Avery/Dassey Discussion Thread (Contains spoilers from Making a Murderer) Brendans Conviction Overturned

[Josy]

Thought we could have a thread in here discussing the case at the centre of the Making a Murderer documentary and all the theories surrounding it.

So if you've watched do you think Steven and Brendan are guilty?

Having watched the series and read lots of information that's freely available online I am pretty certain that they are both innocent and were framed (rather obviously IMO) by the Manitowoc County Police Department.

Links to the online transcripts of the court cases etc..

Dassey transcripts and interrogations

http://stevenaveryproject.com/dassey-files/

Avery transcripts and interrogations

http://stevenaveryproject.com/avery-...l-transcripts/

Under the Avery Transcripts it has 50 or so official crime scene photos.

[Cal.]

They're both guilty.

(From what I've seen so far)

[Josy]

They're both guilty.

So do you have any reasons why you think that?

I'm just quite shocked that anyone could watch the entire series and not come away at the end thinking that theres some highly suspicious stuff going on there.

I know some say it was all one sided but all of the information is available online for anyone to read.

Also Kathleen Zellner has now taken charge of Steven's appeals and she is well known for taking on wrongful conviction and exoneration cases, I just can't see her getting involved if she had any doubts at all that they werent guilty.

[Cal.]

I just can't get over that her remains were in his firepit. I'm sorry.

[Josy]

I just can't get over that her remains were in his firepit. I'm sorry.

Fair enough :laugh:

[Kizzy]

My daughter was telling me about this, she thinks they were set up to get out of paying the compensation for the wrongful conviction.

[Iceman]

It's so ****ed up. He was to be paid a huge amount and then he goes and murders someone. No way would anyone do that. All the evidence is too tampered with or non existent for my liking too. Not to mention the juror saying he feared for his life.

[Marsh.]

But he seems a highly unbalanced individual to me. I mean, granted he's not going to be the most stable of people spending that long in prison for something he didn't do.

But I don't think he's entirely innocent. But the corruption amongst the police/government is shocking.

[Brother Leon]

There is no way either of them should have been convicted looking at just the evidence and the Trial. There is something about Steven though.... Poor Brendan was the true travesty though. Poor kid.

[Smithy]

Obviously not guilty, I think the most overwhelming thing for me was that his blood was found in her car, (presumably) from the cut on his finger, but there were no fingerprints, plus her body had been put in the back of her own car, which makes NO sense

[Niamh.]

I just can't get over that her remains were in his firepit. I'm sorry.

But what about the fact that that cop Colburn rang in the missing car to dispatch 2 days before the car was actually found on Steve Averys property? And the fire expert guy saying it was likely the burned remains had been moved to the pit closest to Steves home?

The cops had motive to pin it on Steve since they were just about to get sued for millions plus have their reputations left in tatters, it's not like they didn't have form for pinning something on him, they were by no means ethical cops

[Niamh.]

Obviously not guilty, I think the most overwhelming thing for me was that his blood was found in her car, (presumably) from the cut on his finger, but there were no fingerprints, plus her body had been put in the back of her own car, which makes NO sense

Plus according to the story Brendan told, they raped and cut Theresas throat in Steves bedroom but not a single piece of blood, skin, hair, body fluids were found in there

[Niamh.]

Meant to post this here instead of the other thread. This theory makes so much sense :

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2016/01/22/making-a-murderer-steven-avery-brendan-dassey-_n_9048104.html

[Niamh.]

Jeez all these theories sound pretty plausible actually :laugh:

http://www.tv.com/shows/making-a-murderer/community/post/making-a-murderer-theories-on-who-killed-teresa-halbach-145382448447/

[DemolitionRed]

I have so got to watch this.

[Niamh.]

I have so got to watch this.

You really need to DR

[Josy]

I've been obsessed since watching it.

All of the case files are available to read online, the whole thing.

There's a huge protest in Manitowoc today too to get some media attention about the dodgy evidence.

Even if you do think they are guilty, no one can deny that they deserve a new fair trial.

[Josy]

Also the entire 4 hours of brendans interviews as well as the first one when him and his brother were pulled over coming back from the families cabin is also online.

He always sticks to the same story about coming home from school, playing playstation etc, until they start pressuring him.

[Josy]

And how can they have found one guilty saying she was murdered in the garage and the other saying she was murdered in the bedroom, what the **** is that all about

[Niamh.]

And how can they have found one guilty saying she was murdered in the garage and the other saying she was murdered in the bedroom, what the **** is that all about

yeah by the same lawyer too, crazy. Seems it was right that Kratz was a sleaze bucket as well after seeing what happened to him afterwards

[Smithy]

Plus according to the story Brendan told, they raped and cut Theresas throat in Steves bedroom but not a single piece of blood, skin, hair, body fluids were found in there

Yeah it's hilarious, you slit someone's throat there is going to be blood EVERYWHERE and on a matress/duvet/carpet it's gonna be impossible to clean but nothing found at all and they still managed to be convicted :umm2:

[Niamh.]

So for the people who think Steve is innocent, who do you think actually did it?

[Smithy]

The brother or the ex, they both looked really shifty the first time you see them

[Niamh.]

The brother or the ex, they both looked really shifty the first time you see them

Teresas brother?

I think it might have been Scott Tadych but the ex hacking into her phone was strange especially when they could tell some messages had been deleted

[Niamh.]

Yeah I really think this is it :

Theory #1: Scott Tadych (Avery’s brother-in-law) and Bobby Dassey (Avery’s nephew and Brendan Dassey’s brother) killed Halbach (purposefully or accidentally) and framed Avery for the crime … and then sat back and watched as the Manitowoc County Sheriff’s Department separately did the same.

Evidence: The amount of evidence found on the Avery property — including Halbach’s remains and her car – has led many to surmise that if Steven Avery and Brendan Dassey are innocent, the real killer would still likely be someone who had similar access and opportunity, both to Halbach herself and the Avery property. A number of other Avery family members also lived on the property at the time, including Tadych, Janda and all four of the Dassey boys. It was Janda’s car that Halbach came to photograph for Auto Trader magazine, and Tadych more than likely was privy to her visit. Bobby Dassey testified to seeing Halbach taking pictures of his mother’s car, and both men had access to the various locations where evidence was found. Neither was fingerprinted or submitted DNA, and the trailer where they lived was not searched, so there’s no way of knowing if there was evidence linking them to Halbach’s murder, because they were not investigated.

Other Evidence: Bobby is believed to be Tadych’s accomplice in this theory, based on the fact that the pair conveniently alibi each other for the time of the murder. Both claimed to have gone hunting that afternoon/evening, but not together, and said they passed each other on the highway during the window of time Halbach is believed to have been killed – but there are no other witnesses to offer further corroboration.

Tadych, meanwhile, has a long history of being violent towards women, and showed a strange level of enthusiasm for his brother-in-law’s conviction (he called it “the best thing in the world ever”) despite knowing his step son, Brendan, was facing similar charges. Meanwhile, Bobby Dassey’s testimony at trial had notable inconsistencies and misleading statements, and an unrelated examination the same week as the murder reportedly revealed that Bobby had scratches on his back. Additionally, shortly after Halbach’s death, a coworker of Tadych’s claimed that he was trying to sell a .22 rifle, the same as the gun believed to be the murder weapon, which he said belonged “to one of the Dassey boys.”

[Niamh.]

Sorry about all the posts, I'm a bit obsessed with it now too :laugh: I was reading an article about it and this point is apt I think

the real story is about our messed up legal system and how it deprives the socioeconomically disadvantaged and the uneducated of the presumption of innocence.

So true, the state didn't have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that he was guilty, it was down to his Lawyers to prove beyond reasonable doubt that he was innocent

http://www.pajiba.com/netflix_movies_and_tv/is-steven-avery-guilty-evidence-making-a-murderer-didnt-present.php

[Josy]

The brother or the ex, they both looked really shifty the first time you see them
Yeah I agree with this. Right from the episode where they were interviewing during the search and the brother comes out with something about the grieving process and they hadn't found a body or nothing yet :umm2:

Plus the scratches all over the exs hands and them 'guessing' the voucemail passwords

[Niamh.]

Ohhh now I'm reading that article more closely and this guy thinks he's guilty (although some of the things he's saying aren't correct) Like he said that certain things were left out of the docuseries when they actually hadn't been (not all of them anyway)

[Niamh.]

Yeah I agree with this. Right from the episode where they were interviewing during the search and the brother comes out with something about the grieving process and they hadn't found a body or nothing yet :umm2:

Plus the scratches all over the exs hands and them 'guessing' the voucemail passwords

That could be because of, if that theory about them having found the car earlier is true, that they were hiding something but not that they'd killed her?

[Niamh.]

Now this guy nearly has me convinced Steven Avery is guilty :think:

http://www.pajiba.com/netflix_movies_and_tv/is-steven-avery-guilty-evidence-making-a-murderer-didnt-present.php

[user104658]

I'm not convinced either way about Avery (which by the rules of innocent until proven guilty, I guess means that I don't think he should be in jail) however the treatment of Brendan Dassey by the authorities as seen in the documentary, is downright ****ing criminal in itself. From the looks of it, Brendan is most probably on the autistic spectrum, and also has a very low IQ on top of that. On several occasions, they interrogate him for several HOURS, with a tonne of suggestion and leading questions, and they get him overwhelmed to the point that he's completely broken and will say anything. Probably even starts to believe it. As soon as they leave him alone for a while, he gets his clarity back and goes back to saying that it didn't happen (which it clearly didn't, the statement they got out of him was all over the place and made little sense, and was missing a tonne of key details that there's no way he would have forgotten).

The way they talk to him, belittle him, get frustrated with him and shout at him for not being able to explain himself clearly... It's all an absolutely gargantuan abuse of a clearly very vulnerable individual. He should never have been questioned AT ALL without mental health / educational support people present who would understand his vulnerable state and how easily lead into saying whatever they wanted he would be after hours of relentless questioning.

[Niamh.]

Re Brendan also TS, that lawyer he had behaved deplorably and the case should have been thrown out for that alone and he should have been disbarred.

[Ammi]

Thought we could have a thread in here discussing the case at the centre of the Making a Murderer documentary and all the theories surrounding it.

So if you've watched do you think Steven and Brendan are guilty?

Having watched the series and read lots of information that's freely available online I am pretty certain that they are both innocent and were framed (rather obviously IMO) by the Manitowoc County Police Department.

It's so ****ed up. He was to be paid a huge amount and then he goes and murders someone. No way would anyone do that. All the evidence is too tampered with or non existent for my liking too. Not to mention the juror saying he feared for his life.


..I watched the first 2 episodes of this a few weeks ago..(I think it was you Josy who mentioned it somewhere else so I thought that I'd take a look, but as usual, got distracted, so didn't get back to it...I did find it absorbing though, so will start watching again..)...

..but I only got to Teresa's remains being found so am in the vein of thought as you iceman/he's innocent, the whole timeline of these things happening within days, when it looked like he would get a huge payout/and the 'coincidence', I mean why would he do it, so suspicious...it wasn't just the payout/money though for those in the police force involved and those in the justice system, it was also the corruption involved and things that could have been potentially revealed, how much deeper it may have run and his case being just one example but an example of further investigations into other stuff, perhaps..?...so yeah, all too convenient and suspicious, so innocent is my first thought..but then, on the flipside...?...was he really fooling everyone into thinking it was about the compensation and people being held accountable but other than that, he was getting his life together etc...or did it all run much deeper than that and he also knew the 'timeline' was perfect for him to do this because of being able to say, oh this is all happening again and you all know these people are corrupt ...so assuming he would not be found guilty..that, that would be the 'influence'...that he had been planning the 'timeline' and right time for 12 months for more of an 'ultimate revenge'/a much deeper 'revenge'....or maybe not planning even but more seeing that he could do this and this time, be guilty but proven innocent....anyways, so I'm nowhere near really having any fixed thoughts yet..:laugh:..and Duncan/that's his brother then..?..I have a way to catch up with you guys and haven't read any online stuff yet either but I will try to make an effort to get back to this as there is obviously so much more....


..on a side-line thing, I do love how American documentaries can put a case and make you absolutely and totally believe something..and then do a flip of that and make you absolutely and totally believe the opposite, I think the USA documentaries are particularly excellent at that...

[Ammi]

Now this guy nearly has me convinced Steven Avery is guilty :think:

http://www.pajiba.com/netflix_movies_and_tv/is-steven-avery-guilty-evidence-making-a-murderer-didnt-present.php

..see, this is what I mean...I haven't clicked on the link or read it but I find USA documentaries so brilliant because 'absolutely convinced now' with one and then 'absolutely convinced now with another'...intriguing and confusing/conflicting and presented either to be just as plausible...I'll read the online stuff and links after I have finished the series....

[Niamh.]

..see, this is what I mean...I haven't clicked on the link or read it but I find USA documentaries so brilliant because 'absolutely convinced now' with one and then 'absolutely convinced now with another'...intriguing and confusing/conflicting and presented either to be just as plausible...I'll read the online stuff and links after I have finished the series....


The documentary seemed to leave out some things that gave him a motive and glossed over things that we should have taken a bit more notice of imo, like they mention he threw a cat on a fire but they never said he poured petrol on it first, also before the rape case he was going to be charged with running a woman off the road, pulling a gun on her and (this part wasn't mentioned in The documentary) threatening to rape her, apparently he would have got around 6 years in prison for that. The documentary almost made you feel like that woman was to blame for him doing that to her because he said she said some things about him behind his back.


They also never showed the part of Brendan's phone call to his mom where he tells her that Steven had abused him numerous times.

It also never tells us that Teresa had asked her boss not to send her to Stevens place anymore cos he freaked her out or that he'd specifically asked for her that day or that he'd phoned her 3 times that day, twice hiding his number from her

[Josy]

Nimah that part about the woman having a gun pulled on her was right at the start of the documentary it was his cousin and she was married to the head of the sherrifs department that's what is believed to be the cause of the sherrifs officers disliking him before thwy accusedbhim of the rape the first time.

The stuff about Theresa asking not to be sent there again was proven to be false (his first lawyers have spoken about this online and said he got out of his swimming pool and wrapped a towel round him one if the times she visited) her co worker testified saying this and that was left out the documentary too.

[Josy]

Brendans mum also said the stuff about brendan being abused was rubbish. And if you think about it it doesn't add up, brendan was only just turned 16 when the murder happened and steven had served 18 years in prison so when would the abuse have taken place?

[Niamh.]

Yes I know who the woman was Josy but I'm quite annoyed with myself for not taking it more serious at the time, I mean what kind of a nut job runs a woman off the road and pulls a gun on her because he thinks she's saying stuff about him?

[Niamh.]

Brendans mum also said the stuff about brendan being abused was rubbish. And if you think about it it doesn't add up, brendan was only just turned 16 when the murder happened and steven had served 18 years in prison so when would the abuse have taken place?


He'd been out of jail a couple of years before the murder happened

[Niamh.]

I don't know, I just feel a bit manipulated by the documentary

[Josy]

True he was a bit of a nutter and the thing about the cat sickened me but the thing is he never denies most of those things happening (obviously that doesnt excuse any.of it) but it doesn't prove he is guilty of murder and that was a massive problem with the court case, he was judged on his past rather than the present when to be found guilty of killing Theresa the state should have proven without reasonable doubt that he was guilty of that crime, the most important thing to me is that both him and brendan recieve a fair trial and the real killer is found even if it is him.

[Josy]

I don't know, I just feel a bit manipulated by the documentary
I get what you mean, I was shocked reading some stuff that had been left out too, but then there's other stuff that was also left out and not shown during the case like brendan explaining to his mum that the officers had got to his head and then the investigator trying to convince him he had been using crack :/

[Josy]

I've read all of the Brendan interview transcripts, there's some stuff in those that had my head ruined both thinking they had actually done it then questioning myself and thinking no they never and so on.

The court transcripts are 5000+ pages long and I haven't even attempted to start them yet but atm I'm back to thinking both are innocent.

[Niamh.]

What about about the sweat found on the RAV4 that matched Stevens? The cops couldn't have planted that, also there was something Brendan told the cops about Steven taking the battery out of Teresa's car which he couldn't have known otherwise (if what I read is correct)

[Josy]

Strang said sweat dna can't be identified as precisely that it's just non.blood dna . Also one of the forensic guys said they forgot to change his gloves and believes it could be contaminated evidence.

