If a tree falls in a forest

[Crimson Dynamo]

and no human or animal or insect ear is there to hear it does it make any noise?


Is the definition of a sound is its detection, rather than the physical phenomenon?


http://www.noisemademedoit.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Falling-Tree-by-Preston-Wessells-qpps_454384754558245.LG_.jpg440330crop.jpeg

:think:

[bots]

If you fart and no-one is around to hear it, did you still fart?

[billy123]

Yes of course it does because the sound compression waves would still hit other objects which has a physical affect on them.

[Kizzy]

Wot bob sed.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Yes of course it does because the sound compression waves would still hit other objects which has a physical affect on them.

for example?

[Crimson Dynamo]

waves are not sound, sound is how we interpret waves

[billy123]

for example?An air compession wave created by a falling tree exists regardless of a human being in range of it.
(I wont go into why you also said insects as most of them are deaf and use ground vibration as a means of detecting movement)
You can harp on about the definition of a sound as only being realized once an air compression wave strikes an eardrum but the reality is that it exists an air compression wave exists regardless and has a physical affect on its surroundings.

[Crimson Dynamo]

An air compession wave created by a falling tree exists regardless of a human being in range of it.
(I wont go into why you also said insects as most of them are deaf and use ground vibration as a means of detecting movement)
You can harp on about the definition of a sound as only being realized once an air compression wave strikes an eardrum but the reality is that it exists an air compression wave exists regardless and has a physical affect on its surroundings.

im no debating its physical effect by falling but does it make a sound, surely the answer must be no?

[billy123]

At the end of the day you have posted a question that has no right or wrong answer so it will be reet.

[DemolitionRed]

Numerous books have been written on the study of questions like this!

The question can be answered on more than one level. There is a simple practical answer which is, of course it makes a sound but then the smart ass phellogen comes up with all kinds of questions about perceptions.

There is a whole creationist discussion tackling arguments like, did the tree fall or was it created like that?.

[Livia]

Physics doesn't stop because there's no one around to witness it.

[bots]

Physics doesn't stop because there's no one around to witness it.

If it did, no one would now exist because we weren't around to hear it when the earth was formed :laugh:

[Livia]

If it did, no one would now exist because we weren't around to hear it when the earth was formed :laugh:

Jesus Christ, BOTS, I'm going to have to sit and think about that for a minute...

[user104658]

Physics doesn't stop because there's no one around to witness it.
Bewilderingly - there are actually some very current studies going on in theoretical physics that appear to show that there are aspects of existence that behave differently depending on whether or not they're being actively observed. Crazy stuff.

As for the "make a sound" question at its most basic level it's just semantics. The tree falling makes sound waves, so it depends on whether you call that effect itself "sound", or if you call the human brain's interpretation of those waves "sound". Most insects etc. actually perceive sound in a totally different way to mammals etc, feeling the vibrations (which we can also do, but to a much lesser extent) rather than actually "hearing" as we understand it.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Bewilderingly - there are actually some very current studies going on in theoretical physics that appear to show that there are aspects of existence that behave differently depending on whether or not they're being actively observed. Crazy stuff.

As for the "make a sound" question at its most basic level it's just semantics. The tree falling makes sound waves, so it depends on whether you call that effect itself "sound", or if you call the human brain's interpretation of those waves "sound". Most insects etc. actually perceive sound in a totally different way to mammals etc, feeling the vibrations (which we can also do, but to a much lesser extent) rather than actually "hearing" as we understand it.

tell that to an Earwig

:idc:

[Livia]

Bewilderingly - there are actually some very current studies going on in theoretical physics that appear to show that there are aspects of existence that behave differently depending on whether or not they're being actively observed. Crazy stuff.

As for the "make a sound" question at its most basic level it's just semantics. The tree falling makes sound waves, so it depends on whether you call that effect itself "sound", or if you call the human brain's interpretation of those waves "sound". Most insects etc. actually perceive sound in a totally different way to mammals etc, feeling the vibrations (which we can also do, but to a much lesser extent) rather than actually "hearing" as we understand it.

Erm... thanks.

[Crimson Dynamo]

i know that at the Emirates there is no actual sound


:fan:

[user104658]

Erm... thanks.
You're oso welcome.

[bots]

I guess there are many religious types that behave differently because they think God is watching :shrug:

[Anaesthesia]

The whole "does it make a sound" is due to semantics, and our crafted word for a vibration to hit our eardrums. If it ain't hitting our eardrums, it isn't sound as we would perceive it.

Does the wave have an impact on inanimate objects? Of course it does. But because inanimate objects don't have eardrums, it would be incorrect to describe it as a sound.

[smudgie]

Probably.
If I hear something drop/fall etc and hubby doesn't because he is deaf it doesn't mean it doesn't make a sound if he can't feel these waves etc.
Just means he is deaf to it all and I am not.:shrug:

[Anaesthesia]

Probably.
If I hear something drop/fall etc and hubby doesn't because he is deaf it doesn't mean it doesn't make a sound if he can't feel these waves etc.
Just means he is deaf to it all and I am not.:shrug:

Perfect example, Smudgie. It can only make a "sound" to those capable of hearing.

