What a Stink : The USA President is in the UK to tell us to stay in Europe

[arista]

Feck Me

Our PM should Fly out there and tell All Americans
to Vote For Trump.

[kirklancaster]

Feck Me

Our PM should Fly out there and tell All Americans
to Vote For Trump.

:clap1::clap1::clap1: Well said Arista - The USA has very strong ulterior motives for wanting us to remain in the fecked up EU.

[Kizzy]

Are we not going to mention the ulterior motives for wanting out?... Ok.

[Josy]

Has Obama not got a phone then

[kirklancaster]

Has Obama not got a phone then

:laugh: Excellent point Josy.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Just as bad as the bank of England Canadian doing the same thing. Obama did it with Scottish Independence. Its the ruling classes telling the lumpen proletariat what do do

shameful

[kirklancaster]

Just as bad as the bank of England Canadian doing the same thing. Obama did it with Scottish Independence. Its the ruling classes telling the lumpen proletariat what do do

shameful

It's a double shame, because it seems all the most vociferous self-proclaimed Left leaning members on here are supporting Cameron and The EU. Denmark is not the only state where something is rotten methinks. :laugh:

Whoops - I've had a warning and infraction for feck all today - you don't think this comment will get me another do you?

[JoshBB]

He can have an opinion but I don't think it'll affect British public opinion much. Having said that, I do want to stay in.

[kirklancaster]

He can have an opinion but I don't think it'll affect British public opinion much. Having said that, I do want to stay in.

Good for you Josh - and welcome back.

Why don't you post your reasons for wanting to remain in the EU on the Referendum thread. I'd be really and genuinely interested in reading them.

[JoshBB]

Good for you Josh - and welcome back.

Why don't you post your reasons for wanting to remain in the EU on the Referendum thread. I'd be really and genuinely interested in reading them.

Sure thing and thanks for the welcome back :)

[lostalex]

yea, because Brits NEVER make their thoughts on American politics known... lol

[Alf]

yea, because Brits NEVER make their thoughts on American politics known... lol
We have to, to keep our eye on you.

If we wasn't there to hold your hand, it'd be mayhem.

Brute needs brains behind it.

[Ithinkiloveyoutoo]

We should stay cause when ww3 breaks out because of Trump we'll need people on our side.

[kirklancaster]

yea, because Brits NEVER make their thoughts on American politics known... lol

:laugh: You know that I am pro-American Alex, but there are longstanding political reasons why the USA desires the UK to be in the EU.

This is very informative:

http://thebrexitdoor.com/2016/02/18/obamas-intervention-us-policy-in-europe/

[kirklancaster]

Are we not going to mention the ulterior motives for wanting out?... Ok.

Now - with great respect, and out of genuine confusion - will you please explain just what you mean so that I can respond?

I stated that the USA had ulterior motives for wanting us in the EU (and its predecessors) because they have.

This might enlighten you:

http://thebrexitdoor.com/2016/02/18/obamas-intervention-us-policy-in-europe/


But I do not know ANY possible ulterior motives that anyone could have for wanting a Brexit.

No one NEEDS an ulterior motive - there is a plethora of GENUINE reasons for wanting out.

[kirklancaster]

We should stay cause when ww3 breaks out because of Trump we'll need people on our side.

I'm sorry ITILY, but if WW3 did break out (GOD forbid) the main ally I want to see 'on our side' is the USA.

[Kizzy]

Now - with great respect, and out of genuine confusion - will you please explain just what you mean so that I can respond?

I stated that the USA had ulterior motives for wanting us in the EU (and its predecessors) because they have.

This might enlighten you:

http://thebrexitdoor.com/2016/02/18/obamas-intervention-us-policy-in-europe/


But I do not know ANY possible ulterior motives that anyone could have for wanting a Brexit.

No one NEEDS an ulterior motive - there is a plethora of GENUINE reasons for wanting out.

What is this a blog?
This guy states the US bailed us out post war and that had we handed back our dependencies then it would've been better than attempting to maintain our colonial stranglehold.
During the cold war years the US were at war with Vietnam there is no mention of this, but may be a reason they required extra funds, or the space race..
It is odd that as is happening today under the tories money is siphoned off under the guise of 'technology' never to be seen again.

The section surrounding Polaris is patchy, if the US were so determined to get us into Europe then why risk irking De Gaulle?

In essence all I see here is the absence of Nixon ( naturally) and the perfect storm that is required when tory and republican forces collide.

As a side note it was interesting to see that France had issues with British agricultural policy way back...

DeGaulle, for his part, had the issue of Agriculture at the centre of his reasoning for denying British entry,

[waterhog]

Feck Me

Our PM should Fly out there and tell All Americans
to Vote For Trump.




I got a way to send him back - I am going to write him some beautiful poetry :joker:

[joeysteele]

I personally would prefer Obama to be neutral publicly on this,naturally make his views known to the PM of course.
I also doubt that is all he is coming over for too.

Then again as Lostalex says,we get into USA issues and elections too.I dislike Trump but we have had people here calling for him to be banned from Britain.

Having said that, Obama knows we have USA companies in the UK wo in part are here for the full access they can get to the EU too.
So if such companies have suggested they prefer the UK staying in,then their President should be able to express his view.
After all the Indian PM inferred he wanted the UK to stay in the EU too as I believe maybe China has too.

For me personally,I am just glad he is another voice advocating remaining in.
I doubt his views however will change how people think on either side anyway as to their own intentions.

[bots]

I would prefer Obama keep his nose out of our affairs personally. He is trying to make his presidency have some value in its last months it seems. He has already been critical of France and the UK's handling of Libya when he refused to get involved at the time, and also critical of our slowness in Syria, when it was the will of the British parliament that we not get involved sooner. There is clearly no loved lost between him and Cameron, so he can't be sticking his oar in as a personal favour in support of Cameron, its purely to try and make himself relevant when his term is all but done.

[MTVN]

Should we not be interested in the opinion of our closest ally? We don't live in a bubble, this decision does not affect us only

[Kizzy]

Who actually wants us out, in terms of world leaders?

[Alf]

Isn't this the guy who couldn't be bothered to turn up for the Paris march after Charlie Hebdo?

There must be something in it for him this time, probably a plate of dinner at the Palace and the ass-licking hospitality that Cameron will give him.

[MTVN]

Who actually wants us out, in terms of world leaders?

No one, and its interesting that the Leavers go on about how the EU prevents us doing more business with India and China yet both of their leaders want us to stay in

[Black Dagger]

Oh he's finally said something worthwile :clap1:

[Tom4784]

It's a bit silly to compare Obama's thoughts on the EU to a hypothetical situation in which Cameron endorses a racist presidential candidate that would set the most powerful country in the world back 60 years.

I've not seen any good reasons to leave the EU, most of the arguments for an exit seem rather short sighted and reactionary to me.

[Tom4784]

Isn't this the guy who couldn't be bothered to turn up for the Paris march after Charlie Hebdo?

There must be something in it for him this time, probably a plate of dinner at the Palace and the ass-licking hospitality that Cameron will give him.

What does that have to do with anything?

[Alf]

This thread is about Barack Obama, My post was about Barack Obama.

Hopefully that clears up that little mystery.

[Tom4784]

This thread is about Barack Obama, My post was about Barack Obama.

Hopefully that clears up that little mystery.

Well no that clears up nothing, what does the Charlie Hebdo incident have to do with the referendum and why does it mean that Obama can't have an opinion on it?

Does it apply to everyone or just the people whose opinions you disagree with?

[Alf]

I apologise for causing upset and anger. it wasn't intended.

[arista]

Alf
I am Angry at this Out Going President
its not for his Gob.

Vested Interests at heart
of course

[Northern Monkey]

Meh.I doubt very much that it'll change anybodies mind.Brits will just think he should mind his own business tbh.

[arista]

Meh.I doubt very much that it'll change anybodies mind.Brits will just think he should mind his own business tbh.


In 100 days the vote can get close


Using a Outside American Leader
Stinks

[joeysteele]

He is not however the only leader of a Country to say his views as to the UK staying in or out.
I am sure his visit here is not purely for that purpose too.

He is not likely to make up anyone's minds or change the minds of those already made up,I see no problem with him saying what he thinks as to our future, in or out of the EU,we do also claim to have a 'special relationship' with the USA anyway.

Usually we at least listen to anyone we supposedly have a special relationship with, whether we take any notice is another matter.

[arista]

He is not however the only leader of a Country to say his views as to the UK staying in or out.
I am sure his visit here is not purely for that purpose too.

He is not likely to make up anyone's minds or change the minds of those already made up,I see no problem with him saying what he thinks as to our future, in or out of the EU,we do also claim to have a 'special relationship' with the USA anyway.

Usually we at least listen to anyone we supposedly have a special relationship with, whether we take any notice is another matter.


Yes but is to Corrupt.


We can still be Mates with USA
Out of EU

Thats my point

Better Fair Trading

[arista]

Fecker

Now Confirmed to the UK visit
next month.

ref: Ch5HD News


He will see the EU Outta The Queen.

and the EU inner The PM

[Kizzy]

Fecker

Now Confirmed to the UK visit
next month.

ref: Ch5HD News


He will see the EU Outta The Queen.

and the EU inner The PM

:nono: now now you know that was pinoccigove.

[arista]

The USA President
arrives in England this Friday

Europe Matters are not his say so.

[Alf]

If Obama believes it's best for us to be in the EU, then why don't the US join the Union too?

Why don't the US have there laws made elsewhere?
Why don't the US have a free movement for every member of a Union?

If you don't practice it, then don't preach it.

What an insult to the British people by the US saying we couldn't prosper without it.

[joeysteele]

As said many times before he is only one of many voices from other Countries around the World expressing a view as to the UK in the EU.
He is bound to have an interest in the continent of Europe showing coming together rather than splitting up in any way.

One of many voices is his on this issue from the USA to India and even including China and oddly enough all are saying the same, they would prefer to see the UK remain in the EU.

[arista]

Sure Joey
But he can Feck Off at this time
we have not had the Full TV debates
due next month , I think

[jennyjuniper]

Someone should tell him to clean up his own country's **** before he starts handing out advice to any other country.

[arista]

Someone should tell him to clean up his own country's **** before he starts handing out advice to any other country.


Bang On Right
Jenny

[the truth]

As said many times before he is only one of many voices from other Countries around the World expressing a view as to the UK in the EU.
He is bound to have an interest in the continent of Europe showing coming together rather than splitting up in any way.

One of many voices is his on this issue from the USA to India and even including China and oddly enough all are saying the same, they would prefer to see the UK remain in the EU.

why do you think the american government want uk not to rock the EU boat? do you relly think they care about us? or is it more to do with the long awaited TTIP american corporate takeover over of the EU>? Ebay and amazon have taken over the 2nd hand goods and delivery, theyre the biggest arms dealers in the world, theyve bought out our movie industry, theyve taken over our supermarkets much of our service industry , facebook , twitter worldwide , fast food garbage pushing the world over the diabetic and obese cliff...heck theyve even taken over our entire black market tickets across europe and even taxis are wiped out worldwide by uber

its a worldwide american corporate takeover and were just rolling over in the traffic

[joeysteele]

If he was coming to say we should leave I would be pretty sure that Chris Grayling, Boris Johnson,Michael Gove and the others would be hailing from the rooftops that the UKs closest ally even wanted us to leave.
To me the reaction to whatever he may say is a massive overreaction.

I doubt much of what he says will have much, if any even, impact on how people will really vote come June 23rd.
Still it mus be infuriating for the out organisation that not a single Nation that is seen as an ally or friend of the UK advocates the UK leaving the EU.

[DemolitionRed]

why do you think the american government want uk not to rock the EU boat? do you relly think they care about us? or is it more to do with the long awaited TTIP american corporate takeover over of the EU>? Ebay and amazon have taken over the 2nd hand goods and delivery, theyre the biggest arms dealers in the world, theyve bought out our movie industry, theyve taken over our supermarkets much of our service industry , facebook , twitter worldwide , fast food garbage pushing the world over the diabetic and obese cliff...heck theyve even taken over our entire black market tickets across europe and even taxis are wiped out worldwide by uber

its a worldwide american corporate takeover and were just rolling over in the traffic

Bingo!
It's amazing what you can sell to the masses if you label it "free trade".
Time we stopped being so bloody apathetic and woke up to the real goings on behind the EU deals on trade. Of course this is a better deal for America with their already giant international companies. TTIP is about America bypassing our irritating local regulations; its about creating a power vacuum which America will control and its about handing Europe over to the worst abuse from giant corporate power....When it comes to TTIP America is our enemy.

Lets not miss out on doing something about this > http://www.globalresearch.ca/mass-european-protest-against-ttip-corporate-takeover-eu-commission-sanctions-revolution-against-law/5486736

[DemolitionRed]

If he was coming to say we should leave I would be pretty sure that Chris Grayling, Boris Johnson,Michael Gove and the others would be hailing from the rooftops that the UKs closest ally even wanted us to leave.
To me the reaction to whatever he may say is a massive overreaction.

I doubt much of what he says will have much, if any even, impact on how people will really vote come June 23rd.
Still it mus be infuriating for the out organisation that not a single Nation that is seen as an ally or friend of the UK advocates the UK leaving the EU.

There have been mass protests in Europe over TTIP joey but unlike us, those countries haven't been given the choice of a referendum. The problem with TTIP is, most people don't understand the implications but a gradual awareness is starting to happen within Europe and people are starting to get angry http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/oct/18/prospect-ttip-deal-undermining-eu-food-standards-gmos

[joeysteele]

There have been mass protests in Europe over TTIP joey but unlike us, those countries haven't been given the choice of a referendum. The problem with TTIP is, most people don't understand the implications but a gradual awareness is starting to happen within Europe and people are starting to get angry http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/oct/18/prospect-ttip-deal-undermining-eu-food-standards-gmos

Well that is good and they will need to influence their govts if at the end of the negotiations somewhere around 1919/20, the deal is not acceptable.

I understand several EU nations can hold referenda on the issue but I may have understood that wrong but then it will still have to be then ratified by all Nations in the EU anyway.

If all the problems/worries/concerns cannot be erased as to the objections being raised to same then it is unlikely all EU nations will in fact end up ratifying it,which will in effect be needed to enact it anyway.
If we were top leave the EU, then we would have no say and not vote in it at all being agreed or not,yet it may be possible unless,the out organisation can solidly prove otherwise, that we may have to accept it,whether it ends up being a good or bad thing, even if out.

[DemolitionRed]

Well that is good and they will need to influence their govts if at the end of the negotiations somewhere around 1919/20, the deal is not acceptable.

I understand several EU nations can hold referenda on the issue but I may have understood that wrong but then it will still have to be then ratified by all Nations in the EU anyway.