I don't know though

[Niamh.]

I need to read more on it I think

[Josy]

I need to read more on it I think
I can't stop [emoji23]

One important thing that's further making me think he's innocent is kathleen zellner taking over his case, she's massively famous for defending people that were wrongfully found guilty and she believes he is innocent and framed, took his case on probono and i just can't see her doing that if there was a chance he done it.

Out of the 17 wrongful conviction cases she's taken on so far she's had all of them overturned / vacated.

[Ammi]

..the interview with Brendan was hard to watch, they seemed to so obviously be manipulating him to say what they wanted him to say and to interview him for 3 hours without a solicitor present...?..and I believe that he didn't have any idea about the shooting her part and that they did 'get in his head', they didn't want his truth, they just wanted him to say what they wanted to hear to make their case...and then he told his mum that he didn't remember any of it and where was the blood, there would have been lots of blood..?..also, it seems very suspicious that the district attorneys were saying that it was a good thing that he had been imprisoned for 18 years, even though it was a wrongful imprisonment..trying to justify that as well..?...hmmm, I'm still thinking innocent atm..there seems to be lots of suspicious stuff against them but nothing to think that they actually did it, other than what could have been set up ...


..Josy/Niamh...the bit earlier on with his cousin saying he had run at the car etc....I thought that she had later on said that it wasn't him, it was also Gregory Allen...?../maybe I'm wrong about that but I thought that she had...

[Cal.]

I would never willingly disagree with you Ammi (except for now) but if I'm completely honest he deserved the 18 years he 'wrongfully served' for the burning the family cat to death alone.

[Niamh.]

..the interview with Brendan was hard to watch, they seemed to so obviously be manipulating him to say what they wanted him to say and to interview him for 3 hours without a solicitor present...?..and I believe that he didn't have any idea about the shooting her part and that they did 'get in his head', they didn't want his truth, they just wanted him to say what they wanted to hear to make their case...and then he told his mum that he didn't remember any of it and where was the blood, there would have been lots of blood..?..also, it seems very suspicious that the district attorneys were saying that it was a good thing that he had been imprisoned for 18 years, even though it was a wrongful imprisonment..trying to justify that as well..?...hmmm, I'm still thinking innocent atm..there seems to be lots of suspicious stuff against them but nothing to think that they actually did it, other than what could have been set up ...





..Josy/Niamh...the bit earlier on with his cousin saying he had run at the car etc....I thought that she had later on said that it wasn't him, it was also Gregory Allen...?../maybe I'm wrong about that but I thought that she had...


No Ammi, that's not right, it was 100% Steve Avery who ran her off the road and pulled a gun on her

[user104658]

I would never willingly disagree with you Ammi (except for now) but if I'm completely honest he deserved the 18 years he 'wrongfully served' for the burning the family cat to death alone.

Yeah I did find myself unable to have much sympathy... he set a ****ing cat on fire. On fire! And he talks about it so passively like "Oh yeah derp I set the cat on fire dat was silly derp derp what a silly kid...". :conf: wut??

Howeverrrr...

the most important thing to me is that both him and brendan recieve a fair trial and the real killer is found even if it is him.

This is why it's caught my interest anyway. I'm not really interested in what happens to Avery. Brendan I do have more sympathy for because I think he is clearly significantly disabled and has been treated abysmally. But the main points are:

- Regardless of what Avery does or doesn't "deserve", the actions of the people involved in the investigation and in pressing the charges are fascinating, and terrifying. There is such blatant corruption, lying and tampering. Such power-tripping. That needs to be explored... their involvement needs to be laid bare because whether or not Avery is guilty, that department is a shambles, and it probably reflects on the entire small-town system in the US.

and secondly,

- If Avery isn't guilty, even though I don't feel particularly bad for HIM being locked up... him going down for that crime means that a killer is still out there.

[Ammi]

...sorry Cal, somehow I've completely missed his burning of the family cat, Niamh did mention it but I thought it was something that was going to come later but it was obviously something though that he did before his first sentencing..?..hmmm, yes a horrendous and 'evil' thing to do so I do understand your feelings, I really do..and you might think that this is pretty harsh but even in knowing that I've missed that and it's something that happened before the 18yrs imprisonment, it's not what he was convicted for...so part of my thoughts are that maybe they're right/the justice system etc...in him being in prison for those 18yrs, they've prevented him from doing anything else because he seems like a disturbed and screwed up person...but the thing with that though is that for 18yrs, a brutal rapist has been free and out there...so a mindlessly cruel and awful thing to do but to me, maybe more needing help for mental illness issues, rather than prison..?...with how it was, with his 18yrs imprisonment for something he didn't do..?...it's caused his focus/everyone's focus to be on 'wrongful' and on what he didn't do, rather than the things he did do be addressed, like running his cousin off the road with a gun, exposing himself, and burning the family cat, not someone with a sound and healthy mind, I would say...he came out of prison being 'the wronged, innocent person' who had lost 18yrs of his life and the whole focus on that, but in that, never having to address those disturbing things he did do and his overall mental health and him needing help for that...going in with a mentally ill mind and coming out with a mentally ill mind, because serious things needed looking at there and they weren't...

[Ammi]

..and TS, I agree with you about Brendon, he's so obviously vulnerable and I found it heart-breaking to see how the police manipulated him and used those vulnerabilities ...and also them pushing him one way and his mother pushing him another way and him just wanting to 'give everyone what they wanted'..and his solicitor being fairly useless imo...I am though also interested in Avery because his 'vulnerabilities' as it were, are not so obvious because of the things he's done, which are seriously disturbing...but equally 'mental vulnerabilities' only in a different way and I guess it's like we've all said before on different things, what he needed really was mental health help...what his years of imprisonment have done, are to have prevented that from happening...and also meant that a brutal rapist was free, the same as with Teresa's murder, if they are innocent as you say, then a murderer is still out there...

[Ammi]

the most important thing to me is that both him and brendan recieve a fair trial and the real killer is found even if it is him.


..this really, what Josy has said..with any doubts atm, then there is very disturbed killer still out there...

[Cal.]

Yes Ammi - I do agree with you actually on even though the cat thing was horrendous and cruel, there was still a brutal rapist on the loose because Steven Avery was doing time in prison for it. And I guess if there is inconsistencies with the evidence ect (I just couldn't get over the body in the fire pit) then Avery and Dassey deserve a fair trial at least to ensure that Theresa Halbach 's killer(s) are brought to justice, whether it actually be Avery and Dassey or not.

[Ammi]

Yes Ammi - I do agree with you actually on even though the cat thing was horrendous and cruel, there was still a brutal rapist on the loose because Steven Avery was doing time in prison for it. And I guess if there is inconsistencies with the evidence ect (I just couldn't get over the body in the fire pit) then Avery and Dassey deserve a fair trial at least to ensure that Theresa Halbach 's killer(s) are brought to justice, whether it actually be Avery and Dassey or not.

..mind you, we think of a 'killer still out there' as with the first case and a rapist still being out there...(but would it be 'too' conspiracy and corruption etc..)...to think that if this was all set up, could the police department have also arranged a contract killer and Teresa's death..is that completely overthinking...?...

[Cal.]

..mind you, we think of a 'killer still out there' as with the first case and a rapist still being out there...(but would it be 'too' conspiracy and corruption etc..)...to think that if this was all set up, could the police department have also arranged a contract killer and Teresa's death..is that completely overthinking...?...

I haven't actually seen the full series yet so I don't really know the extreme measures the Manitowoc County have gone to to be able to judge whether they would actually kill a woman to ensure Steven Avery is back in jail.

[user104658]

Yes Ammi - I do agree with you actually on even though the cat thing was horrendous and cruel, there was still a brutal rapist on the loose because Steven Avery was doing time in prison for it. And I guess if there is inconsistencies with the evidence ect (I just couldn't get over the body in the fire pit) then Avery and Dassey deserve a fair trial at least to ensure that Theresa Halbach 's killer(s) are brought to justice, whether it actually be Avery and Dassey or not.

Regarding the fire pit, there is (significant) evidence that the body was burned elsewhere and then the charred bone fragments were moved to the Avery fire pit. In fact, the opposite doesn't make sense. Charred bones were found elsewhere - in two locations I believe - but just a few. Does it make sense that the body was burned in the pit and then someone moved a few bone fragments? No... It makes more sense that the body was burned at the other location, and then some one tried to gather them all up to relocate them (and frame avery) but missed a few. This is the most compelling evidence that Avery is innocent for me, in fact. It seems indisputable that the bones were moved - and there's no logical explanation for him moving them there himself and incriminating himself.

Well, that, and the fact that their suggested "kill sites" of the trailer and garage were DNA-evidence-free. She simply was NOT killed in either of those places. There's a reason that "Dexter" built his little plastic sheeting tents to make his kills... Because it would take industrial cleaning to remove that evidence, and even then you'd probably leave something behind.

..mind you, we think of a 'killer still out there' as with the first case and a rapist still being out there...(but would it be 'too' conspiracy and corruption etc..)...to think that if this was all set up, could the police department have also arranged a contract killer and Teresa's death..is that completely overthinking...?...

I very much doubt they would have killed an innocent to get to him. As the sheriff (chillingly) pointed out - it would be "much easier to just kill him".

I think someone else killed her and burned her and then, knowing that the police would JUMP at the opportunity to get Avery, as they were quite clearly already holding grudges, that person knew that it would be easy to frame him. And it was.

Basically I think the killer(s) burned her, moved the bones and placed the car on the property. The rest of the evidence was the sheriff's dept, who genuinely believed he was guilty, trying to build a more solid case against him. I fully believe they may well have planted the key, and tampered with blood/dna and bullet evidence along the way. They definitely, in my opinion, completely fabricated Brendan Dassey's role in it and forced his "confession" (which can barely even be called that).

[Ammi]

The documentary seemed to leave out some things that gave him a motive and glossed over things that we should have taken a bit more notice of imo, like they mention he threw a cat on a fire but they never said he poured petrol on it first, also before the rape case he was going to be charged with running a woman off the road, pulling a gun on her and (this part wasn't mentioned in The documentary) threatening to rape her, apparently he would have got around 6 years in prison for that. The documentary almost made you feel like that woman was to blame for him doing that to her because he said she said some things about him behind his back.


They also never showed the part of Brendan's phone call to his mom where he tells her that Steven had abused him numerous times.

It also never tells us that Teresa had asked her boss not to send her to Stevens place anymore cos he freaked her out or that he'd specifically asked for her that day or that he'd phoned her 3 times that day, twice hiding his number from her

....her boss looked a little fidgety and uncomfortable to me and maybe that was just nerves of the court and situation but could also be 'body language' I guess...also, he still sent her out though, a female employee telling him that someone freaked her out and that he was phoning her and trying to hide his number and he still sent her out there...


..this court case is incredible, the 'tampering' of evidence, that threatening...'if you pursue this then peruse it at your peril'...Bobby's testimony which couldn't have been right because of the dates and that the judge refused a mistrial and refused the jury to disregard the testimony..and the missing texts..(..which her brother could access..)..it's all so suspicious

[Niamh.]

Regarding the fire pit, there is (significant) evidence that the body was burned elsewhere and then the charred bone fragments were moved to the Avery fire pit. In fact, the opposite doesn't make sense. Charred bones were found elsewhere - in two locations I believe - but just a few. Does it make sense that the body was burned in the pit and then someone moved a few bone fragments? No... It makes more sense that the body was burned at the other location, and then some one tried to gather them all up to relocate them (and frame avery) but missed a few. This is the most compelling evidence that Avery is innocent for me, in fact. It seems indisputable that the bones were moved - and there's no logical explanation for him moving them there himself and incriminating himself.

Well, that, and the fact that their suggested "kill sites" of the trailer and garage were DNA-evidence-free. She simply was NOT killed in either of those places. There's a reason that "Dexter" built his little plastic sheeting tents to make his kills... Because it would take industrial cleaning to remove that evidence, and even then you'd probably leave something behind.



I very much doubt they would have killed an innocent to get to him. As the sheriff (chillingly) pointed out - it would be "much easier to just kill him".

I think someone else killed her and burned her and then, knowing that the police would JUMP at the opportunity to get Avery, as they were quite clearly already holding grudges, that person knew that it would be easy to frame him. And it was.

Basically I think the killer(s) burned her, moved the bones and placed the car on the property. The rest of the evidence was the sheriff's dept, who genuinely believed he was guilty, trying to build a more solid case against him. I fully believe they may well have planted the key, and tampered with blood/dna and bullet evidence along the way. They definitely, in my opinion, completely fabricated Brendan Dassey's role in it and forced his "confession" (which can barely even be called that).

mmmm now I've had a chance to gather my thoughts again, I've gone back to thinking he didn't do it, and yeah it seemed clear that the body was moved to Averys which obviously would be a pretty stupid thing for Avery himself to do. I've gone back to thinking it was Brendans Step dad and maybe his brother too.

Because the car and body parts were found on the Averys land I think they should have checked all the family that lived around there's property for DNA, blood etc

[Niamh.]

..mind you, we think of a 'killer still out there' as with the first case and a rapist still being out there...(but would it be 'too' conspiracy and corruption etc..)...to think that if this was all set up, could the police department have also arranged a contract killer and Teresa's death..is that completely overthinking...?...

I don't believe that they would go to those lengths and kill an innocent girl just to frame Steve Avery but I do think they believed it was him and planted some evidence

[Ammi]

I don't believe that they would go to those lengths and kill an innocent girl just to frame Steve Avery but I do think they believed it was him and planted some evidence

..no I don't believe that either really, it's too much conspiracy but there are still some things that don't make sense to me either/that don't seem to fit...the police surely must have planted her car and directed the search ..a 40 acre land property and it took 30 minutes to find it...and also the police officer who knew the car model, when he wasn't meant to have seen it...(he looked so uncomfortable there in court..)...so the police must have planted the car first before the killer planted the body, so the killer maybe not have been intending to make it look like Avery at first but then did when the car was found...but also if the police were going to 'plant', why didn't they plant all of the evidence originally because other 'evidence' was the found so much later than the body was found...

..anyways, the judge is really suspicious in throwing all of the defence things out but allowing most of the prosecution and the convenience of all of the 'ruined' evidence that was so, so important...(I'm going to try to watch some more soon and the I'll be back with my next conspiracy theory..)....

[Niamh.]

..no I don't believe that either really, it's too much conspiracy but there are still some things that don't make sense to me either/that don't seem to fit...the police surely must have planted her car and directed the search ..a 40 acre land property and it took 30 minutes to find it...and also the police officer who knew the car model, when he wasn't meant to have seen it...(he looked so uncomfortable there in court..)...so the police must have planted the car first before the killer planted the body, so the killer maybe not have been intending to make it look like Avery at first but then did when the car was found...but also if the police were going to 'plant', why didn't they plant all of the evidence originally because other 'evidence' was the found so much later than the body was found...

..anyways, the judge is really suspicious in throwing all of the defence things out but allowing most of the prosecution and the convenience of all of the 'ruined' evidence that was so, so important...(I'm going to try to watch some more soon and the I'll be back with my next conspiracy theory..)....

I posted this theory I found online on the first page, but it kind of addresses some of those questions you had

Theory #1: Scott Tadych (Avery’s brother-in-law) and Bobby Dassey (Avery’s nephew and Brendan Dassey’s brother) killed Halbach (purposefully or accidentally) and framed Avery for the crime … and then sat back and watched as the Manitowoc County Sheriff’s Department separately did the same.

Evidence: The amount of evidence found on the Avery property — including Halbach’s remains and her car – has led many to surmise that if Steven Avery and Brendan Dassey are innocent, the real killer would still likely be someone who had similar access and opportunity, both to Halbach herself and the Avery property. A number of other Avery family members also lived on the property at the time, including Tadych, Janda and all four of the Dassey boys. It was Janda’s car that Halbach came to photograph for Auto Trader magazine, and Tadych more than likely was privy to her visit. Bobby Dassey testified to seeing Halbach taking pictures of his mother’s car, and both men had access to the various locations where evidence was found. Neither was fingerprinted or submitted DNA, and the trailer where they lived was not searched, so there’s no way of knowing if there was evidence linking them to Halbach’s murder, because they were not investigated.

