ifs, buts and maybes to be branding itself as a "rebuttal". It's more a guy just arguing that he disagrees and sharing his musings, just like we do here... which is fine... it's more the way that it's been set out as something more conclusive that bothers me.
Fair enough.
What do you think about it though? Do you reckon he did it?
I still follow the updates on this and apparently Zellner (his new attorney) has enough evidence of him being innocent that she doesn't even want a new trial she's going for straight out exoneration.
Niamh.
18-05-2016, 10:15 AM
I still follow the updates on this and apparently Zellner (his new attorney) has enough evidence of him being innocent that she doesn't even want a new trial she's going for straight out exoneration.
I'm really looking forward to seeing what that is. If it's true and she can prove that beyond any doubt, then that's going to expose a crazy set up, I hope they follow through with finding out exactly who is responsible if that's the case
I'm really looking forward to seeing what that is
Yeah same, and I know theres obviously a whole lot of work being put in and theres also been stalling tactics for manitowic county but sometimes I really feel like posting on her twitter updates asking 'when' :laugh:
Niamh.
18-05-2016, 10:18 AM
Yeah same, and I know theres obviously a whole lot of work being put in and theres also been stalling tactics for manitowic county but sometimes I really feel like posting on her twitter updates asking 'when' :laugh:
I bet Netflix are praying to the Gods that it's true so they have juicy material for Making a murderer part 2 :laugh:
user104658
18-05-2016, 10:45 AM
Fair enough.
What do you think about it though? Do you reckon he did it?
I've never been totally convinced that Avery is actually innocent and he's definitely not the sympathetic character that's portrayed in the documentary... But at the same time, I am utterly convinced that the sheriffs department engaged in some less-than-legal activities (lying and planting evidence) in order to "make sure they got him".
Brendan is a complicated one. Whether or not he was involved in any way, even if he really was there, he's quite blatantly a vulnerable person susceptible to coercion. Into saying what the police want, but also, if it did go down that way, susceptible to being manipulated into it by Avery in the first place without understanding the consequences.
Whether or not he was present for her murder, he has been treated poorly by the system.
But then I've always said that. The problem is not whether or not an innocent man is being framed... The sheriff's department have a duty to do things the right way no matter what. It should never be a case of the ends justifying the means, "it's all OK because he is guilty", it sets a dangerous precident.
user104658
18-05-2016, 10:46 AM
I'm really looking forward to seeing what that is. If it's true and she can prove that beyond any doubt, then that's going to expose a crazy set up, I hope they follow through with finding out exactly who is responsible if that's the case
Sadly I think it's too late for that, any additional evidence would be long gone by now so the trail would just go cold.
Niamh.
18-05-2016, 10:47 AM
Sadly I think it's too late for that, any additional evidence would be long gone by now so the trail would just go cold.
mmm it seemed like a big mistake to not search all the properties on the Avery land at the time and not just Steves because I reckon if Steve is innocent it was most likely either his brothers or brother in law and Bobby Dassey
Niamh.
18-05-2016, 11:20 AM
I've never been totally convinced that Avery is actually innocent and he's definitely not the sympathetic character that's portrayed in the documentary... But at the same time, I am utterly convinced that the sheriffs department engaged in some less-than-legal activities (lying and planting evidence) in order to "make sure they got him".
Brendan is a complicated one. Whether or not he was involved in any way, even if he really was there, he's quite blatantly a vulnerable person susceptible to coercion. Into saying what the police want, but also, if it did go down that way, susceptible to being manipulated into it by Avery in the first place without understanding the consequences.
Whether or not he was present for her murder, he has been treated poorly by the system.
But then I've always said that. The problem is not whether or not an innocent man is being framed... The sheriff's department have a duty to do things the right way no matter what. It should never be a case of the ends justifying the means, "it's all OK because he is guilty", it sets a dangerous precident.
Seems like a huge risk for them to take though considering what had happened in his previous conviction :think:
user104658
18-05-2016, 06:10 PM
Seems like a huge risk for them to take though considering what had happened in his previous conviction :think:
True, but let's be honest, none of them seem like the sharpest bone fragment in the burn pit do they...
You know what the best thing about this thread is? How it shows up on Tapatalk...
http://oi64.tinypic.com/34g1314.jpg
:joker:... His koot wittle face...
Niamh.