[Kizzy]

Next weeks conundrum, do bears sh*t in the woods?...

[user104658]

The whole "does it make a sound" is due to semantics, and our crafted word for a vibration to hit our eardrums. If it ain't hitting our eardrums, it isn't sound as we would perceive it.

Does the wave have an impact on inanimate objects? Of course it does. But because inanimate objects don't have eardrums, it would be incorrect to describe it as a sound.
Not necessarily, though, because there's nothing else you could describe it as. The vibrations that would be created are "sound waves", there's nothing else to call them. Sound waves are sound waves, in the same way that radio waves are radio waves, micro waves are micro waves, etc.

We can't perceive most of the wavelength spectrum at all (without electronic help) but each wave still is what it is. I don't see why that wouldn't apply to sound.

[user104658]

Next weeks conundrum, do bears sh*t in the woods?...
"Depends what kind of bear" is the only reasonable answer there. Short thread :(

[Anaesthesia]

Not necessarily, though, because there's nothing else you could describe it as. The vibrations that would be created are "sound waves", there's nothing else to call them. Sound waves are sound waves, in the same way that radio waves are radio waves, micro waves are micro waves, etc.

We can't perceive most of the wavelength spectrum at all (without electronic help) but each wave still is what it is. I don't see why that wouldn't apply to sound.

Because sound is a construct particular to our perception. If a tree falls in the woods and there is no human there, an insect wouldn't perceive it as sound because it has no idea of sound. It would perceive the physicality of the wave tho.

[user104658]

Because sound is a construct particular to our perception. If a tree falls in the woods and there is no human there, an insect wouldn't perceive it as sound because it has no idea of sound. It would perceive the physicality of the wave tho.

I'm not convinced, it's still a sound wave. An insect would also experience the physicality of a microwave (... Lol...) but in a very different way... The terms are really only to distinguish one from the other in our linguist understanding... So really the debate is about language, specifically descriptive language, full stop - rather than about perception.

An insect also has no concept of being an insect, for example.

[Parmy]

I hate to think how much cash has been wasted when i could have planted a microphone in a forrest for ten quid and some travel expenses.

[Marsh.]

If you fart and no-one is around to hear it, did you still fart?

But you're there to hear it, it's your fart. :hee:

[Liberty4eva]

Not enough information to make a decision. If there are birds, squirells, or deer or other wildlife around then it definitely made a sound as they all have ears. The person who first posed that question only says there is no one, meaning no people, around.

[Marsh.]

Not enough information to make a decision. If there are birds, squirells, or deer or other wildlife around then it definitely made a sound as they all have ears. The person who first posed that question only says there is no one, meaning no people, around.

and no human or animal or insect ear is there to hear it does it make any noise?

.

[Liberty4eva]

Marsh, then the answer is no. :smug:

[waterhog]

this thread is http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=These+Nuts+Song&&view=detail&mid=B5A14EFA170D9DB6523BB5A14EFA170D9DB6523B&FORM=VRDGAR

[Ashley.]

Reminds me of that thing, "if you attempt to fail and succeed in doing so, did you fail or succeed"

[Ashley.]

However let's not get into that as well

[Parmy]

Reminds me of that thing, "if you attempt to fail and succeed in doing so, did you fail or succeed"

easy. you succeed.

[Kizzy]

Yes lets Ashley, I like that one :)
It's like 'be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.' I'm a firm believer in ill will and positive thought, if you put something out there in the universe it's like placing an order on cosmic amazon... your package is on the way :)


The forest scenario.
I'd say it's a metaphor, even if you don't hear/see something, there may be repercussions?

[Jamie89]

easy. you succeed.

But if what you were attempting to do was fail, then by succeeding you've failed... oh but that would that would mean you've succeeded... which would mean you've failed... my head hurts :mad:

The tree still makes a sound though. If you put a tape recorder there and then check it for sound, it will be there :hee:

[Ashley.]

The forest scenario.
I'd say it's a metaphor, even if you don't hear/see something, there may be repercussions?

I quite like that actually, Kizzy!

Or alternatively, things can't hurt you if you choose to ignore them? :shrug:

[Kizzy]

I quite like that actually, Kizzy!

Or alternatively, things can't hurt you if you choose to ignore them? :shrug:

That's called repression and trust me that hurts :)

[Ashley.]

That's called repression and trust me that hurts :)

Hm, no I don't think I would go that far. Simply, life is better for everyone if you don't let things bother you (such as a tree falling in the woods :laugh:)

[Kizzy]

Yes, if it was small then I'd say ignore it and move on... but a tree? A tree is big and needs addressing.

Address your trees people! :)

[Crimson Dynamo]

people with tinnitus hear high pitched sound with no compression waves or frequency

[Ashley.]

people with tinnitus hear high pitched sound with no compression waves or frequency

Pitch or sound? :think:

[Crimson Dynamo]

Pitch or sound? :think:

i think they hear a ringing noise but i have heard others describe it as a high pitched noise. Obviously its not a sound as such

[bots]

i think they hear a ringing noise but i have heard others describe it as a high pitched noise. Obviously its not a sound as such

As a sufferer, for me its like white noise with an element of ringing in it.