Other Evidence: Bobby is believed to be Tadych’s accomplice in this theory, based on the fact that the pair conveniently alibi each other for the time of the murder. Both claimed to have gone hunting that afternoon/evening, but not together, and said they passed each other on the highway during the window of time Halbach is believed to have been killed – but there are no other witnesses to offer further corroboration.

Tadych, meanwhile, has a long history of being violent towards women, and showed a strange level of enthusiasm for his brother-in-law’s conviction (he called it “the best thing in the world ever”) despite knowing his step son, Brendan, was facing similar charges. Meanwhile, Bobby Dassey’s testimony at trial had notable inconsistencies and misleading statements, and an unrelated examination the same week as the murder reportedly revealed that Bobby had scratches on his back. Additionally, shortly after Halbach’s death, a coworker of Tadych’s claimed that he was trying to sell a .22 rifle, the same as the gun believed to be the murder weapon, which he said belonged “to one of the Dassey boys.”
__________________

[Niamh.]

This one goes into a bit more detail actually

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2016/01/22/making-a-murderer-steven-avery-brendan-dassey-_n_9048104.html

[Ammi]

I posted this theory I found online on the first page, but it kind of addresses some of those questions you had

Theory #1: Scott Tadych (Avery’s brother-in-law) and Bobby Dassey (Avery’s nephew and Brendan Dassey’s brother) killed Halbach (purposefully or accidentally) and framed Avery for the crime … and then sat back and watched as the Manitowoc County Sheriff’s Department separately did the same.

Evidence: The amount of evidence found on the Avery property — including Halbach’s remains and her car – has led many to surmise that if Steven Avery and Brendan Dassey are innocent, the real killer would still likely be someone who had similar access and opportunity, both to Halbach herself and the Avery property. A number of other Avery family members also lived on the property at the time, including Tadych, Janda and all four of the Dassey boys. It was Janda’s car that Halbach came to photograph for Auto Trader magazine, and Tadych more than likely was privy to her visit. Bobby Dassey testified to seeing Halbach taking pictures of his mother’s car, and both men had access to the various locations where evidence was found. Neither was fingerprinted or submitted DNA, and the trailer where they lived was not searched, so there’s no way of knowing if there was evidence linking them to Halbach’s murder, because they were not investigated.

Other Evidence: Bobby is believed to be Tadych’s accomplice in this theory, based on the fact that the pair conveniently alibi each other for the time of the murder. Both claimed to have gone hunting that afternoon/evening, but not together, and said they passed each other on the highway during the window of time Halbach is believed to have been killed – but there are no other witnesses to offer further corroboration.

Tadych, meanwhile, has a long history of being violent towards women, and showed a strange level of enthusiasm for his brother-in-law’s conviction (he called it “the best thing in the world ever”) despite knowing his step son, Brendan, was facing similar charges. Meanwhile, Bobby Dassey’s testimony at trial had notable inconsistencies and misleading statements, and an unrelated examination the same week as the murder reportedly revealed that Bobby had scratches on his back. Additionally, shortly after Halbach’s death, a coworker of Tadych’s claimed that he was trying to sell a .22 rifle, the same as the gun believed to be the murder weapon, which he said belonged “to one of the Dassey boys.”
__________________


...do we know Scott Tadych from the documentary and facts about him, I don't recall any or this is online research..?...that's something that I'll look at as well when I've finished it because although I hadn't figured Scott, I did think straight away last night, Bobby....there is so much incriminating in the prosecution using his testimony...(which the defence had not even been made aware of..)...and it goes with the 'last to see her alive' thing of him also being one of the last people and knowing that he could say something to incriminate Avery and cast all eyes away from him, so a 'perfect crime'..?...also, he went off at 2.45pm-ish, he was sure of time because of his plan to go hunting..?...but could have waited for Teresa to drive off and then in some way, either hijacked her car or followed it and killed her/planted evidence at different times as and when he could and so building it all...also with the messages etc that had been erased and the points that these things are often done by the people closest to the victim and that should have been investigated on as well...?...well, as well as 'close to the victim' suspects, it's surely the same with close to the suspect, those would be the immediate suspects to me/within the family..and who more so than a family member who has suddenly come from nowhere... as observing Teresa going to Avery's van and a huge incrimination and contradiction to Avery's statement....

[Ammi]

..excuse me if my typing is awful, my laptop is playing up and letters are not connecting always so it looks like misspellings...

[Niamh.]

...do we know Scott Tadych from the documentary and facts about him, I don't recall any or this is online research..?...that's something that I'll look at as well when I've finished it because although I hadn't figured Scott, I did think straight away last night, Bobby....there is so much incriminating in the prosecution using his testimony...(which the defence had not even been made aware of..)...and it goes with the 'last to see her alive' thing of him also being one of the last people and knowing that he could say something to incriminate Avery and cast all eyes away from him, so a 'perfect crime'..?...also, he went off at 2.45pm-ish, he was sure of time because of his plan to go hunting..?...but could have waited for Teresa to drive off and then in some way, either hijacked her car or followed it and killed her/planted evidence at different times as and when he could and so building it all...also with the messages etc that had been erased and the points that these things are often done by the people closest to the victim and that should have been investigated on as well...?...well, as well as 'close to the victim' suspects, it's surely the same with close to the suspect, those would be the immediate suspects to me/within the family..and who more so than a family member who has suddenly come from nowhere... as observing Teresa going to Avery's van and a huge incrimination and contradiction to Avery's statement....

If you're not finished watching you may not have seen Scott Tadychs court appearance yet, he's more of a suspect for me than Bobby is tbh, this is him :

http://lovelace-media.imgix.net/uploads/1163/82327350-9535-0133-b2e5-0e438b3b98d1.png?w=684&h=513&fit=crop&crop=faces&auto=format&q=70

[Ammi]

..no, I haven't seen him yet so maybe I'll put him together with Bobby as well when I do...but actually Niamh, this is not making sense...(I must get my shower in a minute and stop obsessing over this..:laugh:..)...but the car was planted first and (it seems, planted by the police dept..)..?..so, how would they know that she wasn't alive at that point, that she would be found with an explanation and nothing sinister had happened to her because it was the killer who was the only one/or people who knew she was dead so why/what purpose in planting the car unless they had seen/knew for certain there was a body..?..for them to plant the car and then Teresa be found alive, would just actually expose them more and help Avery's previous case against the more/signing their own fate...

[Ammi]

..also even in finding the car at Avery's, how would they know that the body still wouldn't have been found somewhere else 'the place of death' that would have somehow made it impossible for the car to be where it was and that it had to be planted and that he couldn't have done it..

[Niamh.]

..no, I haven't seen him yet so maybe I'll put him together with Bobby as well when I do...but actually Niamh, this is not making sense...(I must get my shower in a minute and stop obsessing over this..:laugh:..)...but the car was planted first and (it seems, planted by the police dept..)..?..so, how would they know that she wasn't alive at that point, that she would be found with an explanation and nothing sinister had happened to her because it was the killer who was the only one/or people who knew she was dead so why/what purpose in planting the car unless they had seen/knew for certain there was a body..?..for them to plant the car and then Teresa be found alive, would just actually expose them more and help Avery's previous case against the more/signing their own fate...

This is a longer version of that theory which explains it (and also explains why the brother and ex boyfriend were abit shifty because they were lying just not because they actually killed her themselves) :


"The police didn't kill Theresa Halbach. Andrew Colborn located that RAV4 with the assistance of Mike Halbach and Ryan Hillegas who illegally trespassed onto the Avery Salvage Yard on the night of November 3rd 2005. Mike Halbach and Ryan Hillegas suspected something was up since the Avery Salvage Yard was the last place they knew Theresa visited on Oct.31st Halloween day. They went snooping on the property and found the car.

"They checked the car and found the key in the ignition and blood in the cargo area. Mike or Ryan removed the key from the ignition to ensure that no one could easily move the car off of the Avery property... freaked out about this huge discovery they call the Manitowoc Sheriffs Department. Andrew Colborn fielded the call that night and went out and met Ryan and Mike at the Salvage Yard so he could view the car for himself. Ryan and Mike show him the car and to be certain its Halbachs he "calls" in the plate number to dispatch. Colborn has to "call" in... instead of "radio" in... the plate number to Manitowoc dispatch because he wasn't in his police cruiser at the moment, but rather on foot and in the "field' on the Avery Salvage property.

"This mistake places Colborn at the scene and in contact with Halbachs RAV4... 2 days before it is officially located on November 5th, 2005, by Pam Sturm.... This is problematic for Colborn because all call and radio transmissions to dispatch are recorded and logged onto the Manitowoc Police server. Andrew Colborn is now operating outside of police protocol at a potential crime scene that he has no official directive to be at. He tells Mike Halbach and Ryan Hillegas to basically **** about what they found and not mention to anyone that they were ever on the Avery Salvage property that night. Ryan or Mike turns the RAV4 key over to Andrew Colborn.

"Mike and Ryan are told to go home. Andrew Colborn then immediately calls Lt. James Lenk and briefs him about the discovery of the Halbach car and breaches of protocol he committed on the Avery property, also about Ryan Hillegas and Mike Halbach being there. Lt James Lenk realizing that Colborn's calling in Halbachs plate is a serious mistake with potential consequences orders Andrew Colborn to remove the license plate from Halbach's car and then report to him immediately.

"What James Lenk and Andrew Colborn, or the others for that matter, don't realize at this point and are completely unaware of is that Bobby Dassey and Scott Tadych have kidnapped, raped, shot and then burned Theresa Halbach in the privacy of the gravel quarry off of Jambo Rd on Halloween evening. They choose to burn her body to dispose of their DNA evidence of the crimes. They hid Halbach's car in the rear of Avery Salvage and wiped it clean of their prints.

"I believe it is Scott Tadych's idea to secretly transport the cremains of Halbach from the gravel quarry and dispose them into Steven Avery's burn pit. Scott Tadych transports Halbach's cremains in secret by using one of Barb Jandas burn barrels from her yard. Scott Tadych fails to collect all of Halbach's cremains from the original burn site in the gravel quarry, thus leaving some behind that FBI investigators later find... but he also fails in making certain all of Halbach's cremains are out of Barb Jandas burn barrel after dumping them into Steven Avery's burn pit.

"This is why investigators found small bits of Halbach in Barb Jandas burn barrel. Thus making a total of three sites where Halbach's cremains are found. Scott Tadych and Bobby Dassey are unaware that Ryan Hillegas and Mike Halbach have found Theresas car on the property and that Lenk and Colborn are now involved and in play with their scheme. .........By shear colossal luck, two completely independent frame jobs targeting one man, Steven Avery were shaping up into the perfect storm. On one front, from Lenk and Colborn regarding the RAV4, ....and on the other unconnected front by Scott Tadych and Bobby Dassey regarding the cremains of Theresa Halbach. One party wasn't aware of the other's involvements at any point during the days leading up to the official discovery of Halbach's RAV4 at the Avery Salvage Yard hence why the investigation and murder trial made zero sense to anyone especially the Jury.

"None of the evidence could be connected because it was all unrelated... everybody was guessing. But Buting and Strang had zeroed in on a part of it but couldn't fully form a solid defense to prove it. The Jury couldn't conceive that Manitowoc officers could have conspired to kill Theresa Halbach to frame Steven Avery as Ken Kratz insisted they had to if they wanted to follow the theory the defense presented of the frame up of Steven Avery by Manitowoc officials.

"And Ken Kratz was right... Imagine Scott Tadych's confused and utter relief when Steve Avery's blood was found in the Halbach car and the RAV4 key found in Steve Avery's bedroom..... he must have been like.... WTF?! A quote from Scott Tadych after Steven Avery is convicted of Theresa Halbach's murder.... "THIS IS THE GREATEST THING TO EVER HAPPEN" ..... We will see Scott, we will see....................."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2016/01/22/making-a-murderer-steven-avery-brendan-dassey-_n_9048104.html

[Niamh.]

This is also a good point that didn't seem to be mentioned by anyone



Terry W. Howard · DJing at Whiskey's Tavern
Ben Holland Actually yes there were remains were discovered at the Quarry An invetigator testified that ther remains found at the Quarry were pelvic bones and were that of Teresa. What sources are you looking at that show the burn area and there was a burn area at the quarry was not connected. #2 I have been an EMT-I for 17 years and I have been on the scene of several burned bodies. There is a smell of burning and burnt flesh that you will NEVER forget. That is ALL Burnt patients. There was not one person testify to an oder coming from the bonfire at Steven Avery's house that night. I promise you until you have seen and smelled a person that has been completely burned up you can not understand the smell that is involved and it would not be contained to that small area. Everyone around could smell it. Example: I responded to the scene of a vehicl accident with entrapment and fire. The smell was overwhelming and unforgetable. It was a 16 Year old high school student who lost his life. Several months later I responded to a House fire with Possible entrapment. I was over 300 yards away from the house and caught the smell of burning flesh and stated that there was someone in the house. Turned out to be 3 people in the house that died that night. So to me the #1 thing that is omitted by EVERYONE is the smell of burnt flesh coming from the fire at Steven Avery's house that is so close to all the other houses which leads me to believe that the body was burned in a different location and brought to Stevens house via the Barrell next door which implicates Scott Tadych. And would explain that each time he tells his story it changes.

[lostalex]

watching the cops interview Brendan to get the "confession" was the most ridiculous thing i've ever seen. The kid obviously had no idea what he was saying, and they were coaching him to say whatever they wanted to hear the whole time.

[Niamh.]

watching the cops interview Brendan to get the "confession" was the most ridiculous thing i've ever seen. The kid obviously had no idea what he was saying, and they were coaching him to say whatever they wanted to hear the whole time.

Yeah, seemed that way, I might actually watch the full videos sometime though because some people claim that he does put forward information himself without police coaxing but even still the way his first Lawyer behaved was indefensible, he should have been disbarred

[Ammi]

This is a longer version of that theory which explains it (and also explains why the brother and ex boyfriend were abit shifty because they were lying just not because they actually killed her themselves) :


"The police didn't kill Theresa Halbach. Andrew Colborn located that RAV4 with the assistance of Mike Halbach and Ryan Hillegas who illegally trespassed onto the Avery Salvage Yard on the night of November 3rd 2005. Mike Halbach and Ryan Hillegas suspected something was up since the Avery Salvage Yard was the last place they knew Theresa visited on Oct.31st Halloween day. They went snooping on the property and found the car.

"They checked the car and found the key in the ignition and blood in the cargo area. Mike or Ryan removed the key from the ignition to ensure that no one could easily move the car off of the Avery property... freaked out about this huge discovery they call the Manitowoc Sheriffs Department. Andrew Colborn fielded the call that night and went out and met Ryan and Mike at the Salvage Yard so he could view the car for himself. Ryan and Mike show him the car and to be certain its Halbachs he "calls" in the plate number to dispatch. Colborn has to "call" in... instead of "radio" in... the plate number to Manitowoc dispatch because he wasn't in his police cruiser at the moment, but rather on foot and in the "field' on the Avery Salvage property.

"This mistake places Colborn at the scene and in contact with Halbachs RAV4... 2 days before it is officially located on November 5th, 2005, by Pam Sturm.... This is problematic for Colborn because all call and radio transmissions to dispatch are recorded and logged onto the Manitowoc Police server. Andrew Colborn is now operating outside of police protocol at a potential crime scene that he has no official directive to be at. He tells Mike Halbach and Ryan Hillegas to basically **** about what they found and not mention to anyone that they were ever on the Avery Salvage property that night. Ryan or Mike turns the RAV4 key over to Andrew Colborn.

"Mike and Ryan are told to go home. Andrew Colborn then immediately calls Lt. James Lenk and briefs him about the discovery of the Halbach car and breaches of protocol he committed on the Avery property, also about Ryan Hillegas and Mike Halbach being there. Lt James Lenk realizing that Colborn's calling in Halbachs plate is a serious mistake with potential consequences orders Andrew Colborn to remove the license plate from Halbach's car and then report to him immediately.