23-05-2016, 04:23 PM
This is a good read also, she's a criminal profiler who was familiar with the case before the documentary came out
http://patbrownprofiling.blogspot.ie/2016/01/making-killing-off-murderer-analysis-of_49.html
What I want to do here is just point out the basic profiling and crime analysis issues relating to the Halbach crime.
1) Where victim's body is found
The body was found on Avery's property. This is why the police went to Avery and talked to him. He wasn't targeted. You have the corpse of a murdered individual on your property; you are going to become a person of interest.
2) Where the victims' vehicle is found.
That was on Avery's property as well. Again, police are not targeting Avery. They are doing their job which is to investigate where the vehicle was found and who could have put the vehicle at that location. Since it was hidden on Avery's property, he is going to become a person of interest.
3) The last place the victim was seen
That was on Avery's property. Anyone who lives on the Avery property is going to become a person of interest; this includes Steven Avery
4) The last person to have contact with the victim
That would be Steven Avery. The police are obviously going to investigate the last person who was in contact with the victim or was with the victim.
5) Where physical evidence of the crime exists
That would be in the Avery fire pit, in the Avery burn barrel, in Steven Avery's house, and in the victim's car on Avery's property. All the physical evidence implicates Steven Avery (his DNA in the car), the victim's body parts, DNA, and personal items in the firepit and barrel, and the key and his DNA in his house.
6) Witnesses
The only people that claim to have seen Teresa Halbach right before or after her disappearance are Bobby and Brendan Dassey. Bobby Dassey states he say Halbach photographing a car and then heading toward Steven Avery's house. Brendan Dassey states he saw Halbach tied up in Steven Avery's house, saw Steven Avery kill her and saw Steven Avery burn her. There are no witnesses saying they saw Teresa Halbach anywhere else or with anyone else.
So, it comes down to this. Overwhelming evidence that Steven Avery is guilty of the murder of Teresa Halbach. Unless he was framed.
Framing Steven Avery would require:
Someone knowing or getting lucky that Halbach was coming out to Avery property that day.
Someone getting lucky that there are two witnesses to say she was with or near Steven Avery that day
Someone getting lucky that a witness can describe the crime in detail so that most of it matches the evidence
Someone has to kill Halbach for some reason and burn her body on the property right under the nose of Steven Avery (or bring her burned body parts (this did not happen) to the property and mix them in with the stuff Steven Avery had already burned.
Someone had to hide the victim's car on the Avery property
Someone had to hide the victim's car key in Steven Avery's house
Someone had to plant Steven Avery's DNA in the victim's car and on the key
So either law enforcement found out Halbach was going out to Steven Avery's house and just as she was leaving, they kidnapped her, killed her, burned her up, and spread all the evidence and DNA around Avery's property and house OR someone else saw the opportunity to kill Halbach, killed her, burned her up somewhere and spread her cremains and personal items around the Avery property and then law enforcement saw a great opportunity and jumped on board by planting Avery's DNA and the key.
Or maybe Steven Avery is just guilty as hell and all the evidence proves it.
Niamh.
25-05-2016, 02:46 PM
Also, that 3rd call Steve Avery made to Teresas phone where he didn't block his number was made after she went missing, with him asking why she never showed up, eventhough he did admit to her showing up afterwards, that's pretty compelling evidence right there, why was he trying to make out that she never showed up?
..I still think he's guilty and I still think that he somehow thrives off being 'the innocent man' and all of the positive attention he receives from the public with that...the interesting thing with this../ ..with Kathleen Zellner taking up Steven's case etc..is that apparently, Brendan's case has not progressed at all from the documentary...maybe that can't happen unless Steven's innocence could be proven first...
Smithy
26-05-2016, 08:19 AM
There's no blood evidence tho? All that was ever found was a bullet, where was the blood
Niamh.
26-05-2016, 09:00 AM
There's no blood evidence tho? All that was ever found was a bullet, where was the blood
Her DNA was found on the bullet
Niamh.
26-05-2016, 09:01 AM
There's no blood evidence tho? All that was ever found was a bullet, where was the blood
Also, the day after she died Steven and Brendan cleaned his garage with Bleach, they both admit to that, Brendan even had bleach on his jeans
Niamh.
29-07-2016, 09:56 AM
Steve Avery slams his Lawyers Dean Strang and Jerry Buting......mmmhhmmm
This is unexpected, to say the least. Steven Avery has written a letter from prison complaining about his lawyers Dean Strang and Jerry Buting, accusing them of not doing their investigation correctly.