If all the problems/worries/concerns cannot be erased as to the objections being raised to same then it is unlikely all EU nations will in fact end up ratifying it,which will in effect be needed to enact it anyway.
If we were top leave the EU, then we would have no say and not vote in it at all being agreed or not,yet it may be possible unless,the out organisation can solidly prove otherwise, that we may have to accept it,whether it ends up being a good or bad thing, even if out.

Cameron has certainly led the way when it comes to the TTIP and he's going to continue that push if we leave the EU but his position is going to be rocky because we, the citizens we will have far more influence in Westminster than we do in Europe.
Voting to remain in the EU is giving consent to the TTIP without any democratic scrutiny whatsoever. Voting for Brexit will at least ensure the TTIP undergoes democratic scrutiny through both Houses.

[joeysteele]

Cameron has certainly led the way when it comes to the TTIP and he's going to continue that push if we leave the EU but his position is going to be rocky because we, the citizens we will have far more influence in Westminster than we do in Europe.
Voting to remain in the EU is giving consent to the TTIP without any democratic scrutiny whatsoever. Voting for Brexit will at least ensure the TTIP undergoes democratic scrutiny through both Houses.

...but, we have in place in parliament a law that states any new treaties have to be put to the UK voters before they can be ratified by the PM of a UK govt.
This may well have to be put to the voters again if it is deemed new substantial change.

It is not even sure to be made of the EU set up and if as you say, other Nations are complaining then it is unlikely to get the consent of the other EU nations of who, all 27 if we leave or 28 if we say will have to agree to.

Are you that sure we will have that much scrutiny with being out, if this is deemed an issue from the EU that needs to be put to the voters before our govt can agree to ratify it,how will being out help.
There will be no need if out of the EU, for our govt to then ask the voters their opinion on it.

'If' it is ever accepted as part of the EU system and in the unlikely event then even gets the ratification of all the nations of the EU, how if we were out may we not be affected by it for certain.

Do you really believe,particularly with this present govt and indeed even Tony Blair's Labour one, that the voters feel we have influence there that much.
I certainly don't, just my thinking but this govt particularly rarely listens to anyone.

I would myself rather take the chance with this having to come to the voters in the UK again IF, and I stress if, the EU comes to any firm agreement on it for it to be put to all the nations of the EU,which would mean it would likely come to the voters of the UK in a referendum.

Outside the EU,then Westminster, if it was possible to be part of this, no way would the UK govt then ask the voters of the UK anything about it,there would be no need to.

If there are so many issues as to it now, it may never even become part of anything as to the EU in the end despite the lengthy negotiations anyway.
If they cannot get things better as to it.

[Kazanne]

I don't think a lot of people have clue what to do,but I definitely think some will vote to come out merely to piss Cameron off, which is really stupid as Britains future is all that should matter,people should get the facts , read them study them, then decide what they think would be best,and not just jump on any old bandwagon of hate.

[joeysteele]

I don't think a lot of people have clue what to do,but I definitely think some will vote to come out merely to piss Cameron off, which is really stupid as Britains future is all that should matter,people should get the facts , read them study them, then decide what they think would be best,and not just jump on any old bandwagon of hate.

Spot on Kazanne, a couple of weeks or so ago I actually heard a group of people on about this in the supermarket I go to,who were all saying they hadn't a clue as to anything on the EU but they were voting out because that should get rid of Cameron as PM.

It is really sad, and for me the worst part whatever the result, it is not likely to be a decision made from an informed position at all by a large number voting.
Even worse for those who have been put off the whole thing by the absolute shambles of the in and out campaigners.

You are right as to thinking carefully about the future,this is why I am talking in the main to those aged 17 and under now,after all it is their futures too,the UKs and of course ours we are voting on.

There is no turning back once we vote out, if that happens and the constitutional chaos I think there then will be after such a result, then that must badly affect our status, success and futures across the board.

[DemolitionRed]

@Joey

TTIP is a long series of trade agreements that have been or are going to be voted on by MEPs and not the general public. If a political majority like an agreement that agreement turns into a reality regardless of what European citizens want. TTIP is many different things and so it doesn’t have to be voted on as a whole and a lot of agreements have already been passed. The only ones presently slowing things down are Germany and the nationalist French but this is merely a blip in the grand scheme of things.

The entire thing is not only undemocratic but its cloaked in secrecy and the only information us grubby little citizens are privy to is from either leaked documents or what our media are told to tell us. As far as Camerons concerned, its all running along splendidly and he’s leading the way.

This is a bilateral agreement between the EU and the US so if we pull out of the EU, we are no longer part of that agreement. America is well aware that the EU would likely reject Britain being part of that agreement but America needs our (or at least Cameron’s) dedicated support. America needs us in this deal and that’s the only reason Obama is willing to spend time on our shores lying to us all about why its so important we remain in the EU. He doesn’t care about us, he doesn’t care about Europe but he hugely cares about the TTIP.

[DemolitionRed]

I think a lot of people will vote out because they believe it will sort out the immigrant problem. At the end of the day, most people decide on a personal level and at the moment there's a big majority who feel immigrants are a problem to them on a personal level.

If they'd done their homework, they would realize it won't make any difference to immigration.

[waterhog]

but the point is - we pay so many millions to be in this - and to then be told things.

we will be better off out of it I think.

[the truth]

@Joey

TTIP is a long series of trade agreements that have been or are going to be voted on by MEPs and not the general public. If a political majority like an agreement that agreement turns into a reality regardless of what European citizens want. TTIP is many different things and so it doesn’t have to be voted on as a whole and a lot of agreements have already been passed. The only ones presently slowing things down are Germany and the nationalist French but this is merely a blip in the grand scheme of things.

The entire thing is not only undemocratic but its cloaked in secrecy and the only information us grubby little citizens are privy to is from either leaked documents or what our media are told to tell us. As far as Camerons concerned, its all running along splendidly and he’s leading the way.

This is a bilateral agreement between the EU and the US so if we pull out of the EU, we are no longer part of that agreement. America is well aware that the EU would likely reject Britain being part of that agreement but America needs our (or at least Cameron’s) dedicated support. America needs us in this deal and that’s the only reason Obama is willing to spend time on our shores lying to us all about why its so important we remain in the EU. He doesn’t care about us, he doesn’t care about Europe but he hugely cares about the TTIP.

staying in the eu will be the end of democracy in europe and the beginning of ttip and the new world order corporate takeover

THIS IS THE BIGGEST REFERENDUM IN THE HISTORY OF EUROPE, MAYBE THE WORLD

[the truth]

Spot on Kazanne, a couple of weeks or so ago I actually heard a group of people on about this in the supermarket I go to,who were all saying they hadn't a clue as to anything on the EU but they were voting out because that should get rid of Cameron as PM.

It is really sad, and for me the worst part whatever the result, it is not likely to be a decision made from an informed position at all by a large number voting.
Even worse for those who have been put off the whole thing by the absolute shambles of the in and out campaigners.

You are right as to thinking carefully about the future,this is why I am talking in the main to those aged 17 and under now,after all it is their futures too,the UKs and of course ours we are voting on.

There is no turning back once we vote out, if that happens and the constitutional chaos I think there then will be after such a result, then that must badly affect our status, success and futures across the board.
staying in the eu will be the end of democracy in europe and the beginning of ttip and the new world order corporate takeover

THIS IS THE BIGGEST REFERENDUM IN THE HISTORY OF EUROPE, MAYBE THE WORLD

[joeysteele]

@Joey

TTIP is a long series of trade agreements that have been or are going to be voted on by MEPs and not the general public. If a political majority like an agreement that agreement turns into a reality regardless of what European citizens want. TTIP is many different things and so it doesn’t have to be voted on as a whole and a lot of agreements have already been passed. The only ones presently slowing things down are Germany and the nationalist French but this is merely a blip in the grand scheme of things.

The entire thing is not only undemocratic but its cloaked in secrecy and the only information us grubby little citizens are privy to is from either leaked documents or what our media are told to tell us. As far as Camerons concerned, its all running along splendidly and he’s leading the way.

This is a bilateral agreement between the EU and the US so if we pull out of the EU, we are no longer part of that agreement. America is well aware that the EU would likely reject Britain being part of that agreement but America needs our (or at least Cameron’s) dedicated support. America needs us in this deal and that’s the only reason Obama is willing to spend time on our shores lying to us all about why its so important we remain in the EU. He doesn’t care about us, he doesn’t care about Europe but he hugely cares about the TTIP.

I think we have to realise you and I are not going to agree on this.

It is still being negotiated and worked out, estimated to not reach
conclusion until likely 2019/2020 anyway.
There are loads of possible changes that may come into play for any final deal to be presented in that time.

What is the President lying about?
He has said it is a decisions for the voters but the USA would prefer us to stay in, that is the thrust of all he will be saying.
The Chinese and Indian leadership have said the same thing.

I think you will find that the TTIP deal has to be ratified by all the Nations of the EU.
Some will be able to put it to referendum too, we would more than certain be one that would do so and have to do so from the law put in place as to future changes in the EU set out by the coalition govt. between 2010 and 2015

I really don't see the problem myself and if there are any unsavoury elements to it, then it needing to be ratified by all the EU nations will be a pretty hard thing to achieve in my book.

Also,as was pointed out on Question time tonight, no one batted an eyelid when Obama said Scotland should remain part of the UK during the independence referendum.
He is just expressing a view and you,I and all others can ignore him or listen to him, agree with him or disagree with him but I think as a strong ally and friend of the UK, he has a right to express his view, especially as loads of other Nations have already too.
All advocating we remain in the EU too.

You may have decided out is best, that's fine, your choice and your right.
I remain an in person and still believe being at the top table of the EU is far better than being out with no knowledge of where things may go after coming out, and also having no control at all as to what conditions the EU can impose on us initially and then even change in the future too.

I would far rather be there in the thick of it,helping make decisions and also challenge decisions coming towards the UK too.
We can do that if in, we can do none of it out.

[joeysteele]

staying in the eu will be the end of democracy in europe and the beginning of ttip and the new world order corporate takeover

THIS IS THE BIGGEST REFERENDUM IN THE HISTORY OF EUROPE, MAYBE THE WORLD

Sorry, I do not agree at all with the first bit of your post.
However I respect your personal stance on it and I agree with your last part 100%,this is the biggest referendum in the history of Europe and that is why the risks of out need to be far more outlined as well as possible benefits.

We already know there is good and bad about being in the EU but in it we 'are' still a successful Nation and that should continue to be the case if we remain in..

Maybe too we could be still as successful if out, maybe even do better but I have seen nothing at all of substance to say we could do as well or do better out.
The absence of that surety makes leaving a dangerous risk to take for the UKs future in my view.
I know you will never agree with that in any way at all.

However that is just as equally I won't with you, while that substantiation as to the out scenario is non existent from the out organisations.

[the truth]

Sorry, I do not agree at all with the first bit of your post.
However I respect your personal stance on it and I agree with your last part 100%,this is the biggest referendum in the history of Europe and that is why the risks of out need to be far more outlined as well as possible benefits.

We already know there is good and bad about being in the EU but in it we 'are' still a successful Nation and that should continue to be the case if we remain in..

Maybe too we could be still as successful if out, maybe even do better but I have seen nothing at all of substance to say we could do as well or do better out.
The absence of that surety makes leaving a dangerous risk to take for the UKs future in my view.
I know you will never agree with that in any way at all.

However that is just as equally I won't with you, while that substantiation as to the out scenario is non existent from the out organisations.

The out cant substantiate as many claims and figures because the inners are the establishment and control all of the massive organisations that spoon feed the masses the FIGURES. The gap between rich and poor is greater in america than ever and thats whats coming our way. stating in will be the death of the individual.

Look around your home town, look at photos from the past 100 years....notice how the 100s of local traders and wonderful colourful shop fronts and even more colourful characters packed the streets in the old photos...the markets were glorious, the architecture unique and timeless....see how each decade these people and characters and splendour, nay glory....disappears.....see how so many of these wonderful people and places are wiped out by grotesque huge monolithic corporations ....are these supermarkets really better for us? world record obesity, world record diabetes, world record child obesity and lack of exercise

As we read up what all these wars in the last 50 years were about ? mass power mass control, sales of weapons to our enemies oil land resources for corporations, imposed dictatorships, the corruption is on a scale that is unreal to comprehend ....news corporations were numbered over 50 in the 1980s now there are only 6 that own 90% of the news.....only this week we discover that millions of cars are sold on a pack of lies to rip off the masses.....any fine now is miniscule compared to their sales...the sheer enormity of corporate corruption involved in the 2008 crash? who benefitted? the rich, who was hit? the poor of course, in america the poor lost everything and couldnt even afford healthcare...as we socialized the banks losses and the bankers kept their bonuses and of course none of them went to jail
the banks have not been broken up they have become bigger in size and fewer in numbers in monstrous monopolies

These corporations are now so powerful, wealthier than many nations, with politicians paid off, they are propped up by mind boggling rules that make it impossible for sme's to ever compete for a piece of the market again

Even the jumble sale market , the deliveries market , and ticket market has been corporatised across the globe with ebay paypal amazon and stubhub...all in cahoots with google who provide the searches. taking enormous ..percentages and enslaving the masses to work for their monolithic monoplies for peanuts. theyve even managed to wipe out the last bastion of the unqualified worker across the world, simple taxi driving
Theyve even got staff down as self employed now so paying minimum wages are negated by these corporations for millions of staff.

the EU is an unmitigated disaster.....it has failed in absolutely everything. Its insane central control has lead to this disaster...everynation bar germany and austria is poorer....many have gone bankrupt, Italy had its entire government replaced by the EU? Its just insane. at its heart is an insatiable desire to control everything and everyone. there is also a lot of petty anti american bigotry and sobbery which will of course achieve nothing and will ironically be wiped out with ttip when the american corporations march in to europe and cherry pick everything

[Alf]

He's here, Landed last night.

[kirklancaster]

@Joey

TTIP is a long series of trade agreements that have been or are going to be voted on by MEPs and not the general public. If a political majority like an agreement that agreement turns into a reality regardless of what European citizens want. TTIP is many different things and so it doesn’t have to be voted on as a whole and a lot of agreements have already been passed. The only ones presently slowing things down are Germany and the nationalist French but this is merely a blip in the grand scheme of things.

The entire thing is not only undemocratic but its cloaked in secrecy and the only information us grubby little citizens are privy to is from either leaked documents or what our media are told to tell us. As far as Camerons concerned, its all running along splendidly and he’s leading the way.

This is a bilateral agreement between the EU and the US so if we pull out of the EU, we are no longer part of that agreement. America is well aware that the EU would likely reject Britain being part of that agreement but America needs our (or at least Cameron’s) dedicated support. America needs us in this deal and that’s the only reason Obama is willing to spend time on our shores lying to us all about why its so important we remain in the EU. He doesn’t care about us, he doesn’t care about Europe but he hugely cares about the TTIP.