"What James Lenk and Andrew Colborn, or the others for that matter, don't realize at this point and are completely unaware of is that Bobby Dassey and Scott Tadych have kidnapped, raped, shot and then burned Theresa Halbach in the privacy of the gravel quarry off of Jambo Rd on Halloween evening. They choose to burn her body to dispose of their DNA evidence of the crimes. They hid Halbach's car in the rear of Avery Salvage and wiped it clean of their prints.

"I believe it is Scott Tadych's idea to secretly transport the cremains of Halbach from the gravel quarry and dispose them into Steven Avery's burn pit. Scott Tadych transports Halbach's cremains in secret by using one of Barb Jandas burn barrels from her yard. Scott Tadych fails to collect all of Halbach's cremains from the original burn site in the gravel quarry, thus leaving some behind that FBI investigators later find... but he also fails in making certain all of Halbach's cremains are out of Barb Jandas burn barrel after dumping them into Steven Avery's burn pit.

"This is why investigators found small bits of Halbach in Barb Jandas burn barrel. Thus making a total of three sites where Halbach's cremains are found. Scott Tadych and Bobby Dassey are unaware that Ryan Hillegas and Mike Halbach have found Theresas car on the property and that Lenk and Colborn are now involved and in play with their scheme. .........By shear colossal luck, two completely independent frame jobs targeting one man, Steven Avery were shaping up into the perfect storm. On one front, from Lenk and Colborn regarding the RAV4, ....and on the other unconnected front by Scott Tadych and Bobby Dassey regarding the cremains of Theresa Halbach. One party wasn't aware of the other's involvements at any point during the days leading up to the official discovery of Halbach's RAV4 at the Avery Salvage Yard hence why the investigation and murder trial made zero sense to anyone especially the Jury.

"None of the evidence could be connected because it was all unrelated... everybody was guessing. But Buting and Strang had zeroed in on a part of it but couldn't fully form a solid defense to prove it. The Jury couldn't conceive that Manitowoc officers could have conspired to kill Theresa Halbach to frame Steven Avery as Ken Kratz insisted they had to if they wanted to follow the theory the defense presented of the frame up of Steven Avery by Manitowoc officials.

"And Ken Kratz was right... Imagine Scott Tadych's confused and utter relief when Steve Avery's blood was found in the Halbach car and the RAV4 key found in Steve Avery's bedroom..... he must have been like.... WTF?! A quote from Scott Tadych after Steven Avery is convicted of Theresa Halbach's murder.... "THIS IS THE GREATEST THING TO EVER HAPPEN" ..... We will see Scott, we will see....................."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2016/01/22/making-a-murderer-steven-avery-brendan-dassey-_n_9048104.html



..or...

..the police knew that Teresa had been killed and they knew who killed her, Bobby and Scott..(I have to wait to see Scott and his evidence..)...so knew the close connection of the killers and Avery and the opportunity there...(they pushed and pushed so hard for Brendon's statement and 'admission'/manipulated him, that was so important to them and yet, when they realised that it was in their interest not to include his charges, they're prepared to drop them..?...but if they really and genuinely believed that he was guilty of what they believed him to be, then his part was pretty huge and he shouldn't be out and free, no matter what his vulnerabilities/a pretty messed up guy...)...so if they were prepared to do that, then in their determination to incriminate Avery, then would they also 'do a mutual deal' with killers that allowed them to not be suspects and gave them Avery...so not only a wrongful imprisonment again but also allowing brutal killers to remain free/that's how much they wanted to have Avery in prison...and possibly with the DNA 'ruined and contaminated' because of possible links to Scott and Bobby...


...the police planted part/Scott and Bobby planted part/all in the knowledge that Teresa was dead from the beginning and working together....

[Niamh.]

..or...

..the police knew that Teresa had been killed and they knew who killed her, Bobby and Scott..(I have to wait to see Scott and his evidence..)...so knew the close connection of the killers and Avery and the opportunity there...(they pushed and pushed so hard for Brendon's statement and 'admission'/manipulated him, that was so important to them and yet, when they realised that it was in their interest not to include his charges, they're prepared to drop them..?...but if they really and genuinely believed that he was guilty of what they believed him to be, then his part was pretty huge and he shouldn't be out and free, no matter what his vulnerabilities/a pretty messed up guy...)...so if they were prepared to do that, then in their determination to incriminate Avery, then would they also 'do a mutual deal' with killers that allowed them to not be suspects and gave them Avery...so not only a wrongful imprisonment again but also allowing brutal killers to remain free/that's how much they wanted to have Avery in prison...and possibly with the DNA 'ruined and contaminated' because of possible links to Scott and Bobby...


...the police planted part/Scott and Bobby planted part/all in the knowledge that Teresa was dead from the beginning and working together....


I can't really comment on this until you finish the series :laugh:

(they pushed and pushed so hard for Brendon's statement and 'admission'/manipulated him, that was so important to them and yet, when they realised that it was in their interest not to include his charges, they're prepared to drop them..?...but if they really and genuinely believed that he was guilty of what they believed him to be, then his part was pretty huge and he shouldn't be out and free, no matter what his vulnerabilities/a pretty messed up guy...)

But I don't think the Police knew it was Scott/Bobby, I do think they believed it was Steve

[Niamh.]

Also,

I think Teresas brother really really believed that Steve did it so that would add weight to him having found the car and not seeming too bothered about the Police planting evidence cos he believed that they had a good reason to do it

[Z]

I think Teresa's brother's fixation on Avery/Dassey being responsible is natural in that if that's what the prosecution are telling them, of course they're going to want to believe them, because they want justice for Teresa and they want to believe justice was being done... but, and bearing in mind the show is obviously biased in Steve Avery's favour, the gaping holes in evidence presented in the trial would have surely been enough to sway you into not being totally sure even if you were hell bent on believing Avery did it? I get that perhaps the need to believe it was Avery was always going to trump any evidence to the contrary in his mind, but it was bordering on obsessive in some of the interview clips of him speaking to the media - I mean saying that Brendan Dassey was blatantly lying on the stand and all this stuff... anyone with eyes could see that that boy hasn't a clue what's going on and is seriously mentally handicapped, I don't think he'd be capable of setting up a cleverly constructed web of lies, Jesus Christ...

[lostalex]

I think Teresa's brother's fixation on Avery/Dassey being responsible is natural in that if that's what the prosecution are telling them, of course they're going to want to believe them, because they want justice for Teresa and they want to believe justice was being done... but, and bearing in mind the show is obviously biased in Steve Avery's favour, the gaping holes in evidence presented in the trial would have surely been enough to sway you into not being totally sure even if you were hell bent on believing Avery did it? I get that perhaps the need to believe it was Avery was always going to trump any evidence to the contrary in his mind, but it was bordering on obsessive in some of the interview clips of him speaking to the media - I mean saying that Brendan Dassey was blatantly lying on the stand and all this stuff... anyone with eyes could see that that boy hasn't a clue what's going on and is seriously mentally handicapped, I don't think he'd be capable of setting up a cleverly constructed web of lies, Jesus Christ...

Yea, her brother and the family of teresa definitely reminded me of the Kertchers in the Amanda Knox case, they seem to just want a resolution, and they aren't really that interested in getting to the truth.

It shows that the family of the victim really shouldn't be taken into consideration at all in these types of cases. their opinions really mean nothing. They are too emotional to think clearly and analyze things rationally.

[Niamh.]

I think Teresa's brother's fixation on Avery/Dassey being responsible is natural in that if that's what the prosecution are telling them, of course they're going to want to believe them, because they want justice for Teresa and they want to believe justice was being done... but, and bearing in mind the show is obviously biased in Steve Avery's favour, the gaping holes in evidence presented in the trial would have surely been enough to sway you into not being totally sure even if you were hell bent on believing Avery did it? I get that perhaps the need to believe it was Avery was always going to trump any evidence to the contrary in his mind, but it was bordering on obsessive in some of the interview clips of him speaking to the media - I mean saying that Brendan Dassey was blatantly lying on the stand and all this stuff... anyone with eyes could see that that boy hasn't a clue what's going on and is seriously mentally handicapped, I don't think he'd be capable of setting up a cleverly constructed web of lies, Jesus Christ...

It would make more sense if that theory is true about him and Teresas ex b/f finding the car a few days earlier, they would then be aware that the Police planted some evidence but would think there was a reason for it

[Josy]

I want to know what the scratches and bruises were on the ex bfs hand on the day of the search and,why on earth he was never a suspect, in fact there was never any suspects at all apart from avery which is ridiculous because it's common knowledge that a lot of murders are committed by someone close to the victim

Some woman from the same area called the police and reported suspicious behaviour from her husband apparently he commented about one of the missing person posters of Theresa 'shes dead' she found ripped up females clothes hidden on their property including underwear that weren't hers, her dog also had a bone that she thought could have been humans and so on yet the police never followed any.of it up telling her 'dont worry abour it we have the guy'

[Niamh.]

I want to know what the scratches and bruises were on the ex bfs hand on the day of the search and,why on earth he was never a suspect, in fact there was never any suspects at all apart from avery which is ridiculous because it's common knowledge that a lot of murders are committed by someone close to the victim

Some woman from the same area called the police and reported suspicious behaviour from her husband apparently he commented about one of the missing person posters of Theresa 'shes dead' she found ripped up females clothes hidden on their property including underwear that weren't hers, her dog also had a bone that she thought could have been humans and so on yet the police never followed any.of it up telling her 'dont worry abour it we have the guy'

That sounds scarily similar to the Rape case and how the Police responded to the other Police station who had gotten a confession from Gregory Allen :/

[Josy]

I know :/

[user104658]

Yeah, I fully believe that the police involved in the blatant shenanigans do truly believe that Avery is the killer, and that by making sure he went away that they were doing the right thing by breaking rules to make sure it happened.

They're not evil or trying consciously to put an innocent man away or let a real killer remain free... They're just none too bright, and got sucked into a ridiculous situation because someone else (the killer) got the ball rolling by planting some evidence on an easy target.

Its definitely how I would try to get away with murder :shrug:. Find a creepy guy with a questionable past, someone that people will WANT to believe is guilty, and make sure the spotlight falls on him.

Not that I do much killing... .... ...

[user104658]

OR what if someone in the sheriffs department just really loves cats?

WHAT IF IT'S ALL ABOUT THE CAT?? :omgno:

[Niamh.]

What are your thoughts on that theory about the serial killer Edward Wayne Edwards having done it? Apparently he did alot of his murders on Halloween which was when Teresa was murdered, he framed other people alot of times and he lived only an hour or so away oh and plus I think he was spotted one time at Steve Averys trial

[Niamh.]

OR what if someone in the sheriffs department just really loves cats?

WHAT IF IT'S ALL ABOUT THE CAT?? :omgno:

:laugh:

[Z]

I do think it's a fascinating and well made documentary and I like that its purpose was just to show how flawed the justice system can be, rather than trying to prove Steve's innocence as such - I hope they properly reopen the case and get people who don't have an agenda in to examine the evidence because it's clear that some serious ****ery was going on there to make sure he went away and that that lawsuit never materialised...

[Josy]

That theory has been debunked Nimah, I read that on the avery families fb this morning

[Niamh.]

That theory has been debunked Nimah, I read that on the avery families fb this morning

Oh has it? So hard to follow things like this online and knew what is and isn't true

[Josy]

For anyone that likes to read...

Links to the online transcripts of the court cases etc..

Dassey transcripts and interrogations

http://stevenaveryproject.com/dassey-files/

Avery transcripts and interrogations

http://stevenaveryproject.com/avery-27-day-jury-trial-transcripts/

Under the Avery Transcripts it has 50 or so official crime scene photos.

I've read the Dassey files, and listened to some of the interrogations, haven't even attempted the avery court case files yet, theres lots :/

[Niamh.]

Oh I'm going to give those a look Josy, thanks.

Whatever happened though, even if Steven did do it, I definitely don't believe that it happened in his Trailer or in the Garage where the bullet was found. There's no way he could have left either of those places without a hair/finger print/blood splatter etc if he'd killed and possibly raped her there, no way in the world.

[Ammi]

..I will get around to all of the links at some point, thanks Josy/Niamh..:love:...I've just watched the first court appearance of Scott Tadychs and yeah, his and Bobby's times are both off with each other and the bus driver's I would assume is correct, which would mean as Bobby was so sure of his time of leaving, he couldn't have even seen Teresa take the pics and apparently then walk toward Avery's van....

[Ammi]

Oh I'm going to give those a look Josy, thanks.

Whatever happened though, even if Steven did do it, I definitely don't believe that it happened in his Trailer or in the Garage where the bullet was found. There's no way he could have left either of those places without a hair/finger print/blood splatter etc if he'd killed and possibly raped her there, no way in the world.

..yeah that's it as well, that even up to now, no one had found blood evidence anywhere of her being killed...

[Niamh.]

I started reading the Brendan Interviews and I can't help imitating his voice in my head as i read them :laugh:

[Ammi]

I started reading the Brendan Interviews and I can't help imitating his voice in my head as i read them :laugh:

..OMG, I often have voices in my head when I'm reading things..(not dodgy voices..)...but different 'head' voices for different people ..I think it's because I read out loud so often and always have the voices and expressions of story characters/so it's a habit thing...

[Ammi]

..I think in the end with the closing statements, the prosecuting attorney started to make me doubt his innocence and that all of the police planting of evidence was because they didn't want him to go free and had to get the guilty verdict, whatever it took...it's hard to understand why no one else was investigated from either Steven's family or Teresa's...


..also sad to see how much his parents aged through it all, especially his dad whose breathing didn't sound good at all in times when he was speaking...

[user104658]

..OMG, I often have voices in my head when I'm reading things..(not dodgy voices..)...but different 'head' voices for different people ..I think it's because I read out loud so often and always have the voices and expressions of story characters/so it's a habit thing...
Is your head voice for me sexy and manly, Ammi? A lustrous Scottish treat for the mind-ears? You know it...

[Cal.]

If I'm extremely honest the interview between Teresa's brother and boyfriend was extremely shifty imo.

[Cal.]

I'm sort of interested but at the same time I don't like Steven Avery.

[user104658]

I'm sort of interested but at the same time I don't like Steven Avery.

I don't think avery is a likable character but then, that's sort of the point... He wouldn't be in this situation if he was. It's easy to pin something bad on someone unlikeable.

I can't force myself to care about the fate of Avery himself. However, I am interested in the way the justice system works in America and the way it's all been handled is fascinating. At times the prosecution straight up lies to the jury and it goes mostly unchecked.

Example: stating that they have "scientifically proven" that the blood wasn't planted, when an expert has already explained that this is impossible to prove. The test they used can be used to prove that it WAS planted, by presence of a certain chemical substance. The absence of that substance does NOT mean that it wasn't planted. It's a straight up lie, a misrepresentation of the evidence. How are things like that being allowed?

[Ammi]

Is your head voice for me sexy and manly, Ammi? A lustrous Scottish treat for the mind-ears? You know it...

..(that was probably one of those things that I shouldn't have said out loud..:laugh:..)..I think you probably range somewhere between Sean Connery and weee Jimmy Krankie....(more Mr Connery though, definitely..)...

[Ammi]

I don't think avery is a likable character but then, that's sort of the point... He wouldn't be in this situation if he was. It's easy to pin something bad on someone unlikeable.

I can't force myself to care about the fate of Avery himself. However, I am interested in the way the justice system works in America and the way it's all been handled is fascinating. At times the prosecution straight up lies to the jury and it goes mostly unchecked.

Example: stating that they have "scientifically proven" that the blood wasn't planted, when an expert has already explained that this is impossible to prove. The test they used can be used to prove that it WAS planted, by presence of a certain chemical substance. The absence of that substance does NOT mean that it wasn't planted. It's a straight up lie, a misrepresentation of the evidence. How are things like that being allowed?

..I think it's like that 'pack' thing in a way, obviously a much complicated version but a basic principle..?..of how people will stand up and defend a 'popular and likeable' but not so much with an 'unlikeable'..but then interesting though that the jury were (7 was it..?..) not guilty at the beginning, 2 undecided and just 3 guilty, so very much in his favour and then obviously a guilty was reached...(do we wonder if there was influence on the jury as well/I don't know..)...I think at the end of the trial, I started to think that the police genuinely did think he was guilty, which was their motivation ..they just couldn't leave him out there, a free man...but then, this little 'hick-billy' person that he was had taken the trust, confidence and faith of the citizens of the town away from the police department with the first conviction and wrongful imprisonment, so was it just a pride thing and something they became obsessed with...either way, it's still hard to get my head around the fact that they didn't even attempt to explore any other possibility in their total focus and that no one else was ever a suspect....