Eh, not our Dean and Jerry surely? The lawyers proved hugely popular with fans of the Netflix series and seemed firmly on Team Steve, however, in a letter obtained by InTouch, Steven insists they didn't do their job properly and should lose their licence.
Here's a page from the letter, the full version will be released in this week's print edition of InTouch;
http://entertainment.ie/images_content/steven-avery-letter3.jpeg
This is the first time Steven has spoken negatively about the lawyers saying; "They don’t now what justice is and they don’t now what is a investigation is because if they did they would have done it for a innocent man like me!!!"
This seems to have come completely out of left field, but here's hoping season two clears up what exactly went down here.
Also on a side note, grammatically, the letter is all over the shop, but doesn't Steven Avery have nice handwriting? Just saying.
http://entertainment.ie/tv/news/Making-a-Murderers-Steven-Avery-SLAMS-lawyers-Dean-Strang-and-Jerry-Buting-in-prison-letter/383588.htm
Smithy
29-07-2016, 10:08 AM
Guess thats why they're not his lawyers anymore
user104658
29-07-2016, 10:22 AM
He deserves life in prison for that grammar and spelling alone.
Niamh.
29-07-2016, 10:23 AM
He deserves life in prison for that grammar and spelling alone.
He deserves life in prison for dissing Mr Stranglove :smug:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/70/bb/a1/70bba1d99cad80a436c52a6fc25ec874.gif
Niamh.
29-07-2016, 10:43 AM
:fan:
user104658
29-07-2016, 11:09 AM
He deserves life in prison for dissing Mr Stranglove :smug:
Don't worry, Strang has ways to get to him on the inside. He won't stand for this.
Brendans conviction has just been overturned
Breaking news on sky and CNN
user104658
12-08-2016, 09:51 PM
Brendans conviction has just been overturned
Breaking news on sky and CNN
:omgno: Justice for B-Dass!
Brendans conviction has just been overturned
Breaking news on sky and CNN
...oh I read this yesterday, Josy...it was only a little while ago as well that I was looking at the updates on the cases and it said that Brendan's case hadn't progressed from where the series left it, it was more the focus on Steven and Kathleen Zellner taking up his case and hopeful of the conviction being overturned with 'stunning new evidence' etc...I wonder if this is a part of it then/the first part...?...that Steven's situation is all hinged on Brendan's innocence first and then that can be progressed..?...hmmm, interesting as to what will happen now with him and how quickly....
Niamh.
16-08-2016, 09:08 AM
...oh I read this yesterday, Josy...it was only a little while ago as well that I was looking at the updates on the cases and it said that Brendan's case hadn't progressed from where the series left it, it was more the focus on Steven and Kathleen Zellner taking up his case and hopeful of the conviction being overturned with 'stunning new evidence' etc...I wonder if this is a part of it then/the first part...?...that Steven's situation is all hinged on Brendan's innocence first and then that can be progressed..?...hmmm, interesting as to what will happen now with him and how quickly....
I'm not sure about that because they didn't use Brendans statement in Steve's case did they? Also, by the sounds of it his conviction was overturned because of how badly the Police and his own lawyer acted towards him when he was a minor rather than proving he was innocent :think: I still think he did it.
I am really interested to see what the new evidence they have for Steve is though
Paula D
16-08-2016, 09:17 AM
So for the people who think Steve is innocent, who do you think actually did it?
I actually think it was Dassey's stepdad, he was such a creep. I can't remember all the evidence now but I know he gave evidence that the young lad contradicted.
Poor Brendan Dassey is the biggest victim in all of this IMO. How on earth could they have slit her throat and not left blood and DNA evidence. The fact that he made that up just goes to show that he was willing to say anything to get away from the police.
Niamh.
16-08-2016, 09:23 AM
I actually think it was Dassey's stepdad, he was such a creep. I can't remember all the evidence now but I know he gave evidence that the young lad contradicted.