:clap1::clap1::clap1:

[kirklancaster]

why do you think the american government want uk not to rock the EU boat? do you relly think they care about us? or is it more to do with the long awaited TTIP american corporate takeover over of the EU>? Ebay and amazon have taken over the 2nd hand goods and delivery, theyre the biggest arms dealers in the world, theyve bought out our movie industry, theyve taken over our supermarkets much of our service industry , facebook , twitter worldwide , fast food garbage pushing the world over the diabetic and obese cliff...heck theyve even taken over our entire black market tickets across europe and even taxis are wiped out worldwide by uber

its a worldwide american corporate takeover and were just rolling over in the traffic

:clap1::clap1::clap1:

[joeysteele]

The out cant substantiate as many claims and figures because the inners are the establishment and control all of the massive organisations that spoon feed the masses the FIGURES. The gap between rich and poor is greater in america than ever and thats whats coming our way. stating in will be the death of the individual.

Look around your home town, look at photos from the past 100 years....notice how the 100s of local traders and wonderful colourful shop fronts and even more colourful characters packed the streets in the old photos...the markets were glorious, the architecture unique and timeless....see how each decade these people and characters and splendour, nay glory....disappears.....see how so many of these wonderful people and places are wiped out by grotesque huge monolithic corporations ....are these supermarkets really better for us? world record obesity, world record diabetes, world record child obesity and lack of exercise

As we read up what all these wars in the last 50 years were about ? mass power mass control, sales of weapons to our enemies oil land resources for corporations, imposed dictatorships, the corruption is on a scale that is unreal to comprehend ....news corporations were numbered over 50 in the 1980s now there are only 6 that own 90% of the news.....only this week we discover that millions of cars are sold on a pack of lies to rip off the masses.....any fine now is miniscule compared to their sales...the sheer enormity of corporate corruption involved in the 2008 crash? who benefitted? the rich, who was hit? the poor of course, in america the poor lost everything and couldnt even afford healthcare...as we socialized the banks losses and the bankers kept their bonuses and of course none of them went to jail
the banks have not been broken up they have become bigger in size and fewer in numbers in monstrous monopolies

These corporations are now so powerful, wealthier than many nations, with politicians paid off, they are propped up by mind boggling rules that make it impossible for sme's to ever compete for a piece of the market again

Even the jumble sale market , the deliveries market , and ticket market has been corporatised across the globe with ebay paypal amazon and stubhub...all in cahoots with google who provide the searches. taking enormous ..percentages and enslaving the masses to work for their monolithic monoplies for peanuts. theyve even managed to wipe out the last bastion of the unqualified worker across the world, simple taxi driving
Theyve even got staff down as self employed now so paying minimum wages are negated by these corporations for millions of staff.

the EU is an unmitigated disaster.....it has failed in absolutely everything. Its insane central control has lead to this disaster...everynation bar germany and austria is poorer....many have gone bankrupt, Italy had its entire government replaced by the EU? Its just insane. at its heart is an insatiable desire to control everything and everyone. there is also a lot of petty anti american bigotry and sobbery which will of course achieve nothing and will ironically be wiped out with ttip when the american corporations march in to europe and cherry pick everything

Nothing is 100% certain anywhere,however the outs must know what deals they will be wanting to get,they must know what conditions from the EU they would refuse to accept,they also need to tell the voters if they'd refuse any conditions what will be the consequences of that on ay more lucrative trading deal.

To seemingly themselves have no idea what out will come to fruition as, than that leaves a continuing massive hole in their credibility and therefore voting to leave.

TIPP is a bit of a possible red herring here in this debate,if it becomes part of the EU then we have a trading deal when out with the EU of course we would likely have to be affected with it, good or bad.
Unless the outs are now claiming we are to have nothing to do with the EU.which I am sure even they know that would be economical suicide.

TIPPs is still being discussed,it will have to be ratified by 'all' the EU nations if it even gets that far.
If there is opposition as strong as has been stated on here to it, I myself think ratification of it is more less likely then likely.
So TIPPS cannot be judged fully until all the talks ad negotiations are completed,I understand 2020 is the target date.
Then if any deal can be out to the EU nations it likely will, 'but' it will need ratifying by 'all' the EU nations anyway.
Of which we would still be a member if we vote to stay in and then actually get a say on TIPPS.
Out we will have no say and furthermore no say as to if in any way it could cross into our dealings with the EU,as we will have then no control over conditions being added or changed as to our dealings with the EU if out.

There is much wrong with the EU,I would love to go back to the drawing board on it on many issues,however you cannot go back to the drawing board with any influence if you leave something,inside the organisation you can, and if as you say other EU Nations are disgruntled, then handled rightly the UK could lead great change in the EU with many of those disgruntled Nations also joining the move to greater reform.

Out, we can do nothing but still accept what the EU expects of us for any trading deals,costs, tariffs and conditions.

Now, if the out organisations can show us in any way what deals we will get, not could get.
If they can get even an idea of costings and the conditions to be imposed.
If they can get any organisation or other Nation to say we should not be in the EU, then the out argument may be going somewhere.

We have heard form the out side the dismissal of us not being as secure out the EU by the in side,then along comes a hierarchy of NATO, which was held up as being more important than the EU as to security,yet NATO stated they would prefer the UK in the EU.
Someone is getting it badly wrong.

I ask again, is it the out side 'cannot' tell the voters what out 'will' be really like or is it they 'will not' tell the voters.
Either is bad as if they cannot,then whatever picture they paint, in the absence of even any guidelines, is then near irrelevant.
If they will not, then that has to mean the picture maybe is a much darker one.

I think. as you rightly say the out side have not got all the info, that is no excuse for not giving the voters any real info however,even just as things set up to begin deal talks with the EU and other Nations,of which the USA will be one too.

I think those in govt who have great doubts and issues as to the EU, who have info at hand,have looked very closely at what out is and the picture is not a good one,which is why, love or hate them, Cameron and Osborne are now firmly for in.

The out organisations,have the London Mayor, 3 major Cabinet Ministers and another ex Cabinet Minister,those people must have some info as to what is possible out yet have chosen only to dismiss any in argument while presenting nothing of note as to where we go, what we do, who with when and how once we voted to leave.

For me that is too big a risk so with all its faults I still say staying where we are, as a successful Nation in the EU,(despite my annoyances with the EU too), is the better option to ensure the future success and further stability of the UK.
You can disagree with all I say,as I do almost all that you have with full respect to you for your position on this.
However an argument has to be backed up with solid facts and particularly big change has to be shown to be for the better and not a risk in any way.

Having said all that,I think the result will be to leave, carried only by the far South of England which will then open up more instability and chaos across the UK.
I do however think leaving is the likely result at this point in time anyway.
People being so sick of the 'over the heads' stuff being thrown at them by both sides.
So you may well get your wish.

[the truth]

Nothing is 1005 certain anywhere,however the outs must know what deals they will be wanting to get,they must know what conditions from the EU they would refuse to accept,they also need to tell the voters if they'd refuse any conditions what will be the consequences of that on ay more lucrative trading deal.

To seemingly themselves have no idea what out will come to fruition as, than that leaves a continuing massive hole in their credibility and therefore voting to leave.

TIPP is a bit of a possible red herring here in this debate,if it becomes part of the EU then we have a trading deal when out with the EU of course we would likely have to be affected with it, good or bad.
Unless the outs are now claiming we are to have nothing to do with the EU.which I am sure even they know that would be economical suicide.

TIPPs is still being discussed,it will have to be ratified by 'all' the EU nations if it even gets that far.
If there is opposition as strong as has been stated on here to it, I myself think ratification of it is more less likely then likely.
So TIPPS cannot be judged fully until all the talks ad negotiations are completed,I understand 2020 is the target date.
Then if any deal can be out to the EU nations it likely will, 'but' it will need ratifying by 'all' the EU nations anyway.
Of which we would still be a member if we vote to stay in and then actually get a say on TIPPS.
Out we will have no say and furthermore no say as to if in any way it could cross into our dealings with the EU,as we will have then no control over conditions being added or changed as to our dealings with the EU if out.

There is much wrong with the EU,I would love to go back to the drawing board on it on many issues,however you cannot go back to the drawing board with any influence if you leave something,inside the organisation you can, and if as you say other EU Nations are disgruntled, then handled rightly the UK could lead great change in the EU with many of those disgruntled Nations also joining the move to greater reform.

Out, we can do nothing but still accept what the EU expects of us for any trading deals,costs, tariffs and conditions.

Now, if the out organisations can show us in any way what deals we will get, not could get.
If they can get even an idea of costings and the conditions to be imposed.
If they can get any organisation or other Nation to say we should not be in the EU, then the out argument may be going somewhere.

We have heard form the out side the dismissal of us not being as secure out the EU by the in side,then along comes a hierarchy of NATO, which was held up as being more important than the EU as to security,yet NATO stated they would prefer the UK in the EU.
Someone is getting it badly wrong.

I ask again, is it the out side 'cannot' tell the voters what out 'will' be really like or is it they 'will not' tell the voters.
Either is bad as if they cannot,then whatever picture they paint, in the absence of even any guidelines, is then near irrelevant.
If they will not, then that has to mean the picture maybe is a much darker one.

I think. as you rightly say the out side have not got all the info, that is no excuse for not giving the voters any real info however,even just as things set up to begin deal talks with the EU and other Nations,of which the USA will be one too.

I think those in govt who have great doubts and issues as to the EU, who have info at hand,have looked very closely at what out is and the picture is not a good one,which is why, love or hate them, Cameron and Osborne are now firmly for in.

The out organisations,have the London Mayor, 3 major Cabinet Ministers and another ex Cabinet Minister,those people must have some info as to what is possible out yet have chosen only to dismiss any in argument while presenting nothing of note as to where we go, what we do, who with when and how once we voted to leave.

For me that is too big a risk so with all its faults I still say staying where we are, as a successful Nation in the EU,(despite my annoyances with the EU too), is the better option to ensure the future success and further stability of the UK.
You can disagree with all I say,as I do almost all that you have with full respect to you for your position on this.
However an argument has to be backed up with solid facts and particularly big change has to be shown to be for the better and not a risk in any way.

Having said all that,I think the result will be to leave, carried only by the far South of England which will then open up more instability and chaos across the UK.
I do however think leaving is the likely result at this point in time anyway.
People being so sick of the 'over the heads' stuff being thrown at them by both sides.
So you may well get your wish.

makes you wonder how so many of the most successful countries do so well outside the EU....starting with switzerland and norway, usually rated as the best most successful and highest quality of life nations in the world....other awesome countries who govern themselves include canada, new zealand, australia, america, japan hong kong, oh and china arent too too bad either
they all run their own affairs and theyre the top nations in the world...the only EU nation at the top is of course germany, who control the entire monetary policies of the eu to suit their own needs and agenda ,the vast majority of the other eu nations have gone to hell in a handbasket

[bots]

Having said all that,I think the result will be to leave, carried only by the far South of England which will then open up more instability and chaos across the UK.
I do however think leaving is the likely result at this point in time anyway.
People being so sick of the 'over the heads' stuff being thrown at them by both sides.
So you may well get your wish.

I was just wondering how you get the impression that the south will vote out. I'm in the deep south, and those that I talk to are all for staying in. I'm not sure how London will vote however, as if there is a "patriotic" patch, that would be it.

[joeysteele]

I was just wondering how you get the impression that the south will vote out. I'm in the deep south, and those that I talk to are all for staying in. I'm not sure how London will vote however, as if there is a "patriotic" patch, that would be it.

Really, I gave up going to the South, the far South that is, it seemed very strongly and also determined to vote out,I think 6 out of every 10 people we mentioned the EU to, were in favour of coming out.
If you are finding different now then I am pleased as to that.

London is very different, I think London will massively vote to remain in the EU.

[the truth]

I was just wondering how you get the impression that the south will vote out. I'm in the deep south, and those that I talk to are all for staying in. I'm not sure how London will vote however, as if there is a "patriotic" patch, that would be it.

I think the poorer areas will be heavier brexitors as many feel the mass increase in population and immigration is hitting their jobs , wages , benefits, the economy and nhs waiting lists too..net immigration rose 3.7 million in the last 10 years...so the issue is very real..germany didnt allow open borders like us they employed a 7 year delay

[Kizzy]

With regard to TTIP, what govt in it's right mind would pass legislation to give corporations the right to sue them? It makes no sense :/

[joeysteele]

makes you wonder how so many of the most successful countries do so well outside the EU....starting with switzerland and norway, usually rated as the best most successful and highest quality of life nations in the world....other awesome countries who govern themselves include canada, new zealand, australia, america, japan hong kong, oh and china arent too too bad either
they all run their own affairs and theyre the top nations in the world...the only EU nation at the top is of course germany, who control the entire monetary policies of the eu to suit their own needs and agenda ,the vast majority of the other eu nations have gone to hell in a handbasket

That doesn't make me wonder at all, they have never been in the EU so have held onto all they had before rather than giving it up.
They have been able to hold their success as it was before the EU came into being.

They have not known any different.
However those Nations all want relations with the EU and some already have, even accepting the free movement of EU citizens to have trade and relations with the EU too.

It may well have been had we never joined the EEC in 1973 and suck to all we had in place before,we may have continued doing pretty good too.
However we tried since the early 60s to get into the EEC only eventually getting in by 1973.

for the last 40+ years we have chosen closer ties to mainland Europe and what we had before is likely not there in the way it was when we gave it all up to join the EEC and then agree treaties that brought into being the EU over time.
Now we are being asked by the out side, to try to step right back again, in a sort of hope of finding some, most or very unlikely all we had before, which frankly doesn't fill me with much confidence as to that at all.

I don't hear those Nations you mention, racing to say, they would jump at supporting the UK out of the EU now ad rushing to outline any new trading deals for the UK.
In fact all those Nations are saying the best place for the UK to be is remaining in the EU.

[the truth]

With regard to TTIP, what govt in it's right mind would pass legislation to give corporations the right to sue them? It makes no sense :/

its happened already across the globe....the eu will take backhanders all day long

[the truth]

That doesn't make me wonder at all, they have never been in the EU so have held onto all they had before rather than giving it up.
They have been able to hold their success as it was before the EU came into being.

They have not known any different.
However those Nations all want relations with the EU and some already have, even accepting the free movement of U citizens to have trade and relations with the EU too.