[user104658]

Another thing that really bugs me: when the judge is summing up at the sentencing hearing... He talks about Avery's "past crimes", and the fact that his crimes have been of "increasing severity" and that's why he's so dangerous.

He is quite clearly not talking about the cat incident. He is talking about the attempted rape. A crime that, legally, and conclusively, was not committed by Avery. Very, very odd. Is the judge suggesting that he WAS involved? Has he simply forgotten that that conviction was overturned? That someone else is in prison for it?

[Niamh.]

So I just read that Steven Averys ex wife and mother of his children went on to marry Peter Dassey, Brendans dad......wtaf, this just gets weirder and weirder :laugh:

Mathiesen went on to marry Peter Dassey. Now, if that name sounds familiar to you, it should. Peter Dassey is the father of Brendan Dassey, Steven Avery's nephew who was charged as a co-conspirator in the murder of Teresa Halbach after a confession, which he recanted later.


https://www.romper.com/p/what-happened-to-steven-averys-wife-lori-mathiesen-the-answers-just-as-unexpected-as-making-a-murderer-3018

[Niamh.]

The more I read about Steve Avery, the more I dislike him actually

[Z]

I started reading the Brendan Interviews and I can't help imitating his voice in my head as i read them :laugh:

Made me think of this... :laugh:

Weird that his ex-wife married Brendan's dad... very strange family. My mum and her sister used to be married to a pair of brothers, meaning my older brother and my cousin are like... super related. Hahaha. Reminds me of that, all this inter-family stuff that's going on here. I don't really like Steve Avery very much but as Toy Soldier says, that's the point.

[Niamh.]

Made me think of this... :laugh:

Weird that his ex-wife married Brendan's dad... very strange family. My mum and her sister used to be married to a pair of brothers, meaning my older brother and my cousin are like... super related. Hahaha. Reminds me of that, all this inter-family stuff that's going on here. I don't really like Steve Avery very much but as Toy Soldier says, that's the point.

:laugh:

Poor Brendan

[Z]

He is the human personification of Chris Griffin, even their voices are similar:

tTX8CKht3S4

[Niamh.]

Oh I have to wait till lunchtime to listen to that :laugh:

Another thing that's been playing on my mind alot about this case is that vial of blood. Is there any possible logical explanation for the fact that it had that needle hole in it? Is there any reason for that? But if that blood was planted, why would the person who took it stick a needle through it? Why not just open it and then seal it back up? :think:

[Z]

Oh I have to wait till lunchtime to listen to that :laugh:

Another thing that's been playing on my mind alot about this case is that vial of blood. Is there any possible logical explanation for the fact that it had that needle hole in it? Is there any reason for that? But if that blood was planted, why would the person who took it stick a needle through it? Why not just open it and then seal it back up? :think:

Good point, they'd surely have known putting a needle through it would be incriminating if anyone found it... when I was watching the program I just assumed it was so they could get the blood straight into a syringe and then use that to squirt it over the car in the manner that we're shown with only a couple of areas of blood, looked consistent with somebody squirting it at points in the car rather than how it would have happened coming directly from a human body...

[Niamh.]

Good point, they'd surely have known putting a needle through it would be incriminating if anyone found it... when I was watching the program I just assumed it was so they could get the blood straight into a syringe and then use that to squirt it over the car in the manner that we're shown with only a couple of areas of blood, looked consistent with somebody squirting it at points in the car rather than how it would have happened coming directly from a human body...

Yeah but they could have put it in a syringe by opening the top as well and that wouldn't have looked half as suspicious or maybe they it was faster and easier and they just never thought anyone would go check that vial?

[Josy]

A nurse testified that that was how the blood got in there and that she was actually the one that dealt with that exact sample. Shes dead now though.

There was a show on ID about this last night and Stevens old lawyer Jerome Buting was talking about that sample saying the hole on the top wasn't what bothered him but there's blood spilled all round the edge of the actual stopper and that's what was making him suspicious.

[Josy]

Also creepy Kratz was talking through the show last night too and something he said caught my attention, something along the lines of..we had all this evidence but there was one thing we needed and that was an eye witness.

Well then along comes Brendan eh :think:

[Niamh.]

Also creepy Kratz was talking through the show last night too and something he said caught my attention, something along the lines of..we had all this evidence but there was one thing we needed and that was an eye witness.

Well then along comes Brendan eh :think:

Of all the stuff I'm reading everything that comes from Kratz I almost always just disregard, the creepy slimeball

[Niamh.]

A nurse testified that that was how the blood got in there and that she was actually the one that dealt with that exact sample. Shes dead now though.

There was a show on ID about this last night and Stevens old lawyer Jerome Buting was talking about that sample saying the hole on the top wasn't what bothered him but there's blood spilled all round the edge of the actual stopper and that's what was making him suspicious.

They put the blood into the vial originally through that hole?

[Josy]

They put the blood into the vial originally through that hole?

Yeah that's what she said

[Niamh.]

Yeah that's what she said

hhhmmm seems like a weird way to do it but then maybe that's standard? I don't know

[Niamh.]

Josy what do you think about the fact that Michael Griesbach is so sure that Steve Avery did it. He was one of the ones firmly on his side about the Rape conviction

[Josy]

Not sure really but with him being a DA in Manitowoc I don't really feel like I can judge his opinion on it :laugh:

He's wrote a book about it all too.

[Niamh.]

Not sure really but with him being a DA in Manitowoc I don't really feel like I can judge his opinion on it :laugh:

He's wrote a book about it all too.

Yeah i know he's a DA with Manitowoc but he was still on Steves side during that rape case, even in the Documentary plus he's part of the Innocence Project too and by the sounds of it he think Brendan Dasseys rights were violated during his case but he's pretty sure that Steve Avery is rightly convicted

[Josy]

Yeah i know he's a DA with Manitowoc but he was still on Steves side during that rape case, even in the Documentary plus he's part of the Innocence Project too and by the sounds of it he think Brendan Dasseys rights were violated during his case but he's pretty sure that Steve Avery is rightly convicted

Hmm well then I don't really think much of his opinion on it tbh because it's clear for anyone to see that there was a lot of dodgy goings on with the evidence leading up to and during the trial, if he thinks Brendan rights were violated then why not mention the evidence against Steven being questionable too?

He may be right about him being guilty.

[Niamh.]

Hmm well then I don't really think much of his opinion on it tbh because it's clear for anyone to see that there was a lot of dodgy goings on with the evidence leading up to and during the trial, if he thinks Brendan rights were violated then why not mention the evidence against Steven being questionable too?

He may be right about him being guilty.

Well, from what I've read about his comments on it, the only way he thinks some wrong was done in his trial was the fact that Ken Kratz said far too much to the press about Brendan Dasseys statements when Brendan Dasseys version of events was not supposed to be a factor that they were supposed to consider as evidence in Steve Averys case, other than that he thought there was enough evidence to convict Steven.

[Josy]

Well, from what I've read about his comments on it, the only way he thinks some wrong was done in his trial was the fact that Ken Kratz said far too much to the press about Brendan Dasseys statements when Brendan Dasseys version of events was not supposed to be a factor that they were supposed to consider as evidence in Steve Averys case, other than that he thought there was enough evidence to convict Steven.

I don't get that though, if you take away the key, the bullets etc, pretty much any questionable pieces of evidence that Lenk 'found' then what's left that can prove he murdered her without reasonable doubt?

You go back to the main point of having no blood or any dna at all of Theresa's in either of the places she was supposed to have been injured and then murdered.

A DA not seeing any wrong with the evidence during that court case is actually worrying.

[Niamh.]

I don't get that though, if you take away the key, the bullets etc, pretty much any questionable pieces of evidence that Lenk 'found' then what's left that can prove he murdered her without reasonable doubt?

You go back to the main point of having no blood or any dna at all of Theresa's in either of the places she was supposed to have been injured and then murdered.

A DA not seeing any wrong with the evidence during that court case is actually worrying.

Well, the fact that Brendans statement was not part of Steves trial and that Steve was found innocent of the second charge means that they didn't really suggest where he killed her or if he raped her or not just that he was the one who killed her.

I also read somewhere (again I'm not knowing if what I read is true or not) that the reason they're so sure that the pit outside Steves was where the body was burned was because they found wire from the tyres burned there mixed in with her bones. Also, that the bone found in the Quarry was never actually proven conclusively to be Teresas or even 100% certain to be human bone?

Oh also, I read that they did prove that the bullet they found was fired from Steves gun

[Josy]

During one of the trials Kratz mentions she was murdered in the garage, I cant remember if it was Steven or Brendan's trial though but I don't believe for a minute that she was shot in that garage, which is what the bullet evidence is stating I guess? there's no way on earth they could have cleaned that garage and spatter from every item in there without leaving some of it behind, plus the garage floor was dug up too just in case any blood had went through the cracks in the concrete and there wasn't any at all, that plus the fact that it was Lenk that found the bullets after Brendan's statement just further makes it all seem very unlikely IMO.

This is a pic of the wires they say were intertwined with the bones

https://justiceforbradcooper.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/steel-belts1.jpg?w=700&h=367

How can that screwdriver still be there and not melted if that fire was warm enough to burn a human body and completely burn tyres?

That's a genuine question btw :laugh:

[Josy]

The bullet dna test was the one that was contaminated by Sherry's own DNA.

Agent Fassbender told crime lab analyst Sherry Culhane that she needed to “place Teresa Halbach in the house or garage.” She ran a DNA test on the bullet fragment and the control was contaminated which means the results are to be reported as “inconclusive.” Instead, she reported that Teresa Halbach’s DNA was found on the bullet. Of course, it is impossible to trust this evidence.

[Niamh.]

I'm just using you as an expert btw Josy as all these questions come to me as i read :laugh:

I keep flip flopping between thinking he is guilty, he isn't guilty blah blah blah It's melting my head lol

I don't believe Teresa was killed in the garage or Steves trailer. there is no way in the world I believe that they/he could have cleaned up the place good enough for not a single scrap of blood or DNA to be left behind

[Niamh.]

The bullet dna test was the one that was contaminated by Sherry's own DNA.

Ah ok, I'd forgotten about that actually

[Josy]

I'm just using you as an expert btw Josy as all these questions come to me as i read :laugh:

I keep flip flopping between thinking he is guilty, he isn't guilty blah blah blah It's melting my head lol

I don't believe Teresa was killed in the garage or Steves trailer. there is no way in the world I believe that they/he could have cleaned up the place good enough for not a single scrap of blood or DNA was left behind

My heads ruined with it too, then you read some more and think right he definitely done it and then oh god no I don't think he did and so on :laugh:

What's really sad though is that no one will ever really know the truth of what happened to Theresa.

This quote here from a website I was reading is spot on about the corruption though

Some (including prosecutor Ken Kratz) are critical of the documentary suggesting that it was one-sided. I believe anyone who feels that way is missing the point. While many are weighing Avery’s guilt versus innocence, it’s clear the objective of the film was to expose the corruption that existed at every level in this case and they achieved that. Steven Avery and Brendan Dassey lost their right to a fair trial when the Manitowoc Sheriff’s Department became involved in the case. Nothing about the investigation can be trusted, especially in light of the misconduct that occurred during the 1985 case – misconduct that no one has ever been held accountable for. The same players were involved here with so much to lose. It is absolutely outrageous that they were involved, but no one stepped in. The prosecutor could have said “Hey, wait a minute . . . this is concerning, this is inappropriate.” The judges did nothing to stop the unfairness. The judge allowed Dassey’s “confession” even though his attorney was released for failure to represent his client during the interrogations. The judges accepted the evidence obtained by the Manitowoc Sheriff’s Department, even though the officers had no business ever stepping foot on the Avery property.

There are numerous articles criticizing the documentary about evidence that was excluded. I would counter that by adding that there is a considerable amount of misconduct that was also excluded from the series. For example, the Manitowoc coroner learned about the human remains found on the property and immediately began organizing a local team to investigate the death, but officials informed her that her assistance would not be needed. This was very unusual and suspicious, especially considering the fact that there are no photos or footage documenting the discovery of the bones alleged to have been found in the three locations.

[Niamh.]

Yeah, you're right of course, I guess it's just harder to feel the sympathy about a "wrong doing" if you still believe he's a murderer/rapist. I might read Griesbachs book though and see his thoughts, i thought he came across as a reasonable and unbiassed kind of a guy.

Whatever about Steven though, Brendan for me should never have gotten to court because of the behaviour of his original lawyer Len what's his face

[Niamh.]

although actually I won't as apparently the majority of the book is about the rape case

[Ammi]

..what I keep thinking is, is that this is a small town and this is not an experienced police department in serious crimes like rape and murder...that was said in the first case with Gregory Allen...and they didn't even convict the right person for the rape, I mean, a basic thing to get right for a police department..:laugh:...and with all of the planted evidence, well (although he was convicted..).. they did a pretty poor job of that as well/and the radio call when the car was found, really silly blunders...they're not really competent cops are they, in terms of the crimes they have and how to frame someone...so if they did so much wrong, right from the first case that he went to prison for, then I have no confidence in them being certain that he did it and just wanting to make sure that he got convicted...nothing in either of these cases that they're done to a pretty shabby success, has made me think that they're correct in their certainty of the murderer.... 'oh, we got everything else wrong, plus the wrong person before but you can trust us when we say that Steven Avery killed Teresa'....I just don't think that they're competent enough to have even felt sure of that....

[Niamh.]

Oh someone reviewing the book that Greisbach wrote said this, I wasn't aware of this bit of information either (and also only 12 of the 18 years he spent in prison originally were wrongful, 6 of them were for this)

Steven Avery spent 18 years in prison for a crime he did not commit. Mr. Avery is well known in the community for getting in to trouble. Right before he was jailed for this crime, he was in the process of being sentenced for ambushing the deputy Sheriff’s wife off the road and tried to force her into his car. Only he didn’t because she had her young child with her and he let her go. What would have happened if that child was not with her that day, nobody knows?

[Cal.]

I think all the cops involved with this case from Manitowoc County need clearing out. Even if they're not guilty for everything they're being accused of (which is highly doubtful) I doubt they'll be taken seriously again.

[Niamh.]

I think all the cops involved with this case from Manitowoc County need clearing out. Even if they're not guilty for everything they're being accused of (which is highly doubtful) I doubt they'll be taken seriously again.

You could have said that after the first case lol but they still managed to get Brendan Dassey and Steve Avery sent down for life after that :laugh:

[Drew.]

Just got up to the jury's verdict on Netflix, i've never been so confused in my life. I'll go through this thread and read everyone elses opinions soon. Lenk is the biggest fraud in all of this.. how his actions alone didn't let Steven Avery off the hook is crazy. Literally every witness that stood up or anyone giving evidence got caught out for either doing something they shouldn't have or not doing their job correctly. Part of me does believe he could have done it but i can't get my head around how so much evidence was tampered with and how things like the key appearing out of nowhere happened and how obvious it was that a lot of this had nothing to do with Avery. There was no way enough evidence there for him to be found guilty.

[Ammi]

...Brendon's trial...
'What was the stuff you made up'
'Well the stuff that didn't really happen is the stuff I made up'

[Ammi]

..Brendan's trial felt like a complete farce because he was never going to be found not guilty as it had already been established that Avery couldn't have transferred her body from the garage on his own to burn it in his trial, hadn't it..? ...so if Brendon had been found innocent then their conviction against Steven fell apart again...they needed someone/another member of the family to make sure that Steven was convicted and Brendon was the most vulnerable and open to being manipulated, so they chose him...

[Niamh.]

...Brendon's trial...

'What was the stuff you made up'

'Well the stuff that didn't really happen is the stuff I made up'


Poor Brendan lol he was a much more sympathetic character then Steve I found

[Drew.]

Feel sorry for Brendan. Far too much pressure piled onto him for him to cope with. He's not intelligent at all and hasn't got a clue what to do or say.. such an easy target.