Poor Brendan Dassey is the biggest victim in all of this IMO. How on earth could they have slit her throat and not left blood and DNA evidence. The fact that he made that up just goes to show that he was willing to say anything to get away from the police.
mmm I think if Steve is innocent then Dasseys brother and step dad are the next most likely candidates. I'm not so sure that Steve and Brendan didn't do it it though, it is possible that Brendan made up some stuff under pressure from the Police but still was telling some truths also. I just don't know why all the properties on the Avery land weren't searched when her car and remains were found there, would have answered those questions. Don't forget that Teresas DNA was actually found on the bullet they recovered from Steves garage
user104658
16-08-2016, 10:04 AM
Also, by the sounds of it his conviction was overturned because of how badly the Police and his own lawyer acted towards him when he was a minor rather than proving he was innocent :think: I still think he did it.
That's the thing for me though, if Brendan was involved... he clearly had (probably still has) the mental capacity of a young child and would have been easily manipulated into his involvement with little understanding of what was going on or the magnitude of it. The fact that he was interviewed at all without an adult present is a disgrace... and the way they lead him in the interview only makes it worse. And then after all of that, he was essentially put on trial as an adult of sound mind... AND with sub-par representation. Just a total shambles really, and right for it to be overturned.
Niamh.
16-08-2016, 10:12 AM
That's the thing for me though, if Brendan was involved... he clearly had (probably still has) the mental capacity of a young child and would have been easily manipulated into his involvement with little understanding of what was going on or the magnitude of it. The fact that he was interviewed at all without an adult present is a disgrace... and the way they lead him in the interview only makes it worse. And then after all of that, he was essentially put on trial as an adult of sound mind... AND with sub-par representation. Just a total shambles really, and right for it to be overturned.
Yeah, I agree with all that. To add to that also he seemed scared of Steve and in one recorded phone call to his mother claimed that he'd been sexually abused by him. If they did actually do it, I would absolutely think that Brendan was also a victim and was probably traumatized by the whole thing.
Speaking of victims though, I do hope everyone remembers the real victim in all of this, that poor woman who was actually murdered, sometimes it feels like because of that TV series she's almost seen as a "baddie" along with her family :/ I wonder how they're feeling right now too
user104658
16-08-2016, 10:33 AM
Yeah, I agree with all that. To add to that also he seemed scared of Steve and in one recorded phone call to his mother claimed that he'd been sexually abused by him. If they did actually do it, I would absolutely think that Brendan was also a victim and was probably traumatized by the whole thing.
Yeah if it did happen exactly as the prosecution has claimed in the past, then I would imagine that Steven would be goading him into participating and helping, and that he would probably have feared (perhaps even rightly) for his own safety if he refused. Then because of his naivety and child-like way of thinking, he wouldn't have known that he could just tell the whole truth and probably get a lot of protection if he said that he was forced into it. He would just think that admitting to it would definitely cause even more trouble.
Speaking of victims though, I do hope everyone remembers the real victim in all of this, that poor woman who was actually murdered, sometimes it feels like because of that TV series she's almost seen as a "baddie" along with her family :/ I wonder how they're feeling right now too
I think they avoid talking about her much as a person at all in the documentary, which is a bit strange. And then on top if that... I think her brother and her ex(?)-boyfriend's odd seeming behavior doesn't help much either.
Niamh.
16-08-2016, 10:39 AM
Yeah if it did happen exactly as the prosecution has claimed in the past, then I would imagine that Steven would be goading him into participating and helping, and that he would probably have feared (perhaps even rightly) for his own safety if he refused. Then because of his naivety and child-like way of thinking, he wouldn't have known that he could just tell the whole truth and probably get a lot of protection if he said that he was forced into it. He would just think that admitting to it would definitely cause even more trouble.
I think they avoid talking about her much as a person at all in the documentary, which is a bit strange. And then on top if that... I think her brother and her ex(?)-boyfriend's odd seeming behavior doesn't help much either.
Because I guess their aim was to make Steve and Brendan the victims, if they made Teresa a real person that would be harder to do. The series was set up to show that the crime was committed against Steve, you almost forget about the other crime involved here the brutal murder of a young woman (and probable sexual assault/rape)
Niamh.
16-08-2016, 11:43 AM
It's also very possible that Brendan genuinely had nothing to do with it but Steve Avery did. Brendans case all rested on his confession where as Steve's was full of physical evidence and he was tried as the sole perpetrator of the crime so unless Steves new attorney has found some new damning evidence that will clear him(as she claims) Brendans conviction overturning shouldn't automatically make Steve seem innocent :think:
Niamh.