It may well have been had we never joined the EEC in 1973 and suck to all we had in place before,we may have continued doing pretty good too.
However we tried since the early 60s to get into the EEC only eventually getting in by 1973.

for the last 40+ years we have chosen closer ties to mainland Europe and what we had before is likely not there in the way it was when we gave it all up to join the EEC and then agree treaties that brought into being the EU over time.
Now we are being asked by the out side, to try to step right back again, in a sort of hope of finding some, most or very unlikely all we had before, which frankly doesn't fill me with much confidence as to that at all.

I don't hear those Nations you mention, racing to say, they would jump at supporting the UK out of the EU now ad rushing to outline any new trading deals for the UK.
In fact all those Nations are saying the best place for the UK to be is remaining in the EU.

because it suits THEIR agenda not ours

[joeysteele]

because it suits THEIR agenda not ours

How can you say they are suiting their own agendas,as you pointed out they are NOT in the EU.
These Nations you accuse of giving the UK false and bad advice to remain in,are the very Nations the 'out' side would argue that the UK will have to try to deal with more if out.

If those Nations were expecting to do more trade directly with us if we left the EU,why on earth, if they were even in any way willing to accommodate that, would they be advising the UK to remain in.

That would make no sense whatsoever, well maybe I am thick, because it makes no sense to me at all.

[the truth]

How can you say they are suiting their own agendas,as you pointed out they are NOT in the EU.
These Nations you accuse of giving the UK false and bad advice to remain in,are the very Nations the 'out' side would argue that the UK will have to try to deal with more if out.

If those Nations were expecting to do more trade directly with us if we left the EU,why on earth, if they were even in any way willing to accommodate that, would they be advising the UK to remain in.

That would make no sense whatsoever, well maybe I am thick, because it makes no sense to me at all.

eh? america want us in because as ive explained o you 101 times they want to carve up the EU for a corporate takeover
switzerland dont give a stuff if we are in or out as theyre doing fantastically and our fate is not their concern
the other voices are corporate leaders who have spent years aligned the eu for the worlds biggest ever corporate takeever

[joeysteele]

eh? america want us in because as ive explained o you 101 times they want to carve up the EU for a corporate takeover
switzerland dont give a stuff if we are in or out as theyre doing fantastically and our fate is not their concern
the other voices are corporate leaders who have spent years aligned the eu for the worlds biggest ever corporate takeever

Switzerland is not in the EU but accepts the free movement of EU citizens.
I cannot get your point but the one thing I do know is not one of those Nations you mentioned have said the UK would be better out of the EU.

I doubt the EU would allow the USA to carve up anything,if the present EU Members, including us, have to battle hard to win every change, I cannot see anyone else really achieving that much outside the EU.
No matter how big or powerful they may be.

The argument from out has been the EU has become far too insular and even dismisses the concerns of its members,now you are saying they are going to completely cave in to the USA,yet it will need the agreement of 'all' members of the EU to even also allow that.

I just do not see that coming about at all,sorry.no way.

[the truth]

Switzerland is not in the EU but accepts the free movement of EU citizens.
I cannot get your point but the one thing I do know is not one of those Nations you mentioned have said the UK would be better out of the EU.

I doubt the EU would allow the USA to carve up anything,if the present EU Members, including us, have to battle hard to win every change, I cannot see anyone else really achieving that much outside the EU.
No matter how big or powerful they may be.

The argument from out has been the EU has become far too insular and even dismisses the concerns of its members,now you are saying they are going to completely cave in to the USA,yet it will need the agreement of 'all' members of the EU to even also allow that.

I just do not see that coming about at all,sorry.no way.

its already happening, have you actually studied the ttip or the mass of cross trade deals between the eu and the usa? the vast majority of which are their corporations taking over European companies , towns and cities and suing any government who stands in their way. I really suggest you read up on this urgently

[DemolitionRed]

Switzerland is not in the EU but accepts the free movement of EU citizens.
I cannot get your point but the one thing I do know is not one of those Nations you mentioned have said the UK would be better out of the EU.

I doubt the EU would allow the USA to carve up anything,if the present EU Members, including us, have to battle hard to win every change, I cannot see anyone else really achieving that much outside the EU.
No matter how big or powerful they may be.

The argument from out has been the EU has become far too insular and even dismisses the concerns of its members,now you are saying they are going to completely cave in to the USA,yet it will need the agreement of 'all' members of the EU to even also allow that.

I just do not see that coming about at all,sorry.no way.

It is coming about and like TheTruth says, some of its already here. The Neo-liberals wouldn’t dare allow a British referendum on TTIP. Four years of hard work and secret negotiations with secret votes and the race to get this fast moving train finalized before Obama steps down in 2017. Other than a revolution, the British government will not be giving us the opportunity to stop this happening.

The EU have already agreed that it will change certain laws to accommodate American trade, in fact the EU appear all too eager to please the talking heads of Washington. We have agreed to relax our pesticide restrictions to allow American pesticides to be used across Europe. America still allows cancergenic chemicals and poisons that kill valuable wild life. We have agreed to relax our laws on lead being permitted in make-up and we have signed a deal saying we will abolish EU laws on the import of GM foods and growth hormone meats.

America has shown huge interest in buying up our public health and education and selling us the Americanized private model insurance package. The cost of medicines will rocket in price. The cost to our health doesn't even bare thinking about.

[the truth]

yep thats the magnificent eu usa ttip agreement for you enlsaved 500 odd million to these stinking corporate criminals ad infinitum

[arista]

The USA President is about to Go live
in 10 Downing Street.

I wish he would just Fly back To America
another Gun killing awaits "his sitting on his hands" attitude

[DemolitionRed]

Another thing is, in the interests of transnational capital TTIP will see EU corporation law being thrown onto the bonfire. This is presently happening in Canada because they foolishly went into a trade deal (FIPA) with China. Its nothing like as big and complex as TTIP but merely one chapter out of the same book.

As for China and India supporting the idea that we should remain in the EU, China and India recognize that the spillover effect of TTIP will be of huge benefit to them because inevitably it will open up a back door for trade within the US which is financially problematic for developing countries. The spillover effect will also benefit Britain providing we are not trapped within the TTIP.

[arista]

Live now
PM talks first

[Alf]

So he's using blackmail then?

[joeysteele]

TTIP is not expected to reach any conclusion to put to the EU Nations until likely 2020.

By then it will either be vastly modified and far less controversial for those who do not like parts of it,or it will be not acceptable at all, otherwise all the EU member Nations will never ratify it.
You Dem Red have said EU nations are protesting against it,so they will never ratify it and it will need to be ratified by 'all' the EU member Nations.

Maybe you and the truth are right and it is at present at this stage of negotiation not desirable but it has a long way to go before we get to the final hurdle for it for sure.
I would certainly not be going to make a decision based again on something that 'might' happen and which is not already doing so.
It may in the end prove to be something beneficial to all once the full extent of its make up is known at the 'end of the talks and negotiation' process.

Sorry to me this is a bit of a red herring,until the full final draft and result of negotiations and talks are known in full, it can really not be considered a good or bad thing until that time.
It will have to be right and beneficial to all, for all the 27 or 28 EU members,(depending on if we leave), to support ratifying it, that's a real certainty.
Then we may still be affected by it too if we do leave in some indirect way,so again no assurances we can avoid it if we leave anyway.

Anyway I for sure know both yours and the truths's stances on the unfinished negotiations as to TTIP and I think I have now made mine very clear too.
So its a case of wait and see really as to just what is the 'actual' final drafting of any 'possible', not 'certain' agreement as to it.

[arista]

The PM said
"Democracy"

What The Feck
The E. U. is far from a Democracy

[Alf]

I've turned off, just baloney from the pair of them.

[joeysteele]

Good to see and hear Boris Johnson being at his best 'UN- statesmanlike' behaviour

[the truth]

so either we do as were told by the americans or else theyll put us to the back of the queue

[arista]

so either we do as were told by the americans or else theyll put us to the back of the queue

Feck America

If we Vote Out
we are busy trading Worldwide

[DemolitionRed]

TTIP is not expected to reach any conclusion to put to the EU Nations until likely 2020.

By then it will either be vastly modified and far less controversial for those who do not like parts of it,or it will be not acceptable at all, otherwise all the EU member Nations will never ratify it.
You Dem Red have said EU nations are protesting against it,so they will never ratify it and it will need to be ratified by 'all' the EU member Nations.

Maybe you and the truth are right and it is at present at this stage of negotiation not desirable but it has a long way to go before we get to the final hurdle for it for sure.
I would certainly not be going to make a decision based again on something that 'might' happen and which is not already doing so.
It may in the end prove to be something beneficial to all once the full extent of its make up is known at the 'end of the talks and negotiation' process.

Sorry to me this is a bit of a red herring,until the full final draft and result of negotiations and talks are known in full, it can really not be considered a good or bad thing until that time.
It will have to be right and beneficial to all, for all the 27 or 28 EU members,(depending on if we leave), to support ratifying it, that's a real certainty.
Then we may still be affected by it too if we do leave in some indirect way,so again no assurances we can avoid it if we leave anyway.

Anyway I for sure know both yours and the truths's stances on the unfinished negotiations as to TTIP and I think I have now made mine very clear too.
So its a case of wait and see really as to just what is the 'actual' final drafting of any 'possible', not 'certain' agreement as to it.

Whilst I have a lot of respect for you Joey and whilst I support many of the things you support, to write another post explaining why we shouldn't be worried about something so fundamentally important and then finishing that post with a bolded "we will all have to wait and see", just feels like an attempt to belittle such an important subject.

That's fine ... debate over!

[joeysteele]

Feck America

If we Vote Out
we are busy trading Worldwide

Are we though, can the out side really guarantee us that all other Nations will be falling over themselves to give us really lucrative deals and bypassing the EU.
I am not so sure that will be the case.

Yes we will get trade deals but will they be the quickest and best deals possible after throwing away the status and all we have as to trade within the EU now if we choose to walk away from the EU after 43 years.

With all major Countries advising the UK to remain in the EU, why should they, if we dismiss that advice and vote to leave, then fall over themselves to assist us in a big way.

I have no confidence in that at all,the sight of the UK throwing away all it has at present in the EU is in my view, more likely to bring about dismay around the World as to our allies and those Nations friendly towards us.

Outside the EU,we will be just one Country seeking deals,the rest of the World is clamouring to get deals with the EU.

The glory days of before the EEC of the 50s and 60 s are gone, no way can we even hope to never mind get them back if we leave.
I cannot see the rest of the World being bothered what happens to the UK if they see it can act as irresponsibly in throwing away the massive trading deals it has now and many other doors opening in the EU too.

Yes, we will get trade deals but at what costings to the UK and what other conditions too that we will have to accept.

I think we will be seen as going backwards by the rest of the World except by Russia maybe.
I would certainly not and will not vote to risk all we have now for just a hope of past glory days,those days are well and truly gone in the cutthroat business of trading deals in the modern World I'm afraid.

No Country has said the UK leaving would open doors to massive trade deals with them out of the EU,none.
Why is that I wonder? more than likely because most want trading deals with the EU to increase,dealing with many Nations in one go and not just one.

[joeysteele]

Whilst I have a lot of respect for you Joey and whilst I support many of the things you support, to write another post explaining why we shouldn't be worried about something so fundamentally important and then finishing that post with a bolded "we will all have to wait and see", just feels like an attempt to belittle such an important subject.

That's fine ... debate over!



Hey, now just a minute here, I do not belittle anything.

How can a deal not yet finalised, not negotiated fully and not agreed which needs to be put eventually to all the EU nations not have to have the consideration of a wait and see,This may yet turn out to be something 'possibly' really beneficial to the UK in the end.

If all I have to do to debate is agree with you and others then sorry that is not debating but I still fail to see how proposals, and not finalised deals, can have anything other than a wait and see approach to be fair to all negotiating sides.

We will for sure need the USA more if we leave and sorry but I am not one of those anywhere in the UK who is a USA basher,I believe they often do have the UKs best interests in mind.
No one gets everything right which is why these talks and negotiations on TTIP were expected to be finalised in 2014 but now have no expectation of that until 2019 or even 2020.

Clearly loads of detail still be rejected,included and worked out.
Until I see that final presentation and finalised deal that is going to be put to the EU member Nations, that is when I will judge it, not on speculation and proposals stages only.

Fine however, debate over but sorry, I still think I am as right in my thinking as you think you are in yours too, but certainly as you wish,debating over with you then..

[arista]

The President is in a London Hall
taking Questions
from a fixed crowd


Live on SkyNewsHD and BBCNewsHD

[kirklancaster]

Demolition Red is 10,000% correct in what she maintains and her reasons are factual and irrefutable.

This thread has deviated somewhat into part general EU debate so I will not expound, but I will say that I am tired of the same old unsubstantiated views on here that seem to be allowed to pass as legitimate reasons for staying in the EU, but which are but mere recycled untrue propaganda from Meister Liar Tory Boy Dave and all the corrupt minions whom he has summoned to his cause - ALL who have vested interests in seeing the UK remain in the EU.

I CHALLENGE any REMAIN supporter on here to debate civilly and honestly in a 'Fact for Fact' debate on the EU Referendum thread or anywhere.

Facts and Statistics - NOT - Spin, Lies and Propaganda.

[kirklancaster]

The President is in a London Hall
taking Questions
from a fixed crowd


Live on SkyNewsHD and BBCNewsHD

This pathetic loser should take his corrupt ass back to the USA - a country which hates him more than we do.

[Suze]

This pathetic loser should take his corrupt ass back to the USA - a country which hates him more than we do.
:thumbs:

I agree Kirk

[Kizzy]

who are we to take as our confidants and allies in this... if not the EU or America? We cannot be a stand alone country.
Who are our friends?!!!

[Tom4784]

This pathetic loser should take his corrupt ass back to the USA - a country which hates him more than we do.

Obama's quite popular outside of the US, actually.

[the truth]

Obama's quite popular outside of the US, actually.
He used to be, he lost millions of friends yesterday, what he said was horrific

[Tom4784]

He used to be, he lost millions of friends yesterday, what he said was horrific

I don't blame him, we need to take a tough stance against the worrying amount of fools who want to leave EU because of 'immigrants, innit'.

We'll sink without the EU.

[arista]

I don't blame him, we need to take a tough stance against the worrying amount of fools who want to leave EU because of 'immigrants, innit'.

We'll sink without the EU.


We will Sink with it
Dezzy

[Tom4784]

We will Sink with it
Dezzy

Except that we'll be in a worse position without the EU, people only want to leave it because they want to blame immigrants for their problems. We'll be worse off if we go it alone.

Leaving the Eu would be a reactionary and stupidly shortsighted move. We rely on the EU market, it's dumb to leave when we won't have the support of our allies.

[arista]

Except that we'll be in a worse position without the EU, people only want to leave it because they want to blame immigrants for their problems. We'll be worse off if we go it alone.