[Ammi]

..I think the first conviction and imprisonment is relevant because the police department knew for 10 years that someone else had confessed to the crime and did nothing to ensure the right person was convicted, so the right person being convicted didn't seem any motivation to see justice then...?...yet here, it seemed that all they were trying to do is ensure that the right person was convicted...I don't think that it is only corruption/I think it's more 'personal' than that, that they wanted to make sure that the 'right person' was Steven Avery...

[Niamh.]

..Brendan's trial felt like a complete farce because he was never going to be found not guilty as it had already been established that Avery couldn't have transferred her body from the garage on his own to burn it in his trial, hadn't it..? ...so if Brendon had been found innocent then their conviction against Steven fell apart again...they needed someone/another member of the family to make sure that Steven was convicted and Brendon was the most vulnerable and open to being manipulated, so they chose him...


But they were supposed to be two completely independent cases, Brendan's statement and involvement wasn't even allowed be mentioned in Steves case, in fact in the closing arguments Kratz said "Steve and Steve alone was responsible for Teresa's death"

[Drew.]

http://d3lp4xedbqa8a5.cloudfront.net/s3/digital-cougar-assets/wd/2016/02/01/1454299970488_Brendan-Dassey-and-mother.jpg?width=1174&height=&mode=crop&anchor=topcenter&quality=75

[Niamh.]

Feel sorry for Brendan. Far too much pressure piled onto him for him to cope with. He's not intelligent at all and hasn't got a clue what to do or say.. such an easy target.


It gets even worse when you watch his trial, that made me more angry than Steves

[Drew.]

Just watching that part now.. like Ammi said Brandon was needed to send Steven down as well, the kid is so vulnerable and such an easy target. They took such a different approach on him, it was much more intimidating and he stood no chance at all.

[Niamh.]

His statement should have been inadmissible because he was 16 years old with learning difficulties and he had no lawyer or parent with him during his interrogations

[Drew.]

Re watching the part back where they forced the confession out of him is hard to watch. Brandon crumbles so quickly with all of that evidence in front of him, his actions aren't reliable at all. The way that bloke gets on his phone straight away before Brandon has even left the room tells you he thought he had hit jackpot.. he clearly wasn't interested in anything else whether Brandon was telling the truth or not. He was so desperate to send him down.

[Ammi]

..I'm just not left with the feeling that it was all well intentioned, in that they needed to do some manipulation to ensure the conviction of a killer, it feels like they didn't explore it being anyone else, either in Steven's family or Teresa's or her ex boyfriend...because all they wanted was Steven...and at the expense of Teresa's killer being free, if that had to be the way...

[Niamh.]

Yeah all the properties on the Avery land should have been checked not just Steves, they would surely have just cause to do that since A- the body and car were found there and B- they had Brendan's "confession" of involvement so why not check his house too?

[Drew.]

Far too many situations where they should have done things but they didn't. It really does seem like they were after Steven from the start and had no interest in anything or anyone else.

[Ammi]

...the whole family was thought of as 'the embodiment of evil', not fitting into their 'nice Christian community' ..(and they are an odd family..)...and yeah, Steven burned the cat, which was an evil thing to do and as Josy said, he was already going to be convicted for the gun incident...maybe with the rape, they saw an opportunity to have him imprisoned for longer..?...the artist's impression/drawing of the rapist was then manipulated also to be Steven from his photograph, almost a tracing of it...so maybe all of it/both crimes more personal and ..(yes maybe them thinking that it had to be Steven..)...because who else would commit these evil acts other than this 'evil family'..

[Ammi]

Far too many situations where they should have done things but they didn't. It really does seem like they were after Steven from the start and had no interest in anything or anyone else.

..(I think..)...since he jumped out in front of his cousin's car with the gun and they felt that he wasn't someone who should be a free man and best behind bars...

[Niamh.]

6 years of the rape sentence was for that crime he did commit Ammi, they didn't mention that in the documentary as far as I remember

[Niamh.]

..(I think..)...since he jumped out in front of his cousin's car with the gun and they felt that he wasn't someone who should be a free man and best behind bars...


He actually ran her off the road with his car, pulled the gun on her and tried to get her in his car but he let her go when he realised one of her kids was in the car with her. He does sound like an unhinged creep tbf

[Ammi]

He actually ran her off the road with his car, pulled the gun on her and tried to get her in his car but he let her go when he realised one of her kids was in the car with her. He does sound like an unhinged creep tbf

..that's what I mean though..(sorry, I'm not explaining very well/I'm tired..)...an unhinged creep and burning the cat as well, who knows what he was capable of/not someone to feel safe around...and the whole family really were thought of as evil...so it felt safer to have him in prison for longer than the 6 years if they could, with the rape charge as well..?...and then when Teresa was murdered and it was know that she had visited him, another way to get this unhinged creep back in prison where they thought he belonged for the rest of his life...

[Niamh.]

Mmm yeah I know what you're saying Ammi, just because of the type of person that he seems to be I find it hard to have that much sympathy for him and I do have my doubts about his innocence as well. Brendan I do have a lot of sympathy for though.

Oh also I did look up about those blood sample vials after Josy said that nurses explanation for the needle hole in the top and apparently all those vials have holes in them, that's always how they put the blood in

[Ammi]

Mmm yeah I know what you're saying Ammi, just because of the type of person that he seems to be I find it hard to have that much sympathy for him and I do have my doubts about his innocence as well. Brendan I do have a lot of sympathy for though.

Oh also I did look up about those blood sample vials after Josy said that nurses explanation for the needle hole in the top and apparently all those vials have holes in them, that's always how they put the blood in


..I do know what you mean Niamh, I don't really feel any differently in terms of him doing some pretty disturbing stuff and was going to be sentenced to some imprisonment anyway...sympathy for him is much harder to feel but for obvious reasons, quite easy to feel with Brendan/because of his vulnerabilities...and for us I think that also comes into it/emotions/empathies etc..because we're not only looking 'black and white' and unattached...but that's what the police/justice system have to be though, for them it can't be about things like 'well we think he's a danger to the public and has to be in prison'/type thing, even if they were right about that, he has to have actually done the crime and they have to be convinced of that based on actual evidence, not manipulation of evidence, regardless of what a creepy person he is...otherwise to me, it would just feel like not that much different from vigilantism...


...it's been making me think as well and comparing it to those wrongs we see when police shoot to kill very readily and we think when it wasn't necessary to kill that person...?..and sometimes with those things, we can be told, oh they weren't a very nice person anyway, they'd done this and that and held up at gunpoint one time etc...but those things had no bearing on their being killed though..(except maybe to the police officer..)...maybe those things had a bearing to them when they saw their opportunity to shoot to kill...?..and that would be all kinds of wrong...because then police officers/departments/justice systems etc just become the opposite of the very thing that they're meant to uphold in their oaths....and breach all trust we have in them and have to have in them....

[Ammi]

..mind you, there's also the thing that I'm also thinking..:laugh:...with all of the confusing and conflicting things in this/in terms of evidence and focusing on suspicions there...am I not paying attention to the most important and crucial piece of evidence that he did kill her because we know that Teresa was there, that he directly spoke to her and that no one ever saw her leave ...

[user104658]

..mind you, there's also the thing that I'm also thinking..:laugh:...with all of the confusing and conflicting things in this/in terms of evidence and focusing on suspicions there...am I not paying attention to the most important and crucial piece of evidence that he did kill her because we know that Teresa was there, that he directly spoke to her and that no one ever saw her leave ...

That's purely circumstantial though, it doesn't actually mean anything, so it's not really "good" evidence at all.

Like... let's say, a Jehovah's Witness comes to your house. You're feeling particularly soft that day so you let them in to bang on about jesus and trees and whatever, and your neighbour across the street sees them enter your house. They're there for 10 minutes doing their god stuff, and then they leave, and you never see them again. Your neighbour who saw them entering has gone to take a **** at this point, and doesn't see them leave. 2 days later, that Jehovah's Witness turns up dead in a shallow grave a mile from your house. Loads of people in the area are interviewed and, it turns out on the timeline, the last time this person was seen was when they entered YOUR house. No one ever saw them leave...

How do you feel now Ammi?? What do you have against Jehovah's Witnesses anyway! I mean I know they're annoying and creepy but their hearts are in the right place. They just want to save you from damnation Ammi. And you murder them in cold blood!

[Niamh.]

That's purely circumstantial though, it doesn't actually mean anything, so it's not really "good" evidence at all.

Like... let's say, a Jehovah's Witness comes to your house. You're feeling particularly soft that day so you let them in to bang on about jesus and trees and whatever, and your neighbour across the street sees them enter your house. They're there for 10 minutes doing their god stuff, and then they leave, and you never see them again. Your neighbour who saw them entering has gone to take a **** at this point, and doesn't see them leave. 2 days later, that Jehovah's Witness turns up dead in a shallow grave a mile from your house. Loads of people in the area are interviewed and, it turns out on the timeline, the last time this person was seen was when they entered YOUR house. No one ever saw them leave...

How do you feel now Ammi?? What do you have against Jehovah's Witnesses anyway! I mean I know they're annoying and creepy but their hearts are in the right place. They just want to save you from damnation Ammi. And you murder them in cold blood!

Well yeah but there's a difference between that Jehovahs witness being found a mile from your house and Teresa Halbachs burned remains found on his doorstep pretty much :laugh:

[lostalex]

He actually ran her off the road with his car, pulled the gun on her and tried to get her in his car but he let her go when he realised one of her kids was in the car with her. He does sound like an unhinged creep tbf

everyone in that town seems unhinged and creepy and beyond belief to people like you and me. but the rest of the town is not in jail.

[lostalex]

..mind you, there's also the thing that I'm also thinking..:laugh:...with all of the confusing and conflicting things in this/in terms of evidence and focusing on suspicions there...am I not paying attention to the most important and crucial piece of evidence that he did kill her because we know that Teresa was there, that he directly spoke to her and that no one ever saw her leave ...

if your postman got killed right after he came to your house, does that mean you killed him just because your neighbor didn't see him leave after he delivered your mail?

[Niamh.]

everyone in that town seems unhinged and creepy and beyond belief to people like you and me. but the rest of the town is not in jail.

Yeah lol I know, I'm just not 100% certain that he didn't do it or was involved in some way but I know there should have been plenty of reasonable doubt

[Ammi]

if you're post man got killed right after he came to your house, does that mean you killed him just because your neighbor didn't see him leave after he delivered your mail?

..I did kill him though, he was late a bit too often for my liking...

[user104658]

..I did kill him though, he was late a bit too often for my liking...

Jehovah's witnesses, postmen, cats... what next Ammi? It's a massacre.

[Niamh.]

..I did kill him though, he was late a bit too often for my liking...

Yet another Twist in the tail..Making a Murder 2 - Forum Discussion thread about Avery outs another Killer :o

[Ammi]

That's purely circumstantial though, it doesn't actually mean anything, so it's not really "good" evidence at all.

Like... let's say, a Jehovah's Witness comes to your house. You're feeling particularly soft that day so you let them in to bang on about jesus and trees and whatever, and your neighbour across the street sees them enter your house. They're there for 10 minutes doing their god stuff, and then they leave, and you never see them again. Your neighbour who saw them entering has gone to take a **** at this point, and doesn't see them leave. 2 days later, that Jehovah's Witness turns up dead in a shallow grave a mile from your house. Loads of people in the area are interviewed and, it turns out on the timeline, the last time this person was seen was when they entered YOUR house. No one ever saw them leave...

How do you feel now Ammi?? What do you have against Jehovah's Witnesses anyway! I mean I know they're annoying and creepy but their hearts are in the right place. They just want to save you from damnation Ammi. And you murder them in cold blood!

..I killed the Jehovah's Witness right after I killed the postman because I only do part time, so have to catch up on my work days and fit lots in....yeah, it wasn't so much that I felt that, that it was crucial evidence but more trying to shake off the focus that I've had and whether I was missing pints in doing that...you know how you can often miss things while you're focus is on one thing and mine from the beginning has been on innocence...I've never for one moment been swayed to guilty, so I was trying to see if I could do that really...

[Ammi]

Jehovah's witnesses, postmen, cats... what next Ammi? It's a massacre.

..it was the voices in my head, you know when I read stuff/characters...actually it was your voice so don't play the innocent with me, you're just trying to frame me/I know your game ...

[Ammi]

Yet another Twist in the tail..Making a Murder 2 - Forum Discussion thread about Avery outs another Killer :o

...:laugh:..yeah, I reckon we'll get this thing solved before the weekend, I don't know why it's taking them so long....

[Ammi]

..I'm going to frame Drew for the postman though...

[user104658]

..it was the voices in my head, you know when I read stuff/characters...actually it was your voice so don't play the innocent with me, you're just trying to frame me/I know your game ...

I've actually hidden a small speaker in your house, I just send messages through occasionally.

"Ammiiii, Ammiiiii... this is your head voices speaking... kill, kill, kill, kill..."

[user104658]

..I'm going to frame Drew for the postman though...

I think this is going to be a difficult one to pull off. Given that you have already basically confessed to this killing. And also confessed the fact that you're going to try to frame someone.

To have any chance of success, you'll need to get the same judge & jurors as the Avery trial.

"I did it. I killed them. Here is a detailed explanation of how, why, and when, and also a map to the burial locations of several other anonymous homeless victims that I used for practice."

"We find the defendant NOT GUILTY case dismissed."

[Ammi]

I've actually hidden a small speaker in your house, I just send messages through occasionally.

"Ammiiii, Ammiiiii... this is your head voices speaking... kill, kill, kill, kill..."

..I knew straight away that it was your voice from that irritating little whiny thing you do...:laugh:...

I think this is going to be a difficult one to pull off. Given that you have already basically confessed to this killing. And also confessed the fact that you're going to try to frame someone.

To have any chance of success, you'll need to get the same judge & jurors as the Avery trial.

"I did it. I killed them. Here is a detailed explanation of how, why, and when, and also a map to the burial locations of several other anonymous homeless victims that I used for practice."

"We find the defendant NOT GUILTY case dismissed."


..oh, I need to kill more people to get this right I think...I have a couple of guys here atm doing some stuff so I'll go and see where I left my gun...and get the marigolds on to clean up the stains...

[Josy]

Someone apparently did see Theresa leave, a lorry driver that fills his,tank up just outside avery road.

There's also a video on YouTube with one of the police saying zipperers was her last stop instead of averys.

Not sure what to believe tbh

[Ammi]

Someone apparently did see Theresa leave, a lorry driver that fills his,tank up just outside avery road.

There's also a video on YouTube with one of the police saying zipperers was her last stop instead of averys.

Not sure what to believe tbh

...were these things known through the court case/not called up as witnesses..or is it what has been said after the conviction, do you know..?..

[Niamh.]

It's a pity that they have no way of recovering those deleted Voice Mails, they must be the key, otherwise why bother? :think: Unless they were deleted accidentally of course

[Ammi]

..I'm just having a break or a day or so and then going to start researching online because atm, I don't have any perspective other than Steven's defence side and apart from anything else, it feels wrong to not know more about the victim, they only did that small touching part at the end for her...

[Ammi]

..I was thinking as well that this has been a 'life sentence' for his parents, in and out of courts, fighting for his innocence as they've believed and rightly so the first time and they've done nothing wrong at all...

[MTVN]

Got all through ten eps of this in the last couple of days, one of the most fascinating and disturbing things I've ever seen. Sometimes easy to forget how recently it happened because these small town American sheriff departments being so dodgy and unaccountable is the sort of thing you expect to have been the case back in the 60s or 70s. I'm sorta conscious of relying on the documentary alone to make a judgement though so will have to read up on some stuff later (although I do think the documentary alone shows that neither of the trials were at all fair). In a way I wonder if the film makers should have released it a lot earlier so that it could have come to worldwide attention before they've both rotted in jail for nearly ten years, imagine their chances of a retrial are a lot stronger now and that there's a lot more lawyers/innocence projects interested in taking on the cases.

I agree that Brendan's treatment was more disturbing in many ways as well, especially by his supposed lawyer and that investigator. Seems like his second lawyers for the main trial actually missed quite a few tricks as well; sometimes they seemed really competent but its strange that they agreed to cut the video confession short and that they were never aware of or never made it clear how Brendan was pretty much forced into making that drawing. Or did they present that and they just didn't show it in the documentary?