16-08-2016, 11:55 AM
also, if the state want to appeal, does that mean that they now can't use Brendans confession? Because if that's the case then they have absolutely nothing on him since all the physical evidence linked only Steve to the crime
According to this (http://heavy.com/news/2016/08/brendan-dassey-2016-now-updates-conviction-overturned-retrial-evidence-new-latest-avery-making-a-murderer/):
Prosecutors could decide to retry Dassey, now 26, but they would face enormous hurdles in doing so because the judge ruled Dassey’s confession was involuntary and that confession was the centerpiece of the state’s case against Dassey, who was 16 when Halbach was murdered (read a transcript here).
The State of Wisconsin could also appeal Duffin’s decision. If prosecutors decided to appeal and lost, the State would also then have to decide whether to retry Dassey absent the confession. If the state wins on appeal, there won’t be a retrial because the conviction would stand. Prosecutors have not yet said whether they plan to appeal or retry Dassey
So a retrial seems unlikely. Also seems like this has no impact on Steven really seeing as Brendan's confession wasn't used in his trial
Niamh.
16-08-2016, 01:55 PM
According to this (http://heavy.com/news/2016/08/brendan-dassey-2016-now-updates-conviction-overturned-retrial-evidence-new-latest-avery-making-a-murderer/):
So a retrial seems unlikely. Also seems like this has no impact on Steven really seeing as Brendan's confession wasn't used in his trial
Thanks Matt, their only option would be to appeal the judges over turning then it looks like.
Because I guess their aim was to make Steve and Brendan the victims, if they made Teresa a real person that would be harder to do. The series was set up to show that the crime was committed against Steve, you almost forget about the other crime involved here the brutal murder of a young woman (and probable sexual assault/rape)
..I was thinking about this when I read about Brendan and how her parents/family must be feeling about the news and also if Steven was acquitted as well with whatever 'new evidence' it's been reported..I just can't even imagine their pain because what then..?...who has been brought to justice for Teresa's murder.../an unimaginable nightmare...
Shaun
17-08-2016, 06:49 AM
I agree about the relative ignorance of the life of Teresa in the documentary being a troublesome issue - it was probably my main concern when watching it (that, and the feeling that I was being 'entertained' by a real life murder trial... that it was just a story or something).
So a retrial seems unlikely. Also seems like this has no impact on Steven really seeing as Brendan's confession wasn't used in his trial
In hindsight it seems quite bizarre that they never used Brendan's 'confession' (since it implicated Steve)
..I've been wondering how it'll be for him/Brendan when he's released...he obviously has great vulnerabilities and prison is all he's known for 10 years since he was 16yrs old...I recall at the end of the series, it being commented on, with the photo that was taken of him at the window in prison, how it was the first time that he'd been seen to smile..almost like prison was a place where he felt 'safer'/more comfortable/less anxious...I wonder what the support will be for him outside of the family and how he'll cope with freedom...
Niamh.
07-09-2016, 10:36 AM
Yeah good question Ammi.
Any word about Steve Averys appeal? they had till Aug 29th to lodge it I think
Paula D
07-09-2016, 10:50 AM
Plus according to the story Brendan told, they raped and cut Theresas throat in Steves bedroom but not a single piece of blood, skin, hair, body fluids were found in there
This was the bit that completely convinced me that Brendan had nothing to do with it at least. There's absolutely no way that you could cut someone's throat and there not be some blood left in the room, no matter how good a cleaner you are.
I'm fully convinced Brendan didn't do anything except maybe witness his stepfather being involved. I'm still not fully convinced about Stephen, he just didn't come across well but then he had a terrible life even up to that so who would be normal I suppose?
Niamh.
07-09-2016, 10:52 AM
This was the bit that completely convinced me that Brendan had nothing to do with it at least. There's absolutely no way that you could cut someone's throat and there not be some blood left in the room, no matter how good a cleaner you are.
I'm fully convinced Brendan didn't do anything except maybe witness his stepfather being involved. I'm still not fully convinced about Stephen, he just didn't come across well but then he had a terrible life even up to that so who would be normal I suppose?
hhhmmm I don't know, i do still think Steven did it. I think at the very least Brendan helped him clean the garage as both their clothes had bleach on them as did the garage and Brendan told them they'd bleached the garage
Paula D
07-09-2016, 11:03 AM
..I've been wondering how it'll be for him/Brendan when he's released...he obviously has great vulnerabilities and prison is all he's known for 10 years since he was 16yrs old...I recall at the end of the series, it being commented on, with the photo that was taken of him at the window in prison, how it was the first time that he'd been seen to smile..almost like prison was a place where he felt 'safer'/more comfortable/less anxious...I wonder what the support will be for him outside of the family and how he'll cope with freedom...