Leaving the Eu would be a reactionary and stupidly shortsighted move. We rely on the EU market, it's dumb to leave when we won't have the support of our allies.


They will adjust.

[Tom4784]

They will adjust.

Why? They don't need us. We need them.

[arista]

Why? They don't need us. We need them.


Thats just not true
Spain exports Veg to us
its the big income

[DemolitionRed]

The TTIP is being created by people with a purpose and it’s a purpose which will hugely benefit the rich corporate fat cats who couldn’t give a siht about democracy and the damage these treaties will do to it. I’ve spent weeks reading as much information as I can get my hands on about these treaties (which I naively believed to be just some big trade deal) how its structured, how they don’t have to wait for the full ratification process to be completed before its implementation; what it will achieve and how it will re-mould our country to look more and more like America. I’ve read the good with the bad, the benefits, the hurdles and the undoubtable truths that these treaties are the end game of neo-liberalism. This is what it was all about, this is the cherry on the cake and I’ve never been so scared in my life.

Obamas dogmatic doctrine may convince a few because to some extent, Obama is looked upon as the ‘ruler of the world’ the ‘high priest’ if you like. I myself, right up until very recently, greatly admired his leadership but now I see him for what he is, just like Cameron, he’s another talking head that paves the way for transnational corporations and survival of the fittest at his citizens expense.

We can sit back and wait for the 11th hour in Westminster or we can get constructive by signing petitions, making ourselves more informed and raising awareness with others or even joining the protest groups. If I’m not part of the solution then I’m part of the problem; if too many of us are complacent then we must accept when the battle is lost.

[joeysteele]

who are we to take as our confidants and allies in this... if not the EU or America? We cannot be a stand alone country.
Who are our friends?!!!

What has upset the out organisations across the UK the most in my view,is the fact that the USA President has said what they 'will not' tell UK voters.
A really good friend tells you the bad you 'need' to hear as well as any good so I applaud Obama for saying what the out organisations are never going to probably to the UK voters.

That there is no long list of Countries waiting to bailout the UK on leaving the EU.
It is for the out side to show us with substantiation all the Countries that are heralding the UK out of the EU and who will make sure the UK gets the most lucrative deals with them too.
However in my view there are next to none.
Of course Countries will trade with the UK once out but not likely on the best deals possible as most of them will be trying to gain greater access to the EU markets and trade,which once the UK leaves the EU, the UK cannot then help deliver that access to them.

The president has put in clear words that even the USA, a solid ally of the UK, will not to the expense of gaining deals with the EU and therefore the EU Nations,look to help give the UK lucrative deals even with the USA.
There are no other Nations I have heard of who are saying all will be great with us if the UK leaves, that they then will do great trading deals with the UK.
None, and the reason is, that they want access to the EU trading machine too,of which the UK will be irrelevant as to, if it votes to leave.

Let the out organisations tell the voters, what Nations will welcome the UK out of the EU and give us the massive deals we may need, also at the same time tell us just what deal we will go for with the EU, that we have a realistic hope of getting and 'all' the conditions that will still have to apply to the UK if and when we do get a trade deal.

Obama as head of the USA, has blown a hole in the out organisations arguments as to other Countries that we can rely on to trade really lucratively with.
As Obama said, the UK could find itself at the back of the queue and I think he has spoken sense there and I am glad he put it so bluntly.

It is time the out organisations stopped dismissing all the in side says,whether its right or wrong,and much the in side has said is wrong and started to prove to us, such Nations are there and who they are and what they are saying too as to trading with the UK after an exit vote from the EU.

'In' doesn't have to prove anything, the EU is there we are in it,its successes and failures are there to see for all, the good and bad as to it too.
We have noting at all however of substance from the out organisations and it is time they informed voters with real facts and identified the Countries and all other organisations who may be backing them up,if they can find any..

While they are at it, they also need to totally get that £350million claim poster put right that has been termed as being misleading and get the right figures in place.
Also if they are advocating all the funds of any savings from the EU going to the NHS,they also need to then prove and say what they will do for the Farmers and other areas who get some of that funding back from the EU too.

[joeysteele]

We will Sink with it
Dezzy

We have been it from the start and haven't sunk, in fact far from it, we have prospered in the main and remained a successful Nation too.

[kirklancaster]

[QUOTE=joeysteele;8625983]"What has upset the out organisations across the UK the most in my view,is the fact that the USA President has said what they 'will not' tell UK voters".


What has upset the 'OUT' organisations, and the 'OUT' individuals, is that the summoning to his pro-EU cause, of a failed, mediocre US President, by David Cameron - a politician who has revealed himself to be one of THE most thoroughly unscrupulous, deceitful, and corrupt Prime Ministers in British history - is but yet another example of Cameron's arrogant presumption that he and his self-serving pro-EU, anti-Democratic elitist cronies, can FOOL all of the people all of the time.

Well, HE CANNOT.

The only people in the UK Cameron MAY be able to fool, are those 'undecided' EU Referendum voters who are 'bamboozled' by the task ahead of them because they are not particularly politically 'literate' - which is his 'target market'anyway.

He is despicable. But back to Obama;

Who in their right mind gives two flying fecks WHAT failed politician 'Barry' Obama thinks about what is best for the UK concerning the EU?

This is the US President who is not only judged by the most respected political commentators in the US as being 'mediocre' but also judged to be a spectacular failure and under achiever by a largely disgruntled American Electorate to boot - as the American Gallup poll shows below:
https://qph.is.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-ffc7da83cac0711e005c6e143010bca1?convert_to_webp=t rue

Just LOOK at the American electorate's rating of Obama in his second term - LOWER than Clinton, Reagan AND EVEN Bush.

Though for the purposes of this thread topic, it is the fact that a MASSIVE 61% of those polled deemed Obama a FAILURE WHEN IT CAME TO HIS HANDLING OF 'FOREIGN AFFAIRS' - yet here is this jerk-off travelling to the UK to LECTURE TO US WHAT IS BEST FOR US CONCERNING OUR FOREIGN AFFAIRS??????

Looking at the chart, and Obama's dismal 'Approval Rating' for his handling of the US Economy, then not only is Obama NOT qualified to offer us advice on Foreign Affairs, he is also NOT qualified to have any insight into the 'Economic' reasons for the UK to exit the corrupt and fiscally failed EU either.

Imigration and its effects - both medium and long term - on INTER-RACIAL relationships within the UK, is one of the key concerns for most of the UK electorate - NOT the ONLY concern, but one of them - and in this area too, Obama is the one of the LEAST QUALIFIED of foreign politicians to have any insight on whether our continued membership of the EU is detrimental on these issues or not, because under his presidency, RACIAL TENSIONS in the US have WORSENED:

https://qph.is.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-8aa73789b24199e5d82ad648f0024644?convert_to_webp=t rue

LOOK at how a massive 75% of BLACK AMERICANS confidently expected Obama's Presidency in 2009 to herald in a new and better era of 'Race Relations' then look at how that figure plummeted to JUST 4% in 2013 after 5 years of Obama's presidency!! and this survey was carried out WELL BEFORE the the Trayvon Martin trial and well before Ferguson - both of which will have compounded Black America's disenchantment with mediocre Obama.

"A really good friend tells you the bad you 'need' to hear as well as any good so I applaud Obama for saying what the out organisations are never going to probably to the UK voters."

'A really GOOD FRIEND'??? LOL.

I do not know about you, but MY friends do NOT THREATEN ME in an attempt to BULLY ME into making a decision which suits THEIR agenda, when that decision will affect the rest of my and my childrens lives.

Let us get this much STRAIGHT - Barrack OBAMA is a FRIEND of David Cameron's NOT the UK populace, and his reasons for intefering in our affairs on the EU are for the benefit of Cameron NOT the benefit of the UK populace.

He is trying to sway the people of the UK to voting to remain within the EU because THAT is to HIS benefit, to David Cameron's benefit and all their elitist cronies benefit - NOT to the benefit of the UK people.

THEY ALL DESIRE THE EU GRAVY TRAIN TO KEEP ON ROLLING BECAUSE IT BENEFITS THEM NOT US but the truth is, that NO ONE should take any notice of Barack Obama - he WILL NOT EVEN BE IN ANY POSITION OF POWER come Referendum time, so his threats are IMPOTENT and he has NOT the power to put the UK to the back of any queue - trade or otherwise.

[kirklancaster]

Why? They don't need us. We need them.

Can you qualify this claim Dezzy with FACTS and STATISTICS? because I am willing to do a U turn and support the 'REMAIN' campaign if just ONE 'Remain' supporter on here can show me with corroborating evidence that the EU has been beneficial for the UK, is being beneficial for the UK, and will be beneficial to the UK.

I have seen great pages of rambling rhetoric from 'EU-Remain' advocates which says NOTHING and is just regurgitated spin from Tory Boy Cameron and his 'Personal Vested Interest' club.

A case of those fooled trying to convince those who are NOT fooled to join them really.

[joeysteele]

The hypocrisy of the likes of Boris Johnson is unbelievable, for the out organisations had this president even indicated that the UK would be okay out of the EU as to securing other deals with other Nations including the USA,
They would be yelling from the rooftops, even the President of the USA thinks we could be better out of the EU.

They would have no problem with his stance in that scenario, as indeed although I am for in, I would not either.

The EU has been good for the UK as to security and working together on many issues that are considered global,things like working together on climate change issues too.
Its directives as to social policy which we eventually signed up to have helped the lowest pad and helped strongly as to health and safety and workers rights.
Not all perfect but most have been pretty good additions to the UK social structure.

Also a fact after all the decades of being in the EEC and then signing up too to the EU as it is now, the UK has remained the successful Nation it has been from the 80s onwards,working together when needed and being able to combat difficulties as to the recession and the unexpected and worst crisis for many a generation when the global financial crisis hit in 2007/8.

We are successful in the EU, that is the simple fact that needs to be taken on board, now really it is the out organisations who are calling for change, it is for them to guarantee the UK can hold that success it already has in the EU, if it leaves, not vice versa.
The UK should be able to be guaranteed before it makes any change on this scale for its future,that the out side has done all its homework, and knows for certain what can be in place after we leave.

Otherwise we take the UK down a road of uncertainty for possibly years, even to just get any new deal with the EU, never mind anywhere else..
Really, are the out expecting anyone to believe that likely years of uncertainty are not going to hit the UKs economy, stability and investment from other Nations
Of course it must, unless they have a blueprint they can present to voters with all the names of Nations and their leaders who are saying yes the UK can do great with us out of the EU.

So we are a successful Nation in the EU, have been since we joined and remain so,that is a fact.
Now the 'out' organisations being the ones who want to change all that, have to tell the voters all the facts they have, and any/the support from around the world for their position,and from any of the major organisations around the World from financial institutions to even the likes of NATO.
That is 'if' they have any of note at all.

They are the ones that have to remove the only thing that is evident in this campaign, which is that the only thing 'certain' about leaving is there is a likely long period of endless uncertainties as to the UKS future.

The EU has been good for the UK in that no matter what has been thrown at Europe, the rest of the world and the UK,in the EU the UK has been, is and remains now a successful Nation.
In light of what Obama has said and what other major World leaders have indicated too,it is the 'out' side who have to tell the voters the truth and not distort figures, as on the £350million poster which is misleading as has been said.

I repeat again, either they cannot say the UK will be as successful or better out of the EU because they have no other major Nation or institution to back up that argument.
Or they 'will not', which for me is more dangerous and likely means they indeed know too, that things will be a lot harder and less successful for the UK out than in and will not say so.

That is what is unfolding around the World from Countries leaders and all other institutions,that the UK will have a harder road.
Obama has stated clearly how he sees it and where his Nations priorities will lie, he is now backed by Hilary Clinton his likely successor.

As a friend to the UK he has laid it on the line which is far more than the 'out' organisations have done so far by only spouting anti EU rhetoric and selective statistics and figures,of which one has been stated as being misleading by a statistics office.

The ones calling for change, have to be the ones to prove things 'can and will' be sustained,they should really be able to say with substantiated evidence it will be bettered as to the UK remaining successful out.

We are successful in the EU, to change that for uncertainty and no evidence whatsoever of better success,well that needs very careful thought especially when there is no turning back once we vote to leave.
Even moreso if we now still voted to leave after the evidence of all the institutions and other Nations leaders advice on this issue as to how they hope to see the UKs place and status in the World.
To have dismissed all those Nations and organisations concerns and advice and then vote to leave would hardly lkely inspire cooperation from them afterwards.

Those who want the change then, have to be the ones to prove change is for the better otherwise in lack of that proof,the most dangerous thing to do with any Nation and all its generations of its citizens that need to be successful, is make that change which will only open doors to likely long periods of uncertainty across the board.
In the EU, we are successful, ending as I started almost,we have been from joining, we are still and are at present and that is far more likely to continue to be the case in my view, in the EU and not out of it.


(My post, if even read,will probably be dismissed as some of the old 'in' EU rhetoric that has been said over and over again,that does not bother me, as it has more facts and more evidence as to the position from other Nations leaders,The USA President being only the latest one,also the support of financial institutions and then even on security from NATO too.
It contains far more facts and backing up than anything at all thus far presented to the UK voters by the out organisations who demand detailed info and facts from the 'in' side while giving none at all of substantiated detail themselves as to their position for the vital future of the UK).

[arista]

The President has now back tracked
saying it would take time - feck me , we know that.
Not back of the line.

Ref : Sunday Politics PM BBC1

[the truth]

The hypocrisy of the likes of Boris Johnson is unbelievable, for the out organisations had this president even indicated that the UK would be okay out of the EU as to securing other deals with other Nations including the USA,
They would be yelling from the rooftops, even the President of the USA thinks we could be better out of the EU.

They would have no problem with his stance in that scenario, as indeed although I am for in, I would not either.

- That's not hypocrisy. They are arguing Obama is wrong, he and usa are total hypocites as theyd never cede an inch of their own sovereignty to anyone. obamas horrific threat to effectively put uk to the back of the queue in trade deals exposed him as a corporate lackey like Hilary clinton

The EU has been good for the UK as to security and working together on many issues that are considered global,things like working together on climate change issues too.