Another thing that really bugs me: when the judge is summing up at the sentencing hearing... He talks about Avery's "past crimes", and the fact that his crimes have been of "increasing severity" and that's why he's so dangerous.

He is quite clearly not talking about the cat incident. He is talking about the attempted rape. A crime that, legally, and conclusively, was not committed by Avery. Very, very odd. Is the judge suggesting that he WAS involved? Has he simply forgotten that that conviction was overturned? That someone else is in prison for it?

Yeah that got me as well. Saying his crimes got worse as he got older? The guy had only been free two years after spending 18 inside for a crime he hadn't committed, how can you use that as a basis for handing down a longer sentence.

[GiRTh]

This one goes into a bit more detail actually

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2016/01/22/making-a-murderer-steven-avery-brendan-dassey-_n_9048104.htmlI'm almost caught up with this. I'm surprised I didnt know about this case as I usually find this kind of stuff fascinating and am always a sucker for a good conspiracy theory.:joker:

The theory highlighted in the link is as close to perfect in terms of explaining most of the evidence put forward during the documentary. Particulary the time line of Theresa's murder, the mysterious 'calling in' of the license plate two days before it was officially found, the lack of forensic evidence in the garage or on Averys property and the very shifty nature of Theresa's brother and boyfriend when they first appear in the film. Its still highly implausible that two separate groups of people tried to frame Avery at the same time while being complete unaware of the others efforts, but it all makes the story even more fascinating.

[Niamh.]

I'm almost caught up with this. I'm surprised I didnt know about this case as I usually find this kind of stuff fascinating and am always a sucker for a good conspiracy theory.:joker:

The theory highlighted in the link is as close to perfect in terms of explaining most of the evidence put forward during the documentary. Particulary the time line of Theresa's murder, the mysterious 'calling in' of the license plate two days before it was officially found, the lack of forensic evidence in the garage or on Averys property and the very shifty nature of Theresa's brother and boyfriend when they first appear in the film. Its still highly implausible that two separate groups of people tried to frame Avery at the same time while being complete unaware of the others efforts, but it all makes the story even more fascinating.

Yeah, good luck actually proving that theory tbh lol but it makes everything fit so perfectly :laugh: I am still mystified though as to why they didn't search all the properties in the Averys land after the car and remains were found there and they'd found no DNA in Steves trailer or garage

[Josy]

Been reading some more stuff I never knew about on the Steven Avery profect fb page...

Someone anonymously sent a letter to the sheriff's office (there's pics of the actual letter) at the start of the investigation telling them the body was burned on the Friday morning at 3am in an aluminium smelter, the Manitowoc officers ignored the letter.

The bullet with the dna on it couldn't actually be confirmed to have come from Steven Avery's gun, they couldn't tell that, due to it being squashed and they were unable to identify the markings on the side of it, all they could tell is it came from 'A' .22. The prosecution decided to say it was definitely identified as Stevens gun.

Scott T was known to be trying to sell a .22 round about this time.

[Josy]

Oh and Scott T apparently had access to an aluminium smelter at work :eek:

[Niamh.]

Scotty t? :o

[Josy]

Theres 2 main fb pages ive been reading, one is run by someone from a neighbouring town and the excused jury member, they discuss allsorts on there.

The other is run by the family with some help, Brendans mum and Stevens niece, they don't allow anyone to discuss the fact that Scott, Bobby have been suspicious throughout.

[Niamh.]

But yeah, if I were to go with any other person doing it, it's him

[Josy]

Scotty t? :o

:laugh:

I can't remember how to spell the second name

[Niamh.]

Theres 2 main fb pages ive been reading, one is run by someone from a neghbouring town and the excused jury member, they discuss allsorts on there.

The other is run by the family with some help, Brendans mum and Stevens niece, they don't allow anyone to discuss the fact that Scott, Bobby have been suspicious throughout.

I wonder why not? especially when Steve is claiming it's his brothers

[Niamh.]

:laugh:

I can't remember how to spell the second name

Starts thread in the CBB section


Scotty Murdered Teresa halbach

[Josy]

I wonder why not? especially when Steve is claiming it's his brothers

Yeah I know.

The papers over there must be having a field day though because the other day Brendans mum came on and posted that her husband, son Bobby and her other 2 brothers are not murderers regardless of what the media says

[Josy]

Starts thread in the CBB section


Scotty Murdered Teresa halbach

:joker:

[GiRTh]

Yeah, good luck actually proving that theory tbh lol but it makes everything fit so perfectly :laugh: I am still mystified though as to why they didn't search all the properties in the Averys land after the car and remains were found there and they'd found no DNA in Steves trailer or garageAgree. The scrap yard was huge; easily big enough for the murder to have been committed elsewhere on the property and Theresa body dumped in Steven Avery's burn pit.

[Niamh.]

Agree. The scrap yard was huge; easily big enough for the murder to have been committed elsewhere on the property and Theresa body dumped in the Steven Avery's burn pit.

Yeah plus there was a few other Avery families living there, his brothers, and Brendans family atleast

[Drew.]

I never did trust Brendans brother in any of this as well. He was so shifty and quick to make it look like Stephen had been up to something.. he was far too suspicious looking.

[Niamh.]

I never did trust Brendans brother in any of this as well. He was so shifty and quick to make it look like Stephen had been up to something.. he was far too suspicious looking.

yeah and Brendans step dad was even worse I think

[GiRTh]

Yeah plus there was a few other Avery families living there, his brothers, and Brendans family atleastTrue. The fact that Bobby Dassey and Scott Tadych alibied each other, no one else alibied them and they didnt alibi any one else but each other. Also, their alibi were a bit too convenient; to happen to pass each other on the road while going on separate hunting trips at the time the murder was being committed? Its all a a bit shifty.

[Niamh.]

True. The fact that Bobby Dassey and Scott Tadych alibied each other, no one else alibied them and they didnt alibi any one else but each other. Also, their alibi were a bit too convenient; to happen to pass each other on the road while going on separate hunting trips at the time the murder was being committed? Its all a a bit shifty.

Yeah plus Scott was caught out on the stand with times he gave in his original statement to what he was testifying to in court

[Drew.]

yeah and Brendans step dad was even worse I think

Yeah, i think thats the thing that gets me more than anything.. the fact Stephen was the only target in all of this, however suspicious other people were and even if there were the slightest signs anyone else could have murdered her or been involved there just wasn't any interest in them, It was just Avery they wanted from the start. But then maybe i've just answered my own questions.. all they wanted was Avery.

[GiRTh]

Yeah plus Scott was caught out on the stand with times he gave in his original statement to what he was testifying to in courtI almost forgot about that. So much backtracking was done by witnesses on the stand it was hard to believe anyone.

[Niamh.]

I almost forgot about that. So much backtracking was done by witnesses on the stand it was hard to believe anyone.

Well it's hard to believe that there wasn't reasonable doubt there, that's for sure

[GiRTh]

Well it's hard to believe that there wasn't reasonable doubt there, that's for sureAgree. The entire Police department lied at some point in the trial.

Was the mysterious 'calling in' of the license plate ever explained?

[Niamh.]

Agree. The entire Police department lied at some point in the trial.

Was the mysterious 'calling in' of the license plate ever explained?

I don't think so, Josy said that he just said "he didn't recall" and that was that

[GiRTh]

I don't think so, Josy said that he just said "he didn't recall" and that was thatThe whole department should take early retirement. :joker:

[Niamh.]

The whole department should take early retirement. :joker:

Yeah, that licence plate call was thing that stuck out in my mind the most about Steves case just after I finished watching the series too

[GiRTh]

Yeah, that licence plate call was thing that stuck out in my mind the most about Steves case just after I finished watching the series tooIts why I like the conspiracy theory that Avery was framed by two groups of people. I dont think that theory is true but it does explain everything we see in the film. :joker:

[Niamh.]

Its why I like the conspiracy theory that Avery was framed by two groups of people. I dont think that theory is true but it does explain everything we see in the film. :joker:

I know it really does, you never know, sometimes truth is stranger than fiction :laugh:

The only thing about that theory though is what could the ex boyfriend and brother have been erasing from her voice mails

[user104658]

Was the mysterious 'calling in' of the license plate ever explained?

My theory is that the car was first discovered before they had a warrant to seach the property. If they had admitted that, the car wouldn't be able to be used as evidence in court at all (and they used it quite heavily).

[Niamh.]

My theory is that the car was first discovered before they had a warrant to seach the property. If they had admitted that, the car wouldn't be able to be used as evidence in court at all (and they used it quite heavily).

So even f that whole theory isn't true, certainly the first part about the brother and the ex finding the car could very well be. Infact I'm pretty convinced that it is

[GiRTh]

My theory is that the car was first discovered before they had a warrant to seach the property. If they had admitted that, the car wouldn't be able to be used as evidence in court at all (and they used it quite heavily).This makes sense. The call was definitely a breech of protocol but they needed the car to make their case against Avery.

[GiRTh]

So even f that whole theory isn't true, certainly the first part about the brother and the ex finding the car could very well be. Infact I'm pretty convinced that it isThat explains their shifty behaviour when we first see them.

[Ammi]

..I've only just started to look some of this up after watching the series and obviously a lot of these sites and 'theories' seem to be so conflicting from what's being posted...anyway, this is one site I found...(sorry if it's been posted before but I'm googling myself, rather than look at other kinks atm..)...

http://stevenaveryinnocent.com/2016/01/08/14-pieces-of-troubling-evidence-making-a-murderer-left-out-or-glossed-over/



..anyways, just a few of the 'highlights' that we weren't told..(and don't know if true..)...

The criminal complaint contended that authorities “located items of restraints within Steven Avery’s residence including hand cuffs and leg irons.”

According to a lengthy Milwaukee Magazine story from May 1, 2006, Avery admitted they were his, stating of the handcuffs and leg irons, “I bought them. I wanted to try out something different with Jodi (his girlfriend).”

Of course, it’s also very curious that Halbach’s DNA didn’t turn up on these handcuffs and leg irons if they were used to restrain her.




The Netflix documentary paints the romance of Jodi and Steven as a positive one. It may have been in some ways, but there were also some problems.

According to the Milwaukee magazine story, “In September 2004, sheriff deputies arrested Avery for violating a disorderly conduct ordinance after an altercation with (Jodi) Stachowski. The court ordered him to stay away from the woman for 72 hours and pay a fine of $243.”



The Milwaukee Magazine article further stated that, “On February 27, Dassey’s mother spoke with police investigators. Barbara Janda, 41, mentioned that her son had stained his pants while helping his uncle clean his garage floor around Halloween.” Also, according to the Department of Justice investigator’s testimony in Dassey’s trial, Dassey’s pants had bleach stains that he said were from helping clean the garage, transcripts say.





According to an Appleton Post Crescent article from March 9, 2006, “While he was in prison, Steven Avery planned the torture and killing of a young woman, new documents released Wednesday indicate. The allegations are included in 22 pages of court documents accompanying additional charges filed by Calumet County Dist. Atty. Ken Kratz. … Kratz also included in Wednesday’s filings statements from prisoners who served time with Avery at Green Bay Correctional Institution. They said Avery talked about and showed them diagrams of a torture chamber he planned to build when he was released.”

Furthermore, reported the newspaper, “The filings also include statements from a woman, now 41, who said she was raped by Avery, who told her ‘if she yelled or screamed there was going to be trouble.’ There also is an affidavit from a girl who said she was raped by Avery. ‘The victim’s mother indicated that the victim does not want to speak about the sexual assault between her and Steven Avery because Steven Avery told her if she ‘told anyone about their activities together he would kill her family,'” the filing said. According to the newspaper article, “The affidavit said Avery admitted to his fiancee that he had sexually assaulted the girl.”



Avery gave a false name when he called Auto Trader

[MTVN]

Interesting reading about a book which has just come out here about Avery, I saw it in the shops the other day and presumed it was going to be defending Avery because it's called 'The Innocent Killer' but apparently the guy who wrote it actually argues that he is guilty and that the trial was fair, even defends Lenk and Colburn:

Contrary to the insinuations of Making a Murderer, Mr Griesbach calls Lenk and Colburn “two of the most ethical cops I’ve ever worked with”. He added: “I can see why people think evidence was planted, but I don’t believe they did it. Should they have been searching Steven Avery’s home? Absolutely not. But I don’t think it was malice on their part, I think it was just poor judgement.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/steve-avery-making-a-murderer-turned-me-into-public-enemy-number-one-says-wisconsin-official-a6856546.html

[Drew.]

I'm pretty uncertain on most things about this and have my own theories as to what happened but the one thing i'm almost certain on more than anything is that Lenk and Colburn planted evidence and set Avery up along the way.

[Drew.]

The Milwaukee Magazine article further stated that, “On February 27, Dassey’s mother spoke with police investigators. Barbara Janda, 41, mentioned that her son had stained his pants while helping his uncle clean his garage floor around Halloween.” Also, according to the Department of Justice investigator’s testimony in Dassey’s trial, Dassey’s pants had bleach stains that he said were from helping clean the garage, transcripts say.




Haven't seen this before. But i'm sure i read somewhere that had they cleaned the garage it still would have been a near impossible task to clean away all the blood that would have spread around the place. Just from the way Brendan comes across, i can't imagine him being calm and relaxed enough to do such a thorough job

[Josy]

I want to know how they managed to clean the garage then put the dust back because that is some real ninja ****.

[Josy]

Averys new lawyer was.in Manitowoc this week with a forensic team to redo some up to date luminol testing.

There's also some rumours of a new suspect and that they were actually Theresas last stop that day, and the guys grandson who is in jail atm has asked to speak to the lawyer about what really happened.

If you Google zipperers there's quite a few theories

[Drew.]

I live for the day Brendan gets released after being found innocent and collects his $10 million dollars because of it.

[DemolitionRed]

I've just watched the first two and need to do some catching up before I can properly comment. So far its a police set up but I need to watch the rest.

[Cal.]

OMG @ the end of the episode 5. Colburn (?) clearly knew what car it was 2 days before the car was found.

[GiRTh]

OMG @ the end of the episode 5. Colburn (?) clearly knew what car it was 2 days before the car was found.That always bother me and it was never explained why he called it in.

[MTVN]

Seen some people mention that Colburn specified whether it was a 1999 Toyota which is something that you wouldn't know just by looking at the car so he could have been making the call just to verify some information he had seen or been told about

[Cal.]

Seen some people mention that Colburn specified whether it was a 1999 Toyota which is something that you wouldn't know just by looking at the car so he could have been making the call just to verify some information he had seen or been told about

This would be believable if he didn't look utter terrified after it was brought up. He knew he'd ****ed up.

[MTVN]

This would be believable if he didn't look utter terrified after it was brought up. He knew he'd ****ed up.

True but then just the fact that he knows how it would look could make him terrified especially in that situation where its clear that the defence is implying you've been framing someone

[Cal.]

True but then just the fact that he knows how it would look could make him terrified especially in that situation where its clear that the defence is implying you've been framing someone

Yeah that's true.

[user104658]

Seen some people mention that Colburn specified whether it was a 1999 Toyota which is something that you wouldn't know just by looking at the car so he could have been making the call just to verify some information he had seen or been told about
Why wouldn't he just say that, though?

Also, I don't know how regarding plates work in the US, but is there really nothing that identifies the year? You'd know in the UK straight away, unless it had a private plate.

[MTVN]

Well I think he did say he was checking information he'd been told didn't he, and also I think he just generally seized up on the stand. I wondered that about the license plates as well but was just relaying something I'd read elsewhere so not sure how US plates work. There is also the fact that the car had its plates removed when it was found so the theory that he was looking at it relies on him ditching the plates himself and I don't see why he would do that?

[GiRTh]

Another thing, he called in the license plate instead of radioing in. This implies he wasn't in a squad car and thus could have been off duty when it happened. Given the sensitive nature of the case and the involvement of the Manitowoc police, why was he checking plates off duty?

His lack of explanation for any of this is astonishing.

[Cal.]

Was his off duty investigation whilst the Averys were still allowed on their property?

Kinda dangerous for him to be wandering around their 40 acre property with no squad car in the middle of nowhere with no warrant - especially when there was suspected murderers living on the property :conf:

[GiRTh]

It was two days before the car was found so the Averys would probably still have access to the property.