Very good question Ammi because I didn't get the sense either his mother or step-father had his interests at heart and they weren't very mentally well themselves. He will need a lot of support. God love him I'm not sure he'll get it.
Paula D
07-09-2016, 11:05 AM
hhhmmm I don't know, i do still think Steven did it. I think at the very least Brendan helped him clean the garage as both their clothes had bleach on them as did the garage and Brendan told them they'd bleached the garage
I don't remember the evidence about the bleach but to be fair, the police planted so much evidence a bit of bleach wouldn't be very hard.
How do you explain that no blood evidence was found in the trailer?
Niamh.
07-09-2016, 11:19 AM
I don't remember the evidence about the bleach but to be fair, the police planted so much evidence a bit of bleach wouldn't be very hard.
How do you explain that no blood evidence was found in the trailer?
Well, you're just taking as fact that Police actually did plant evidence but that's not actually been proven at all. In fact the TV Show left questions un answered it would seem to make us think that even more, like the Blood in the test tube with hole in it, they made us think that was damning when in fact all those test tubes have those holes in, to get the blood in to them in the first place.
I don't really need to explain why there was no blood in his trailer, I don't know what happened or where anything happened etc, I'm just giving my opinion on who I think most likely committed the crime and most evidence points to Steve Avery. His blood and his DNA were found in her car. Her burned remains were found outside his trailer, it was proven that her body was in fact burned there because her remains were inter twinned with tires that had also been burned there.
and even if you think the body was burned somewhere else and planted there don't you think Steve might have noticed someone dumping a burned body outside his door?
Niamh.
07-09-2016, 11:50 AM
This is a good article to balance things out a bit from the TV Series
http://www.pajiba.com/netflix_movies_and_tv/is-steven-avery-guilty-evidence-making-a-murderer-didnt-present.php
Niamh.
07-09-2016, 02:24 PM
And this one is better :
http://thefederalist.com/2016/08/19/brendan-dassey-may-be-innocent-but-steven-avery-is-still-guilty-as-sin/
Let’s review: If your contention is that Avery is innocent, you must also believe that a string of clandestine schemes were pulled off by a group of law enforcement officials (or some other unknown person) who exhibited a level of proficiency that rivals SPECTRE. You would have to believe that these people either murdered an innocent woman, or found her and then, presumably, set up Avery because he had been exonerated in the earlier rape case; that they then drove Halbach’s car into the Avery family auto yard and dumped it there without being noticed; that they got their hands on Avery’s blood and sweat and then smeared it on Halbach’s car; that they then scorched her body in his fire pit and dumped her remains on his property without anyone noticing; that they took more of Avery’s DNA and smeared it on Halbach’s car keys, which were planted in the trailer; and then, somehow, they also deposited a bullet from his gun with her DNA (a fact not mentioned in the documentary, incidentally) and planted in it the garage. That’s just for starters.
Brother Leon
07-09-2016, 03:42 PM
I think he's innocent, but I don't think it was a huge conspiracy. I think Brendan's stepdad did it and tried to frame Avery and then the police saw the opportunity to lock Avery up and save themselves some headache and they went for it. I think there is no doubt evidence was tampered with just to make sure they got him.
Brother Leon
07-09-2016, 03:43 PM
All in all. I'm just glad that Dassey is being released. Those cops and his lawyer were disgusting.
lostalex
08-09-2016, 01:55 AM
Wasn't it the fiance or something that seemed suspicious on the show?
Niamh.
08-09-2016, 08:38 AM
Wasn't it the fiance or something that seemed suspicious on the show?
I think he was an ex boyfriend but they were still friends or something? tbf they kind of made a few people look suspicious
Shaun
24-09-2016, 03:10 PM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3800262/We-ll-laughing-forever-Making-Murderer-s-Steven-Avery-engaged-53-year-old-Las-Vegas-blonde-met-time-just-week.html?ito=social-facebook
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/09/23/18/38B99E7C00000578-3800262-image-a-7_1474652230449.jpg
tg00YEETFzg
...didn't he also meet his last partner when he was in prison the first time and with all of the media attention attached to the case..?..(if he's guilty..)..the psychology is thought provoking as well because could he with his actions, be 'addicted' to being in prison and being 'the innocent guy' and all of the attention it brings or brought him the first time when he was innocent and so many rooting for him...probably way off but hmmmm.....