- There has been no fall in pollution? Why are the eu supported corporations to take over and build massive out of town retail parks across every town in Europe with no train network thus forcing people back into cars and polluting the environment even more? yes yet more hypocrisy duly ignored by the corporate news. why? because theyre all in bed together

Its directives as to social policy which we eventually signed up to have helped the lowest paid and helped strongly as to health and safety and workers rights.
Not all perfect but most have been pretty good additions to the UK social structure.

health and safety has destroyed sme's and given the corporations an even bigger monopoly and of course we are less safe and less healthy. its also a smart way to slap massive stealth taxes and fees and fines on the masses to fund the EU politicians

Also a fact after all the decades of being in the EEC and then signing up too to the EU as it is now, the UK has remained the successful Nation it has been from the 80s onwards,working together when needed and being able to combat difficulties as to the recession and the unexpected and worst crisis for many a generation when the global financial crisis hit in 2007/8.

lol the Only reason we survived is keeping out of the euro....most other eu nations have hit massive financial collapses or gone bankrupt

We are successful in the EU, that is the simple fact that needs to be taken on board, now really it is the out organisations who are calling for change, it is for them to guarantee the UK can hold that success it already has in the EU, if it leaves, not vice versa.

the EU is a disaster, that is what you need to take on board. the monetary policy is dictated by 1 country on ther other 30. that 1 nation does well the rest fall apart. 48% youth unemployment ? thank God we kept the pound.

The UK should be able to be guaranteed before it makes any change on this scale for its future,that the out side has done all its homework, and knows for certain what can be in place after we leave.


eh? no one knows for certain what is in place for years to come. look at osbournes endless missed targets. its simple though save ourselves billions on this corrupt back scratching unaccountable unelected unaccounted wasteful roll over to corporations and run our own affairs....our own laws and our own tariffs and we can react quicker and more efficiently to our own needs and affairs. that is a recipe for way more success....rathr than run every single thing past 500 million and 30 nations every time we want to change a light bulb

Otherwise we take the UK down a road of uncertainty for possibly years, even to just get any new deal with the EU, never mind anywhere else..
Really, are the out expecting anyone to believe that likely years of uncertainty are not going to hit the UKs economy, stability and investment from other Nations

Years of uncertainty lol more scaremongering. wed have years of certainty where we could and would make our own decisions specific to our own problems. just like Switzerland, just like the usa, Canada, Australia, japan, new Zealand etc etc and all the other most successful nations

Of course it must, unless they have a blueprint they can present to voters with all the names of Nations and their leaders who are saying yes the UK can do great with us out of the EU.

why would we want other leaders of other nations to decide what happens to the uk? its our nation? bizarre....do we ask our neighbours to run our affairs? I ask the own of a business in other countries what I should do with my own business?

So we are a successful Nation in the EU, have been since we joined and remain so,that is a fact.

no its not weve been up and down, we only survived better due to the pound , good education and some intelligence too

Now the 'out' organisations being the ones who want to change all that, have to tell the voters all the facts they have, and any/the support from around the world for their position,and from any of the major organisations around the World from financial institutions to even the likes of NATO.
That is 'if' they have any of note at all.

wed still be part of the un and nato g8 oecd and endless other worldwide organizations for green energy, climate change, human rights, animals rights etc that do infinitely more than the EU on all these matters

They are the ones that have to remove the only thing that is evident in this campaign, which is that the only thing 'certain' about leaving is there is a likely long period of endless uncertainties as to the UKS future.

the certainties are greater. and the benefits are greater, freedoms will come back including our own decision making process

The EU has been good for the UK in that no matter what has been thrown at Europe, the rest of the world and the UK,in the EU the UK has been, is and remains now a successful Nation.

you've repeated this non sentence 6 times and it still means nothing. we are successful because of the intelligence hard work ingenuity of the british people not a bunch of corrupt wasteful unelected politicians in brussells


In light of what Obama has said and what other major World leaders have indicated too,it is the 'out' side who have to tell the voters the truth and not distort figures, as on the £350million poster which is misleading as has been said.

its not misleading we are putting in billions more than we take out, fact.

I repeat again, either they cannot say the UK will be as successful or better out of the EU because they have no other major Nation or institution to back up that argument.

yes you repeat for the 7th time a line which is untrue and meaningless


Or they 'will not', which for me is more dangerous and likely means they indeed know too, that things will be a lot harder and less successful for the UK out than in and will not say so.

were way better off out. freedom to recruit the doctors and nurses and people outside the eu, our own deals, run and live by our own laws, raise tariffs as and when we need to, this is how successful economies work

That is what is unfolding around the World from Countries leaders and all other institutions,that the UK will have a harder road.
Obama has stated clearly how he sees it and where his Nations priorities will lie, he is now backed by Hilary Clinton his likely successor.

Hillary lol another corporate lackey whose entire political career is funded by massive corporations and who pay her $250,000 per speech to repeat the same speech lol

As a friend to the UK he has laid it on the line which is far more than the 'out' organisations have done so far by only spouting anti EU rhetoric and selective statistics and figures,of which one has been stated as being misleading by a statistics office.

no as a friend to corporate America he has threatened to blackmail british voters unless we give in to TTIP , THE EU and corporate takeovers

The ones calling for change, have to be the ones to prove things 'can and will' be sustained,they should really be able to say with substantiated evidence it will be bettered as to the UK remaining successful out.

The corporations control the news and the financial institutions, they control the figures. clearly they corrupt them at will. taking long term unemployed off the benefits in America and off the statistics for unemployment. the out campaign are heroes fighting this enormous tide of corrupt corporate power.
the facts do show how much better off the uk was by keeping the pound and ignoring the corporate brainwashing that we had to join the euro or else we would face ruin. the corporations were wrong then and theyre wrong now


We are successful in the EU, to change that for uncertainty and no evidence whatsoever of better success,well that needs very careful thought especially when there is no turning back once we vote to leave.

8th time now and 8th time its wrong and meaningless

Even moreso if we now still voted to leave after the evidence of all the institutions and other Nations leaders advice on this issue as to how they hope to see the UKs place and status in the World.


status? doesn't pay the bills. wed be massively flexible , nimble, responsive and unique as always. every single policy could be quicker more dynamic, long term wed be an awesome country to do business with...all the greatest nations are autonomous, independent, flexible , dynamic and control their own laws.
To have dismissed all those Nations and organisations concerns and advice and then vote to leave would hardly lkely inspire cooperation from them afterwards.

lol so give in to corprations and corporate lackeys threats of blackmail to make sure they ill be throw us a few crumbs in future. id rather stand on 1 ;leg than bow down on 2 knees.

Those who want the change then, have to be the ones to prove change is for the better otherwise in lack of that proof,the most dangerous thing to do with any Nation and all its generations of its citizens that need to be successful, is make that change which will only open doors to likely long periods of uncertainty across the board.

answered this already check out the difference between the uk economy and the Europeans who took the euro

In the EU, we are successful, ending as I started almost,we have been from joining, we are still and are at present and that is far more likely to continue to be the case in my view, in the EU and not out of it.


9th time you've said this and 9th time its wrong and meaningless. we are successful not because of the corrupt EU but in spite of it

(My post, if even read,will probably be dismissed as some of the old 'in' EU rhetoric that has been said over and over again,that does not bother me, as it has more facts and more evidence as to the position from other Nations leaders,The USA President being only the latest one,also the support of financial institutions and then even on security from NATO too.
It contains far more facts and backing up than anything at all thus far presented to the UK voters by the out organisations who demand detailed info and facts from the 'in' side while giving none at all of substantiated detail themselves as to their position for the vital future of the UK).

you offered no facts whatsoever. its one of the worst incorrect posts Ive ever read.

[the truth]

The President has now back tracked
saying it would take time - feck me , we know that.
Not back of the line.

Ref : Sunday Politics PM BBC1

his line back of the queue was a british term, americans never say queue, which proves the line was prepared and rehearsed to scare british voters

[arista]

his line back of the queue was a british term, americans never say queue, which proves the line was prepared and rehearsed to scare british voters


Of Course

[joeysteele]

Of Course

Not necessarily the USA President is an educated man,he would know line is not the term used in the UK.
He has travelled plenty to acquire the knowledge of other Countries and the way they converse.

Since he was speaking directly to the British citizenship he used the word they would use 'queue' not 'line', that's more like respect than being told what to do by our PM, if anyone actually really believes our PM could tell a USA President to do anything,let alone tell him how to talk.

[joeysteele]

you offered no facts whatsoever. its one of the worst incorrect posts Ive ever read.

Honestly your response is the most weakest one I have come across, and all you have done, as in fact near all you do, is dismiss all someone else says from the in side and still present no evidence of any back up for the out argument,from any financial institution, any current defence or security organisation,even NATO, and more to the point nothing at all from any other Country or its leaders in support of your argument for the UK leaving the EU.
By the way there are only 28 Nations in the EU not 30.

I honestly am at a loss as to why you even bother reading anything I say since all you can do is dismiss it totally with no factual comeback of your own and be rather rude in your analysis too..

When you can do that and name any institutions or other World leaders to back up and support your stance on the EU, I may listen.
All you can do is try to insult people, thankfully and hopefully that attitude is seemingly starting to lose the argument for the out side and I hope that continues to be the case.

All I said is fact,all happened ,most know it did, we haven't a clue still however as to what your out looks like at all, at present it would be like walking along a clifftop blindfold in my view if we vote to leave the EU.
Hopefully the tide has turned.

If all you can do is dismiss all anyone else says, and then insult their posts as nonsense or rubbish, then maybe you are in the wrong place, as you won't get people just agreeing with you all the time.
I am not bothered whether anyone agrees with me or not but I say what I believe is truth and fact.

Frankly however I couldn't care a jot as to what you think of my posts and what I say.
When and 'if' you can come back with substantiation of institutions and other World leaders as to your cause,then I will respond again but meantime really just don't bother to read my words and then end up wasting my time as well as yours.

[Tom4784]

Can you qualify this claim Dezzy with FACTS and STATISTICS? because I am willing to do a U turn and support the 'REMAIN' campaign if just ONE 'Remain' supporter on here can show me with corroborating evidence that the EU has been beneficial for the UK, is being beneficial for the UK, and will be beneficial to the UK.

I have seen great pages of rambling rhetoric from 'EU-Remain' advocates which says NOTHING and is just regurgitated spin from Tory Boy Cameron and his 'Personal Vested Interest' club.

A case of those fooled trying to convince those who are NOT fooled to join them really.

Common sense, dear.

We need the EU market, it'll survive without us but if we leave we'll basically be cutting off our nose to spite our face.

[kirklancaster]

you offered no facts whatsoever. its one of the worst incorrect posts Ive ever read.

Unfortunately, your comments above are sadly correct, Truth.

Most posts from the 'Remain' supporters on here are just repetitions of the same unsubstantiated, tired pro-EU propaganda and sweeping false statements without a grain of truth.

They remind me of the scene from The Wizard of Oz' where The Cowardly Lion keeps repeating the line; "I DO believe in spooks. I DO believe in spooks. I do I do I do".

/watch?v=epRku_qbkXM

[kirklancaster]

Common sense, dear.

We need the EU market, it'll survive without us but if we leave we'll basically be cutting off our nose to spite our face.

This is simply meaningless Dezzy, and does not constitute any type of answer to my question.

[joeysteele]

Unfortunately, your comments above are sadly correct, Truth.

Most posts from the 'Remain' supporters on here are just repetitions of the same unsubstantiated, tired pro-EU propaganda and sweeping false statements without a grain of truth.

They remind me of the scene from The Wizard of Oz' where The Cowardly Lion keeps repeating the line; "I DO believe in spooks. I DO believe in spooks. I do I do I do".

/watch?v=epRku_qbkXM

Unsubstantiated you say, surprised at you Kirk.
By the way that cowardly lion in wizard of oz got what he wanted and triumphed in the end.

Are you definitely saying there are institutions around the World who back the UK leaving, financial or otherwise. Pray enlighten us.

Are you saying that NATO has 'not' said it would be better for the UK to be in the EU.

Are you saying the USA, China and India and any other Nations who have expressed a view are saying the UK should leave the EU.

Are you saying the UK is not successful and are you then confidently predicting that the UK 'will' do the same or better out the EU for sure.

Instead of rubbishing what others say, enlighten us to who we will do deals with and what deals they have said they will even just look to give us.
Will we definitely not have to accept in part or full, free movement of EU citizens as Norway and Switzerland do to get a good deal from the EU.

Tell us what will be out of the EU,not what should or could be, but what will be.
That was always the challenge the out side was going to have and I admit it is a hard call for them to do.

If I could genuinely see a list of Nations who have said they definitely will give the UK really lucrative deals once out, if I could hear any financial institutions say the problems would be minimal once out and if I could know for sure a really good deal with the EU was possible and not to have still the free movement of EU citizens.
Then even I would consider voting out if that was presented and was able to be proven.

Are you saying my substantiated fact that none have outlined that scenario is totally wrong.

Are you also really still standing by the £350 million a week figure that the out says we would save and that whole £350milllion could go to the NHS,
Are you really saying I am wrong in that we don't even send the rebate to the EU,which is already gone and used up anyway by the govt.
That the EU does not return funding to regions, businesses and Farmers and that if we leave the EU that will stop.
Are you you still then saying it is actually £350milllion we save a week, when in reality it is more like £175million.
If that even £350million less the rebate would be going to the NHS, are you then saying the funding back from the EU that goes to businesses, farmers and regions will not now be going to those areas because the savings are all pledged to the NHS.
Where then will the money for businesses,regions and farmer be got from after that?

I think you need to assess your own facts before you tell others they are making unsubstantiated claims with respect.
Just why on earth can the out side not just stop rubbishing what anyone they disagree with says and simply answer the repeated questions I have been asking on here and endlessly too off here to the out organisations for weeks now.
Where and who exactly are the Nations who are definitely there and who have said they will give the UK really good trading deals if the UK leaves the EU.
Where are the institutions supporting the out side that the UK will do as well or better if we leave the EU.
Where and when have the EU hierarchy ever stated they would give the UK a good trading terms deal and not expect the free movement of EU citizens to still take place.

While I concede and have done all through, that the in side is wrong in this campaign too and that they have over exaggerated figures.
I put what is obvious to me and many others as to how I see the EU.

Yet you say I am wrong so please then enlighten us with proper backed up answers to the questions I asked above.in the questions I put to you above.

Because quite honestly it astounds me you cannot.
That worries me as to why the out side will not, if they are the only ones totally right in this and everyone else in the UK who wants to stay in and almost everyone else around the world who is expressing a view on this when asked,is totally wrong.

Yes I am likely rambling to you again but then I have read a lot of possible rambling on this thread and not just from the in side either.

[the truth]

Unsubstantiated you say, surprised at you Kirk.
By the way that cowardly lion in wizard of oz got what he wanted and triumphed in the end.

Are you definitely saying there are institutions around the World who back the UK leaving, financial or otherwise. Pray enlighten us.

Are you saying that NATO has 'not' said it would be better for the UK to be in the EU.

Are you saying the USA, China and India and any other Nations who have expressed a view are saying the UK should leave the EU.

Are you saying the UK is not successful and are you then confidently predicting that the UK 'will' do the same or better out the EU for sure.

Instead of rubbishing what others say, enlighten us to who we will do deals with and what deals they have said they will even just look to give us.
Will we definitely not have to accept in part or full, free movement of EU citizens as Norway and Switzerland do to get a good deal from the EU.