[Ammi]

..I can't recall if it was said that Sherry Culhane, the state forensic examiner who messed up the test was the same person who got the DNA completely wrong in the first wrongful imprisonment case and said that a hair was Steven's, when it had been Gregory Allen's...

Culhane said DNA tests of a hair taken from the 1985 assault victim — one of the same hairs that Culhane had testified nearly two decades earlier was “consistent” with Avery’s — was in fact from another man, Gregory Allen, a dangerous sexual offender who had been on the radar of local police for years.

..I'm starting to think with the whole case that it was less conspiracy and more general incompetence...

[Ammi]

Averys new lawyer was.in Manitowoc this week with a forensic team to redo some up to date luminol testing.

There's also some rumours of a new suspect and that they were actually Theresas last stop that day, and the guys grandson who is in jail atm has asked to speak to the lawyer about what really happened.

If you Google zipperers there's quite a few theories

..I've started to read some of the George Zipperer stuff and it is interesting because it would be feasible that he killed her..(shot her/thinking she was a trespasser..)...and then drove her car though the entrance near where it was found/also explaining the lack of blood everywhere at Avery's etc...and then the rest is history/type thing...the police illegally find the car when they shouldn't have been there, believed it was Avery and had to ensure his conviction/planted some DNA/the key...and also interesting that one of the things being said at the moment is that he's just torn his garage down..(where any evidence would have been..?..)...but then 10 years has passed so his garage was probably just past it's sell by date and needed replacing..:laugh:..I don't know, all of the potential suspects just all seem like dodgy characters/shifty to me, which is the problem...

[Ammi]

..also with one of the Zipperer theories, is that the blooming dog did it, he had threatened to have his dog eat any trespasser on his land...so the dog killed her and he had to cover that up...

[Ammi]

http://www.look.co.uk/sites/default/files/imagecache/scaled_620px_wide/mam18.jpg

[Ammi]

..Josy/Niamh..(I can't find the autopsy report online..)..have we seen that..?..


..I'm probably being dumb here but with only charred bones/teeth etc and no confession from Steven Avery, how was it known about hand and ankle cuffed/rape/torture/her throat slit ..?..which would mean no blood/dna evidence if those never happened but wouldn't mean he hadn't killed her/burned her body though...and the 'confession' from Brendon told them nothing that they weren't manipulating him to confess, so they already seemed to know these things had happened anyway but how..?..

[user104658]

..Josy/Niamh..(I can't find the autopsy report online..)..have we seen that..?..


..I'm probably being dumb here but with only charred bones/teeth etc and no confession from Steven Avery, how was it known about hand and ankle cuffed/rape/torture/her throat slit ..?..which would mean no blood/dna evidence if those never happened but wouldn't mean he hadn't killed her/burned her body though...and the 'confession' from Brendon told them nothing that they weren't manipulating him to confess, so they already seemed to know these things had happened anyway but how..?..

The restraining, rape and throat (and hair) cutting are all purely from the "confession" of Brendan Dassey.

They manipulated the part about the rape because they needed to suggest a motive for Avery to have killed her. The throat cutting, purely and simply, is because they wanted Brendan to say that he saw Avery shoot her in the head and so they kept saying "What about the head, Brendan. Something about her head?" and two of his blatant GUESSES were that her throat was cut and that her hair was cut off.

So they had to write that ridiculous narrative that they cut her throat but she didn't die so they then also shot her. Because the throat cutting comment was already on tape.

The physical evidence proves two things ONLY about her death: she was shot in the head, and the body was burned. That's it.

[Ammi]

The restraining, rape and throat (and hair) cutting are all purely from the "confession" of Brendan Dassey.

They manipulated the part about the rape because they needed to suggest a motive for Avery to have killed her. The throat cutting, purely and simply, is because they wanted Brendan to say that he saw Avery shoot her in the head and so they kept saying "What about the head, Brendan. Something about her head?" and two of his blatant GUESSES were that her throat was cut and that her hair was cut off.

So they had to write that ridiculous narrative that they cut her throat but she didn't die so they then also shot her. Because the throat cutting comment was already on tape.

The physical evidence proves two things ONLY about her death: she was shot in the head, and the body was burned. That's it.



...but didn't they 'suggest' specific things to Brendon first though, what they wanted to hear..so some pretty gruesome imaginations from those detectives...oh, yeah that'll do, she's suffered enough, we're happy with that.../I'm not being flippant, it's all pretty sick tbh...one of the things that I've been considering this whole time though, is no blood, no evidence of restraint etc and lack of forensics and how that's explained....and was Steven that 'clever' to clear everything up to the extent that some DNA had to be planted...but the likelihood is, that none of it was ever there in the first place so doesn't slant toward his possible innocence at all....

[Ammi]

The restraining, rape and throat (and hair) cutting are all purely from the "confession" of Brendan Dassey.

They manipulated the part about the rape because they needed to suggest a motive for Avery to have killed her. The throat cutting, purely and simply, is because they wanted Brendan to say that he saw Avery shoot her in the head and so they kept saying "What about the head, Brendan. Something about her head?" and two of his blatant GUESSES were that her throat was cut and that her hair was cut off.

So they had to write that ridiculous narrative that they cut her throat but she didn't die so they then also shot her. Because the throat cutting comment was already on tape.

The physical evidence proves two things ONLY about her death: she was shot in the head, and the body was burned. That's it.



...being shot in the head, which is the only thing we know as cause of death would be more of an execution killing..?...which wouldn't be the 'profile' of this creepy/disturbed person that Steven has displayed signs of in burning the cat...

[Drew.]

...being shot in the head, which is the only thing we know as cause of death would be more of an execution killing..?...which wouldn't be the 'profile' of this creepy/disturbed person that Steven has displayed signs of in burning the cat...

If Avery is as disturbed as he's been made out to be i wouldn't have thought a bullet to the head would be his type of style.. it's the easy/quick way to settle things. I guess if she was held alive for quite a while and Avery had got his pleasure from doing whatever he was doing & then wanted to get rid of her as quickly as possible then it could be considered.. but having her held alive for a long time would have been noticeable within the group of family members that live there.

It's just another situation where it looks more likely that someone else did do it or that shooting her in the head was the best and quickest option to kill her off if he was being set up by someone else..

[Ammi]

If Avery is as disturbed as he's been made out to be i wouldn't have thought a bullet to the head would be his type of style.. it's the easy/quick way to settle things. I guess if she was held alive for quite a while and Avery had got his pleasure from doing whatever he was doing & then wanted to get rid of her as quickly as possible then it could be considered.. but having her held alive for a long time would have been noticeable within the group of family members that live there.

It's just another situation where it looks more likely that someone else did do it or that shooting her in the head was the best and quickest option to kill her off if he was being set up by someone else..

...but then I keep coming back to 'most murders/murderers' are either someone close to the victim or the last person to be known to see her alive..?..and we have some possible suspects, on the Avery property or her brother or ex..?..and then we go into all of the 'conspiracies' and 'theories' with them and the things that could be seen to be shady etc...but the 'obvious' would be that Steven did kill her, it's the most logical in a way because her charred bones and her car were there and he was the last person to see her...and if it hadn't been for his 18yr wrongful conviction, would we all not be thinking that...but that's complicated it obviously because he's professed innocence again...and I do think that the police dept did illegally find her car on the property when they shouldn't have been there, so obviously there has been some covering up there, making it all look 'corrupt' and 'framed'..and they obviously manipulated some evidence as well, to try to place her in Steven's van and ensure his conviction...that's just Steven obviously, not Brendon...

[GiRTh]

...but then I keep coming back to 'most murders/murderers' are either someone close to the victim or the last person to be known to see her alive..?..and we have some possible suspects, on the Avery property or her brother or ex..?..and then we go into all of the 'conspiracies' and 'theories' with them and the things that could be seen to be shady etc...but the 'obvious' would be that Steven did kill her, it's the most logical in a way because her charred bones and her car were there and he was the last person to see her...and if it hadn't been for his 18yr wrongful conviction, would we all not be thinking that...but that's complicated it obviously because he's professed innocence again...and I do think that the police dept did illegally find her car on the property when they shouldn't have been there, so obviously there has been some covering up there, making it all look 'corrupt' and 'framed'..and they obviously manipulated some evidence as well, to try to place her in Steven's van and ensure his conviction...that's just Steven obviously, not Brendon...
Another thing that always bothered me about Theresa's ex was that he couldn't recall if he saw her in the morning, afternoon or evening on OCT 30th the day before she disappeared. This was the last time he saw a woman he had a five year relationship with, how can he not remember if it was morning or evening, yet he did remember the meeting took place in her house?

[Cal.]

Another thing that always bothered me about Theresa's ex was that he couldn't recall if he saw her in the morning, afternoon or evening on OCT 30th the day before she disappeared. This was the last time he saw a woman he had a five year relationship with, how can he not remember if it was morning or evening?

Ugh that guy really annoys me.

'I don't recall' 'I think' I believe..' like UGH TELL THE TRUTH.

When he was acting like he found it hard to recall how they found her voicemail password, I'd say it's pretty hard for an adult to forget something like that :umm2:

[MTVN]

...but didn't they 'suggest' specific things to Brendon first though, what they wanted to hear..so some pretty gruesome imaginations from those detectives...oh, yeah that'll do, she's suffered enough, we're happy with that.../I'm not being flippant, it's all pretty sick tbh...one of the things that I've been considering this whole time though, is no blood, no evidence of restraint etc and lack of forensics and how that's explained....and was Steven that 'clever' to clear everything up to the extent that some DNA had to be planted...but the likelihood is, that none of it was ever there in the first place so doesn't slant toward his possible innocence at all....

Well that was part of Kratz's argument that Brendan went into so much detail that it would have been hard for him to invent on the spot. He wasn't really responding to any prompts or suggestions when he gave the full account of her being restrained to the bed and Steven telling him to rape her before stabbing her. According to Brendan in his trial he got it all out of the book 'Kiss the Girls': http://www.bustle.com/articles/133445-kiss-the-girls-vs-brendan-dasseys-confession-could-he-have-been-inspired-by-the-book

there are definitely some brutal scenes of violence against women in the book, as well as in its film adaptation. Like this extremely graphic scene from the movie [which] features a girl who has been strapped into a bed by a kidnapper. The book goes into disturbing, graphic detail about the violent sexual acts committed against the female characters. Chapter 28, in particular, features the rape of character Kate McTeirnan in explicit detail. Other moments in the book feature women having their legs "hung from a rope tied to a ceiling beam” and having their feet cut off "with some kind of razor-sharp knife."

One detail in particular stands out above all others — but it's only in the movie version of Kiss the Girls. In Dassey's confession, he claimed that Avery cut off some of Halbach's hair before burning her alive. As Reddit user IM_CASTER_TROY points out, this detail is "only in the movie [version of Kiss The Girls]."

While the book does feature a variety of violent scenes against women, there is no scene that directly mirrors Dassey's story of a woman tied up, raped by multiple men, stabbed, shot, and burned. The comparisons between Dassey's story and the book/movie seem to begin and end with sexual violence committed against a woman tied to bed, and also the cutting of hair. But if Dassey was a fan of these crime thrillers (whether in book or movie form) which have detailed descriptions of sexual violence, it's not unreasonable to theorize that he could have mixed-and-matched details from different, similar stories to create a confession, if his confession is false as he alleges.

[Ammi]

Another thing that always bothered me about Theresa's ex was that he couldn't recall if he saw her in the morning, afternoon or evening on OCT 30th the day before she disappeared. This was the last time he saw a woman he had a five year relationship with, how can he not remember if it was morning or evening, yet he did remember the meeting took place in her house?

...yeah, the times were definitely weird also because it meant the difference between daylight and dark and how could you not recall that either...

Well that was part of Kratz's argument that Brendan went into so much detail that it would have been hard for him to invent on the spot. He wasn't really responding to any prompts or suggestions when he gave the full account of her being restrained to the bed and Steven telling him to rape her before stabbing her. According to Brendan in his trial he got it all out of the book 'Kiss the Girls': http://www.bustle.com/articles/133445-kiss-the-girls-vs-brendan-dasseys-confession-could-he-have-been-inspired-by-the-book

..I've seen that movie/it's one of the Alex Cross/detective ones..I missed when Brendan said that in his trial/that it was something he read in the book....hmmm, so he was 'led by a book', he was 'led by Steven'.../both being 'led'/influenced...we know that he's vulnerable and his appearance is vulnerable as well, whereas Steven's appearance is creepy, so there isn't the same warming to him/empathies...but maybe Brendan could have raped her and with influence by the book, we didn't know of his mental health really...and then Steven could have shot Teresa to protect Brendan, an 'execution'/shot to the head..especially as he'd been through a trial and prison himself as well and burned her body, to cover it up..other members of the family could also have been involved or aware of it all, but the police dept were only interested in investigating Steven and using Brendan to help convict him, so the key was planted in Steven's van.../and any other family members only needed as eyewitnesses that Teresa was there...

[Ammi]

..that 'theory' is based on this movie...:laugh:...

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0117381/combined


..if you don't want to know the movie end...
..Edward Norton being very much a 'vulnerable' and considered innocent but he was a split personality...

[Ammi]

...just going back over Brendan's testimony again and his recounting of the day Teresa was there/which was his general routine everyday.....taking the bus to school with his older brother Blaine, who he had to share a bedroom with..had mixed lessons of mainstream and SEN, never did any school activities or seemed to socialise, taking the bus home again... while his brother went off with friends on Halloween, Brendan couldn't even play his video game while his brother was making his social arrangements on the phone and that taking priority..(all he had was TV and his vid games/that was his 'escape' world outside of lessons he probably struggled with ..)..watching his mum go off with Scott T, Steven phoning him to go help him..(even phoning again because Brendan didn't come quickly enough..).. and asking him to clean the garage floor for him...

..a school failing him, a family failing him, a mother failing him, a police and judicial system failing him..and then the picture of him at the end which was taken in prison and he was smiling, the first time that I've seen him smile ...as heart-breaking and sad as it is, maybe prison is giving him something that he's never had before in his life, maybe his vulnerabilities in there is giving him back a caring environment/nurturing/a really sad thought for someone who should never be there...:sad:...

[DemolitionRed]

How far along are you all in this. I've just finished episode 6 and although I've got a hunch Steve isn't going to get off, I don't for a minute feel he's guilty. How many more do I need to watch to catch up with this discussion?

[GiRTh]

I'd watch it all but after six episodes there is still plenty you can comment on.

What do you think to Steven burning a cat in his fire pit or him running a woman off the road in his car and threatening her with a gun?

What do you think to Brendans three interrogations without counsel or parents etc.

[DemolitionRed]

I'd watch it all but after six episodes there is still plenty you can comment on.

What do you think to Steven burning a cat in his fire pit or him running a woman off the road in his car and threatening her with a gun?


My emotional reaction, especially for the cat, is that he's a complete monster but my logical side says, what he did as a 16 years old shouldn't cloud my judgement on this murder case, especially when there appears to be so much false evidence.


What do you think to Brendans three interrogations without counsel or parents etc.

Well this certainly would never happen in the UK and goes to show just how screwed up the American legal system is. Evidence was coerced out of Brendan, there's no doubt about that. Also, where the hell are the psychiatrists and psychologists? Its not unusual for people to make false statements and guilty pleas without being guilty.

The whole thing feels like a comedy of errors so far.

[GiRTh]

My emotional reaction, especially for the cat, is that he's a complete monster but my logical side says, what he did as a 16 years old shouldn't cloud my judgement on this murder case, especially when there appears to be so much false evidence.



Well this certainly would never happen in the UK and goes to show just how screwed up the American legal system is. Evidence was coerced out of Brendan, there's no doubt about that. Also, where the hell are the psychiatrists and psychologists? Its not unusual for people to make false statements and guilty pleas without being guilty.

The whole thing feels like a comedy of errors so far.Many would say the cat incident goes toward a sociopathic man who's crimes escalated as he got older. Avery seems like the kind of person who could have committed a rape and murder.

[GiRTh]

Also, the timeline of Averys compensation trial and the murder always seems too good to be true. To start the depositions in October of a case that he was almost certainly gonna win then he allegedly he rapes and murders someone before the month is even over does seem an unlikely thing for anyone to do.