Niamh.
30-09-2016, 01:46 PM
Steve Avery and his fiance will be on an episode of Dr. Phil next week, definitely a must watch
http://buzz.ie/steven-avery-is-making-return-to-tv-this-week/
Steve Avery and his fiance will be on an episode of Dr. Phil next week, definitely a must watch
http://buzz.ie/steven-avery-is-making-return-to-tv-this-week/
...oh I don't know if I can get Dr Phil on my channels, I'll have to look into that...
Brendan is being released today
Niamh.
14-11-2016, 08:05 PM
Brendan is being released today
good, no matter what happened the system certainly failed him and if he was involved like how he said then he was probably terrified of Stephen too
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3935558/Judge-orders-Making-Murderer-accomplice-Brendan-Dassey-released-10-years-prison.html
....eek, I know this is probably a horrid thing to feel but I'm still a bit conflicted with this in that, that I still think about that image of Brendan smiling at the prison window and the first time seeing him smile and had he found something there that his life and family had never given...had prison become a better 'family' for him...the words of his attorney..'that's the focus, getting him back with his family right now'...anyway it looks as though it's not completely clear yet, that he definitely will be released or if he has already, I can't find that update....only this DM article from a few days ago...
Niamh.
23-02-2017, 02:06 PM
Good video in this link, an interview with Ken Kratz, I believe him tbh. He addresses the "new" evidence for Steven Averys appeal too
https://www.yahoo.com/news/steven-averys-prosecutor-i-regret-using-local-investigators-in-making-a-murderer-case-215347580.html
Good video in this link, an interview with Ken Kratz, I believe him tbh. He addresses the "new" evidence for Steven Averys appeal too
https://www.yahoo.com/news/steven-averys-prosecutor-i-regret-using-local-investigators-in-making-a-murderer-case-215347580.htmlI thought they were making Making a murderer part 2? Is this still happening Niamh? and if it is, do you know when?
Niamh.
23-02-2017, 03:50 PM
I thought they were making Making a murderer part 2? Is this still happening Niamh? and if it is, do you know when?
I haven't heard much about it tbh Alf, i wonder are they waiting to see if he gets his appeal? They have some material with Brendan being freed anyway
Niamh.
24-04-2017, 01:35 PM
http://perezhilton.com/2017-02-02-making-a-murderer-steven-avery-cellmate-confession-letter/?from=post#.WP37m_nysnQ
Also, Brendan Dassey didn't get out after all?
http://perezhilton.com/2016-11-17-making-a-murderer-brendan-dassey-release-prison-judge-panel-appeals/?from=post#.WP37-PnysnQ
DemolitionRed
24-04-2017, 03:51 PM
The plot thickens.
I knew he was guilty all along:fan:
Niamh.
24-04-2017, 03:55 PM
The plot thickens.
I knew he was guilty all along:fan:
Been saying it for ages :idc:
DemolitionRed
24-04-2017, 04:53 PM
Been saying it for ages :idc:
All the time the programme was going on, you get so into it. Having a break and then coming back to it is probably a good thing because it means we are going to listen more to both sides.
I would of shouted INNOCENT from the roof tops, but after watching the video you linked (thanks for that Niamh) I'm not so sure. The only thing I would say is, its high functioning psychopaths that get away with heinous crimes like this. Avery doesn't come over as all that bright, so even with the best lawyers in the county/country, you wouldn't of thought he could cover this up as long as he has.
Niamh.
24-04-2017, 05:46 PM
All the time the programme was going on, you get so into it. Having a break and then coming back to it is probably a good thing because it means we are going to listen more to both sides.
I would of shouted INNOCENT from the roof tops, but after watching the video you linked (thanks for that Niamh) I'm not so sure. The only thing I would say is, its high functioning psychopaths that get away with heinous crimes like this. Avery doesn't come over as all that bright, so even with the best lawyers in the county/country, you wouldn't of thought he could cover this up as long as he has.
Well he hasnt really covered it up tbf, he is in prison for it [emoji23] plus according to that link I posted he admitted it to his cell mate. I doubt the cell mate has anything to gain from making it up, they're not going to offer him a reduced sentence when Steve Avery is already convicted for the crime :shrug:
Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk
Niamh.