Tell us what will be out of the EU,not what should or could be, but what will be.
That was always the challenge the out side was going to have and I admit it is a hard call for them to do.

If I could genuinely see a list of Nations who have said they definitely will give the UK really lucrative deals once out, if I could hear any financial institutions say the problems would be minimal once out and if I could know for sure a really good deal with the EU was possible and not to have still the free movement of EU citizens.
Then even I would consider voting out if that was presented and was able to be proven.

Are you saying my substantiated fact that none have outlined that scenario is totally wrong.

Are you also really still standing by the £350 million a week figure that the out says we would save and that whole £350milllion could go to the NHS,
Are you really saying I am wrong in that we don't even send the rebate to the EU,which is already gone and used up anyway by the govt.
That the EU does not return funding to regions, businesses and Farmers and that if we leave the EU that will stop.
Are you you still then saying it is actually £350milllion we save a week, when in reality it is more like £175million.
If that even £350million less the rebate would be going to the NHS, are you then saying the funding back from the EU that goes to businesses, farmers and regions will not now be going to those areas because the savings are all pledged to the NHS.
Where then will the money for businesses,regions and farmer be got from after that?

I think you need to assess your own facts before you tell others they are making unsubstantiated claims with respect.
Just why on earth can the out side not just stop rubbishing what anyone they disagree with says and simply answer the repeated questions I have been asking on here and endlessly too off here to the out organisations for weeks now.
Where and who exactly are the Nations who are definitely there and who have said they will give the UK really good trading deals if the UK leaves the EU.
Where are the institutions supporting the out side that the UK will do as well or better if we leave the EU.
Where and when have the EU hierarchy ever stated they would give the UK a good trading terms deal and not expect the free movement of EU citizens to still take place.

While I concede and have done all through, that the in side is wrong in this campaign too and that they have over exaggerated figures.
I put what is obvious to me and many others as to how I see the EU.

Yet you say I am wrong so please then enlighten us with proper backed up answers to the questions I asked above.in the questions I put to you above.

Because quite honestly it astounds me you cannot.
That worries me as to why the out side will not, if they are the only ones totally right in this and everyone else in the UK who wants to stay in and almost everyone else around the world who is expressing a view on this when asked,is totally wrong.

Yes I am likely rambling to you again but then I have read a lot of possible rambling on this thread and not from the in side either.

I destroyed your thread but you ignored what I had to say.
every single area of the EU policy has failed. the facts show all time record unemployment levels, all time record debts, all time record imbalance of wealth between the rich and poor nations and between the elite and the rest. all time record corporate power.
the uk has done way better in all key areas because we kept the pund, all these are FACTS you choose to ignore, because you want to enslave the uk to elite corporations, elite wealthiest 1% and to corrupt unelected unaccountable European politicians ...tony benn would be turning in his grave

[DemolitionRed]

Here is a full 6 stage summary of Flexit http://www.eureferendum.com/documents/flexcit.pdf

[Tom4784]

This is simply meaningless Dezzy, and does not constitute any type of answer to my question.

I've answered your question, if you're going to be petty and reject my answer then that's no concern to me. I don't care for or need your approval.

[joeysteele]

I destroyed your thread but you ignored what I had to say.
every single area of the EU policy has failed. the facts show all time record unemployment levels, all time record debts, all time record imbalance of wealth between the rich and poor nations and between the elite and the rest. all time record corporate power.
the uk has done way better in all key areas because we kept the pund, all these are FACTS you choose to ignore, because you want to enslave the uk to elite corporations, elite wealthiest 1% and to corrupt unelected unaccountable European politicians ...tony benn would be turning in his grave

I made a post not a thread actually.

I agree with you as to the euro,however I made no further response to you because I stand by all I said in that post and disagree with your put down of my opinion again.

I am voting in this referendum not just for myself but for the UK and its future generations too.
I have talked to a lot of people and I listen to them when they talk to me with respect unlike yourself.

I find the younger generation firmly for 'in',I see businesses overall for 'in', other World leaders of Nations we will need to deal with if out for 'in'.
I listened for what NATO would say, if they would say anything at all, they are for the UK 'in' too.
Even if out had 2 financial institutions come out leaving,then that would have given the out side some greater credibility.
My own Parents who I take a great deal of notice of in my life and decisions too, they both voted out in 1975 apparently,this time both are voting to stay in.
So I get a greater balance as to making my decision, I have talked endlessly at times to friends and family who want out of the EU and I listen but even they cannot name a single ally or friend of the UK who has said we would be better out the EU.
Neither can I and it seems even you and others as strong advocates of leaving the EU, cannot either.

Just going about insulting all who want in and putting them down while not presenting anything not backed up by the organisations and Nations I mentioned is not good enough in a campaign.

If I could be shown support for out by any major organisations around the World and the Nations that out say will deal with us, telling us same and saying what kind of deals they may give the UK.
I would listen, in the absence of all that I will not and I have no wish to debate with anyone disrespectful.

Yes you are right on the euro, however no way were we going to join it post 2001,thanks to Gordon Brown stopping Blair even considering it.
We will not be joining it, we will not be expected to join it.
So no problem for me there at all now.

You didn't destroy my post at all, you disrespectfully dismissed it and answered none of the points I raised in it as to questions I actually raised yet again, and now for the 10th time before you sarcastically put it.

Both sides are and have been playing this wrong,I find I get more annoyed with Boris Johnson once he starts having said that, I listened to Nigel Farage this morning on Murnaghan and found I was agreeing with him as to some points he made.

No one is all right and another all wrong.
I will talk and listen to anyone who is respectful but if all you can do is be disrespectful to other members and dismiss all anyone says who disagrees with you as nonsense then sorry, debate with you is not only impossible but unwise to even attempt,speaking only personally for myself as to that with the fullest respect.

[DemolitionRed]

I posted a very good link if you care to read it Joey. Its worded much better than I could give it justice and I don't want to post the entire article on here because its far too big but it answers a lot of questions re-Brexit.

[DemolitionRed]

I went to my local Labour party social on Friday and it was interesting listening to other left wing views regarding Brexit. The elders in the group tended to say things like, “I know there’s a lot wrong with the EU but I still think we should remain in”, whilst others, mainly the younger crowd, stated that, regardless of Corbyn, they wouldn’t be supporting the in campaign because the European Union goes against their left wing principles. It felt strange sitting with a bunch of left-wingers who were so divided. One guy said to me, “I feel almost embarrassed to be sitting with the out campaigners, after all, most people presume Brexit supporters are right wing immigrantphobes … but” he continued- “I’m a socialist at heart and I’ve always seen the EU as a racket for the rich and not compatible with my left wing vision of democracy.

it appears there is a real divide in Labour party thinking regarding the EU and Brexit.

[joeysteele]

Here is a full 6 stage summary of Flexit http://www.eureferendum.com/documents/flexcit.pdf

That is actually a good read but it can go 2 ways, I found myself thinking that bit sounds really good but also thinking a lot of the time, it makes the point for staying in as well due to time frames and probable uncertainties.

It does at least outline what could be 'hoped for' and what 'might' be the way and case for out.
Still unfortunately nothing that is backed up by major forces in the World.

I like that it warns against a botched up exit strategy as to leaving the EU and even adds that would be really bad for the UK.

Appreciate the posting of it, it hasn't altered my view,I still think that in is the best thing to do but at least it is something with an idea of out though sadly still with no real facts or backup.
Which to be very fair to it, was not its intention, it was just presenting a vision, an idea of what out could and might be but not for sure will be.

Interesting read however,I do admit that.

[joeysteele]

I went to my local Labour party social on Friday and it was interesting listening to other left wing views regarding Brexit. The elders in the group tended to say things like, “I know there’s a lot wrong with the EU but I still think we should remain in”, whilst others, mainly the younger crowd, stated that, regardless of Corbyn, they wouldn’t be supporting the in campaign because the European Union goes against their left wing principles. It felt strange sitting with a bunch of left-wingers who were so divided. One guy said to me, “I feel almost embarrassed to be sitting with the out campaigners, after all, most people presume Brexit supporters are right wing immigrantphobes … but” he continued- “I’m a socialist at heart and I’ve always seen the EU as a racket for the rich and not compatible with my left wing vision of democracy.

it appears there is a real divide in Labour party thinking regarding the EU and Brexit.

That's interesting because when I go to Labour party meetings and social gatherings, I find the younger members there, well younger than me at 24 :joker:,are solidly for in at the ones I go to.
In fact I have been out a lot with members younger than me, all campaigning for in.
Interesting though to learn that as to your experience too.

[MTVN]

Yes I would expect that the vast majority of Labour Leavers are older members who have retained their Euroscepticism from the 70s when the left of the party didn't want to join the EEC in the first place and the early 80s when withdrawing from it was official party policy

[the truth]

lot of young kids brainwashed by corbyns willy wonka promises of golden tickets for everyone, except a man like that can never ever pay for all his tickets

[the truth]

'Assault on societies'

Not everyone is enamoured by the potential agreement, with concerns the deal will drive down wages, weaken environmental protection and labour rights, and put the demands of big business before those of citizens.

John Hilary, executive director of campaign group War on Want, says: "TTIP is correctly understood not as a negotiation between two competing trading partners, but as an assault on European and US societies by transnational corporations seeking to remove regulatory barriers to their activities on both sides of the Atlantic."


Protests against TTIP in GermanyImage copyright Getty Images
Image caption
There is opposition to TTIP across Europe

Much of the opposition to TTIP in the UK and other EU countries including Germany, is focused on its provisions for "investor-state dispute settlement".

This procedure would allow companies to sue foreign governments over claims of unfair treatment and to be entitled to compensation.

Critics say the measures undermine the power of national governments to act in the interests of their citizens.

For example, they warn that tobacco giants could use the procedure to challenge restrictive regulations, citing a case in Australia, where Philip Morris Asia used a 1993 trade agreement with Hong Kong as the basis for a legal move to stop a change to packaging.

Poorer standards

In the UK, attention has focused on the potential impact on the NHS, with critics saying TTIP would allow private firms running NHS services to sue the government if it chose to return the services to the public sector.

Opponents have called for the NHS to be exempted from TTIP, arguing that other sectors have already secured exemptions, such as the French film industry.


NHS logoImage copyright Getty Images
Image caption
There are TTIP concerns around the NHS

The UK government says the details of how the dispute settlement would work are still under negotiation and claims there is no threat to the NHS.

Critics also worry about the impact on food standards, arguing that the EU has much stricter regulations on GM crops, pesticide use and food additives than the US.

They say the TTIP deal could open the EU market to cheaper products with poorer standards. They also warn that food giants could use investor-state dispute settlements to bully governments into dropping legislation to improve food standards.

Week of talks

Irrespective of how the UK population decides to vote on 23 June regarding EU membership, the TTIP ship sails on.

The next round of talks, the 13th, is due to open on Monday in New York and run until Friday.

[joeysteele]

I watched Andrew Neill on the Sunday Politics talking about TTIP, the general view of it was that its running into all sorts of problems and may well be likely not make it to even being asked to be ratified by the EU Nations.

Obviously Obama wants this achieved but now even in Germany,despite Merkel being in favour,protests as to it went on there too,it would seem in its present form and planning, it would be very unlikely that every EU member Country would vote it, and they will need to.
Even the Labour party here in the UK has strong reservations about it

Despite Obama's own hopes on it, things move slowly in the EU and this may not even come to fruition, as it stands at least.

[kirklancaster]

Here is a full 6 stage summary of Flexit http://www.eureferendum.com/documents/flexcit.pdf

Well done for posting this, but you beat me to this Red. I was about to incorporate the link and abridged sections of the report's contents in a response post.

Like you said about yourself in another post, I too have read thousands of pages from different articles on the EU and Richard North is one of the most intelligent, rational, and persuasive of 'Brexiteers' whom I have encountered.

I do feel though - as you will increasingly find now - that when it comes to Brexit on here, you can provide ALL the factual evidence, data and statistics, and logical propositions which the 'Out' camp demands, and it will either be totally ignored or paid 'lip-service' and still be dismissed, and will NOT change any 'remain' supporters mind.

I find it telling, that most 'Remain' supporters did not know about this plan nor what the 'Rotterdam Effect' is, yet some of those 'Remain' supporters are among the most fanatical.

[kirklancaster]

I've answered your question, if you're going to be petty and reject my answer then that's no concern to me. I don't care for or need your approval.

I am not the one being petty. Not for the first time on these EU threads, you made sweeping statements which are irrefutably false, and quite civilly, I asked if you could substantiate those false statements with facts - something which you cannot do, so you have elected to get confrontational and patronising instead.

Continue posting those sweeping falsehoods - you are convincing no one by them.

[Liberty4eva]

I haven't posted here in a long time but I saw the topic and had to comment about this. I get angry when the Pope comes over here (to the USA) and tells us building walls is a bad idea so I completely understand Brits being mad at Obama. I am embarrassed to have a president who lectures other countries on what they should do. Whether the UK stays in the EU or not has no effect on the people Obama is supposed to represent so as far as I am concerned it is none of his business.

If I were a Brit I would want to get out of the EU so I hope what Obama is telling UK citizens will backfire and people will vote to get out of the EU because of it.

[kirklancaster]

lot of young kids brainwashed by corbyns willy wonka promises of golden tickets for everyone, except a man like that can never ever pay for all his tickets

FORGET CORBYN, TRUTH - THIS SNAKE IS THE MOST DANGEROUS MAN IN THE UK WHEN IT COMES TO BRAINWASHING OUR CHILDREN INTO BECOMING EU SUPPORTERS

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/08/08/article-1205275-0200120400000578-358_468x382.jpg

Not only does ugly bastard Evan Davis preside over the most pro-EU biased programs within the pro-EU biased 'impartial' BBC, but he also annually chairs a conference for UK school children (sixth formers) called 'Your Future in Europe' where he gives the opening talk and answers questions about the EU from the children present.

[kirklancaster]

I haven't posted here in a long time but I saw the topic and had to comment about this. I get angry when the Pope comes over here (to the USA) and tells us building walls is a bad idea so I completely understand Brits being mad at Obama. I am embarrassed to have a president who lectures other countries on what they should do. Whether the UK stays in the EU or not has no effect on the people Obama is supposed to represent so as far as I am concerned it is none of his business.

If I were a Brit I would want to get out of the EU so I hope what Obama is telling UK citizens will backfire and people will vote to get out of the EU because of it.

:clap1::clap1::clap1: Hello Liberty4eva, Thank You, and I personally hope to see more posts from you.

[joeysteele]

All I will say is the out organisations have tried to argue there are Countries we can easily deal with as well as having some trade agreement with the EU if the UK leaves

One Country mentioned a few times was the USA, now for me I have no problem at all with the leader of the USA saying if that is really the case or not.
Which is what Obama has done.