27-09-2017, 11:49 AM
Today is set to be a big day in determining the future of Brendan Dassey
Dassey has remained in prison since a homicide conviction was overturned last year.
Lawyers working on behalf of Brendan Dassey will make a case for his release from prison in front of a federal appeals court in Chicago on Tuesday.
In 2007, Dassey, the nephew of Steven Avery, was convicted of raping and killing Teresa Halbach and sentenced to life in prison in a case made famous by the 2015 Netflix documentary series, Making a Murderer.
In August of last year, a federal judge in Milwaukee overturned a conviction of murder in relation to the death of Teresa Halbach in 2005, arguing that Dassey was coerced into a confession by investigators.
Shortly before he was due to be released from prison, however, a federal appeals court in the United States blocked his release despite the fact that his homicide conviction had been overturned.
State attorneys subsequently called for a full review of the case and the interrogation techniques used by police officials and Dassey has remained in prison since.
According to TIME, all 12 judges of the 7th Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals in Chicago will hear oral arguments in the Dassey case on Tuesday, with lawyers acting on behalf of Dassey and state attorneys expected to speak and to answer the questions of judges for approximately 30 minutes each.
A ruling in the case involving Dassey, now 27, may not arrive for weeks or months.
The events surrounding Halbach’s death and the subsequent sentencing of Avery and Dassey was documented in the Netflix series Making a Murderer, which Netflix have confirmed will return for a second season later this year.
https://www.joe.ie/movies-tv/brendan-dassey-602238
I was reading about this yesterday but I saw something saying the result wont be for months
user104658
27-09-2017, 12:25 PM
I still say Dassey should never have been sent to prison regardless of his involvement or validity of his confession. Assuming the entire narrative is true, he was a vulnerable child forced to commit a horrendous crime by a manipulative family member. He has significant learning difficulties, a very low IQ, and other mental health issues alongside... IF we can assume that Avery is guilty, then in my opinion, Brendan is another of his victims - not a co-conspirator. He should have been placed in a secure facility until it could be assessed whether or not he was actually dangerous (when not influenced by others); not prison. If deemed not suitable to be back in public due being vulnerable to being influenced by others, then a secure, monitored semi-independent living facility ongoing.
DemolitionRed
27-09-2017, 12:36 PM
I still say Dassey should never have been sent to prison regardless of his involvement or validity of his confession. Assuming the entire narrative is true, he was a vulnerable child forced to commit a horrendous crime by a manipulative family member. He has significant learning difficulties, a very low IQ, and other mental health issues alongside... IF we can assume that Avery is guilty, then in my opinion, Brendan is another of his victims - not a co-conspirator. He should have been placed in a secure facility until it could be assessed whether or not he was actually dangerous (when not influenced by others); not prison. If deemed not suitable to be back in public due being vulnerable to being influenced by others, then a secure, monitored semi-independent living facility ongoing.
I agree with this.
Niamh.
27-09-2017, 12:38 PM
I still say Dassey should never have been sent to prison regardless of his involvement or validity of his confession. Assuming the entire narrative is true, he was a vulnerable child forced to commit a horrendous crime by a manipulative family member. He has significant learning difficulties, a very low IQ, and other mental health issues alongside... IF we can assume that Avery is guilty, then in my opinion, Brendan is another of his victims - not a co-conspirator. He should have been placed in a secure facility until it could be assessed whether or not he was actually dangerous (when not influenced by others); not prison. If deemed not suitable to be back in public due being vulnerable to being influenced by others, then a secure, monitored semi-independent living facility ongoing.
Yeah I agree with this. I do believe Brendans confession was correct (although not how he was handled by his own lawyer and the officers involved) but like you I believe he was also a victim of Steve Averys (there was also the mention of sexual abuse by Brendan in a conversation to his mother)
Niamh.
10-01-2018, 04:57 PM
I read alot of this guys analysis, he's really good, totally agree with his thoughts on the Avery case as well
http://statement-analysis.blogspot.ie/2015/12/steve-averys-statement-at-sentencing.html
http://statement-analysis.blogspot.ie/2015/12/making-murderer-study-in-propaganda.html
Coming in September
1689664802526838784?
Niamh.
11-08-2023, 10:52 AM
Now that I will watch, I thought he was guilty as sin too after reading more about it after the series
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