Had he been saying something like, of course the USA is here and will give a good trading deal to the UK, his comments would have been very much welcomed I think by the out organisation.
The out organisation first brought the USA into the debate by citing it as one of the Nations we would easily get a trading deal with
Which has been proven to be untrue by the USA's current President and backed up by the person likely to succeed him too.

I see nothing wrong at all in the president putting that info and fact out there in the slightest.

I only wish we would hear from the out organisation any major Nations that are prepared to go on the record as stating clearly they will quickly give really 'good' trading deals to the UK if it votes to leave the EU.
Rather than just hoping many will and with no back up even on that hope.

[bots]

I don't think Obama should interfere in our politics personally. If there is information to be shared on trading etc, then it should come from the relevant department in the USA - not the president.

All that said, the reason nothing can be specified by the out campaigners on trading is that it takes years to set these trade deals up ... it could easily be more than a decade.

It will take at least 2 years for us to negotiate an exit from the EU let alone actually leave. Its not an on/off switch, it could be 2 decades before the UK is trading in its own right outside of europe

This is why, personally, I think its a bit of a non debate. The world can change its nature and economic climate in 6 months, so who the hell can say with any certainty in or out what will benefit us in 2 decades time. Its just not possible.

For me its about principles. Do we want to be part of a larger inclusive group, or do we want to be on our own. Everything else really doesn't matter.

[Livia]

Obama should withdraw his trunk immediately. He's perfectly willing to encourage us to do something he would never expect the American people to do. And bringing up the WW2 war dead was despicable. Maybe next time we want something from the US - a trade agreement after we leave the EU perhaps - we can remind him of the bodies of countless thousands of British troops that litter the Far East where they died helping the USA beat Japan.

[Tom4784]

I am not the one being petty. Not for the first time on these EU threads, you made sweeping statements which are irrefutably false, and quite civilly, I asked if you could substantiate those false statements with facts - something which you cannot do, so you have elected to get confrontational and patronising instead.

Continue posting those sweeping falsehoods - you are convincing no one by them.

You will refuse anything that doesn't support your opinion because you are a militant Brexit supporter. To call me petty is silly and nonsensical, I answered your question, but as usual, you refused it because you can't accept any answer that doesn't align with your own opinion.

I'm not interested in discussing this further with you, you are incapable of debate and I don't really care for anything you have to say on the matter.

[the truth]

All I will say is the out organisations have tried to argue there are Countries we can easily deal with as well as having some trade agreement with the EU if the UK leaves

One Country mentioned a few times was the USA, now for me I have no problem at all with the leader of the USA saying if that is really the case or not.
Which is what Obama has done.

Had he been saying something like, of course the USA is here and will give a good trading deal to the UK, his comments would have been very much welcomed I think by the out organisation.
The out organisation first brought the USA into the debate by citing it as one of the Nations we would easily get a trading deal with
Which has been proven to be untrue by the USA's current President and backed up by the person likely to succeed him too.

I see nothing wrong at all in the president putting that info and fact out there in the slightest.

I only wish we would hear from the out organisation any major Nations that are prepared to go on the record as stating clearly they will quickly give really 'good' trading deals to the UK if it votes to leave the EU.
Rather than just hoping many will and with no back up even on that hope.

ha Australia got trade deals going within 10 months, Obamas blackmail threats are irrelevant scaremongering as he will be gone in 8 months anyway. trump thinks the uk should leave and will of course trade with us....Clinton is a corporate lackey but even shes not stupid enough to stop trading with 1 of Americas top 10 importer/exporters

[joeysteele]

ha Australia got trade deals going within 10 months, Obamas blackmail threats are irrelevant scaremongering as he will be gone in 8 months anyway. trump thinks the uk should leave and will of course trade with us....Clinton is a corporate lackey but even shes not stupid enough to stop trading with 1 of Americas top 10 importer/exporters

I wouldn't be quoting Trump on anything myself, he seems to quickly change his mind to suit the weather.
He also I feel really sure and would put a bet on it that he will not win the presidency no matter who he runs against,'if' he even gets the republican party's presidential nomination in the first place.

I will listen to Hilary Clinton any day of the week over Trump.

Whatever the deal is that the USA managed to do in 10 months is not the deal the UK may be seeking with the USA.
For as long as the USA sees any opening to a fuller deal with the EU, as the President said, concerning the UK if we leave the EU,there's no quick fixes and a deal with the USA could take a long time.
That is his Country and he has stated his word on public record that there will be no quick deal at all if we leave the EU too.

Whatever you think, he has set that out very clearly,it would appear that from what we are hearing too that Hilary Clinton endorsed that, she did not just say, the UK would be better in the EU but there will be a fairly rapid deal with them if they left.
It is clear then she and Obama are at one on this and the drive to get a major deal done with the EU at the cost of other Nations.

That may be unsavoury to take,it may even be a less than good act from the USA towards the UK, however it does mean the 'out' claim of a quick deal with the USA, is as things stand, has been blown right out of the water and is in fact extremely unlikely and will be for some time.

Yes, Obama will be gone in around 8 months time, I am really sure Trump or no republican will be the next President and that a Democrat President more likely than not Hilary Clinton will be there for the next 4 years at least after Obama goes.
So no quick deal at all with the USA,so where next of any real standing as to trading deals that are good and needed ones?

[the truth]

I wouldn't be quoting Trump on anything myself, he seems to quickly change his mind to suit the weather.
He also I feel really sure and would put a bet on it that he will not win the presidency no matter who he runs against,'if' he even gets the republican party's presidential nomination in the first place.

I will listen to Hilary Clinton any day of the week over Trump.

Whatever the deal is that the USA managed to do in 10 months is not the deal the UK may be seeking with the USA.
For as along as the USA sees any opening to a fuller deal with the EU, as the President said, concerning the UK if we leave the EU,there's no quick fixes and a deal with the USA could take a long time.
That is his Country and he has stated his word on public record that there will be no quick deal at all if we leave the EU too.

Whatever you think, he has set that out very clearly,it would appear that from what we are hearing too that Hilary Clinton endorsed that, she did not just say, the UK would be better in the EU but there will be a fairly rapid deal with them if they left.
It is clear then she and Obama are at one on this and the drive to get a major deal done with the EU at the cost of other Nations.

That may be unsavoury to take,it may even be a less than good act from the USA towards the UK, however it does mean the 'out' claim of a quick deal with the USA, is as things stand, has been blown right out of the water and is in fact extremely unlikely and will be for some time.

Yes, Obama will be gone in around 8 months time, I am really sure Trump or no republican will be the next President and that a Democrat President more likely than not Hilary Clinton will be there for the next 4 years at least after Obama goes.
So no quick deal at all with the USA,so where next of any real standing as to trading deals that are good and needed ones?

why woud you place so much trust in a corporate lackey and lying warmonger like Clinton?

[billy123]

Still undecided myself but the work Obama has done for the exit vote is underestimated. That was a bad move by the in clan to think he would help. Patronising to say the least.

[the truth]

Still undecided myself but the work Obama has done for the exit vote is underestimated. That was a bad move by the in clan to think he would help. Patronising to say the least.

totally agree. They may think it was smart to threaten and intimidate the british public, it may even work for a few days....but on reflection it was one of the worst most heavy handed statements made by an American president to the brits ever. even Washington had more tact even though he indebted us for decades. hes now in Germany telling everyone how awesome the EU is and what a success it is? what planet is his speech writer from? I notice the pitiful bbc asked him no difficult questions on ttip, he all time record unemployment rates throughout Europe, the umpteen bankrupt nations, the absurd deal to bribe turkey into the eu to get rid of migrants, radical terrorism, the 3000 jihadis in the uk, the Schengen, etc etc

or the threat of ttip and corporate America taking over Europe including our own nhs

[joeysteele]

why woud you place so much trust in a corporate lackey and lying warmonger like Clinton?

I don't agree with your view as to how you see her, furthermore I will take heed of what she says because I firmly believe she will be the next president of the USA.
So I will listen to her and and anyone else on the World stage who says anything as to their view of or plans of dealings with the UK.

[Cherie]

Still undecided myself but the work Obama has done for the exit vote is underestimated. That was a bad move by the in clan to think he would help. Patronising to say the least.

Agree it was a major faux pax, I didn't like his bullying tone

[joeysteele]

Agree it was a major faux pax, I didn't like his bullying tone

Perhaps he would not have needed to say anything and/or as much had the 'out' organisations and the Cabinet Ministers in the 'out' campaign respectfully asked the USA first, if the UK could get a quick and really good trading deal if the UK left the EU, rather than them just assume, take it for granted and publicly state it as so in their campaign.

[Liberty4eva]

:clap1::clap1::clap1: Hello Liberty4eva, Thank You, and I personally hope to see more posts from you.

Thanks. I have a question: is this referendum binding? I mean, is it possible that the UK public would vote to leave and the government would just ignore it or just keep having referendums until you "got it right" like they did with EU Constitution?

Anyways, I earnestly hope that Britain will once again belong to the British. No one in the US still takes Obama seriously and he'll be gone in less than a year. So don't give him more attention than he deserves which is none. If the British stand up to Obama, the American people will respect you for it.

[bots]

The referendum is not binding. However, the government would be on a suicide mission if it chose to ignore the will of the people.

[DemolitionRed]

Thanks. I have a question: is this referendum binding? I mean, is it possible that the UK public would vote to leave and the government would just ignore it or just keep having referendums until you "got it right" like they did with EU Constitution?

Anyways, I earnestly hope that Britain will once again belong to the British. No one in the US still takes Obama seriously and he'll be gone in less than a year. So don't give him more attention than he deserves which is none. If the British stand up to Obama, the American people will respect you for it.

I don't know what the formal notice of withdrawal is. I know they were pushing for 28 days but whether that's been passed or amended? :conf: The reason the out campaigners wanted such a short notice period is to stop the government using a 'close vote' or 'lack of vote' for a referendum withdrawal.

[joeysteele]

The referendum is not binding. However, the government would be on a suicide mission if it chose to ignore the will of the people.

It is binding, this is not a information seeking exercise,the govt have clearly stated the people will decide in this referendum whether the UK remains in the EU or leaves.
The govt have handed the whole responsibility of the decision to stay or leave to the voters only.

It is no longer a decision then for govt, if we vote to stay we stay and if the vote is to leave we leave.
They have put no conditions on it even as to turnout,or majority or how many UK Nations vote for or against staying.

This is a fully binding referendum on the govt,no matter how close or how wide the result either way.

[the truth]

you cannot just vote you have to apply to vote, that stinks too, millions wont be aware of this

[lostalex]

why do you think the american government want uk not to rock the EU boat? do you relly think they care about us? or is it more to do with the long awaited TTIP american corporate takeover over of the EU>? Ebay and amazon have taken over the 2nd hand goods and delivery, theyre the biggest arms dealers in the world, theyve bought out our movie industry, theyve taken over our supermarkets much of our service industry , facebook , twitter worldwide , fast food garbage pushing the world over the diabetic and obese cliff...heck theyve even taken over our entire black market tickets across europe and even taxis are wiped out worldwide by uber

its a worldwide american corporate takeover and were just rolling over in the traffic

umm, you're welcome. :wavey:


It's just like the Scottish referendum... do you honestly think the votes matter? You are staying.

It's already decided. Get over it.

[lostalex]

Obama should withdraw his trunk immediately. He's perfectly willing to encourage us to do something he would never expect the American people to do. And bringing up the WW2 war dead was despicable. Maybe next time we want something from the US - a trade agreement after we leave the EU perhaps - we can remind him of the bodies of countless thousands of British troops that litter the Far East where they died helping the USA beat Japan.
The USA has been doing it for two centuries, and we even fought the most deadly war we've ever fought to keep all the states in our Union. The US individual states are just like individual EU countries. You make no sense saying the US would never accept those terms, because actually we do and have done for hundreds of years. and it has made us the most prosperous country in the world. the USA understands the benefits of keeping states in a union. We are the best evidence that the model works.

[the truth]

yes but usa didnt wait 3000 years to merge 30+ countries with 1000s of years of profoundly different languages, laws, currencies, resources, histories, cultures etc etc etc
the usa did it from the grass roots up with a tiny 6000 word constitution which worked....try our 70,000 one packed with more laws than any politician has ever managed to read let alone understand or implement

[joeysteele]

The USA has been doing it for two centuries, and we even fought the most deadly war we've ever fought to keep all the states in our Union. The US individual states are just like individual EU countries. You make no sense saying the US would never accept those terms, because actually we do and have done for hundreds of years. and it has made us the most prosperous country in the world. the USA understands the benefits of keeping states in a union. We are the best evidence that the model works.

Indeed, you are right,excellent points.

I only wish I could have the confidence you have the the UK will vote to stay Alex, I really think it will be a narrow vote to leave myself.
From all I am hearing and picking up.

[the truth]

Indeed, you are right,excellent points.

I only wish I could have the confidence you have the the UK will vote to stay Alex, I really think it will be a narrow vote to leave myself.
From all I am hearing and picking up.


Heres another report today about how horrific ttip would be for the UK

just a few titbits , this is the deal that the EU and USA are close to completing
the usa will takeover just when the eu is at its weakest on its knees over run with debts, bankruptcies, overpopulation and terrorism


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/ttip-uk-government-only-did-one-assessment-of-trade-deal-and-found-it-had-lots-of-risks-and-no-a6999646.html

This is what youre supporting?


Opponents say the deal could give corporations the power to sue governments when they pass regulation that could hit firms' profits through an international court called the Investor-State Dispute Settlement (ISDS).


READ MORE
TTIP: Obama says trade deal should be signed by the 'end of the year'
United Nations figures show US companies have made billions of dollars by suing other governments nearly 130 times in the past 15 years under similar free-trade agreements.

Details of the cases are often secret, but notorious precedents include tobacco giant Philip Morris suing Australia and Uruguay for putting health warnings on cigarette packets

[Livia]

The USA has been doing it for two centuries, and we even fought the most deadly war we've ever fought to keep all the states in our Union. The US individual states are just like individual EU countries. You make no sense saying the US would never accept those terms, because actually we do and have done for hundreds of years. and it has made us the most prosperous country in the world. the USA understands the benefits of keeping states in a union. We are the best evidence that the model works.

Your individual states are just that, states; states belonging to the same country. They are not separate countries each with hundreds, thousands of years of culture and history and a range of languages. It's not the same as this situation at all. If political decisions were made for the USA by Canada or by Mexico, and you all had to abide by them, you'd be opposed to that no doubt. But you think it's okay for the UK. The point is that it is not the business of Obama or anyone else who is not a British citizen.

Hi Alex.